Spoilers & Speculation: Running Hot & Cold

[DearEvette]

4 hours ago, KirkB said:

Personality wise I think Wally would fit in well on Legends. And away from Barry, he might actually be allowed to do more than run into a room and immediately be knocked unconscious. But as has been mentioned by others, a speedster is potentially TOO powerful and could make the rest of the team redundant, unless they nerf his powers and find ways to negate the point of having a speedster in the first place.

Well, if they are anything like The Flash writers, they'll manage ways to make his speediness not so speedy.  The show fudges on the whole "fastest man alive" thing when the plot miraculously needs him to not to be.  I think it would be analogous to how when  someone without Sarah's specialized martial training manages to either stick with her in fights or even sometimes best her.  I mean, c'mon, no way would Ava been able to beat Sara in a fight, unless plot called for it.

I am glad if it is Wally, I like the actor and the character and let's face it, as another speedster on The Flash he is pretty redundant.  I mean, he is canon in the comics but for the show I feel the writers wrote themselves into a box with him.

[tarotx]

http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/12/08/legends-of-tomorrow-firestorm-replacement-character/

Taken from the Mind your surroundings thread by Velocity23 in the Arrow board.

Quote

According to executive producer Marc Guggenheim, "a previously established character from the Arrowverse" will be stepping in to replace Firestorm on Legends.

The conversation came about when we asked the producer about Ray's introduction, and whether or not he could come onto the show full-time. Unfortunately, actor Russell Tovey is still tied up on ABC's Quantico, so he's not available in the near future. However, Guggenheim said that there was a plan in place.

"We do have a plan for how to replace Firestorm on the bridge, and it's a really cool one. It's one we're really excited about." Guggenheim continued, "There's really like two empty chairs on the Waverider. So we do have a game plan. We've always had a game plan. I just can't talk about the game plan. The CW publicity will determine when we get to unleash that bit of news."

Since he couldn't reveal exactly who was coming to Legends, we asked if Guggenheim could at least tell us if the character was already in the Arrowverse or if they would be new to the party.

"It's a returning," Guggenheim hesitated. "It's a previously established character from the Arrowverse."

[johntfs]

2 hours ago, DearEvette said:

I mean, c'mon, no way would Ava been able to beat Sara in a fight, unless plot called for it.

To be fair, we really don't know what Ava's background is.  Plus, she's a Time Bureau agent and apparently Rip's protege.  She might have learned kenjutsu from Miyamoto Musashi, war tactics from Sun Tzu and general martial arts from Batman.

[Miss Dee]

Hmm...changing his word choice from "returning" to "previously established"....

That tells me we've *heard* about this character, but we have never *seen* them. That could be referring to Legends only, or to the Arrowverse as a whole.

Okay, brainstorming time! Who has been mentioned as part of the Arrowverse, but never seen?

Edited December 8, 2017 by Miss Dee

[Lugal]

What's Megalyn Echikunwoke been up to lately?  Although I doubt they'd bring her on unless Maisie leaves.

[Maelstrom]

10 hours ago, KirkB said:

But as has been mentioned by others, a speedster is potentially TOO powerful and could make the rest of the team redundant, unless they nerf his powers and find ways to negate the point of having a speedster in the first place.

Firestorm, J'onn Jones and Kara are all too powerful plot wise as well, and for the latter two Supergirl continually finds ways to not utilize their full powers so as not to solve the ep in two minutes. And if it's between nerfing or dropping the characters* then I'm all for nerfing. I need my David Harewood fix, and since Selfie got cancelled** then Supergirl better keep him around. So I say why couldn't the same go for a speedster?

So all that to say, that I agree a speedster should be too powerful if used properly, but as long as LoT keeps bringing the fun I don't really care how they get around it. Someone a while back mentioned that Wally could zip in, knock out the bad guys and fix the anachronism within the first few minutes of the show, leaving the Legends free to go about their day (Sara would probably spar, maybe with Amaya; Mick would go back to drinking until Ray would force him watch a musical, and Nate would join in with popcorn; Zari would play video games). Actually, the Legends' Day Off would be a pretty fun episode.

 

* I realize Supergirl will never drop their title character, but bear with me for argument's sake.

** Yes, I'm still bitter about Selfie's cancellation three years later.

[KirkB]

J'onn is probably the only person in the Arrowverse who generally gets it worse than Wally. On the Flash, at least some of the time, Wally would get to knock out one or two guys before being knocked out himself. J'onn is always the first to go down immediately whenever the villain could plausibly be stopped simply by 'scan his mind and find out needed information' and otherwise inexplicably stands around while, say, a Kryptonian super monster is beating the hell out of Kara.

I actually kind of like the idea of Wally on LoT. He's wasted on the Flash since it's Barry's show so HE needs to the THE hero and it doesn't make sense to have two speedsters on the team anyway.

On the other hand, if they try to shuffle Ralph Dibny onto the Waverider the show and I are going to have words. And most of them are not suitable for polite company.

Edited December 9, 2017 by KirkB

[Maelstrom]

Can anyone give me the Cliff Notes rundown of who the heck Ralph is? I only watch LoT and Supergirl, so I'm not familiar with whoever Ralph Dibny is (and from the way everyone's talking about him, that sounds like a good thing).

[Sakura12]

Ralph is one of the main reasons I gave up on the Flash. Having a white dude bro character that identifies women by their measurements is a big nope for me. I don't care to see his heroes journey or any screentime wasted on him. 

I'm okay with Wally joining, as other said Supergirl and Martian Manhunter are the most powerful beings on any Earth and they never solve all their problems in a few seconds when they should be able too. So I expect the same treatment with Wally. Yes he can be the best but he never will be because that's boring. Wally has a lot to learn and I think he can learn more under actual leadership with Sara and an actual team with the Legends then he can with Barry. 

Also the fuck is Quentin talking about when he told Oliver he had no one to give his grandfather's watch too. I know we joke about Arrow forgetting about Sara, but did they legit forget Sara exists? Did Barry erase her from Arrow's time too? 

Edited December 9, 2017 by Sakura12

[legaleagle53]

3 hours ago, Maelstrom said:

Can anyone give me the Cliff Notes rundown of who the heck Ralph is? I only watch LoT and Supergirl, so I'm not familiar with whoever Ralph Dibny is (and from the way everyone's talking about him, that sounds like a good thing).

Ralph Dibney (aka the Elongated Man) is a new recurring character on The Flash this season.  He was just introduced a few weeks ago as an ex-cop-turned-private-detective with a somewhat shady past who acquired the power of super-elasticity (think Reed Richards of the Fantastic Four) after being exposed to dark matter.  Right now, he's trying to find his footing as a super-hero, but he's somewhat polarizing among the viewership:  most of the viewers like Hartley Sawyer, the actor who plays him (he's been compared to a young Jim Carrey, if that tells you anything), but many of those same viewers hate Ralph because they feel that he comes across as a sexist, tone-deaf, immature douche (and a few people resent him because they think that Wally was sidelined as a character in order to make room for him).

I personally like Ralph because I think he fits in very nicely with the lighter comedic tone that The Flash has adopted this season.  And Sara, Amaya, and Zari would very quickly break him of his fratboy habits as far as the way he treats women would be concerned if he became one of the Legends.

Edited December 9, 2017 by legaleagle53

[Primal Slayer]

4 hours ago, Lugal said:

What's Megalyn Echikunwoke been up to lately?  Although I doubt they'd bring her on unless Maisie leaves.

She's not interested in doing the Arrowverse full time, they cant even get her for an episode.

I hope that the rumors of it being Wally are true since I think he would be put to goo use here.

Of course I would LOVE if they put Black Siren on the show but I know that aint gonna be happening. That 2nd slot will probably go to another newbie.

[Maelstrom]

Thanks everyone for filling me in on Ralph. He definitely doesn’t sound like someone I want to watch on Legends. Nate is enough of a dude bro for me (though they have noticeably toned that down in the past few eps, and I’m very grateful for it).

[johntfs]

3 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

Of course I would LOVE if they put Black Siren on the show but I know that aint gonna be happening. That 2nd slot will probably go to another newbie.

I can't see Black Siren fitting in with the Waverider crew very well.  Mick works as well as he does because he views the crews as his gang with Sara as the boss of the gang.  Figure once Black Siren started trying her "sister" mind games to manipulate Sara, Mick would Bar-B-Q her.

As for the "second slot," why does it have to go to anyone?  Once Miller leaves and assuming Wally joins, that's Sara, Amaya, Zari, Wally, Nate, Ray and Mick.  Seven characters.  Eight, counting Gideon, and you really should count Gideon. 

[darkestboy]

I've heard a rumour on Twitter it could be Rory/Ragman. Not sure how true that is though.

[Miss Dee]

I liked Rory, although to this day I have no clue what the fuck those rags actually do. And he adds diversity in being gay and Jewish.

[Proteus]

3 hours ago, darkestboy said:

I've heard a rumour on Twitter it could be Rory/Ragman. Not sure how true that is though.

I think we already have it confirmed that it's Wally West.

[tarotx]

Ragman was a nice character and I would have loved to keep him over either Curtis or Wild Dog. But I highly doubt Legends new character will be him. He Lost his power (at least for a little while) and is too quiet and introspective for Legends. Plus his name is Rory. While Mick Rory is Mick it's still weird. Imo.

 

Ever since AK mentioned Wally as still a part of the Arrowverse I figured he would make his way to legends. I didn't think we would lose Jax though. 

[legaleagle53]

3 hours ago, Miss Dee said:

I liked Rory, although to this day I have no clue what the fuck those rags actually do. And he adds diversity in being gay and Jewish.

The rags basically had the power to absorb any kind of physical force used against Rory by transferring its effects to the spirits of his ancestors, from whom he inherited the rags. It's how he was able to survive and contain a thermonuclear explosion when he used the rags and his body to cover a nuclear bomb just before it detonated.

[Miss Dee]

Thanks @legaleagle53. I didn't watch Arrow S4 (I started watching in S5 because I knew the big crossover was coming), so I missed the "absorb a nuclear explosion" stunt. To me, all it looked like was him standing there and acting all menacing.

[Starfish35]

9 hours ago, Miss Dee said:

I liked Rory, although to this day I have no clue what the fuck those rags actually do. And he adds diversity in being gay and Jewish.

I didn't realize Rory was gay.  Although I missed a lot of season 5 of Arrow.

22 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

She's not interested in doing the Arrowverse full time, they cant even get her for an episode.

Yeah, it seems like there was something in one of TVLine's spoiler columns recently asking if Mari was going to appear this season, and they had a quote from MG saying they'd been trying to get her but so far it hadn't worked out.

ETA:  Maybe it was another site, not TVLine.  I've been digging and I can't find it on there. :(

Edited December 10, 2017 by Starfish35

[Starfish35]

Honestly, I think my main concern about Wally on Legends is that, at least to this point, I haven't been overly impressed with Keiynan Lonsdale as an actor.  But in fairness I haven't had a lot of opportunities to see him, since I quit watching The Flash after season two, except for crossovers. 

[Sakura12]

I don't like how he got his powers, but I feel bad that Wally never gets to do anything on the Flash. If he joins the Legends he'll probably get to grow as a character. 

This is from the Mind Your Surrounding thread. 

Marc Guggenheim participated in two panels at ACE Comic Con in Long Island today...

Tune In: DCTV Panel | 2018 ACE Comic Con Long Island
December 9, 2017, by ACE Universe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxQkulXPg_o

- LoT: MG mentioned John Constantine's "surprise appearance" in the just-aired mid-season finale and said that he will be back for the mid-season premiere (310). MG: "I would watch the Sara Lance-John Constantine show, like, any day of the week. Those two guys are so great together. Um, and that's a real joy." MG also mentioned LoT's move to Supergirl's time slot on Mondays. When fan asked about the rules of time travel on LoT and if there's a logic behind it, MG joked: "Clearly not."

-- When fan asked if Katana (who debuted on Arrow) could appear on LoT, MG said that they "talk about that all the time, actually." He also said that Keto Shimizu, who wrote a lot of the Katana episodes of S3 of Arrow, is now a Co-EP on LoT and loves the Katana character. MG said that it always depends on two things: if there's the right story and if the actor is available, because they try to avoid re-casting.

Edited December 10, 2017 by Sakura12

[Primal Slayer]

19 hours ago, johntfs said:

*//*+I can't see Black Siren fitting in with the Waverider crew very well.  Mick works as well as he does because he views the crews as his gang with Sara as the boss of the gang.  Figure once Black Siren started trying her "sister" mind games to manipulate Sara, Mick would Bar-B-Q her.

As for the "second slot," why does it have to go to anyone?  Once Miller leaves and assuming Wally joins, that's Sara, Amaya, Zari, Wally, Nate, Ray and Mick.  Seven characters.  Eight, counting Gideon, and you really should count Gideon. 

I think having Siren around would probably cause Mick to possibly start sliding down the darker side of things again and throw some chaos into the team for a little bit which could be fun to see if done correctly. But either way I just need Siren/Sara to have a good arc together. 

[Sakura12]

Sara seems to have ceased to exist on Arrow so I don't see the writers caring to write anything with Sara and Siren. 

[Proteus]

1 hour ago, Starfish35 said:

I didn't realize Rory was gay.  Although I missed a lot of season 5 of Arrow.

Yeah, it seems like there was something in one of TVLine's spoiler columns recently asking if Mari was going to appear this season, and they had a quote from MG saying they'd been trying to get her but so far it hadn't worked out.

ETA:  Maybe it was another site, not TVLine.  I've been digging and I can't find it on there. :(

Arrow never specified Arrows Rory's sexuality.

[Starfish35]

2 hours ago, Starfish35 said:

Yeah, it seems like there was something in one of TVLine's spoiler columns recently asking if Mari was going to appear this season, and they had a quote from MG saying they'd been trying to get her but so far it hadn't worked out.

ETA:  Maybe it was another site, not TVLine.  I've been digging and I can't find it on there. :(

@apinknightmare was kind enough to find this for me over in the Mind Your Surroundings thread.  It wasn't TVLine; it was EW's Spoiler Room column.  From November 16:

Quote

Will Mari appear on Legends of Tomorrow this season? — Kellee
“Unfortunately, no movement at the moment, but we remain hopeful,” executive producer Marc Guggenheim says of the Arrowverse’s original Vixen, a.k.a. Amaya’s other granddaughter Mari McCabe (Megalyn E.K.). EP Phil Klemmer adds: “But you might meet her boyfriend.” (FYI: That’s just a possibility at the moment, as the Legends bosses are still breaking that episode.)

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

When fan asked if Katana (who debuted on Arrow) could appear on LoT, MG said that they "talk about that all the time, actually." He also said that Keto Shimizu, who wrote a lot of the Katana episodes of S3 of Arrow, is now a Co-EP on LoT and loves the Katana character. MG said that it always depends on two things: if there's the right story and if the actor is available, because they try to avoid re-casting.

I loved Katana, and was disappointed that Arrow didn't do more with her.  I would love to see her again on Legends.

35 minutes ago, Proteus said:

Arrow never specified Arrows Rory's sexuality.

Thanks - I figured I missed something.

[Miss Dee]

Jeez, I could have sworn they did. I'm not a comics fan and I wouldn't have concluded that out of nowhere.

[Starfish35]

On 12/8/2017 at 8:48 PM, Primal Slayer said:

Of course I would LOVE if they put Black Siren on the show but I know that aint gonna be happening. That 2nd slot will probably go to another newbie.

I think it will go to Ava.  I'd love to see Arthur Darvill come back full time, but... I'm guessing that's not happening.  

As for BS, I'm not sure I could keep watching if any Katie Cassidy character ever joined the show.  The Legends writers may have fantastic character rehabilitation powers, but I don't think they extend that far. :(  But as you say, it's unlikely to happen.

[Primal Slayer]

I think Ava would be a little to much like Sara and they seem to try to make sure Sara is the only regular person on the team (Mick is normal but he has his heat gun) so I would be surprised to see her join full time. 

LoT writers definitely put more care into their characters so if I had any hopes anyone could do KC wonders, I would say they could. 

[cambridgeguy]

Quote

I think Ava would be a little to much like Sara and they seem to try to make sure Sara is the only regular person on the team (Mick is normal but he has his heat gun) so I would be surprised to see her join full time. 

Ava would pretty much be season 1 Rip if she joined up and being the wet blanket who is constantly calling out the team for their undisciplined and sloppy actions is not a good role to have on this show. 

[legaleagle53]

1 hour ago, cambridgeguy said:

Ava would pretty much be season 1 Rip if she joined up and being the wet blanket who is constantly calling out the team for their undisciplined and sloppy actions is not a good role to have on this show. 

I don't know. She seems to have come to an understanding regarding the Legends' "undisciplined and sloppy" ways, especially since her by-the-book Time Bureau has pretty much imploded following Rip's incarceration.  There's no telling what repercussions she herself faced after deliberately disobeying a direct order not to help the Legends defeat Dahrk and Nora, and I definitely think she's begun to re-think and re-assess a lot of things regarding her job and the Legends as a result of getting to know them and their ways a little better, especially if she ended up being disciplined by the Time Bureau in some way for helping them.

[Miss Dee]

I could see Ava joining until Mallus is defeated (assuming he's defeated - you never really know with Legends, they could pull a Person of Interest Season 3 on us), but I can't see her staying after that for the same reasons @Primal Slayer and @cambridgeguy outlined: she'd be too much of a retread between Sara and Rip.

[johntfs]

16 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

I think having Siren around would probably cause Mick to possibly start sliding down the darker side of things again and throw some chaos into the team for a little bit which could be fun to see if done correctly. But either way I just need Siren/Sara to have a good arc together. 

I don't see Black Siren bringing much to the team that the team doesn't already have.  Mick is a criminal, but he's a team player criminal.  I doubt she'd be able to push him too far and if she tried, "FWOOOOSH!"  I also don't see Sara and Black Siren having any kind of arc.  Quentin has the arc he does because he conflates her with his Laurel.  Quentin is basically a regular persion who doesn't get all this interdimensional wierdness.  Sara eats that shit for breakfast with waffles and eggs.  She'd have no problem dealing with the idea that Black Siren is a stranger and an enemy who merely shares her sister's face.

Edited December 10, 2017 by johntfs

[Primal Slayer]

I don't know, I think Sara probably harbers some guilt that she can't just go back and save Laurel and if Siren is given any kind of redemption I could see Sara trying to help her become a better person since she's been there. 

[Proteus]

I don't think Ava will join the team but I also think she is a long term character. Ava can pop in on the Waverider whenever she wants since she's a Time Bureau agent so she doesn't need to join the team to always be around.

[johntfs]

I read somewhere that Constantine would be flirting with Cold.  I think the internet might get broken if that happens.

[Miss Dee]

Saw that in an interview. Purcell assures us Mick's reaction is worth watching.

[darkestboy]

There was an Arrow episode where Rory said he wasn't gay to Curtis back in the fifth season.

Wally would work better as a member of the team than Ava, who I think they'll keep recurring for now.

[Lady Calypso]

Man, I would have loved if Rory had been the one to join the team here. Not only was he shafted on Arrow, despite him being the fan favourite out of the newbies, but imagine the hilarity when someone on the team would call for Rory, and both him and Mick would try to answer. 

We do have a lot of similar sounding R names in the Arrowverse, though. (Mick) Rory, who is sometimes just called Rory, then there's Ray, then The Ray, then Roy, and then Rory. Also, I guess Rip KIND OF fits in with the pattern, though not quite. Also, Ra's, depending on how you say his damn name as every single character seemed to say it differently. 

However, Wally, I guess, isn't the worst previously established character to join Legends. I've grown to like Wally, even after disliking him most of last season, and I've grown to adore Keiynan Lonsdale. Plus, him and Jax at least have similar backgrounds in engineering so Wally replacing Jax works because he can be the one to fix the ship when it needs fixing. Plus, Legends has done a decent job in explaining when characters can't use full use of their abilities so I'm hoping they can explain why Wally can't just solve problems with his superspeed. Unlike on The Flash, when he kept getting knocked out because they realized they needed Barry to save the day. 

As for Ava, I definitely don't need her as a regular on the Waverider, but I also don't mind if she's a major recurring character, still working at the Time Bureau and only popping in when needed. I guess I wouldn't hate if her and Sara have a friends with benefits type situation; I think they're still heading the love interest route with those two. 

[tarotx]

Rip fits mostly because AD played a Rory on Doctor Who :p

[Sakura12]

We do have a lot of similar sounding R names in the Arrowverse, though. (Mick) Rory, who is sometimes just called Rory, then there's Ray, then The Ray, then Roy, and then Rory. Also, I guess Rip KIND OF fits in with the pattern, though not quite. Also, Ra's, depending on how you say his damn name as every single character seemed to say it differently.

I thought the same thing in Arrow Season 2  with S names when Island Oliver was surrounded by Slade, Shado and Sara. Lol. 

I think having The Ray who is also named Ray joining the team would be more confusing. Mick would have to be called Mick to stop the confusion if Ragman joined. 

[tennisgurl]

I miss Ragman, I would love if he showed up here. Of course the newbie that I liked the most was the one that was written out, and we get stuck with whiners incorporated. His powers are really interesting and he has a tragic backstory and a likable personality that isn't too much like anyone elses. Although, yeah they would have to just call Mick Rory Mick all the time to keep them straight. Of course, a lot of them do that anyway now, so it could still work. I think that during the Dominator cross over last year, someone even commented on the two Rory's and having to be specific about who they were talking about. 

Although, I would be alright with Wally joining as well. He has grown on me a lot and LoT has done wonders for plenty of characters, even ones like Wally that have more potential as characters than are really great in their own right. He was really held back on The Flash (already having plenty of speedsters) so I think he could find more of a niche here. He has a lot of power, but he is still young and kind of immature, so he could grow a lot, and it could deal with him not fixing everything. 

Edited December 13, 2017 by tennisgurl

[MarkHB]

On 12/11/2017 at 11:36 AM, Lady Calypso said:

Man, I would have loved if Rory had been the one to join the team here. Not only was he shafted on Arrow, despite him being the fan favourite out of the newbies, but imagine the hilarity when someone on the team would call for Rory, and both him and Mick would try to answer. 

Who's this other Rory?  (I don't watch Arrow.)

[Lady Calypso]

36 minutes ago, MarkHB said:

Who's this other Rory?  (I don't watch Arrow.)

Rory Regan, also known as Ragman. He basically was a really great new character because he didn't feel like a replacement to a previous (or even current) team member. He was quiet and reserved but with a dry yet witty sense of humour. His superpower was also somewhat fresh; he basically had magic rags that covered his body, which was the only bit of magic on Arrow I could stand. Basically, there was a lot of positive feedback with his character and Arrow chose to write him off by getting him to stop a bomb by himself with his rags, which destroyed his rags, and then he hasn't been heard from since. It really made zero sense to get rid of his character when his was the only new one that got any good feedback, and it makes no sense why they never tried to bring him back or mention him. 

Oh! Though I just discovered on his Wikipedia that his suit was featured on the Doomworld episode (one of the suits that Damien had on his trophy shelf). 

[Proteus]

Tala Ashe posted this spoilery picture. Amayas hair looks weird:

[Maelstrom]

I’m pretty sure Maisie had her hair chemically straightened for this season - it’s been super straight in most of the episodes, and when it’s been curly it has that fried/overstyled look to it that tells me they tried to recurl it (and that never looks the same as natural curls). I have curly hair myself so I tend to notice the little details like that.

On topic, I’m glad that they seem to be delving into the totem storyline in future eps. Is it February yet?

[Miss Dee]

Too lazy to get the URL, but according to Nick Zano's Twitter feed the 14th episode of Legends of Tomorrow is called,  "Amazing Grace."

[Sakura12]

That's a religious song and the pics show them at a church. It'll be interesting to see what that episode is about. 

[tennisgurl]

The gang accidentally screws up the reformation? 

[Miss Dee]

Beebo is back as a deity of choice, confirmed!