S03.E04: Dimebag

Dowel Jones · February 20, 2015

but how Elizabeth can even imagine an American born and bred girl will suddenly become pro-Soviet enough to do the work is beyond me.

Especially if the time comes for Elizabeth to pimp her out in order to seduce a target. Sorry for the mental image on par with Philip, but that's how I'm seeing Elizabeth. "They're not our children, they're assets of the state" kind of mentality.

Do either Philip or Elizabeth have any time to actually work at the travel agency?

Although it's not really on par with a defector at Zinalda's level, I remember reading of one of the high level KGB defectors and how he was closeted in a secret safe house for over two years, all the while being relentlessly interrogated to ensure his story was true and he wasn't a plant.

Clanstarling · February 20, 2015

See, I actually can understand why P&E would have steered away from this kind of talk--to them, it would likely seem far too risky, because kids blab. From their perspective, all they would need would be for Paige or Henry to go to school and say to the wrong child, or within earshot of the wrong teacher, something like "My parents say the Soviet Union isn't so bad!" and their goose would be well and truly cooked. I can see where, to ultra-paranoid people used to a much more invasive government, that would seem like too big a risk to take.

I agree. I first thought, sure they could have indoctrinated the kids growing up with communist adjacent beliefs, but then again, their job was to blend in as much as possible. Because of their own beliefs against America, conservatism was probably the first choice, if they bothered to discuss political ideas at all in the home. Talking about Vietnam in 82 was pretty risk-free, as the war was over and the national consensus was pretty much that it was a bad thing (or there were large enough quantities of people who held that belief that Phillip wouldn't stand out).

As for the baptism - atheists like P&E wouldn't hold any belief that the immersion itself meant anything - but the fact that their daughter fervently believed it was understandably alarming to them.

Who is worse, the true believer Elizabeth? Or Philip, the guy who is just doing his job, but really doesn't seem to completely buy the whole Soviet Union is better than USA thing?" It's an interesting question

It is an interesting question. It seems to me that Elizabeth is not just a true believer, but a person who sees others as tools to be used to fulfill her mission. Even her own children, though she loves them. Phillip may have been a believer at the start, but he seems to see his targets as people. The damage he has done to them, and continues to do to others, has worn him down. I doubt he's much of a believer anymore, but can't find a way out of it. So what he does seems to me to be just as bad as Elizabeth.

As for the personalities of the Russians, I don't know any personally. But I do remember in college avoiding the Russian Lit class because I never was in a good enough mood to survive all the gloomy novels. :)

I thought it was interesting that Nina used the absolute truth when feeling out her cellmate. She and Stan are both being honest. In Nina's case, her honesty is used to lure and trap her cellmate into revealing herself. In Stan's case, it hurts the woman he's trying to lure back to him. So, honesty is kind of a weapon.

The diner scene annoyed me at first. Stan and the (possible) defector sitting at a window where any sniper could easily see them just seemed wrong for an FBI agent protecting his charge. It seems more like the writers setting the stage for the purse to be a signal. (this show brings out my obsession with having blinds/windows closed at night - especially for spies and law enforcement)

Edited February 20, 2015 by clanstarling

sistermagpie · February 20, 2015

Also the reason Paige connected with the church group is because she found people that would listen to her and take a genuine interest in her, would spend time with her. It doesn't seem her parents, especially Elizabeth, have ever genuinely done that. Part of that is there job, they work a lot, they can't always be home with her, but as others have pointed out, it seems basically Paige and Henry raise themselves with little supervision.

I have never seen this dynamic at all. Sure her parents work a lot--so do a lot of parents have to do that. It doesn't make them disinterested in their kids. We've got plenty of scenes and references to Elizabeth and Philip taking very clear interest in their kids, spending time with them, talking to them, hanging out with them. I honestly feel like we've swung so far in this direction as a society that any time parents have any passionate interests other than their kids (in TV and movies) it's assumed the kids are neglected and hurting.

This episode was yet another example for me, because my parents weren't neglectful at all and yet neither of them would ever waste time quizzing me on flashcards for school. It was my job to do my homework. Yet here's Philip doing it like it's completely normal, and planning a birthday dinner with whoever his daughter wants to invite even if he hates the guy. He's not disconnected from either kid. He's just not going to know everything going on in their lives because they're individual people.

And I don't think the pastor is creepy. He is just as genuine in his beliefs as Elizabeth is with her. He just doens't have to hide them.

On the contrary, he flashes them proudly. And seems to admire himself for them.

If Paige thinks the church group is taking an interest in her genuinely in ways her parents don't she's a fool. It's a church group. It's Pastor Tim's job to recruit kids into the church and keep the kids in the church there and a youth group is part of that. He's certainly getting as much (if not more) out of it than he's giving with Paige. She gives him all her money, people for protests, busy work for protests and total hero worship. He just tells her how awesome his pov is and gives chummy advice about how her parents maybe aren't that bad. Does Paige think her guidance counselor cares more about her than the parents who worry about her personal happiness and future?

Not that there's anything inherently wrong with being a pastor or a youth pastor, but part of that means Pastor Tim is interested in Paige becoming a Christian as much as Jim is interested in Kimmie becoming an asset. His manipulation isn't as gross like Jim's and he thinks it's good for Paige, but Christianity is the priority here (or even his own ego as a shepherd of souls). Her father is the one trying to love her for whoever she is or wants to be, not the guy whose beliefs she's adopted as her own.

Edited February 20, 2015 by sistermagpie

stillshimpy · February 20, 2015

Rightly or wrongly I've believed that as much as anything Phillip was able to recognize that his life in Soviet Russia sucked -- because it would be hard to miss when you're being mugged for your food -- and that being a spy was the better alternative (scary, considering the hell they go through).

Elizabeth has been somewhat transparently trying to manipulate Phillip (standing there naked and talking about Hans checking her out, for instance) , but I almost preferred that to Elizabeth openly telling him it didn't matter what he thought, or how he felt about it. I find Elizabeth a fascinating character, but I wouldn't mind seeing this all blow up in her face at this point. I doubt it will, because the central premise of the show sort of requires that they continue spying, unobstructed. I wouldn't mind seeing her forced into being a double agent though. She ticked me off that much, because it isn't just for some "the glory of our wonderful cause!" it's that she's panicking about losing her daughter into what amounts to the freedoms of America and the United States.

I am no fan of organized religion and particularly not of Evangelical Christianity, but it is a freedom afforded to Paige because she was raised here. I don't know how Elizabeth manages to convince herself that she'll be able to dissuade Paige from actual Faith. Someone kind of brilliantly referred to Pastor Tim as someone begging to be outgrown , because no adult would look at him the way Paige does, but there is a very right-wing version of the Christian church right now that has people referring to themselves as Prayer Warriors ...full grown people who believe they can pray a particular political agenda into existence.

So yeah, I agree, Pastor Tim does seem the sort of person to be outgrown, but there are plenty of people who want to believe in something so much, they'll put reason and logic aside....Kind of like Elizabeth does. She knows The Center has lied to them and used them in the past, so I think the show has done a reasonable job of displaying the same psychological mechanisms at play in Paige and Elizabeth, but what Elizabeth can't see in herself is that once she determined what she believed, she has been unshakable in her devotion to it. Paige has already determined what she believed.

I actually didn't take much of a position on Zinaida and whether or not she was over-the-top in her Milky Way delight right from the start and there is a reason for that: I think Milky Way candy bars suck. You have to either have a Mars bar or a Snickers ;-) I'm being at least a little serious, I find them wretched so I assumed that my "Jeez, tone it down there, Sweets McGee, it's not that great" reaction had to do with the actual candy bar.

Nice period touch was the roller towel in the bathroom. I'm sure those things carried bacteria you could practically saddle and ride, but they were everywhere.

VCRTracking, you should check out the rest of Upstairs at Eric's -- which wasn't new to me and was about my favorite album of all time in the mid-to-late eighties. Alison Moyet had/has an incredible voice. While everyone else was waiting for Only You I was wondering if Midnight would make the scene.

Also, I think Kimmy is not actually an eighteen-year-old freshman and that Phillip was pretending to buy their bullshit "we go to Georgetown, we're totally eighteen. Yeah." story. As for the Love's Baby Soft commercial (quite possibly the creepiest thing ever to air) what I found more than a little disturbing about it is that the girl in that commercial -- god help her, how would you like to have the crap permanently affixed to the bottom of your "yeah, that was me" shoe? -- was vaguely reminiscent of Kimmy just to double your squicky horror.

sistermagpie · February 20, 2015

Someone kind of brilliantly referred to Pastor Tim as someone begging to be outgrown , because no adult would look at him the way Paige does, but there is a very right-wing version of the Christian church right now that has people referring to themselves as Prayer Warriors ...full grown people who believe they can pray a particular political agenda into existence.

I definitely thought of those people in this ep too--if Paige continues with the church she might drift rightward as she gets older. (Many people's political beliefs do, and this is the loudest group politically). Philip would much rather Paige be a prayer warrior than an actual warrior!

Rightly or wrongly I've believed that as much as anything Phillip was able to recognize that his life in Soviet Russia sucked -- because it would be hard to miss when you're being mugged for your food -- and that being a spy was the better alternative (scary, considering the hell they go through).

Yes, and while I hesitate to actually speculate about Philip since we don't know, I always imagine his opinion based on what he's said to be that he's not ashamed of actually enjoying the good stuff while he's got it. I assume that politically his feeling is that he wants a system where *everyone* has enough and he sees capitalism as condemning some people to poverty while others get too much. Elizabeth's view on that is much more black and white where she judges Philip for not hating (or saying he hates) all this stuff when he doesn't.

Paige at least at this stage in her life seems a bit more like Elizabeth, going all in on the belief system laid out by Pastor Tim and seeing her parents as falling short not just because they don't get the Jesus stuff but because they're not activists like Pastor Tim. She sees them as just living dead lives of comfort thinking of no one but themselves. I always find that a little funny since Elizabeth, at least, often makes it clear to Paige that she and Philip grew up very poor, and there's a big difference between comfortable middle class kids swearing off materialism and being genuinely poor.

Also, I think Kimmy is not actually an eighteen-year-old freshman and that Phillip was pretending to buy their bullshit "we go to Georgetown, we're totally eighteen. Yeah." story.

I definitely thought she was lying about going to Georgetown. I would never believe a bunch of girls trying to get into a club in Maryland saying they were 18 and went to Georgetown!

While everyone else was waiting for Only You I was wondering if Midnight would make the scene..

I was kind of hoping for Mister Blue, but that album hasn't come out yet I don't think.

ChromaKelly · February 20, 2015

How does belonging to a left-wing pacifist church translate to being down with communism, the Cold War, and killing (or at least being complicit in killing) people? I'm not sure how Elizabeth thinks Paige getting into the church is a step towards joining the Center?

Dev F · February 20, 2015

I thought it was interesting that Nina used the absolute truth when feeling out her cellmate. She and Stan are both being honest. In Nina's case, her honesty is used to lure and trap her cellmate into revealing herself. In Stan's case, it hurts the woman he's trying to lure back to him. So, honesty is kind of a weapon.

But in Sandra's case, is it worse than what Stan put her through before, when he was so obviously stepping out on her but refusing to be honest about it? I think that's how Stan's experiences with Zinaida tie in with the Sandra storyline: he sees how crazy Zinaida is making him with her "Everything is great! I'm tired of talking about about not-great things!" attitude, and he wonders if his similar attitude of denial is what drove Sandra away.

Hence his overcompensating confession, which Stan probably naively thought would help to heal their rift somehow rather than hurt her more. But he discovered that, unsurprisingly, Sandra might've actually preferred a little bit of denial to such brutal honesty. Exactly where you draw the line between honesty and positivity is one of the central tensions of the episode: "Do you want a ringing endorsement or do you want to know how the burgers are?"

sistermagpie · February 20, 2015

How does belonging to a left-wing pacifist church translate to being down with communism, the Cold War, and killing (or at least being complicit in killing) people? I'm not sure how Elizabeth thinks Paige getting into the church is a step towards joining the Center?

Elizabeth is always going to see what she wants to see! I assume the steps are that Paige is at least more left politically and can criticize the American government. She starts out protesting the US's nuclear weapons etc. In Elizabeth's mind, the US is the aggressor here and the USSR is just working for peace, so the main leap is going from "pointless" activism like protests that don't do anything to actually getting your hands dirty and making stuff happen.

Even in this ep Pastor Tim was musing about whether he would die for something (can't remember if he was thinking about killing for something). Elizabeth has made that choice. So it's like first Paige is politically aware, but Elizabeth just has to explain that if you really want to make the world more equal and safe you stop focusing on fairy tales (Elizabeth's words) about Jesus and reward in heaven and make stuff happen on earth. In order to make that omelette you have to break some eggs. Paige wants to make a difference in the world, so Elizabeth just has to tell her the real way to do that.

BW Manilowe · February 20, 2015

Especially if the time comes for Elizabeth to pimp her out in order to seduce a target. Sorry for the mental image on par with Philip, but that's how I'm seeing Elizabeth. "They're not our children, they're assets of the state" kind of mentality.

Do either Philip or Elizabeth have any time to actually work at the travel agency?

Although it's not really on par with a defector at Zinalda's level, I remember reading of one of the high level KGB defectors and how he was closeted in a secret safe house for over two years, all the while being relentlessly interrogated to ensure his story was true and he wasn't a plant.

We haven't had any scenes at the travel agency yet this season--but we're only, what, 4 eps into the season? There's time.

I'm pretty sure I remember scenes at the travel agency during the period when Philip & Elizabeth were estranged, before she was shot (I think I remember Philip leaving from there to try to help/rescue Elizabeth when he realized she was gonna go by herself on the mission where she ended up getting shot).

There may have also been brief scenes set there in both of the previous seasons--if nothing else, so we'd know they weren't just saying they owned a travel agency. I also remember, I think also from the period when they were estranged, we met 1 of their co-workers/employees there, who was a Latino man.

DrSpaceman · February 20, 2015

I have never seen this dynamic at all. Sure her parents work a lot--so do a lot of parents have to do that. It doesn't make them disinterested in their kids. We've got plenty of scenes and references to Elizabeth and Philip taking very clear interest in their kids, spending time with them, talking to them, hanging out with them. I honestly feel like we've swung so far in this direction as a society that any time parents have any passionate interests other than their kids (in TV and movies) it's assumed the kids are neglected and hurting.

This episode was yet another example for me, because my parents weren't neglectful at all and yet neither of them would ever waste time quizzing me on flashcards for school. It was my job to do my homework. Yet here's Philip doing it like it's completely normal, and planning a birthday dinner with whoever his daughter wants to invite even if he hates the guy. He's not disconnected from either kid. He's just not going to know everything going on in their lives because they're individual people.

On the contrary, he flashes them proudly. And seems to admire himself for them.

If Paige thinks the church group is taking an interest in her genuinely in ways her parents don't she's a fool. It's a church group. It's Pastor Tim's job to recruit kids into the church and keep the kids in the church there and a youth group is part of that. He's certainly getting as much (if not more) out of it than he's giving with Paige. She gives him all her money, people for protests, busy work for protests and total hero worship. He just tells her how awesome his pov is and gives chummy advice about how her parents maybe aren't that bad. Does Paige think her guidance counselor cares more about her than the parents who worry about her personal happiness and future?

Not that there's anything inherently wrong with being a pastor or a youth pastor, but part of that means Pastor Tim is interested in Paige becoming a Christian as much as Jim is interested in Kimmie becoming an asset. His manipulation isn't as gross like Jim's and he thinks it's good for Paige, but Christianity is the priority here (or even his own ego as a shepherd of souls). Her father is the one trying to love her for whoever she is or wants to be, not the guy whose beliefs she's adopted as her own.

Henry and Paige were picked up by a hitchhiker while trying to get home and could have easily been raped and/or killed.

Henry and Paige were left alone in the woods in a cabin with no adults around while their parents were trying to "protect" them at the end of last season.

Paige rode a bus hours to another state and returned, spying on her parents, before they even realized she had done it, though they figured it out after the fact only because someone else knew and told them

Paige left her room in the middle of the night to meet a friend she had met on that bus and ended up at a church youth group meeting, something her parents had no idea about for several weeks.

Henry left their house and snuck into a neighbors house to play a video game, was found by the neighbors and Elizabeth and phillip had to be notified he was not at home

I am not sure how many examples we need that their jobs result in neglectful parenting that have put Paige and Henry at serious risk. Seriously all of these things in combination in this day and age may very well lead to a child protective services investigation of Elizabeth and phillip. Maybe it wouldnt have back then, but now it might. And now to compound it Elizabeth wants them to follow their same path and put them at further risk, whether they want to or not.

As for the pastor being just interested in "recruiting" kids and nothing further, not genuinely caring about them or their well being, I fail to see where we have any evidence of that being the case, I think that is speculation. It might be true, we have never really seen the background of the pastor or what he is like outside the church or away from Paige or her father in their one scene together to know how much might be an act and how much is him being genuine. What we do know, at this point, however, is Paige is CHOOSING to go to the church. Elizabeth is wanting to force her to join a spy network, whether Paige desires to do so or not.

The pastor is certainly full of himself and likes talking about his brave minor civil disobedience that is really of not much consequence or risk, I will agree with that part of it. But Paige came to his church on her own. They all accepted her for who she is, without judgement, condemnation. The pastor is not, nor is anyone else, is forcing her to go there or to be friends with any of them. And nothing he is asking her to do as part of their activities seems harmful in any way. Protest war, help trouble kids, sing songs, have some meals there, thats about it.

stealinghome · February 20, 2015

Especially if the time comes for Elizabeth to pimp her out in order to seduce a target. Sorry for the mental image on par with Philip, but that's how I'm seeing Elizabeth. "They're not our children, they're assets of the state" kind of mentality.

I disagree. When it comes down to it, I don't think Elizabeth could use Paige as a honey trap--but the crux of the matter is that Elizabeth herself doesn't think she would ever have to. She's in total denial about what the Center would ask from Paige. She's totally convinced herself that the Center would be content with a Martha-esque figure--get a cushy CIA or NSA job, steal some files, tape some conversations, and pass them along. She thinks that Paige would work more like one of their marks/informers than P&E themselves. Is she in denial? 500%. But that's because she just can't face, yet, reality. And I can't wait for when she has to face it! It's going to be EPIC.

I have never seen this dynamic at all. Sure her parents work a lot--so do a lot of parents have to do that. It doesn't make them disinterested in their kids. We've got plenty of scenes and references to Elizabeth and Philip taking very clear interest in their kids, spending time with them, talking to them, hanging out with them. I honestly feel like we've swung so far in this direction as a society that any time parents have any passionate interests other than their kids (in TV and movies) it's assumed the kids are neglected and hurting.

This episode was yet another example for me, because my parents weren't neglectful at all and yet neither of them would ever waste time quizzing me on flashcards for school. It was my job to do my homework. Yet here's Philip doing it like it's completely normal, and planning a birthday dinner with whoever his daughter wants to invite even if he hates the guy. He's not disconnected from either kid. He's just not going to know everything going on in their lives because they're individual people.

This. I would also add that I think we've seen that Philip and Elizabeth sometimes have a hard time connecting with their kids--and that the lack of connection bothers them, Elizabeth particularly (because she finds it harder to connect). Obviously ymmv, but I do think a large part of what Elizabeth is doing now is because she genuinely wants to connect with, and open up to, Paige. In the earlier seasons, it seems that Elizabeth has always perceived a large barrier between her & Philip and the kids--like the kids can't know the real, true Philip and Elizabeth because of their covers and all that. (And she's not, necessarily, wrong.) But then when the possibility of telling the truth was dangled in front of her, she jumped at it, because that barrier could go away. She could really have what felt like a more genuine relationship with her kids, give them the heritage that (from her pov) has been denied them. Is she naive and blind? Absolutely! But I get it. I mean, how many people have grandparents or great-grandparents who emigrated to the US and yet are determined to keep some of the old customs alive, some of the Old World with them? Really Elizabeth's monomania here is just an enhanced/extended version of that desire not to loose one's roots. And in some respects, I actually think this is the most HUMAN we've ever seen Elizabeth be. This longing to connect with others no matter the cost, and the convincing herself that it will be alright because it HAS to be alright...it's just very human, to me. That she wants to be known by her daughter, bond with her over the cause Elizabeth has devoted her life to. Again, she's going about it ALL WRONG, don't get me wrong, but I really feel there's a certain layer of humanity/quasi-vulnerability from Elizabeth here that we hadn't before seen.

I have to agree that the pastor is creepy, simply because the ambush he pulled on P&E was totally uncool. Any adult who would go along with that, something's off in his head. Like everyone else, I don't think he's a pedophile or is embezzling or anything "major" like that--but I still think he's creepy, even if just in the Prayer Warrior way.

We haven't had any scenes at the travel agency yet this season--but we're only, what, 4 eps into the season? There's time.

I think we have had scenes at the agency, though. iirc, when Elizabeth opened up to Philip about how her mother said go do your duty and how can I say anything less about/to Paige, they were at the agency.

I am not sure how many examples we need that their jobs result in neglectful parenting that have put Paige and Henry at serious risk. Seriously all of these things in combination in this day and age may very well lead to a child protective services investigation of Elizabeth and phillip. Maybe it wouldnt have back then, but now it might.

I actually don't know that I see most of those examples as great examples of neglectful parenting. It's not GREAT parenting--but imo all of those things happen today on a not infrequent basis and are not at all considered grounds for a CPS investigation. I mean, really, what kid DIDN'T sneak out of their house once or twice or lie to their parents once or twice about where they were? If that was the minimum for a CPS investigation, every parent in America would be under investigation.

Edited February 20, 2015 by stealinghome

sistermagpie · February 20, 2015

We haven't had any scenes at the travel agency yet this season--but we're only, what, 4 eps into the season? There's time.

They were filing at the office once this season, when Elizabeth was telling Philip about going into the KGB.

Henry and Paige were picked up by a hitchhiker while trying to get home and could have easily been raped and/or killed.

As for the pastor being just interested in "recruiting" kids and nothing further, not genuinely caring about them or their well being, I fail to see where we have any evidence of that being the case, I think that is speculation.

I didn't say he didn't care about their well-being or that he's forcing her to go to the church or making her do harmful things. I said he didn't genuinely care about her more than her parents who love her do. Having flaws as a parent doesn't mean you can't also adore your kids. Being good at your job as a youth pastor doesn't mean you care about every kid you lead to Jesus more than their actual parents do.

Obviously ymmv, but I do think a large part of what Elizabeth is doing now is because she genuinely wants to connect with, and open up to, Paige.

I totally agree. I think Elizabeth's been clearly set up as having trouble connecting with Paige--or anyone--without being honest and sharing the central cause in her life and that's a big part of what's motivating her. She's trying to bring this all under one umbrella so she doesn't have to choose.

Moved the rest to the Philizabeth thread (thought I edited it earlier, sorry!)

Edited February 20, 2015 by sistermagpie

RedHawk · February 20, 2015

She sees them as just living dead lives of comfort thinking of no one but themselves. I always find that a little funny since Elizabeth, at least, often makes it clear to Paige that she and Philip grew up very poor.

Oh, yes, the irony kills me! Paige has this view of them as "typical suburban middle-class vanilla mom and dad", going to work, living in comfort, not "questioning" anything or being "involved".

Pastor Tim sitting there yammering about what he did during the Vietnam War protests, the time Paige called out her parents by saying about her newfound political activism "at least I'm doing something!", telling them how Pastor Tim was once arrested for protesting -- no wonder P&E just can't stand that guy.

I would love to see one scene where Paige talks about her home life with them. I'd just like another small clue to see how she views P&E. Paige has no other adults who she trusts and can talk to and so is very isolated -- no aunts or uncles, grandparents, older cousins, nice neighbor ladies younger than Elizabeth. I don't think Pastor Tim is a bad guy. He's just as he's represented and he does care about Paige, thinks she needs friendship and guidance and spiritual counseling. Maybe he and his wife feel there is "something wrong" in the Jennings household (I mean, most kids' fathers probably don't do what Phillip did to Tim) and genuinely believe they are helping Paige by giving her faith when she might otherwise turn to alcohol or drugs. I like the church story line and look forward to the next development.

Clanstarling · February 20, 2015

But in Sandra's case, is it worse than what Stan put her through before, when he was so obviously stepping out on her but refusing to be honest about it? I think that's how Stan's experiences with Zinaida tie in with the Sandra storyline: he sees how crazy Zinaida is making him with her "Everything is great! I'm tired of talking about about not-great things!" attitude, and he wonders if his similar attitude of denial is what drove Sandra away.

Hence his overcompensating confession, which Stan probably naively thought would help to heal their rift somehow rather than hurt her more. But he discovered that, unsurprisingly, Sandra might've actually preferred a little bit of denial to such brutal honesty. Exactly where you draw the line between honesty and positivity is one of the central tensions of the episode: "Do you want a ringing endorsement or do you want to know how the burgers are?"

Excellent point. I didn't meant to imply Stan intended to use honesty as a weapon - in fact, like you, I assume not.

Off the wall question - how do you do quote on a portion of a post? I haven't been able to figure that out.

La Tortuga · February 20, 2015

I am loving, by the way, how everybody is on the "Zinaida is too chipper to be for real" bandwagon now. Two weeks ago the consensus seemed to be that it's totally normal to have a public orgasm over a Milky Way, it's a Russian thing, plus Milky Way is genuinely awesome, nothing to be suspicious about :). And I do want to see Zinaida burst into that song. I bet she could do a fantastic "The Sound of Music".

I get why the bandwagon effect is amusing, but in defense of the initial Milky Way reaction, we had just seen Zinaida escape from Russia via a shipping crate. Of course she was over the moon for a candy bar--I figured she was probably over the moon for breathing free air instead of having to use an oxygen tank, too. We didn't know much else about her. But her behavior since then has cast suspicion on everything she's done since we first met her.

BW Manilowe · February 20, 2015

Excellent point. I didn't meant to imply Stan intended to use honesty as a weapon - in fact, like you, I assume not.

Off the wall question - how do you do quote on a portion of a post? I haven't been able to figure that out.

You can try copying & pasting just that part of the post, or copying & pasting the whole thing then removing the extraneous parts, & putting the quote tags on. Or you could set off the part you want to respond to in, like, italics or boldface, quote the whole post, & preface your reply by saying you're responding to the italicized/boldfaced part (I tend to do this option, when I remember to--it's kind of easier than editing the whole original post just to respond to part of it; especially when the original is a long post).

FormerMod-a1 · February 20, 2015

I don't find it difficult to just delete the parts of the quoted post that I'm not responding to. Just click in the quote box and delete the text you don't want. It's no more difficult than bolding or italicizing specific text.

RedheadZombie · February 20, 2015

If Paige thinks the church group is taking an interest in her genuinely in ways her parents don't she's a fool. It's a church group. It's Pastor Tim's job to recruit kids into the church and keep the kids in the church there and a youth group is part of that. He's certainly getting as much (if not more) out of it than he's giving with Paige. She gives him all her money, people for protests, busy work for protests and total hero worship. He just tells her how awesome his pov is and gives chummy advice about how her parents maybe aren't that bad. Does Paige think her guidance counselor cares more about her than the parents who worry about her personal happiness and future?

Not that there's anything inherently wrong with being a pastor or a youth pastor, but part of that means Pastor Tim is interested in Paige becoming a Christian as much as Jim is interested in Kimmie becoming an asset. His manipulation isn't as gross like Jim's and he thinks it's good for Paige, but Christianity is the priority here (or even his own ego as a shepherd of souls). Her father is the one trying to love her for whoever she is or wants to be, not the guy whose beliefs she's adopted as her own.

I don't know if it makes Paige a fool, but it definitely makes her a teenager. Teenagers are idealistic by nature, and are looking for a cause and a place to belong. Being raised by atheists, Paige has never had involvement in a church. In Phillip and Elizabeth's attempts at living a generic life, they're not closely connected to anything - family, friends, organizations, charities. They've always been too busy for the children to be involved in sports, boy/girl scouts, clubs.

I don't think Paige thinks the pastor cares for her more than her parents. She's been raised by a stern mother who doesn't work to build up Paige's self-worth, or pride in her accomplishments. Her parents are gone a lot, and when they're together they talk about homework and responsibilities, versus asking Paige about herself. Paige has found her cause and a place she belongs, and that's very powerful. Add in the possibility that she's truly found Christianity, and it's a formidable combo. Now that Phillip/Elizabeth know there's a "problem", they're suddenly in her face asking how she feels. She's not a fool. She's knows they're uncomfortable with religion in general, and the time she spends with the church specifically. For now it's the church that's fulfilling her needs, and as long as P/E are obvious with their disproval, she's not going to trust them enough to open up to them.

Paige at least at this stage in her life seems a bit more like Elizabeth, going all in on the belief system laid out by Pastor Tim and seeing her parents as falling short not just because they don't get the Jesus stuff but because they're not activists like Pastor Tim. She sees them as just living dead lives of comfort thinking of no one but themselves. I always find that a little funny since Elizabeth, at least, often makes it clear to Paige that she and Philip grew up very poor, and there's a big difference between comfortable middle class kids swearing off materialism and being genuinely poor.

It is funny that Phillip and Elizabeth have unintentionally done it to themselves. I don't know if Paige thinks they're lacking because they're not activists. I think she's old enough to see that they are workaholics, completely absorbed in their work (although she doesn't truly comprehend what that entails), yet don't seem satisfied or fulfilled by it. She may think they lack passionate beliefs and convictions - if she only knew!

I would love to see one scene where Paige talks about her home life with them. I'd just like another small clue to see how she views P&E. Paige has no other adults who she trusts and can talk to and so is very isolated -- no aunts or uncles, grandparents, older cousins, nice neighbor ladies younger than Elizabeth. I don't think Pastor Tim is a bad guy. He's just as he's represented and he does care about Paige, thinks she needs friendship and guidance and spiritual counseling. Maybe he and his wife feel there is "something wrong" in the Jennings household (I mean, most kids' fathers probably don't do what Phillip did to Tim) and genuinely believe they are helping Paige by giving her faith when she might otherwise turn to alcohol or drugs. I like the church story line and look forward to the next development.

I hope the show isn't going there with the pastor. They've been careful to avoid stereotyping atheists. Phillip and Elizabeth, though non-believers, still teach their children morals and values. I don't want to see religion stereotyped. The story is compelling enough without the pastor being corrupt or a pervert. Plus, the pastor being a bad guy would be a cop out. I want to see them struggle with this situation.

sistermagpie · February 20, 2015

In Phillip and Elizabeth's attempts at living a generic life, they're not closely connected to anything - family, friends, organizations, charities. They've always been too busy for the children to be involved in sports, boy/girl scouts, clubs.

I agree that Paige is being a very typical teenager in her response to the church, and her parents attempts to be as generic as possible have backfired on them, but I don't think they're as extreme as this. Paige was on the volleyball team and her parents were aware of it and concerned when she quit. Henry is heavily involved in sports to which Philip drives him, helps him practice for and presumably cheers him on. I don't think Elizabeth fails to praise Paige's accomplishments all the time either. They celebrate birthdays with the kids friends etc.

They're weird in that they don't have a lot of friends, etc., but they seem to be as involved in their kids' lives as anybody else's parents. I don't think they fail to ever ask Paige about herself. We've seen a lot of conflict scenes but they also seem to have pleasant conversations about things the kids like and want as well. She's getting to the age now where they need to question her feelings in ways they simply didn't before--she's a more complicated person. Elizabeth, especially, sometimes struggles with the instinct to just go with "because I'm your mother" but many parents do--that's the way she was raised.

I think Paige's reaction to her parents is meant to be heightened because of their being spies and so having all these extra stresses and times being out of the house etc., but at base it's just a heightened version of a normal teenage situation in any family more than something that special. Even Kelly on the bus seemed to have a more difficult home situation. Philip and Elizabeth are in many ways paying the price for things they have done as parents, it's true, but I don't think they're supposed to be quite so extreme in their mistakes. I think a big reason the story is so involving, for me anyway, is that Philip and Elizabeth aren't just reaping what they've sown here. Some of it is just stuff they couldn't predict and stuff that comes from Paige herself growing up in her own way. Part of finding out who she is means going through a period of judging her parents and defining herself against them and choosing a different, better role model who seems to represent all the things that they lack. Some of the mistakes they've made are pretty huge because their situation is so unfair and really reprehensible to their kids (they've brought them into a horrible situation and now they can only minimize the damage as much as they can--which might not be much), but a lot of them are just a case of their being human and not perfect even while they try to be good parents.

RedHawk · February 20, 2015

I hope the show isn't going there with the pastor.

I don't see what part of my post indicates I think we were going "there". Not quite sure what you mean by "there" or stereotyping religion. There's nothing wrong with a pastor and his wife giving spiritual guidance to a young person they think might be adrift and in need, and I don't see how that is stereotypical. What I meant to say was that Pastor Tim may simply be a dedicated, concerned Christian minister who cares about Paige and wants to help her in the best way he knows how.

RedheadZombie · February 21, 2015

I don't see what part of my post indicates I think we were going "there". Not quite sure what you mean by "there" or stereotyping religion. There's nothing wrong with a pastor and his wife giving spiritual guidance to a young person they think might be adrift and in need, and I don't see how that is stereotypical. What I meant to say was that Pastor Tim may simply be a dedicated, concerned Christian minister who cares about Paige and wants to help her in the best way he knows how.

I was agreeing with you, and also making a point. Sorry if it seemed otherwise.

benteen · February 21, 2015

You know, I just wanted to say that I really enjoyed The Americans thread on this board. The show is rich and engaging and I find the comments and analysis here to be engaging.

You know, when I look at the prison they stuck Nadia in, all I keep thinking is it's not that bad. It's prison of course and it sucks but the cell she's in doesn't come across as horrible.

That point brought up about how neglectful Elizabeth and Philip are, it's easy to see why Paige would fall in with the church she's with. He parents are often away and they have no family whatsoever. Philip and Elizabeth don't have any friends save for Stan and we see little in the way of friends for the kids.

sistermagpie · February 21, 2015

Regarding friends for the kids, the same is true on most shows, really. Paige has mentioned friends in the past and if she doesn't have so many now it's probably more down to the phase she's in. Henry mentions friends all the time and seems very social. The parents and kids have lots of affectionate scenes together.

Edited February 21, 2015 by sistermagpie

RedheadZombie · February 21, 2015

Something I'm confused about is the treatment of Zenaida. I know she was presented as a defector, but they seemed to let it go with very little questioning. I realize they don't want to treat her like a criminal, but that was the peak of distrust between the two countries, it's almost expected that spies would be sent as "defectors". I would think they would have searched her thoroughly, at the very least. Also, for her safety alone, it was foolish to eat before an open window. And I was surprised Stan let her enter the bathroom before he checked it for her safety. It would be very easy to watch her 24/7 (even in the bathroom/shower), control all her communications, and represent it all as being vigilant safety precautions. It seems so loosey goosey when they've openly acknowledged the danger.

RedheadZombie · February 21, 2015

Regarding friends for the kids, the same is true on most shows, really. Paige has mentioned friends in the past and if she doesn't have so many now it's probably more down to the phase she's in. Henry mentions friends all the time and seems very social. The parents and kids have lots of affectionate scenes together.

I don't think people are necessarily attacking their parenting - at least I'm not. My point is that they seem isolated, in part due to their extreme work hours, but mostly due to the generic public life they present. I'd easily believe that Elizabeth has not had one friend in the U.S. She befriends her marks by analyzing them and manipulating and lying. I also think that Elizabeth is the stereotypical stern Russian parent, and Phillip may overcompensate by being the friend at times.

The kids spend a huge amount of time alone and unsupervised and really don't think it's for justifiable reasons. They chose to live this kind of life, and they knew the impact it would have on their children. Plus, does anyone believe they weren't out of the house on missions when Paige and Henry were babies? It's horrible to even imagine. They're on borrowed time as it is covering things up. Paige has been on to them for a while. It's a miracle that something hasn't come up that caused Paige to call them at the office late at night. What would be their excuse for not answering? What if there was an emergency in the middle of the night? The police or neighbors wouldn't be able to track them down. All it would take is one casual comment from Paige regarding her workaholic parents to an office worker, for them to be outed as being gone a great deal from the office. I think everything's coming to a head.

Emme · February 21, 2015

I keep going back to that scene in the last episode where Agent Aderholt is asking Stan about being embedded with the white supremacists. Stan says something like, "tell them what they want to hear" (paraphrase) in terms of how he successfully embedded. I think that's in his mind as he deals with Zendaia.

Chaos Theory · February 21, 2015

so the main leap is going from "pointless" activism like protests that don't do anything to actually getting your hands dirty and making stuff happen.

That has always been the main leap in these things. "pointless" activism to active involvement. Sometimes all it takes is a nudge. I can see Elizabeth's mind turning when it comes to Paige. Nudge her little by little away from the church and towards more "useful" involvement and then introduce her to the Centre and then when she is ready tell her about her heritage. The problem was she got blindsided by Paige wanting to be baptized so now Elizabeth has to "nudge" a little harder.

panthergirl13 · February 21, 2015

My "Upstairs at Eric's" album had the sticker covering up "Yazoo" with "Yaz". Damn, wish i still had that (ebay).

Loved the episode, but the Virgo (and former pot smoker) in me just cannot fathom why all of these otherwise detail-oriented shows have people holding joints the way they'd hold a cigarette. I have never in my life seen a person smoke a joint that way.

gwhh · February 21, 2015

That KGB agent was as far as everyone knows was the real deal. James J. Angleton made that happen. Its a long story but he basically made to go crazy by the KGB making him believe that there was a bunch of high level moles inside US intelligence, destroying the it from within ( a 5 column so to speak), but it was just the normal level of inside operation as far as we know. Plus old James was slowing going nuts (aka paranoid) from the stress of his job also, head of CIA counter intelligence, from 1954 to 1975!

Remember in a COMMUNIST nation the government owns EVERYTHING including the people, there are no rights. Only what the government gives you at that moment and the rules of that game can change at any time (kind of like the mafia, but on a bigger scale), so if the Center told Elizabeth make her daughter a spy, she makes her a spy because she has NO right not to say no, nor the mental ability to say no either! For what ever reason Phillip is no go on that. Maybe, because he not a totally believer in communist after so many years in the USA and he sees it as more of a job and not a calling!

I think it would be funny if Phillip & Stan got together and got rid of all the annoying people in there life!

Especially if the time comes for Elizabeth to pimp her out in order to seduce a target. Sorry for the mental image on par with Philip, but that's how I'm seeing Elizabeth. "They're not our children, they're assets of the state" kind of mentality.

Do either Philip or Elizabeth have any time to actually work at the travel agency?

Although it's not really on par with a defector at Zinalda's level, I remember reading of one of the high level KGB defectors and how he was closeted in a secret safe house for over two years, all the while being relentlessly interrogated to ensure his story was true and he wasn't a plant.

You are correct about the isolation of the family. No REAL family. And not like your parents can have many "adults" friends! I mean what if one day you eating lunch with someone (in or out of disguise, the use disguise way to much on this show, in real life spies don't do that as much for a variety of reason). Your friend recognize you. Starts asking question now you got to kill him and your contact! I mean that would get messy, real fast!

I wonder if Phillip will have to get the old black gloves out again and go "revenge rampage" on Mr. groovy hair again, or try to again, since the first time he did not. And what was Phillip going to do to Mr. groovy hair the first time before groovy hair talked him down?

Maybe old groovy hair made of sterner stuff than we thought, was able to out think Phillip blind rage with just good vibes and words!

True intelligence work in the field is more like that old country muscle song lyrics: who cheating who!

Oh, yes, the irony kills me! Paige has this view of them as "typical suburban middle-class vanilla mom and dad", going to work, living in comfort, not "questioning" anything or being "involved".

Pastor Tim sitting there yammering about what he did during the Vietnam War protests, the time Paige called out her parents by saying about her newfound political activism "at least I'm doing something!", telling them how Pastor Tim was once arrested for protesting -- no wonder P&E just can't stand that guy.

I would love to see one scene where Paige talks about her home life with them. I'd just like another small clue to see how she views P&E. Paige has no other adults who she trusts and can talk to and so is very isolated -- no aunts or uncles, grandparents, older cousins, nice neighbor ladies younger than Elizabeth. I don't think Pastor Tim is a bad guy. He's just as he's represented and he does care about Paige, thinks she needs friendship and guidance and spiritual counseling. Maybe he and his wife feel there is "something wrong" in the Jennings household (I mean, most kids' fathers probably don't do what Phillip did to Tim) and genuinely believe they are helping Paige by giving her faith when she might otherwise turn to alcohol or drugs. I like the church story line and look forward to the next development.

Edited February 23, 2015 by gwhh

beeble · February 21, 2015

A quick note to the writers: in 1982, nobody said, "Dad got me the new Yaz album," because it was the first album.

While everyone else was waiting for Only You I was wondering if Midnight would make the scene..

I was a theatre kid in the 1980's. We would sing this at our cast parties. Then we'd put the Chess soundtrack on and all hell would break loose.

CarpeDiem54 · February 21, 2015

Loved the episode, but the Virgo (and former pot smoker) in me just cannot fathom why all of these otherwise detail-oriented shows have people holding joints the way they'd hold a cigarette. I have never in my life seen a person smoke a joint that way.

That bugged the snot out of me, too! That's not how you hold a joint.

DrSpaceman · February 21, 2015

I am not sure Paige completely views them as "typical middle class mom/dad". In fact we know she doesn't, really, based on the season ender from last year. Her discussion with Henry in the cabin, all her snooping around, makes it clear she knows SOMETHING is up with her parents that they are not telling her, she just doesn't know what it is. I suspect this is what she has expressed to Pastor Tim. She no longer believes there stories about a "travel agency" and she obviously knows how her parents act is outside the norm, and she is trying to find out why that is.

Really whether P/E tell her the whole story or not and regardless of whether they try and recruit her, they need to start filling her in on some details of why things are like they are for their family because the longer they let it go and don't tell her, the more she distrusts them.

In a way I think her "rebellion" and going to church, if you can call it that, is, though maybe not consciously in her mind, her way of telling them I can have a secret life as well you don't know about, kind of a tit for tat sort of thing. Her giving money to the church and wanting to be baptized a way of needling and prompting her parents to tell her what is going on with them, knowingly provoking them to spill it on why their jobs as "travel agents" don't add up.

The best parallel to Elizabeth in this story is really Stan's wife, I forget her name. She knows his job, but at the same time, he shut her out, wouldn't tell her anything, she knew something was wrong even if he wouldn't say so. Paige is the same way with her parents. She knows they aren't telling her the truth and her own version of divorcing/escaping from the soured relationship, instead of a separation, was finding something knew to focus on, in this case the church.

Stan views the self help group the same way Elizabeth views the church, bunch of BS, but its a tool in both cases to try and get them to open up to those in their lives and an outlet for those they have been lying to in their lives.

RedHawk · February 21, 2015

Loved the episode, but the Virgo (and former pot smoker) in me just cannot fathom why all of these otherwise detail-oriented shows have people holding joints the way they'd hold a cigarette. I have never in my life seen a person smoke a joint that way.

Was this the final scene? Maybe they were holding it like a cig to make it less obvious to anyone wandering by that it was a joint? We, um I mean people I used to observe who were smoking joints in public, would hold them like a cig and keep them low until any passersby moved on.

[Paige] knows SOMETHING is up with her parents that they are not telling her, she just doesn't know what it is. I suspect this is what she has expressed to Pastor Tim.

I don't think she would talk to Pastor Tim about that -- yet. There's a "code of silence" in her home and it would take something big to make her break it. She has loyalty to her parents and, while she thinks they do odd and suspicions things, I doubt she would muse about them to anyone else. She might one day ask Henry what he thinks of such and such situation. I see her talking to Pastor Tim and Mrs. Tim in a more roundabout way, just letting them know she feels disconnected from her parents.

Edited February 21, 2015 by RedHawk

DrSpaceman · February 21, 2015

I disagree. When it comes down to it, I don't think Elizabeth could use Paige as a honey trap--but the crux of the matter is that Elizabeth herself doesn't think she would ever have to. She's in total denial about what the Center would ask from Paige. She's totally convinced herself that the Center would be content with a Martha-esque figure--get a cushy CIA or NSA job, steal some files, tape some conversations, and pass them along. She thinks that Paige would work more like one of their marks/informers than P&E themselves. Is she in denial? 500%. But that's because she just can't face, yet, reality. And I can't wait for when she has to face it! It's going to be EPIC.

This. I would also add that I think we've seen that Philip and Elizabeth sometimes have a hard time connecting with their kids--and that the lack of connection bothers them, Elizabeth particularly (because she finds it harder to connect). Obviously ymmv, but I do think a large part of what Elizabeth is doing now is because she genuinely wants to connect with, and open up to, Paige. In the earlier seasons, it seems that Elizabeth has always perceived a large barrier between her & Philip and the kids--like the kids can't know the real, true Philip and Elizabeth because of their covers and all that. (And she's not, necessarily, wrong.) But then when the possibility of telling the truth was dangled in front of her, she jumped at it, because that barrier could go away. She could really have what felt like a more genuine relationship with her kids, give them the heritage that (from her pov) has been denied them. Is she naive and blind? Absolutely! But I get it. I mean, how many people have grandparents or great-grandparents who emigrated to the US and yet are determined to keep some of the old customs alive, some of the Old World with them? Really Elizabeth's monomania here is just an enhanced/extended version of that desire not to loose one's roots. And in some respects, I actually think this is the most HUMAN we've ever seen Elizabeth be. This longing to connect with others no matter the cost, and the convincing herself that it will be alright because it HAS to be alright...it's just very human, to me. That she wants to be known by her daughter, bond with her over the cause Elizabeth has devoted her life to. Again, she's going about it ALL WRONG, don't get me wrong, but I really feel there's a certain layer of humanity/quasi-vulnerability from Elizabeth here that we hadn't before seen.

I have to agree that the pastor is creepy, simply because the ambush he pulled on P&E was totally uncool. Any adult who would go along with that, something's off in his head. Like everyone else, I don't think he's a pedophile or is embezzling or anything "major" like that--but I still think he's creepy, even if just in the Prayer Warrior way.

I think we have had scenes at the agency, though. iirc, when Elizabeth opened up to Philip about how her mother said go do your duty and how can I say anything less about/to Paige, they were at the agency.

I actually don't know that I see most of those examples as great examples of neglectful parenting. It's not GREAT parenting--but imo all of those things happen today on a not infrequent basis and are not at all considered grounds for a CPS investigation. I mean, really, what kid DIDN'T sneak out of their house once or twice or lie to their parents once or twice about where they were? If that was the minimum for a CPS investigation, every parent in America would be under investigation.

I guess you are entitled to your opinion, but really, multiple examples of Phillip and Elizabeth not knowing where there kids are, what they are doing, and them in some of those cases being in serious danger.......CPS comments aside, which was not really my main point, if nothing else, it shows that there jobs in multiple cases put them in positions where they are not present for their children when needed.

Sure kids sneak out of the house at night, that happens, but how many kids ride a bus to another state or break into a neighbors house without the parents knowing? That is outside the realm of just normal 'kids being kids' behavior. Plus Paige was seemingly involved with the church for awhile without them knowing. Why does it take them so long to figure out. I'd have to go back and look to see how long it might have been happening before they know, I don't know exactly, but they are mad at her for going to church, yet they didn't even know she was doing it for awhile.

This day and age it seems no one is supposed to be 'judgmental' of any parenting styles, but really, pay more attention to your kids and what they are doing, where they are, and maybe they aren't sneaking off to places you don't know about and giving away money to a group they didn't even know she was involved with. You can't at least put some of the blame on them

rozen · February 21, 2015

"Who wears the pants?" is entirely accurate because that is exactly the way Elizabeth approaches her honeypots. Her way of obtaining information is to play up her frail femininity with one hand, then slap them with an emasculating statement with the other. Isn't it the very first episode where she sleeps with some agent and basically tells him to be more a man in the bedroom, prompting him to spill the beans on his Very Important Government Assignment? She also basically insults the abilities of the nerd last season so he would go back and get the information she needed. Philip actually develops a human connection to his targets. Obviously he can't pull a fast one on Martha since they're "married", but even with the neurotic wife he took the time to listen to her problems and try to make her feel ok about things. Elizabeth would have just told her dumb ass to get out of the car once she started crying over her newest injury. That's probably why it's so wearing on Philip, even though he has to manage many fewer sexual liaisons than Elizabeth. And why the thought of seducing Kimmy squicks him out even more. He doesn't play the mind games as willingly as Elizabeth.

I feel like Elizabeth is so desperate because now she sees what she could have had in Paige if she'd indoctrinated her early.She never bothered to think about how to break The Cause down into little, innocuous, pieces to slowly remold Paige into what she wanted. Elizabeth's only ever dealt with other fanatics, or people with no other options.

The EST guy and Pastor Tim are totally parallels in the way charismatic people prey on other's insecurities for their benefit. I wanted to throw something at the screen when Tim took his wife's hand eagerly as Paige declared her wish to be baptized. As if she were his daughter. It was very invasive and gross. Though I can't blame him for minimizing interactions with Philip, since the guy was about .20s from killing Tim with his bare hands last season.

I like Agent Beeman's actor because I feel like I get so much from just watching his face. He's constantly summing up the other person, filtering himself based on what he thinks will work on them. His admission to Sandra is probably one of the first raw truths he's spoken in years. He let Sandra see him, and she cried and ran away from him. She didn't engage in any of the EST methods at all. She didn't want honesty, she just wanted an outlet that gave her permission to shit all over him (which he deserves, obviously).

Zinaida is totally faking it. It could be a front because she's not really a defector, or maybe it's because she's terrified of being suspected as being one? If the Americans lost interest in protecting her (if she were really a defector), things would go very badly for her very quickly. If she were openly cynical and constantly analyzing situations, as she would have been trained to do, that could set off more alarm bells than acting like an earnest idiot. "I love America, I will eat all the fried things, look at my patriotism. Please, for the love of God, don't leave me twisting in the wind because then I'll be truly screwed." I'm excited to see where this storyline goes.

I'm just waiting for it to be revealed that both Anna and the Belgian girl are KGB agents who screwed up. Watch it be some Highlander shit, "turn the other girl or rot in prison forever." I laughed at how Anna even exaggerated her Russian accent during her first stab at connecting with the other girl.

Edited February 21, 2015 by rozen

DrSpaceman · February 21, 2015

As for the pastor "ambushing" the parents about the baptism, I don't really see it that way at all. I don't think it mattered when or how Paige told them she wanted to be baptized, it wasn't going over well. And I am not sure what better way or situation there would have been for Paige to tell her parents or how they expected her to do it. What or how would have been more appropriate? Those comments from Elizabeth in my opinion are simply a deflection by her about the real issue and her real problems with it, which is, she doesn't want her baptized.

And honestly, when I think about it, Elizabeth making these comments is a bit ridiculous. She is an international spy working undercover in a foreign country. she deals with real, actual situations of being ambushed, as she calls it, all the time. Earlier in the season she escaped 3 FBI agents after being identified as a spy out in public at night. She helped phillip cut up and carry a human being out of a hotel in a suitcase. She killed a foreign dignitary in a pool in a hotel and escaped afterwards. She commonly, as part of her job, is put in situations where she has to judge, manipulate and escape from those who could put her in real physical danger. But she gets mad and somehow can't handle a situation with her daughter and a pacifist pastor, in their own home, because she feels "ambushed", over a situation with her daughter wanting to be baptized? Really, seems a bit ludicrous, to me, for her to even make a statement like that.

If she was feeling placed in a position of not being able to say no, a simple "I appreciate your interest in Paige and her well being, but I would like to be able to discuss this with Paige in privately before we proceed" would have sufficed. She wasn't cornered by any means and her real problem was Paige wanting to be baptized, not how she was told.

Edited February 21, 2015 by DrSpaceman

BW Manilowe · February 21, 2015

This week's ep-related podcast with the Producers apparently discusses the Yaz album Philip got for Paige. Here's the show's Tweet with the Podcast link in it:

https://twitter.com/theamericansfx/status/568538906674606080

Edited February 22, 2015 by BW Manilowe

stealinghome · February 21, 2015

As for the pastor "ambushing" the parents about the baptism, I don't really see it that way at all.... And I am not sure what better way or situation there would have been for Paige to tell her parents or how they expected her to do it. What or how would have been more appropriate?

A moment that wasn't supposed to be Paige's birthday dinner? With the pastor and his wife sitting right there? Obviously ymmv, but I don't see how it's not an ambush (Philip and Elizabeth even agreed that it was--the first thing they've agreed on, like, all season!). Paige--with the pastor's permission--maneuvered her parents into a position where it would be highly uncomfortable for them to say no. The most uncomfortable position possible, in fact. It's Paige's birthday dinner, so that automatically implies a level of them being beholden to give her what she wants--a dynamic she played to the hilt by essentially saying "this is my birthday present," with the unspoken corollary "you HAVE to give it to me or you're awful parents." I was relatively okay with the conversation up until that point, but the moment she pulled the "it's my birthday present" card, I felt uneasy, because putting it in that kind of language makes it a certain type of demand. And (see more below), imo it was inappropriate for the pastor to be there. This is a conversation that Paige should have had with her parents privately first before bringing an outsider into the family dynamic. The pastor being there was definitely to exert a type of pressure on Philip and Elizabeth that Paige alone couldn't manage, but a pressure that would make it even harder for them to say no. Paige was totally trying to force their hand here.

Now, I don't blame Paige for setting the ambush up so much--I mean, it's not cool, but it's also a classic manipulative teenager move. She may not even have been fully aware of how manipulative it was. I fault the pastor more because he knew it was an ambush and went along with it anyway. He, as much as Paige, was hoping to capitalize on the situation and put P&E in a situation where it was impossible for them to say no to something he knows they don't want for their child and are uncomfortable with. In that situation, I expect way more discretion, tact, and respect for the parents from a religious leader (thinking back to the youth pastors I knew when I was a kid--I can't imagine any of them going along with what Pastor Tim did). What the pastor should have done as the adult in this relationship, imo, is tell Paige that he (obviously) fully supports her desire to be baptized, and that he's happy to sit down with her parents and talk about the process and what it entails and what it means and so forth and answer any and all of their questions, but that getting baptized was a topic that she needed to broach with her family first and talk to them about first before bringing him in. It's not something she should have dropped on them with him sitting right there in the room--over her birthday dinner, no less. The fact that he agreed to be there for what should have been a private conversation implies, to me, a certain lack of respect for P&E as Paige's parents that I find distasteful. And that he agreed to it makes me question his judgment.

Don't get me wrong--Philip and Elizabeth would have had massive problems with the baptism request regardless of when/how Paige asked. But I do think the manner in which she asked bothered them, given that they said out loud that it bothered them. And separate from P&E themselves, again, the way in which the pastor conducted himself throughout the whole thing made me think less of him.

Edited February 21, 2015 by stealinghome

RedHawk · February 22, 2015

I think it's great that the super-successful, skilled spies are getting tripped up by their own teenage daughter! Just the place they don't expect to have to be anything other than parents, and then parenting gets tricky and complicated and they have no "training" in how to deal with it. Enjoy the teenage years -- Henry is next!

panthergirl13 · February 22, 2015

Sure kids sneak out of the house at night, that happens, but how many kids ride a bus to another state or break into a neighbors house without the parents knowing?

My parents were really strict and controlling, yet when I was 16 they believed I was spending the night at a girlfriend's house a few blocks away when, in fact, I took a flight to Maine to meet up with a married man with whom I was having an affair. (it was 1971...I had never even been on a plane before.)

My mother is 92 now and she still doesn't know. She keeps saying she hopes she will just have a heart attack and die one of these days, so maybe I should tell her... hehe

RedHawk · February 22, 2015

Yeah, it was so much easier to get away with things back in those days before cell phones and texts and constant contact between parents and children. Most everyone I knew back then did things that would totally freak out today's parents. Most of us survived just fine and still tell the tales!

Just noticed that when Philip is in the bedroom and Elizabeth comes in to bitch at him about the Yaz album, he's reading the charter (1st) issue of PC Magazine. Nice detail and a callback to the episodes where he visited the professor who "explained" how a computer works, or software, or something (I forget). Looks like that piqued Philip's interest.

In the last episode he was reading the Breshnev issue of TIME.

Edited February 22, 2015 by RedHawk

sistermagpie · February 22, 2015

I am not sure Paige completely views them as "typical middle class mom/dad". In fact we know she doesn't, really, based on the season ender from last year.

But she assumes whatever they're up to has to do with something like affairs--iow, they're focused on themselves, and money, and their own desires. Things that people who don't care about the greater good care about. That's how they're typical suburbanites. to her, imo She's never suspected they're out at night doing anything other than things that are kind of sordid and selfish.

Sure kids sneak out of the house at night, that happens, but how many kids ride a bus to another state or break into a neighbors house without the parents knowing?

Lots of them! Because who tells their parents when they're planning a secret bus trip or a break in? I guess if you're a super helicopter parent whose kids are never out of sight you can be sure you always know where they are but that's a very recent idea. In 1982 I think it would be considered normal to give a 14 year old the privacy and freedom Paige has, and same with 12 year old Henry. Both of them simply used times of the day when they were trusted to have privacy and freedom to do something they wanted to do that nobody knew about.

And if they were really clueless there would be no story because they wouldn't care or know what Paige was doing.

The fact that he agreed to be there for what should have been a private conversation implies, to me, a certain lack of respect for P&E as Paige's parents that I find distasteful. And that he agreed to it makes me question his judgment.

And it isn't the first time, imo. Taking all that money from her showed the same kind of breezy entitlement, imo. Not only because he didn't reach out to the parents to make sure they knew but in thinking it was okay to take that amount regardless. Almost every time we see Pastor Tim he's showing that kind of ownership over the kid--and Philip and Elizabeth probably aren't the only parents who dislike him for it. I imagine he's probably also got a few conservative parents who resent hi politics as well, even if they respect their kids freedom to have their own beliefs too.

If the point of the dinner was for Pastor Tim to improve his relationship with her parents--as Philip and Elizabeth assumed it was and tried to do in somewhat good faith--the script wouldn't have had him talking all about himself to Paige and ignoring her parents until it was time to explain the baptism that came as no surprise to him. (Also nice touch making a point of saying that this isn't something the church would do without the parents' permission as if the church hadn't crossed those kinds of lines before.)

To me his behavior indicates that he just gets off on the hero worship of the youth group kids. Not because he wants them to put them in an evil cult or anything, but just because it feeds his ego and he sees the parents as hopelessly flawed so the kids can't have a better relationship with their families. Remember the first time Paige told them about the group she brought up Kelly's "messed up family." Later she mentioned some other kid whose dad had an affair. Paige's family is "messed up" in its own way too. I also remember being a little annoyed at Pastor Tim on the bus prompting Paige to tell him whether her dad gave her a hard time. On one hand I could see why he had that impression of Philip so give him the benefit of the doubt (even though he actually had done something wrong that he never admitted). But otoh it frankly sounded like he was intentionally prompting her to complain about her father to good 'ole Pastor Tim.

I don't think Pastor Tim is sinister like Gabriel, but I don't think it's crazy to think of all these older guys with younger people working for their approval as a group. It also makes me think vaguely about the whole consumerism angle. Elizabeth saw it as her duty as a daughter to respect her mother and do her part. We don't know about Philip's family but he seems to have behaved somewhat similarly with Elizabeth as a husband. So it seems very different notion that the parents are there to fulfill the emotional needs of the kids.

Nice detail and a callback to the episodes where he visited the professor who "explained" how a computer works, or software, or something (I forget). Looks like that piqued Philip's interest.

In the last episode he was reading the Breshnev issue of TIME.

I adored both these moments because they do seem like a pattern with Philip studying stuff. He was very wary of computers last season but I love the idea that he's dealing with it by learning about them, especially since we know how important they'll be. This is the kind of spy he is. Elizabeth seems more focused, like she learns what she needs to know (so probably isn't going to be checking out something new).

Edited February 22, 2015 by sistermagpie

panthergirl13 · February 22, 2015

Yeah, it was so much easier to get away with things back in those days before cell phones and texts and constant contact between parents and children. Most everyone I knew back then did things that would totally freak out today's parents. Most of us survived just fine and still tell the tales

I would take issue with "survived just fine". My kids were a lot safer than I was because I parented differently than the way I was raised. /OT

stillshimpy · February 22, 2015

He, as much as Paige, was hoping to capitalize on the situation and put P&E in a situation where it was impossible for them to say no to something he knows they don't want for their child and are uncomfortable with. In that situation, I expect way more discretion, tact, and respect for the parents from a religious leader (thinking back to the youth pastors I knew when I was a kid--I can't imagine any of them going along with what Pastor Tim did)

Not that I'm defending Evangelical Christianity, because to put it very mildly, I'm not a fan. That said, Elizabeth actually attends Tim's church now. Sure, it was an ambush of Phillip, and again, not to defend the inherent discourtesy in the dinner table move, Tim was on the receiving end of Phillip pretty baldly threatening him, so I'm having a hard time blaming Tim for wanting Phillip to be informed in an atmosphere where he was a LOT less likely to act like borderline psychopath.

In that initial "Hi Pastor Tim, here I stand, wearing what anyone would interpret as an expression of murderous rage....while wearing finger print concealing gloves...in an otherwise empty church...and blowing the menacing meter sky-fucking-high" meeting Tim did actually say he didn't realize Paige hadn't told her parents about the money and told them he would give it back. That's not unreasonable as an assumption, and it's not likely he was lying, because Tim kept openly discussing this wonderful donation. He clearly did think, "You must be so proud of her generosity!"

Having said all that, yeah, he's a strange, self-aggrandizing dude, who probably likes working with kids because they lack the sophistication to really parse out the sense and reason of a bunch of things (including stuff like, "God told Noah to build an ark....try not to think about that for more than a few second, okay?" ) and he gets to feel self-important.

But as for the tremendous disrespect shown to Elizabeth and Philip: Elizabeth is attending his church, bring brownies to potlucks and stuffing envelopes. Tim has no reason to think she'll pee the floor in horror and he has reason to be very wary of Phillip because....Phillip brought that down on his own damned head.

My kids were a lot safer than I was because I parented differently than the way I was raised. /OT

Aren't you the person who just said that you did things like take a plane and to this day your mother doesn't know? I'm seriously not trying to be an ass here, but I sort of assume that with my 24-year-old son there are crapload of things I still don't know, and will never know about what he got up to without me actually knowing, despite the efforts I put into being a vigilant parent. I did stuff like disappear for four days at a time, and my mom never actually even worried about me, but there's a lot of reasons for that. Isn't it sort of possible that your own kids have their own "not even on her deathbed would I reveal this" list?

I'm just saying....it's sort of safe to assume that no matter what, kids figure out work-around behaviors for the vigilance of parents. I'm sure you tried, I know I did and I'm sure my hair would still fall the hell out if I knew the extent of what my son actually did.

Now, having said all that, Phillip outwardly acknowledged that he isn't around much to Paige just last week. Paige replied that that was okay, because Phillip and Elizabeth were primarily into each other (more or less) and it was nice that they were such a solid unit. The stuff we've seen with Paige and Henry hasn't been all that damned extreme, but frequently enough they go to sleep in a house without either parent present. I don't think Phillip and Elizabeth should be brought up on charges, but even by the laxer standards of the 80s day, they are a little bit less vigilant than even most "Seriously, our parents might plotz if they found out what we were up to, I almost keel over just contemplating all the stuff that could have happened, but didn't."

I have a difficult time blaming either of them though. I don't think they are terrible parents, I think they do try and I think they have a slightly higher failure rate than other parents might.

As to whether or not Pastor Tim was being a self-important jackass and really disrespecting Phillip and Elizabeth, Phillip acted like a full blown maniac once already. Pastor Tim is exhibiting some "fits with the part he has chosen in life" cheek-turning forgiveness just by being willing to show up in their home.

So my reaction to Elizabeth's "She set us up" was more of the "And man alive, did you both ever have that and a lot more coming."

Edited February 22, 2015 by stillshimpy

sistermagpie · February 22, 2015

But as for the tremendous disrespect shown to Elizabeth and Philip: Elizabeth is attending his church, bring brownies to potlucks and stuffing envelopes. Tim has no reason to think she'll pee the floor in horror and he has reason to be very wary of Phillip because....Phillip brought that down on his own damned head.

But he's springing it on her too. Which in a way sort of refers back to the vigilance discussion in a funny way as well, because even when Elizabeth is dragging herself to a church she hates and stuffing envelopes and giving him frozen smiles, he still obviously worked all this out with Paige and didn't suggest that she speak to her parents about it privately to start with--not even Elizabeth. Nor does he go to Elizabeth one of the many times they're at church and say hey, let me talk to you about something. Paige is interested in being baptized...

I don't know--as others have said, there's no way to do this that isn't going to bug her parents because they hate the idea. But Tim doesn't seem to be strictly acting out of any terror of Philip. One of the interesting things about the story in a way is that it's not really about the adults reacting to each other. Tim's more a symbol of something (just as Jim and Gabriel are) than an antagonist in himself. He and Philip have both done things to bring on negative reactions of the other: Philip showed up like some dark assassin and seemed psycho. Tim took a lot of money and acted like it was just a misunderstanding. (I can imagine plenty of other men also showing up and making threats over that--Philip was just more psycho because of the potential danger he radiated compared to, say, some guy who yelled over the phone and threatened to sue or something.) But while those things inform their relationship, they don't really seem to be central to what's going on.

For instance, Tim doesn't seem to be acting out of any big fear of psycho Philip at dinner since he's continuing to instruct Paige in front of him and ignore her parents. And Philip and Elizabeth aren't angry at him specifically (Philip really never was). Neither of them blame Tim for the set up, even if I think they clearly see him as in it and are annoyed by it. I think at this point they see Tim as just a guy who is what he is who is by nature going to do what he does, just as Tim seems to see them.

I don't think Phillip and Elizabeth should be brought up on charges, but even by the laxer standards of the 80s day, they are a little bit less vigilant than even most "Seriously, our parents might plotz if they found out what we were up to, I almost keel over just contemplating all the stuff that could have happened, but didn't."

True-I mean, they're out of the house at night. That's the thing they do that's completely off the charts. It seems like they sometimes try to stagger it so one of them's home, but usually they sneak out in the middle of the night

I also think they weren't always as busy as they are now. Philip, especially, now has a schedule that includes Martha so he's splitting his time. And I do think the war in Afghanistan is taking up more of their time. Setting the show in the early 80s was done because it's when the Cold War really heated up so P&E really are in some ways parents whose jobs have become more demanding at a time when the kids are old enough to notice and at a time when their older daughter is at the age to be defining herself by outside influences anyway.

Of course what's also funny about it throughout is that despite all their time out of the house the kids still aren't dealing with the kind of independence and responsibility that their parents did at younger ages, which is going to affect the way Philip and Elizabeth see things. Their kids are still incredibly coddled by their standards.

stillshimpy · February 22, 2015

It is pretty funny, isn't it? To Phillip and Elizabeth they ARE what I consider myself to be: "Wow, I really felt like a much more attentive and involved parent than my mom was for me...." ....but who the heck knows went into Phillips "off to do battle for a pint of milk, bye Ma!" childhood....and Elizabeth's mother sent her off into a program where she'd be raped as a means to preparing her to have emotional detachment from her body, all for the great Soviet good.

They would win entire bookcases worth of blue ribbons as parents compared to their own.

I don't know--as others have said, there's no way to do this that isn't going to bug her parents because they hate the idea. But Tim doesn't seem to be strictly acting out of any terror of Philip.

That's true, but by the same token...it's baptism, not taking religious orders and declaring ones wishes to be a bride-of-Christ, soon to begin her vow of silence. It's a strange dunk in a pool to a non-believer and akin to confirmation for most others. I'm agnostic, personally and it's a fairly meaningless thing to me other than someone declaring their Faith, which ...rock on. Meaningless to me, meaningful to them.

The "that showed a lot of disrespect" would lie in actually knowing what a terrible affront it is to everything Phillip and Elizabeth believe. Otherwise it's just a weird bath to non-believers which is why I think Elizabeth focused on "She set us up" rather than "they set us up". Paige does actually know, or suspect how truly anti-theism Phillip and Elizabeth are.

But again, it's not a declaration of anything so significant that it would necessarily warrant a separate "let us all have a long, sensitive talk about this" because someone attending church believes (or that's the theory) and that's just part of believing for a lot of Christians.

Whereas I do think Pastor Tim was being a little too oblivious about how Phillip might feel -- because he does know Phillip isn't just an agnostic, but someone who reacted to a church like it was a dangerous cult. It's just....it's not that big a deal from the perspective of someone who does believe...for them it's a good thing, a great thing, a "welcome to the family from here to actual eternity! Woo!" thing.

And to most nonbelievers it's just kind of "how often do they change that water, that's what I'm wondering" ....but I think that Pastor Tim would need to be privvy to "They aren't just atheists or agnostics, they are wildly, completely 'screw your people subjugating power structures with their made up figureheads" information that he'd almost have no way of guessing.

It's not the same as declaring "I'm going to take orders, never have sex, eschew all things in our home from this point forward, see you at the airport, I'll be the one with the tambourine and face powder!" . so I'm not sure why Pastor Tim should have treated it as this highly sensitive matter that ought to be approached very delicately, because it's sort of a par-for-the-course part of a lot of Christian factions.

That said, the guy is vaguely creepy so I'm completely down with disliking him, just I'm not sure that's evidence of him being underhanded. I think a big part of the "I told Paige we would need to talk to both of you" actually was because of Phillip's deranged act in the church offices actually.

ETA: I guess part of my bewilderment over that is that whereas I was raised an Episcopal , I am now an agnostic, but my son did attend a church and was actually Baptized through his dad's church. As an adult my son did not continue to go to church and gave it up at about 16...but I confess, I was fairly certain that would be what happened and the news that "I'm getting Baptized" was greeted with a small wince when I heard it was going to be at a local Reservoir...because frankly, the water smelled and that was the entirety of my reaction. Admittedly, I was very much of the "I'd rather he make his own, informed choice and decide for himself".

,

Edited February 22, 2015 by stillshimpy

sistermagpie · February 22, 2015

That's true, but by the same token...it's baptism, not taking religious orders and declaring ones wishes to be a bride-of-Christ, soon to begin her vow of silence. It's a strange dunk in a pool to a non-believer and akin to confirmation for most others. I'm agnostic, personally and it's a fairly meaningless thing to me other than someone declaring their Faith, which ...rock on. Meaningless to me, meaningful to them.

I think this is very true--I am just fascinated at trying to get to the bottom of my reactions to Pastor Tim and exactly what's going on, and I think this is part of it. Because I think this is a huge part of it--to Tim, the whole situation just looks very differently than it does to them. The baptism thing, to me, doesn't stand out as a particularly bad thing Tim has done at all. It's just completely in character with his general attitude from what I've seen--and it's an attitude that bugs me as a viewer and would bug me as a parent. But it's not suddenly more sinister when he's presenting the baptism.

I think he probably talked about this with Paige in the way he usually is seen to talk to her, as the dude who understood her love of Jesus and got that her parents didn't get it, so he's willing to be there with her to back her up when she asks them. It's possible that if she'd asked her parents--particularly Philip--she would have gotten a sympathetic ear about the baptism--just not one that would have necessarily gotten her the baptism she wanted.

Paige, I think, knew that in doing it this way she was sticking it to her parents and forcing them to do what she wanted, and she's an adolescent so that's what she does. I think Tim probably happily believed that her parents really would be difficult and Paige needed his emotional support--which feeds into his larger view of himself as being just an awesome friend to all these teenagers. Neither Paige nor Tim know that her parents have very strong beliefs of their own, so he probably thinks they just see the church as weirdness because they're wrapped up in their non-spiritual lives that make them unhappy and what can you do about people who aren't ready to accept the gift that God and Tim are telling them about? If they're not ready they're not ready. Paige is ready. Tim hasn't influenced her at all, in his mind, he's just talked to her honestly and she was smart so she listened.

This is also why I can relate to Elizabeth's frustration in knowing that Paige thinks they just don't understand commitment--and Philip's too.

So I do keep coming back to my same initial impression of the guy: I really dislike him, but it's just a general dislike of his personality and his attitude in just about every scene he appears in. He would get on my nerves in reality as well--I don't think I would have liked him at Paige's age either. But that's how it works--there's a reason that the kids in the church group are probably a pretty homogeneous bunch, just as the kids at Paige school into New Wave are.

Edited February 22, 2015 by sistermagpie

pasdetrois · February 22, 2015

Growing up, I had school friends whose parents worked in shadowy organizations about which the parents were not forthcoming. I think the parents thought we had no idea, or that their children were buying their vague explanations. Actually their children would talk about it and speculate.

So, I wonder if Paige might speculate that her parents are AMERICAN spies, not Soviet spies.

panthergirl13 · February 22, 2015

Aren't you the person who just said that you did things like take a plane and to this day your mother doesn't know? I'm seriously not trying to be an ass here, but I sort of assume that with my 24-year-old son there are crapload of things I still don't know, and will never know about what he got up to without me actually knowing, despite the efforts I put into being a vigilant parent.

Totally agree. What I was reacting to was the statement by another poster that said we did these things and we "survived just fine.". That just pushed a button for me like when people talk about 'the good old days' when people didn't overprotect kids and everyone turned out just great. My point was that I *was* an attentive parent, unlike my parents who thought they were so 'strict' but were completely clueless, and I was anything but safe. I'm sure my kids did things I didn't know about, but I'm also certain they didn't find themselves in mortal danger or the victims of violent crime. There's a big difference.

I don't think we're in disagreement here.

And to bring this back around to the show, while I think Phillip and Elizabeth are pretty loosey-goosey with their oversight, I think the bigger parenting issue is that one or both of them is highly likely to end up DEAD... (and then what??)

RedHawk · February 22, 2015

Neither Paige nor Tim know that her parents have very strong beliefs of their own, so he probably thinks they just see the church as weirdness because they're wrapped up in their non-spiritual lives that make them unhappy and what can you do about people who aren't ready to accept the gift that God and Tim are telling them about?

I agree with this and think that another part of Tim's thinking may be that eventually Paige's strong faith might one day "lead" Philip and Elizabeth to God. This is very much evangelical thinking. He does not see his actions or Paige's as pulling her away from her family but possibly "opening a door to Christ" in their lives.

Edited February 22, 2015 by RedHawk

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