Untreatable: Unpopular Opinions

[Danny Franks]

On 2017-5-6 at 0:20 PM, starri said:

I hated Luka.  I don't know why but he always rubbed me the wrong way.

Luka bugged me, because he seemed like such a direct replacement for Doug in the 'handsome but morose, troubled heartthrob who will spend episodes moping in darkness, set to twinkling music' stakes. I can't even recall many Luka storylines that weren't about him projecting his manly pain and angst onto different people.

It was like they didn't even try. Just doubled down on the tragic backstory, and relied on Goran Visnjic to give the guy some actual personality. But they really lost me with him when they went ahead and made him and Carter both pine endlessly for a woman who (as Luka himself put it) wasn't anything special. Abby was so self-absorbed that I could never take any of that triangle of relationships seriously.

4 hours ago, starri said:

He was always a good guy though.  When he discovered that TV Guide only featured black actors on the cover during Black History Month, he refused to give them one unless they gave Eriq La Salle one as well.

The hell? They only feature black actors on the cover during Black History Month? I hope that's a practice they've discontinued now.

I always liked Clooney, but I rarely liked Doug. He, like Luka, spent too much time moping and feeling sorry for himself over one woman or another, or one professional fuck up or another. I only really liked him when he was hanging out with the other guys, be it Mark or (rarely) Carter, or (even more rarely) Benton.

[starri]

5 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

I always liked Clooney, but I rarely liked Doug. He, like Luka, spent too much time moping and feeling sorry for himself over one woman or another, or one professional fuck up or another. I only really liked him when he was hanging out with the other guys, be it Mark or (rarely) Carter, or (even more rarely) Benton.

I hated that Doug always tried to blame his problems on someone else.  When he finally went too far and got himself fired, he tried to blame it on Kerry and Anspaugh.  This after he'd already gotten caught breaking the rules and then Mark and Kerry decided to try and cover for him.  A lot of the stuff was done with good intentions, but at a certain point, a grownup would actually own his business.

[starri]

This is a statement from a man who has been an openly Bearded American for more than a decade, but I discovered I really liked Carter's S6 facial hair experiment.  Hated it back then, though.

[slf]

I get the appeal of Benton/Corday on paper but they just don't work for me. I get why Corday would be interested by not why she'd stick around, to be honest. I think La Salle's aversion to the relationship is bleeding through into his performance or something; Benton seems annoyed by Corday at best. They had a cute couple of scenes before they started dating when they went to a pub together and danced (Benton laughed and smiled!) but since then it's been once cringey interaction after another. I just caught the episode where Romano ended her fellowship and Benton just criticizes her attempts to find another surgeon in the hospital to sponsor her rather than looking at hospitals in other parts of the country. Way to support your girlfriend, dude.

[starri]

I think the worst moment was when Peter, knowing that Elizabeth spent all day being harassed by Romano, decided to go after the Trauma Surgery fellowship that she'd created.  Ostensibly so he could spend more time with Reese.

"I know you love your son, but don't use him as an excuse to screw me over."

[Sticker Shock]

I think I have the most unpopular opinion of them all: I didn't entirely hate Cleo.

MM had total anti-chemistry with ELS, she was thoroughly lifeless and robotic in scenes with him or even dealing with Peter indirectly, but when she was allowed to interact with others, with any substance, she was mostly fine.

[Granny58]

On 5/14/2017 at 3:25 AM, slf said:

I get the appeal of Benton/Corday on paper but they just don't work for me. I get why Corday would be interested by not why she'd stick around, to be honest. I think La Salle's aversion to the relationship is bleeding through into his performance or something; Benton seems annoyed by Corday at best. They had a cute couple of scenes before they started dating when they went to a pub together and danced (Benton laughed and smiled!) but since then it's been once cringey interaction after another. I just caught the episode where Romano ended her fellowship and Benton just criticizes her attempts to find another surgeon in the hospital to sponsor her rather than looking at hospitals in other parts of the country. Way to support your girlfriend, dude.

I always thought they had the chemistry together of 2 dead fish.  

[Granny58]

I think Doug was very nice to his pediatric patients (and so that was worthy) but he was a shitty boyfriend.  I don't get his appeal at all.  Plus, yeah, the head wobbling.  Annoying.  

[slasherboy]

I thought I was the only one irritated by that thing he did with his head.

[BooksRule]

I read somewhere (imbd.com?) that Clooney did the 'head down' thing because he would have his lines written where he could take a look at them if he got stuck, so that's why he was looking down a lot.

[starri]

8 hours ago, BooksRule said:

I read somewhere (imbd.com?) that Clooney did the 'head down' thing because he would have his lines written where he could take a look at them if he got stuck, so that's why he was looking down a lot.

I actually think you're right.  I forget that a lot of the jargon probably sounds like gobbledygook if you're not used to saying it.  The actors on House used to have someone feed them the more complicated terms, just because it hard to both memorize and pronounce correctly.

I don't think that's the only reason though, because I remember him doing it a lot in Batman & Robin as well, and that's got to be written at a third-grade level.

I mentioned this in the episode thread, but I hated Peter's "COME ON PEOPLE, LET'S MOVE!  LET'S MOVE, PEOPLE!" in every trauma.  It makes the show exciting, but he's a surgeon, not the captain of the SWAT team.  I actually appreciated that Elizabeth was a lot more sedate.  In fact, I think in her first episode, she suggests everyone pause to catch their breath, which is closer to what would actually happen if the trauma/code were to get that heated for some reason.

[RedbirdNelly]

7 hours ago, starri said:

 

I mentioned this in the episode thread, but I hated Peter's "COME ON PEOPLE, LET'S MOVE!  LET'S MOVE, PEOPLE!" in every trauma.  It makes the show exciting, but he's a surgeon, not the captain of the SWAT team.  I actually appreciated that Elizabeth was a lot more sedate.  In fact, I think in her first episode, she suggests everyone pause to catch their breath, which is closer to what would actually happen if the trauma/code were to get that heated for some reason.

what's funny is after reading your comment in the episode thread I saw the episode where Carter is doing a procedure on an 8 year old for the first time and Peter calmly talks him through what to do. Almost like he read your comment and wanted to show you he could do calm and sedate. ha.

[slasherboy]

21 hours ago, BooksRule said:

I read somewhere (imbd.com?) that Clooney did the 'head down' thing because he would have his lines written where he could take a look at them if he got stuck, so that's why he was looking down a lot.

I sure hope that's the story; otherwise, he looks like an afflicted doofus, and he certainly isn't that!

[desertflower]

I remember reading that when he did Three Kings the director called him out on the head wobbling and he stopped after that. 

[desertflower]

On 5/24/2017 at 3:01 AM, Sticker Shock said:

I think I have the most unpopular opinion of them all: I didn't entirely hate Cleo.

MM had total anti-chemistry with ELS, she was thoroughly lifeless and robotic in scenes with him or even dealing with Peter indirectly, but when she was allowed to interact with others, with any substance, she was mostly fine.

I'm with you there. I thought she was fine. I understand the robot comparisons but she just kind of came off as cool and unflappable to me. And she did a nice slow burn reaction when Kanesha (ugh, hate that character) trashed her house. 

[Bastet]

I've apparently mellowed in my middle age, because I am less annoyed by some characters this time around then I was originally.

Cynthia was still unbearable, and I still dislike Malucci, but - and I never would have anticipated saying this - Lucy didn't bug me as thoroughly this time.  (Maybe I've softened on Kellie Martin - who used to annoy me in anything I saw her in - because I'm so much further removed from Life Goes On, which is what started me disliking her in the first place [to be fair to her, everyone on that show annoyed me].)  And I'm not finding Michael Michele quite as wooden. 

[twinkietwin94]

Jumping in here as I've been rewatching the show on Pop too (recording the "two-parter" today and tomorrow so I can watch them back to back) 

It seems I have an UO, I liked Mark and Elizabeth together, not that I didn't like Elizabeth and Peter but I really liked E&M at least at the stage we see the relationship now.

[RedbirdNelly]

2 hours ago, Bastet said:

 Lucy didn't bug me as thoroughly this time.  (Maybe I've softened on Kellie Martin - who used to annoy me in anything I saw her in - because I'm so much further removed from Life Goes On, which is what started me disliking her in the first place [to be fair to her, everyone on that show annoyed me].)  And I'm not finding Michael Michele quite as wooden. 

I don't know why but there was something so annoying about just about everyone on Life Goes On. I also feel that is part of the reason I did not like Carter's first med student who just wanted to research--he was played by the same guy that played Jesse on Life Goes on and annoyed me on that show.

[desertflower]

16 hours ago, twinkietwin94 said:

Jumping in here as I've been rewatching the show on Pop too (recording the "two-parter" today and tomorrow so I can watch them back to back) 

It seems I have an UO, I liked Mark and Elizabeth together, not that I didn't like Elizabeth and Peter but I really liked E&M at least at the stage we see the relationship now.

I liked Mark and Elizabeth in the beginning too. I think they just wrote so much drama for them later (pregnancy, Ella's drug overdose, brain tumor, etc) that it became hard to remember why they liked each other in the first place. 

My UO might be that I liked Malucci. He was entertaining and had a nice smile. I know he was a jerky hotshot at times but I think that was the point...they were able to work in scenes of him growing a bit here and there, like when he comes back to read the wife's letter to the guy who already died. I didn't like his exit though. Calling Weaver a nasty name is kind of a sucky last scene to have. 

[callie lee 29]

I liked Cleo and Malucci. I hated  Abby. I also had a very low tolerance for Kerry. 

[slasherboy]

On 5/30/2017 at 5:36 PM, RedbirdNelly said:

I don't know why but there was something so annoying about just about everyone on Life Goes On. I also feel that is part of the reason I did not like Carter's first med student who just wanted to research--he was played by the same guy that played Jesse on Life Goes on and annoyed me on that show.

Jesse was played by Chad Lowe, Rob's younger brother.  He's very cool now, and the adoring dad of 3 little girls.

[BBHN]

Wasn't he also married to Hillary Swank?

[callie lee 29]

8 hours ago, BBHN said:

Wasn't he also married to Hillary Swank?

he was

[Granny58]

On 5/30/2017 at 3:46 PM, Bastet said:

I've apparently mellowed in my middle age, because I am less annoyed by some characters this time around then I was originally.

Cynthia was still unbearable, and I still dislike Malucci, but - and I never would have anticipated saying this - Lucy didn't bug me as thoroughly this time.  (Maybe I've softened on Kellie Martin - who used to annoy me in anything I saw her in - because I'm so much further removed from Life Goes On, which is what started me disliking her in the first place [to be fair to her, everyone on that show annoyed me].)  And I'm not finding Michael Michele quite as wooden. 

I'm the same way.  Lucy used to bug me, but not this time around.  I like benton much more than I did.  I like Kerry much more than I did.   I think Cleo is fine.   I'm even seeing the shades of Romano's psyche.    I still can't stand Haleh though.  Oh yeah, Peter's sister too.  I just can't stand the type of personality that is all up in your face.  Strong is fine (Kerry), snotty is not (Haleh and whatever peter's sister is named).  

Edited June 5, 2017 by Granny58

[RedbirdNelly]

I dislike Haleh more this time than I remembered. She can be nice and then suddenly turn on people. I don't like people whose go-to response is "that's not my job" in a snotty voice.

[ch1]

On rewatching I really dislike Amira.  Is she ever not bitchy?

[slasherboy]

Which one is Amira?

[ch1]

She is the desk clerk.  In All in the Family Luka asks her about the knife for the cake.

[Asp Burger]

Michael Michele was to ER what Shelley Hack had been to Charlie's Angels. Character never really got over with the audience; perceived as "replacing" a popular actress/character; barely made a mark despite sticking around for a while. Some of the issue was that MM did not stand out much in her performances, but also, she was introduced and, for the first several months, barely written for. So the series didn't do much to sell her to the audience other than say, "Here's the new character."  

What did Cleo do in the first three months she was on the show? Pretty much all we learned about her was that she was big on physical fitness. She ran, she jumped rope, she played basketball. So I think people cynically looked at her as Eriq La Salle's designated new love interest as well as an NBC response to circa-1999 criticism of the lack of diversity on the networks.  

Since she was introduced at a time when the show already had several new characters to introduce (Luka, Abby, Dave, and major-minor characters Gabe Lawrence and Elaine Nichols), she was totally lost in the shuffle. By the time they started writing for her, and even gave her an episode with her name in the title ("How The Finch Stole Christmas"), the stink of "superfluous" was all over her.  

To boil all of that down: MM wasn't any great shakes, but she didn't get a lot of help. She might have been better.  

Unpopular opinion: Carter was a love-to-hate character for me for most of the series, and I never got Luka. I thought Goran Visnjic was a charisma void. Abby was the only character in that triangle I liked much. But by that point, the show's best years were behind it, anyway. Seasons 1 through 3 were the best.  

[BBHN]

While I agree with much of what you wrote, who was Cleo/MM replacing?

[RedbirdNelly]

I liked the episode where Cleo played basketball with Mark. Maybe if they'd made her more of a character with better connections to the crew, she would have been more popular.

[starri]

2 hours ago, BBHN said:

While I agree with much of what you wrote, who was Cleo/MM replacing?

Partly Jeanie and partly Doug.

[BBHN]

That was a weird combo...funny enough, I think Cleo was the last pediatrics doctor we saw in the ER, no?

[starri]

I had zoned out by the end of the season Malucci got fired, so I have no idea if any of the newer characters did peds or not.  I also think that was around the time Neal Baer went off to do SVU, and he was an actual pediatrician, 

When Haleh revealed the wall in the basement with all of the name tags to Abby and Neela, was Maggie's there as well?  That was a nice touch.

[BBHN]

Maggie's was there, but strangely, I don't think Jeanie's was...

[RedbirdNelly]

I had mixed feelings on the wall in the basement. I didn't really buy it had been there until they came up with the idea for a sentimental moment in the last season. So my cynical side was kind of meh. But part of me liked it.

[Asp Burger]

Quote

While I agree with much of what you wrote, who was Cleo/MM replacing?

Quote

Partly Jeanie and partly Doug.

Yes. We had already heard that summer (1999) that Gloria Reuben was on the way out, so that, coupled with the lack of focus on Cleo and the publicity over La Salle's feelings re: what kind of woman his character should date, added to the impression that Cleo was just there to be The Black Woman. But that's a good point; she was a pediatric ER doctor, so she was partly filling the Doug void.  

Honestly, thinking back on it, the poor woman was written as though she were someone the show "had" to have and the writers resented it. They made her such a bad pediatrician. It was not all Michael Michele's performances. Cleo persistently failed to connect with the children she was treating, especially the younger ones. They would be behaving badly and she would be flustered or ineffectual in response. They didn't write her like someone who had the "touch" with kids. And this was the specialty she supposedly had chosen. It's not as though she were doing a pediatrics rotation and just marking off the days.  

Edited June 12, 2017 by Asp Burger

[GodsBeloved]

I found ER on POP so I'm rewatching too.

I HATE Kerry.

I was indifferent to Cleo but man MM can not act. I did like that she and Peter had a pretty solid relationship, maybe the most stable on the show and if I'm not mistaken when Peter came back in the finale, he and Cleo were still together.

I liked Abby but rewatching has been fed up with how she was when her family showed up. I get that she grew up with these issues with her mom then to find out Eric was bipolar but she was making it all about her, if not with Maggie then definitely when it came out that Eric was sick. She seemed more pissed that Eric was willing to go with Maggie and didn't want to go with her than she was about Eric. As Maggie said, Eric had to accept his situation and no one could force Eric into anything.  Abby should have known that given all she'd been through with Maggie.

Edited June 17, 2017 by GodsBeloved

[slf]

On 6/11/2017 at 10:57 PM, Asp Burger said:

They made her such a bad pediatrician. It was not all Michael Michele's performances. Cleo persistently failed to connect with the children she was treating, especially the younger ones. They would be behaving badly and she would be flustered or ineffectual in response. They didn't write her like someone who had the "touch" with kids. And this was the specialty she supposedly had chosen. It's not as though she were doing a pediatrics rotation and just marking off the days.  

This really stood out to me during the most recent airings of season six episodes. The little girl screaming bloody murder and running around the hospital causing havoc? Cleo had no idea how to handle that child. Or the little boy with diabetes and she was so aggressive in her diagnoses and treatment, acting like the kid had the plague and was going to die any moment? She really lacked that ability to connect with kids that Jeanie and Doug, and even Kerry, had. Given that we learn so much about these characters through their actions as doctors perhaps that's part of why I disliked Cleo so much during the original run. Oddly, she bothered me less this time around. Michael Michele isn't a great actress but I do think that part of Cleo's 'woodenness' is due to writing. They never really gave her character texture or a sense of humor. Scenes where they did bother to round her out showed some spark between her and her scene mate(s).

[Automne]

Rewatching this show 20+ years later and I'm no longer nine years old, I realize that Carol is one of the worst characters. Any potential her character had was ruined by her obsession with getting Dr. Ross to love her the same way she loves him. Aside from constantly walking around all lovelorn, she gets a rebound with Dr. Tagliatelli or whatever his name was but never properly loves him and accepts his marriage proposal (that he gives despite the fact that she cheated on him) and then he's somehow the bad guy when he leaves her right before their wedding. Granted, he should've made that grand realization that she's marrying him more to spite Doug than her actually loving Tag long before the wedding.

Then Carol gets knocked up with Doug's twins and thinks that these burgeoning lives she's incubating will be the magical tether to keep Doug where she wants him, but obviously, the man who already has a son he never sees had no qualms booking it to Seattle and made like one visit to see his daughters. He didn't even come towards the end of the pregnancy to make sure he'd be around for the birth. Then later Carol is whining about her life and unironically wondering how she ended up a single mother and outright said she kept the twins because she thought that would make Doug stay. Lady, if he wasn't going to stay for you, he's not staying for anybody or anything.

And the fact that neither Dour or Carol came to Mark's funeral is just beyond. Mark, who kept saving Doug's ass when his cowboy doc antics got him in trouble. Mark, who was Carol's emotional support when Doug left. And neither goddamn one of them could come to his funeral. Yes, I'm sure there were real-life logistical issues with getting Clooney and Margulies, but 1.) that's not in-universe and 2.) one would think that at least Clooney would be like, "Well, this was my character's BFF and there's no good excuse for him to NOT be at the funeral. I can spare a few hours to make an appearance and a quick eulogy and maybe make a run for that Best Guest Appearance Emmy."

[voiceover]

You can blame your dislike of Hathaway on the writing, her performance, or the whole "mileage varies" thing, but the reason H & R didn't show for Mark's funeral is because Margulies & Clooney felt it would upstage the event -- that it would be about their appearance, not his exit.  And agree/disagree, it's a fair assessment.

George came back for Julianna's exit, which made all past due debts fully paid, as far as fans of the couple (& I was one) were concerned.  Both made a cameo in the last season as well.

[desertflower]

I can sort of understand Clooney thinking his appearance would upstage the event, but JM certainly could've shown up. At the very least, the writers should've included a scene explaining they were out of the country or something, and they sent a heartfelt letter to Elizabeth and here, let's read it now. What's ironic is that they avoided having the characters return so they didn't take away from Mark's death, but look what we are still talking about lo this many years later. It was a huge distraction not to mention Doug and Carol and not have them acknowledge Mark's death. Even when Doug returned in the final season, he chats with the people from County (I think it was Sam and Neela, maybe?) And asks about Anspaugh and Kerry but does not mention Mark. I was hoping they would throw us a bone, like "Oh you guys are from County? How long have you been there? Ever work with Mark Greene?" It sounds clunky when I say it but I trust the writers could've come up with something. But no, they left us hanging again. I do appreciate Doug and Carol coming back at the end but I just wish they would've given them some sort of closure with Mark's death. 

[Bastet]

Yeah, I'm perfectly willing to believe the actors genuinely thought it would be improperly distracting and that's why they declined to appear, I just disagree that it would have been; I find the characters (especially Doug, but Carol too given how much of a friend to her Mark became) more distracting in their absence.  That panning shot of mourners instantly resulted in a "Where the hell is Doug?" reaction that lingered a lot longer than a "Hey, it's Doug!" reaction would have.  I would have liked them to be seen standing at the grave with the others, and that's it -- no need to include a later scene of catching up on life in Seattle with the twins, because that would interrupt the flow, but just showing us that yes, they came. 

[ch1]

They honestly didn't even have to show them.  Just pan a part of the mourners and then later just have Susan or Carter mention them being there.  

[voiceover]

On 6/23/2017 at 2:06 PM, ch1 said:

They honestly didn't even have to show them.  Just pan a part of the mourners and then later just have Susan or Carter mention them being there.  

Sure.  And I thought that at the time, too.  But I let it go.  Of all the ER things I'd love to TARDIS back with Doctor Who & fix, that doesn't even make the Top 100.  

And yes: there's a list.

As far as, "They blew it because we're still talking about it years later" -- well, we're all Monday Morning Showrunners about such things.  

Here's a realistic aspect to the characters' no-show: some people just don't do funerals.  Emotional baggage that can't be overcome, no matter the significance of the relationship involved.  And that just is what it is.

[slasherboy]

38 minutes ago, voiceover said:

Of all the ER things I'd love to TARDIS back with Doctor Who & fix, that doesn't even make the Top 100.  

And yes: there's a list.

Oooooh, I'm intrigued.  How about sharing the top 25?  Please?

[Bastet]

On 6/23/2017 at 2:06 PM, ch1 said:

They honestly didn't even have to show them.  Just pan a part of the mourners and then later just have Susan or Carter mention them being there.

Once the actors declined to appear, they wouldn't have written it that way, because it would have created the impression Clooney and Marguiles were asked and said no (which is apparently what happened, but it would have played even worse for them to be mentioned but unseen - it makes the actors' absence more glaring to mention the characters).  And they wouldn't have written it that way without first seeing if they could get an appearance by the actors, so we wind up in the same place.

Edited June 25, 2017 by Bastet

[twinkietwin94]

On 6/23/2017 at 3:08 PM, desertflower said:

I can sort of understand Clooney thinking his appearance would upstage the event, but JM certainly could've shown up. At the very least, the writers should've included a scene explaining they were out of the country or something, and they sent a heartfelt letter to Elizabeth and here, let's read it now. What's ironic is that they avoided having the characters return so they didn't take away from Mark's death, but look what we are still talking about lo this many years later. It was a huge distraction not to mention Doug and Carol and not have them acknowledge Mark's death. Even when Doug returned in the final season, he chats with the people from County (I think it was Sam and Neela, maybe?) And asks about Anspaugh and Kerry but does not mention Mark. I was hoping they would throw us a bone, like "Oh you guys are from County? How long have you been there? Ever work with Mark Greene?" It sounds clunky when I say it but I trust the writers could've come up with something. But no, they left us hanging again. I do appreciate Doug and Carol coming back at the end but I just wish they would've given them some sort of closure with Mark's death. 

This bugged me just like Sam not coming to Leo's funeral on The West Wing and I know that was a scheduling conflict for Rob Lowe but in both TWW and ER they could have explained it so easy with a letter or a one sided phone conversation, someone mentioning they saw them at the funeral but bc of a case they had to rush back home.

[ShortyMac]

On 6/19/2017 at 8:47 AM, slf said:

This really stood out to me during the most recent airings of season six episodes. The little girl screaming bloody murder and running around the hospital causing havoc? Cleo had no idea how to handle that child. Or the little boy with diabetes and she was so aggressive in her diagnoses and treatment, acting like the kid had the plague and was going to die any moment? She really lacked that ability to connect with kids that Jeanie and Doug, and even Kerry, had. Given that we learn so much about these characters through their actions as doctors perhaps that's part of why I disliked Cleo so much during the original run. Oddly, she bothered me less this time around. Michael Michele isn't a great actress but I do think that part of Cleo's 'woodenness' is due to writing. They never really gave her character texture or a sense of humor. Scenes where they did bother to round her out showed some spark between her and her scene mate(s).

A Cleo story line that I really liked was the episode with the overstressed/overworked teen girl who crashed her car. Cleo put a cast on her arm to try to give her a break, but she gave in to her parents.

[slf]

12 hours ago, ShortyMac said:

A Cleo story line that I really liked was the episode with the overstressed/overworked teen girl who crashed her car. Cleo put a cast on her arm to try to give her a break, but she gave in to her parents.

I enjoyed that story line (and seeing a young Gabrielle Union who looks exactly the same as she does today) too. Cleo was so compassionate with the girl and came up with a clever workaround so she could avoid having to play. They really should've given Cleo more episodes like that; it showed her more empathetic side while giving us a peek into why Cleo was so tightly-wound.