Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[retrograde]

Yeah, I was fine with the Emma/Hook relationship, but not if it comes at the expense of his personality. I get why he was maybe a bit cautious about pushing his luck with her in 4A, but they and she seem pretty solid now. Bring back the swagger!

[Shanna Marie]

The problem with Hook and Emma right now is that the writers seem to think that kisses and cuddles are all it takes to make a relationship. They must have been serious about thinking that they'd given us emotional payoff with that one kiss in the mid-season finale. If you'd never seen this show before and tuned in to this latest episode, you'd probably think that there was a triangle brewing because while Emma was obviously Hook's girlfriend, all the emotional depth happened with Belle. That was where we got the emotional payoff to all the trauma he went through in the last arc. Belle actually listened to and acknowledged his feelings instead of brushing them aside (the way Emma kind of did, though she was trying to be encouraging). In fact, if Joss Whedon were writing this series, this would definitely be a setup for busting apart the couple you thought would be end game and throwing the former enemies together in a relationship that might be a bit twisted at first but that would end up becoming something real. On this show, the fact that Emma and Hook are kissing means they're totally together and there's no need to actually write anything for them. Why are you people complaining that they aren't really talking and all of Emma's scenes are with Regina? Look how many times Emma and Hook kissed, and he kept putting his arm around her!

[Rumsy4]

I am starting to think (hope) that Rumbelle are never ever getting back together. I know, I know.. it's This Show, and Belle and Rumple are supposed to be a True Love couple. But doesn't the warranty run out after one of the parties consistently lies to and manipulates the other? Belle moving on with Will is a do-over of Milah and Hook. Will had better watch out, but I suspect Rumple won't want to murder Belle (hey--maybe Belle will finally be able to empathize with Milah). The writers like to repeat situations and have the same characters react differently. And this is a chance to show how much Rumple loves Belle, because he stays his hand from revenge murder this time. :-p I do think Rumpel might be "redeemed" by the end of the series in yet another sacrificial death (but no takesies backsies this time).

 

Btw, where are the outcries that Rumple was stalking Belle? People were quick to incriminate Hook in 3B. Is it supposed to be okay because Belle is his wife? 

[YaddaYadda]

I loved Cruella and Ursula fucking with Rumple and telling him that Belle didn't ask about him and that she probably moved on.  

 

I hope Rumple and Belle don't get back together at least not this season.  That would make it too easy, it would make Belle a sucker for punishment.  I don't care if they're true love and true love on this show is just so fucking annoying.

[jhlipton]

Btw, where are the outcries that Rumple was stalking Belle? People were quick to incriminate Hook in 3B. Is it supposed to be okay because Belle is his wife? 

 

I didn't get the impression Rumple was stalking Belle -- he was outside whichever building she was in (the library, I think) and happened to see her.  

[coppersin]

He was outside his shop, she was inside rearranging things in one of the displays. Dunno whether he was at the shop because he needed to grab something or he just wanted to see her, but compared to some of the crap he's done in the past, one incident of watching her from afar doesn't seem so bad.

 

As for Rumple's redemption, I'm honestly not sure. It could be interesting to watch a season of that, and it would be a chance to fix some of the mistakes the writers made with Regina. And as a bonus, I doubt Rumple would ever be good so much as morally grey (my favorite color!). However, I think the writers rely too much on his weaknesses to allow that kind of growth, and I think I read once that Carlyle didn't have an interest in playing a redeemed Rumple, so if it happens, it'll probably be a few episodes before the series ends.

 

But if he's redeemed? Yes, probably because Belle dies. He's already lost Neal, so it would have to be something pretty extreme. If she's gone and he's the reason why, the guilt may finally push him in the right direction. Or he'll completely lose it and become the ultimate Big Bad.

 

I have wondered about all the baby stuff this season. Snow keeping Snowflake away from Emma. The mystery history with Mal's fetus. The talk in Unforgiven about babies and the potential for great good or great evil. A lot of that could apply to a Rumbelle baby. If the writers were willing to go really dark, they could make Belle pregnant right now. She could be faking a relationship with Will so no one will know who the real father is. Rumple's retaliation could threaten the child. Or he loses control of the Queens of Darkness and they hurt Belle to hurt him. That kind of guilt could shock him enough to re-evaluate his life, while still having Belle to steer him toward good instead of evil. 

 

 

I hope Rumple and Belle don't get back together at least not this season.  That would make it too easy, it would make Belle a sucker for punishment.  I don't care if they're true love and true love on this show is just so fucking annoying.

 

You know what would be interesting? If they move past what happened, but don't reconnect romantically immediately. In my mind, true love isn't just sweeping declarations of love, it's getting every inch of a person and accepting it all. IMO that's why Snowing work so well as a couple while some other pairings aren't as interesting, because they seem genuinely invested in each other as people. So let Belle and Rumple develop a friendship. We'd have more of a chance to see why they work as a True Love couple, as well as the delightful awkwardness of Rumple being around her, reminded that he had a lovely woman who wanted only him, and he royally screwed it up.

Edited March 9, 2015 by coppersin

[Delphi]

Eta: wrong thread

Edited March 9, 2015 by Delphi

[RadioGirl27]

I was pleased relationship wise with the talk that Emma had with Hook. While I wish he would just tell her, she reacted better than I thought. She was upset at first, calmer, and then more than understanding. It was nice to see them have a conversation at the station instead of a make out session. I still wish they'd give him some non-brooding lines. If they don't want to go all Captain Innuendo, I'm fine with that. I'd even take some more Hook vs. technology. The hand holding is cute, but where are they walking to and from? We just get random moments with them on the streets.

Yeah, I'm glad that they finally had a scene like this. And it was so well acted, you can see Emma's wall falling. Both Jennifer and Colin did a great job there. I personally don't have a problem with Hook not telling Emma what he did to Ursulla. He is clearly ashamed of what he did and regrets it. He probably thinks that, the same way that he hates himself for it, Emma is going to hate him when she knows, so I get why he is scared of telling her. He has been alone for so long that he doesn't know how to be in a relationship. He just has to learn.

Henry's relationships with his mothers are strange. Emma was more motherly toward Pinocchio than Henry, which was odd given that there was a vibe they might turn her and August into a couple for a while there. Meanwhile Regina seems to be in some fantasy world with Henry. She wants it to be back to when it was her, Robin, Roland, and Henry? Which five minutes did that happen in on the show? Henry didn't have his memories when she and Robin got together? He was sitting with Snowing at the diner when Emma and Hook got back from time traveling. They brought Marian back with them so that ended the Robin/Regina thing for a while. When exactly were they a happy little family?

Henry and Regina's relationship is just creepy and unhealthy, and it's reaching Norman Bates levels of ickiness. A child should never be so involved in her mother's life.

[Mari]

Henry's relationships with his mothers are strange. Emma was more motherly toward Pinocchio than Henry, which was odd given that there was a vibe they might turn her and August into a couple for a while there. Meanwhile Regina seems to be in some fantasy world with Henry. She wants it to be back to when it was her, Robin, Roland, and Henry? Which five minutes did that happen in on the show? Henry didn't have his memories when she and Robin got together? He was sitting with Snowing at the diner when Emma and Hook got back from time traveling. They brought Marian back with them so that ended the Robin/Regina thing for a while. When exactly were they a happy little family? 

Emma being more "motherly" towards Augnocchio could stem from him being much younger than Henry, and Augnocchio having just had that ugly scene with Regina--she was trying to reassure him.  At least, that's my take.

 

When was she with Robin and Roland and happy?  Well, there was that ice cream scene during the Rumple/Belle wedding.  Of course, Henry was no where in sight. . . .  Maybe it's just confirmation that about 75% of what Regina thinks happened is just delusions she lives through in her head.  It would explain her blaming Snow and Emma for so very much, and her sudden turnarounds in regards to Cora.

 

 

 

I am starting to think (hope) that Rumbelle are never ever getting back together. I know, I know.. it's This Show, and Belle and Rumple are supposed to be a True Love couple. But doesn't the warranty run out after one of the parties consistently lies to and manipulates the other? Belle moving on with Will is a do-over of Milah and Hook. . . .

 

Btw, where are the outcries that Rumple was stalking Belle? People were quick to incriminate Hook in 3B. Is it supposed to be okay because Belle is his wife? 

I'm not so sure about that.  Belle has made comments about missing him, and gotten teary in that scene with Hook--and she hasn't seen Rumple, yet.  That might make a difference.  Before, all she had to do was see him and have him offer her something, and she went for it, usually.  Maybe if they have contact 3-4 episodes in a row and she doesn't budge, I'll believe it. 

 

Plus, there's the interviews that A&E have given that make me think they're just trying to draw it out a little; they've made comments about how forgiving Belle is, and, well, TS, TW

 

Why is Rumple/Belle not being called stalkery?  Probably a couple of things.  People are still looking at Rumple as being in a position of weakness.  It's foolish and shortsighted, but people don't take someone who's not physically imposing as seriously, usually.  Also, he's not causing relationship problems for people who are sure that Regina and Emma belong together.  If he were making serious inroads on a romantic relationship with Emma, the obligatory "Stalker!1!1!!1!"  might start to be more regular.

 

Personally, I find the Rumple/Belle relationship incredibly gross and creepy, but I won't start claiming Rumple's stalking Belle unless the lurking and staring start to be a regular thing.  I'll give him one nostalgic, wistful peek, even if he is a creepy control freak.

 

ETA:

Henry and Regina's relationship is just creepy and unhealthy, and it's reaching Norman Bates levels of ickiness. A child should never be so involved in her mother's life.

Thank you for the comparison.    I know it's from a different movie, but now I have Henry stuck in my head telling Regina to put the lotion on. 

Edited March 9, 2015 by Mari

[Rumsy4]

Henry and Regina's relationship is just creepy and unhealthy, and it's reaching Norman Bates levels of ickiness. A child should never be so involved in her mother's life.

 

 

Henry's relationships with his mothers are strange. Emma was more motherly toward Pinocchio than Henry..

 

Agreed on both counts. The Regina/Henry dynamic started getting creepy when he made a break-up basket for Regina. Until then he was just being a little too deluded about her "goodness". Now, he is spending all of his time making sure his mom gets to have romance in her life. I hold Emma culpable as well. Why is she not making sure that Henry is spending some time doing his homework, or making friends his age? He apparently had a normal life in New York. Emma seems to have no say in his life after they returned to Storybrooke. Henry stays with Regina, obsesses over Regina's Happy Ending, and does potentially dangerous things like work in Mr. Gold's shop (did Emma even know about that?). 

 

 

I'll give him one nostalgic, wistful peek, even if he is a creepy control freak.

 

Yeah. Rumple is great at pulling the self-pitying wistful look. I wonder if he will lose his head and reveal his presence in his fury over the Belle/Will kiss.

[buildmeupbuttercup]

Emma seems to have no say in his life after they returned to Storybrooke. Henry stays with Regina, obsesses over Regina's Happy Ending, and does potentially dangerous things like work in Mr. Gold's shop (did Emma even know about that?). 

Yep. In all their interviews before 4B the writers talked about Emma and Regina being friends because of co-parenting Henry but so far I'm not seeing much "co" happening. I'm not complaining--I hate podHenry that sings Regina's praises 24/7 and only seems to remember his other "mom" when she's freezing to death, has outta control magic, or when reuniting after the oh so dangerous Shattered Sight Curse--but the lack of Emma involvement in his life is starting to be distracting. Does she care that instead of having any social life or exhibiting any normal teenage behavior he's spending his evenings alone in the mayor's office trying to find a way to get his other mom her boyfriend back? It's weird and sick. I'll be interested (well not really because it's Henry) to see if Emma gets a more active role in parenting when Regina takes on her new "undercover" gig next Sunday.

[Worsel]

I believe Rumple deliberately went to his shop to just to see Belle from afar.  He misses her and still loves her (although not as much as magic and power, to which is he obviously addicted.)  I don't think he would harm Will for becoming involved with Belle as long as Belle was happy, but obviously it breaks his heart to see her with someone else.  He was previously willing to end their relationship at least twice because he knows he is a "monster" and that he will never change.  He recognized the futility of trying to maintain their relationship in the face of his fear/weakness/addiction and tried to end the relationship at least twice, although he was unable to bring himself to stay away from Belle permanently.  Belle insisted on staying with him and trying to make the relationship work until she banished him.  I don't believe that she are Will are seriously involved, most likely they are just taking comfort in each other while their true loves are MIA.  

 

For their happy ending: I would like to see an attempt at reconciliation between Belle and Rumple, but a slow progression built upon real change in how they relate to each other.  I'd like to see Rumple trying (while failing repeatedly but hopefully ultimately succeeding only at the very end of the show) to overcome his fear/addiction to power, and Belle being realistic enough to support him without constantly telling him that there is a totally different man under the monster.  I see Rumple as a man with failings who happens to be cursed with power.  Like Lord Acton said, "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." Without power, Rumple would still have a fearful, angry and vindictive personality, but without the ability to carry out his desire to hurt others.  Belle needs to understand that breaking the curse will not change his personality.  Rumple has to get to the point where he accepts that he cannot "have it all" and makes a definitive permanent choice between Belle and power.  I believe the show preaches that it is a person's actions and behavior that make them a villain.  But it is the personality that makes them more or less susceptible to committing bad acts.   I think their relationship is doomed to fail unless they both work hard to compromise on their expectations.  And, realistically it should be an ongoing struggle - not a happy ending so much as a hopeful beginning of a rough journey.

[KAOS Agent]

 

I was pleased relationship wise with the talk that Emma had with Hook. While I wish he would just tell her, she reacted better than I thought. She was upset at first, calmer, and then more than understanding. It was nice to see them have a conversation at the station instead of a make out session.

 

What I liked was that two adults used words in a calm, clear manner to explain their point of view. This almost never happens on any show, so yay for rational discussion between characters. One of the things this show gets stuck on is absolute truthfulness but what they never want to deal with is that too much honesty can be as harmful as the lack of it. I think both Emma & Hook understand this which is why Hook doesn't want to share and Emma doesn't want to push. As long as it's not about his cursed ear and how it's going to destroy the world or whatever, I don't think it's wrong to let him tell her on his own time. She's not comfortable sharing everything either.

 

I did find it really stupid that Snowing listened to that entire conversation where Emma is laying out to Hook that what happened in the past doesn't matter, it's the lying that's the problem. What part of Emma saying she's always been burned in the past by people lying to her and that it's way more upsetting to her than their past evil deeds caused them to think she meant the opposite? Continuing to steal her agency and lying about it is not going to end well. They do get that these are her hot button issues right? Snow does remember telling Emma that she of all people should know that lying to someone about their heritage is wrong. Did she miss the massive rift in the Emma/Henry relationship after the whole Neal affair? 

[Shanna Marie]

I don't think he would harm Will for becoming involved with Belle as long as Belle was happy

This is the man who murdered his previous wife for becoming involved with another man and being happy with him, and then he maimed the other man. Rumple might hold off on hurting Belle because he still wants to win her back, but Will might be in for a world of hurt. And Belle's in trouble if she ever tells him she doesn't love him anymore and will never take him back.

[Camera One]

I did find it really stupid that Snowing listened to that entire conversation where Emma is laying out to Hook that what happened in the past doesn't matter, it's the lying that's the problem. What part of Emma saying she's always been burned in the past by people lying to her and that it's way more upsetting to her than their past evil deeds caused them to think she meant the opposite? Continuing to steal her agency and lying about it is not going to end well. They do get that these are her hot button issues right? Snow does remember telling Emma that she of all people should know that lying to someone about their heritage is wrong. Did she miss the massive rift in the Emma/Henry relationship after the whole Neal affair?

 

Incredibly stupid.  I don't understand how the writers would think watching stupid people do stupid things makes for enjoyable television.  Snow and Charming can't lie, and Emma should have been able to see through that.  It's a disservice to all of their characters to put them in such a contrived situation.  I can imagine Ginny and Josh would find it hard to act this dumb inconsistent response... first, they lie to Emma, but they lie really badly.  And later, they question whether they should have done what they did.  And then later, they regret having lied since now Maleficent is back.  And then, they lie to Emma for a second time, except do they lie better this time, or not, because it has to be just convincing enough for Emma to believe.  

 

Clearly, the writers don't know how to write emotional conflicts in terms of relationships between the "good guys" except for having them lie and keep secrets.  3A, Charming keeps secret about him dying.  3B, Hook keeps secret that he's being blackmailed.  4A, Hook keeps secret that he's being blackmailed.  4B, Snow and Charming keeps secret from Emma.  

Edited March 10, 2015 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

 

Clearly, the writers don't know how to write emotional conflicts in terms of relationships between the "good guys" except for having them lie and keep secrets.  3A, Charming keeps secret about him dying.  3B, Hook keeps secret that he's being blackmailed.  4A, Hook keeps secret that he's being blackmailed.  4B, Snow and Charming keeps secret from Emma.

 

So much word. And it's not just the good guys. Emma lied to Henry about his father. Rumple kept lying to Belle ever since he proposed, and all through 4A. Cora lied to Leopold. I'm sure there are moere examples.

[KAOS Agent]

I liked how Emma's lie to Henry caused an emotional conflict. Mostly because it felt real. It also wasn't pulled out of thin air. It fit the story in Season 1 and remained there until halfway through the next season. There was a believable response to it too. Emma admitted that she was trying to protect herself and forget that part of her life, Henry felt betrayed by a woman he'd put on a pedestal. It's funny that that was the only lie with real fall out. Of course, it was used to drive a wedge between Emma/Henry, but I liked that Henry was allowed to be angry at Emma. And it required work for her to repair the relationship. Henry was still a brat about it, but it was real parent/child conflict. On the flip side, you'll notice that none of that was required to fix the relationship between Henry/Regina.

[KingOfHearts]

 

On the flip side, you'll notice that none of that was required to fix the relationship between Henry/Regina.

There was no fallout between to Snow and Charming either, except a brief silent treatment. No consequences whatsoever.

[YaddaYadda]

We all always said this show lacked conversation.  That's what the writers keep taking away for the sake of plot point, which really sucks.  And that's what frustrated me to no end at the end of 411, that they took that away to focus on Operation Seriously?

 

So this guy whom Emma has grown attached to, may even be in love with almost dies after she voiced her concerns about being worried that she might lose him and there is no talk whatsoever about what happened that led to him standing in the clock tower with his heart in the hands of the person who hates him most in the world.

 

Well played show!  

 

I wonder if  there will be a conversation between Emma and her parents when the chips fall.  This is not something they can sweep under the rug and pretend it never happened.  At this point, I'm choosing to believe that the reason nothing came out of the Echo Cave, of Snow wanting to stay behind with David, of the snarky remark about Emma not remembering them and that's the reason she was happy in New York and everything that went down with Ingrid up to the point where Emma wanted to get rid of her magic is because something bigger was going to happen.

 

So, can Emma unleash some of that?  She is good at being passive-aggressive, but I need her to just go for it at this point and force her parents to do the uncomfortable thing which is not talk to each other or at her, but talk to her.  Whatever she chooses to do afterwards is up to her.

[Dani-Ellie]

At this point, I'm choosing to believe that the reason nothing came out of the Echo Cave, of Snow wanting to stay behind with David, of the snarky remark about Emma not remembering them and that's the reason she was happy in New York and everything that went down with Ingrid up to the point where Emma wanted to get rid of her magic is because something bigger was going to happen.

 

I would forgive this show a lot if this is the case. *crosses fingers*

[Emma]

What I'd give to see Emma unload full blast on her parents. Especially Snow.

But we'll get a hug instead.

[FurryFury]

Well, I, for one, have found Rumple's stalking of Belle incredibly creepy and disturbing. I don't care that he looks old and frail - he's anything but, he's probably the strongest mage in all of Storybrooke, and one not afraid of unleashing his power to the max. And also, his jealous look made me recall his relationship with Milah and how he killed her at the end - so we know his first reaction if a woman dares to leave him. I don't want these two to reconnect in any sense, friendship or romantic - he's made it clear time and again that he loves power above all else. Hey, Cora really was his soulmate, it seems. I don't want the "True love overcomes all odds" concept to be applied in this case, because it absolves him of his awful behavior towards her. Maybe he had deserved redemption once. Right now, it would be too much. He hasn't just crossed moral event horizon, he's stamped all over it. Kill him, depower him - I don't care. Just don't make Belle forgive him. Don't make her even more of a doormat she already is.

[jhlipton]

As regards the "Endgame for RumppBelle" poll:  There's what I want to happen and what I think will happen.

 

I would like for Belle to be wonderfully and happily single,   If she does hook up, it will be with someone who doesn't have a current wife or girlfriend.  Rumple lives and stews impotently (in all senses of the word) at what he lost.

[Shanna Marie]

I had to vote "who knows" because this show defies all logic and common sense. She should either remain single or move on to someone else (though preferably not someone else who's married to a verified True Love who had a good redemption arc) because catching your husband in the process of murdering a man after learning that his engagement gift to you was actually a fake, that he would never love you more than he loved power, and he was lying to you throughout your entire marriage should really be a permanent dealbreaker. If she does get back with him, he would have to have been 100 percent, for real this time, redeemed, with much sincere groveling, and probably stripped of all power to be an ordinary man again. I have no illusions of that happening on this show. At the same time, this show has a terrible track record of maintaining or quickly reverting to the status quo and these writers are horribly allergic to consequences, so I can't see them keeping Belle and Rumple apart permanently.

Edited March 15, 2015 by Shanna Marie

[OnceUponAJen]

Nevermind!

Edited March 15, 2015 by OnceUponAJen

[Camera One]

I think the very last episode of the series will be a tear-jerker where Rumple will sacrifice himself, and we will see a scene of him and Young Bae happy in their hovel reunited in the afterlife (though with the actor growing up, it might just be a flashback from an earlier season).  

 

I do predict that Belle will forgive Rumple before then, and they will have a few happy episodes together until he realizes he must make The Ultimate Sacrifice. 

[Rumsy4]

Of course, it's this show, but for the first time ever, I'm starting to think that Rumple won't be endgame. I do agree that Belle will end up forgiving Rumple at the end. But him dying a sacrificial death is just a retread of what happened at the end of 3A. It would be fitting if Rumpe lost all his magic, and had to endure seeing Belle happy with someone else. But I still wouldn't trust him. With or without magic, he's still capable of inflicting maximum damage. 

Edited March 15, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Mari]

When we did the earlier poll during the hiatus, people seemed much more convinced that Belle and Rumple's separation was pretty short lived.  What about these new episodes seems to have shifted that idea a little?

[YaddaYadda]

I didn't vote because I could give a flip about RB.  That relationship is toxic and Belle deserves a lot better than that, a lot more than that and I don't even care all that much about the character.  But I'm not kidding myself.  I think what changed is that Will Scarlett has entered the picture now and while it may not be a long lived relationship because of Rumple and what's her face (Anastasia?), I don't think Belle will be so easily swayed.

 

Hopefully she won't.

[Camera One]

When we did the earlier poll during the hiatus, people seemed much more convinced that Belle and Rumple's separation was pretty short lived.  What about these new episodes seems to have shifted that idea a little?

 

For me, I think it's because they had Rumple intentionally manipulate Belle right off the bat (using her for the fake spell), and they haven't shown Rumple with any change in attitude, plus Belle has now apparently moved on.  So it's like "Surely, they can't resolve all that and get back together in eight episodes?  But of course, we forget they can resolve anything in half an episode, no matter how deep the underlying issue is.

[Rumsy4]

When we did the earlier poll during the hiatus, people seemed much more convinced that Belle and Rumple's separation was pretty short lived.  What about these new episodes seems to have shifted that idea a little?

 

I think this is the longest Belle has gone without forgiving Rumple after a fight, right? Besides, as other have said, Belle seems less of a doormat now, and Rumple is still manipulating her. The fact that she is already dating someone may not be wise, but at least it shows that she's not sitting around waiting for Rumple to reform/show up. 

[Curio]

I don't think this was the intention of the latest episode, but Regina had way more chemistry with Maleficent than she's ever had with Robin. You could even make an argument that Belle had way more chemistry with Hook than Rumple, even though it was technically Rumple in a glamour spell.

[tennisgurl]

I certainly LIKE Belle a lot more hanging out with Hook than I did when she was with Rumple all the time. I ship them as friends, but not in a love way. I love Hook/Emma too much for that. 

 

Belle/Will? I don't get it... Is this before he got with Anastasia again? Timeline wise? Its the only explanation I will accept for him not being in Wonderland with her right now.

 

Speaking of CaptainSwan...

 

How is it that Emma was running around in a blind panic when she found out that Regina might possibly be in danger, but when Hook, her boyfriend, was being controlled by his arch enemy, and had his freaking HEART ripped out, and almost died, she didn't notice there was anything wrong with him, and she hardly seemed upset that he was in danger.

 

What is even the hell, writers?  

Edited March 16, 2015 by tennisgurl

[Curio]

How is it that Emma was running around in a blind panic when she found out that Regina might possibly be in danger, but when Hook, her boyfriend, was being controlled by his arch enemy, and had his freaking HEART ripped out, and almost died, she didn't notice there was anything wrong with him, and she hardly seemed upset that he was in danger.

 

I think it simply comes down to character favoritism in the writers room. This show will always give more prominence to Regina, Rumple, and Emma over the other characters, even though the other characters sometimes have more interesting story lines going on. Long gone are the days of 3A where the core characters had somewhat equal screen time. Hook just isn't a top priority for the writers, so they're not as interested in showing how Emma might realistically react to him being in a life threatening situation. But they care a ton about Regina, so they'll show every beat of every second of Emma freaking out, even though it was wildly out of character for Emma to be that freaked out.

 

Logically, yes - you'd think the show would have shown Emma being as upset about Hook's heart situation (which was a plot that was built up over multiple episodes, so the audience expects a significant resolution) as she was over Regina not calling them for one hour. We should have been shown an equally frantic Emma running around town trying to find Hook after Anna's reveal about Rumple, but we didn't. And it unfortunately makes me think Hook/Emma have officially fallen into Snow/David territory where the writers have gotten bored with them and don't care about their emotional payoff because they're finally "together."

Edited March 16, 2015 by Curio

[FurryFury]

I'd argue that, considering that by now, these writers' idea of a great love story is Outlaw Queen, Hook and Emma (and Snow and David) are probably better off romancing each other in Offscreenville.

Edited March 16, 2015 by FurryFury

[YaddaYadda]

We should have been shown an equally frantic Emma running around town trying to find Hook after Anna's reveal about Rumple, but we didn't.

 

See this?  Again, we don't know what Emma knew.  Anna's knowledge of the hat and what it did did not extend further than the liar who lies and impersonates people wants to cut himself loose of the dagger.  As far as we know, only three people knew about the heart business.  Rumple, Ingrid and Hook who could not say anything. Emma knew there was something wrong, she asked him but he didn't have his heart so he could not tell her anything.

 

Instead of them having Ingrid be, oh btw, your boyfriend, dead man walking and all, they decided to have Anna be like oh that man he lies which made everyone look like utter morons.  Of course Rumple lies, if it doesn't benefit him, he doesn't do it.  But he's been helping your boyfriend whom he considers an enemy and hates and they have this sort of uneasy truce.

 

We have no clue what Emma knew and didn't know, but I'll wager she had no effin' clue whatsoever that Hook was in mortal danger.

[buildmeupbuttercup]

In two of three episodes in 4B, Rumple has (unbeknownst to her) manipulated Belle and fucked her over for his own selfish reasons. Sad part is that isn’t even what makes me find Rumbelle so repulsive right now. Let’s review people vs. possessions with Rumple one more time. Milah and Belle are both people who left you (or banished you) of their own free will, meaning Hook and Will didn’t “steal” or “take” them from you. No stealing or taking someone happens when you do so against their own free will—like the child you kidnapped and turned back into an adult against his free will. Possessions can be stolen or taken, but you know this because it’s exactly what you just did with Belle and the dagger.

 

I love that some in the fandumb like to go on and on about Hook’s “stalker” and “triggering” behavior and then we have Rumple last night. Belle says she’s afraid of Rumple and the dagger is her only protection and means of feeling safe. So naturally Rumple takes that safety, then proceeds with the uber creepy, 2nd base pirate oathing (she really thinks pirate oaths involve that much boob grabbing?) and over chattiness about her new relationship and whether she’s over Rump or not. That seems like the definition of stalker with Belle and her new relationship. She even says Will makes her smile but I guarantee Rump will be trying to get back what was “taken” from him in the next couple episodes.

 

There’s about 5849036721 different kinds of wrong in their relationship. You know whose relationship actually seems healthier than Rumbelle in comparison? OQ and I hate that ship. OQ whose relationship spans the lifetime of a gnat, with crypt sex over the not dead wife’s frozen body is not as abusive and gross as Rumbelle in season 4. That's how bad this is! OQ>Rumbelle on the morality scale!

 

For the first time ever I am actually starting to think that Rumbelle won’t be endgame at the end of the series because seriously how can they? Because what played out all over my screen in their scenes was "we are never, ever getting back together". This show whitewashes a lot of shit, A LOT OF SHIT but how would they even write their way out of this one? I guess TS, TW but still it's a stretch even for them.

 

I’ve never had a strong opinion about Rumbelle until this season. Going back to the days of Skin Deep I never really bought into Rumple and Belle becoming the show’s Beauty and the Beast, but they were always just kind of “there” to me; I didn’t love them, didn’t hate them. With the lying, manipulation, agency removal (“hmm can’t have Belle finding out my plans, I’ll just wake her once I’ve taken her to a completely new life in a completely new world against her will because she loves adventure”), possessive attitude (that rings eerily similar to before he crushed his first wife’s heart to dust when she told him she didn’t love him) that has occurred in these 14 episodes alone I don’t think there’s a single thing Rumple could ever do to make me buy his “redemption” bullshit or feel anything but repulsed if he and Belle were to ever even consider reconciling. On a show where skewed morality is becoming the norm, that could take the cake.

[Shanna Marie]

Rumbelle - I don't know that even these writers (inept and clueless as they are) can find a plausible way to fix the mess of stalker Rumple. So he's passed himself off as a professor to help Belle unhat the fairies and an evil beast (added bonus), putting the town and specifically Emma at risk. Then he masquerades himself as Hook to further deceive the woman he loves. Will Belle ever find out? With this show, who knows. But in my mind there is no way it can ever be healthy and good. No amount apologizing or backpedaling can get it to a good relationship. Belle deserves better.

Yeah, I'm having to keep my poll vote at "who knows?" because it's this show, but they really have crossed the point of no return here. I already thought that catching her husband in the process of murdering a man after learning he'd been lying to her about her controlling his power should have been a dealbreaker (though I also have the crazy idea that learning that her boyfriend murdered his previous wife and watching him nearly beat a man to death should also have been a relationship dealbreaker). But him deceiving her into doing the spell, then deceiving her into handing over the dagger, with bonus creepy points of using the deception to quiz her about her new relationship is really too far. In real-world terms, that would be like hacking her friend's e-mail to pose as her friend and ask her questions about her new relationship. But on this show, there's a good chance she'll never find out, and they seem to have this idea that it doesn't count if you don't know (even though I think it's even worse, because that means there's an additional deception). After all, it's okay that Regina murdered Graham because Emma doesn't know what really happened.

[HoodlumSheep]

I certainly LIKE Belle a lot more hanging out with Hook than I did when she was with Rumple all the time. I ship them as friends, but not in a love way. I love Hook/Emma too much for that.

I love the Captain Beauty brotp dynamic. I think the actors have great chemistry together.

I find myself brotp-ing Hook with everyone. I think relationship-wise he's pretty versatile. I like the Golden Hook dynamic, Captain Beauty, Captain Charming, Captain Swan (in this case it's a romantic ship). Him and Elsa, Hookriel, Hook and Tink, loved his dynamic with Cora...Smee.

I feel like his kind of character works pretty well with almost everyone.

Too bad the writers don't seem to have developing character relationships high up their list.

[tennisgurl]

I feel like the writers get the most enjoyment out of a couple when they're still in the early stages of getting together, or are just having UST with each other, or are otherwise ship-able, but not officially coupled. It happened with Snow and Charming, who I guess the writers thought were already a couple, so why both doing stuff with them, and now I guess its Hook and Emma. They seem happy and stable now, so unless there's possibility for plot or angst, there's no real point in showing them. But if there's time to bait the freaking SwanQueen people? There`s always time for that! That`s why Emma is more upset about Regina being gone for five minutes than when her son was in a comma, or when her boyfriend had his heart ripped out. Who cares about those relationships that actually exist, they want to focus on the one that will never happen, and never should. Not because of homophobia, but because Emma being in a relationship with Emma is disturbing.

 

Or, like others have said, Emma thinks Regina is so weak willed she will go back to evil just like that. Which...yeah is true, but it didn't come off that way.  

[Dani-Ellie]

There was a very lengthy discussion in the Emma thread about this past episode, and I would like to state again that I do not at all believe Emma's freakout was all about Regina, and I do believe the show actually did tell us this. Canonically stated, there is much more going on in Emma's mind than "omg Regina," not the least of which is the fact that the people closest to her are keeping something from her and she senses it but they're all sitting there going, "Psh, Emma, everything's fine" when it's not. I really do understand the impulse, especially with these writers, to harken everything back to everything being about Regina but in this case, I do believe it's not in fact baiting and there is something bigger going on that has more to do with Emma herself than anything.

[Mari]

I am annoyed and frustrated with the relationship between Belle and Will. What the flouncy, frilly heck is the show doing?

I have zero problems with Belle moving on. No problem with it whatsoever. About time. However, Belle was totally, stupidly, blindly devoted to Rumple for several years. I do have trouble believing she'd be interested in a relationship not even two months after kicking her controlling, murderous husband out of town. What made her think that Will the thief and knave was trustworthy? Shouldn't she have a few trust issues? Maybe a few questions about her own judgment?

Will was truly in love and married. Where is his wife? Why is he dating? How did he get back to Storybrooke?

It's not that I object to the two characters dating, but should've some of the answers have been shown onscreen? For example what exactly do they see each other besides being the only main characters on show who are single? If we are supposed to Care shouldn't we know some of this stuff?

I really like Will in Wonderland and separated from from Rumple Belle is definitely an improvement over the usual Belle. But unless this is some sort of undercover operation, I really don't see what the point is. They've shown us nothing to make this interested in the two of them as a couple.

if the point is to give the two actors some screen time, then there are more natural and interesting pairings out there. For example, while Regina was quite ugly and abusive to Belle, if anyone on the show is going to understand how manipulative Belle's ex can be, it would be Regina.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Mari

[Rumsy4]

I have zero problems with Belle moving on. No problem with it whatsoever. About time. However, Belle was totally, stupidly, blindly devoted to Rumple for several years. I do have trouble believing she'd be interested in a relationship not even two months after kicking her controlling, murderous husband out of town. ...

Will was truly in love and married. Where is his wife? Why is he dating? How did he get back to Storybrooke?

 

 

Surprisingly perhaps, I am liking the little we have seen of the Will/Belle dynamic, but it is still rushed. If Will was hanging out with Belle, with both of them showing interest, but not dipping their toes into a relationship, that would have been one thing. But as is, it is a bit jarring to see Belle paired off with a new love interest, and working to defeat the husband she banished six weeks ago. It's like Baby Snowflake redux. The writers apparently want to skywrite the fact that Rumbelle is over, just as they signalled Neal is never ever coming back by naming Baby Do Over after him. And considering how long it's been since they introduced Will into the parent show, it's ridiculous that we still don't have his backstory. 

[Mari]

Yes. It's not that I object to the idea of them, it's just that it's like they're from an entirely different timeline. They're not bad together, but we've been given so little information, and their back stories don't fit where either character should be, emotionally--at least not without more than "oh, we're dating now."

[KingOfHearts]

My personal Scarlet Queen reservations aside, I don't have a problem with Scarlet Beauty either. But I think it's just kind of... there. I don't really see it as a relationship more than I do a plot device to drive Rumpbelle angst. The first time we saw them together was when Rumple was stalking them, which gives a clue to what it's really about. I'd be more game if we saw how they met or got some scenes of just the two of them without other characters barging in.

 

I realize it's not a serious or committed relationship yet. I think we've just gotten used to big romances with fireworks and fanfare (*cough* Outlaw Queen *cough*) and to see two characters just dating without setup is well... a little strange on this show. I'd like to see where it goes, I'm just not completely sold on it yet.

 

Alright, now I'll go back to ranting on Anastasia's absence...

Edited March 23, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[justcris]

I wish they would make Will an actual character on this show. Everything he does happens off screen! I liked him so much in Wonderland, this feels like such a disservice.

I'd love more scenes of him with either Belle or Hook. Or anyone really. 

[Joanh23]

ok so I'm now nervous about finding out what Snow and Charming did in the past - I really don't want to dislike the Charmings, but from the promo it does look like they took Malificents baby in order to ensure Emma would be a hero.  I can't see the show going so far as to have Snow and Charming do something so horrible that it would cause Emma to be permanently estranged from them - I personally would hate it if they went that far - I want Emma to get her happy ending and that includes having her parents in her life and not just Killian and Henry.  But from the promo it definitely looks like things are going to get very intense in the Charming family...

[Zuleikha]

Someone (sorry, I can't remember who) pointed out that Snowing went through Glinda's portal of pure hearts during the Missing Year. So it seems like either the writers have just decided they don't care about continuity at all, or Snowing can't have truly done anything that evil with the baby. Maybe there's some kind of twist with taking the baby actually being required to save the baby.

[Dani-Ellie]

I kinda can't wait. I love the Charmings to pieces but I love when we get into the angst (qualification: intentional angst) because it feels more real to me than just okay, we're a happy family now. I'm also willing to bet that Emma's going to be more upset about the fact that Snow and Charming are keeping The Dark Secret from her than whatever The Dark Secret is.

[OnceUponAJen]

With all Snow's talk about having hope in all situations in life, it doesn't make sense that the Charmings were so concerned about Emma turning out evil. At that point, they figured they'd be raising her with all sorts of positive influences and good role models. Snow and Charming are two people who had the deck stacked against them and they came out on top without compromising their principles. Why would they freak out about this over everything else?

It seems like they're now presenting this as a problem of pride...they are heroes and there's no way they can tolerate the chance of having an evil son or daughter.

Edited March 23, 2015 by OnceUponAJen