S05.E15: Try

[tennisgurl]

I feel like the Alexandrians have to have some more competent people somewhere. The only really competent person we have met is Aaron, and maybe his boyfriend, and kind of Deanna and her husband. And only kind of. . They must be doing something to still be standing

[paigow]

I thought it was funny that in the Houston Chronicle article about TWD they have nicknamed Nicholas "Joel Osteen".

I can only see brunette Danny Bonaduce .....

[NoWillToResist]

Well then this makes Jessie the most noble of the ASZ originals. She is sacrificing her health and welfare for the greater good of the community. She knows the value of not just a doctor but a surgeon, so she helps Sam to protect himself. While she takes the occasional beating for the good of the community.

 

You raise a very interesting issue here: is Jessie really noble? What other option does she have but to stay with her husband? She knows the leadership won't do shit against him. So, what can she do...leave? Take her two kids outside the wall and make owl sculptures to ward off walkers and predatory humans? Not sure that will be effective. :)

 

In a regular society, abused women often get criticized for staying because, theoretically, there are safer/better environments. But in the ZA? That's not the case. And - thus far - ASZ *is* the safer/better place. Jessie and her kids' chances of survival out on their own are laughably low, IMO.

 

The larger problem that I have with this abuse story is that, unless I've misunderstood, Pete is only abusive when he's drunk, so why in the everlovingfuck hasn't Jessie asked the leadership to make ASZ a dry community? Surely it can't be that difficult to persuade people that a sober doctor is a safer doctor so hey, maybe stop the booze supply? If people aren't willing to live in a peaceful, safe community without regular infusion of alcohol, they are welcome to take their chances outside the wall...

 

If Pete were simply a brute like Ed, it would be easier to understand the quandary they have with the only doctor beating his wife, but if he only beats her when he's drunk, the solution to that, IMO, is startlingly simple, yet, as far as I can tell, no one has even attempted it.

Edited March 27, 2015 by NoWillToResist

[chlban]

You raise a very interesting issue here: is Jessie really noble? What other option does she have but to stay with her husband? She knows the leadership won't do shit against him. So, what can she do...leave? Take her two kids outside the wall and make owl sculptures to ward off walkers and predatory humans? Not sure that will be effective. :)

 

In a regular society, abused women often get criticized for staying because, theoretically, there are safer/better environments. But in the ZA? That's not the case. And - thus far - ASZ *is* the safer/better place. Jessie and her kids' chances of survival out on their own are laughably low, IMO.

 

The larger problem that I have with this abuse story is that, unless I've misunderstood, Pete is only abusive when he's drunk, so why in the everlovingfuck hasn't Jessie asked the leadership to make ASZ a dry community? Surely it can't be that difficult to persuade people that a sober doctor is a safer doctor so hey, maybe stop the booze supply? If people aren't willing to live in a peaceful, safe community without regular infusion of alcohol, they are welcome to take their chances outside the wall...

 

If Pete were simply a brute like Ed, it would be easier to understand the quandary they have with the only doctor beating his wife, but if he only beats her when he's drunk, the solution to that, IMO, is startlingly simple, yet, as far as I can tell, no one has even attempted it.

Yes, there were a number of posts on this, perhaps relating to the last episode, but I recall them and actually participated in them. I was, and remain, amazed that there is that much liquor available in the Apocalypse. This is a tiny community that was probably occupied, based on prices quoted by Deanna, by a bunch of upwardly mobile Professional types. Even if they were all heavy drinkers, and I assume wine was a popular choice. wouldn't most of the supply left in houses be gone by now?  I cannot imagine anyone risking their lives on runs to bring back booze. Perhaps that's the simple answer. You want more booze Pete? Fine, you go out on a run, on your own because no one else wants it that bad, and bring it back. I gotta think that would work better than Betty Ford any day.

 

Or, your solution makes perfect sense as well. Even if you weren't dealing with a known alcoholic, it seems like it would just be wise to keep all residents sober while dealing with the threats of the world they live in.

 

I also co-sign with the posters that think the whole ASZ, Deanna, Douche 1 and 2 (or Joel Osteen. if you prefer) storyline was less rushed. I think it's really interesting in many ways, and I hope this isn't the end of it, or even the end of it as it is currently structured. I think a battle of wills and possible resolution involving the CDB and Deanna has the potential to be interesting. I am quite partial to the actress playing Deanna (Law and Order fan here) and she is the first nuanced leader they have come up against. I don't believe she is evil. She is certainly flawed, but so is Rick, IMO. Each brings something to the table. I think seeing it all mesh, or not, could prove interesting so I hope she doesn't just get offed in the finale.

Edited March 27, 2015 by chlban

[Bad Example]

I wonder if alcohol IS a priority for most of them, they're just not all alcoholics like Pete?  They're all living with what's really got to be an overwhelming fear of the unknown. All most of them know is that there's something outside the gates that will kill them, and they have to wonder in the back of their mind if that thing is ever going to come through the gates.  Walkers, to most of the aszhats, must be the boogie man you can see--terrifying, but not a solid reality.  Just something even more frightening because they *know* Walkers will kill them, but they don't really know Walkers.  Alcohol might help deal with that dread of the unknown in the back of their minds. 

 

A lot of people are referencing "remember when they were so worried about TWO Walkers going after Sophia?", and I think that ties in really well to this.  CDB isn't afraid of Walkers anymore.  They're (probably) afraid to die because of Walkers, but the Walkers themselves are a respected danger to be dealt with.  CDB knows that encountering a Walker isn't a death sentence.  They're not an unknown the way they are to the Aszhats.  They're not "scary", just a grim, dangerous fact.

[Boofish]

I thought it was funny that in the Houston Chronicle article about TWD they have nicknamed Nicholas "Joel Osteen".

I live in Houston too!! :)  

[Nashville]

If Pete were simply a brute like Ed, it would be easier to understand the quandary they have with the only doctor beating his wife, but if he only beats her when he's drunk, the solution to that, IMO, is startlingly simple, yet, as far as I can tell, no one has even attempted it.

Reminds me of a bit of the song "Matchmaker" in Fiddler On the Roof:

You've heard he has a temper.

He'll beat you every night.

But only when he's sober -

So you're all right!

[paigow]

Reminds me of a bit of the song "Matchmaker" in Fiddler On the Roof:

You've heard he has a temper.

He'll beat you every night.

But only when he's sober -

So you're all right!

Apropos song...if all the speculation about CDB needed for breeding is true

[NoWillToResist]

 I was, and remain, amazed that there is that much liquor available in the Apocalypse.

 

Yeah, the 'welcome' party thrown by Deanna had so much free-flowing wine and beer this far into the ZA that it took me right out of the scene.  If it had been some homemade moonshine or whatever, fine. But that was not the case.

 

I mean, hasn't the ZA been, like, two years by now? And Pete strikes me as someone who would have a high tolerance for alcohol, so he probably needs quite a bit to get smashed. And since alcohol is clearly not just a special occasion treat in ASZ, I remain flabbergasted at their supply.

 

I wonder if he totally bullshitted them all and was all "I need to sterilize my equipment every five minutes and I need alcohol to do that! Bring me ALL the alcohol you find and keep it comin'!!!"

 

I wonder if alcohol IS a priority for most of them, they're just not all alcoholics like Pete?

 

But see this is where I think Deanna's "this is a community" mantra is a bit of bullshit. They value their doctor? Fine. But setting aside that he beats his wife, a drunk doctor is not a useful doctor. You need your doctor sober. IMO she should put her "we're a community" money where her mouth is and cut off his access to alcohol. Neatly solves both problems in one and there is simply no valid argument against that arrangement that Pete would be able to present.

 

If that involves removing ALL alcohol from the community, then so be it. Just tell the members what's up. If someone is fine to let a woman be beaten unconscious just so that they can enjoy a glass of fine Merlot, then they should not be a part of the "community".

Edited March 27, 2015 by NoWillToResist

[Samx]

But see this is where I think Deanna's "this is a community" mantra is a bit of bullshit. They value their doctor? Fine. But setting aside that he beats his wife, a drunk doctor is not a useful doctor. You need your doctor sober. IMO she should put her "we're a community" money where her mouth is and cut off his access to alcohol. Neatly solves both problems in one and there is simply no valid argument against that arrangement that Pete would be able to present.

 

If that involves removing ALL alcohol from the community, then so be it. Just tell the members what's up. If someone is fine to let a woman be beaten unconscious just so that they can enjoy a glass of fine Merlot, then they should not be a part of the "community".

 

Deanna could take a page from Sons of Anarchy's Gemma Teller's "Stop Using or I'll Rip Your Tits Off" rehab program. Even if sobriety doesn't quell the desire to abuse, they could've at least tried separating Pete from his family with the conditions being that Pete must keep away from them in order to stay in ASZ. Of course, that would require the ASZhats to actually do some work to police that situation and they obviously don't want to be burdened with such things. I just talked myself into being more annoyed with the ASZhats than I was originally. 

[Boofish]

I believe the answer to why alcohol is available is because once again, Pete has all the power. Dry county? Good luck with that appendectomy! They won't even tell him he can't beat his wife they for sure would never send him to AA. These people care more about protecting the chocolate than they do Jessie and her kids

 

There is an abundance of alcohol because people who go out on runs (save for Bob and the ASZhats) don't have time to take booze orders (I also believe all the pasta makers in the world are still sitting on the shelves). When properly stored

(Opened/Unopened)  
Vodka lasts for Indefinite
Tequila lasts for Indefinite
Rum lasts for Indefinite
Gin lasts for Indefinite
Whiskey lasts for Indefinite
Brandy lasts for Indefinite

 

McLovin' and I have already decided that when the ZA  arrives, we are raiding an REI and Academy

Edited March 27, 2015 by Boofish

[kikismom]

I live in Houston too!! :)  

I don't live in Houston, but I read their paper for their walking dead column!

********************************************************************************************************

As far as simply get rid of the booze, I saw everybody drinking at that party (except the kids).

Everybody.

Including Deanna and Reg; Reg being the one who responded to Rick's refusal of the drink offer ("Nah, I'm good") with the line "Don't be." (good), until Rick gave in.

 

So Deanna's going to be the one playing Carrie Nation? She couldn't even make her milquetoast husband stop pushing whiskey on people who said no.

 

These are people who are seriously offended by being asked to wait for a library book.

These are people with "crates of dry pasta" according to Aaron, but are obsessed with finding someone to get a pasta making machine so they can have fresh homemade. They shouldn't have to put up with that Barilla shit at the end of the world.

 

I don't see how these people would give up personal creature comforts.

 

Furthermore, I would never expect them to do it to save a woman or child from being beaten if they believe in a system where you turn your back on your best friend being EATEN BY ZOMBIES....and not doing that as a freak act of cowardice but as an institutionalized socially accepted system.

 

Add to that the way Deanna---who supposedly exiled 3 people but doesn't know how to deal with one---would tell the majority of adults to leave ASZ and go out in the wild on their own.

Who's going to perp-march 30 defiant people out the gate?

Who would be left---Deanna (who enjoys a drink and has known about the abuse but dealt with it by hoping it would go away by itself) ...and the members of CDB?!? Oh, yeah, Deanna would be so enthusiastic about that idea.

 

Now let's sum it up by what we saw in the promo for next week---ASZ evidently deals with problems by having a town meeting and a vote?

I move that we pour all the beer wine and liquor down the drain and never have any more!

That should be a laugh.

 

Maybe it isn't so simple. The devil is in the details.

Edited March 27, 2015 by kikismom

[chlban]

Was it actually established that the "official" policy of the ASZ is to leave people behind? As opposed to they are just a bunch of cowards?

 

Because if that's true why did Douche 2 have to lie about leaving Aiden behind. Why didn't he just say he followed the system? Particularly since I recall him pointing out that Glen was the one that wanted to leave him behind?  

 

Also why was Tobin singing Abraham's praises and then Reg said saving someone makes them a hero, not a leader (no, that is not a direct quote, I don't memorize every line, but that is the jist of what was said). So, if the system is just to get out of dodge why would you make the guy that didn't do what he was supposed to the boss and why weren't Reg and Deanna upset because Abraham played hero?

 

I agree the ASZhats seem clueless and I don't doubt they are cowards overall, but I don't recall anyone other than the two douches talking about their "system". Isn't it possible it's something they set up for runs, but the rest of the group is unaware of  it? 

Edited March 27, 2015 by chlban

[Boofish]

Those men at the construction site was leaving Francine when Abraham went back to save her.

[morgankobi]

It was never said it was a whole ASZ policy, but there are likely only three groups who leave the walls: construction, runs, recruiting. Both construction and run crews have shown/said that leaving people behind is their own policy. (It even seems as if the construction crew has discussed it.) Since Aaron and Eric are likely the only recruiting team and they don't leave each other behind, we'll call them outliers. (I believe Aaron wouldn't leave behind anyone, whether they were in a relationship or not. Just a feeling.)

 

The ASZhats are the epitome of "don't ask, don't tell" in regards to anything that might cause conflict, concern, or even action. It seems like the only people who go outside the walls (minus two) have agreed to it and the rest just don't ask. Hey, why rock the wall-building, liquor-providing boat?

Edited March 27, 2015 by morgankobi

[Yolapukka]

 

I believe the answer to why alcohol is available is because once again, Pete has all the power. Dry county? Good luck with that appendectomy! They won't even tell him he can't beat his wife they for sure would never send him to AA. These people care more about protecting the chocolate than they do Jessie and her kids

 

That's what bugs me about their conundrum. Pete only has the power they've given him. The extent of his drinking makes his skills irrelevant and if he refuses to exercise them unless allowed access to copious amounts of alcohol and the freedom to beat up others, then his skills are also irrelevent. Either way his choices make him unavailable to be of use. If he refuses to contribute to the community, they don't need to provide him food, shelter or even sanctuary and they sure as hell don't need to be providing him with the quantity of alcohol he has been consuming. He is free to leave, which isn't going to happen ... unless he is irrationally drunk and goes trotting out the gate under his own steam. The point has been made earlier in this thread that Pete's drinking may be at a point where it is no longer safe to cut him off entirely, but even so, it doesn't correlate that he needs to be enabled to binge-drink. He's not good or useful to anyone in his current state. Moreover, the audience knows, even if Deanna doesn't, that he is happy to assault anyone who crosses him as his attack on Rick demonstrates, so the idea that his tendency towards violence is a manageable "private" matter is an illusion. Rick is the one who came off looking like a rabid dog in the fight, but Pete is the problem for the community.

 

ETA

 

So Deanna's going to be the one playing Carrie Nation? She couldn't even make her milquetoast husband stop pushing whiskey on people who said no.

 

 

This. That moment pissed me off. This community seems to have a culture of drinking and enforces it with the kind of well-intended, genial bullying that gets my back up in real life. I hate Pete, but poor Pete for having these idiots as his neighbours.

Edited March 27, 2015 by yuggapukka

[kikismom]

Those men at the construction site was leaving Francine when Abraham went back to save her.

And...Aiden talked about "the system" with Glenn and Tara when they went out to "weigh each other's sacks" with "real sweet-ass biscuits".(?)

If it is not an ASZ approved system, then why aren't the rest of the people in town up in arms about why their son/brother/husband went out on a run and never came back?

They lost 4 people before CDB got there, they lost Aiden, they lost Noah who they had just met the night before, people come back from a run covered with blood but no one cares. I take that to mean the official attitude is to learn to be okay with it.

Edited March 27, 2015 by kikismom

[Raven1707]

I've liked and agreed with just about everything that you've been saying very recently... however, while it wasn't "smiling", per se, you definitely see a sort of 'now that's what I'm talking about!' upturn to her mouth when Rick starts his truthful-yet-crazed rant.

 

I would have described Carol's expression as resolute, but fair enough.

 

I feel like the Alexandrians have to have some more competent people somewhere. The only really competent person we have met is Aaron, and maybe his boyfriend, and kind of Deanna and her husband. And only kind of. . They must be doing something to still be standing

 

At this point, I think they might simply be untested. The challenges they appear to have faced on a day-to-day basis (thus far) are almost tragically mundane.

 

I agree the ASZhats seem clueless and I don't doubt they are cowards overall, but I don't recall anyone other than the two douches talking about their "system". Isn't it possible it's something they set up for runs, but the rest of the group is unaware of  it? 

 

Abraham: (To Tobin) That’s how it works with you? You leave people behind to die?

Tobin: We have a system. Tell him, Francine. We have a–

Francine: (punches Tobin in the face) Asshole.

 

Tobin was evidently appointed to his position by Deanna, so even if he's only the third person to mention the "system," my inclination would be to accept that the system is indeed sanctioned by the community.

[kikismom]

n

This. That moment pissed me off. This community seems to have a culture of drinking and enforces it with the kind of well-intended, genial bullying that gets my back up in real life. I hate Pete, but poor Pete for having these idiots as his neighbours.

Thank you!!

Whether it is pushing drinks, drugs, or your body on someone who doesn't want it , no means no!

[maystone]

I think Reg was pushing Rick to have a drink to prove a point. Rick: No, I'm good. Reg: You don't have to be.  In other words, you don't have to be on guard, you don't have to be worried, you don't have to be afraid. You're in Alexandria - the First Wonder of the New World!  Have a drink. Have twenty! You're totally safe!

 

Idiots. I think if their mascot should be Alfred E. Neuman. "What? Me worry?"

 

But, yeah - if someone says no, then no it is.

[Rosiejuliemom]

The lack of photo recap is making me take a seat on Rick's crazy-train.

[kikismom]

Yeah, even if that was what Reg meant, Go ahead, relax! We're protected by corrugated sheeting! What's the worst that could happen? I still wonder if Reg is one of the types, like Deanna, that doesn't hear a word you say. Being that they are the leadership, those little refusals to take anything CDB says seriously is scary (to me).

[ghoulina]

The lack of photo recap is making me take a seat on Rick's crazy-train.

 

Right??? Someone come Michonne me upside the head!

 

 

 

As for the "system", I think it might be a rule those who go outside the walls agreed upon, but maybe not one that Deanna knows about or sanctions. But the fact that both the construction guys AND Douches 2.0 mentioned it makes me think it wasn't just random. 

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

Totally agree re: lack of photo recap.

 

Can't wait to see what they come up with for the final 5 minutes or so.

Right??? Someone come Michonne me upside the head!

 

 

 

As for the "system", I think it might be a rule those who go outside the walls agreed upon, but maybe not one that Deanna knows about or sanctions. But the fact that both the construction guys AND Douches 2.0 mentioned it makes me think it wasn't just random. 

 

I think "the system" is one of those things.  IE; its not a hardline rule made up by the ASZ 'leadership', but everyone still knows about and obeys "the system".

 

And "the system", by outside viewing definition means "thanks for 'taking one for the team'!  we'll drink ourselves stupid to appreciatedly acknowledge your sacrifice back at the safety within the walls"

Edited March 27, 2015 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[Evie]

Right??? Someone come Michonne me upside the head!

As for the "system", I think it might be a rule those who go outside the walls agreed upon, but maybe not one that Deanna knows about or sanctions. But the fact that both the construction guys AND Douches 2.0 mentioned it makes me think it wasn't just random.

Yeah, I'm not sure Deanna knows about it or maybe more likely, doesn't want to know. It seemed like all the construction guys knew about the "system" but I wonder if the four guys that Nicholas and Aiden left behind knew or if it was just something between those two. That part was unclear to me.

[morgankobi]

Yeah, I'm not sure Deanna knows about it or maybe more likely, doesn't want to know. It seemed like all the construction guys knew about the "system" but I wonder if the four guys that Nicholas and Aiden left behind knew or if it was just something between those two. That part was unclear to me.

The runs, per Aiden, split into groups and used their flares to alert the other group if there was trouble. I suspect Aiden and Dickolus ignored flares twice (2 guys each) from the other group on their run.

Edited March 27, 2015 by morgankobi

[kj4ever]

Yeah, even if that was what Reg meant, Go ahead, relax! We're protected by corrugated sheeting! What's the worst that could happen? I still wonder if Reg is one of the types, like Deanna, that doesn't hear a word you say. Being that they are the leadership, those little refusals to take anything CDB says seriously is scary (to me).

I don't think they take them seriously at all.  I know I've seen people say on here "Why didn't they tell them what they've been through??"  I think they have.  Remember Reg says something about Rick saving 14 people and all the things they said he did for them.  Carl told them he shot his mother FFS.  I don't think they kept anything back, but Deanna just had her fingers in her ears going "La la la la la I can't hear you I'm the Queen of the new Civilization!"

[Yolapukka]

I think they've told them some things, but left out details, for example, they may have told her the prison was over-run, but not the full circumstances. I'm fairly certain that they've left a great deal out of what happened at Terminus, because Carol wants to be discreet about her part in it. However I think Terminus is kind of moot anyway, because the full story is so bizarre and extreme that it could have the opposite effect on Deanna and lead her to conclude that Rick's people are irrationally paranoid because of a unique situation. Also even otherwise fair-minded people tend to not only victim-blame but also see victims as having being defiled and damaged by their experiences. I think almost every experience they could use to illustrate the extremity of life outside requires complicated explanations. The only thing I can think of that would be uncomplicated would be their encounters with large walker herds, to which the ASZ answer would be no worries, because... wall.

Edited March 28, 2015 by yuggapukka

[Bad Example]

I'm going to guess that whole "I tore out a guy's throat with my teeth!" was probably left out, too.  Because you know.  You don't want to brag about dental health.

[flutist4fun]

I'm going to guess that whole "I tore out a guy's throat with my teeth!" was probably left out, too.  Because you know.  You don't want to brag about dental health.

Hee. I've wondered if Rick even told the gang about this. Maybe around the teeny campfire one night in the forest. "Hey guys, gather round for story time with Rick...and Carol..and..." Imagine FPP's eyes then; he would surely be living up to his name.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

I kinda hope he told them about getting revenge for tying to kill (& eat) them, vs Gareth & the Termites;

 

"He didn't believe me, when I made that promise.  So, I decided to 'hatchet up' the focus of my intentions towards him."

Edited March 27, 2015 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[NoWillToResist]

Deanna could take a page from Sons of Anarchy's Gemma Teller's "Stop Using or I'll Rip Your Tits Off" rehab program. 

 

Heh. One of the very few times I found Gemma palatable. And you knew she'd back the shit out of that threat too! :)

 

I don't see how these people would give up personal creature comforts.

 

ASZ evidently deals with problems by having a town meeting and a vote?

I move that we pour all the beer wine and liquor down the drain and never have any more!

That should be a laugh.

 

Maybe it isn't so simple. The devil is in the details.

 

I still don't understand where Deanna has total authority and where things have to be voted on. I mean, she appointed Michonne and Rick to sheriff duty and said that the others would simply accept it because she said so. So, clearly she thinks she has some power/weight/control over issues which affect the community. So I don't see why the booze situation couldn't have followed that same path. After all, it's not like their drunk doctor is any fucking use to them anyway. Bah, I hate this fucking storyline. Why couldn't they have just made him abusive? The 'only abusive when drunk but always drunk but let it go because we need him for his doctoring skills except...drunk all the time, so..." is just such awful, awful writing to me. I'd love to know why TPTB felt that they needed to make Pete's abusive nature alcohol dependent.

 

Was it actually established that the "official" policy of the ASZ is to leave people behind? As opposed to they are just a bunch of cowards?

 

Because if that's true why did Douche 2 have to lie about leaving Aiden behind. Why didn't he just say he followed the system? 

 

I can actually understand this. It's one thing to tell the boss lady (who apparently has the power to exile you) that you left Joe Blow behind to die. It's quite another to tell her that you left HER SON to a grisly, painful death. Not sure she'd be so impartial about that. Also, I think he's a weak coward who, deep down, knows that he was a coward, is ashamed and is burying his guilt with bluster and attitude. Otherwise, he could have simply told Deanna most of the truth (that Aiden got thrown into a wall and impaled on some bars by the explosion and died.) But instead he not only lied about what happened, but painted himself as a (thwarted) hero. He wishes he had Glenn's strength of character and bravery so he told the story with him in Glenn's place.

Edited March 27, 2015 by NoWillToResist

[paigow]

I think "the system" is one of those things.  IE; its not a hardline rule made up by the ASZ 'leadership', but everyone still knows about and obeys "the system".

 

 

Rick: Col. Douchebag, do you know what a Code Red is?

DBag: Yes.

Rick: Does it mean to save yourself when a friend is in danger?

DBag: Yes.

Rick: Who ordered the Code Red on Aiden?

[kj4ever]

You raise a very interesting issue here: is Jessie really noble? What other option does she have but to stay with her husband? She knows the leadership won't do shit against him. So, what can she do...leave? Take her two kids outside the wall and make owl sculptures to ward off walkers and predatory humans? Not sure that will be effective. :)

 

In a regular society, abused women often get criticized for staying because, theoretically, there are safer/better environments. But in the ZA? That's not the case. And - thus far - ASZ *is* the safer/better place. Jessie and her kids' chances of survival out on their own are laughably low, IMO.

 

The larger problem that I have with this abuse story is that, unless I've misunderstood, Pete is only abusive when he's drunk, so why in the everlovingfuck hasn't Jessie asked the leadership to make ASZ a dry community? Surely it can't be that difficult to persuade people that a sober doctor is a safer doctor so hey, maybe stop the booze supply? If people aren't willing to live in a peaceful, safe community without regular infusion of alcohol, they are welcome to take their chances outside the wall...

 

If Pete were simply a brute like Ed, it would be easier to understand the quandary they have with the only doctor beating his wife, but if he only beats her when he's drunk, the solution to that, IMO, is startlingly simple, yet, as far as I can tell, no one has even attempted it.

This is sooo sooo sooo blaming the victim.  I hate to break it to you, but doctor or not, blue collar, white collar or no collar all men that beat their wives are brutes like Ed.  

 

That damn Jessie.  How could she not ask the community to cut off his liquor supply even if she probably knows they all know he's beating her and could give a flying fuck.  What an idiot.  She probably deserves it for being so stupid. (in case anyone missed it, this is extreme sarcasm)

 

I can't imagine this type of situation.  You have Pete, who abused her before but sought help.  He probably sought help because he didn't want to lose half his shit and/or go to jail the next time he beat the shit out of her.

 

Fast forward to the ZA, and he's in a community where he's got to know there are absolutely no consequences to his actions.  Where's she going to go?  Even if she tried to "leave" to a new house or whatever he knows those people won't have her back, they'll have his.  He has free reign to knock the crap out of her whenever he wants.  I'm actually surprised she's still alive, and it must have gotten pretty bad for her to install a lock in a closet for the youngest one.

 

Men who beat women are fucking cowards who want control, so they prey on the weakest that can't pose a threat.  Then he can do whatever he wants?  I can't believe people don't feel more sympathy for Jessie.

[mandolin]

Rick: Col. Douchebag, do you know what a Code Red is?

DBag: Yes.

Rick: Does it mean to save yourself when a friend is in danger?

DBag: Yes.

Rick: Who ordered the Code Red on Aiden?

Dbag: You can't handle the truth!

Men who beat women are fucking cowards who want control, so they prey on the weakest that can't pose a threat.  Then he can do whatever he wants?  I can't believe people don't feel more sympathy for Jessie.

I think NoWillToResist did address this to his/her (sorry, don't know) last line:

 the solution to that, IMO, is startlingly simple, yet, as far as I can tell, no one has even attempted it.

 

Even if Jessie can't do it, NO ONE has attempted to take his alcohol away. Yes, not Jessie, the victim, but also not Deanna, their self-proclaimed leader and visionary. That sucks. And I think you are both in agreement that Jessie has probably been conditioned, even moreso now in the ZA, that, at least with Pete, she isn't outside the walls.

Edited March 28, 2015 by mandolin

[kikismom]

Dbag: You can't handle the truth!

I think NoWillToResist did address this to his/her (sorry, don't know) last line:

 the solution to that, IMO, is startlingly simple, yet, as far as I can tell, no one has even attempted it.

 

Even if Jessie can't do it, NO ONE has attempted to take his alcohol away. Yes, not Jessie, the victim, but also not Deanna, their self-proclaimed leader and visionary. That sucks. And I think you are both in agreement that Jessie has probably been conditioned, even moreso now in the ZA, that, at least with Pete, she isn't outside the walls.

And I addressed this at 1:42. It wouldn't be simple in practice. It sounds so easy; just take his booze away. There is a reason NO ONE has attempted it.

[mandolin]

And I addressed this at 1:42. It wouldn't be simple in practice. It sounds so easy; just take his booze away. There is a reason NO ONE has attempted it.

.

Oh no, I don't think it sounds easy at all, but by "try to take the alcohol away" I guess I mean do more than say, "Golly; I hoped it would get better on its own." That's apathy. If ASZ was a true community, they'd actually care about each other. I see very little of that. Has anyone even talked to Pete or each other about the situation?

I rewatched the ep when our people first arrive at ASZ. Deanna is so intent on having them there to help them. Her attitude there is so different (no actually it just appears different to me I think) than now. I think she is only interested in the surface. In things. How it looks as the future. Not if things are actually working as a real, caring society.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

I just can't stand that the only time we see Pete; its through Rick's eyes [& once through Carol's].

 

So, of course, that makes him appear as drunk (or drinking) and domineering with his wife & Sam.

 

So, Rick/Carol and CDB are OK with him being drunk and working on Tara?  Or are there rare moments of sobriety that we viewers are not allowed to witness?  (the only miniscule short time we saw Pete without at least a drink at hand, was when the Anderson's walked into the 'welcome party' and he shook hands w/ Rick, before telling Jessie to heel and he'd get some drinks [aka, and voila!  more drinking and getting drunk])

[gutbuster]

That's what bugs me about their conundrum. Pete only has the power they've given him. The extent of his drinking makes his skills irrelevant and if he refuses to exercise them unless allowed access to copious amounts of alcohol and the freedom to beat up others, then his skills are also irrelevent. Either way his choices make him unavailable to be of use. If he refuses to contribute to the community, they don't need to provide him food, shelter or even sanctuary and they sure as hell don't need to be providing him with the quantity of alcohol he has been consuming. He is free to leave, which isn't going to happen ... unless he is irrationally drunk and goes trotting out the gate under his own steam. The point has been made earlier in this thread that Pete's drinking may be at a point where it is no longer safe to cut him off entirely, but even so, it doesn't correlate that he needs to be enabled to binge-drink. He's not good or useful to anyone in his current state. Moreover, the audience knows, even if Deanna doesn't, that he is happy to assault anyone who crosses him as his attack on Rick demonstrates, so the idea that his tendency towards violence is a manageable "private" matter is an illusion. Rick is the one who came off looking like a rabid dog in the fight, but Pete is the problem for the community.

 

ETA

 

 

This. That moment pissed me off. This community seems to have a culture of drinking and enforces it with the kind of well-intended, genial bullying that gets my back up in real life. I hate Pete, but poor Pete for having these idiots as his neighbours.

I think this assessment of Pete makes sense considering how often he is shown noticeably drunk, however the show keeps telling us and implying that Pete is doing his job, and doing it well. Deanna said Pete "has saved lives", more than one person, hence her reluctance to even try to do something that might potentially upset him.  Aaron told Noah that Pete was a talented surgeon, he's seen him do amazing things (again, plural), and that he thought Pete might be able to help Noah. Jessie told Rick that Tara was in good hands with Pete taking care of her, and raven1707 posted upthread that Rosita reported that Tara was "Stable. Holding her own." which I take to mean that Pete tended to Tara and was able to help her. Even Pete himself, when Carol went to check up on Sam and Jessie before Pete slammed the door in her face - he asked Carol if she was feeling okay when she showed up. I thought that was interesting, because I imagine if Carol hadn't been there to investigate and she truly wasn't feeling well, that Pete would've helped her. (I would add Pete offering to give Carl and Judith checkups twice to the list, but that was just creepy, and offering one to Rick I think was creepy and posturing, but still.) Deanna, if not all of the ASZhats value him a great deal so, again, according to the show, he has to be doing his job with a certain degree of competence. 

 

Pete has 'appeared' sober a couple of times, ironically at Deanna's booze party when he first offers to look at Rick's kids I don't remember him seeming drunk (yet). And also when he was walking with Jessie before Rick's infamous gun-grab. He and Jessie both wave at Rick and he looked pleasant and non-soused. Maybe he is able to still function as a doctor while drunk? He's able to remain mobile and coherent to stalk Rick even when he's clearly been drinking. So maybe he's a violent, abusive, creepy, drunk who can still manage to appear not-drunk and perform complicated and/or life saving medical procedures while actually being half/completely in the bag at all times. All of this is another reason why I dislike this storyline. He could have just as easily been a violent, inappropriate, creepy, sober a-hole and then it wouldn't have been so hard to believe he could be a terrible husband and a good doctor. Why did he HAVE to be a drunk and an abuser?

 

I also agree about Reg. I commented on that after the episode that I hated how he passive aggressively forced the drink on Rick. Not everyone likes alcohol, and even in a ZA, that wouldn't change. Sometimes when someone says "No thanks, I'm good" they aren't being coy, they actually mean it. Obviously this didn't apply to, Rick, but still. Reg came off as an ass in that moment.

[kj4ever]

I think people would be surprised at how many functioning alcoholic doctors there are now.

[AngelaHunter]

Deanna, if not all of the ASZhats value him a great deal so, again, according to the show, he has to be doing his job with a certain degree of competence.

 

Did we ever find out what kind of doctor he is? If he's a GP, doing check ups, giving stitches, administering antibiotics/shots or lancing boils,  then I guess he could do a reasonable job even when half in the bag or suffering a hangover. If he's a surgeon then I can't see anyone trusting him to operate.

[morgankobi]

Aaron told Noah Dr. Pete was a surgeon and could maybe fix his leg.

 

The anesthesia process probably goes: One for you, one for me. One for you, two for me...

Edited March 28, 2015 by morgankobi

[NoWillToResist]

This is sooo sooo sooo blaming the victim.  I hate to break it to you, but doctor or not, blue collar, white collar or no collar all men that beat their wives are brutes like Ed.  

 

That damn Jessie.  How could she not ask the community to cut off his liquor supply even if she probably knows they all know he's beating her and could give a flying fuck.  What an idiot.  She probably deserves it for being so stupid. (in case anyone missed it, this is extreme sarcasm)

 

Whether fair/accurate or not, I think there is a difference between a sober man (Ed) choosing to beat his wife vs someone who is not in control of their faculties doing so. Granted, in Pete's case, he shouldn't drink to the point of losing control, but if he has an addiction, that's an illness which requires help too (which Jessie claims he previously successfully did).

 

However, if Pete is a victim of alcoholism and Deanna wants him around for his doctoring skills, then I think it's fair to think that others should have a role to play in helping him - particularly in this environment. In our current world, you can't really help someone who doesn't want to be helped (unless they're arrested). There would be nothing to stop Pete from popping to the corner liquor store or local pub to get soused. But in the ZA, effort - life endangering effort - has to be made to procure supplies. I place the bulk of the blame on Deanna - since it was just revealed that she knew about this shit - for not taking steps. She is that group's leader and she talks a good game about her community and what's best for them and looking out for each other and all that jazz, but the ASZ situation doesn't reflect that at all, IMO. I simply don't understand why Jessie and/or Deanna apparently haven't tried floated the idea of banning alcohol if this is the crux of the issue for their sole doctor.

 

I have also indicated that Jessie doesn't have any better options. Going outside the wall (for her and her kids) would be suicide. So, instead she stays where it's generally safe, save for the presumably occasional beat-down from her husband. IMO, the characters are suffering because this storyline is fucking terribly done. We found out in this episode that the 'leadership' of the community knew about the abuse and just...hoped it would sort itself out? What the actual fuck? And wasn't it in this episode where Jessie says that Pete got help before (which to me implies AA/rehab since I've been given the impression that he only is abusive when drunk), so it seems to me that booze is the problem.

 

My main problem is how this whole story has been presented to us. In virtually no time at all, Rick becomes laser focused on her, it's conveniently revealed that her husband is an abusive dick (God forbid Rick been seen as a happy-home wrecker), the community leadership is revealed to KNOW about the abuse and has apparently done sweet fuck all to keep their doctor sober and a woman and two children safe. This...just doesn't add up for me. I really wish the show had not even fucking bothered with the Grady Hospital story (since the 2 characters involved in it are both dead already), got their characters to ASZ earlier so that this had more time to develop.

 

And it really pisses me off that Rick is the one who's been tasked as the only person willing to do anything about it. Rick, who conveniently seems to want Jessie for himself. They seriously couldn't have given this 'champion for the abused woman' role to anyone else? Like, the previously abused woman? Even though Carol is playing the meek little housewife role, I see no contradiction for her to approach Deanna about her concerns re: that family.

 

But instead we get Rick, who inexplicably seems drawn to this woman; he is up in her space way more than he should be considering that she's married (a fact she's told him several times to my recollection); conveniently for him, her husband is abusive; inexplicably the leader of her community knows but doesn't want to do anything about it; inexplicably Carol doesn't seem interesting in getting involved; rather than bring in an impartial party to assist (how about his fellow law enforcer Michonne?), Rick decides to take matters into his own hands and appoints himself as defender of Jessie - something he claims he wouldn't do for any other woman. Blergh. Ugh, I just hate this plot.

[kikismom]

; inexplicably Carol doesn't seem interesting in getting involved;

Going to Rick and saying you're going to have to kill him seem like she's interested, and putting her two cents in. Going to the Anderson home and trying to see Sam and Jessie seems interested. I don't know, YMMV.

[Raven1707]

Nielsen has released its Live + 3 (Day) ratings for "Try" and the total number of viewers for this episode during that period was 18.172 million.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Raven1707

[paigow]

And I addressed this at 1:42. It wouldn't be simple in practice. It sounds so easy; just take his booze away. There is a reason NO ONE has attempted it.

There was an episode of Third Watch where Davis almost killed Sully (accidentally) by drying him out cold turkey in a cabin. His paramedic buddies said Sully needed periodic doses of alcohol throughout the weekend or withdrawal would be fatal. Pete has probably used this logic on Deanna already. (Because there is no cable in ASZ, he busted out his DVD box set)

[kj4ever]

Nielsen has released its Live + 3 (Day) ratings for "Try" and the total number of viewers for this episode during that period was 18.172 million.

I can only see that climbing high for season six.  I can't tell you how many people plan to start binge watching it after seeing/hearing all the hoopla/discussions about it at work and on Facebook.

[Rosiejuliemom]

I can only see that climbing high for season six.  I can't tell you how many people plan to start binge watching it after seeing/hearing all the hoopla/discussions about it at work and on Facebook.

 

I got my mom to binge watch and now she's hooked. My next goal is to team up with my brothers-in-law and husband to get the in-laws to watch.

[Yolapukka]

 

I think this assessment of Pete makes sense considering how often he is shown noticeably drunk, however the show keeps telling us and implying that Pete is doing his job, and doing it well. ......

........Deanna, if not all of the ASZhats value him a great deal so, again, according to the show, he has to be doing his job with a certain degree of competence.

 

Pete has 'appeared' sober a couple of times, ironically at Deanna's booze party when he first offers to look at Rick's kids I don't remember him seeming drunk (yet). And also when he was walking with Jessie before Rick's infamous gun-grab. He and Jessie both wave at Rick and he looked pleasant and non-soused. Maybe he is able to still function as a doctor while drunk? He's able to remain mobile and coherent to stalk Rick even when he's clearly been drinking. So maybe he's a violent, abusive, creepy, drunk who can still manage to appear not-drunk and perform complicated and/or life saving medical procedures while actually being half/completely in the bag at all times. All of this is another reason why I dislike this storyline. He could have just as easily been a violent, inappropriate, creepy, sober a-hole and then it wouldn't have been so hard to believe he could be a terrible husband and a good doctor. Why did he HAVE to be a drunk and an abuser?

 

I think people would be surprised at how many functioning alcoholic doctors there are now.

 

I think he has been able to function for a long time, but from what we are seeing, which is pretty sketchy, it looks like he goes for periods where he has a measure of control and is if not sober, then tippling at a maintenance dose so he has a low-level buzz but isn't noticeably drunk, then something, like the party,  sets him off and he starts binge drinking so he's getting obviously intoxicated, openly hostile and violent. Typically, if his disease is progressing and it more than likely is,  those periods of sobriety or somewhat controlled drinking are getting shorter and the heavy drinking is getting more severe. I'm skeptical about his ability to perform with full effectiveness when he's on a tear, I'm sure he can do his job, but I'm dubious that there aren't unnecessary risks to patients when he is as badly drunk as he was when he attacked Rick. I'm sure he has done amazing things, I'm sure he can still do amazing things but the times he has that capacity are getting smaller. Eventually the physical effects that heavy drinking has on the human body  are going to render him ineffective, even when he's not actively bingeing.

[Nashville]

Whether fair/accurate or not, I think there is a difference between a sober man (Ed) choosing to beat his wife vs someone who is not in control of their faculties doing so. Granted, in Pete's case, he shouldn't drink to the point of losing control, but if he has an addiction, that's an illness which requires help too (which Jessie claims he previously successfully did).

 

Pete is a wife-beater - just like Ed. Only difference I see is Pete uses alcohol as an excuse for his behavior.