S04.E16: Poor Unfortunate Soul

[KAOS Agent]

How did August know that the dragon was looking for the author for years? And how did he know to grab his research or understand anything about the book? Wasn't he all wooden legged and trying to find a cure at the time? So they're saying that rather than getting his ass to Storybrooke as quickly as possible, he went back to the dragon's place and somehow carried off all of his research knowing that it was connected to a book that didn't yet exist or show itself to anyone until almost 20 years after he'd arrived in this world.

[Zuleikha]

I thought Rumple indicated that August was lying when he talked about the Dragon and grabbing the Dragon's research. Rumple said he never bothered going to August's trailer because August is a born liar. That's why Rumple brought back the anti-fairy-magic vial and re-activated August's curse.

 

So why, under a completely different curse now (that Regina and Henry's TLK broke last season--which logically implies that one of them is now the Savior), is Emma still the Savior?

Is it a completely different curse? I don't think we know enough about the rules of magic to know that. I'm going to give myself a headache if I try and think about this too much, though, because I actually liked the Snowing reveal, but it really makes no sense. My best guess at what happened is that Regina either used the same physical Dark Curse that was used in the first place or a recreated version based on it. Somehow, she was able to cast it as Snow's magical proxy instead of as herself. Because everyone had already been cursed, they had the same magical curse immunity that Anna had in regards to the Shattered Sight spell and so no one lost their Enchanted Forest identities. They only lost the year of memory based on Zelena's new curse. Since it was essentially the same curse, Emma is still the Savior except that this time she fulfilled her Savior role by redeeming Regina instead of directly breaking it. 

 

I suspect I've now thought about this more than the writers have, but I think it mostly makes sense and fits. The make things that don't to me are why the newcomers like Robin and Aurora wouldn't have lost their EF identities (since they weren't cursed before) and how on earth Regina could cast the curse as Snow's proxy. 

 

I tend to think of Emma's Saviorness as being tied into the existence of Storybrooke. In my headcanon, whatever special Savior magic she has as a result of Rumple writing her into the Dark Curse, always works as a stabilizing force against dark magic in Storybrooke because she brings the happy endings. 

[KAOS Agent]

 

I thought Rumple indicated that August was lying when he talked about the Dragon and grabbing the Dragon's research. Rumple said he never bothered going to August's trailer because August is a born liar.

 

No the papers with the author were in the stuff Regina got from Geppetto. They were never in his trailer and Rumpel didn't even bother going there to check. Rumpel just questioned his veracity at all and he left to steal the fairy magic undo potion from the Contrivance Fairy. August didn't just come up with his information about the door out of nowhere. I don't think he was lying about the dragon because there was absolutely no other source from which he could have gathered any information. He took that page out of the book while the town was still cursed, so unless August was hearing "Help me!" noises from the book, his information came from someone else.

[Camera One]

So now, the fairies have an "ample supply of magic"?  Uh, if so, why don't they use it for anything?  Why would they bother having potions to "temporarily reverse any spell" they cast, if they're not casting any spells?   And of course, the Fairies are dumb enough to just leave it lying around, because heroes are all stupid.  

 

Why didn't Rumple go over to Henry's place, freeze him, and take a look at that photo of the Door himself?  

 

Has Regina shared with him the info from Blue that the Sorcerer and the Author are not the same person?  

Edited March 26, 2015 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

"Ohhh, that makes sense the Author was stuck behind that door on that page all along," said no-one.

 

That's actually a twist that I liked personally.  The Sorcerer trapping the Author in his book.  What's the Sorcerer's beef with the Author anyway?  Bad breakup?

[pezgirl7]

That's actually a twist that I liked personally.  The Sorcerer trapping the Author in his book.  What's the Sorcerer's beef with the Author anyway?  Bad breakup?

 

I liked that twist as well. When I first heard it, I flashed back to the video for Take On Me.

 

I wonder if the Sorcerer wasn't happy with the way the author is manipulating everyone's stories. Maybe he doesn't believe in destiny and fate, but free will.

[Shanna Marie]

Espionage and secrets aren't as fun when they're revealed to the characters so quickly. Regina had barely begun her double agent work and found out Rumple was behind it all along.

And while she was resourceful in finding a way to send a message, she didn't do anything to learn about Rumple but just stand there. I might not have minded so much if they had a better track record of paying off things they build up or having characters work to learn things instead of things just falling into their laps or people just telling them. If they usually fully developed every scenario, then it might be refreshing to occasionally have a no-drama bit where they just learn something and move on with the story. But coming after an arc in which Henry went undercover and learned absolutely nothing other than how to polish furniture, Belle missed all kinds of potential clues about Rumple's activities before having a magic gauntlet tell her there was a problem, no one did anything about the massive numbers of clues that something was wrong with Hook but then Anna just told them that Rumple was a liar, and they devoted half an episode to removing the ribbons and then that didn't matter to the resolution, it's really annoying for them to have set up a situation designed to keep them in the dark except for Rumple's arrogance and possessiveness leaving the door open to them figuring something was wrong, and then in the beginning of the next episode they're flat-out told about Rumple, and the pirate oath doesn't even come into play because Belle just blurts that she gave the dagger to Hook. No one ever seems to have to learn or discover something for themselves. They're always just told or handed the solution.

 

It isn't the revelation of yet another way portals could be opened between worlds (with Ursula being able to do so) that's the Rumple fail here. It's the fact that his son was in Neverland from about six months after he left until after the curse was cast, and now we know that the entirely non-magical (as far as we know) Hook was literally commuting between Neverland and the Enchanted Forest world during that time. The non-magical (and, frankly, kind of an idiot) Neal was able to learn about five minutes after arriving at his father's castle that Henry was in Neverland, using one of Rumple's own magical objects. And yet the Dark One either couldn't or wouldn't find his son in a place where he could have reached him or sent someone after him (if he didn't want to deal with his own father)?

 

I kind of want to see the Hook and Ariel Show -- we get another curse reversal back to the old world, and this time Hook decides to go around setting right the wrongs he did during his pirate days, with Ariel around to help pave the way, communicate with sea creatures, and give him a good slap every time he starts to revert to his old ways. That must be one strong little mermaid, since she was able to get an unconscious, full-sized (he's slightly built, but reasonably tall and seems to be solid muscle on that slight frame) man out of the water, into a ship that sits well above the water, and then down into the cabin. I'm also a little worried about what being dunked in water would do to all that leather.

 

Until and unless Hook actually mentions that stupid book or the Author, I'm going to choose to believe that his worry about losing his happy ending is because he fears he really doesn't deserve one after all the bad things that he's done and he still has some bad habits and impulses that might cause him to ruin his own happy ending, not because of any kind of bizarre cosmic rule that villains aren't allowed to win even if they've changed. It seemed he was more concerned about what him losing his happy ending might do to Emma than he was worried about his own status.

[KingOfHearts]

That's actually a twist that I liked personally. The Sorcerer trapping the Author in his book. What's the Sorcerer's beef with the Author anyway? Bad breakup?

I like it too, it was just out of the blue. I think it makes the Author a little more platable and less vague. For some reason it made feel a little better about that plot now. It's just nice to have a physical location.

Edited March 26, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

I like it too, it was just out of the blue. I think it makes the Author a little more platable and less vague. For some reason it made feel a little better about that plot now. It's just nice to have a physical location.

It just would have helped if this hadn't all started with Regina pulling the idea out of thin air. She got this vague notion that Robin ended up being put back together with his wife because she was considered the villain in a book whose events ended 28 years ago (has she considered that what's really going on is True Love trying to reassert itself to keep Robin and Marian together, and it has absolutely nothing to do with Regina?), with zero evidence. It was a whim. And now we're getting all kinds of evidence. It would make so much more sense if Regina came up with this hypothesis based on anything -- like if she hadn't been blaming the book or wanting to find the Author until Robin found the alternative page or Henry found the secret room full of blank books and then she suspected that maybe it was all because of the Author. (Of course, it would also help if her life was actually less happy than any of the heroes' lives.)

[AudienceofOne]

It just would have helped if this hadn't all started with Regina pulling the idea out of thin air

 

 

Well, she was looking at this historically-accurate book of things that actually happened when she came up with it so it was a natural conclusion that all events that happened after it were predetermined by the author that wrote it. Despite the fact the book doesn't deal with any future events at all. Not only that, but when Emma went back in time and changed some things the book changed. Anyone would think the whole thing was pulled out of somebody's backside with very little thought.

[kingshearte]

Although I found some elements a bit... far-fetched, I suppose (Hook's reasoning for deciding to screw over Ursula after all, Poseidon just giving up to Hook, the foreshortened nature of the whole Ursula backstory, which did make it lose some emotional resonance), I still enjoyed this episode. The feel of it was much more early seasonish, and I didn't actively roll my eyes nearly as many times as in recent episodes. Plus, I am also hanging around at the shallow end of the pool, and I say that it would be hard to hate an episode that lets me look at Hook at much as this one did. And I'm fully on board the Captain Swan ship, so that part was nice too.

 

I don't mind seeing one of the Queens abandoning Rumpel's goals for her own sake, but I was kind of hoping for an endgame of the Queens sticking together and screwing Rumpel over the same way he did them in the past. I think it's a little odd that Ursula would leave Maleficent and Cruella that easily; the show'd implied they'd all become pretty close.

I think, now that we have this precedent, I'd like to see something similar happen to the other two, and then they could reunite to triumph over Rumple by the end. I suspect that the first half of that might happen, but I don't know if we'll get the Queen reunification part. We'll see, I guess.

 

I have to say, though, that as little emotional impact as Ursula's story ultimately had, due to the whole thing being so condensed, I fear there'll be even less from whatever redemption Cruella might get. Aside from that one time she helped kidnap Belle, we've had no indication that she's had any previous dealings with anyone else we know or care about, so whatever her deal is, it's likely to seem forced and retconned, and thus not terribly satisfying.

 

Agree. And their reaction to Emma saying she understood Hook wanting to shove the Dagger into Rumple's chest was eye-roll worthy. You could tell they were thinking "Emma is going DARK!!!111". Ugh...

Word.

 

Seriously? Why didn't he just tell Regina to borrow the page from Henry or call him, ask him to find the page, and then text a picture of it to her? Gold's solution was just, oh, if Henry has it then let's try to figure something else out!

Again, word. That was so weird.

[daxx]

I have now seen this episode 4 times. I haven't done that since the season 3 finale! It's not perfect but so much better then the rest of 4b.

[OnceUponAJen]

I forget how many times I watched the S3 finale just waiting for S4.

[YaddaYadda]

I still watch the finale from time to time actually.  It's one of the few episodes where I don't have to fast forward much.

[Shanna Marie]

A few things I noticed in rewatching:

 

I don't think Belle was acting like she didn't care about Rumple being back and having the dagger. I think she's just gone numb about him, like she's just all out of outrage over him because how much worse can he be than he already has been? She had such a sad resignation about her when she muttered about how she'd thought he couldn't betray her any worse. Ah, but he can.

 

On the flip side to that, I'd love to see the outtakes from the scene in the shop when Ursula and Hook came in with the Jolly in the bottle, because there was one shot where Belle was just about doubled over and seemingly fighting to stop from laughing, and then later when Will and Hook were talking about the size of the ship she was still smirking like she was fighting not to grin. I suppose it's not out of character for Belle to find that funny, but this looked kind of like she was struggling to stay in character.

 

I wonder if Ariel recognizes the irony in her being angry at Hook for not giving Blackbeard the Jolly Roger in exchange for info about Eric and then having to go on a quest to deal with Blackbeard because he was using the ship to terrorize people after Hook sold it to him. What did she think Blackbeard would have done with the ship if Hook had just handed it over in the first place?

 

Was Hook so distressed in his scene with Emma at the end because he actually believes in the book/Author nonsense, or because he knows Emma believes in it? If she believes Regina can't get a happy ending without fate being rewritten, then what does that say about what she believes their future is? It didn't seem to have occurred to her that he'd fall into the same category as Regina, but he definitely thought so. And yet he's still taking responsibility for his own actions, unlike certain other people.

 

I also thought it seemed like Poseidon had already repented, like he'd been regretting his actions for a long time, and therefore it wasn't like Ariel and Hook had to turn him. They just had to find him and bring him together with his daughter. It even sounded like he was taking the blame for what Hook did, since he was the one who created the situation.

[YaddaYadda]

Was Hook so distressed in his scene with Emma at the end because he actually believes in the book/Author nonsense, or because he knows Emma believes in it?

 

I think it's neither.  I think it's the way he reacted with Ursula on his ship that made him wonder mostly about himself and how easy it is to slip back into who he used to be.  He was a villain, he is trying to change and has been successful for the most part, but he falls flat on his face every now and then and he looks over at Regina and she has lost Robin, so I can see him seeing himself where Regina is.

[Shanna Marie]

I suppose it also matters that Hook hasn't been around to see Regina's lapses, just as a lot of his failings have been private. If he hadn't confessed to Emma about falling back on his old ways, he would have just looked like the big hero here, and anyone who didn't hear his confession (it was just Emma in the room at the time, right?) might not be aware of his backsliding. No one but Ariel knows about his failing in the missing year. Just as no one else really got to see Regina snapping about Marian or doing what she did to Sydney. Hook may not even know that Regina was sleeping with Robin while his wife was frozen. All Hook has seen of Regina has been her helping them save Henry and her defeating Zelena and then showing her mercy. So if he's only seen Regina being good while he's aware of his own struggles, he might be worried.

[Mari]

I suppose it also matters that Hook hasn't been around to see Regina's lapses, just as a lot of his failings have been private. . . . All Hook has seen of Regina has been her helping them save Henry and her defeating Zelena and then showing her mercy. So if he's only seen Regina being good while he's aware of his own struggles, he might be worried.

Plus, Hook is far more self aware than Regina is. He's much more likely to recognize that he is backsliding and take it seriously. Unlike some reformed (for certain values of reformed) villains, he actually blames himself for doing evil things, and doesn't think he's a misunderstood victim.

It would make him more freaked out about devolving, because he sees himself becoming what he no longer wanted to be, and realizes what else he might've done.

[Shanna Marie]

Unlike some reformed (for certain values of reformed) villains, he actually blames himself for doing evil things, and doesn't think he's a misunderstood victim.

And this is where the logic of this plot totally breaks down. I could buy Regina having the misunderstood victim mentality and wanting to just jump to her happy ending by having some mystical author rewrite things for her, but they have all the other characters validating that belief, and now we even have tangible evidence that this Author person does exist and does have some power, since he's apparently locked behind that door drawing. And yet, in the same episode we see Hook realizing that he could be in danger of losing his happy ending not because of some book or Author, but because he isn't as reformed as he'd like to be and still tends to revert to his old villain ways even when he's trying to do good things, and it didn't seem to me like the show was saying he was wrong about this. It was meant to be a moment of growth for him when Ariel told him that the problem with villains was the way they went about trying to get their happy endings. And then we also had Ursula and Poseidon getting their happy ending while the Author's still locked up and Emma's heart still isn't dark, courtesy of Hook. But then after Ursula has received her happy ending she tells Hook that the only way for villains to get their happy endings is for Emma's heart to be filled with darkness.

 

So in the same episode we're told that villains can't get happy endings because of the Author and other stuff that has to happen, and yet we're also told that villains are responsible for their own problems because they go about things the wrong way and they can get happy endings on their own if they let go of the desire for things like revenge and instead put other people first.

 

I'm kind of hoping it's going to turn out that they're all wrong about the book and Author and it's a scam by Rumple to get something else, but he's just stolen Regina's concept and language to use it to manipulate the others, and the fact that Ursula got what she wanted without Rumple is proof. He has some other need for Emma to be dark, and it has nothing to do with Regina getting a happy ending. The only problem there is that it makes Emma look stupid for having bought into any of it instead of acting in character and saying you make your own fate and are responsible for your own life.

[Joenigma]

 

I'm kind of hoping it's going to turn out that they're all wrong about the book and Author and it's a scam by Rumple

Oh Man... I just had a cool thought. What if the Author is really the Big Bad Black Fairy that was banished and the Author made villains unhappy so they would seek her out and free her.

[DigitalCount]

I have to say, I was rather impressed at how seamlessly Hook and Ursula's stories fit together. I had to keep reminding myself that they were from two different stories, but I suppose it helps that she's a mermaid and he's a pirate, and that he's previously been associated with Ariel.

[Camera One]

Poseidon's wife died because of a pirate, so he wanted her daughter to lure pirates so they would shipwreck themselves?  Why didn't Poseidon just create a storm or a giant wave and down the pirate ship himself?  There's no reason why Hook should still be alive after this.

 

I think one of the reasons why I just couldn't get into this episode was that right from the start, I couldn't buy the scenario.  

 

Poseidon: Why did you let that ship go?

Ursula: I'm sorry, father, but I couldn't.
Poseidon: But I told you to.  And I'm Poseidon, king of the sea.

 

To me, that dialogue was just atrocious.  The relationship between Ursula/Poseidon was as roughly drawn as the one between Belle and her father.  I think the basics of the story were fine, with the stuff they revealed at the end about how listening to his wife's voice was too painful for Poseidon, but for me, the performances or the limited scenes we saw just wasn't enough to make the reunion at the end all that emotionally affecting.  

[jhlipton]

Awwwww URSULA'S HAPPY ENDING!!!! This episode was by far the most engaging of 4B, and I credit it all to Ursula getting her happy ending, which was awesome--though I'm PISSED we're apparently losing Ursula now. Way to squander all the potential with her, show!!!! Like seriously, what was even the point of writing her into this half-season? Loved young Ursula, the actress was really good, and Merrin Dungey was also very good in the present day. (Also, I'm sad my Ursula/Cruella crack ship just got torpedoed!)

- They did not kill off the people of color this episode. And they got a happy ending. Bravo!

Ursula has been the least used of the QoD, and they've effectively written yet another woman of color off the show. She (and her dad) didn't die (which is a good thing) but I doubt they're coming back.

 

 

How did August know that the dragon was looking for the author for years? And how did he know to grab his research or understand anything about the book? Wasn't he all wooden legged and trying to find a cure at the time? So they're saying that rather than getting his ass to Storybrooke as quickly as possible, he went back to the dragon's place and somehow carried off all of his research knowing that it was connected to a book that didn't yet exist or show itself to anyone until almost 20 years after he'd arrived in this world.

Wasn't August running from Tamara after she killed The Dragon (in yet another incredibly stupid scene)? I seem to recall him wanting to get out of Stereotypical Asian Land as quick as possible, which would preclude going back for noted, even if he knew they existed.

 

 

So now, the fairies have an "ample supply of magic"?  Uh, if so, why don't they use it for anything?  Why would they bother having potions to "temporarily reverse any spell" they cast, if they're not casting any spells?   And of course, the Fairies are dumb enough to just leave it lying around, because heroes are all stupid.

Too bad they didn't have a "reverse any spell" once to make Pinocchio into August so he could tell them about Tamara! SMH!

Of course Hook thinks Woegina is a hero now!

 

=================================================

 

ETA: Killian, Emma is a "Hero" and you're obviously part of her "happy ending" so just relax for a minute, mmkay?

Edited March 29, 2015 by jhlipton

[kingshearte]

I don't think Belle was acting like she didn't care about Rumple being back and having the dagger. I think she's just gone numb about him, like she's just all out of outrage over him because how much worse can he be than he already has been? She had such a sad resignation about her when she muttered about how she'd thought he couldn't betray her any worse. Ah, but he can.

I agree. It didn't seem like indifference to me; just emotional exhaustion. He's disappointed her so many times that she's way past visible emotional freakouts about it. Which I actually think is kind of good, because it's generally harder to reawaken any kind of passion or love in someone who's reached that point than in someone who still rages every time you hurt them, so I'm hoping that means she won't take him back.

[OnceUponAJen]

ETA: Killian, Emma is a "Hero" and you're obviously part of her "happy ending" so just relax for a minute, mmkay?

I think so too, but Hook is obviously not as secure about her feelings for him. So, I hope she will man up (so to speak) and make it clear to him so that we can get Captain Innuendo back ;)

[jhlipton]

I think so too, but Hook is obviously not as secure about her feelings for him. So, I hope she will man up (so to speak) and make it clear to him so that we can get Captain Innuendo back ;)

 

The point I'm making isn't about Hook per se.  It's that Emma as the Biggest Hero should get the best happy ending.  So what happens if her HE is the same as a villain's?

 

I wonder if anyone brought this up in the Writer's Room.  "Say, if villains can't get HEs, what happens if a Hero falls in love with a Villain?  Haven't we created a paradox here?"  (With TS, TW, I doubt it!)

[Delphi]

One could look at Belle. She fell in love with an evil man, I refuse to use the v word, and as such it doesn't really look like she's getting her happy ending right now. So it's possible that reforming is all that it really takes so Emma gets to keep Hook. But I'm not of the mind that Hook is Emma's happy ending as a whole but finally being around a family and people that care about her is. Not everyone's happy ending has to be with a lover and I think it's super misconstrued of the writers to suggest that's the case.

[YaddaYadda]

I don't think they're suggesting that being with a man is for everyone.  Ursula's happy ending was getting her voice back because it represented her mother and she and her father finally moved on from the ugliness.

 

Emma found her son, has her parents and a man who loves her.  As a whole that's pretty great, everything else for someone like Emma is probably gravy.  These are all things she never thought she would have.  The pilot was her making a wish that she would not spend her birthday alone.  I know they don't really celebrate birthdays on the show, but she's had two of them where she's had people who cared about her.

Edited March 30, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[jhlipton]

I've had the same thought. We can assume that if a hero and villain have conflicting happy endings that the happy ending of the hero trumps the other, but what if it is not a conflict. If Emma and Regina both want the same thing, wouldn't it be safe to assume that Emma's status as a hero trumps Regina's semi-redeemed status? However, if Hook's happy ending is Emma and Emma's is Hook, then what happens? Is Hook going to be punished because of a villainous past and Emma gets punished by proxy?  

 

Is it then based on who is furthest in their own spectrum? Is Emma more of a hero than Hook is a villain? Is there a point scale?

 

 

Good post but one point:  NOTHING (and NO-ONE) trumps Woegina's semi-redeemed status!

[KingOfHearts]

Why didn't Rumple put a protection spell around the cabin? Is Cruella really going to stop any incoming threats with her snark and Dr. Doolittle smoke?

Edited April 6, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Joanh23]

Interesting fact from this episode - on the audio commentary the director said that the scene with Regina and Robin was only added after the network insisted on it - they (the network) were afraid that the audience would forget about Robin and so they wanted him to appear in an episode before Heart of Gold.  I always thought that scene didn't really fit in with the rest of the episode and now I know why!

[YaddaYadda]

That's probably why the scene didn't make much sense either. I did a re-watch of this episode a few days ago and I had totally forgotten about that scene for one and then still didn't get the whole EQ trying to protect Robin from Regina.  It made zero sense.

[KingOfHearts]

I could see the network's concern, but I agree that scene made no sense. Of course, it's easy to forget Robin even when we do see him. lol.

Edited August 21, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

No wonder it made no sense, especially Regina asking for Emma's help to find Robin after seeing that "vision"! It was just cobbled together at the last minute.

Edited August 21, 2015 by Rumsy4

[YaddaYadda]

Find Robin when Regina gave him the keys of Neal's place (huh, what?) which means yeah, she knew where he was and he also had a cell phone which she called.

[Curio]

Interesting fact from this episode - on the audio commentary the director said that the scene with Regina and Robin was only added after the network insisted on it - they (the network) were afraid that the audience would forget about Robin and so they wanted him to appear in an episode before Heart of Gold.

Hey, OUAT writers: you might be doing something wrong with your plotting/characterization when the network has to intervene and remind y'all that you probably shouldn't ignore one of your main characters for a long period of time.

 

It's laughable how much of an afterthought Robin and Outlaw Queen are for the writers. Didn't Robin and Regina's crypt sex scene get added in as an afterthought too when ABC demanded that episode become a 2-hour event?

 

No wonder it made no sense, especially Regina asking for Emma's help to find Robin after seeing that "vision"! It was just cobbled together at the last minute.

 

You have no idea how much this still bugs me. Regina, you had the freaking Internet, Robin's cell phone number, and Ingrid's scroll at your disposal the entire time he was gone! I'm pretty sure if you really wanted to find him, you could have done a simple Google search and found him in 6 hours.

 

Edit: I totally forgot Regina gave Robin the keys to the apartment. God, 4B was such a huge mess.

Edited August 21, 2015 by Curio

[YaddaYadda]

It's having to add that scene that messed up the continuity of the rest.  the writers didn't go back to fix the rest or they just didn't care enough to fix it. 

 

They could have done less clumsily than this. I don't even know why I care about this.

Edited August 21, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[Curio]

I just went back and read some of the first posts in this episode thread right after the episode aired. Basically, everyone called bullshit on Hook being nervous about losing his happy ending literally right after he saw Ursula receive hers. At the time, it made no sense to us, but

I can now see the writers letting their knowledge of the season finale affecting how they wrote this episode. To the characters and the audience, it makes no sense why Hook should feel this way, but the writers let their knowledge of Emma sacrificing herself influence the way they wrote the scene. To them, they probably saw it as foreshadowing. To us, it's a convoluted mess.

[KAOS Agent]

 

Hey, OUAT writers: you might be doing something wrong with your plotting/characterization when the network has to intervene and remind y'all that you probably shouldn't ignore one of your main characters for a long period of time.

 

Actually, it's my guess that the network's research department had some analysis of 4A by that time and Robin didn't register well at all. He's not much of a character in his own right and the adultery stuff wouldn't have raised the opinions of the general audience about him. Once he was offscreen, I don't think there were a whole lot of people thinking about Robin Hood and demanding his return. I'm not sure the rather jarring sequence in this episode helped bring him back into people's minds. If anything, it was a reminder of how much of a nonentity Robin is and how not exciting an entire episode featuring him would be. Shockingly, "Heart of Gold" delivered the lowest ratings ever for the show.

 

It's kind of funny that this is the second Outlaw Queen scene that has seemed really out of place in an episode. The whole "bold & audacious" scene seemed equally out of place in "Quiet Minds" They just seem to get shoved in anywhere rather than trying to work things in organically - although obviously if the network says jump, Once will jump.

[Kimmature]

Still binge watching this season, and I think that it might have been better to wait a week between episodes.  I'm still giving thanks that Elsa and Anna are gone (at least for the moment.)

 

I'm becoming much less fond of the 'your destiny is predetermined' storylines.  Yes, there may be an 'author' or a God, but if everything is predestined then how you live your life really doesn't matter.  

 

Margene's and Josh's reactions to having an adult daughter just seems a bit weird, to say the least.  No matter what your parenting skills are (and they haven't shown many), at some point, it's a bit healthy to stop being quite so invested in your child's life.  Other people don't give you 'happy endings' (although I do still giggle a bit whenever I hear that phrase)...you create them for yourself.  Biology is not destiny, no matter what Star Wars tries to tell you. 

 

And the Disney/ABC thing is getting worse.  At this point I'm actually hoping that Chris Harrison is the Sorcerer. 

 

Still love the actors, and have huge crushes on many of the characters.  The stories just aren't keeping up with the talent that they have available to them. 

[Curio]

I'm becoming much less fond of the 'your destiny is predetermined' storylines. Yes, there may be an 'author' or a God, but if everything is predestined then how you live your life really doesn't matter.

 

This is what makes Season 4 nearly un-watchable for me; the stories and lessons they set up didn't make any sense. But it's interesting that you mention this in the "Poor Unfortunate Soul" episode thread because this was the one episode in the second half of Season 4 that actually went against the whole predestination idea. Hook gave Ursula her happy ending on his own without any author's help, which seems to go against everything Regina and the writers have been telling the audience. The predestination storyline ruined Season 4 for me, but if it makes you feel any better,

they basically drop that entire storyline and prove it false by Season 5. Which kind of makes all those episodes in Season 4 a complete waste of time and a joke to our intelligence, but at least you have something better to look forward to.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Curio

[Shanna Marie]

This is the only episode from this arc that I'd ever rewatched before this rewatch, and I still like a lot about it. Hook and both old and young Ursula have a nice rapport. In fact, that scene between Hook and Ursula in that franchise of Ye Olde Tavern had a really natural sense about it. Every so often in movies or TV, there's a scene that seems so natural that I can almost forget I'm watching actors and I feel like I'm eavesdropping on people just talking -- it's like the actors have immersed themselves in their characters and internalized the script, and they manage to make it sound like they just happen to be hanging out and chatting rather than playing a scene. This scene felt like that, which is rare for a "costume" piece that makes it harder to forget that it's fake. I think part of it was that this may have been the most relaxed we've ever seen Hook. He's so at ease chatting with Ursula. You feel like he really likes her and is pulling for her, which makes the way things work out even sadder.

I really like that Hook is trying to atone for the wrongs he's done, unlike certain other people who expect a happy ending to be given to them. I suppose it would have been better if Hook had decided to try helping Ursula as soon as she showed up rather than making it a quid pro quo thing, but at least his swap was for the greater good rather than something for him, and it was complicated getting the Jolly Roger. I'm not sure she'd have trusted him if he'd just approached her and told her he would give her voice back if she brought the Jolly Roger. She'd have thought there was a catch or that he just wanted his ship back if he hadn't asked for something else in return. Plus, he did sell the ship fair and square, so unless there was some more pressing need to take it back, it would have been theft (but I think he gets it free and clear now since Elsa confiscated it from Blackbeard, and I'm sure if she knew it was Hook's ship, she'd have gladly given it to him. She does kind of owe him, since he was the one who got out the urn).

And I still love the interaction between Hook and Ariel. I wish we could have had some kind of sea adventure where Hook gets to call on the allies he's made along the way, including Ariel, Ursula, and Poseidon.

But they sort of undermined their arc plot in having Ariel quite reasonably point out that it isn't that villains aren't allowed happy endings, it's that they go about them the wrong way. That may not directly apply to Regina, but then there is the fact that she only had a chance with Robin in the first place because she took his wife away from him, and a true hero wouldn't want to benefit from her own past evil like that. As far as I'm concerned, if Regina were really a hero, she'd have backed off from Robin entirely instead of acting like she's entitled to him. And given this show and these writers, I'm sure that the parallel they meant for Hook helping Ursula get her happy ending was that the people responsible for "making" the villains are responsible for giving the villains' happy endings back, so that's why Snow is working to help Regina find the Author (since she can't bring Daniel back), and Emma is responsible for Regina losing Robin by saving Marian, so she has to atone by helping.

I don't think I've watched this after seeing season 5 and later, and it gets weird in retrospect.

Spoiler

For instance, I wonder if they'd planned the Dark Hook arc when there was the talk about how Hook wished he'd plunged the dagger into the Dark One and Emma pointed out that then his name would have been on it. Foreshadowing, or did that bit give them the idea?

They seem to have changed their reason for Rumple to want Emma to be dark along the way. Here, it's about how the Savior brought about the happy endings, so the Author can't change things here. But later Isaac is able to change things and the darkness is that he needs Dark Savior blood for ink. Or is it only in this world that they need Dark Savior blood for ink to change things? I still don't understand anything about how the Author stuff works.

It's hard to believe they put Belle and Rumple back together after this and her weary resignation and emotional exhaustion about how much he's betrayed her.

[tennisgurl]

This is one of the few episodes during this arc that I have fond memories of, and while it certainly has its faults, I still think it holds up pretty well. Hook has a great rapport with both flashback Ursula and modern Ursula, and its always fun to see Ernie Hudson show up as Neptune, cheap looking costumes and all! And while I think that everyone was a bit too forgiving of Ursula and her just kinda going off with dad, I can see why they would just take this as a win without worrying about any further apology baskets or anything. Her turn to evil was so quick, and we hardly even saw her really do anything villainous, I felt like we got a bit short changed with Ursula. I did appreciate that both she and her dad admitted to making bad choices, and kept up their end of the bargain. And its just great seeing Hook really trying to make amends, and that it ended with everyone getting a win.

Spoiler

Its hard not to see this episode not think of episodes where Regina is confronted with someone she wronged in her past, and how it normally goes. Like with Sir Percival, or the Count. It usually involves her making tons of excuses and complaining about how annoying it is that people are messing with her new life, and they usually die, and things get worse. Here, Hook admits that he did wrong and tries to help Ursula, and he gets some information, Ursula goes back to the side of good and gets her voice, and she and her dad reconcile. Wins all around!

Honestly, I totally forgot that Ariel was even in this episode until she showed up! I guess Elsa's powers have really grown since we saw her a week ago! Its nice that they found a way to work her into the Ursula story, but does she even know her? I mean, Regina is the one who messed with her, not this Ursula. But, always happy to see her around! I also liked the touch that the song that was stolen from Ursula sounds like the song that was stolen from Ariel in the cartoon. 

Really, this just made me want to watch an episode thats just a sea faring adventure with Hook, Ariel, Eric, Poseidon, and Ariel. Like, he has to sail around and ends up getting help from them all as he crosses the sea, that sounds awesome!

[Shanna Marie]

On 3/8/2019 at 7:52 PM, Shanna Marie said:

I think part of it was that this may have been the most relaxed we've ever seen Hook. He's so at ease chatting with Ursula.

It only just occurred to me over the weekend that he said that hearing her song had eased his troubled soul (or something like that) for the first time in more than a century. So of course he would seem all mellowed out and different from his normal level of intensity. Nice work by Colin subtly playing what was in the dialogue. I've watched this episode several times, and every time I've noticed how unusually mellow and relaxed Hook is, and only now did I realize that he actually talked about the effect the song had on him, so duh, of course he was different.

13 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I guess Elsa's powers have really grown since we saw her a week ago!

I think it's been about six weeks since we saw her last, so she's had plenty of time to level up. I mean, if one magic lesson can make someone the most powerful ever, what could she do in six weeks?

13 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Its nice that they found a way to work her into the Ursula story, but does she even know her? I mean, Regina is the one who messed with her, not this Ursula.

I would think that a mermaid would know about Poseidon's daughter who used to be a mermaid but turned herself into some tentacled monster. Even if she'd never met her, that seems like the sort of thing mermaids would talk about. Word would have spread among the sea folk.

It really is a pity that we didn't get more info on Ursula. This episode would have been more powerful if before her redemption we'd seen more of what evil she'd done. She must have been pretty bad if she was one of the people Rumple summoned with most potential for darkness (then again, Emma was considered to have the most potential for darkness and she wasn't bad, so was Ursula more like Emma, more potential for darkness than actual darkness?). The only really bad thing we saw her do was help kidnap Belle, and then I guess attempting to kill Hook, but in that situation he kind of had it coming. We should have at least once seen her at the height of her power as a sea monster. It seemed like Hook must have had at least one encounter with her after her transformation for him to keep talking about what a hideous sea monster beast she was, given that the last time we see him seeing her, she's still an innocent mermaid, and when he ran into her in Storybrooke she was showing no sign of what she was. I don't think Ursula alone could have sustained an arc, but she could have been a lot more developed than she was. I like the character, and I like what the actress did with her.

[daxx]

Finally catching up. I enjoed this episode. It’s always nice to see Ariel slapping Hook again. I enjoyed seeing emilie almost blowing the scene where will comments on the size of Hook’s ship.

The part about happy endings was sweet at the end.