Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[stealinghome]

I love Snowing and I would drop the show if the writing permanently killed off one or both of them (not that I would miss Snow a ton at this point, but I don't want to see poor Charming sad for the rest of his life)--but I agree that the writers have way too often made Snowing's storyline just each other, and have in some respects made it very superficial by having it basically consist of them saying "I love you" ad nauseum (although superficial treatments of character relationships literally applies to ever other relationship on the show, it's not like any of them are any deeper, so I suppose they're not alone in that). I'm not sure if it's laziness, lack of imagination, wanting to capitalize on the Goodwin/Dallas chemistry, or just bad writing--I've talked before about how characters on this show really only interact with the same 2-3 other characters and it's a problem--but their somewhat isolation does neither character (particularly Snow) any favors. One of the highlights of 3B, for me, was that it took Charming out of Snow's orbit and really strengthened his bonds with some of the other characters. So while I would never want all the heartfelt declarations of love to go away--for my money, after 3x14 the only 3B fairyback sequence worth watching was their goodbye in 3x19--I agree that the show could do with less of them.

 

The writers need to stop defaulting to Snowing's storyline being each other and give them individual storylines. The problem is, we already have way too many characters, so that won't happen.

 

(What baffles me is that there are so many obvious storylines they could give to both of them, I don't understand how they can not know what to do with either character. Which is true of all the characters on the show, really. With the setup they've given themselves, this show really should write itself. I actually don't understand how the writers are clearly perpetually out of ideas.)

Edited July 7, 2014 by stealinghome

[regularlyleaded]

but I agree that the writers have way too often made Snowing's storyline just each other, and have in some respects made it very superficial by having it basically consist of them saying "I love you" ad nauseum (although superficial treatments of character relationships literally applies to ever other relationship on the show, it's not like any of them are any deeper, so I suppose they're not alone in that).

This is part of my frustration (I mean, I still hate Snowing, but if they talked about something else that wasn't their undying love (or baby do over) that would be a tad helpful). 

 

What was intriguing to me about this show way back in season 1 was that the show was examining stories beyond the cliched fairytale romantic True Love. They were looking at the love of families - mother and daughters, fathers and sons - and friendships like Snow and Red. But the show has taken what were interesting relationships (and highly unconventional in the case of Emma and her same-age parents) that could've been really explored and delved into in the subsequent seasons and they've reduced the show back to the cliched Romantic True Love stories.  And it's not like the writers exhausted exploring the other non-romantic relationships. The writing flat out dropped everything that wasn't a romantic storyline like a forty-two ton rock.

 

Just look, they've coupled off every main character on the show. There's Snow and Charming, Regina and Hood, Rumpel and Belle, and Emma and Hook. And every character's story now revolves around their "coupling". That's just so been there done that (and done better elsewhere in half of those cases). And I'm not against romantic storylines (Lord knows I don't watch "Castle" for the murder cases), but this show has managed to become only about the romantic couples and gives only lip service to anything else. The show has in many ways become the very cliche it was trying to subvert.

Edited July 8, 2014 by regularlyleaded

[Dani-Ellie]

I think they had to introduce the baby storyline, not just because Goodwin was pregnant (because LBR, they could've just put her in a coma for a few months like every other soap opera does and seeing how 3B unfolded I really, really, really wish they had never introduced baby do over.

 

Here's my thing with Baby Snowflake: I felt like it was way too soon for that kind of manufactured drama. And the awful thing was, it didn't have to be too soon. If they had properly addressed the issues within the Charming Family in season 2 like we were expecting, maybe come the middle of season 3, I would have felt less like Snow and Charming just wanted a do-over baby. If we at least had some kind of sense where everyone stood with each other, maybe it would have looked less like Snow was just giving up on Emma and wanted a child she could actually raise instead.

 

But now that Baby Snowflake is here, I really wish they would use him for some real Charming Family conversations. I'm sure Ginny's going to be on light duty for a little while because like, she just had a baby a month ago, so why not use that time to have some conversations with Emma? Why not have Baby Snowflake remind everyone of all the things Emma never had?

 

I'm not saying I need to see Emma go all Labyrinth on her baby brother because she is an adult, but you can't tell me that someone with Emma's history is going to be 100% okay with watching her baby brother have everything she never did. Her parents and the baby are going to bond on a level that she and her parents never will. She's going to watch this child grow up surrounded by love and affection and support while she had none of it. I think it's okay to acknowledge that that sucks for Emma, and that it does not negate her happiness for her parents or her love for her baby brother. (I can actually see Emma going full-on Protective Big Sister, simply because she knows what it's like to have no one looking out for you.) And I also think it's okay to acknowledge that that sucks for Snow and Charming, too, that they'll never get to do for Emma all the things that they'll get to do for Baby Snowflake.

 

I would love to see a conversation amongst all three of them along those lines. And yet, we're going into season 4 of this show and the Charming Family has proved to be low screentime priority, so I know it will never happen. *sigh*

Edited July 7, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[KAOS Agent]

 

You can't tell me that someone with Emma's history is going to be 100% okay with watching her baby brother have everything she never did. Her parents and the baby are going to bond on a level that she and her parents never will. She's going to watch this child grow up surrounded by love and affection and support while she had none of it. I think it's okay to acknowledge that that sucks for Emma, and that it does not negate her happiness for her parents or her love for her baby brother.

 

The number one problem with this scenario is that it would require the show to acknowledge the absolute and irreparable damage to Emma that Rumpel & Regina are responsible for. I firmly believe this is also why you will never see Emma being abused or even just benignly neglected in foster care. I do like that Jennifer Morrison has said that she has subtly added Emma's healthy appetite as a nod towards the fact that many in foster care have experienced starvation and are always aware that they never know where their next meal may come from. But this show has always tiptoed around actually showing exactly how bad it was for Emma growing up.

 

The second problem they will have with Emma showing any kind of response to seeing her brother get what she didn't is that it will come off as jealousy. It's such a fine line to walk that I'm not sure they can express how awful it is for Emma to see what she missed out on without it seeming like an adult irrationally jealous of a baby. Although I will say that they did a pretty good job in the finale of having the Charmings fawn all over their baby with Emma standing right there thinking about how she'd always been left behind and never having a home. But it was just so damn uncomfortable for me to watch because her parents seemed completely clueless as to Emma's feelings there. And I don't have a whole lot of hope for the parent/child relationship when Snow and Charming (particularly Snow) never seem to understand that Emma might actually have feelings about something that are different from their own.

[Shanna Marie]

The annoying thing about the way they're writing Snow and David now is that they didn't start out being so cloying. Heck, the name everyone uses for him in the Enchanted Forest was something she dubbed him with when she was being snarky and ironic. She doesn't call him "Charming" because he's such an ideal prince (even though he turned out to be). But somewhere along the way, they seem to have forgotten that she's a total badass (and was even after having been Mary Margaret) and that his defining characteristic is his courage -- even against her. They challenged each other. There was snarky banter. The "I will always find you" bit came because their life together was so difficult that this was an actual issue. This relationship thrown into a normal American domestic setting could be good for tons of fun, but instead, they seem to have domesticated them, even when they're back in the Enchanted Forest, and they've almost entirely lost their sense of humor with each other. I love them in the season one fairybacks. But then that memory curse hit the writers and they seem to be writing entirely different characters.

[Dani-Ellie]

I do like that Jennifer Morrison has said that she has subtly added Emma's healthy appetite as a nod towards the fact that many in foster care have experienced starvation and are always aware that they never know where their next meal may come from. But this show has always tiptoed around actually showing exactly how bad it was for Emma growing up.

 

I believe Jen has also said that she plays Emma as if there had been abuse in her past. And I completely agree that tipping the sympathy scales too far in Emma's favor at the expense of Rumple and Regina is one of the biggest reasons the show will never address Emma's past. But again, that's the writers' own faults. They're the ones who had Snow and Charming have to send Emma off on her own to survive the curse and Regina's guards and they're the ones who set Emma up as a child lost to the system, so the fact that they seem to be so unwilling to delve into what that kind of upbringing would mean for Emma's emotional and physical development is immensely frustrating. Especially when you consider that they showed Cora emotionally abusing Regina and it was hinted very strongly that there was physical abuse there as well (Cora magically restraining Regina and Regina saying she'd be good), and especially when you consider that they showed Wee Rumple's abandonment by his father. How Emma got to be how she is is (or should be) just as important as how Regina and Rumple got to be how they are.

 

 

 

The second problem they will have with Emma showing any kind of response to seeing her brother get what she didn't is that it will come off as jealousy. It's such a fine line to walk that I'm not sure they can express how awful it is for Emma to see what she missed out on without it seeming like an adult irrationally jealous of a baby.

 

It is indeed a very fine line, which is why I added in the part of that sense of heartbreak over the things they all missed being tempered with the happiness Emma has for her parents and the love for her brother. Human emotion is far more complicated than all or nothing, though with how they handled Zelena's jealousy, I understand the hesitation. It's not even necessarily a jealousy I'm envisioning ... it's more this wistfulness and a longing for something that can never happen. It's more "I can never have this" than "I hate him because he has everything I never did."

Edited July 8, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[stealinghome]

To be fair to the writers, I thought they did that well in 3x21, when Emma was watching David hold Snowflake--you definitely got the sense that she was very wistful, very retrospective, but it didn't at all come off as jealousy, to me. Just, you know, wistfulness.

 

So it's not impossible for them to do Emma's feelings justice (though, you know, there are many things that for the writers aren't strictly impossible, and yet).

[Mari]

To be fair to the writers, I thought they did that well in 3x21, when Emma was watching David hold Snowflake--you definitely got the sense that she was very wistful, very retrospective, but it didn't at all come off as jealousy, to me. Just, you know, wistfulness.

 

So it's not impossible for them to do Emma's feelings justice (though, you know, there are many things that for the writers aren't strictly impossible, and yet).

I have to agree with how it came off--but how much of that was writing, and how much of that was acting choices?  Because it seems like Morrison and Dallas both do as much as they can with body language and the little moments, and I'm not sure how scripted those are.

[regularlyleaded]

Human emotion is far more complicated than all or nothing, though with how they handled Zelena's jealousy, I understand the hesitation. It's not even necessarily a jealousy I'm envisioning ... it's more this wistfulness and a longing for something that can never happen. It's more "I can never have this" than "I hate him because he has everything I never did."

Interestingly enough, in an interview last year at New York Comic Con with Jennifer Morrison, an interviewer asked her that very question if there was going to be any sort of wistfulness from Emma when she sees her parents putting all this love and attention into another child, and Morrison basically said that yes it was something she thought was likely and with each script she looked to see if it was there on the pages, but it just wasn't written that way. So Jennifer's headcanon to explain why it's not is that Emma doesn't generally feel that wistfullness or longing because she has no idea what it would be like to be in that position - of being raised by loving parents. The logic being that Emma can't be wistful of something she never had and can't recognize.

 

Basically, what I got from that bit of the interview was that Jennifer would've liked to have played that out but the writers don't care [to take it in that direction].

Edited July 8, 2014 by regularlyleaded

[ParadoxLost]

Here's my thing with Baby Snowflake: I felt like it was way too soon for that kind of manufactured drama. And the awful thing was, it didn't have to be too soon. If they had properly addressed the issues within the Charming Family in season 2 like we were expecting, maybe come the middle of season 3, I would have felt less like Snow and Charming just wanted a do-over baby. If we at least had some kind of sense where everyone stood with each other, maybe it would have looked less like Snow was just giving up on Emma and wanted a child she could actually raise instead.

 

I agree, they got stuck because they skipped over the natural time to deal with the Charming family issues in season 2.  But what makes me crazy is that they don't seem to have a handle on their narrative.

 

The Charming part of this came off really well.  Snow got sidelined with the pregnancy.  All of a sudden Charming is having dreams about raising Emma and dancing with her at her first ball and nightmares of her being ripped away.  He's mourning everything he missed with Emma.  He's afraid his failings will let it happen again with the new baby.  He learns his daughter is planning to leave because they haven't become a family, not really.  He keeps her confidences.  Absent Snow, with a new baby on the way, Charming became everything I wanted him to be (factoring in the writer's limitations).

 

Snow wants a do over baby.  I want to tear her hair out on a regular basis because she is completely oblivious.

 

What makes me crazy is that there is no sign that the writers or Emma see any difference in Snow and Charming's behavior. 

Edited July 8, 2014 by ParadoxLost

[formerlyfreedom]

I also wonder about Emma watching her parents raise a newborn son, when she was not able to raise Henry. I know the memories were overwritten at the end of 3A, but when she got her memories back, she would have remember that, and I wonder how much her emotions will be impacted by that. So not just what she missed with her parents, but what she missed with her son.

[Dani-Ellie]

To be fair to the writers, I thought they did that well in 3x21, when Emma was watching David hold Snowflake--you definitely got the sense that she was very wistful, very retrospective, but it didn't at all come off as jealousy, to me. Just, you know, wistfulness.

 

Yes, I loved that. I would love to see an actual conversation built on that. :)

 

Basically, what I got from that bit of the interview was that Jennifer would've like to have played that out but the writers don't care.

 

*sigh*

 

But even her explanation of why Emma wouldn't be wistful is so heartbreaking and makes me just want to hug her. My poor baby.

 

So not just what she missed with her parents, but what she missed with her son.

 

Ooh, I like it! You see, writers?? There's a freakin' goldmine here! Ugh, the wasted potential within the entire Charming Family scenario makes me so sad.

[ShadowFacts]

 

She's going to watch this child grow up surrounded by love and affection and support while she had none of it. I think it's okay to acknowledge that that sucks for Emma, and that it does not negate her happiness for her parents or her love for her baby brother. (I can actually see Emma going full-on Protective Big Sister, simply because she knows what it's like to have no one looking out for you.) And I also think it's okay to acknowledge that that sucks for Snow and Charming, too, that they'll never get to do for Emma all the things that they'll get to do for Baby Snowflake.

 

Having an open acknowledgement of how complex their history is would go so far to establishing familial bonds between the three age peers.  They have such a very unconventional situation that needs a little fleshing out or there is just too much wasted opportunity for something actually original to happen.  I mean, children of divorce often have to face one or maybe both of their parents starting over with a new family and that is what Emma is facing but as an adult child of parents who she has no shared history with and are the same age as she.  Gold mine. 

[ParadoxLost]

I also wonder about Emma watching her parents raise a newborn son, when she was not able to raise Henry. I know the memories were overwritten at the end of 3A, but when she got her memories back, she would have remember that, and I wonder how much her emotions will be impacted by that. So not just what she missed with her parents, but what she missed with her son.

 

I could see Emma locking it away and not allowing herself to be wistful over what she missed with her parents or with Henry because she gave Henry away and that is how she punishes herself.  That is precisely why the thing that always annoys me most is not Emma but Snow and her cartoon character sweetness and light about the whole thing. The la la la between Snow's ears frustrates me to no end.

 

 

Interestingly enough, in an interview last year at New York Comic Con with Jennifer Morrison, an interviewer asked her that very question if there was going to be any sort of wistfulness from Emma when she sees her parents putting all this love and attention into another child, and Morrison basically said that yes it was something she thought was likely and with each script she looked to see if it was there on the pages, but it just wasn't written that way.

 

Well,  that is incredibly depressing but not surprising.

[regularlyleaded]

There's a freakin' goldmine here! Ugh, the wasted potential within the entire Charming Family scenario makes me so sad.

I think the writers, under pain of death, are not allowed to write anything remotely uncomfortable about The Charming Family dynamic. And if they do write something awkward they have to pretend it never happened. And it's just rooted all the way back in season 2.

 

To this day, there's a scene towards the end of "The Cricket Game" that drives me bonkers. It's the scene where Emma is fretting over telling Henry the news that Archie is dead because Regina supposedly killed him, and she says [to Snow and David] something like "I don't know how to be a parent because I never was one." (Not those exact words, but that was the gist). And to this day, I'm thinking that is the dumbest thing I've ever heard, writers. Of course you're not a parent until you are. That's how it freaking works! No one is born a parent. Sheesh.

 

I'm willing to bet ridiculous amounts of money that I don't have, that Emma's original line was something more like "I don't know how to be a parent because I never had one." Oh, looky there. That makes 1000 times more sense and sounds like a legitimate worry. But God forbid Emma say that to Snow and Charming because then Charming couldn't have the fantastic rebuttal of "And I was yours for 5 minutes." I mean, what? Thanks Charmz, but that does Emma no good because she still doesn't know what real parenting should be like because SHE NEVER HAD ANY. 

 

Honestly, what is going on in that writers room that they can't write this relationship with any degree of realism and honesty?! The whole thing is just begging (BEGGING!) to be explored.

 

But even her explanation of why Emma wouldn't be wistful is so heartbreaking and makes me just want to hug her. My poor baby.

I know, right?! So sad...

Edited July 8, 2014 by regularlyleaded

[ParadoxLost]

I think the writers, under pain of death, are not allowed to write anything remotely uncomfortable about The Charming Family dynamic. And if they do write something awkward they have to pretend it never happened. And it's just rooted all the way back in season 2.

 

To this day, there's a scene towards the end of "The Cricket Game" that drives me bonkers. It's the scene where Emma is fretting over telling Henry the news that Archie is dead because Regina supposedly killed him, and she says something like "I don't know how to be a parent because I never was one." (Not those exact words, but that was the gist). And to this day, I'm thinking that is the dumbest thing I've ever heard, writers. Of course you're not a parent until you are. That's how it freakin works! No one is born a parent. Sheesh.

 

I'm willing to bet ridiculous amounts of money that I don't have, that the original line was something more like "I don't know how to be a parent because I never had one." Oh, looky there. That makes 1000 times more sense and sounds like a legitimate worry. But god forbid Emma says that to Snow and Charming because then Charming couldn't have the fantastic rebuttal of "And I was yours for 5 minutes." I mean, what? Thanks Charmz, but that does Emma no good because she still doesn't know what real parenting should be like because SHE NEVER HAD ANY. 

 

Honestly, what is going on in that writers room that they can't write this relationship with any degree of realism and honesty?! The whole thing is just begging (BEGGING!) to be explored.

 

I know, right?! So sad...

 

I'd bet you are right.  Because the beginning of "Cricket Game" where Emma finds Snowing in bed and Charming jokes about being able to give Emma traumatic childhood memories at this late stage felt tonally very off.  Too soon and not something that parents who'd had their child taken from them until she was an adult would be able to giggle about.  And then they started deleting the scenes that addressed the family dynamic.

[KAOS Agent]

My opinion of where these writers will take the Charming family relationship is so low that I can actually imagine a scenario where Emma tries to help with Snowflake and is brushed off by Snow because she doesn't know anything about babies and being a parent and then turns to Regina for advice. Interestingly enough, I would bet that Emma actually has more experience with children from living in the foster system than any of these other adults combined. 

 

I also have some horrible thoughts about Snow complaining about how hard parenting is. Which I mean, she wanted her do over baby so complaints won't be taken well by me. Lack of sleep or baby constantly crying, yes okay, but general it's so hard being a mommy complaints will not go over well. Especially not when there's a very actively involved father, a whole community of support and seemingly no money issues. One of the things I think this show completely glossed over in Emma's year in New York was that she was the sole support for Henry and how hard she had to have worked to get where she was. There was literally no one else to help and she started that year with zero possessions and no job as well. I will not handle it at all well if parental hijinks revolve around anything that ignores the Charmings' massive privilege. 

[Dani-Ellie]

To be honest, I'm kind of waiting for the moment when Snow realizes that parenting a newborn is no easier than parenting a same-age daughter, and that the reason she didn't know what to do for Emma didn't come from not having raised Emma but from the fact that she was a new parent.

Edited July 8, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[YaddaYadda]

The difference between Emma and Do-over is that Emma can actually talk back which they should let her do more often.

[FabulousTater]

I hope Elsa freezes Snow and Charming (and baby do over) for all of season 4 so that they're just ice statues for the entire season.

I'm generally indifferent to Snowing (push comes to shove, I'd say I find them cloying at best). But, having them frozen for most of 4B? Gotta say, I'm totally down with this. And it solves the problem if Goodwin and Dallas need more downtime to be with their RL baby. Snow, Charming and Baby Snowflake Ice Sculptures - let's make it happen, writers.

[Mari]

I'm generally indifferent to Snowing (push comes to shove, I'd say I find them cloying at best). But, having them frozen for most of 4B? Gotta say, I'm totally down with this. And it solves the problem if Goodwin and Dallas need more downtime to be with their RL baby. Snow, Charming and Baby Snowflake Ice Sculptures - let's make it happen, writers.

Can we just ice statue Snow and Nealflake?  Because I've actually really liked most of the Emma/David interaction in 3B. 

[FabulousTater]

Can we just ice statue Snow and Nealflake?  Because I've actually really liked most of the Emma/David interaction in 3B.

 

Sure, I'd be down with that option. Oh, wait….Hmm. A frozen Snow and Baby Snowflake would be all Charming would talk about while they were on ice….that would get real, real, old after a while. Emma at least has Hook to "distract" her. Hmm, I don't know, I still think Snowing + Snowflake frozen all together is the better option.

 

But beggars can't be choosers. I won't frown upon just a frozen Snow and Snowflake. :-P

Edited July 8, 2014 by FabulousTater

[kitticup]

I like Ginny and Josh.  They are good actors and when given adequate material make that material better.  There is so much that can be done with Snowing and to be honest I am far more interested in exploring their relationship with Emma, their old EF friends, adjusting to be parents to a newborn and a grown daughter and grandparents to a teenager and adjusting to having Hook as a potential son in law.  I want to see them take control over the town.  Snow challenging Regina as mayor.  I would like to see Snow starting to lead again.   I want Snow to get her groove back. 

 

The thing I don't want is more Snowing true love speeches, or more Snowing vs Regina flashbacks.  I like the flashbacks but the Regina  and Snowing ones are repetitive and make me angry because time could be better spent deepening relationships instead of retread. 

 

I don't want to watch Outlaw Queen.  I find OQ lacking in chemistry and I cannot accept how quickly that relationship developed.  I like Regina but I don't like her are the center/heart of the show.  That should be Emma or to a lesser extent Snow.

 

While I like Captain Swan, I don't want that to totally define Emma and/or Hook.  Yes, I want to see the relationship continue to develop, but  I want them to have other relationships and to be their own people.  I want Hook to struggle to find a place for himself in StoryBrooke and to be ultimately successful with that.  The original Hook like music and plays the harp one-handed.  I don't see why Hook can't have a hobby or job related to music. 

[stealinghome]

A frozen Snow and Baby Snowflake would be all Charming would talk about while they were on ice….that would get real, real, old after a while.

I'm pretty sure that a frozen Snow and Baby Snowflake would be all Emma would be able to think about, so he'd have good company.

[FabulousTater]

I'm pretty sure that a frozen Snow and Baby Snowflake would be all Emma would be able to think about, so he'd have good company.

I don't know, Hook was able to "distract" Emma in Neverland during #SaveHenry. I could see some time taken for other activities. At least conversations that didn't involve defrosting Snow and Snowflake. I would kinda love it if Emma was like, "What's the hurry, David? They're frozen. It's not like they're going anywhere. Take a chill pill, man." 

 

(I know Emma wouldn't say that, but that doesn't mean I don't find the possibility any less amusing. ;) )

Edited July 8, 2014 by FabulousTater

[Camera One]

Freezing Snow, Charming and Baby would probably be the writer's greatest wish, since it's probably most intellectually taxing to figure out what to do with them every season.  I wouldn't give them the easy way out there.

[FabulousTater]

Freezing Snow, Charming and Baby would probably be the writer's greatest wish, since it's probably most intellectually taxing to figure out what to do with them every season.  I wouldn't give them the easy way out there.

I'm willing to give them this out this one time. If there ever was a time to take advantage of a way to not have to write anything for them, this would be it. I mean, come on, Elsa inadvertently freezes them! It's perfect! 

 

It at least removes Snow as Regina's cheerleader for the time being (Huzzah!). And maybe Regina doesn't want to get involved in helping defrost Snowing 'cause she's like "Help? Why would I help? Your parents turning into Snow Cones sounds like a personal problem, Ms. Swan. You better get on that. I'll be over here having some victory cake and ice cream (and also possibly planning your demise…again)." Not saying that's the way they would go with it, but it does open up the possibilities...

Edited July 8, 2014 by FabulousTater

[KAOS Agent]

At the very least it would work for them if Ginny wanted to take a full 3 months of maternity leave. She could show up day 1 for filming, turn into a popsicle and stay that way until she was ready to return. There could be Snowing angst from David and I wouldn't want to reach through my TV and slap some sense into Snow all the time.

[FabulousTater]

At the very least it would work for them if Ginny wanted to take a full 3 months of maternity leave. She could show up day 1 for filming, turn into a popsicle and stay that way until she was ready to return. There could be Snowing angst from David and I wouldn't want to reach through my TV and slap some sense into Snow all the time.

Now that you mention it, I hope Ginny takes all the maternity leave she can because if the actress is out on leave then not only could they freeze her in present day to account for her absence, but it could also mean a hiatus on Snowing flashbacks. And that would be a most welcomed reprieve. I've had my absolute fill of Snowing flashbacks. I'm so over their flashbacks I'm under them.

Edited July 8, 2014 by FabulousTater

[patchwork]

 

 

I'm not saying I need to see Emma go all Labyrinth on her baby brother because she is an adult, 

 

I'm not biggest fan of Henry screen time but it would make some sense for him to wish Nealflake away to the goblins, it could even be a B/C storyline where he has his own mini adventure but their back before anyone misses them. 

[KAOS Agent]

I'm curious. I know Snowing has a theme song and so do Captain Swan moments. Is there such a thing for Rumbelle or Outlaw Queen moments?

[Camera One]

Rumbelle does have a distinct musical motif played whenever they're onscreen.  

 

Will need to rewatch for Outlaw Queen but if there is, it's not very distinctive (and I'm not going to rewatch unless there's monetary reward).

Edited July 9, 2014 by Camera One

[retrograde]

Just did a quick Outlaw Queen sweep -- doesn't seem to be one. The music is kinda sorta vaguely similar, but also super generic. There is certainly nothing distinctively "theirs."

[Camera One]

Honestly, what is going on in that writers room that they can't write this relationship with any degree of realism and honesty?! The whole thing is just begging (BEGGING!) to be explored.

 

It is begging to be explored, and I'm been yearning to watch it since Season 1. 

 

 

 

What baffles me is that there are so many obvious storylines they could give to [snow and Charming], I don't understand how they can not know what to do with either character.

 

I think the reason is simply that they are boring (to the writers).  Married couples are boring, platonic friendships are boring and parent-child relationships are boring (unless the parent is psycho but even then, it's boring,,, bring out the sadistic bar wench!).  These relationships are to be put on ice figuratively and probably literally in Season 4 with all the new characters.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Camera One

[FabulousTater]

I'm curious. I know Snowing has a theme song and so do Captain Swan moments. Is there such a thing for Rumbelle or Outlaw Queen moments?

The sounds of baby dolphins being clubbed??? No?

Okay. Fair enough. That could just be what I hear in my head.

[Geeni]

Taken from the Con thread:

 

 

Every CS kiss has been initiated by Emma

 

LOL Absolutely not. Nope. The one in Good Form was purely Hook emotionally blackmailing/manipulating Emma into it, which is also part of rape culture.

 

In fact, with the exception of Snow/Charming, every ship on this show fits the bill of it. They're all terrible and awful relationships and the fact that they're being billed as this "true love" crap is disturbing.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Geeni

[MaiLuna]

I don't think Emma can be manipulated into kissing someone. When Graham first kissed her (and she had feelings for him) she pushed him away. Emma clearly enjoyed the kiss and told Mary Margaret she kissed him because she was feeling good. And then she encouraged his feelings by the townline. Emma hates giving false hope, so she did have some feeelings for Hook. I don't think a couple of flirty comments by Hook can manipulate Emma into kissing him.

 

 

with the exception of Snow/Charming

You do remember Snowing's first kiss was actually forced on Snow by Charming?

[InsertWordHere]

Taken from the Con thread:

 

 

LOL Absolutely not. Nope. The one in Good Form was purely Hook emotionally blackmailing/manipulating Emma into it, which is also part of rape culture.

That's your opinion, there is no purely about it. In order to blackmail someone, you have to hold something over them that forces them to do something they don't want to do. Tell me, what was Hook holding over Emma? A superstition that if she didn't display her thanks in the form of a kiss that the Neverland gods would somehow know and Charming would keel over and die from Emma's failure to retroactively express the proper amount of gratitude? I don't think so. Or was Hook threatening that if she didn't kiss him, he would go finish what the dreamshade started and kill Charming himself? No, that wasn't it either. So what was Hook using to manipulate her? The only way this works is if Emma has some sort of fifth grade mentality that made her feel like she had to kiss him or else Charming's life would have somehow lost all meaning. That's not Emma.

 

Nor does Emma ever say she was manipulated into it, even though it would have given her an out when she was later willingly sharing the story with her mother. In fact, she tells Snow that she kissed him because she "was feeling good."

[MaiLuna]

Plus, if it had been for that, she wouldn't have put so much emotion (and time) into it, she'd have just given him a quick peck on the lips. There's no way someone like Emma would've put so much passion into a manipulated thank you kiss.

Edited July 9, 2014 by MaiLuna

[Rumsy4]

Let's not forget that Charming went after Snow after she explicitly told him she did not love him (even though it was a lie), and told Red that he was going to convince her otherwise. He then proceeded to kiss her without her consent, because he was trying to restore her memories of him. Is that part of "rape culture" too, or is he immune because he is Prince Charming?

Hook on the other hand, backed off after Emma said she choose Henry, and only got hope back when she said "Good!" to him at the town line. Ever since, she's been more honest with him than with anyone else and has wanted him by her side. Otherwise, she would have said so--she had no problems ripping into him when the Zelena thing happened. She also initiated the kiss outside the Diner.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Rumsy4

[Dani-Ellie]

Yeah, I'm also not seeing any kind of manipulation of Emma here. Emma's no shrinking violet. I don't see her having any problem telling someone to go screw if they're bothering her.

 

I'm not at all seeing the Neverland kiss as emotional blackmail. If Emma had had a problem with Hook teasing her about that kiss, wouldn't she have walked away and not smiled at him? Wouldn't she have turned away and not teased him back? And let's not forget who grabbed whom by the lapels, planted that kiss, and let it linger.

 

In my perspective, Emma had all the power here. Hook was like a third-grader in puppy love, waiting for the cool girl in his class to notice he exists. Relationships with Emma develop at Emma's pace, because that's how she is.

 

Like I've said before, context matters. Emma's never had anyone stand by her. Emma's never had anyone want to be with her simply because she's Emma. There's always been something bigger than her, something more important, and Emma always got left behind. For me, seeing someone offer her that kind of support was lovely. I think that's how any kind of relationship with someone as closed off as Emma has to start ... because Emma needed a reason to believe Hook was different from everyone else in her life up until that point. And when Emma opened that door at the end of "Going Home" to see Hook standing there, I remember thinking, "She finally has her own 'I will always find you.'" Which, to me, was a wonderful thing.

 

I totally understand that this is my read on the text. I get that there can be other reads on the text. And I agree that this show is very problematic when it comes to morality and personal relationships. I just don't think that the developing relationship of these two particular characters, especially taking into consideration the characters' histories, is in itself indicative of a problem.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[ShadowFacts]

 

I think the reason is simply that they are boring (to the writers).  Married couples are boring, platonic friendships are boring and parent-child relationships are boring (unless the parent is psycho but even then, it's boring,,, bring out the sadistic bar wench!).  These relationships are to be put on ice figuratively and probably literally in Season 4 with all the new characters.

 

I suspect this may be true about the writers.  For me, it is the romantic relationships that tend to get a little boring, a combination of I'm not much of a shipper and these writers view relationships at something of an adolescent level.  They can do it if they want, they did a very good platonic friend/sidekick in Will Scarlett on 'Wonderland'.  They just apparently don't want to, or different writers were in charge.

[Souris]

LOL Absolutely not. Nope. The one in Good Form was purely Hook emotionally blackmailing/manipulating Emma into it, which is also part of rape culture.

 

And this, in a nutshell, is exactly why so many fans have a problem with the rape culture argument and figure it's put forth mainly by bitter shippers, and why the proponents of it may feel like they're not taken seriously by the fandom at large -- because it's divorced so completely from context and focused on the wrong things. It's this argument, not Hook, that strips Emma of her power and agency. If Emma didn't WANT to kiss Hook, there was no way she was kissing Hook. Saying otherwise completely ignores Emma's feelings in the matter -- and isn't THAT a part of rape culture?

 

It's funny -- and by funny, I mean not at all funny, more like suspicious -- that proponents of the rape culture argument point only to incidents involving Hook. Not the long list of actual, other problematic behaviors and characters on the show, starting with Rapist in Chief Regina. Or wife-murdering, Belle-deceiving Rumple. Or Neal, who actually took away 17-year-old Emma's agency along with August by setting her up to go to jail and not telling her the truth of who she is. If they used these things as their primary evidence, then they would actually have a leg or two to stand on. I would totally see their point then, because these things ARE problematic. But no, they focus on Hook, who flirts as a defense mechanism, accepts Emma's terms for their relationship and is constantly building her up and celebrating her power, far more than any other character.

[Mari]

 But no, they focus on Hook, who flirts as a defense mechanism, accepts Emma's terms for their relationship and is constantly building her up and celebrating her power, far more than any other character.

I know there was the incident with Belle, but that was in context more about Rumple, and not really a long-term association.

 

Have we seen Hook in a long-term association with a woman where he seemed to have more power?  Because he didn't with Cora, Regina, or Emma, and I think it's debatable who held the power base with Milah.

[Shanna Marie]

I found it interesting, and a little disturbing, that they juxtaposed Rumple murdering his wife for leaving him -- the ultimate act of domestic violence -- with Gold withholding from Belle the fact that her father was still alive, in Storybrooke and looking for her -- which is often one of the first steps in a relationship that could become violent as the abuser works to isolate the victim from other relationships and potential support systems. It may be a bit of a stretch (though not much, compared to considering an eyebrow waggle and a point to the lips as emotional blackmail and rape), but in a way Rumple seemed to be attempting to isolate Milah, since one of her complaints about the marriage was that him being the village coward and a pariah was keeping her isolated, and he refused to consider moving to a new place where she might be able to have friends. It kind of came across like he didn't want her to have anyone in her life but him and Bae.

 

I rewatched "Tallahassee" last night, and I would definitely say that Emma has had the power in the relationship with Hook, going back to the beginning. It's funny how many times in the early days of their acquaintance she tied or chained him up. There was tied to the tree to be left for the ogres, his wrists bound on the way to the beanstalk, left chained up on top of the beanstalk, handcuffed to a hospital bed and handcuffed to a radiator. I'm probably missing one, but I haven't rewatched those episodes yet. He spent much of the time he was with her at her mercy and vulnerable. Some of the innuendo he gave to Team Princess might come across as obnoxious or even suggestive of "rape culture" if it had been said to the woman sitting beside him on the subway, but I think it's very different in context when it's coming from a man who is badly outnumbered, surrounded by three armed warrior women (and one kind of useless one). He'd had all his weapons, including his prosthesis, taken and had his wrists bound. He was their prisoner, and they were talking about killing him. They had all the power, and he had none. I actually find it telling that in that circumstance when he was basically helpless with words as his only weapons that he didn't try to put them off their guard by denigrating them or tearing them down. He didn't call them bitches or sluts, didn't insult their appearance or otherwise degrade them, didn't threaten rape or violence. Instead, he indulged in flirtation and flattery as his way of attempting to gain any kind of power (or at least not let on how powerless he was).

 

And speaking of interesting juxtapositions, in "Tallahassee," I noticed that the scene in which Emma offers to get the stolen watches out of the train station locker for Neal is set against the scene in which Hook puts himself on the line to play bait for the giant. Then the scene in which Emma is arrested after Neal tipped off the cops and is put in handcuffs is set against the scene in which Emma handcuffs Hook to leave him at the top of the beanstalk. The tables were definitely turned for Emma, for better or worse.

[Kaw912]

I know there was the incident with Belle, but that was in context more about Rumple, and not really a long-term association.

I know a lot of people point to Hook's violence towards Belle during season two as an example of his character promoting "rape culture" and violence towards women. Yes, on the surface we see a man committing an act of violence towards a petite, defenseless woman (although she did manage to give him a good clink on the head on his ship). The thing is, I do not see the violence as being gender based. Hook knocking Belle out and attempting to kill her, and then shooting her and causing her to lose her memory, were not based on a desire by Hook to exercise power over her (which is what rape really is), in Hook's mind he was hurting the ally/girlfriend of his arch-enemy. The violence was not sexual in nature, it was no different for him than killing the guard outside Belle's cell. I do not view it as a gender-based crime. Regina's treatment of Graham, on the other hand, does warrant scrutiny as promoting rape-culture as she had a sexual relationship with Graham and sexual jealousy was clearly part of her motivation for killing him.

Likewise, since Rumple had had a sexual relationship with Milah at one time, that played a role in that act of violence, as well.

Hook committed violence against Belle, and I don't condone that and I think Hook was wrong for doing what he did, but I do not consider it an act of sexual violence simply because he's male and she's female. I put it on the same level as Regina trying to kill Snow multiple times. Shitty, yes, but not rape.

Shanna Marie - I think your post has given me an excuse to rewatch "Tallahassee" again. Thank you :-)

Edited July 9, 2014 by Kaw912

[Mari]

. Instead, he indulged in flirtation and flattery as his way of attempting to gain any kind of power (or at least not let on how powerless he was).

I've noticed this to an extent, too.  It seems like the Hook scenes are often flipped a little, when it comes to the usual gender expectations.  He usually seems to have less power than the women he's paired with--romantically, and otherwise--and often seems to have the "flirt/seduce to distract and get my way". 

 

I don't have season 2, so I can't rewatch to double check, but wasn't there even a couple of scenes that hinted Cora had bedroom plans for him?

 

 

 

The violence was not sexual in nature, it was no different for him than killing the guard outside Belle's cell. I do not view it as a gender-based crime. Regina's treatment of Graham, of the other hand, does

warrant scrutiny as promoting rape-culture as

 

I think part of the trap that we can sometimes fall into when the rape culture debate happens, is actually sexism--infantilizing women and assuming the worst motives about men.

 

You're right--what happened with Graham was rape.  What disturbs me more, is the reaction the show had when it was called on that.  Just because Regina is a beautiful woman, doesn't mean it's consensual.  Men get raped, too.  And considering that she literally controlled his emotions and movements, and had him hauled off to her bedroom before beginning a sexual relationship?  What other authentic reading of that scene is there? 

 

What in the world would make people think that was a consensual relationship, if it's not the thought process "Graham is a man, Regina is beautiful.  His desire for sex is so strong it overwhelms his fear of her and disgust of her behavior."?

[Camera One]

He didn't call them bitches or sluts, didn't insult their appearance or otherwise degrade them, didn't threaten rape or violence. Instead, he indulged in flirtation and flattery as his way of attempting to gain any kind of power (or at least not let on how powerless he was).

 

He was acting like it was turning him on.  I don't particularly believe this, but it could be argued that he was used to sweet-talking women to his bed that he was confident he could change their mind since he was so irresistible.   At that point in the story, he was playing the good guys and his mass-murderer accomplice off one another to gauge how to best further his ultimate goal of revenge, so I can't get myself to subscribe to the revisionist interpretation.  He has changed a lot in Season 3, but there wasn't much to admire in Season 2.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Camera One

[InsertWordHere]

 

I think part of the trap that we can sometimes fall into when the rape culture debate happens, is actually sexism--infantilizing women and assuming the worst motives about men.

Very well said. I've noticed that people especially seem to fall into this trap when discussing the characters of Milah and Emma. We've seen what Emma does when she feels threatened by men, she hit Jefferson over the head with a telescope, she was ready to go at it with Gold when he threatened to beat her with his cane, she fought Walsh off with a metal bar. We've seen what she does when men kiss her against her will, she pushed Graham away and kneed Hook in the privates. She staged a meeting with Hook and had the police waiting to arrest him. In the end, she forgave both men for these acts, because even though their reasons for their actions made no sense to her, she didn't assume the worst of them. We've even seen what she does when someone tries to emotionally manipulate her, as Gold did during the sheriff campaign. She still came out and told the truth. She did not let herself be bullied by the biggest bully on this show. Nothing about her character indicates that she would allow someone liberties on her person without her consent. Hook and Mary Margaret are the two characters that have let themselves be emotionally manipulated by villains. Mary Margaret's entire relationship with Regina is based on emotional blackmail. Zelena easily guilt-tripped Hook into his confession, she barely had to lay on the faux-Ariel tears before he was singing like a canary. The only times Emma has been emotionally manipulated into something is when Regina told her to leave for Henry's sake and when Gold threatened her family (and Hook) if she didn't go to New York with him (actual blackmail).

 

Hook is held accountable for Milah's actions when Milah left Rumple of her own free will. She is treated as Rumple's possession and yet it's Hook that supposedly objectifies women. And her murderer still goes unpunished and her murder has never been acknowledged by any character except Hook. Milah's son either didn't care about the truth or remained willfully ignorant and in the end forgave his father. Her murderer's current wife brushed it off and dismissed it as lies.

[Shanna Marie]

It seems like the Hook scenes are often flipped a little, when it comes to the usual gender expectations.  He usually seems to have less power than the women he's paired with--romantically, and otherwise--and often seems to have the "flirt/seduce to distract and get my way".

There's a difference between relationship power differentials and other power imbalances. With Regina and Cora, it had nothing to do with a "relationship." In both cases, they were using each other to achieve a goal. He didn't like or respect them or want any association with them other than finding a way to kill Rumple. The women had the upper hand because of immense magical power and political power, as Regina was a queen in the Enchanted Forest and Cora was a queen in Wonderland. As I recall, there were also threats to his life from Cora. He was cooperating because it suited his needs at the time, but he switched sides when he encountered someone who either had more power over him or posed a bigger immediate threat or, in the case of Team Princess, seemed to offer the best chance of success without the risk of getting his heart ripped out and having to associate with the psycho Mills women.

 

When it comes to relationships, there's a power dynamic in that the person who cares the most about the relationship and is most invested or most in love has the least power. In that sense, Emma very definitely had the upper hand over Hook. She was at least acting like she didn't care, and even though I think she did care, she was afraid of caring and might have seen it as a relief if he'd walked away because then she wouldn't have had to deal with her feelings. But he was deeply invested and had given up everything for her. He holds his own pretty well, but at this point, I think they're still at the stage where if she said jump, he'd ask how high. We know what he'll do for her but we don't yet know what she'd do for him. She could very easily break his heart and break him. I doubt he yet has that power over her. In an evenly balanced relationship, both parties have that power, and that's part of being in love, that vulnerability and trust that are required when you give someone else that kind of power over you.

 

It's hard to say with Milah, since we saw about two minutes, at the most, of their relationship, but the sense I got was that they were fairly equal, both in power and in affection. She was able to bark orders to the crew of his ship, and they responded without question, so she seemed to have some authority on the crew (acting as first mate, perhaps?) and she put her life on the line for him, so it seems she loved him as much as he loved her. It's hard to read ages in flashbacks, but based on what else we know about the timeline, he would have likely been very young when they met, probably younger than she was unless she was a teenage mother, since she had a 6-8 year old kid at the time and he couldn't have been much older than his early 20s then in order to look like he's in his early 30s now (I figure that the present-day characters are probably meant to be in the ballpark of the actors' ages and we're just supposed to pretend they're younger in the flashbacks). At the same time, his ship was her escape route, so she needed him. I think it was a good balance. She wasn't at all subservient to him, but he didn't seem at all henpecked. We've seen that he's drawn to strong women. I don't think he'd have any respect for a doormat or a woman he could dominate.

 

At that point in the story, he was playing the good guys and his mass-murderer accomplice off one another to gauge how to best further his ultimate goal of revenge, so I can't get myself to subscribe to the revisionist interpretation.  He has changed a lot in Season 3, but there wasn't much to admire in Season 2.

I don't think it's revisionist to point out something that's on the screen. It's a fact that when he was held prisoner and tied or chained up, he didn't insult or denigrate his captors. For comparison's sake, look at Jaime Lannister on Game of Thrones when he was Brienne's prisoner. The nicest thing he called her was "wench." Otherwise, he used a lot of only on HBO language and talked about her being raped. I don't expect that kind of language or behavior on an ABC early-evening Sunday series owned by Disney, but it's a tricky situation -- a character who's being held captive who doesn't fight back in any way looks like a doormat, but since his captors were the good guys and they planned to turn him into a good guy and potential romantic lead, he couldn't get too nasty with them. Flirting and mild innuendo make a nice compromise so that he's holding his own with them and trying to keep them off-balance but not being too big a jerk.