S03.E02: Baggage

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Elizabeth and Philip come together to deal with a mission gone wrong, but struggle to reconcile their increasingly opposing ideologies. Stan welcomes a Soviet defector, Zinaida, to America. Nina acclimates to her new living arrangements.

 

Promo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_kyblWqDJA

[AimingforYoko]

Cute episode title. Speaking of which, Emmys all around to the Foley guys. Stuffing Annelise into that suitcase was one of the most uncomfortable scenes to watch(listen to) on the show.

[Primetimer]

While Stan minds his Soviet emigrée's safety (and his own), Philip and Elizabeth get Yousaf's problem squared away.

Read the story

[crgirl412]

The crunching was just too much.  Nice that Yousef pitched in to help. 

[Umbelina]

Oh yikes at the bone crunching.

[benteen]

Really good episode with a lot going on.  Who knew you didn't need blood to make for a disgusting scene?  That bone crunching was brutal.  Interesting insight into Elizabeth's home life but don't falter on Paige, Philip.

 

Stan really needs to get away from his job.  His life is a mess.

Edited February 5, 2015 by benteen

[SimoneS]

Too bad I knew that Oleg wasn't going to shoot Stan. He is a better man than Stan ever will be. I was glad when his wife rejected his loser ass. I hope that Oleg's father can help Nina somehow. I just love Oleg and Nina so I would love them to reunite. 

 

The bone crunching was horrible. Poor Annalise. She was unstable, but she did not deserve that death or to have her body desecrated.

 

Phillip and Elizabeth are never going to agree about Paige. Elizabeth is the true believer.  Phillip would defect tomorrow if Elizabeth would come with him, but she would never agree. I think that the Soviets are after the wrong child anyway. They should wait for Henry. His actions in that encounter with the weird guy who was going to attack Paige shows that he is far more likely to accept becoming a spy.

Edited February 5, 2015 by SimoneS

[shura]

Yousaf, you've done this folding thing before, haven't you? And of course Elizabeth took a picture. I wonder if there was an element of a con going on there on Philip and Elizabeth's part or if they simply reacted to this unexpected photo opportunity.

 

Elizabeth needs to see that $25 dentist from the previous episode thread.

 

Zinaida is kind of dumb, isn't she? "Let's go sightseeing! You think the KGB will try to kill me? Here in America?" Well, what do you think?

Edited February 5, 2015 by shura

[crgirl412]

That was a very interesting look that Philip had on his face when Elizabeth told him that she couldn't go back.  I think that he does want her to go back to see her mother but more importantly to remind her how bad it sucks there and to give her a wake up call about Paige and defecting eventually. 

[Umbelina]

I wonder if Oleg's daddy has the same taste in women as Oleg?  That may be Nina's only hope.

 

I don't think defector/candy bar loving woman is long for this world, and I think we know Elizabeth and Phillip's next assignment.

 

So, the Belgian girl...a soviet plant, a spy, or an innocent?

[dramachick]

Poor Annelise. That was one of the most disturbing things I've ever seen on television. I cringed at every crack. I was glad Philip revealed that he genuinely felt something for her beyond just losing an asset.

 

That back-story scene explained a lot about Elizabeth's uber-patriotism, and why her mother didn't blink at the prospect of her joining the KGB. Elizabeth is carrying a lot of baggage that shouldn't be hers.

 

Stan still sucks.

 

I hated to see Oleg so distraught, but I'm glad he didn't kill Stan, especially since it looks like his dad is going to try and do something for Nina. I can't believe I'm so invested in the Oleg and Nina love story!

[benteen]

Too bad I knew that Oleg wasn't going to shoot Stan. He is a better man than Stan ever will be. I was glad when his wife rejected his loser ass. I hope that Oleg's father can help Nina somehow. I just love Oleg and Nina so I would love them to reunite. 

 

The bone crunching was horrible. Poor Annalise. She was unstable, but she did not deserve that death or to have her body desecrated.

 

Phillip and Elizabeth are never going to agree about Paige. Elizabeth is the true believer.  Phillip would defect tomorrow if Elizabeth would come with him, but she would never agree. I think that the Soviets are after the wrong child anyway. They should wait for Henry. His actions in that encounter with the weird guy who was going to attack Paige shows that he is far more likely to accept becoming a spy.

 

Excellent point about Henry.  I was thinking about this the other day and remembering someone at TWOP noting that about Henry.  He assessed that situation well.  Of course no one knows about that but Paige.  Henry was also able to sneak into his vacationing neighbors home multiple times but managed to get himself caught.

 

I'm curious to see where the Paige situation goes as the USSR doesn't have much time left in it at this point.

[Blakeston]

It took a lot of chutzpah for Philip to keep telling Yousef about how wonderful Annaliese was, after he used her death for his personal advantage within about 30 seconds of it happening - and then mutilated her so that he could stuff her body in a suitcase.

[SimoneS]

So, the Belgian girl...a soviet plant, a spy, or an innocent?

 

I was wondering the same thing, but the Soviets know everything about Nina's betrayal. She has no secrets from them. She is in prison because she could not turn Stan. I could see them have Nina get info from the girl though.

[Morbs]

I missed a lot of season 2, so I thought the defector woman was going to be Elizabeth's mother, so I guess I was really off base.

[PinkRibbons]

Elizabeth needs to see that $25 dentist from the previous episode thread.

 

Wrong side of the country, sorry to say. But actually yes, ime there are always dentists willing to do work for cash and no documentation. I really don't want to see Philip have to pull out any of Elizabeth's teeth.

 

This was such a good episode but I got caught up the stupidest thing early on; Nina having toilet paper in her prison. Now, there was in fact toilet paper in the USSR, which sounds like it was about two grades above sandpaper at best, but it wasn't always available. Mostly people used the daily newspaper. They made little embroidered holders for squares (kissing swans being most popular) of the newspaper, and the reason I know so much about it is the absurd fact that my Grandmother was so anti-Soviet that she wouldn't have the newspaper in her house, so they had a worse time getting toilet paper than anyone else. But here I'm just gonna assume that in prison they don't think it's a good idea for people to wipe their asses with the faces of the country's leaders.

 

I'm surprised we didn't see Philip or Elizabeth reacting to Brezhnev's death. He was very much just a figurehead towards the end, but still. He had a long run, including most of the time Philip and Elizabeth have been in America.

 

Matthew Rhys is so good at loaded silences I got completely taken off-guard by the end of the episode, I was so sure Philip was going to offer some of his own history, finally. So mysterious that man is!

 

So, Nadezhda's mother...yikes. I liked the twist about the father being a deserter, I've heard that story more than once (although not allowed to repeat the one that happened in my own family). And sounds like the mother was fanatical all the way. This sheds some interesting light on Elizabeth's character -- maybe she's not so much a fanatic herself as simply following what she thinks of as good parenting. I always get this vibe from Elizabeth, intentional or not, that she keeps trying to be as objective and cold about her children as she can, but at the same time is fighting a powerful, primal mothers' instinct that probably wasn't in her own mother to the same degree.

 

Now to somehow make it till morning without waking up my parents to ask about Soviet Toilet Paper Distribution.

[GeorgieNY]

I also had that reaction to Nina having toilet paper? Lol.

I think that bone crunching scene may have been the most horrifying thing I have seen on TV. Yikes!

[Dusty]

My only regret..is that..I have boneitis.  RIP Annelise.

[albaniantv]

Usually I watch new episodes twice to catch things I missed on first watch. But tonight, thanks to that bone crunching suitcase scene, for the first time, I could not. 

 

Like some of the commenters, I think Henry might have more technical aptitude for spying, but the psychology of the parents and their interaction with the Center means that no matter what, attention will be focused on Paige. 

 

This show!!! I don't even like Paige but  don't want to see her sacrificed to some political concept of what the value of her life is, as parlayed between her parents and their handlers. And don't even think of coming after Henry! 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Ha, I loved the look on that guy's face when he saw Elizabeth taking a picture of him with the body. Don't worry, man! It's just for my personal scrapbook!

Edited February 5, 2015 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Peanutbuttercup]

This episode made me wonder if Stan is going to somehow trade Zinaida for Nina's safety/return. We saw him telling Oleg he wants to save her somehow. We see that Moscow/the KGB is highly concerned about the propaganda effect that Zinaida is having. But in terms of bringing knowledge to the FBI, Zinaida seems pretty worthless. She's interested in Milky Way bars and tourist sites, but so far all she's been able to tell them, I think, is the circulation of Newsweek. Which hardly seems valuable. Would Stan do something like that?

[shura]

This episode made me wonder if Stan is going to somehow trade Zinaida for Nina's safety/return.

 

I had the same thought last week, when the FBI had the meeting about Zinaida. At the end of it, Stan had this thoughtful look on his face as if he was hatching a plan of some kind. Could have been nothing, of course. But now they show her as this almost useless ditz, so maybe they are setting something up and don't want the viewers to have too much sympathy for her.

 

I almost laughed when Nina asked the guy in the cell who he was, and he replied "the Railway Minister". Of course, who else...

 

Re: finding a dentist for cash, I am actually surprised the KGB don't have a couple of sympathizing doctors or dentists. It seems like it would be useful in this line of work to have resources like that.

 

I was wondering the same thing, but the Soviets know everything about Nina's betrayal. She has no secrets from them. She is in prison because she could not turn Stan. I could see them have Nina get info from the girl though.

 

It's impossible to know whether someone has no secrets from you. I am leaning toward the Belgian girl being a plant fishing for the unknown unknowns there. I don't think she was a real foreign spy - those would probably be paraded in front of the cameras for propaganda purposes, not thrown into a decrepit cell. And I don't think she was an innocent from the streets. In the 80s, a foreign passport would go a long way toward protecting a person from being falsely accused or harassed by the authorities. The Soviets just didn't want the headache associated with that.  

Edited February 5, 2015 by shura

[SimoneS]

This episode made me wonder if Stan is going to somehow trade Zinaida for Nina's safety/return. We saw him telling Oleg he wants to save her somehow. We see that Moscow/the KGB is highly concerned about the propaganda effect that Zinaida is having. But in terms of bringing knowledge to the FBI, Zinaida seems pretty worthless. She's interested in Milky Way bars and tourist sites, but so far all she's been able to tell them, I think, is the circulation of Newsweek. Which hardly seems valuable. Would Stan do something like that?

 

This has not occurred to me. Nina seems more valuable than Zinaida because she actually has knowledge that could benefit the CIA or FBI. Also, while she wants to be free, Nina does not want to be a traitor and she loves Oleg. This would an interesting twist.

[Morgan of Hed]

I loved that there was no explicit blackmail scene. Yousef saw them snapping the picture, he knew he had to cooperate with whatever they wanted him to do, nothing need be said.

[atir]

Maybe whoever develops photos for Elizabeth could also fix her teeth! A girl can hope, heh.

[sistermagpie]

That was a very interesting look that Philip had on his face when Elizabeth told him that she couldn't go back.  I think that he does want her to go back to see her mother but more importantly to remind her how bad it sucks there and to give her a wake up call about Paige and defecting eventually.

 

 

I wondered if he was also sad at how far Elizabeth doubles down on the idea that basically no relationships matter. To him, what's the point of all their sacrifice if there's no respect for the actual bonds of family in Russia? But Elizabeth just rejects that too, like the personal relationship is never as important as her mission. She's maybe not yet dealing with her grief yet.

 

Which reminds me of Gabriel's chilling assessment of the family where Elizabeth tells him Paige thinks Philip's having an affair and he brushes it off as normal but then says, "She trusts YOU, though, right?" Iow, hey, it's actually a good thing that Paige begins to not trust her father because that way she'll be all the more open to you, the person who is manipulating her for our agenda. 

 

This episode made me wonder if Stan is going to somehow trade Zinaida for Nina's safety/return.

 

 

If Stan did that he might as well be a double agent, I think. Why would the FBI want something like that? Nina was a coerced double agent who got caught and Zinaida is a valuable Soviet Defector from a major think tank. Stan throwing her away for his girlfriend would end it for him, I imagine. 

 

This has not occurred to me. Nina seems more valuable than Zinaida because she actually has knowledge that could benefit the CIA or FBI. Also, while she wants to be free, Nina does not want to be a traitor and she loves Oleg. This would an interesting twist.

 

 

Which makes it unlikely that the FBI would believe they'd trade her. We know she's working for the Soviets but the FBI doesn't, so wouldn't they be suspicious if they were willing to give her up depending on how valuable her info was?

 

Though I think Zinaida does have valuable info. That place she works produces a lot of KGB types, I think, besides other things.

 

Matthew Rhys is so good at loaded silences I got completely taken off-guard by the end of the episode, I was so sure Philip was going to offer some of his own history, finally. So mysterious that man is!

 

 

It was such an obvious opening I was on the edge of my seat if he'd actually say something. So many possibilities for why he didn't. I think that on some level Philip's more closed up around Elizabeth because she's reminding him how untrustworthy she can be on that level. She doesn't believe in family loyalty. She thinks it's a good thing that her mother, rather than either wanting her to stay in the USSR or even just saying she'd miss her but she respects her decision, just her to go. So I feel like he doesn't want to hand her anything personal about himself she can use to manipulate him as she's blatantly manipulating Paige.

 

But also there's the possibility that there's something about his story that wouldn't help. Like for all we know he can't relate at all because, as many have speculated, he had no parents and had no one to care what he did with his life or want him to stay. One thing, though, is it's hard to believe the show wasn't intentionally lampshading the mystery with that long silent take. This in an episode that starts with a man asking Philip "Who are you?" (A question he dodges by simply saying what he needs.)

Edited February 5, 2015 by sistermagpie

[chocolatine]

That was a very interesting look that Philip had on his face when Elizabeth told him that she couldn't go back.  I think that he does want her to go back to see her mother but more importantly to remind her how bad it sucks there and to give her a wake up call about Paige and defecting eventually.

 

I thought he had a more sinister motive. IMO, deep down he's already accepted that Elizabeth would never defect or protect Paige from the KGB, and if he got her to go visit her mother for a few weeks, he could use that time to disappear with Paige and Henry. I know he loves Elizabeth, but I think he loves his children more.

 

It was such an obvious opening I was on the edge of my seat if he'd actually say something. So many possibilities for why he didn't.

 

 

I know, I was too! I wonder why Elizabeth didn't question him at all about the circumstances of his recruitment.

 

Re: toilet paper in prison, that was definitely unrealistic. I also thought the food Nina and the Belgian were served looked too good for a Soviet prison, especially the bread. 

 

I had to look away from the TV during the suitcase stuffing scene. I still heard the bone crunching (yikes!) but did not see Elizabeth taking the picture. I thought last season was graphic, but this episode topped everything. I wonder how much more TPTB will keep upping the ante in that regard.

 

In last week's episode thread someone asked whether Elizabeth's mother was getting any perks for having a daughter in the KGB. In the tape Elizabeth briefly listened to in this episode the mother said the KGB man brought her chamomile tea and "good meat", so we have our answer.

[SmoothCriminal]

Elizabeth's line "We can't go back" was a little weird. Philip suggested to bring her mother to the US (not to get Elizabeth home), so she couldn't have meant "We can't go back to Russia". More likely, she meant "We can't go back to our old lifes", because in training they were clearly instructed to never even discuss them again. So given how indoctrinated by and devoted to the KGB Elizabeth is, Philip's suggestion would seem pretty ludicrous and unrealistic to her.

 

However, I understand where Philip was coming from. He may still feel loyalty towards the Soviet Union and his fellow countrymen (as evidenced again this episode by his answer to Yousaf "MY PEOPLE are dying in Afghanistan"), but when it comes down to it, he will put his family first. He saw that his wife was hurting, wanted to make her feel better and would have gone to considerable length to do so.

 

Also, now that I think about it, Philip often uses expressions like "MY People" in relation to fellow Russians, but when it comes to the KGB he always refers to them as "They" (like this episode "THEY owe you that much"). It's like Philip is disillusioned with the organisation and knows that in the end, they wouldn't care one bit for his well being (or that of his familiy) if it conflicted with an important mission or The Cause. Yet, when the issue of Russians dying comes up (like in S2 in the Afghan restaurant or when he was told the soldiers in the submarine died), Philip gets incredibly upset. He is such a fascinating character! I want to know more about his past so badly, I literally screamed at the TV at the end of the episode when he didn't say anything back to Elizabeth. There just has to be a reason for that. I hope the writers are building up the suspence just to have some big reveals in a Philip centric episode down the road.

 

I expect great scenes between Anet Mahendru and Katja Herbers, who plays the Belgian woman. Like Anet, she had a somewhat international upbringing and speaks several languages fluently (German, Dutch, English). They seem like a good fit and the scenes at the Soviet prison had me hanging at the edge of my seat. I can't imagine where the writers are going with this, but I am excited to find out.

 

The funniest moment in this episode was in the bar! "We should do this more often" really cracked me up.

 

The most gruesome moment was of couse Annalise being stuffed in the suitcase. I had to stop eating lunch for a moment... But given that I'v been obsessed with The Walking Dead lately, I've seen worse.

 

 

[Dowel Jones]

I liked Philip's offhand comment in the bar:  "We should do this more often".  Very telling (also) about his personal realignment.  And thanks for the mention of Sierra Nevada Pale Ale (from my old hometown of Chico), but I'm not sure it would have been marketed on the East Coast in 1982.  That was some kinda beer list, and they end up with Miller Lite.  Tastes Great! (Philip).  Less Filling! (Elizabeth).

[SmoothCriminal]

I liked Philip's offhand comment in the bar:  "We should do this more often".  Very telling (also) about his personal realignment.  And thanks for the mention of Sierra Nevada Pale Ale (from my old hometown of Chico), but I'm not sure it would have been marketed on the East Coast in 1982.  That was some kinda beer list, and they end up with Miller Lite.  Tastes Great! (Philip).  Less Filling! (Elizabeth).

 

 

I barely recognized anything from the beer list. I am a 90s kid and not American, though. I take it German beer wasn't popular back then? As a German, I should be offended xD

[PinkRibbons]

Fwiw, I assumed that the way Elizabeth could see her mother would be to go to a third country and have her mother meet her there, the way Elizabeth periodically saw Zhukov in person over the years. I think it depends on what condition her mother is in at the moment and whether she's well enough to travel.

[stealinghome]

I wondered if he was also sad at how far Elizabeth doubles down on the idea that basically no relationships matter. To him, what's the point of all their sacrifice if there's no respect for the actual bonds of family in Russia? But Elizabeth just rejects that too, like the personal relationship is never as important as her mission. She's maybe not yet dealing with her grief yet.

 

It was such an obvious opening I was on the edge of my seat if he'd actually say something. So many possibilities for why he didn't. I think that on some level Philip's more closed up around Elizabeth because she's reminding him how untrustworthy she can be on that level. She doesn't believe in family loyalty. She thinks it's a good thing that her mother, rather than either wanting her to stay in the USSR or even just saying she'd miss her but she respects her decision, just her to go.

 

It's funny, I got something very different from the episode. First of all, I took Elizabeth's opening up about her mother in the office to be perhaps the first clear sign that she's truly not as gung-ho about Paige joining the KGB as she likes to pretend she is. I very much got a "my mother told me to go without a second of hesitation, so how can I sacrifice any less when I'm called on to do the same thing?" vibe from Elizabeth when she was saying that. Not that she really wants any sort of spy life for Paige, but that she can't falter in her duty now (especially because then she'd be like her disgraced father). Which is a really interesting way to think about it--that for Elizabeth, it's as much a personal test of her own loyalty and commitment to duty as anything else (which also makes total sense, because while I love the character to pieces, she's a real egotist). Which is also interesting in light of her earlier conversation with Philip when he hit her with cold hard reality. Elizabeth's deluding herself that all the Center would ever ask would be for Paige to get some cushy low-level NSA job, but it's what she keeps telling herself to make it okay, to convince herself that the KGB isn't going to use and abuse Paige--because Elizabeth also pretty clearly admitted, even if only via silence, that she doesn't want the life she and Philip lead for Paige. The "Do you want life to always be EASY??" seemed another justification--like, life is going to be hard on Paige no matter what, so why not at least let it be hard OUR way? Which, of course, Philip also destroyed. I really feel like the show has set up Elizabeth to end the season in a place where her logic begins to twist back in on itself and she has to face some cold hard truths--not just about Paige but also about her life and her mission--which I think would be fascinating to watch.

 

More broadly, for me, this episode went a long way toward explaining why Elizabeth is such a rigid, inflexible True Believer and clings so damn hard to her beliefs (not to mention why she has such trouble being a mother--clearly she didn't really have a great role model). She's a second-generation zealot, so she inherited her mother's fanaticism and all the baggage of "your father was a coward so we must never be cowards" etc that came with it--which means her fanaticism also has more cracks than her mother's. Elizabeth sounded kind of low-level upset that her mother told her to go join the KGB instantly (and how interesting is it that Ms. We Can't Break The Rules totally did when it came to asking her mom for advice? She said she was going to do it sneakily, using tradecraft, but then it sounded to me like she just spilled everything), like she was hurt that her mom didn't even pause or say "I'll miss you but...", so she's certainly felt the personal sting of the fanaticism. But because The Cause is what she's devoted her life to, what she has lost so much in the name of, Elizabeth had/has to double down on believing to justify it to herself. It's a kind of retroactive logic that says what she's given up means the the cause has to be worth it. Which is not to say that she doesn't genuinely believe in her ideals, of course, but there's a whole lot of psychological baggage working on her too.

 

All of which I think Gabriel sees/knows--and ps how much sense does it make now that Elizabeth tends to gravitate toward father figures who affirm/validate her work for the KGB?--and uses it to play her like a fiddle. It's no coincidence that he was all "Your mother is so happy and proud that you're here doing this work" in their conversation about Paige.

[soapfaninnc]

 

However, I understand where Philip was coming from. He may still feel loyalty towards the Soviet Union and his fellow countrymen (as evidenced again this episode by his answer to Yousaf "MY PEOPLE are dying in Afghanistan"), but when it comes down to it, he will put his family first. He saw that his wife was hurting, wanted to make her feel better and would have gone to considerable length to do so.

 

Also, now that I think about it, Philip often uses expressions like "MY People" in relation to fellow Russians, but when it comes to the KGB he always refers to them as "They" (like this episode "THEY owe you that much"). It's like Philip is disillusioned with the organisation and knows that in the end, they wouldn't care one bit for his well being (or that of his familiy) if it conflicted with an important mission or The Cause. Yet, when the issue of Russians dying comes up (like in S2 in the Afghan restaurant or when he was told the soldiers in the submarine died), Philip gets incredibly upset. He is such a fascinating character! I want to know more about his past so badly, I literally screamed at the TV at the end of the episode when he didn't say anything back to Elizabeth. There just has to be a reason for that. I hope the writers are building up the suspence just to have some big reveals in a Philip centric episode down the road.

 

The funniest moment in this episode was in the bar! "We should do this more often" really cracked me up.

 

The most gruesome moment was of couse Annalise being stuffed in the suitcase. I had to stop eating lunch for a moment... But given that I'v been obsessed with The Walking Dead lately, I've seen worse.

 

I think he didn't say anything because it wouldn't matter to Elizabeth. The only thing that matters to her is Mother Russia and what Elizabeth wants.  No one in their family means anything to Elizabeth as a separate person - they are all just tools for her to use in the 'cause'.  She's so delusional - she had a harsh upbringing and we believe Phillip probably has. Their daughter has had a cushy free upbringing. She hasn't stopped to think Paige doesn't have the grit to do such a job and I'm sure she wouldn't want to. I am a child of this period and the RED is bad was pretty well accepted. Even the 'liberals' believed that the Soviets were going communism wrong. 

 

The character of Elizabeth may just be the thing that causes me to turn off the show. She repulses me on so many levels. Her chastising Phillip over the Yousef thing going bad made my eyes nearly roll out of my head. Phillip is more practical - these things do happen. Elizabeth has screwed up her share of missions.  I need to see some self awareness start really soon or I'll just hope she does wind up in jail. 

 

Ditto Stan. What is his purpose? He's a lousy husband, a lousy agent, etc. I really wanted Oleg to put him out of his (and my) misery but I really like Oleg and I want to know where his and Nina's characters are going. 

 

The bone cracking was hurly worthy and stuff like that normally  doesn't bother me.

Edited February 5, 2015 by soapfaninnc

[sistermagpie]

Elizabeth's line "We can't go back" was a little weird. Philip suggested to bring her mother to the US (not to get Elizabeth home), so she couldn't have meant "We can't go back to Russia".

 

 

 

I assumed he meant the opposite. What would they do with a random, ill, Russian woman uprooted from the only home she'd ever known and plopped down in the US? It makes far more sense for Elizabeth to just go home for a visit, as real Illegals certainly did (though they don't in this universe.) I thought he genuinely meant she should to to Russia and see her mother and Elizabeth's response just echoed her mother's own past where the actual relationship between the two people existed to be sacrificed for the Cause. Philip's encouraging her to think about the emotions of personal relationships instead of the Cause but she's not having it. Just as Philip enjoyed hanging out at the bar just to hang out at the bar. Elizabeth's back in the mode of thinking stuff like that is weak.

 

Also, now that I think about it, Philip often uses expressions like "MY People" in relation to fellow Russians, but when it comes to the KGB he always refers to them as "They" (like this episode "THEY owe you that much"). It's like Philip is disillusioned with the organisation and knows that in the end, they wouldn't care one bit for his well being (or that of his familiy) if it conflicted with an important mission or The Cause.

 

 

Yes, and I feel like that's probably very representative of plenty of people like him, actually. I was reading a book recently that isn't any sort of authority on the subject, but in it a character said something similar about their own fictional Illegals. He said that those chosen wouldn't be likely to defect--not just because there was no reason to (they were being paid to live and occasional go home and report and could probably retire in the US), but because they do have a fierce patriotism and no matter how bad things get or how much things seem to be falling apart, in the end they always stand and "fight to protect their identity, their culture, their language and their motherland." I don't know how much if any this directly applies to Philip, but I like to think of him as a different type of Russian character rather than "the American one." Somebody who's less Soviet and more Russian, compared to Elizabeth. It would certainly make sense with his choices and the way he doesn't see his children as Russian.

 

He is such a fascinating character! I want to know more about his past so badly, I literally screamed at the TV at the end of the episode when he didn't say anything back to Elizabeth. There just has to be a reason for that. I hope the writers are building up the suspence just to have some big reveals in a Philip centric episode down the road.

 

 

And in an ep that starts with someone literally asking him "Who are you?" 

 

I very much got a "my mother told me to go without a second of hesitation, so how can I sacrifice any less when I'm called on to do the same thing?" vibe from Elizabeth when she was saying that.

 

 

Yes, me too. She's trying to be understood personally - and according to KR when Philip doesn't hear that and then agree with her because of it he's rejecting her personally.

 

I really feel like the show has set up Elizabeth to end the season in a place where her logic begins to twist back in on itself and she has to face some cold hard truths--not just about Paige but also about her life and her mission--which I think would be fascinating to watch.

 

 

Exactly. And frankly, even the life where Paige has a cushy CIA job and is a traitor is a terrible life.

 

and how interesting is it that Ms. We Can't Break The Rules totally did when it came to asking her mom for advice? She said she was going to do it sneakily, using tradecraft, but then it sounded to me like she just spilled everything

 

 

She always does that! It makes so much sense when she's hypocritical. She's got such high standards for herself that whenever she goes against the rules she has to convince herself how different it is and how special the circumstances are--so if somebody else wants to do the same thing it's never the same. She's always following the rules even when she's breaking the rules!

 

All of which I think Gabriel sees/knows--and ps how much sense does it make now that Elizabeth tends to gravitate toward father figures who affirm/validate her work for the KGB?--and uses it to play her like a fiddle. It's no coincidence that he was all "Your mother is so happy and proud that you're here doing this work" in their conversation about Paige.

 

 

And how creepy watching Elizabeth hand over gobs of emotional detail about the dynamics and cracks in her own family for Gabriel to use against Paige and Philip.

 

I think he didn't say anything because it wouldn't matter to Elizabeth. The only thing that matters to her is Mother Russia and what Elizabeth wants.

 

 

Also Philip is by nature very guarded (super guarded!) about his personal past and feelings, and he only opened up to Elizabeth really at all in the second season. The most open he was was when he started to tell her that story in the last ep. Now he knows where she's coming from and I think he's gone back to protecting himself around her. He'll argue about Paige and share his opinions and feelings on that but I don't think he feels safe enough to be telling her about what makes him tick. Or maybe more accurately, he's feeling so besieged that he's not thinking about it himself because that's his default mode. 

 

I think Elizabeth is absolutely going to change on this though, and become more self-aware. She's really confident about how she's handling this Paige thing and seems to have lost confidence in Philip's judgment, just plowing ahead with her own goals because he doesn't get it.

Edited February 5, 2015 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

A couple of random thoughts. 

 

Phillip choosing Miller beer.  I have no idea if "Miller" is considered a good beer now, but back in the 80's (when I occasionally had a beer) Miller was the bottom of the barrel, super cheap, watery, crappy beer.  It made me laugh.

 

I really want to see how they pulled off that whole suitcase thing!  It was a thing of absolute beauty, and whatever CGI they did was flawless.  The sounds were creepy, but having watched Breaking Bad dissolve people in acid, and, OMG the bathtub scene and mess as they wiped up random teeth, gore and blood from the floor has kind of hardened me to "ick."  Great scene though (both.)

 

I was very close friends with a defector/escapee.  He detested the government, and especially the various police, including the KGB.  He was terrified of the mafia that (still) runs the other side of things.  His back was broken in prison, later repaired with a long ruby splint, so he could keep working, massive scar.  He detested all of those people, but he loved mother Russia, and he still missed it, wanted the best for it, and hoped for change.  His family suffered from his escape, but they encouraged him to go, even knowing all they would face in retaliation. 

 

Before I met him, I was friends with an older couple that were released through some Jewish program in the eighties.  Their child and his wife (both nuclear scientists) suddenly had NO jobs, fired.  Without a job, no housing, no food, nothing.  When they lost their house, they also lost all possessions IN that house, clothes, beds, books, cooking utensils, everything.  His wife had just given birth and it was winter in Moscow.  People sheltering them risked their lives and security.  I ended up helping them negotiate with the embassy in San Francisco over several things, including the disappearing packages they tried to send.  That was a trip.  The husband was so happy to be in the USA, but so worried about his son and grandchild and daugher-in-law.  The wife was less happy, terrified to go outside, terrified of the KGB, intimidated by grocery stores with SO much food.  She had almost no English, but they were working on it.

 

Anyway, thoughts of those friends constantly come up while watching this.  The idea that anyone in the KGB would give one shit what happens to Paige, or that she's "only 14!" is laughable.  Phillip knows it.  Elizabeth is in denial.  Paige seems to be the KGB's new focus, since the other kid died.  This 2nd generation spy thing seems pretty damn important to them.  Important enough to kill Phillip if he interferes too much?  Maybe so.  They could always get Elizabeth a new partner *husband.*

 

The toilet paper mistake surprises me.  Maybe instead of former FBI and CIA advisers, they need to hire a few former Soviets, if they are going to continue to have scenes in Russia, let alone in Lefortovo. 

 

I guess things in prison their didn't improve much after the USSR fell.  http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/04/-sp-russia-prison-tatyana-gavrilova-pussy-riot

[pasdetrois]

 

he could use that time to disappear with Paige and Henry

 

In the middle of the episode it occurred to me that we might be headed for a Philip vs. Elizabeth showdown, with Philip trying to save the kids. The mind boggles at the difficulty of spiriting them away undetected by Elizabeth and the KGB. Where would they go? Who would pay for it? How would they hide their identities without help from the US government, which would bring more problems? What if one of the kids objected and kept calling Elizabeth or blowing their cover?

 

I'm glad the pace picked up last night. I FFed through the hotel abbatoir; absolutely no need to see that.

 

I'm appreciating reading the perspective of posters who are familiar with 80s Soviet life. On TWOP I posted that I knew a very suave Soviet "trade representative" who openly made the rounds of Capitol Hill parties in the 1970s (I was young and naive and someone had to explain to me that he was probably KGB). And I met Baryshnikov at one of those parties soon after his defection; he was surrounded by security.

 

When Paige mentioned handing out leaflets in Clarendon, it jolted me. Clarendon is a very expensive, trendy desirable neighborhood in Arlington, VA, but in 1982 it was still a collection of modest post-war homes and tiny worn shops. Nobody called it Clarendon then.

Edited February 5, 2015 by pasdetrois

[gwhh]

They were NOT breaking bones to get her into the suitcase.

 

Rigor has set in and that was muscles and things like that cracking

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigor_mortis

[sistermagpie]

They were NOT breaking bones to get her into the suitcase.

Rigor has set in and that was muscles and things like that cracking

 

 

That's what I thought and then everyone was talking about breaking her bones. I thought...is it really possible to break bones that easily? But yeah, I thought it was clearly rigor mortis. They should have folded her up right away!

[Umbelina]

It looked like they broke a few bones, her neck and that leg was at a very weird angle, but yeah, it was mostly rigor.

[chocolatine]

It was still a really disturbing scene and sound effect.

[pomme de terre]

I missed something from the last episode -- why was Elizabeth having mouth problems that would require a dentist?

Also, it's totally in character for her to be all self-righteous about it, but doesn't Elizabeth consider the difference between her 16-year-old self and Paige's life? Elizabeth's mother was like, "Yeah, OK, this KGB job sounds good," because she was speaking to a daughter in 1956 in Smolensk with one (ailing) parent. Nadhezda's choices were limited. Paige has a lot more options. And Elizabeth still had a choice, which Paige won't if they manipulate her into the program.

[chocolatine]

I missed something from the last episode -- why was Elizabeth having mouth problems that would require a dentist?

 

 

It's from the fight with Gaad and his partner. She spat blood when she was cleaning herself up at home afterwards. Stan said they have surveillance on all the ERs and dentist offices in case someone who matches Elizabeth's description comes in for treatment, so it's dangerous for her to see a dentist because it's still only a few days post-fight.

Edited February 5, 2015 by chocolatine

[ElectricBoogaloo]

And thanks for the mention of Sierra Nevada Pale Ale (from my old hometown of Chico), but I'm not sure it would have been marketed on the East Coast in 1982. That was some kinda beer list, and they end up with Miller Lite. Tastes Great! (Philip). Less Filling! (Elizabeth).

Ha, Mr. EB made the same comment about Sierra Nevada not being on the East Coast back in the early 80s! We were laughing at the waitress reeling off the first part of the list (Bud, Bud Light, Miller, Miller Lite).

[Ellaria]

Ditto Stan. What is his purpose? He's a lousy husband, a lousy agent, etc. I really wanted Oleg to put him out of his (and my) misery but I really like Oleg and I want to know where his and Nina's characters are going. 

 

I can't stand Stan. My dislike for this character is starting to affect my appreciation for Noah Emmerich. I understand that he is conflicted, guilty, ashamed, etc but I'm at a point where I just can't root for him any more.

 

Also, I think that I missed something: on two separate occasions, Oleg has seen Stan coming out of a dark building. In this episode, Stan leaves the building and walks down an alley. What is in that building and why is Stan always there?

 

I love Oleg. At first, it seemed that he would be nothing more than an annoying cliche. He has become one of the show's most compelling and passionate characters.

 

Interesting to note that the Soviet defector travels in the same manner as Tyrion Lannister.

 

Still no dentist for poor Elizabeth and her broken tooth. The KGB can find a surgeon to remove a bullet from her stomach and stitch her up but they can't find a dentist?

[portia7]

I think I missed something. Where is the suitcase? And what about fingerprints on it?

[albaniantv]

Whether Elizabeth meets her mother in Russia, or here or a third country, it would give us a chance to hear her side or her perspective. The memory of a 16 year old of her mother and their relationship is essentially a child's view. Waking up in bed, if Elizabeth is telling Philip the truth, she was swept up in a memory of her mother's blue dress or blue shirt. The tape and Gabriel's information have triggered all these unwanted feelings and, maybe, never reflected on memories. Now Philip suggests the impossible - a meeting - and she lashes out at him.

 

I think the writers are going for it --and its locale, Russia or here or elsewhere would entail very different contexts and perhaps content. Since she's dying, probably the meeting can only happen once. If it's a mercy meeting in Russia, handled by the Center, it's real purpose  might be to get Elizabeth to rededicate herself and, maybe even Paige --she could come along! Her grandmother could give her the speech (that would be so horrible).

 

If it were here, there would be so much more drama, hiding her away from Stan, who would of course appear at the door at least once. But here, she would get to meet Philip and her grandchildren and maybe her views wouldn't be quite as Elizabeth remembered. Or perhaps the KGB ordered her to tell Elizabeth to accept the offer?

 

The meeting in a third country, as was pointed out, is something that's been done before by Elizabeth and Philip, but only with the Center's involvement, right? 

This option doesn't seem to offer as much potential --but on a one to one basis, Elizabeth and her mother would have a bit of time to get to know each other as adults. 

 

Elizabeth is being so rigid, but she was before and she changed when she began to trust and love Philip. She will have to be the one who changes again--where could the relationship or the show go if they both started readying Paige for life as a spy???

[Umbelina]

Or, as one of the reviews in the media thread suggested, maybe it's all bogus and mom isn't really dying?

[sistermagpie]

I think I missed something. Where is the suitcase? And what about fingerprints on it?

 

 

Doesn't really matter. They just get it to their people and have the body disposed of and the suitcase dumped.

 

it's real purpose  might be to get Elizabeth to rededicate herself and, maybe even Paige --she could come along! Her grandmother could give her the speech (that would be so horrible).

 

 

I don't see why any of this would be necessary. Elizabeth has simply never seriously questioned any of this. She's clearly on board now. I know this is what the Centre always does, but why would their go-to thing always be to get Elizabeth to "re-dedicate" herself when she's so dedicated? Philip's the one who doesn't think it's right to manipulate his daughter and Elizabeth's already moving it along so why would she need to talk to her mother? Especially since her memories of her mother have her ordering her to follow the KGB's orders anyway?

 

It's almost like they keep trying to inspire loyalty in Elizabeth because it's so easy there's no risk. Meanwhile they take Philip for granted--which sending Paige and Elizabeth to Russia would do more than ever.

[benteen]

I was thinking too that Elizabeth's mother having cancer was bullshit due to Elizabeth's line about her always being so serious.  Though as a friend pointed out, the tactic probably doesn't have to be applied to her because she is a true believer.

[bentley]

 

I don't think defector/candy bar loving woman is long for this world, and I think we know Elizabeth and Phillip's next assignment.

I'm already referring to it as Pavlov's chocolate. I'll bet a ruble that once the Russians spot her weakness, she will literally be Death by Chocolate. 

 

Having just watched one of those Dateline shows where the victim was removed from the hotel in a suitcase, this episode was a little too real.