S03.E02: Baggage

[scrb]

Nina faked it with the Resident and she started faking it with Stan.

 

Now she tells Oleg's father, who may be able to free her, that she didn't "pretend" with Oleg?

 

Yeah like someone already said, her best shot might be to pretend with poppy.

[BetyBee]

When Oleg pulled the gun on Stan, I was so disappointed...because I feared it would be the end of the Oleg character!  I suspect we are supposed to think of Stan as a good guy, a hero - but I can't stand the guy. I agree with soapfaninc that he's a lousy husband, a lousy agent, etc. I have some sympathy for him, because I think he knows what a failure he is.  Anyway, I was really relieved that Oleg chose not to shoot him. 

 

Putting Annelise in the suitcase was a truly disgusting scene and looking away didn't help because the sound was seriously disturbing.

 

I love this show and I can't wait to see what Phillip and Elizabeth decide to do about Paige. sometimes I wonder if the Pastor is the one who is grooming Elizabeth for joining the family business. The girl on the bus who originally led her to that church always seemed like a plant to me.  Wouldn't it be something if the Center is already working Paige without their consent?

[Haleth]

she will literally be Death by Chocolate

I'm calling it now.  Phillip and Elizabeth are going to poison the defector's Milky Way.

 

The crunching was them breaking Annalise's joints, wasn't it?  I hear a similar noise when wrestling a rotisserie chicken.

 

The title of this episode is clever.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Haleth

[topanga]

 

They were NOT breaking bones to get her into the suitcase.

 

Rigor has set in and that was muscles and things like that cracking

 

Putting Annelise in the suitcase was a truly disgusting scene and looking away didn't help because the sound was seriously disturbing.

 

I think part of it was rigor, but they also had to dislocate/rearrange some of her joints to get her into the suitcase. And even as a medical professional, I had to plug my ears and say "La-la-la-la!" during the crunching sounds.  I'm sure my facial exprressions matched Yousef's.

 

I recently rewatched Season 2, but I still don't understand why Nina was sent back even though Stan delievered the Echo program to Arkady. He mentioned that she'd met with Stan twice without informing them, but she remained useful while she was working Stan. Why did Arkady decide they couldn't use her anymore?

 

--I can't remember the exact wording from S2, but Arkady told Oleg something along the lines of, "We'll see if he [stan] will deliver something to us without asking for Nina in exchange." Is that what Arkady meant when he said that Nina hadn't turned Stan? Because he classified information Stan was giving him was payment for Nina's protection?

 

--And Nina still intrigues me. I can't figure out whose team she's on.

[attica]

While watching the ep, I called shenanigans when Elizabeth rolled that suitcase into the hotel. Rolling suitcases didn't really come on the market until '87. But now I think I didn't see a full shot, so maybe E had the bag loaded onto a fold-up wheeled cart. Outrage pending.

 

Stan's awkwardness with the voice mail struck me as appropriate; that was kind of a new thing too, and it took people a while to get used to using it.

 

Hey! The actress playing Nina's cellie plays the Dutch physicist in Manhattan (the series about the a-bomb, not the Woody Allen movie.)! I like her!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

The actress playing Nina's cellie

I read that as "the actress playing Nina's cello" and I thought wait, when did Nina start playing the cello?

[sistermagpie]

I'm already referring to it as Pavlov's chocolate. I'll bet a ruble that once the Russians spot her weakness, she will literally be Death by Chocolate.

 

 

I think you mean Chekhov's chocolate. Unless you mean she drools whenever she sees the Milky Way--which I guess is accurate too! :-)

 

I love this show and I can't wait to see what Phillip and Elizabeth decide to do about Paige. sometimes I wonder if the Pastor is the one who is grooming Elizabeth for joining the family business. The girl on the bus who originally led her to that church always seemed like a plant to me.  Wouldn't it be something if the Center is already working Paige without their consent?

 

 

She was a plant--but for the church and the youth group, not the KGB. Or okay, not really a plant. She wasn't put on the bus knowing that Paige would be there. She was exactly what she said she was, a girl who took the bus a lot to shuttle between her parents. Churches proselytize and recruit people. Of course a kid in that youth group is going to start chatting up another person on the bus and suggest she talk to people who "get it." Once there, if she's into it, Paige will be recruited to spread the word...of God. Pastor Tim wants people to be Christian and get involved in politics based on how he interprets the message of Jesus. He runs mission trips to other countries to spread Christian charity. Nothing about this supports the KGB. If he had anything to do with the KGB it would probably be to sneak Bibles into the USSR to support the Christians there in their hope of overthrowing their atheistic overlords and reviving Russian Christianity (even better if they decide to be Protestants instead of the traditional Eastern Orthodox). 

 

This is a world full of competing philosophies and faith. Pastor Tim isn't the first Christian to pit his God against the KGB. Viola wound up telling on Philip and Elizabeth for the same reason. She even listened to a sermon that described God as "my sword and shield" (sword and shield also being the symbols of the KGB). 

 

I recently rewatched Season 2, but I still don't understand why Nina was sent back even though Stan delievered the Echo program to Arkady.

 

 

Stan *didn't* deliver the Echo program to Arkady. Therefore Nina failed to make up for her earlier betrayal and was sent home.

[Zhenya93]

I've always felt that Philip grew up in a Russian intelligentsia family—perhaps one of writers, musicians, professors,etc in Leningrad and then became an orphan through the later stages of the purge or Siege. Maybe I'm just projecting since I expect the character to be more cultured knowing that the actor is British,LOL, but I've felt this way about Philip from almost the very beginning. I can't believe how long they have kept us waiting with his storyline!

[sistermagpie]

I've always felt that Philip grew up in a Russian intelligentsia family—perhaps one of writers, musicians, professors,etc in Leningrad and then became an orphan through the later stages of the purge or Siege. Maybe I'm just projecting since I expect the character to be more cultured knowing that the actor is British,LOL, but I've felt this way about Philip from almost the very beginning. I can't believe how long they have kept us waiting with his storyline!

 

 

 

Commenting in the Philip thread. Though one correction is he's from Tobolsk in Siberia, not Leningrad.

[Zhenya93]

Aha! I completely forgot about that, I'm convinced his family or one family member got sent to a gulag near Tobolsk and the family relocated. 

[Umbelina]

The suitcase didn't have wheels, it was on one of those luggage mover wheelie things. 

[Milburn Stone]

The crunching was them breaking Annalise's joints, wasn't it?  I hear a similar noise when wrestling a rotisserie chicken.

 

Maybe a close-miked rotisserie chicken was how the sound man got the effect. :)

[SmoothCriminal]

I've always felt that Philip grew up in a Russian intelligentsia family—perhaps one of writers, musicians, professors,etc in Leningrad and then became an orphan through the later stages of the purge or Siege. Maybe I'm just projecting since I expect the character to be more cultured knowing that the actor is British,LOL, but I've felt this way about Philip from almost the very beginning. I can't believe how long they have kept us waiting with his storyline!

 



You must have read my mind. That's what I've always thought about Philip's past. He might be disillusioned about the KGB and maybe even The Cause, but he is still a Russian patriot. Every time the topic of Russians dying comes up, he becomes visibly upset. That wouldn't be surprising if he is a few years older than Elizabeth and actually has memories of the unbelievable suffering in Russia during WWII. I don't know about the intelligentsia thing, but one thing that struck out to me in S1 was when Stan brought over some expensive caviar. Philip expertly cut up a plate to eat with the caviar and shared it with Elizabeth. She said she has never tried it because her family couldn't afford it. Philip of course, didn't reply anything. Then again, maybe all Russians know how and with what to eat caviar. Personally I don't, so maybe that's why it stuck out to me.

 

 

Commenting in the Philip thread. Though one correction is he's from Tobolsk in Siberia, not Leningrad.

 

 

Isn't it possible that Philip was the only one of his family to survive the siege of Leningrad and was then evacuated to live in an orphanage in Tobolsk? In Germany, there was something called "Kinderlandverschickung". Lots of children were evacuated from the cities, which were bombed by allied air planes, to live in the countryside where it was more safe. Maybe the Soviets had something similar.

[Umbelina]

I don't think it's unusual to love your country but not the government.  Or to miss it, while recognizing the issues it has, when you are living elsewhere. 

 

It's nice to know that we have so much more to learn about Phillip.  It made me google Tobolsk and it's kind of a beautiful place, not my original idea when I heard "Siberia" at all.  Was Elizabeth from Moscow or do we know? 

 

It was interesting to hear Phillip tell Elizabeth that traveling back to Russia to visit her mom would be no problem.

 

I hope the Milky Ways loving woman isn't just fodder.  I'm kind of enjoying her naive ideas about safety from the KGB since she finally made it out.  It makes me wonder about her life there, that she isn't more aware of possible issues now.  I'd love to hear a bit more from her, see that side of a defector.  Someone with enough information to be valuable, yet so unaware...

[Umbelina]

Thanks, yeah, I just found it and was about to correct!  Smolensk looks like it has a long history of battles, so I feel like the whole patriotism thing would be even stronger in a place that's constantly been attacked by other countries. 

[Maire]

I must have missed this because I turned the volume down when the body cracking started but who are Phillip and Elizabeth following. ( group in bar he was taking pics of) Are they the group working in Afghanistan?

[Milburn Stone]

I hope the Milky Ways loving woman isn't just fodder. 

 

I agree. Chekhov's Milky Way is so predictable. I think it's smart of the show to create suspense by making her look like a goner, but I hope they'll do the unpredictable thing and have it turn out some other way.

[RedHawk]

Stan said they have surveillance on all the ERs and dentist offices in case someone who matches Elizabeth's description comes in for treatment, so it's dangerous for her to see a dentist because it's still only a few days post-fight.

 

 

They have people on call to dispose of bodies but they don't have dentists? Elizabeth's a travel agent. She could just get a flight to some other city and see a dentist there on an emergency basis.

I'm thinking that the biggest reason she hasn't gone to a dentist -- as far as making the show explain itself -- is that she's being stoic and that she just hasn't had time yet. 

[Umbelina]

I wonder how far an FBI alert could go back then?  I mean, we know the scope they have now, and we know they know spies can travel. 

 

She's been kind of busy since the fight. 

 

Yeah, though, I think if she told her handler she needed a dentist, something could be arranged for her.  It might be complicated though, how would they be able to ensure that dentist wouldn't eventually talk?  They would have to bring one in with equipment if they sent a KGB dentist from elsewhere.  So I don't think it would be THAT easy.

[chocolatine]

Then again, maybe all Russians know how and with what to eat caviar.

 

 

I can't speak for *all* Russians, but I think most of us do. My grandfather (who was a war orphan and NOT part of the Intelligentsia) taught me how to eat it when I was five. 

 

I must have missed this because I turned the volume down when the body cracking started but who are Phillip and Elizabeth following. ( group in bar he was taking pics of) Are they the group working in Afghanistan?

 

 

Yes, they are. After P&E finished stuffing Annelise into the suitcase they made Yousaf arrange the meeting.

[Helena Dax]

I love Elizabeth with all her flaws, but she's so wrong about Paige... I mean, I think they could try to sell her that she wouldn't be fighting against America, but helping to build a better America, with less poverty, things like that. That might work... at the beginning, at least. But Paige isn't that kind of person. I honestly think she'd eventually feel miserable.

 

The scene with Annelise was one of the most disturbing things I've seen, and I watch The Walking Dead and Hannibal. The sound creeped me out, but to  me it was worse to see her reduced to that, like a broken doll. Such a sad ending for her.

 

The dynamic between Philip and Elizabeth is fascinating. She's so cold and dangerous, yet sometimes, you're able to catch a hint of vulnerability in her. I also ike that Philip never seems to feel threatened by her as a man. He must  be used to strong women.

 

So happy to see Nina! I don't trust the other girl, though. I liked Oleg's dad. He didn't go there and start treating Nina like dirt. Obviously he was worried about his son, but it's like deep down he was thinking that a woman able to cause  that effect in Oleg had to be an interesting woman.

 

Stan's still my less favourite character and I despise  him so much that I'll hate to see him  finding out the truth about Philip and Elizabeth, which I think is bound to happen. I can root for underdogs, but Stan's too pathetic to me.                                

[scrb]

Slate has an insider's podcast with some of the people behind the scenes.

 

So for Ep 2, they were talking about the defector who came in  the crate.  They couldn't afford to have her coming in a plane so they put her in a crate but the actual details of how a Soviet defector came can't be discussed because one of the guys had actually worked for the CIA and the show would have to clear such details with the CIA first.

 

So the insiders also call the last line of the episode, where Elizabeth said her mother didn't hesitate when she was called on by her country poetic.  Or the scene was poetic, showing Elizabeth's mindset on the question of Paige.

 

But the circumstances are completely different now.  It's one thing for a war-ravaged USSR to recruit people and for people to answer the call for a great cause, which would be to defend the motherland against existential threats.  Easier to make that argument in the shadow of WWII.

 

Elizabeth is now a grown woman and has been in service for decades.  She knows the USSR really isn't threatened from external threats, including the US after the years she's lived here.  Then again, the show has shown the Soviet paranoia over what would happen after the Reagan assassination and potential coup and Star Wars.

 

She also knows the kind of personal sacrifices she's made and there have been times when she questioned whether her loyalty was being fully reciprocated.  You'd also think she'd be more reflective about the ultimate value of sacrifices like the one Annalise just made, involuntarily.  Annalise was hung-ho about the mission but obviously ill-prepared and paid for it with her life.   Elizabeth has to be thinking about whether Paige would face a similar fate.  Besides Annalise, the examples of Emmett, Leane and their daughter also have to be on her mind.

 

If she still adheres to handing over her daughter to the KGB, there's no way to make her a sympathetic character.  They can draw it out, show how she initially wanted to have Paige answer the calling, as she had done, but in the end realized the calling wasn't worthwhile and her view of the world changed as a mother.  But if she stays rigid about serving the motherland and so forth, she'd be a flawed character.

[Umbelina]

Annalise was just a little dilettante they "ran."  She thought she was working for Swedish Intelligence, right?

 

Agent

A person unofficially employed by an intelligence service, often as a source of information

 

They are expendable.  Especially when they start to tell someone about you if you are an actual spy. 

 

Cool little spy dictionary here:  http://www.spymuseum.org/education-programs/news-books-briefings/language-of-espionage/

[RedHawk]

I wonder how far an FBI alert could go back then?  I mean, we know the scope they have now, and we know they know spies can travel.

 

 

I think Stan was talking about local dentists in the metro DC area, which doesn't even seem likely to me. I can't imagine some "nationwide alert system", especially for something as common as a woman with a broken tooth, looking like maybe she'd been in a fight. Elizabeth could just drive to some town several hours away in Virginia or Maryland, go in with a plausible story, pay cash, and get treatment. Even if a dentist suspected she'd been physically abused or in a fight, well, that's what happened sometimes. He or she would not report it to the authorities. 

[bentley]

 

I think you mean Chekhov's chocolate. Unless you mean she drools whenever she sees the Milky Way--which I guess is accurate too! :-)

 

 Hee! This will teach me to post right before bedtime. 

[DrSpaceman]

So one thing that bugs me about the "second generation" storyline is they just tried to do this and ended up with a whole family killed, both the current spies and the second generation spies. Valuable assets that had been in the country for almost 20 years. You'd think maybe they would reassess things and look closely at what happened before going gung-ho into trying it again, especially with a family that is resistant to the idea in the first place.

Very cringeworthy scene with the cracking body parts put in the suitcase. Won't be forgetting that one soon.

that defector is clueless. Shockingly so......seems the Americans regret even recruiting her. Had not thought of them trying to trade her back for Nina, should be interesting to see what they do with her.

[DrSpaceman]

I love Elizabeth with all her flaws, but she's so wrong about Paige... I mean, I think they could try to sell her that she wouldn't be fighting against America, but helping to build a better America, with less poverty, things like that. That might work... at the beginning, at least. But Paige isn't that kind of person. I honestly think she'd eventually feel miserable.

The scene with Annelise was one of the most disturbing things I've seen, and I watch The Walking Dead and Hannibal. The sound creeped me out, but to me it was worse to see her reduced to that, like a broken doll. Such a sad ending for her.

The dynamic between Philip and Elizabeth is fascinating. She's so cold and dangerous, yet sometimes, you're able to catch a hint of vulnerability in her. I also ike that Philip never seems to feel threatened by her as a man. He must be used to strong women.

So happy to see Nina! I don't trust the other girl, though. I liked Oleg's dad. He didn't go there and start treating Nina like dirt. Obviously he was worried about his son, but it's like deep down he was thinking that a woman able to cause that effect in Oleg had to be an interesting woman.

Stan's still my less favourite character and I despise him so much that I'll hate to see him finding out the truth about Philip and Elizabeth, which I think is bound to happen. I can root for underdogs, but Stan's too pathetic to me.

I am not a big fan of Stan either, don't really feel for him much over his marriage. Even without the affair, his or hers, he had no real relationship with his wife. Just kind of wandered around in a daze.

But then I feel similar about Elizabeth, as I have expressed in her thread. Elizabeth just seems to have a hard time connecting with people. That in itself would just be a fact and not a bad thing, some people are that way. But then its her JOB to build relationships and trust with people, strangers, not really clear to me how she does that effectively with her personality. Phillip seems much better at it than her. But yes at least with her, unlike Stan, she has Phillip to form an odd duo with, part business partnership and part marriage, which makes it more interesting.

Edited February 7, 2015 by DrSpaceman

[madam magpie]

Count me among those who think the Belgian is a plant, Elizabeth's mother isn't dying, the candy-loving defector is going to die, and the bone/body crunching was creepy as hell.

I really don't know what to make of Elizabeth. On the one hand, I feel like her "true believer" thing I'd an act. It's too obvious. On the other, well, it's obvious.

Edited February 7, 2015 by madam magpie

[shura]

I hope the Milky Ways loving woman isn't just fodder.  I'm kind of enjoying her naive ideas about safety from the KGB since she finally made it out.  It makes me wonder about her life there, that she isn't more aware of possible issues now.  I'd love to hear a bit more from her, see that side of a defector.  Someone with enough information to be valuable, yet so unaware...

 

I don't get her either. She is savvy enough to leave a note discreetly on a US diplomat car's windshield rather than to just try to walk into the US Embassy. She is deemed valuable enough by the CIA to smuggle her out of the USSR like that. She seems to know the views of the Politburo. Clearly she is not some low-level analyst who knows nothing about how things actually work. She is nomenklatura. And yet she acts like she's never had chocolate before. Believe it or not, there was chocolate in the Soviet Union in the 1980s, even for those who were not the party elite. She shouldn't be that shocked by the experience of tasting the greatness that is nothing more than a freaking Milky Way. Is she maybe playing the FBI?

[sistermagpie]

And yet she acts like she's never had chocolate before. Believe it or not, there was chocolate in the Soviet Union in the 1980s, even for those who were not the party elite. She shouldn't be that shocked by the experience of tasting the greatness that is nothing more than a freaking Milky Way. Is she maybe playing the FBI?

 

 

There was a discussion of this elsewhere where a Soviet citizen said this was one of the most realistic part of the ep for them--that they had been that very woman having that reaction when Milky Ways came to Russia and they and their friends ate them every single day they were so popular. Not that everyone in the USSR was the same, of course, but as I took the scene (and this person seemed to confirm), it wasn't that the woman had never had chocolate--even good chocolate (much better than this) before. It was that she'd never had anything like a Milky Way. If you grow up with them they're just familiar junk food, but if you've never had a combination of milk chocolate, nougat and caramel it is a completely new thing. And sometimes the cheap stuff is more appealing than the more refined stuff. I completely admit that if offered a Milky Way vs. fine expensive chocolate, I'd go for the Milky Way.

[shura]

There was a discussion of this elsewhere where a Soviet citizen said this was one of the most realistic part of the ep for them--that they had been that very woman having that reaction when Milky Ways came to Russia and they and their friends ate them every single day they were so popular.

 

I think that may have had less to do with the taste than with the "we can now have Western stuff, so we will, every day" factor. My point is more that she almost went out of her way to show how good she thought the Milky Way was. By the way, I thought she should have at least paused at the lid on the coffee cup -  I am not sure lids like that were common in a Soviet citizen's life. But she didn't even bat an eye.

Edited February 7, 2015 by shura

[DrSpaceman]

American chocolate and candy is literally much more sweet and with a higher sugar content than in other countries, so its not a matter of whether she has had chocolate before or not. Most chocolate in american candy bars is only about 10-15% real chocolate (cacoa) and the rest is sugar and milk. (Source on this is the book salt, sugar fat and my trip to Hershey, Penn over the summer). So I think its a realistic reaction. Americans have a high sugar "bliss point" in their brains than most other nationalities, much of it learned due to more sugar in our foods.

And in regard to the defector, I think its obvious she is not that knowledgable of much insider information going on in the Soviet Union. She is not going to give them much actual intelligence. She will be used as a figurehead and propaganda piece by the US and will have little other role.

Lots of parental storylines in this one

ELizabeth and her mom and, indirectly, her real dad

Paige and her parents

The pseudoparental relationship between Elizabeth and the old russian guy whose name I don't recall

The Nina dynamic with Oleg and his father

Many of the themes seem to revolve around how much would you do for your kids? How far will you go?

THe last line, Elizabeth mentions when she told her mother about joining up to be a spy, her mother did not hesitate, which she is twisting to mean they should be the same with Paige. I think the difference is, it seems from the story last night, Elizabeth's father was a deserter, considered a traitor, and her mom probably felt guilt from this and view this as a way for the family to repay their loyalty and help untarnish their good name. OR it could be, and more likely, her mother already knew she was being recruited and was not at all shocked. It would surprise me if her mother didn't already know by the time elizabeth told her. And it surprises me elizabeth in 25 years has not figured out that fact, in retrospect.

[stillshimpy]

I love Elizabeth with all her flaws, but she's so wrong about Paige... I mean, I think they could try to sell her that she wouldn't be fighting against America, but helping to build a better America, with less poverty, things like that. That might work... at the beginning, at least. But Paige isn't that kind of person. I honestly think she'd eventually feel miserable

 

I agree, if anything I think Paige is going to end up turning Elizabeth and Philip into Stan at some point, because one of the notes this season is hitting relentlessly is the Soviet war in Afghanistan and about half of what we see Paige doing has to do with protesting missiles and nuclear devices.  She's anti-war and involved in some Prince of Peace type of evangelism. The Evangelical movements within the U.S. have gone through a lot of variations and what we think of now is not going to necessarily be what Paige is involved in.  

 

The kids I knew who decided they were "saved" in high school  (I went to high school in the '80s) were ...while still sort of obnoxiously preachy....far more the kinder, gentler variety.  Sorry to speak in such sweeping generalizations, and clearly it won't hold true for all, but every time they show Paige in the church and protesting missiles, all I can think is that Elizabeth is wildly misjudging the things that Paige values.  

 

The end scene indicated to me that Elizabeth will absolutely try to recruit Paige and urge her to "serve her country", it's just...she's not Russian, so this could be bizarre and interesting.  Elizabeth has a zealot's conviction and is weirdly not recognizing that Paige likely does too, for an entirely different cause.  

 

Okay, so this likely going to make me seem like a horrible human being, but I actually laughed at that scene where they were stuffing poor freaking Annalise into that suitcase.  It was like something out of the movie Fargo in terms of dark comedy.  I mean, everyone pitching in over the Samsonite or whatever the hell that was was the stuff of the darkest comedy.  That poor brainless, but good-hearted woman thought she was in love with that piece-of-work basically sticking her foot under his chin and cramming her broken body into luggage.  Good lord, talk about poor judgment skills.  He was freakishly calm about all of that.  

 

I also like Oleg and Nina , so I am glad that it looks like daddy Train Minister is likely to help spring her.  I did laugh at Nina's bouncin' and behavin' jail hair though.  No running water anywhere, but the woman looks only every so slightly windblown.  Sure.  

 

As for our Lady of the Chocolate obsession, I think her only value is as a marketing tool.  I am sort of heartily sick of how incredibly incompetent the CIA and the FBI is made to look in comparison to Elizabeth and Philip.  Between Stan's "I made the reservation myself, no adjoining rooms!"(because apparently a safe-house or dedicated residence is just not available?  Come the hell on here, a high profile acquisition and they stick her at the Ramada? Oh my God.  Then the  ridiculously casual "break protocol and meet me in a bar" CIA morons in Miller Central , it's just too much of a challenge to take it seriously.  

 

However, we're three seasons deep here and I keep waiting for the U.S. not to just relentlessly fuck up without pause on this show.  It's yet to happen, so I don't know why I keep hoping.  

[shura]

And in regard to the defector, I think its obvious she is not that knowledgable of much insider information going on in the Soviet Union. She is not going to give them much actual intelligence. She will be used as a figurehead and propaganda piece by the US and will have little other role.

 

She is not that useful for propaganda. She is not an artist or a scientist whose propaganda value would be the possibility to say "see, this guy is a bona fide somebody, and he thinks their system sucks."  The CIA/FBI must think she knows something of value.

Edited February 7, 2015 by shura

[sistermagpie]

She is not that useful for propaganda. She is not an artist or a scientist whose propaganda value would be the possibility to say "see, this guy is a bona fide somebody, and he thinks their system sucks."  The CIA/FBI must think she knows something of value.

 

 

Yes, or you could show that the system was oppressive to great thought or art or excellence and that's why the person wanted to get out. Great propaganda there.

 

I think the Center for American and Canadian studies is pretty important, though, so she's not useless.

 

I think that may have had less to do with the taste than with the "we can now have Western stuff, so we will, every day" factor. My point is more that she almost went out of her way to show how good she thought the Milky Way was.

 

 

They really seemed to feel it was the taste, not just the abstract notion that it was Western. And other people were sharing stories of immigrant family members going equally crazy for some kind of junk food.

 

I mean...Milky Ways really are awesome. They're not for everybody, but there's a reason they've been popular since the 1920s. The woman's reaction to her first Milky Way was not that different from my reaction when I first tried clotted cream with jam on a scone. It was a new taste that was perfect for me and it seems like a character quirk that this woman might have a sweet tooth.

 

The end scene indicated to me that Elizabeth will absolutely try to recruit Paige and urge her to "serve her country", it's just...she's not Russian, so this could be bizarre and interesting.  Elizabeth has a zealot's conviction and is weirdly not recognizing that Paige likely does too, for an entirely different cause.

 

 

Elizabeth is so cocky at this point, and seems to incapable of understanding anything about Paige except the things that she sees as just like herself that there just has to be that kind of wake up call coming. The nuclear protest does seem like a good example. Elizabeth sees it as a protest against *American* nuclear arms--the same thing she's stealing technology about in order to make sure Russia can keep up with it. If Paige criticized the Soviets for their own armaments Elizabeth would just think she was misguided and not understanding that theirs are purely defensive against the US oppressor. Plus with Paige's bad reaction to the police "not even caring" about the protest she was at, she would be pretty foolish to start supporting a police state.

[Milburn Stone]

I mean...Milky Ways really are awesome.

 

This needed to be said.

[scrb]

I don't know, she had a vending machine full of candy bars and she went for Milky Way again?

[Rickster]

On the historical nitpicky front, it's not impossible, but it is highly unlikely that an east coast suburban bar would be selling all those microbrews (Sierra Nevada, New Albion, etc.) mentioned by the waitress in 1982. They would have carried some big American Brands plus Heineken and Becks, most likely.

[Blakeston]

She is not that useful for propaganda. She is not an artist or a scientist whose propaganda value would be the possibility to say "see, this guy is a bona fide somebody, and he thinks their system sucks."  The CIA/FBI must think she knows something of value.

 

She's useful in that she's a Soviet who worked for an important Soviet institution who defected (or at least says she defected) because of the USSR's involvement in Afghanistan. That's the PR value the US seem to be looking for.

[DrSpaceman]

The Russians at the embassy did not seem all that worried about what specific information the defector was going to give to the Americans.  Seemed more worried about her appearing on the Today SHow, or whichever one it was, which is why I don't think she has a ton of critical information that will help the american cause. 

 

She seemed to me to be a mid level beaurocrat that I am sure is probably good at her job and knows some things about the inner workings of her department and their plans, but probably nothing that is going to put any lives in danger or turn the tide by itself in Russia-US relations in some way.  And she seemed more interested in escaping her prior situation than helping the american side

Edited February 8, 2015 by DrSpaceman

[gwhh]

I thought that was her from the Manhattan TV show.

While watching the ep, I called shenanigans when Elizabeth rolled that suitcase into the hotel. Rolling suitcases didn't really come on the market until '87. But now I think I didn't see a full shot, so maybe E had the bag loaded onto a fold-up wheeled cart. Outrage pending.

 

Stan's awkwardness with the voice mail struck me as appropriate; that was kind of a new thing too, and it took people a while to get used to using it.

 

Hey! The actress playing Nina's cellie plays the Dutch physicist in Manhattan (the series about the a-bomb, not the Woody Allen movie.)! I like her!

[DrSpaceman]

On the historical nitpicky front, it's not impossible, but it is highly unlikely that an east coast suburban bar would be selling all those microbrews (Sierra Nevada, New Albion, etc.) mentioned by the waitress in 1982. They would have carried some big American Brands plus Heineken and Becks, most likely.

 

 

I wasn't sure the point of that scene anyway.  Was there some meaning I missed, besides maybe just some light comedy as she had to name them all off, on her mentioning a bunch of beers to choose from before he chose? 

[gwhh]

I was thinking the same thing about the TP also. When I first saw it.

 

Wrong side of the country, sorry to say. But actually yes, ime there are always dentists willing to do work for cash and no documentation. I really don't want to see Philip have to pull out any of Elizabeth's teeth.
 
This was such a good episode but I got caught up the stupidest thing early on; Nina having toilet paper in her prison. Now, there was in fact toilet paper in the USSR, which sounds like it was about two grades above sandpaper at best, but it wasn't always available. Mostly people used the daily newspaper. They made little embroidered holders for squares (kissing swans being most popular) of the newspaper, and the reason I know so much about it is the absurd fact that my Grandmother was so anti-Soviet that she wouldn't have the newspaper in her house, so they had a worse time getting toilet paper than anyone else. But here I'm just gonna assume that in prison they don't think it's a good idea for people to wipe their asses with the faces of the country's leaders.
 
I'm surprised we didn't see Philip or Elizabeth reacting to Brezhnev's death. He was very much just a figurehead towards the end, but still. He had a long run, including most of the time Philip and Elizabeth have been in America.
 
Matthew Rhys is so good at loaded silences I got completely taken off-guard by the end of the episode, I was so sure Philip was going to offer some of his own history, finally. So mysterious that man is!
 
So, Nadezhda's mother...yikes. I liked the twist about the father being a deserter, I've heard that story more than once (although not allowed to repeat the one that happened in my own family). And sounds like the mother was fanatical all the way. This sheds some interesting light on Elizabeth's character -- maybe she's not so much a fanatic herself as simply following what she thinks of as good parenting. I always get this vibe from Elizabeth, intentional or not, that she keeps trying to be as objective and cold about her children as she can, but at the same time is fighting a powerful, primal mothers' instinct that probably wasn't in her own mother to the same degree.
 
Now to somehow make it till morning without waking up my parents to ask about Soviet Toilet Paper Distribution.

[benteen]

A question for posters of Russian descent.  I recently read a review for this episode of The Americans where the writer found the show dwelling on the chocolate thing odd as she stated Soviet-era candy was actually pretty good.  The author was either born in Russia or of Russian descent and her mother worked a summer in a Russian chocolate factory.  Was Soviet-era candy (specifically chocolate) actually that good? 

[chocolatine]

Was Soviet-era candy (specifically chocolate) actually that good?

 

In my opinion it was really good (Ptichye Moloko was my favorite). However, I remember it being a "deficit good", i.e. it was very hard to get. There were certainly no vending machines with it at offices and school cafeterias. I got to eat it a few times per year as a kid. And when we moved to Germany my family and I totally went crazy over the "new" types of candy like Snickers, Mars, Twix - and yes, Milky Way - so the defector's craving for it was believable to me.

Edited February 8, 2015 by chocolatine

[scrb]

American candy. Ars but not Belgian or Swiss chocolates?

[chocolatine]

The brightly packaged cheap stuff that was advertised on TV (which we watched a lot to improve our German) is what we attacked first. Eventually we learned the difference between the high and low end, but when we first arrived, all chocolate was good chocolate.

[Haleth]

all chocolate was good chocolate.

 

Truer words, my friend...

[PinkRibbons]

It's a funny thing about chocolate; I remember my mother sending Russian candy (made in America) back to Russia because the ones they made in New York used the same recipe but had better and richer ingredients!

[sistermagpie]

I wasn't sure the point of that scene anyway.  Was there some meaning I missed, besides maybe just some light comedy as she had to name them all off, on her mentioning a bunch of beers to choose from before he chose?

 

 

I think they were letting her go on and on so that they could casually look around the bar while it seemed like they were listening to the waitress.