Spoilers and Discussion

[caracas1914]

Regarding why so many folks got dropped in season four, wasn't there some spinoff that RM was pushing for, then Fox said no and that's why we ended up with a split narrative?

 

Let me give it a shot.

 

I doubt we'll ever know all the details,  but there was talk of a NY spin off between seasons two and three but that was jettisoned once the press made it sound like Chris, Lea and Cory were being "fired" after season 3.  This was based upon some public statements that Ryan Murphy had uttered regarding both the spin off and some of the characters graduating from high school.  It was a big snafu as apparently  nobody told the actors  (such as Chris the day of his Emmy nomination announcement)  what to say regarding being "fired" when confronted by the media:  so it seemed nobody was on the same page.  Depending on who said what, several people were blaming others  for the misunderstanding (For example, Ryan IIRC basically said Chris knew what was going on, refuting Chris public disavowals of ignorance)  It was dubbed by some fans "graduation gate".  FOX finally stepped in and said nobody was getting fired.

 

Regardless, the spinoff was then dead in the water.   However, by then  Ryan Murphy had publicly trumpeted that some of the ND kids *had* to graduate after 3 seasons, (among the reasons he stated was "realism") , what that translated to in Season 4 was that  some of those graduates were limited for all practical purposes to intermittent  "guest"  appearances (Amber, Harry,  Dianna and Mark)  or far less screen time (Lea, Chris and Naya). once shipped off to New York.

 

The 64,000 dollar question was whether FOX knew that was what precisely RM and company were going to do when they agreed to let the HS characters graduate after 3 seasons, or if what  happened sort of just evolved based upon the poor execution of the split narrative.  (Mileage varies if it truly was ever intended to be a genuine split narrative by the show runners.)   

 

So  in a sense the show painted themselves into a corner with the graduation.

 

Once the show decided to retain Lea, Chris and Naya it was a given there would be some sort of a split narrative.   IMO the irony was that there was never any genuine intention by FOX (nor GLEE) that Chris, Lea and Naya be fired or let go  after season 3 graduation, so it was a huge risk/gamble  to basically downgrade your leads for unproven new leads while still keeping those prior leads on the show in a reduced capacity.  Yet that is essentially what FOX (in hindsight) allowed Ryan and Company to do.

[bravelittletoaster]

That's a pretty good distillation as far as I know it [and I followed it all very closely at the time and also correctly predicted almost immediately when Murphy said the kids were graduating that the network had given them a spinoff].  It seemed that Dana cancelled the spinoff out of spite because she was so pissed off at how Ryan handled the situation, and although at the time it seemed a bit like cutting off your nose to spite your face, I'm sure in part she thought, "Do I really want to work with this ass clown on TWO shows?"  And he did make an epic mess out of it, so.

[tom87]

That's a pretty good distillation as far as I know it [and I followed it all very closely at the time and also correctly predicted almost immediately when Murphy said the kids were graduating that the network had given them a spinoff].  It seemed that Dana cancelled the spinoff out of spite because she was so pissed off at how Ryan handled the situation, and although at the time it seemed a bit like cutting off your nose to spite your face, I'm sure in part she thought, "Do I really want to work with this ass clown on TWO shows?"  And he did make an epic mess out of it, so.

 

Except Fox had already given Ryan a huge deal to do more shows for them  anyway.

 

I think it was cancelled cause they were afraid   getting rid of those 3 would hurt the main show too much.

Edited July 3, 2014 by tom87

[bravelittletoaster]

And yet Ryan basically did anyways.  To spite them, maybe?  Or just blinded by his own hubristic notion of himself as the star maker who could spin any shit into gold.

[camussie]

All of this mess went down in July before the third season.  In the first article RM said that Cory, Lea, and Chris were graduating and that he had talked to Lea and Chris but not Cory but he was sure he knew.  Then Chris got interviewed the next day due to his Emmy nom and he was circumspect saying he didn't know what was going to happen.  2-3 weeks later RM had another interview where he said that they had planned for a spin off and had begun discussing that with Cory, Lea, and Chris in March of season 2 (so March 2011) and were trying to keep a lid on things while they figured it out.  But now that the cat was out of the bag and the cast (read Chris) was implying they were blind-sided by the news that they would be off original recipe Glee, the spin-off was no more.  That edict seems to have come down from Fox.
Taking all of that into account this is the sequence of events:

• March 2011 - Lea, Chris, and Cory were approached about the plans for a spin-off but were asked to keep their mouths shut about it. No word about Naya but it seems at some point she was approached as well.  
• July 13, 2011- RM opened his big mouth to "The Hollywood Reporter" and said those Lea, Chris, and Cory would be off the show, which, most people understandably took to mean they would be gone completely since there was no mention of a spin-off.  In that same interview he flat out said he had talked to Lea & Chris and but not Cory but he was sure Cory knew Finn was graduating (my guess is Brad or Ian had talked to Cory)
• Next day - Chris was asked about "being off the show" he continued to be a good company man and not spill the beans about the spin-off so it made it seem that, not only did RM not talk to Cory, but he was lying about talking to Chris
• Mid-July, Comicon - Brad Falchuk said "Just because they're graduating doesn't mean they're leaving the show" and then tried to blame THR reporter for the media storm caused by RM's comments by saying the reporter misunderstood what RM said.
• July 28, 2011 - "The Daily Beast" had some quotes from Dana Walden from Fox where she said no one was being fired.   She also made it clear that there had been talk of a spin-off but that was dead in the water due to the controversy RM created.
• July 28, 2011  - RM did an interview with "Deadline" blaming the backlash on the cast (read Chris) when really it was his own stupid interview that set the whole mess in motion.  In that first interview he either should have mentioned they were discussing a spin-off or, since Fox wanted to keep that under wraps, he should have simply said they were still figuring season 3 and beyond out.  Instead he tried to stir up some buzz about the future of the show and backfired on him. Since there were fairly well sourced rumors that RM tried to kill "The Daily Beast" interview it seems this was him getting his version out there.
• During season 3 - RM and Fox became so gun shy about saying anybody was leaving it was declared everybody would stay

 

As for why Fox nixed the spin-off i think it was two-fold

• First and foremost, someone at Fox realized the Glee brand couldn't sustain two shows.  It was already starting to reach over-saturation (as proved by the anemic Glee movie box office a few weeks later) and having two shows would have just meant anemic to unacceptable ratings for both, especially with the three leads - Lea, Chris, and Cory on the new show.  As much as I would have wanted to see that spin-off I actually agree that both the shows would have done poorly which is why they simply should have jettisoned the choir room and followed a few of the graduates to NYC (my picks: Finn, Rachel, Kurt, Santana, Artie, Mercedes, and Blaine if we must)
• Secondarily Fox was ticked at the controversy RM created and said enough is enough. 

 

That whole mess also lays bare another lie of RM's - that he always planned to end the show on Rachel coming back to Finn/Lima and saying "I'm Home."  If the spin-off had gone forward then Cory/Finn would have been on that show.  Not riding the white board at McKinley.    

Edited July 3, 2014 by camussie

[Cranberry]

Hey guys -- I've noticed that discussion in this thread has been veering away from the topic of spoilers! Let's try to keep this to spoiler discussion and move the behind-the-scenes and media-related talk that doesn't mention spoilers to the "people in charge" thread, the media thread, or the threads for each specific actor so that even the spoilerphobes can see!

 

I just moved all of the Chris Colfer Twitter hacking stuff to his thread.

 

(Behind-the-scenes speculation that references spoilers like the rumored "three show choir" plan for next season is fine here, of course!)

[tom87]

That whole mess also lays bare another lie of RM's - that he always planned to end the show on Rachel coming back to Finn/Lima and saying "I'm Home."  If the spin-off had gone forward then Cory/Finn would have been on that show.  Not riding the white board at McKinley.

 

 

Exactly also Ryan never once had said it would end with  Finn and Rachel always said Rachel .   So convenient.

[camussie]

Here is what a gossip blog that generally has sources said about season 6

• Naya, Amber, and Jenna are each back for 3-4 episode guest shots
• Alex  (unique) is not coming back after all
• The kid regulars are Lea, Kevin, Chris, Darren, Chord
• Episode order is 14

 

Source 

 

My thoughts

• I am surprised Naya is back at all given that whatever happened was dramatic enough that they wrote her out of the last episode on the fly.  There must have been a lot of pride swallowed on both sides to agree to any sort of return
• Alex not coming back after all is no surprise.  I suspect Unique was going to be Will's assistant at Vocal Adrenaline (if that is where he is) and when costs had to be cut she was deemed unnecessary
• There needs to be at least one other female regular singer.  I think they will try to get away with it by rotating the Naya, amber, and Jenna in and out.
• I am skeptical of 14 episodes.  I still bet it will be 13 at the most.  

Edited July 8, 2014 by camussie

[caracas1914]

That source says filming now starts in September.

If this spoiler is true that Glee "delays" production until September 3, I call bullshit on the writers needing "more time " to write their episodes. I suspect that FOX is making them wait until Chris is nearly finished up filming his Noel movie to minimize his absence.

[camussie]

I don't think the delay is solely because of Chris.  That may be one factor but I would also bet there is some budgeting issues to be worked out as well.  

[Pink ranger]

Kevin was also cast in a movie with an August shooting at the end on May. It was acutually getting suspitious when so many cast members booked mid summer jobs. I think that this delay was discussed BTS for some time now. 

Edited July 8, 2014 by Pink ranger

[bravelittletoaster]

Lea and all the male characters. Lol, sounds awesome. If you're Ryan Murphy or a 13 year old girl. I am looking forward to the ratings though.

[tom87]

Updated : Jenna is scheduled for 3/4 epsidoe too.

 

So every week one  girl will guest star to have another female voice.

 

 

Maybe each one will have a mini 2/3 episode arc in Lima and the last episode will be the grating Klaine wedding.

[caracas1914]

In his Sirius interview with Larry Flicker Chris colfer when questioned over Glee starting again:

"I think September sometime."

[Sara2009]

Does he mean that's when they start filming, or is he confused and thinking that 's when it'll start airing?

[Glorfindel]

Does he mean that's when they start filming, or is he confused and thinking that 's when it'll start airing?

Not sure yet.

The lady asked him about the filming in the video, but he was signing autographs and taking pics with fans at the same time, with people yelling at him, so maybe he misheard or misinterpreted her question.

 

Hopefully it will be cleared up soon.

[camussie]

I would assume it is filming as by this point I bet he knows Glee is a mid season replacement.  

[indeed]

That Larry guy during a radio interview asked CC about Glee filming: September sometime.

A woman on the street (captured on video) asked CC about when Noel started filming: next year (after he had to correct her for mispronouncing Noel, so they were definitely talking about the film). He also confirmed early next year filming for Noel in the Marvel podcast.

Edited July 8, 2014 by indeed

[caracas1914]

Well I think it's obvious they were planning to film earlier then September, Lea even mentioned filming in July. 

 

That associate editor who tried to backtrack his twitter remarks, to me it was clear that the show was in a delay mode to the point that some of the crew was caught unexpected.

 

So the fact that the writers said they needed "more time" leads me to believe that FOX nixed some of RIB's plans for the season and they have to revamp, retool.  Not just because of the shortened episode order but because some of their SL sales pitch that got Reily's OK didn't make it  though the second go around. If they went as far as doing chemistry test for a love interest for Unique, (which meant they had a tacit approval)  I can certainly see a new Management team at FOX saying "FUCK NO, we didn't get rid of the Noobs just for you to highlight one of them in your SL's for the coming season."

 

The spoilers about 3 choir teams, the pumping up of "Daleastreet",  etc, I would say it's all up in the air how that is going to work out by the time the scripts are written. 

 

Taking more speculation to People in Charge thread.

Edited July 8, 2014 by caracas1914

[jaytee1812]

Here is what a gossip blog that generally has sources said about season 6

• Naya and Amber are each back for 3-4 episode guest shot
• The kid regulars are Lea, Kevin, Chris, Darren, Chord

 

 

Nice to see Glee is even pretending to care about diversity these days with its regulars. When I say nice I mean dreadful. Although we are getting women of colour in guest slots. I'm sure that'll be to remind each of them once again they're as talented or hard working as Rachel. Ugh. 

[bravelittletoaster]

Let alone Chord. Ha.

[Advance35]

Maybe that'll be a good thing and this show can go out with the dignity it's been lacking since Season 1.   When it all began and during the one good season Glee had, the headliners were Schue, Finn and Rachel.   Everyone else went through a revolving door of focus and than being shuffled back stage.  Maybe that's what's needed again in order to tell a constructed and final story.   Spreading the wealth (story wise)  killed this show and maybe RIB finally realize that.

[caracas1914]

Well the show had far fewer characters and SL's  in the back seven  of this last  season  in NY.  Some thought, (myself included) that a narrower focus would bring a change.  Nope, the result  indicated that the bigger problem is still inconsistent and shitty writing, period.  Rachel's rushed BW story, the interminable Samcedes quasi relationship, the WTF Blaine/June mentor SL; , even with just a few characters and SL's Glee has lost it.

Edited July 9, 2014 by caracas1914

[tom87]

Not sure how much thought the back 7 of NY got really.  Seems to me in part it was a rush to set up season 6.  

 

Now to me the problem is not a focus on a smaller group but  why  Blaine and Sam instead of Kurt and Santana or Mercedes or even Artie.

[camussie]

I don't buy that.  Rachel rightfully got focus but her story was probably the hottest mess of them all.  The writing for Glee is just bad.  No matter who gets the focus.

[truthaboutluv]

The writing for Glee is just bad. No matter who gets the focus.

THIS...THIS SO MUCH!!! I feel like I've been screaming that since S4. I know people clearly have their favorites but I'm sorry, in my opinion, trying to point at and lay blame on this show's failure at any one actor/character or even group of actors/characters is a cop-out.

In my humble and sincere opinion, there is only one place to lay blame for the embarrassing shit-fest this show became and that's the writers, particularly RIB.

Edited July 9, 2014 by truthaboutluv

[tom87]

I don't buy that.  Rachel rightfully got focus but her story was probably the hottest mess of them all.  The writing for Glee is just bad.  No matter who gets the focus.

I was talking in relation to the last part in NY.    Many people wanted more NY casue of Rachel, Kurt and Santana to see thier stories.  

 

The writing has always been the/a problem that goes without saying.  I do think the shift in focus did not help matters.

Edited July 9, 2014 by tom87

[caracas1914]

Yup, as crappy as the writing is, you give Rachel a SL versus Marley and there is a wide chasm, it's still bad but there are degrees of bad, let's get serious.

The funny thing is that I do think the Noobs are very talented. Just not ready for their close up. It's like the now defunct spoiler about a Unique Love interest SL, I cringe on Alex trying to attempt with his acting such a delicate tight rope in portraying that "topical " PSA plot.

I'm hoping with the delay in production they rethink the way too early spoiler hints of that "Daleastreet" focus teased before the friggin Upfronts in May. Glee is bad enough without zeroing in on some of the weaker actors (Chord and Darren) as linchpins/anchors of the show.

Santana get her on early and (if everyone gets along on set) zoom focus on that character ASAP.

[camussie]

I am serious when I say I thought New York was just as bad as Lima especially in season 5.  I thought focusing on more charismatic characters would make the show better but It got to the point where the only interesting character to me was Artie. 

 

In that same vein I don't think zooming focus on Santana will solve anything if they go with the same repetitive "she is the bitchy truthteller so even when she is being horrible it is okay" crap.  Not that I find Blaine or Sam or Rachel compelling either but that is my point.  I don't think the writers have it in them to do anything interesting anymore. 

[truthaboutluv]

Yup, as crappy as the writing is, you give Rachel a SL versus Marley and there is a wide chasm,

 

 

Moved to more appropriate General Discussion thread...

Edited July 10, 2014 by truthaboutluv

[caracas1914]

On the View today, Jane mentioned 12 episodes for the last season.

[camussie]

That sounds more likely to me than 14.  Perhaps 10 and then a 2 hour series finale.

[Sara2009]

Jane also said they should focus on Chris/Kurt.

[tom87]

So far Jane has said 12, Matt 13 and that blog 14.

 

Could be any of them.  

[caracas1914]

Jane also said they should focus on Chris/Kurt.

 

Yup, I got that from her comments on the View too.

 

"I would love all 12 episodes that we do—I would love for them all to just be amazing and to wrap up the stories, focus on all the characters who we’ve grown to love and keep that focus. I think of Chris Colfer—who I know was just on the show—he was a baby when we started that show."

Edited July 10, 2014 by caracas1914

[jaytee1812]

It's officially 13 

 

http://tvline.com/2014/07/10/glee-season-6-episodes-13/

[Sara2009]

If true, I find it sort of amusing that Matt was the one with the correct number.

[truthaboutluv]

Not that much of a stretch - television show seasons are typically either the 22-25 or 13. I believe most cable shows have 13 episode seasons because cable doesn't do repeats like the networks or have to worry about sweeps, etc. Shameless for example has always only had 13-episode seasons and it's not from lack of ratings/interest as it's the highest or second highest show on Showtime.

[caracas1914]

With Jane saying in that Toronto TV  interview  that for  Glee, that they are all returning to McKinley with rivalries with the other schools in town.    I think that Ryan Murphy is ending up with what he wanted all along, a TV show centered around McKinley High with the choir room as the showcase.

 

So he's going to drag all the graduates back to Lima to  all become Will 2.0's helping young kids to choir competition glory.

[indeed]

Because that's worked out so well so far. *yawn* So much for Baine's engagement idea bringing them all together...

[Sara2009]

With Jane saying in that Toronto TV interview that for Glee, that they are all returning to McKinley with rivalries with the other schools in town. I think that Ryan Murphy is ending up

with what he wanted all along, a TV show

centered around McKinley High with the choir

room as the showcase.

So he's going to drag all the graduates back to Lima to all become Will 2.0's helping young kids to choir competition glory.

Blaine and Will won't be at McKinley. It looks like they'll be at Dalton and Carmel respectively.

[caracas1914]

Same thing, no? Helping Vocal Adrenaline and Warblers achieve their dreams.

[tom87]

And McKinley will still be the center of the show.

 

It does not interest me at all.  The club/competition thing was played out long ago

[Camera One]

At this point, they might as well go all out and say every original character from Season 1 became a teacher and are working at McKinley, Dalton or Carmel.

[camussie]

I suspect it will be like this

• Sam/Rachel at McKinley - either she is actually filming her show there or more likely it is a few years after her wildly successful show and she is back in Lima taking a sabbatical (best scenario) or giving it all up completely (worst scenario). Anyway however she gets to Lima, Sam asks her to help him get ND off the ground probably because of her star power
• Blaine with a side of Kurt at Dalton - I still think they some how get tangled back up with Dalton when they are back in town planning their wedding
• Will - has been at Carmel/VA a while.  I suspect Unique was going to be his sidekick, at first, but due to budget constraints that was nixed
• Artie - will be Switzerland and some how be catching all of this on film to showcase how important arts is to this area of Ohio
• Rest of the graduates (mainly Mercedes/Tina/Santana so it isn't just Rachel and the boys) - will come and go 

 

As far as all of this it just underscores that RM's obsession with the choir room is what was driving stories in season 4 and 5 and now 6.  Seems like he only gave up Lima grudgingly when Fox said no more and now that they don't seem to care, beyond budget, he is hightailing it back there.  Still I bet he some how continues to scapegoat Cory's passing for every single one of his piss poor decisions since the end of season 3.  

Edited August 1, 2014 by camussie

[caracas1914]

Seems like he only gave up Lima grudgingly when Fox said no more

 

I think FOX was not willing to spend another second of screen time on the Noobs.  Since they couldn't very well shift focus to McKinley with everyone in New York after "100" the show runners were forced there until the end of the season. To add insult to injury, now  they are shifting the narrative back to McKinley and yet the Noobs will be MIA.

 

As long as the focus is on the original characters I don't think FOX gives a rat's ass where the narrative is set.  They want the show to end it's days with  the characters that took them to the dance and not waste screen time  on Marley, etc.

Edited August 1, 2014 by caracas1914

[tom87]

The one thing I care less about then them returning to Lima is the Klaine wedding.  It better not get more focus than Wemma wedding or Rachel's  bway debut which let was rushed and squeezed into the back 7 instead of at least the season finale for some unknown reason.

Edited August 1, 2014 by tom87

[whack-a-mole]

This could not sound less interesting if they tried. What are the chances this suckfest of random kids nobody ever saw before being mentored by characters we spent YEARS hoping would escape this exact fate doing the beyond played out competition thing again goes straight to dvd and we can pretend none of it ever happened?

[jaytee1812]

This could not sound less interesting if they tried. What are the chances this suckfest of random kids nobody ever saw before being mentored by characters we spent YEARS hoping would escape this exact fate doing the beyond played out competition thing again goes straight to dvd and we can pretend none of it ever happened?

 

I could see Fox putting this straight to on demand/iTunes/Amazon etc. 

 

The thing that makes me laugh about the spoilers, and just going by the actors who've been announced. The characters who have ended up back in Lima (Rachel, Kurt, Blaine) are the ones as an audience we've been told will make it out of Lima, they were never going to be happy there. Yet the ones who have made it out (Puck, Quinn, Tina, the newbies, even Mike) are the ones who were never getting out, and were never going to be the success the others were. 

[camussie]

I really don't think Blaine and Kurt are going to be in Lima permanently.  I think they will some how set the narrative up that they are there for just a few months.  Artie as well.  Rachel maybe as well or it could be she plans to be there permanently but helping out ND has helped her refocus on her dreams of sharing her talent on the stage rather than just being a celebrity.  That would set up her leaving Lima again.  Sam will be there since he is the new Finn and Finn was also slated to never leave the Lima dome.  

Edited August 1, 2014 by camussie