S04.E08: Tad & Loreen & Avi & Shanaz

[marny]

I feel like Cleo's parents wouldn't be up in arms about the piercing thing.  At this point, among that age group, piercings and tattoos are pretty commonplace-- particularly among the kind of NYC kids who go to the kind of school the show is depicting.  So whereas my parents would have murdered me, hers would probably shrug and think its about "individuality" and "creativity" or whatever.  I assume that scene was more to show the audience how inappropriately comfortable Hannah is with her students, but not as a set up that will bite her in the ass careerwise.

[FozzyBear]

I'm not surprised Hannah didn't show better judgment about the piercing. As a teacher, I see newbies come in and while most of them are very professional and have no desire to be the "cool, hip teacher" who is everybody's buddy, there's always the one who's just that insecure, who'll go to student parties, who'll pick them up at 2 am and let them crash on their couch, who will get over involved in the students' personal lives - and not in a caring adult way. Those teachers are generally spotted and fired pretty quickly.

[Of course we have one teacher at our school who would overshare in the classroom about her romantic relationships and ramble on about how her weekend was "epic," and then blurt out loudly in the hallway about some guy she had sex with…she's on the Admin team now. (We're all baffled and honestly just assume she lowered boundaries with a boss and slept with someone to get where she is because she is dumb as a rock.)]

Hannah is immature and self-centered enough not to understand that rules and procedures also apply to her as well. The school system, just like the Iowa Writer's Workshop, have conspired to keep her down.

So for the Wedding of the Century, who do you think will be more insane: Shosh or Marnie's mom?

I've come to the conclusion in life after working in a few schools that while most teachers are professionals there is

I'm not surprised Hannah didn't show better judgment about the piercing. As a teacher, I see newbies come in and while most of them are very professional and have no desire to be the "cool, hip teacher" who is everybody's buddy, there's always the one who's just that insecure, who'll go to student parties, who'll pick them up at 2 am and let them crash on their couch, who will get over involved in the students' personal lives - and not in a caring adult way. Those teachers are generally spotted and fired pretty quickly.

[Of course we have one teacher at our school who would overshare in the classroom about her romantic relationships and ramble on about how her weekend was "epic," and then blurt out loudly in the hallway about some guy she had sex with…she's on the Admin team now. (We're all baffled and honestly just assume she lowered boundaries with a boss and slept with someone to get where she is because she is dumb as a rock.)]

Hannah is immature and self-centered enough not to understand that rules and procedures also apply to her as well. The school system, just like the Iowa Writer's Workshop, have conspired to keep her down.

So for the Wedding of the Century, who do you think will be more insane: Shosh or Marnie's mom?

I've come to the conclusion in life after working in a few schools that while most teachers are professionals there is a certain type of person who gets into teaching, high school, because they never matured past being a teenager. That's how you get teachers that do drugs with their students or have sex with them.

[Muffyn]

I'm assuming they intended for the audience to fast forward thru the piercing scene.   My mother only let us get our ears pierced at the doctor, and I still almost passed out.  Jesus people actually go to these places?  And don't die of tetanus or some gross infection? 

The piercing place was pretty unrealistic and definitely played up for drama/disgustingness (yes, I am making up words).  In reality, they would have had to sign a contract to agree to the piercing, her ID would have been checked (and she would have been rejected if she was underage), the piercer would examine the area to be pierced to determine if it was a good choice/could be done safely, would have described how it is done and guided her through the procedure.  Also, the needles are taken out of fresh packages and the jewelry and forceps are sterilized.  Also, she would have been sent home with after care instructions.  I am sure there are a few places that don't hold to these standards, but all of the ones I have been to or I know people who have been to do.   (So if you're getting a piercing and they are not upholding these standards, move on). 

 

With that said, the whole thought of almost randomly deciding on a piercing shows a level of maturity for both Hannah and the student that is really low.  Hannah seems to be happily reverting back to high school or even junior high behavior.  As many have pointed out, she is focusing on being the cool, popular teacher, not on being a good teacher.  Now let me see if I can finish my half a haiku.  

Edited March 9, 2015 by Muffyn

[Pogojoco]

And the ten thousand dollar question is, how did Elijah know? Was it 'dar, or did he have some first hand knowledge or see Hannah's Dad at one of the gay bars?

From what I understand (from a straight female perspective) gay men  are attuned to reading these sorts of things as a way to source prospective partners and also to not approach someone and get their teeth kicked in. It's a sex and survival instinct. Also, some gay men can spot closet cases because they know other closet cases and/or they were closet cases themselves. 

 

I remember years ago on Oprah there was an episode about black men who live "on the down low": meaning while they have straight relationships and consider themselves straight, they still have sex with men. The guy on the show said he could pick other "on the down low" guys just by looking at them. 

 

Given what I know about Elijah, I'd say he prob evaluates most people he meets as "I would/could sleep with" and "I wouldn't/couldn't sleep with". 

[babs1226]

When my daughter was 16 and wanted to get her navel pierced, I not only had to be with her, but I had to bring her birth certificate and my id so I could prove I was her mother.  I guess things are a little more laid back in NYC.

[AmandaPanda]

I don't what this means but I was more appalled by Fran wearing a T-shirt to school than the pierced freneculum.  I haven't been in a high school in 35 years, do teachers really wear (just) T-shirts in school now?

 

I'm a social worker in a pre-school and definitely wear T-shirts and jeans at least once a week, normally on Fridays. Most of my teachers wear more casual clothing every day.

[Cherpumple]

I could have watched an entire episode just of the dinner party with the crazy academics. That was a hoot! I especially love the actress who was the hostess; she's always great to watch (I think she was the snarky pregnant co-worker in "Kissing Jessica Stein"). And thanks to whoever identified John Lithgow's son- now I have to rewatch to pay more attention, since I obviously didn't recognise him since his 3rd Rock from the Sun days.

[huahaha]

Hannah's mom: I don't feel bad for you.

 

Why not? Her husband blew up their life of 30 years together.

[txhorns79]

From what I understand (from a straight female perspective) gay men  are attuned to reading these sorts of things as a way to source prospective partners and also to not approach someone and get their teeth kicked in.

 

My guess it that Elijah was just messing with Hannah's mind at the time, and he ended up being right.  Though I will say, we don't really know what kind of interactions he and her dad may have had, so I suppose anything is possible. 

 

 

Why not? Her husband blew up their life of 30 years together.

 

Yeah, I have to agree.  Even if she eventually makes her peace with it, this would be a pretty huge blow. 

[CofCinci]

I can understand why Hannah was hanging out with the student. Poor Hannah has no friends except for Elijah and is probably lonely.

[FozzyBear]

I could have watched an entire episode just of the dinner party with the crazy academics. That was a hoot! I especially love the actress who was the hostess; she's always great to watch (I think she was the snarky pregnant co-worker in "Kissing Jessica Stein"). And thanks to whoever identified John Lithgow's son- now I have to rewatch to pay more attention, since I obviously didn't recognise him since his 3rd Rock from the Sun days.

Hehe. That was fantastic. And pretty spot on. Academics can be a crazy, competitive, kind of debauched bunch. Especially in cities where the university serves as the main center of culture, it can be like eavesdropping on Versailles. Sigh. LD is so good with dialog and so piss poor at character development.

Edited March 10, 2015 by FozzyBear

[lovinbob]

Why not? Her husband blew up their life of 30 years together.

Yes, I guess you're right. I think my gut was reacting to the way she acted out throughout much of the episode, which rubbed me the wrong way. Plus, her own affair is a pretty big deal, so she's not a pure victim here.

 

And I really don't believe she should have told Hannah in that moment, considering the state she was in, and the state her husband was in. They were not ready to share the news with Hannah. If she needed someone to lean on to share the news with at that moment, it should not have been her woman-child daughter who's basically incapable of empathy anyway.

[txhorns79]

Yes, I guess you're right. I think my gut was reacting to the way she acted out throughout much of the episode, which rubbed me the wrong way. Plus, her own affair is a pretty big deal, so she's not a pure victim here.

 

I think her one night stand, or whatever that was with the other guy, is kind of immaterial.  Her husband isn't announcing he's had an affair and it's over.  He's told her that he's gay. To me, that calls into question their entire relationship, and raises the question as to what was real and what was him pretending.  I mean, I think a married couple can work through an affair and emerge stronger.  One spouse announcing that they are gay is something that would probably be difficult to get past.          

[hoodooznoodooz]

And I really don't believe she should have told Hannah in that moment, considering the state she was in, and the state her husband was in. They were not ready to share the news with Hannah. If she needed someone to lean on to share the news with at that moment, it should not have been her woman-child daughter who's basically incapable of empathy anyway.

This might be the reason we even have a TV show called "Girls." Most of the girls' parents are really bad role models themselves. They are impulsive, self-absorbed or immature. No wonder the main characters behave the way they do.

[Cherpumple]

Also, Hannah's mother was clearly still feeling vindictive towards her husband, and probably wanted to rob him of his chance to tell Hannah in his own time. This is somewhat understandable, but also impulsive and immature as stated above. I don't blame her, but it wasn't the best thing to do. Now I'm dreading watching how Hannah will turn this into being "all about Hannah."

 

Re the dinner party, I loved how they kept referring to their children saying she's "a creative", not as an adjective, but a noun. It was so pretentious it cracked me up. Even when John Lithgow jr. said his daughter did meth but it could be worse, and the host asked "how?", he responded "well, she's a creative" and the guy easily agreed that a meth-head NON creative would definitely be worse. Ha!

[peeayebee]

Also, Hannah's mother was clearly still feeling vindictive towards her husband, and probably wanted to rob him of his chance to tell Hannah in his own time. This is somewhat understandable, but also impulsive and immature as stated above. 

I think she would have handed the phone over to Tad if Hannah had stopped talking. "Your father has something to tell you." But Hannah was not listening at all, completely wrapped up in her own drama, and Loreen lost her patience. She was pissed and sad before the call, feeling at sea after Tad's revelation, and then her self-absorbed daughter yaks on and on about her petty problems which pale in comparison to Loreen's. I agree she shouldn't have been the one to break the news, but it's understandable why she let it out.

[Pogojoco]

Hannah's mom was pretty much at the end of her tether in general. And in the moment, I'd say she outed Hannah's dad to shut Hannah up (finally.) 

[tennisgurl]

I totally should have known Hannah would be that teacher (or sub) who gets WAY too tight with their students, to a weird, unprofessional degree. How did she think that going out to get a piercing with one of her students was a good idea? But, yeah, in retrospect, its totally a Hannah thing to do. She kind of still acts like a high school girl who longs to be a cool kid, so of course she tries to become best friends with a cool kid. I totally knew teachers in high school like that, who basically wanted to be in high school again. It was always awkward and unprofessional. My new favorite reaction to Hannah is when Hannah is rambling about the "new misogyny" or whatever, and the other teacher just sighed and walked away. That was awesome. 

 

Marni and Desi are gross. I was all excited that Marnie told Desi what a dumbass he was, then she ruins it by accepted his proposal. All for a music partnership that sounds like every other couple that sing sin coffee bars, everywhere. 

 

I feel sad about Hanna's parents. However, I am always up for wacky academics. More please.  

[huahaha]

Marni and Desi are gross. I was all excited that Marnie told Desi what a dumbass he was, then she ruins it by accepted his proposal. All for a music partnership that sounds like every other couple that sing sin coffee bars, everywhere. 

 

They sound like every other couple, but they look like J Crew models. Plus, they're "in love." I can see why record execs might be into that. Easy press.

[Pallas]

My guess it that Elijah was just messing with Hannah's mind at the time, and he ended up being right.  Though I will say, we don't really know what kind of interactions he and her dad may have had, so I suppose anything is possible.

 

Back in Iowa City, Elijah did look uncharacteristically pensive, even circumspect, when Hannah asked if he wanted to go out to dinner with her and father.  It may only mean that he was forced to revisit his intuition that Tad is gay (I wouldn't be surprised if Elijah forgot altogether that he had ever mentioned this to Hannah); it may mean more.  But it seemed to me that Andrew Rannells was playing something.  

[TattleTeeny]

I was wondering the same thing.  Is it bad writing and acting?  Is this frickin behavior supposed to be cute or relate-able?  To whom?   She has to face repercussions for this one.  Then again, she's been doing crap across all the seasons and still seems to skate along as a princess in la-la land.

 

I've never watched this show (or many others, for that matter) with the impression that viewers are supposed to agree with any behavior a character exhibits (or find necessarily find it cute and/or relatable*). In fact, I'm fairly sure we're supposed to feel the opposite regarding much of these particular characters' antics. I don't think that, just because a main character on a show does something--anything--it doesn't mean that the show's creators are telling up it is a good/right thing. I also don't see Hannah skating along necessarily, either.  

 

* As for "relatable," though: I don't see an issue with that either; viewers don't "relate to" a TV character only because they (the viewers) have behaved or do behave like that character does; viewers can just as easily "relate" if they knew someone who has done similar shit. 

Edited March 11, 2015 by TattleTeeny

[TattleTeeny]

When my daughter was 16 and wanted to get her navel pierced, I not only had to be with her, but I had to bring her birth certificate and my id so I could prove I was her mother.  I guess things are a little more laid back in NYC.

Not really; NY and NJ have very similar standards to what a poster above mentioned (though I am not so naive to believe that there are not very crappy tattoo/piercing venues). As a rule, these places are required to do these things for the safety of their customers and their businesses. I doubt what we saw on this episode has anything to do with NY being generally more laid back in this regard. You couldn't even legally get a tattoo at all in NY until relatively recently and many, many places won't do it at all if you're underaged, whether you're with a parent or not. (I realize that no one got a tattoo in this episode but the the two things are often done in the same shops.)

OOOH, SORRY! I meant to add this to the last post and not make a whole new one!

Edited March 11, 2015 by TattleTeeny

[chocolatine]

I feel like Cleo's parents wouldn't be up in arms about the piercing thing.  At this point, among that age group, piercings and tattoos are pretty commonplace-- particularly among the kind of NYC kids who go to the kind of school the show is depicting.  So whereas my parents would have murdered me, hers would probably shrug and think its about "individuality" and "creativity" or whatever.

 

 

It depends on how much Cleo tells them. If she tells them the whole story - that her substitute teacher of a few weeks took her to the piercing parlor, chose the frenulum as the body part to be pierced, said they were getting "best friendulum" piercings, didn't intervene when Cleo was screaming in pain, and finally backed out of getting the piercing herself - I think that even the most bohemian NYC parents are going to be appalled.

[canter]

I didn't really get why Marnie was SO upset with Desi about buying the guitar pedals. They aren't yet at the relationship stage where they have shared finances, right? So if they got a $2000 advance, they should each get $1000, and if he chooses to spend his whole portion plus another $1000 of his own money on guitar pedals, who cares?

I just didn't get why she immediately assumed he spent *their* advance, including her share, on that stuff. I admit I haven't paid super close attention to the last few episodes though, so maybe I missed something.

[chocolatine]

I just didn't get why she immediately assumed he spent *their* advance, including her share, on that stuff.

 

Maybe because she knows that he doesn't have any other money?

[Hecate7]

Maybe because she didn't get any money?

[canter]

True. I guess I'm thinking of it with an adult brain with reasoning capabilities and logistical stuff like contracts as a given, where she'd be protected from him even being able to blow her half of the advance. I should know by now not to expect such thinking from the girls on this show.

[Hecate7]

True. I guess I'm thinking of it with an adult brain with reasoning capabilities and logistical stuff like contracts as a given, where she'd be protected from him even being able to blow her half of the advance. I should know by now not to expect such thinking from the girls on this show.

 

A man like Desi is going to abide by a contract he made with a girl? How is it her fault if he took the check written to BOTH of them, and cashed it and spent it himself? I'm thinking this is on him, actually.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Hecate7

[nachomama]

How long do we think Marnie has actually been dating Desi? Not the cheating around his ex girlfriend. They have not even been an official coupel for as long as Hannah was in Iowa, this happened after or around when Hannah came back. I know there is time lapse, Adam got a chick pregnant...Hannah had a life change to become a teacher. But still can't be long.

[canter]

A man's going to abide by a contract? A man like Desi? How is it her fault if he took the check written to BOTH of them, and cashed it and spent it himself? I'm thinking this is on him, actually.

I don't know what you mean by the first question, but regarding the rest, that's what I meant about possibly having missed some stuff. I don't have a good sense of how long they've been a couple, but from what I had gathered, it's not long. Not long enough to have a shared bank account, anyway. Can you even write a single check to two people with separate bank accounts? (Sorry if that's a dumb question, I really don't know.)

Yes, Desi was a jerk to spend the money, but I would think they would have it set up so advances are paid out to each of them equally, rather than having checks written to Desi and trusting him to split it with her. It's naive to do otherwise. I would say maybe this will be a learning experience for Marnie, but she accepted his marriage proposal, so it looks like ... nope, not so much.

[nachomama]

If Desi and Marnie are not represented by an agent who the check should go to first, then the agent divi it up. But as far as advances go (and clearly I'm no expert on any topic really) it's not really payment to either of them, it's money to an entity, yes they could pay themselves with it but the idea is for expenses and/or equipment. $2000 is really a measly amount for an advance anyway. 

[Hecate7]

If Desi and Marnie are not represented by an agent who the check should go to first, then the agent divi it up. But as far as advances go (and clearly I'm no expert on any topic really) it's not really payment to either of them, it's money to an entity, yes they could pay themselves with it but the idea is for expenses and/or equipment. $2000 is really a measly amount for an advance anyway. 

 

It is a very small amount for an advance. The check was most likely made out to whatever entity their band is. Desi most likely accepted, cashed, and spent the check. They do not have a joint account, but I'll bet there's some little joint account made up for the band as an entity, with no money in it because Desi has access to it and spent it all. They may not be working with an agent right now, because they are so new. Or they might have an agent but no clear contract. OR the contract might actually specify that Desi has the right to decide how the money is split.

 

Desi probably feels entitled to all the money because he's the more established name, and does not value Marnie's contributions as a vocalist or lyricist enough to actually split the money with her. Marnie has very little confidence or self esteem, and this experience isn't going to help much with that.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Hecate7

[Petunia13]

The piercing place was pretty unrealistic and definitely played up for drama/disgustingness (yes, I am making up words). In reality, they would have had to sign a contract to agree to the piercing, her ID would have been checked (and she would have been rejected if she was underage), the piercer would examine the area to be pierced to determine if it was a good choice/could be done safely, would have described how it is done and guided her through the procedure. Also, the needles are taken out of fresh packages and the jewelry and forceps are sterilized. Also, she would have been sent home with after care instructions. I am sure there are a few places that don't hold to these standards, but all of the ones I have been to or I know people who have been to do. (So if you're getting a piercing and they are not upholding these standards, move on).

With that said, the whole thought of almost randomly deciding on a piercing shows a level of maturity for both Hannah and the student that is really low. Hannah seems to be happily reverting back to high school or even junior high behavior. As many have pointed out, she is focusing on being the cool, popular teacher, not on being a good teacher. Now let me see if I can finish my half a haiku.

When my daughter was 16 and wanted to get her navel pierced, I not only had to be with her, but I had to bring her birth certificate and my id so I could prove I was her mother. I guess things are a little more laid back in NYC.

Maybe. But when I was 15 I got my tongue pierced at The Alley in Chicago and that wasn't a seedy place and is kinda well known. I mean maybe if you go in with balls and a college age person and mid school day like they did or I did then it adds legitimacy.