S03.E04: Dimebag

[Umbelina]

She would assume she's being watched if she's undercover, AND, that taking any advantage of that to leave a message would be expected.  Although I can't see what information she would have to pass on anyway.

 

However, that's got me thinking. 

 

IF she saw someone she recognized enter that bathroom, or was given some kind of sign?  She may have been picking up something, rather than dropping something off.  The bathroom is a logical place for any drop, and arranging that in advance, not a stretch, since the KGB would have known they would take her out to reinforce "America is free!  America has cool restaurants!"  Heck, she already asked to go see the sights, and most of those have nearby bathrooms as well.  The fact that she's female works well too, since most of the FBI agents were (and still are) male.

 

ETA

Good point about Nina and the Belgian.

 

Back to Zenaida.  I'm sure that it was prearranged that anytime there is a bathroom nearby?  Check it.

Edited February 19, 2015 by Umbelina

[stillshimpy]

Back to Zenaida.  I'm sure that it was prearranged that anytime there is a bathroom nearby?  Check it.

 

Again, the thing with her purse might have been a signal.  Something about that seemed to bother Stan and the scene made rather a big deal out of Zinaida forgetting her purse at the table and then doubling back for it. 

[RedHawk]

What I think we're seeing is the character acting, versus the actor failing to bring to life a character.   It's one of the most difficult things to do, show just enough artifice to make it register "hey, my character is pretending" because it requires a really good actor to pull if off.

 

 

I agree that it's hard work to do this, and I think the actress playing Nina does an amazing job of keeping us guessing exactly what's going on in Nina's mind. This actress, however, isn't doing it in a way that works for me. I feel like, wow, if Stan isn't already convinced she's lying and acting her role as a defector, then he's really missing it. Yes, she's telling him what he wants to hear, over and over. Pretty obvious to me, and that's why I find it uninteresting. Would have been better for it us to slowly catch on that she was doing that. The Milky Way thing is ridiculous. "What is tuna melt?" Please.

[sistermagpie]

Once again they hit the peace-anti-war gong as being a big part of Paige's involvement with the church.  Her starry-eyed "You're a pacifist!" with such admiration made me wince a little, because Elizabeth isn't just blind, she's deaf if she doesn't get that Paige is so not going to be down with Mother Russia being her homeland on any level.

 

 

Someone elsewhere noted that Paige and Pastor Tim are ignoring everyone else at the table. He's telling tales of himself as a hero--note that he completely ignores Philip's attempts to chime in on the actual issue of the Vietnam war, which Philip agreed with (and certainly got more involved with!). Pastor Tim just went on talking about how what seeing himself in the paper made him think about his own self with Paige listening to him as if he was giving a lesson, which he was. It was surely ironic that the caption he was thinking about was "I will not kill, I will not die" which Paige took to be a pacifist statement but actually kind of wasn't. It was just Tim imagining himself as doing one or the other. Not that a newspaper would have been unbiased in the way they presented a protester of the war of that time, but it really seems significant that Tim's being associated with a phrase that however fitting it was to protesting the war (he's saying he won't kill or die for a cause he won't believe in) on this show simply makes him not a real player. "I will not kill" is pacifist. "I will not die" is not.

 

Anyway, when the person noted that Tim and Paige were ignoring everyone else it really struck me because I had noticed that exact thing in a different scene...The one with Jim and Kimmy and her friends.

 

Philip basically uses the same technique, talking only to her, singling her out for his special attention. And she responds to it in the same way. Tim's barely making an effort, that I remember, to connect with Paige's parents. He's marking his territory all over the place, making making himself the head of the table. Even his wife basically is just there to back him up when needed. Paige of course also defends him by assuring her parents it was her idea, but she's obviously hanging on his every word as well.

[stillshimpy]

That's a really good point about Tim and Paige focusing on each other.  I don't think it will turn out that he's trying to seduce her (at least I hope they don't go down that road), but rather that he clearly really likes either the feeling of having his own disciple and that he's almost in the parental role of instructing her...at the family dinner table.  

 

It also struck me as odd that Super Soviet Elizabeth would say something as sexist as "Who wears the pants in that relationship?"  but I think she was just taking jabs at Phillip to take jabs at Phillip vs. truly espousing that much gender bias.  

[Umbelina]

Back to Zenaida.  I'm sure that it was prearranged that anytime there is a bathroom nearby?  Check it.

 

Again, the thing with her purse might have been a signal.  Something about that seemed to bother Stan and the scene made rather a big deal out of Zinaida forgetting her purse at the table and then doubling back for it. 

Or she was picking up a bug to plant, any number of things.  Instructions, a weapon (drugs or powder.)  A bug makes since, since she's all over the FBI, and going to be with so many high ranking public officials, but so does a weapon of some kind, even if it's just poison.

 

Yeah, they made Stan's reaction to the purse too obvious really.  ALL women take their purses with them to the bathroom, so that was OTT to me. 

 

I do think it would be SOP to prearrange that "If there is a bathroom in a public place, that's our drop point."  As I said, especially with male FBI escorts.  A female could say, "I'll go with you, I have to go too."   A guy?  Is screwed.

[stillshimpy]

Yeah, they made Stan's reaction to the purse too obvious really.  ALL women take their purses with them to the bathroom, so that was OTT to me.

 

But I think that's exactly why Stan had such a big reaction (for him, the dude was born to play poker) to that.  Women don't forget their purse that is on top of the table.  To be picking up something, Zinaida would have had to be able to tell them "I will be here" for something to be left for her.  So what I was suggesting was the "If I am dropping any information, I will leave my purse on top of the table, go towards the ladies room and then double back for the purse 'I forgot' " as the actual signal to someone else.  

 

I think Stan reacted because it's unusual for a woman to head towards the bathroom without automatically grabbing her purse. Zinaida was sober (although doubtlessly sugar addled) so walking away without it was the strange thing and then doubling back seemed to be the thing that caught Stan's attention.   

Or he's just already suspicious of her -- which he is -- and anything even slightly quirky or odd that she does is going to register with him and she wasn't sending signals to anyone watching her.  

Edited February 19, 2015 by stillshimpy

[La Tortuga]

I enjoyed the little moment when Phillip and Henry were talking, and Henry says, "Why are you asking about Paige?" Paige herself immediately sneaks up on a Russian spy and not only says something mildly flippant (much like her mom sometimes does), but she is wearing one of Elizabeth's shirts, too. Between that and the way Paige manipulated her parents, I was impressed with what they're doing with her character.

 

I was less than impressed (though not surprised) with Pastor Tim feeling the need to "discuss" Paige's baptism with her parents. It's a very odd thing, but churches require parental permission to baptize a minor but not to accept large amounts of money from her.

[Chaos Theory]

So it has come down to this.  Playing shadow games with teenagers....and losing.  Wouldn't that be a fun story?    Elizabeth and Philip are sure that Paige is playing them in some master plan sort of way but she is just being a straight up American teenager.  The master spies losing the cold war.....to an american teenager.  

Edited February 19, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[Andromeda]

Ugh, that Baby Soft ad! It's still offensive, after all these years. I remember seeing that ad on TV when I was...I would have been a teenager. Basically the target demo for the product, but I was disgusted by the infantilizing of the model in the ad. Yuck. My husband had never seen it before, and didn't realize it was a real commercial that used to play.

 

I'm amazed how patient Paige's parents are with her churchiness, considering their atheistic outlook. But then, they never share any of their beliefs with her, which is why I can't even imagine how they'd begin to bring her into the fold. It'd be one thing if she already knew they were communist-leaning, but they don't share that with her (understandable, if she blabbed about it to anyone who got suspicious), but how Elizabeth can even imagine an American born and bred girl will suddenly become pro-Soviet enough to do the work is beyond me. It'll be interesting to see.

[stillshimpy]

Elizabeth and Philip are sure that Paige is playing them in some master plan sort of way but she is just being a straight up American teenager.

 

That and in particular Elizabeth's "She set us up" was at least a little paranoid without a likely cause.  Elizabeth has been going to church with Paige and stuffing envelopes and allegedly being all "I will share in this experience and smile during services, as I sing hymns for I am down with this religious stuff now" ...so why would Paige think that they would so fully flip out about her being baptized?  

 

I was less than impressed (though not surprised) with Pastor Tim feeling the need to "discuss" Paige's baptism with her parents. It's a very odd thing, but churches require parental permission to baptize a minor but not to accept large amounts of money from her

 

Well that and Phillip did already menace the living scripture out of Tim on at least one occasion, so I'm can definitely see him being from the "Oh, praise be.  Godspeed.  Uh, say you know, just a thought ...a godly one, of course, but maybe we should discuss this with your parents first?  Without any weapons present and with witnesses.  Please."  

[Helena Dax]

I think hearing that her daughter wanted go get baptized was the last straw for Elizabeth. She has to be like "wait a second, I can't talk my daughter into joining the glorious fight for freedom and equality, but this dimwit can brainwash her into his ridiculous religion? Over my dead  body." In my opinion she was so determined at the end because she saw it as "it's us or them". And of course she's  choosing "us". Elizabeth's a true believer.

 

It's easy to hate her because we know she isn't right about communism or about Paige. We know she's making a huge mistake. But in her mind, she isn't wrong. I just read an interview where Keri Russell said she sometimes tries to think of Elizabeth as someone who was working against slavery in the 19th century and  that of course she wouldn't let her own daughter  side with the slave owners.  

 

http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/02/18/the-americans-keri-russell-on-the-battle-over-paiges-fate?page=2

 

Stan is so embarrassing... Usually Sandra bores me to death too but I'd pay for watching her bitching about Stan with her friends. He's lucky Facebook and Twitter didn't exist back then.

 

Zinaida's probably another spy and I know it because no one can honestly find Stan that interesting.

 

Loved the scenes with Nina and the other girl. 

 

The stuff about Kimmy was depressing and messed up. I'm sorry for her and I'm sorry for Philip too, although he's the one with a choice. Sometimes I think Paige and Henry are the only reason he's still spying for the  USSR.       

[BW Manilowe]

I'm pretty sure he was talking about visitation time with his son.

I keep thinking the Belgian is a plant too, but then, Nina's already confessed, and I change my mind.

Yes, she got what she asked for. Complete honesty. Now we will see how she handles it. First reaction, shock and hurt, but will her EST stuff kick in, and lead to possible reconciliation eventually, or at the very least, appreciation of Stan's attempt? Or was he just getting it off his chest and on to her back, using EST as an excuse?

Yeah, and props to Stan for seeing through that.

Yeah. Visitation with his kid (I already forgot the character name, though I remember it seemed like there was supposed to be a "crush" kinda thing, or an "interest" between him & Paige in S1--Paige in him, not him into her) seems more like it.

Although by this point wouldn't you think he'd be of legal age, according to the court, & not bound by a formal custody/visitation decree as far as his parents are concerned?

Wasn't he supposed to be either 16 or 17 in S1? I'm reasonably sure he was supposed to be at least a year older than Paige.

And I'm thinking the character maybe should be a Freshman in college this season--& so not necessarily seen onscreen, for now at least. I think that's why I thought the other guy was talking about Sandra when he made the comment that could've been related to visitation.

They could write him out by having him go to college away from DC; maybe at least partly due to all the stuff going on between Stan & Sandra connected to the separation/probable divorce (even if Stan doesn't want 1).

[Umbelina]

Nothing is formal yet, Stan isn't even divorced.  It seems to be something they worked out to ensure Stan gets to spend time with his son, without the constant calls arranging it.

 

"you can have him XXX"

[SilvaVocat]

Sometimes I think Paige and Henry are the only reason he's still spying for the  USSR.       

If Philip could get Elizabeth to agree, he'd pack the kids up and go into hiding somewhere in America's heartland in less time than it takes you to say Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

[Umbelina]

I think so too. 

 

Also, this is the 80s.  So dissent and disagreement about USA policies, and even democracy and capitalism was hardly a taboo subject.  Neither was religion.  Why didn't they just naturally "groom" their kids a little on their own while they were growing up?

 

Hell, TALK about Vietnam, talk about why they are atheists, they would be average parents to express frustration of US politics, or horror about the stealth program, or wars.  There are plenty of Americans their age who participated in Moratoriums against the war, or were not mainstream Christians.  This is after the 60's and 70's where demonstrations against war, walks for equal rights were common.  I'm not saying full on indoctrination, and I do realize they would have to be careful discussing these things in depth, but many would not raise any, ahem "red flags" back then.

 

Just little, subtle conversations, not full on political lectures. 

Edited February 19, 2015 by Umbelina

[paramitch]

I thought this was another strong episode, and I love the paranoia and tension that's such a constant even in unexpected scenes like Paige's birthday dinner or the diner scene.

 

Speaking of which, I love that Stan is back on the hunt -- I think he's right about Zinaida, and like others think he missed out on seeing that blinking thing in the ceiling by microseconds!  I also kind of liked his moment with Sandra because he was trying to come clean either way without getting anything in return -- to simply use the revelations about his past from EST (no matter how much bullshit the process actually is) to show her, "Look, no matter what happens, you were right, I'm sorry, and I am trying to change."

 

Also, that moment at EST when he tried to throw Philip under the bus and Philip just side-eyed him dryly without moving was absolutely hilarious. Stan doesn't know that Philip could kill him with his pinky toe (yet, anyway) but if looks could kill...

 

Do you guys think it's deliberate that the EST douche (and I love that guy and how he's almost always That Guy) and Pastor Tim kind of resemble each other? Both have similar hairstyles and haircolor -- the blonde wavy mops -- and it's really strange so I feel it's got to be deliberate, to the point where I almost confuse them from scene to scene.

 

I agree that Pastor Tim was completely focused on Paige at the dinner, and that this was later mirrored by Philip with Kimmy and her friends. I can't help but feel for Elizabeth and Philip at the dinner -- they know exactly how easy it is to manipulate a teenager (poor Philip at the moment all too well), yet nothing they see is tangible enough for them to point out to Paige. And the guy does totally squick me out. There is definitely something wrong going on there somewhere -- not necessarily sexual, but something. Ever since they took Paige's money I've felt that they're definitely going to be revealed as crooked. They're just too invasive, too pushy, too much. 

 

I agree with those who find Elizabeth frustrating and blind, yet so fascinating. She really only sees her daughter as an extension of herself, and she doesn't realize how absolutely badly this whole thing is going to go. Elizabeth seems to think she can hand an identity to Paige on a silver platter and say, "Here you go! This is who you are! Now you have a purpose in life beyond that silly church stuff! Now you won't be mad at us anymore and will love us forever!" I'm really waiting to see Philip vindicated here, with both Elizabeth and with Gabriel their handler on the issue -- he's right and they are just so wrong, and so naive to think this is going to work.

 

Meanwhile, I loved the moment when Nina's "nightmare" subterfuge worked a little too well, and her cellmate not only embraced her tightly but then caressed her face. If you look carefully at that moment, you can literally see Nina go through the following:

 

THEATRICAL WEEPING!

YAY, IT'S WORKING!

LOUDER WEEPING WITH TRIUMPHANT EXPRESSION!

HUH?

OKAY. HMMM... NO PROBLEM. KEEP SNIFFLING.

 

It was just beautifully acted at every moment, and cracked me up -- which was great, since that final scene of Philip having to move one step forward in potentially seducing Kimmy bothered me so much I could barely look. The only saving grace was that we could see in Philip's own eyes how much it was bothering him (Matthew Rhys is a fantastic actor).

Edited February 19, 2015 by paramitch

[Umbelina]

Do you guys think it's deliberate that the EST douche (and I love that guy and how he's almost always That Guy) and Pastor Tim kind of resemble each other? Both have similar hairstyles and haircolor -- the blonde wavy mops -- and it's really strange so I feel it's got to be deliberate, to the point where I almost confuse them from scene to scene.

 

 

Not sure, but I thought it was the same guy!  A couple of times! 

 

I agree that Pastor Tim was completely focused on Paige at the dinner, and that this was later mirrored by Philip with Kimmy and her friends. I can't help but feel for Elizabeth and Philip at the dinner -- they know exactly how easy it is to manipulate a teenager (poor Philip at the moment all too well), yet nothing they see is tangible enough for them to point out to Paige. And the guy does totally squick me out. There is definitely something wrong going on there somewhere -- not necessarily sexual, but something. Ever since they took Paige's money I've felt that they're definitely going to be revealed as crooked. They're just too invasive, too pushy, too much.

 

 

It was denied in blogs, but I always thought there was something seriously fishy about the way Paige was picked up on that bus.  Maybe hunky trainee guy is a red herring as far as the KGB and Paige's future, and it really is Church guy after all?  Probably not, but it's still nagging at me.

 

Meanwhile, I loved the moment when Nina's "nightmare" subterfuge worked a little too well, and her cellmate not only embraced her tightly but then caressed her face. If you look carefully at that moment, you can literally see Nina go through the following:

THEATRICAL WEEPING!

YAY, IT'S WORKING!

LOUDER WEEPING WITH TRIUMPHANT EXPRESSION!

HUH?

OKAY. HMMM... NO PROBLEM. KEEP SNIFFLING.

It was just beautifully acted at every moment, and cracked me up -- which was great, since that final scene of Philip having to move one step forward in potentially seducing Kimmy bothered me so much I could barely look. The only saving grace was that we could see in Philip's own eyes how much it was bothering him (Matthew Rhys is a fantastic actor).

 

 

Totally agree with all of that.

 

Also, Zinaida is much too chipper to be a real soviet.  I know that's a vast generalization, but she just doesn't read as "real" to me.  Maybe it's just because I've met Russians from that era, and just out of Russia.  There is a drollness, a lack of trust, somehow kind of a darkness that hangs over them, and no one would be so naive as to have NO fear that they are completely "safe" after DEFECTING and bad mouthing the USSR!  No wonder Stan's antenna went off.  Also, the humor, the smiling all the time just reads "off."  I admit, I'm generalizing, and that's bad.  Still, the Russian humor I know is pretty dark, the whole wide eyed innocence act seems off.  Innocence was gone back in Czar days, then they had Stalin, WWII, food shortages, absolute control of their lives by KGB/gov.  and all the rest. 

Edited February 20, 2015 by Umbelina

[VCRTracking]

Nina(probably): "Everytime I'm out, they PULL ME BACK IN!"

[sistermagpie]

Ever since they took Paige's money I've felt that they're definitely going to be revealed as crooked. They're just too invasive, too pushy, too much.

 

 

It was denied in blogs, but I always thought there was something seriously fishy about the way Paige was picked up on that bus.  Maybe hunky trainee guy is a red herring as far as the KGB and Paige's future, and it really is Church guy after all?  Probably not, but it's still nagging at me.

 

 

I don't think it was actually fishy, but I'll be disappointed if there's no payoff to this. I mean, I think Kelly really was just a girl in the youth group and the way it all seems fishy is that people out to recruit teenagers for church are just as fishy as people out to recruit teenagers to whatever else. But I really do think that Pastor Tim has been objectively shown to be sketchy. Not in an outright "I'm sleeping with my charges" way (although I would completely buy it from him, though I think it would be too on the nose to be credible) or a "I'm embezzling money way") but just in a way that he's got a lot less character than appears to a kid like Paige. He's just so good at striking heroic poses for kids and basking in their adoration while surrounded by so many characters who actually get their hands dirty. And in this ep, like I said, we've got him totally acting like Jim with Paige, and the pairing of the names Jim/Tim/(Kimmy) and then him looking just like the EST guy. Plus all three of those floppy-haired guys are in the episode so it's hard not to see them as paralleled. 

 

Plus Paige has thrown herself so completely in with him and his wife and all after they took all that money from her and never admitted this was a bad thing. And the result of that is mostly that Paige is now quick to make sure that her parents know that it was all her idea and not Pastor Tim's idea at all, just because they've been discussing it and he's teaching her about it doesn't mean he gave her the idea at all. Tim is definitely out for however much he can get with Paige. That's not as much as the Centre wants but he'd certainly be happy for her to be his disciple forever,

 

Also, Zinaida is much too chipper to be a real soviet.  I know that's a vast generalization, but she just doesn't read as "real" to me.  Maybe it's just because I've met Russians from that era, and just out of Russia.  There is a drollness, a lack of trust, somehow kind of a darkness that hangs over them, and no one would be so naive as to have NO fear that they are completely "safe" after DEFECTING and bad mouthing the USSR!

 

 

I think you're really right about this. Chipper is the word for it. Compare her "It's just so unbelievable that somebody would want to kill me!" to Philip in season 1 saying, "How can they just let their scientists walk around like that?" Even Philip's silly dad stuff has a muted quality and his smiles are often a little tight and unsure when not directed as his family. And like you said--she defected! And defected from an important place! And is on a big tour to badmouth a war that our Russian characters are very emotional about.

 

I think it makes a lot of sense for Stan to be the one who's right about this woman. It's IC for him to pick up on the signs and he needs to do something to establish himself as valuable at work. And catch a Russian spy who isn't a Jennings.

[stillshimpy]

There is a drollness, a lack of trust, somehow kind of a darkness that hangs over them, and no one would be so naive as to have NO fear that they are completely "safe" after DEFECTING and bad mouthing the USSR!

 

Fully agreed and I don't want to speak in sweeping stereotypes either, but the Soviets due to some completely understandable circumstances, could not be described as a merry bunch unless one was going for the irony hit.  Then complete faith in a government, any government, with that level  of trust and eagerness to please for a Soviet worker from one of their ministries?  I am not trying to speak in cliches, but they were a very guarded people for good, freaking reason and the people working for any of the governmental agencies studying the West would, again, not be quite so "Tra la la! Candy! Oh, I love all this food and I smile constantly (and it's totally not because I was in anyway drilled that Americans smile, when they aren't actively grinning, upbeat capitalist running dogs) , I can barely conceal my wonderment at all things, and I wear my heart on my sleeve with great candor.  As you do.  When you work for agencies stuffed lousy with those giddy comrades from the KGB.  I may soon burst into song."  

 

For one thing, it's impossible to buy that this Golden Retriever of a Woman, all wags and earnest desire to be loved,  in sensible shoes and a drab suit managed to be guarded enough to pull off defecting.  

 

And she'd be scared, because another thing Soviet Russia excelled at?  Making sure that under all the party lines, people were actually too freaked out and afraid to step out-of-line.   

 

I don't know that there was anything in that ceiling, but Zinaida's Kid at Disneyland act just rings false to me.  

 

 

 

There is definitely something wrong going on there somewhere -- not necessarily sexual, but something. Ever since they took Paige's money I've felt that they're definitely going to be revealed as crooked. They're just too invasive, too pushy, too much.

 

Yeah, they are creepy in that Godspell spouting kind of way, but I don't think they are actually supposed to be crooked.  The whole "let me bring you the word and save you from eternal damnation" church movement of that time period was too invasive, too pushy and too much.  Glad-handing, super happy, try to insert Jesus into every conversation, there's an inherent disrespect to the beliefs and comfort level of other people involved in that.  

 

I really hope that's just what the show is trying to convey, rather than taking the easy way out with it and making him a charlatan.  Last season when Phillip confronted Tim at the church, he really just seemed like a true believer and zealots are a bit too much (speaking in generalizations yet again).   

I think if anything EST guy, Pastor Tim, Elizabeth's Zeal are all related things.  Absolute conviction in the rightness of your cause or your beliefs is a little too much in any iteration. 

Edited February 20, 2015 by stillshimpy

[RedHawk]

Hell, TALK about Vietnam, talk about why they are atheists, they would be average parents to express frustration of US politics, or horror about the stealth program, or wars.  There are plenty of Americans their age who participated in Moratoriums against the war, or were not mainstream Christians.

 

 

I wondered about that also. Could it be because P&E were so immersed in their "work" and basically had no friends to show them an example of how parents in the U.S. chatted with kids about political topics and religion? They have raised their kids with a sort of benign neglect that's been ok, but yeah, they never seem to have discussed current events over the dinner table. I mean, Brezhnev's death would have been a chance to bring up the USSR and "what might happen next there?" and open a dialogue about the political system. 

 

I wonder what kind of church Paige is getting into. It's clearly not a fundamental church like traditional Baptist, Methodist, or even Presbyterian. It may be Episcopalian, one of the more progressive congregations that tried to be "hip" starting in the '70s. My feeling is it's more of an evangelical, leftist church that doesn't quite follow any of the established denominations, and thus it has that odd "cult" feeling we're picking up on. 

 

Yeah, they are creepy in that Godspell spouting kind of way, but I don't think they are actually supposed to be crooked.  The whole "let me bring you the word and save you from eternal damnation" church movement of that time period was too invasive, too pushy and too much.  Glad-handing, super happy, try to insert Jesus into every conversation, there's an inherent disrespect to the beliefs and comfort level of other people involved in that.

 

 

I agree with you, StillShimpy.  I'd like it if Pastor Tim is just one of those creepy religious true believer types and has no deeper agenda than to convert Paige, bring her deeper into the church's activities, and have her look up to him. (Kinda like what The Centre wants from Paige, huh?) Those sorts of churches rose up in the late '60 and early '70s in response to people, especially young people, shunning the older, traditional churches. Folk music, a new, more modern translation of the Bible, leftist political action, blue jeans at Sunday service, etc. A neighbor couple who live near me are lovely people in their 70s and are leaders of a church just like this. I can actually imagine the husband being very much like Pastor Tim in the early '80s. Fine guy, true believer, deeply faithful, and always (to me) has that weird light shining in his eyes that is ever so slightly creepy.

 

Edited February 20, 2015 by RedHawk

[Umbelina]

A tad off topic, but just to illustrate the paranoid factor I'm talking about.

 

My brother happened to make friends with a Russian defector (about a year before the soviet union failed.)  Because I studied Russian in school, he introduced us.  At first by phone because we were in different states, later, in person.  Long story (and a fascinating one if I do say so myself) short.

 

My brother was trying to learn a few Russian phrases.  His accent was horrible, just atrocious, and of course, he knew none of the complicated grammar.  He couldn't even say his friend's name properly.  The Russian was a horrible driver, he'd never had a car, but he insisted on driving, always in 2nd gear, he couldn't shift.  So he kept ruining cars.  Over a few months I carefully rehearsed my brother on one simple but perfectly pronounced phrase.  Believe me when I say, this took forever, he has no gift for nuances in language.

 

The Russian, to his credit, learned English very quickly, and in general would ONLY speak English once he got here.  He spoke 6 other languages.

 

So one day when they were driving somewhere, the Russian stumbled over something he was trying to say in English.  My brother pulled out the phrase, which was something like, "God ___, your English is atrocious.  Let's just speak in Russian from now on."  Well, he drove the car off the road, he was suddenly so frightened that this guy he'd been friends with for months might be a Russian spy, and about to kill him, or an American spy about use him for something.

 

After a few minutes of shock, my brother started laughing.  The Russian finally choked out, "It was your sister!  Your sister did this!"  Both relief and fury.

 

So, yeah, I have a hard time believing any Russian defector back then seriously felt safe just because they were here.

 

/off topic

 

Zinaida just doesn't ring true, and good for Stan, and for them showing that someone in the FBI is thinking.  They are due for a win.

[terrymct]

Also, Zinaida is much too chipper to be a real soviet.  I know that's a vast generalization, but she just doesn't read as "real" to me. 

I keep wondering how a Soviet expert on the U.S. and Canada could know so little about the U.S.. Wouldn't they talk about life in the US in that North American institute, even if only to negatively compare it to the USSR?

[Chaos Theory]

The Paige and religion thing payoff may simply be that Pastor Tim is a zealot (a true believer) in his religion which makes him a genuine threat to the Jennings and their plans for Paige.  Hell Elizabeth is a dyed-in-the-wool communist so having her daughter be a christian in itself would be major blow to her ego.  If anything I think the Jennings are going to see Pastor Tim as a threat to Paige (and a lesser extent them) or more likely their influence over Paige which means he will have to be dealt with; Guilty of any Shenanigans or not.  I would actually find it more interesting if he was innocent (or mostly innocent) of anything serious,  Make Pastor Tim a religious zealot.  Not a criminal.

 

 

>----Edited to add episode in the yearly battle for most awkward family meal of the year.  

Edited February 20, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[La Tortuga]

I'm liking the Zinaida story line, not just because it's fascinating, but because it helps alleviate one of the problems with this show: the FBI's constant missteps. They (and the CIA) are portrayed as far less competent than the Soviet spies; last week they were literally driving in circles for hours trying to catch Elizabeth instead of just boxing her in and yanking her out of the damn car. The FBI really does need some successes this season if we're to believe the US is the country that "won" the Cold War.

[stillshimpy]

The FBI really does need some successes this season if we're to believe the US is the country that "won" the Cold War.

 

Hear, hear! The KGB has been portrayed as being ruthlessly efficient and damned near infallible whereas the FBI has a competence level roughly equivalent to a cat trying to catch a laser pointer.  Just as easily fooled and slow to learn.  

[ruby24]

I really want Philip to defect to save his kids and somehow be forced to work against Elizabeth with the FBI or something. I can totally see that happening and I'd love it.

 

I can't stand Elizabeth, and Philip is the far more interesting character anyway.

[sistermagpie]

The Paige and religion thing payoff may simply be that Pastor Tim is a zealot (a true believer) in his religion which makes him a genuine threat to the Jennings and their plans for Paige.

 

 

I can see that aspect already, but I mean a payoff to what to me looks like some genuine issues with the guy.  I don't see clues of an actual scandal like the guy seducing girls or embezzling money, but there's a reason this guy's big with teen youth groups. It's hard for me to imagine an adult looking up to him the way a 14 year old girl like Paige does. He seems begging to be outgrown.

[NeelyO]

Umbelina

Was there something under that ceiling that Stan missed?  I thought something looked odd on the far right.

I thought I saw something as well. I also thought Stan saw it--he looked right at it --but since he didn't go back up to get it or look at it again, I figured I imagined something. To me, it looked like an electronic device with lights. Can't think what it might really have been.

[RedHawk]

I really want Philip to defect to save his kids and somehow be forced to work against Elizabeth with the FBI or something. I can totally see that happening and I'd love it.

 

 

Yeah, I'd be fine with that. I don't have to have a happily ever after with Philizabeth, and it would be an ending that pushed boundaries of the expected.

 

However, that doesn't mean I'm ready for, "Hey, kids, meet Martha, your new stepmom!" 

 

I would, on the other hand, enjoy seeing Stan and Phillip open a country-music bar together somewhere in Texas, Austin perhaps, where Phillip can wear his cowboy boots and drive his bitchin' Camaro. If Stan wants this to happen, though, he needs to not ever again try to throw Phillip under the bus in EST meetings! I really liked that moment because it kinda showed their level of friendship. So weird how those two "friends" trust each other. Stan realizing that Phillip has betrayed him might one day break my heart for both of them.

Edited February 20, 2015 by RedHawk

[DrSpaceman]

I really want Philip to defect to save his kids and somehow be forced to work against Elizabeth with the FBI or something. I can totally see that happening and I'd love it.

 

I can't stand Elizabeth, and Philip is the far more interesting character anyway.

Completely agree. Elizabeth is selfish and cares little about Phillip or her kids personally. Its all about making sure they all serve mother Russia as she sees fit. And she doesn't care what Phillip's opinion is on it either.

She keeps talking about how she wants Paige to "know who she is", or however she puts it. But Paige is not defined by her parents. Paige knows who she is. She is an american teenager trying to find her own path and place in this world. What she DOESN'T know is who her parents are. Elizabeth seems to view her kids lives as belonging to her and Mother Russia to do with as she sees fit for the needs of a country they have never been to or have any connection to beyond their parents being born there.

Ominous foreshadowing this episode? The line about Peter knowing Jesus was going to be killed and Jesus telling him not to stop it. I have a feeling that means someone important in that room is dying this season.

But no I don't want him running off to live with Martha.

Surprised Phillip is willing to "go there" with the relationship with the teenage girl. Thats pretty risky and creepy even for a spy.

[DrSpaceman]

I think hearing that her daughter wanted go get baptized was the last straw for Elizabeth. She has to be like "wait a second, I can't talk my daughter into joining the glorious fight for freedom and equality, but this dimwit can brainwash her into his ridiculous religion? Over my dead  body." In my opinion she was so determined at the end because she saw it as "it's us or them". And of course she's  choosing "us". Elizabeth's a true believer.

 

It's easy to hate her because we know she isn't right about communism or about Paige. We know she's making a huge mistake. But in her mind, she isn't wrong. I just read an interview where Keri Russell said she sometimes tries to think of Elizabeth as someone who was working against slavery in the 19th century and  that of course she wouldn't let her own daughter  side with the slave owners.  

 

http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/02/18/the-americans-keri-russell-on-the-battle-over-paiges-fate?page=2

 

Stan is so embarrassing... Usually Sandra bores me to death too but I'd pay for watching her bitching about Stan with her friends. He's lucky Facebook and Twitter didn't exist back then.

 

Zinaida's probably another spy and I know it because no one can honestly find Stan that interesting.

 

Loved the scenes with Nina and the other girl. 

 

The stuff about Kimmy was depressing and messed up. I'm sorry for her and I'm sorry for Philip too, although he's the one with a choice. Sometimes I think Paige and Henry are the only reason he's still spying for the  USSR.

My dislike of Elizabeth doesn't have to do with her being a communist or her choice of political beliefs. It has to do with her as a parent and as a wife, even as a partner to Phillip if not a true "wife", giving the others involved in her life little to no say in how things are down or in the major decisions in regard to how their future will be shaped. She makes decisions on her own and has little regard for the opinions of those that disagree with her.

Forcing someone into a life they don't know and denying them the choice to make their own decisions about their future is wrong in any religion, country, nationality or race.

[RedHawk]

Surprised Phillip is willing to "go there" with the relationship with the teenage girl. Thats pretty risky and creepy even for a spy.

 

 

Not that it makes it right in any way, but Kimmie is 18 so I don't quite see her in the same category as newly turned 15 Paige. Kimmie and her friends go to Georgetown, likely they are freshmen. They needed a fake I.D. saying they were 21 because the legal drinking age in DC (for beer and wine) was 18 in 1983, but in Maryland, where they were trying to get into the club, it was 21 for everything. 

 

Kimmie is young but she's legally an adult. Doesn't mean it's not skeevy.

 

Eta: Or is she? I need to rewatch but I think Phillip is the one who acted like Jim "thought" the girls were 18 and just couldn't get into a Maryland bar due to being under 21. Kimmie says, "We go to Georgetown" but I'm wondering if she was playing along to make herself seem 18. If she was a Georgetown student she likely would not be living at home.

 

Kimmie could be 16 for all I know. And that would be truly skeevy.

Edited February 20, 2015 by RedHawk

[Umbelina]

The blogs address how well the whole Kimmy thing is being done.  I love the blogs. *media thread.

Edited February 20, 2015 by Umbelina

[Luckylyn]

One thing I thought this episode revealed is that Paige is not as easy to manipulate as Elizabeth thinks.   Elizabeth has been going to church with Paige and pretending to be okay with it.   This episode shows that Paige hasn't entirely bought Elizabeth's act.  If she had, Paige would have confided her baptism plan in her mother but instead she ambushed Philip and Elizabeth at the same time.  While Elizabeth was manipulating Paige,  Paige was manipulating right back.   That girl has more stubborn in her than Elizabeth realizes.

 

Elizabeth believes what she wants so strongly that she can blind herself to things that don't fit the narrative she wants. Philip brings up reasonable objections to bringing Paige into their mess, and she just won't hear it.   It's okay for her to try to get close to Paige to try and influence her but in her mind Philip isn't allowed to also have his own bond with Paige.

 

I feel like so much attention is being given to Paige that Henry is slipping through the cracks.   I feel like he's the kid they should be worrying, about but they won't understand that until it's too late.

[RedHawk]

 It's okay for her to try to get close to Paige to try and influence her but in her mind Philip isn't allowed to also have his own bond with Paige.

 

 

I know. Screw Elizabeth for that!

 

While Elizabeth going to church is totally to get "in" with Paige and try to influence/control her, Phillip's gift seemed spontaneous and genuine. I got the impression that, despite his taste for country music, he kinda liked the Yaz song that he heard on the headphones and thought Paige would like it, too. Sure, he's trying to get close to her, but most parents who love their kids try to find ways to connect and be close. 

[shura]

I keep wondering how a Soviet expert on the U.S. and Canada could know so little about the U.S.. Wouldn't they talk about life in the US in that North American institute, even if only to negatively compare it to the USSR?

 

My understanding is that the Institute studied economic and political trends in the U.S. (and, I guess, Canada, although I have no idea why) in order to predict how the U.S. could act in response to Soviet moves or which moves it was likely to make itself. It didn't have anything to do with propaganda, it was honestly analyzing real data. I'm not sure they would talk about everyday life in the States. And the concept of "tuna melt" would most definitely never come up even if they did.

 

I am loving, by the way, how everybody is on the "Zinaida is too chipper to be for real" bandwagon now. Two weeks ago the consensus seemed to be that it's totally normal to have a public orgasm over a Milky Way, it's a Russian thing, plus Milky Way is genuinely awesome, nothing to be suspicious about  :). And I do want to see Zinaida burst into that song. I bet she could do a fantastic "The Sound of Music".

 

I thought I saw something as well. I also thought Stan saw it--he looked right at it --but since he didn't go back up to get it or look at it again, I figured I imagined something. To me, it looked like an electronic device with lights. Can't think what it might really have been.

 

There is a short video of that on the recap page - it looks like it's just the lighting fixture.

[Umbelina]

I fell for the candy bar scene, because "abundance" and also corn syrup addictions here in the USA.

 

One of the reviews (not sure which one, I'm marathon reading) I posted in the Media thread posed an interesting question. 

 

Something like "Who is worse, the true believer Elizabeth?  Or Philip, the guy who is just doing his job, but really doesn't seem to completely buy the whole Soviet Union is better than USA thing?"  It's an interesting question.

 

If I try to imagine this show in reverse, with them as Americans, undercover in the USSR back then, doing the same thing, would Elizabeth then be the more admirable one?  The true American, and Philip the hardened cynic who secretly loved communism?   She, trying to guide her daughter to the glories of democracy and the USA, while he just wants her to be a happy good communist?

Edited February 20, 2015 by Umbelina

[stealinghome]

I wondered about that also. Could it be because P&E were so immersed in their "work" and basically had no friends to show them an example of how parents in the U.S. chatted with kids about political topics and religion? They have raised their kids with a sort of benign neglect that's been ok, but yeah, they never seem to have discussed current events over the dinner table. I mean, Brezhnev's death would have been a chance to bring up the USSR and "what might happen next there?" and open a dialogue about the political system.

See, I actually can understand why P&E would have steered away from this kind of talk--to them, it would likely seem far too risky, because kids blab. From their perspective, all they would need would be for Paige or Henry to go to school and say to the wrong child, or within earshot of the wrong teacher, something like "My parents say the Soviet Union isn't so bad!" and their goose would be well and truly cooked. I can see where, to ultra-paranoid people used to a much more invasive government, that would seem like too big a risk to take.

 

I agree that Elizabeth is totally blind, deaf, and dumb when it comes to Paige and how that's going to blow up in her face--but that's what makes her such a fascinating character to me. Obviously ymmv, but I find Elizabeth way more interesting than Philip, and it's because I'm never sure, at any given moment, just how much Elizabeth is lying to herself as well as everyone around her. Trying to figure out all her levels of denial could be a full-time job!

[Anela]

I really want Philip to defect to save his kids and somehow be forced to work against Elizabeth with the FBI or something. I can totally see that happening and I'd love it.

 

I can't stand Elizabeth, and Philip is the far more interesting character anyway.

I would like to see this, as well. I wondered, earlier, if this would push him into defecting.

Edited February 20, 2015 by Anela

[gwhh]

Over a dead body is a good possibility here. Just not elizabeth body!

I think hearing that her daughter wanted go get baptized was the last straw for Elizabeth. She has to be like "wait a second, I can't talk my daughter into joining the glorious fight for freedom and equality, but this dimwit can brainwash her into his ridiculous religion? Over my dead  body." In my opinion she was so determined at the end because she saw it as "it's us or them". And of course she's  choosing "us". Elizabeth's a true believer.

 

It's easy to hate her because we know she isn't right about communism or about Paige. We know she's making a huge mistake. But in her mind, she isn't wrong. I just read an interview where Keri Russell said she sometimes tries to think of Elizabeth as someone who was working against slavery in the 19th century and  that of course she wouldn't let her own daughter  side with the slave owners.  

 

http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/02/18/the-americans-keri-russell-on-the-battle-over-paiges-fate?page=2

 

Stan is so embarrassing... Usually Sandra bores me to death too but I'd pay for watching her bitching about Stan with her friends. He's lucky Facebook and Twitter didn't exist back then.

 

Zinaida's probably another spy and I know it because no one can honestly find Stan that interesting.

 

Loved the scenes with Nina and the other girl. 

 

The stuff about Kimmy was depressing and messed up. I'm sorry for her and I'm sorry for Philip too, although he's the one with a choice. Sometimes I think Paige and Henry are the only reason he's still spying for the  USSR.

[VCRTracking]

I honestly never heard of Yaz(Yazoo) before. I know I've heard that "Don't Go" song before but now listening to that and "Only You", I'm hooked! Thank you show!

[methodwriter85]

I honestly never heard of Yaz(Yazoo) before. I know I've heard that "Don't Go" song before but now listening to that and "Only You", I'm hooked! Thank you show!

 

I know of "Only You" because it played in the 90's teen movie "Can't Hardly Wait" during the romantic climax between Jennifer Love Hewitt and Ethan Embry:

 

 

The soundtrack on this show is so fantastic.

Edited February 20, 2015 by methodwriter85

[soapfaninnc]

My dislike of Elizabeth doesn't have to do with her being a communist or her choice of political beliefs. It has to do with her as a parent and as a wife, even as a partner to Phillip if not a true "wife", giving the others involved in her life little to no say in how things are down or in the major decisions in regard to how their future will be shaped. She makes decisions on her own and has little regard for the opinions of those that disagree with her.

Forcing someone into a life they don't know and denying them the choice to make their own decisions about their future is wrong in any religion, country, nationality or race.

 

Exactly. It's got nothing to do with Elizabeth's devotion to communism - it's her marginalizing everyone else because she is so self absorbed. What I find comical is that she thinks she's noble and crap but she's really hugely selfish - almost narcissistic.

 

She just really treats everyone she claims to love like shit and expects them to like it.  I don't find her character compelling at all. There's no struggle that I see in her. Phillip is constantly conflicted and he does love his kids. He enjoys them. He sees them as separate people.

[sistermagpie]

As somebody who defended the Milky Way last week and also thinks ZinaIda is lying now, I just want to say I still stand by both opinions. (I was waiting for this! :-) There still is nothing immediately false about somebody taking their first bite of one and loving it and Milky Ways are still awesome. It's the constant drumbeat of all things that make her suspicious, not that Russian chocolate is great compares to them.

About Philip, I think he unfortunately always gets eclipsed by Elizabeth on the political front because she's so fanatical she practically claims the whole struggle as her thing, but I don't think Philip really doubts the greater issues that much. I think he's more just like a burnt out soldier who isn't sure this is going to work or help anyone than just doing it because it's his job. I think he can go through with the Kimmie thing as much as he can because he sees the value in it. And this is one of the traits he has he thinks Paige would be happier without so he doesn't want to give it to her himself.

I also agree him giving her the album was more honest than Elizabeth going to church. He doesn't have a specific agenda for her life. He has things he might want for her but accepts he might not get them. If he has an agenda it's that he wants her in a safer life, but she might not even choose that.

[Haleth]

For all of Elizabeth's insisting they tell Paige "who she is," since last season Paige has been yelling "THIS IS WHO I AM!" (as much as any 15yo knows who she is) but her parents aren't listening.  At least her mother isn't hearing it.  Philip may be scared to death that he has a daughter who has embraced a culture that he can't comprehend so he's working hard to keep a foothold in her life.  Elizabeth wants to manipulate her, Philip wants to hang on to his girl.

 

I can't stand Elizabeth but Keri is doing a great job portraying her.

 

During the Baby Soft commercial Philip was pretty intent on the tv.  I can't decide if he was thinking how quickly Paige is growing up (father's nightmare) or was he thinking about how young Kimmie is (only 3 years older than his daughter)?  Maybe a bit of both.  Great expression on his face when he had to cuddle.

 

Ouch.  Poor Stan in the stall.  That fall had to hurt.  Glad to see he's finally showing some smarts.  My only complaint about this show is how inept it makes the FBI.

[Crazy8]

Paige is definitely the daughter of two people who have spent their adult lives manipulating people. I'm still inclined to think Henry is the dark horse in the whole family dynamic. He's clearly smart.

[DrSpaceman]

Not that it makes it right in any way, but Kimmie is 18 so I don't quite see her in the same category as newly turned 15 Paige. Kimmie and her friends go to Georgetown, likely they are freshmen. They needed a fake I.D. saying they were 21 because the legal drinking age in DC (for beer and wine) was 18 in 1983, but in Maryland, where they were trying to get into the club, it was 21 for everything. 

 

Kimmie is young but she's legally an adult. Doesn't mean it's not skeevy.

 

Eta: Or is she? I need to rewatch but I think Phillip is the one who acted like Jim "thought" the girls were 18 and just couldn't get into a Maryland bar due to being under 21. Kimmie says, "We go to Georgetown" but I'm wondering if she was playing along to make herself seem 18. If she was a Georgetown student she likely would not be living at home.

 

Kimmie could be 16 for all I know. And that would be truly skeevy.

 

 

You're right, it does make a difference if she is 18, at least legally. 

 

And I assumed she was lying about she and her friends being 18.  I got the impression she is still in high school, like 16 or 17.  But I don't know that it has been stated for sure. 

Also the reason Paige connected with the church group is because she found people that would listen to her and take a genuine interest in her, would spend time with her.  It doesn't seem her parents, especially Elizabeth, have ever genuinely done that.  Part of that is there job, they work a lot, they can't always be home with her, but as others have pointed out, it seems basically Paige and Henry raise themselves with little supervision. 

 

Paige just blindly followed a friend she met on a long bus trip wherever she was going and found a group of friends.  My guess is that could have been any group and she would have fallen into it and become friends with them.  Could have been far worse than a church group.  In fact it shocked and amused me a bit to find out she was sneaking out at first to go to .......church.  Not the typical teenage rebellion. 

 

And I don't think the pastor is creepy.  He is just as genuine in his beliefs as Elizabeth is with her.  He just doens't have to hide them. 

[pasdetrois]

 

DC and Georgetown in the 80s -- there was nothing like it, and I loved every minute of it,

We used to roller skate all over downtown DC after the bars closed. There would be a dozen of us skating and clowning around on M Street at 2am - it was a fad (remember Linda Ronstadt wearing skates on one of her album covers?). DC cops would cruise by and lazily wave hello.

 

Those long-haired older creepy guys were everywhere, taking advantage of the liberated (The Pill!) young women and the abundance of booze and marijuana (and for some, cocaine). Rhys is killin' it as this character, with its juxtaposition to the Paige character. Elizabeth's character is more one-note.

 

There were also a lot of long-haired, handsome young pastors and radical priests. Kids flocked to them because their 50s parents were so rigid and uptight.

 

I remember that disturbing Baby Soft commercial. But for the life of me I do not remember Yaz.

 

I want Agent Beeman back on the case! Because the actor is too damn good for this EST nonsense. Zinalda resembles a demented Disney character and the portrayal is jarring. I thought she retrieved something from the bathroom, or left something there. I even wondered if candy bar machines are the drop stations.

 

I guess the wife's new residence is supposed to be on the Chesapeake Bay? I could hear waves crashing, so maybe an Atlantic beach?

Edited February 20, 2015 by pasdetrois