S03.E11: Midnight City

[apinknightmare]

Question: I was just reading a review of this episode, and the reviewer wrote about Laurel's lack of reaction to Oliver being dead and that she was glad there was a mention of her thinking he might still be alive in this ep. When did that happen/what did she say? I totally missed it.

[SmallScreenDiva]

It's when she and Felicity arrived at the foundry and Felicity were telling the guys about being wrong and continuing their mission. Laurel says, "For all we know Oliver could be dead, And Sara certainly is."

[looptab]

Question: I was just reading a review of this episode, and the reviewer wrote about Laurel's lack of reaction to Oliver being dead and that she was glad there was a mention of her thinking he might still be alive in this ep. When did that happen/what did she say? I totally missed it.

I believe that reviewer refers to the scene when she went back to the Foundry with Felicity, she said "For all we know, Oliver could be dead. Sara certainly is. But there are people who are still alive" Or something among those lines. I think this was it? I don't remember anything more explicit than that.

 

ETA: What SmallScreenDiva said :)

Edited January 30, 2015 by looptab

[apinknightmare]

Ah, okay. My rage over the voice incident made me block most of this ep, haha. Thank you!

[jaytee1812]

Totally disagree with that interpretation of the scene. 

 

He might be 19 but he's legally an adult and he is a young man, not a little boy. Thea is the same age. Felicity is only 5 years older than Roy and she could have still said the same thing about Roy to Laurel because it's all about Roy's life experience regardless of his age. Roy being direct  with Laurel as Roy was is not mansplaining.

Roy may be a legal adult but compared to a woman who's old enough to go through law school, he's a little boy.

The mansplaining part of the problem comes from Roy knowing what's best for a woman he barely knows and trying to tell her what to do. He tried to remove her agency. Frankly if Laurel wants to risk her life that's her choice. She knows the risks, she's an adult, she can make that decision. Even if it's a bad decision it's hers to make.

[Delphi]

I don't think Laurel knows the risks. She's playing dress up and thinks because people fear the Canary she somehow won't get stabbed and thrown off a roof. I don't think she appreciates that she might actually be killed during this. Whether due to grief or stupidity. She doesn't know what she's doing. Period. Roy has every right to tell her to back down.

[catrox14]

Roy may be a legal adult but compared to a woman who's old enough to go through law school, he's a little boy.

The mansplaining part of the problem comes from Roy knowing what's best for a woman he barely knows and trying to tell her what to do. He tried to remove her agency. Frankly if Laurel wants to risk her life that's her choice. She knows the risks, she's an adult, she can make that decision. Even if it's a bad decision it's hers to make.

 

How did he take away or even try to take away her agency?

 

He gave her his OPINION of her stupid choices. That has nothing to do with her agency. He didn't lock her in the lair. He didn't handcuff her to a chair. He quite literally took no action to stop her other than pointing out that she was making a mistake and then explained his entirely valid reasons.  And in the end he ended up fighting beside her anyway...which ended up with a man dead because Laurel doesn't know what she is doing. 

 

Laurel is showing the maturity of a 15 year old in her actions so far. She stole her sister's costume. She is lying to her father because she can't handle the thought of losing him. She used a voice modulator to keep up the lie.

 

Where is exactly is the evidence that Laurel is more mature than Roy despite the age difference?

Edited January 30, 2015 by catrox14

[jaytee1812]

I don't think Laurel knows the risks. She's playing dress up and thinks because people fear the Canary she somehow won't get stabbed and thrown off a roof. I don't think she appreciates that she might actually be killed during this. Whether due to grief or stupidity. She doesn't know what she's doing. Period. Roy has every right to tell her to back down.

But it's still her choice, it's her life to put on the line. Maybe she doesn't appreciate the risks, but given Sara's dead I think she does. But even if she doesn't, she doesn't need lectures from little boys.

Also given Roy's stepped into Oliver's shoes, shouldn't he take over telling Felicity what to do, or is that job passed solely to Ray?

Edited January 30, 2015 by jtrattray

[dcinmb]

Side note on the dream scene: Oliver Queen the playboy of Starling City is an insanely chaste kisser in his dreams. It's kind of endearing, really.

 

These two haven't had ANY tongue but I'm glad we didn't get it there.

 

All three of their kisses (including the deleted one) have all the heat and finesse of two ten-year-olds who've never kissed on the lips before. SA and EBR may want to watch watch Season One of BatB for some tips. ;)

 

 

And, showing my age, I loved Oliver's hair and beard in the flashback!  Are we sure these aren't flashbacks to the 80's?  ;)

 

He looked like a Bee Gee but at least the wig looked more natural. But why the need for the long hair at all? You'd think he'd have been dying to get that mop chopped off as soon as he hit civilization. Or is running around Hong Kong looking like Grizzly Adams supposed to help him blend in?

 

Lastly, was KC even in the scene where Laurel's freeing the two aldermen and saying, "Don't worry! We're gonna get you outta here. Go! Go!" Sure didn't sound like her, especially when you compare it to the next scene where it's definitely KC asking Dig to "find me a way outta here." It's not like that scene required any stunt work. 

Edited January 30, 2015 by dcinmb

[foreverevolving]

Roy may be a legal adult but compared to a woman who's old enough to go through law school, he's a little boy.

The mansplaining part of the problem comes from Roy knowing what's best for a woman he barely knows and trying to tell her what to do. He tried to remove her agency. Frankly if Laurel wants to risk her life that's her choice. She knows the risks, she's an adult, she can make that decision. Even if it's a bad decision it's hers to make.

Except that's the thing, at the moment until the scene where Brick shot the elderman, that's what Oliver continued to try and explain to her- that she truly does not understands the risk.

I'm not sure if you ever served in the military, I have, I also have friends and classmates who- unlike me- served in combat position where they shot and killed; i served as a secretary to some captain (or whatever the equivalent is at the us army. And yet, I would never EVER, despite having served and having fired a weapon, know what it's like to serve in those positions.

Oliver, Roy, Diggle, Lyla, Quentin and of course SARA - are all the combat soldiers

Laurel - she's like me, she's aware of what may happen, but she has not experience it first hand so while logically she gets it, emotionally?! She has no fucking idea.

Being a fighting soldier? Man.... Some of my friends are totally fucking messed up from that. And this is in a country where literally almost everyone serves in the army (mandatory service).

So no, Laurel has(d) no fucking idea what that life does to you. Which is why Roy telling her to get the fuck off the streets was warranted, and was by no means mansplaining. He was trying to protect her life and the innocents that may die form her lack of competence. Also i disagree in the age difference things being an issue, life experience comes in all shapes and forms, just because your 19 doesn't mean you have no idea about life. You may be more naive than someone who is 29. But to be fair, if you go and talk to any 19 year old soldier who has seen "action" or any 19 year old who grew up in rough conditions, or hack even lost a parent or two at a young age and had to step up to help at home... you'll sadly realize just how fast you grow up when you have no choice, because that's what life demends of you.

Buckle up or buckle down-- i believe is the saying? (And no puns intended for bucklecanary)

All three of their kisses (including the deleted one) have all the heat and finesse of two ten-year-olds kissing for the very first time. SA and EBR may want to watch watch Season One of BatB for some tips. ;)

There could be many reasons why they don't use their tongues. Could be one of them doesn't like kissing with tongue, or there's a personal reason. Most likely it's a conscious acting decision, or maybe it's written in the script, maybe they both feel that the characters are not yet at that stage. Tongue kissing is a very sexual, and none of their kissing scenes was of the sexual kind.

To be honest i fine with it, Oliver literally immediately shoved his tongue down lienary, Helena and Mackana (sp) and Sara throats- actually most of his kisses with these ladies were in scenes where they ended up having sex.. so yeaI'm fine with him not doing it straight away with Felicity.. It proves - to me- that his attraction to her is more than mere sexual, that she is more important to him than the rest so he chooses to not stick his tongue right away.

Also an FYI: if you if you look at most kissing scenes on TV/movies for the most part none of them really involves tongues. You can absolutely kiss a co star in a kissing scene and make it look as if you're using tongue. It takes a strong self restraint cause it's an instinctive reaction for most people.

Edited January 30, 2015 by foreverevolving

[catrox14]

Also given Roy's stepped into Oliver's shoes, shouldn't he take over telling Felicity what to do, or is that job passed solely to Ray?

 

Roy didn't take over for Oliver. He's stepping up to do  city saving but Felicity is actually his superior if you want to go by seniority on Team Arrow. Why would Roy tell Felicity what to do? They are working as a team.

 

The only person in the lair who has no business telling anyone else what to do and yet still is.. named Laurel. 

Edited January 30, 2015 by catrox14

[Delphi]

Roy may have stepped into Oliver's shoes in terms of patrolling Starling City. But to me it seemed pretty obvious that Felicity essentially stepped into the leadership role of Team Arrow. No one is telling her what to do. Even with Ray, she chose to help because he's less likely to die with her expertise. So I don't quite see your point there.

[Tangerine]

But it's still her choice, it's her life to put on the line. Maybe she doesn't appreciate the risks, but given Sara's dead I think she does. But even if she doesn't, she doesn't need lectures from little boys.

 

Yes, it is still her choice. And she still got to make said choice. Which is why I didn't see how Roy was taking away her agency at all. Roy still left that choice available and open to her. It wasn't like he sabotaged her or hypnotized her like Malcolm did to Thea. And I disagree. Laurel very much needed the lecture, even if it was from a 19-year-old because she clearly isn't ready and got somebody killed.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Tangerine

[Sakura12]

Someone needs to tell Laurel that Sara didn't just decide to put on costume to fight crime, she was a freaking Ninja Assassin that was not just highly trained in all the different martial arts, she most likely is trained in stealth, strategic intelligence, discipline and how to use every weapon imaginable. Laurel is trained in none of those. 

[statsgirl]

Sara was a great fighter though, and had more empathy and caring for others than Laurel does. Isn't that what the Black Canary is supposed to be?

 

No but a little boy explaining to a grown woman why he can tell her what to with her life is mansplaining. He takes the same attitude with Thea when he goes to Merlin.

Isn't 19 when Felicity graduated from MIT?

 

If Malcolm were honest with Thea and didn't take away all her agency and manipulate her like crazy in a weird Stockholm Syndrome way, Roy wouldn't have needed to talk to him. Entirely different thing.  Roy wasn't making choices for Thea, he was telling Malcolm to be honest with her and stop jerking her around.

 

The dynamic between Roy and Laurel didn't bother me either, for the same reasons you've all laid out here. But it's a good moment to point out once again that this is why it was stupid to do the BC story this way. It puts Oliver (and now others) WAY above and beyond her in skill and experience. No matter what happens to her, I will always see her as 5-7 years behind Oliver and Sara; 10 years behind Diggle; 2 years behind Roy, etc etc etc. It's a terrible way to write a character who is supposed to be a force of nature. That was Sara. That's Nyssa. That's not Laurel and it never will be. Not on this show.

Maybe the EPs are thinking we'll just forget about all that, like we're taking the herbs Malcolm is giving Thea.

 

Roy may be a legal adult but compared to a woman who's old enough to go through law school, he's a little boy.

The mansplaining part of the problem comes from Roy knowing what's best for a woman he barely knows and trying to tell her what to do. He tried to remove her agency. Frankly if Laurel wants to risk her life that's her choice. She knows the risks, she's an adult, she can make that decision. Even if it's a bad decision it's hers to make.

The way Roy grew up, in the Glades and having to fight to stay alive compared to Laurel's cocooned existence makes him much older in terms of maturity and real life experience.  Not to mention what it really means to be in the streets fighting.  Laurel is still delusional about that.

 

The problem is not just that Laurel is putting her own life at risk (because personally speaking by this point I would be hoping she gets if not killed but permanently sidelined but Roy is a better person than I am) but that she's putting Roy's and Diggle's lives at risk by being a liability in the field.  They all go out fighting, Laurel gets hurt, Roy and Diggle have to stop what they are doing and protect her, putting themselves in further risk.

 

Right now I feel that if Laurel weren't so selfish, so insistent like a 3 year old child stamping her foot that she can do it, everyone would be safer.  Let's put it this way, after 3 months of reservist training, would you put someone in the cpmbat field to protect your back?

 

Andrew Kreisburg said in an interview that Felicity along with Diggle are taking the leadership role in Oliver's absence.

Edited January 30, 2015 by statsgirl

[NoWayOut]

Someone needs to tell Laurel that Sara didn't just decide to put on costume to fight crime, she was a freaking Ninja Assassin that was not just highly trained in all the different martial arts, she most likely is trained in stealth, strategic intelligence, discipline and how to use every weapon imaginable. Laurel is trained in none of those. 

Who needs stealth, strategic intelligence and discipline when you've got a big heart and fire inside of you?

[marcee]

But it's still her choice, it's her life to put on the line. Maybe she doesn't appreciate the risks, but given Sara's dead I think she does. But even if she doesn't, she doesn't need lectures from little boys.

Also given Roy's stepped into Oliver's shoes, shouldn't he take over telling Felicity what to do, or is that job passed solely to Ray?

Would it be okay if it was a grown man who lectured her? Or a little girl? Or an old lady? I don't understand what age or gender has to do with anything here? It was just another character involved in the situation who thought (rightly so) that she was making a mistake and told her so. I wouldn't have been so cordial in my 'lecture' to her.

[jay741982]

Those Vincat kisses were hot. Oliver and Felicity need to kiss like that lol

[catrox14]

Oh one day we'll have those kisses between Oliver and Felicity.  For my money the kiss in the Calm was fucking steaming hot because of the passion and desperation behind it.  All the tongue in the world wouldn't have helped make that kiss any hotter. I think the kiss here was not really chaste because Oliver still put his hands on her face which just personally, every time is so sexy.

[steelyis]

So faking Canary is better for her dad than quite realistically potentially being killed as fake Canary and having her dad find out that both of his daughters are dead?

Fuck you, Laurel.

 

 

That... is a good point. I was so occupied being pissed off that Laurel is lying about Sara and not giving much of a shit about Laurel in general, it never occurred to me Captain Lance could end up losing both his daughters, from his perspective, at the same time. Laurel keeping the truth from Captain Lance is becoming more repugnant as time passes.

 

 

I thought this place was a troll-less space?

 

 

Right?

[Starfish35]

I didn't realise liking Laurel was and her mission was against the rules in this forum.

I don't think anyone has a problem with you liking Laurel. It's your "mansplaining" argument that's being a tough sell.

[jaytee1812]

I don't think anyone has a problem with you liking Laurel. It's your "mansplaining" argument that's being a tough sell.

That's the way I read that scene. Roy was lecturing Laurel, he's 19, no-one over the age of 20 should take any lecture from a 19 year old, I don't care how bad his upbringing was or what he's been through. And gender does matter, especially on this show which has a bad habit of regularly having the male characters expect the women to be subservient. A 19 year old who expects a women in her late 20s to listen to him has way too much entitlement.

I could understand a peer approaching her, possibly Felicty, or if it must be a 19 year old make it Thea, at least they have an established relationship.

I'm not saying it was a smart decision but it wasn't Roy's place to challenge her.

[Starfish35]

According to the Arrow wikia, Roy is 23 or 24, not 19. And we're going to have to agree to disagree about his right to challenge her on her choices. I think he absolutely had the right - you don't. I don't think anyone's going to be changing their mind on this.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Starfish35

[catrox14]

That's the way I read that scene. Roy was lecturing Laurel, he's 19, no-one over the age of 20 should take any lecture from a 19 year old, I don't care how bad his upbringing was or what he's been through. And gender does matter, especially on this show which has a bad habit of regularly having the male characters expect the women to be subservient. A 19 year old who expects a women in her late 20s to listen to him has way too much entitlement.

I could understand a peer approaching her, possibly Felicty, or if it must be a 19 year old make it Thea, at least they have an established relationship.

I'm not saying it was a smart decision but it wasn't Roy's place to challenge her.

 

Why isn't it Roy's place to talk the idiot off the ledge when said idiot's idiocy might get him or another member of Team Arrow killed?

 

It's kind of negligent if he didn't say "Hey Laurel.  WTF"

 

If Oliver was the one giving her the exact same lecture that would be perfectly okay because he's older? 

 

oh wait, I do remember Oliver giving her essentially the same lecture and refusing to train her and she ignored him too.

 

 

I could understand a peer approaching her, possibly Felicty, or if it must be a 19 year old make it Thea, at least they have an established relationship.

 

Not seeing why there is a difference as to who the messenger is this scenario. If Laurel is going to be on Team Arrow she better expect some blowback from ANY member of Team Arrow regardless, when she's being a dumbass. She better get used to it.

Edited January 30, 2015 by catrox14

[formerlyfreedom]

Let's move on from the conversation - there's obvious disagreement, and no one's mind is going to be changed.

Future posts on Laurel and Roy's discussion, or 'mansplaining' will be subject to immediate deletion. There is lots of other stuff to talk about. Move along please.

[statsgirl]

Also an FYI: if you if you look at most kissing scenes on TV/movies for the most part none of them really involves tongues. You can absolutely kiss a co star in a kissing scene and make it look as if you're using tongue. It takes a strong self restraint cause it's an instinctive reaction for most people.

One way to do it is move your jaw around.  For a viewer, it looks like there's tongue involved.

 

I feel Laurel is like a neutron star, small (in terms of screen time), incredibly dense (no pun intended until I actually saw what I had written) and with a very high gravitation pull that pulls the other characters off their normal orbits (i.e. characteristics and behaviour) towards her (escape velocity ranging from 100,000 km/s to 150,000 km/s).  How else to explain Felicity's and Diggle's OOC actions in this episode?

Edited January 30, 2015 by statsgirl

[tennisgurl]

I swear, next episode I am starting the #tellQuentindamnit tag, and I will keep going until someone listens! 

[catrox14]

I swear, next episode I am starting the #tellQuentindamnit tag, and I will keep going until someone listens! 

 

I see no reason to wait until the next episode to start it.  I would add #LaurelLanceLyingLiarthatLies

[foreverevolving]

I swear, next episode I am starting the #tellQuentindamnit tag, and I will keep going until someone listens!

Just for that i'll sign in to my twitter account (never used it but..)

Seriously we need organize this. Maybe we can get some of the tumbler blog, and campea to help spread the word.

#TellQuentin_ForTheLoveofCanary

Also

#LaurelLanceAka_Liecanary or #LaurelLanceIsNotTrueBlackCanary (a bit long but..)

I can just keep on going. The rage is real my friends.

Edited January 31, 2015 by foreverevolving

[calliope1975]

It has to be simple, but I'd get in on that. If Tumblr can organize Felicity trends every week, someone should be able to do this. 

[BkWurm1]

I think a simple #TellQuentin would work well. 

[foreverevolving]

I think a simple #TellQuentin would work well.

Oh i know, I was just venting out.

[catrox14]

I think a simple #TellQuentin would work well. 

 

You keep logic and kindness out of our angst!  

[BkWurm1]

Oh, I can help with that.  How about...

 

#MaketheBuckleCanarySing_TellQuentin

Edited January 31, 2015 by BkWurm1

[JenMcSnark]

For the love of all that is good, don't do it during the episode because it will add to the Twitter ratings and you just KNOW Guggentroll will view it as a positive reaction to all of his wonderful, amazing plans! 

[foreverevolving]

Oh, I can help with that.  How about...

 

#MaketheBuckleCanarySing_TellQuentin

#MaketheBuckleCanaryTweet_TellQuentin

#BlackCanary?MoreLikeBuckleCanary (or any other word variation we have for her)....

#ShhhBeVeryVeryQuiet_ImHuntingFakanary (seriously can someone draw this? I love Elmer Fudd, it will be perfect. Also i'd be totally cool with sabastian drawn with a Arrow like BuckleCanary (as an actual Canary) in is mouth.

On another note... Who knew i can be this mean and bitchy so soon after waking up.

[dcinmb]

There could be many reasons why they don't use their tongues. Could be one of them doesn't like kissing with tongue, or there's a personal reason. Most likely it's a conscious acting decision, or maybe it's written in the script, maybe they both feel that the characters are not yet at that stage. Tongue kissing is a very sexual, and none of their kissing scenes was of the sexual kind.

To be honest i fine with it, Oliver literally immediately shoved his tongue down lienary, Helena and Mackana (sp) and Sara throats- actually most of his kisses with these ladies were in scenes where they ended up having sex.. so yeaI'm fine with him not doing it straight away with Felicity.. It proves - to me- that his attraction to her is more than mere sexual, that she is more important to him than the rest so he chooses to not stick his tongue right away.

Also an FYI: if you if you look at most kissing scenes on TV/movies for the most part none of them really involves tongues. You can absolutely kiss a co star in a kissing scene and make it look as if you're using tongue. It takes a strong self restraint cause it's an instinctive reaction for most people.

 

It's not the lack of tongue that bothers me but the stiff "choreography" of their kisses. It's like the director's in the background saying, "Lean in! Close your eyes! Press your lips together! Hold still for 5-4-3-2-1. Now separate!"---as I mentioned earlier, their static kissing style reminds me of inexperienced pre-teens kissing on the lips for the very first time. The kiss in The Calm varied slightly with the addition of the awkward turn but if I were Felicity, I'd have been wondering, "What's he doing? Why are we turning?"

 

And I agree that it's still too early for Oliver to be sticking his tongue down Felicity's throat. These early kisses should be tender and romantic and maybe even somewhat tentative, but they should also be full of longing and feeling and I guess that's what's been missing for me. I love Olicity and think they have great chemistry but I haven't felt much chemistry in their kisses, although I did think that the kiss in The Calm was a bit better than the deleted and dream kisses. I actually thought that the forehead kiss in The Climb was more heartfelt and romantic than any of their others. I'd been anticipating their kisses for quite a while so maybe my expectations were just too high.

[apinknightmare]

It's not the lack of tongue that bothers me but the stiff "choreography" of their kisses. It's like the director's in the background saying, "Lean in! Close your eyes! Press your lips together! Hold still for 5-4-3-2-1. Now separate!"---as I mentioned earlier, their static kissing style reminds me of inexperienced pre-teens kissing on the lips for the very first time. The kiss in The Calm varied slightly with the addition of the awkward turn but if I were Felicity, I'd have been wondering, "What's he doing? Why are we turning?"

 

And I agree that it's still too early for Oliver to be sticking his tongue down Felicity's throat. These early kisses should be tender and romantic and maybe even somewhat tentative, but they should also be full of longing and feeling and I guess that's what's been missing for me. I love Olicity and think they have great chemistry but I haven't felt much chemistry in their kisses, although I did think that the kiss in The Calm was a bit better than the deleted and dream kisses. I actually thought that the forehead kiss in The Climb was more heartfelt and romantic than any of their others. I'd been anticipating their kisses for quite a while so maybe my expectations were just too high.

 

I think the deleted kiss was supposed to be kind of chaste. I think it would've looked terrible if it had been super passionate and then he "tricked" her. The kiss in The Calm I thought was sweet and gentle, and probably a lot of Oliver letting him have a little bit but holding a lot back. The kiss in Midnight City was always going to be awkward because Stephen Amell had a mouthful of blood. 

[dcinmb]

I think the deleted kiss was supposed to be kind of chaste. I think it would've looked terrible if it had been super passionate and then he "tricked" her. The kiss in The Calm I thought was sweet and gentle, and probably a lot of Oliver letting him have a little bit but holding a lot back. The kiss in Midnight City was always going to be awkward because Stephen Amell had a mouthful of blood. 

 

I've never understood why everyone is convinced that Felicity wasn't in on the plan in the first place. I took Oliver's "We both did" in response to Felicity's "You really sold it" as confirmation that she did know what was going to happen and I assumed that they'd hatched the plan while still at Queen Consolidated. I thought Felicity was just surprised at how convincing Oliver had been so she allowed herself to hope that he'd meant what he'd said. Although I did think it was odd that he didn't just hand her the syringe before they entered the Queen mansion.

 

As for the Midnight City kiss, SA didn't actually have the blood pouch in his mouth while they were kissing. And if you listen closely, you can even hear the sound of the pouch bursting as he bites down on it.

[apinknightmare]

The "we both did" was in reference to the kiss, I think. Oliver wasn't ready to admit (or didn't realize) that he meant what he said, so I think the "we both did" was a way of letting her off the hook for being maybe embarrassed about kissing him, thinking it was real. It doesn't really make sense (to me) that they left that in since without the kiss she didn't really sell anything. He just told her he loved her and handed her a syringe.

I absolutely believe she didn't know, and didn't the EPs confirm that?

Edited January 31, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Soulfire]

The "we both did" was in reference to the kiss, I think. Oliver wasn't ready to admit (or didn't realize) that he meant what he said, so I think the "we both did" was a way of letting her off the hook for being maybe embarrassed about kissing him, thinking it was real. It doesn't really make sense (to me) that they left that in since without the kiss she didn't really sell anything. He just told her he loved her and handed her a syringe.

 

Even without the kiss they sold the idea to Slade that he'd grabbed the wrong woman -- that it was Felicity Oliver loved the most, not Laurel.

Edited January 31, 2015 by Soulfire

[dcinmb]

The "we both did" was in reference to the kiss, I think. Oliver wasn't ready to admit (or didn't realize) that he meant what he said, so I think the "we both did" was a way of letting her off the hook for being maybe embarrassed about kissing him, thinking it was real. It doesn't really make sense (to me) that they left that in since without the kiss she didn't really sell anything. He just told her he loved her and handed her a syringe.

I absolutely believe she didn't know, and didn't the EPs confirm that?

 

Weren't they play-acting for Slade's benefit from the moment they walked through the front doors of the Queen Mansion? She had to sell her indignation at Oliver's asking her to stay in the mansion instead of going with him and being "unsafe," as well as her surprise at his declaration of love.

 

eta: To bring the discussion back to this episode, I find it interesting that Oliver and Tatsu pronounce Maseo's name so differently. He says Ma-Say-Oh and she says Mah-Sau. I'm not Japanese but I lived in Tokyo for three years and I've never heard the name Maseo before, although I did know a few Masao's. If Maseo's not a real Japanese name, that's probably why Rila Fukushima's pronouncing it as Masao. Oliver also pronounces Ra's al Ghul differently from everyone else, doesn't he?

Edited January 31, 2015 by dcinmb

[foreverevolving]

if i remember Oliver says Ra-y-sh? (or close?)

either way both he and the Ra's prounciation that is common are mostly wrong. the correct form is "Ra-Es". if you do a google search for "head in arabic" there should be the google translator with a sound bite- it's the first one in the noun section. that is the correct way in Arabic, which is the common origin for the character in the comics if i remember correctly.

now with that being said: like various languages Arabic has a sea of dialects and ways to pronunciate different words. So you really have to focus down on the right way, and keep in mind that Ra's has lived for centuries, and language is a very dynamic thing. but since he was created in modern time...

Edited January 31, 2015 by foreverevolving

[doesntworkonwood]

if i remember Oliver says Ra-y-sh? (or close?)

either way both he and the Ra's prounciation that is common are wrong. the correct form is Rais. if you do a google search or "head in arabic" there should be the google translator with a sound bite. that is the correct way in Arabic, which is the common origin for the character in the comics if i remember correctly.

 

It's not actually. I can't speak arabic, but I can read it. If you look beyond google translate, the arabic form is written رأس  which is pronounced Raahs, (with a long aa sound). 

[poetgirl925]

I'm not sure if this has come up, but I think I am even more annoyed by Laurel as a lawyer than I am by her as BC. I've pretty much accepted we'll never get BC as she should from the comics. She's going to be a sidekick on level with Roy, more or less, no matter how much she trains. She'll never be Oliver's equal, and it's never going to make sense. If I'm going to keep watching the show, I'm going to have accept she's BC because comics, and her name, and that's it.

But we have watched everyone else struggle to balance life and vigilantism. Oliver tried to be a CEO and Arrow and what happened? He lost his company. We've seen Felicity trying to balance her job and her role in Team Arrow, in the premiere and with Ray. If Ray didn't want her on his team so badly, she might have been fired for all the ducking out. We've seen Diggle bring the baby to work.

I don't see any such struggle with Laurel. It's really inconsistent writing. She can drink and do drugs at work, but her work doesn't suffer. Her getting fired had to be orchestrated by Blood. It would have been better for her to be fired for blowing a case, really. It would have showed real world consequences. But she got her job back. We've seen her blow it with calling in SWAT in that one episode, but that's it. She can apparently be ADA and train to be Sara all at once. In previous episodes she's abused her power, tried to kill someone, beat people up, etc - no consequences. In this episode, she can illegally threaten people with no consequences. If I don't see her start dropping the ball at work while trying to balance training and impersonating her sister, I'm calling BS. With each episode, I find her willingness to break whatever laws suit her more and more irritating. Sure they're all breaking the law as vigilantes, but she's the only one who swore an oath to uphold the law. Shouldn't there be a moral dilemma presented here? Even Felicity struggled with the moral dilemma briefly - so did Diggle. I'm so annoyed by this.

[kismet]

It's not the lack of tongue that bothers me but the stiff "choreography" of their kisses. It's like the director's in the background saying, "Lean in! Close your eyes! Press your lips together! Hold still for 5-4-3-2-1. Now separate!"---as I mentioned earlier, their static kissing style reminds me of inexperienced pre-teens kissing on the lips for the very first time. The kiss in The Calm varied slightly with the addition of the awkward turn but if I were Felicity, I'd have been wondering, "What's he doing? Why are we turning?"

 

And I agree that it's still too early for Oliver to be sticking his tongue down Felicity's throat. These early kisses should be tender and romantic and maybe even somewhat tentative, but they should also be full of longing and feeling and I guess that's what's been missing for me. I love Olicity and think they have great chemistry but I haven't felt much chemistry in their kisses, although I did think that the kiss in The Calm was a bit better than the deleted and dream kisses. I actually thought that the forehead kiss in The Climb was more heartfelt and romantic than any of their others. I'd been anticipating their kisses for quite a while so maybe my expectations were just too high.

Gotta agree with some of your points. The climb was perhaps the best but that had more to do with the cinematography than the actual kiss. The forehead kiss was great, until I was reminded that he had given Sara a similar kiss for a similar reason. So as much as I loved it, it is not unique - although I did appreciate it & any other kiss might have been too much, esp since they probably knew he would only be dead for like 50min. The deleted kiss was better off deleted, it was poorly timed would have been detrimental to the characters/plot/relationship. Glad they showed us it, even happier they cut it. The dream sequence kiss was a little hesitant but I attributed that to the whole blood in mouth stunt. Also that whole entire dream was a little off, perhaps so we could tell it was a dream or perhaps because we were in Oliver's head/perspective. I will say even if it wasn't my favorite kiss, I am happy that they do have him dreaming of her. That to me is well within his character, good motivation to get better and hopefully good sign that there will be a future for them someday, just not anytime soon is what I got with the whole sword in chest metaphor.

 

Their kisses have been romantic and sweet. But they have lacked heat, which is a little surprising considering the chemistry they have when they are bantering, staring or touching each other. In regards to the tongue discussion that has been in this thread, totally accurate about the mechanics of kissing on camera - most actors don't do it on regular basis. However, there are ways to act & ways to film a kiss that gives it heat without needing tongues. I feel like moving forward the show needs to take quick seminar on passionate kissing, if they are gonna have any romantic couples on the show. To be completely honest, I think their most passionate embrace has not even included a kiss. For me, it is when he decides to surrender himself to Slade after his mother's funeral. While they are trying to convince each other that the other is wrong, they are holding hands and staring at each other so intensely. Oliver's face & stare in that scene had so much intensity and passion, esp when he basically stares at her face & lips while leaning fwd. Its a good few moments that he finally breaks apart but doesnt let go of her hand until  he absolutely has to. That moment to me I think so far has been the most raw passion we have seen. Everything else has seemed a little safe & tentative.

[foreverevolving]

It's not actually. I can't speak arabic, but I can read it. If you look beyond google translate, the arabic form is written رأس  which is pronounced Raahs, (with a long aa sound). 

here is the thing: you are not wrong, but you are also not 100% right.

My knowledge goes behind Google (I used google cause it was faster to bring as an example- and they pronounced accurately--which i will elaborate later)

 

I grew up listening to Arabic my entire life - part of the product of growing up in a country where Arabic is the 2nd official language and being surrounded by Arabic speaking countries,

I can't read it anymore (and my knowledge was limited to begin with) but i have great audio memory for the sound of words. I grew up in the 90's when Yasser Arafat was still very much alive and in power, his most common nickname? Ra'is (which means both Head as well as President) Now I used an E instead of I because when I grew up and the word was spoken the I also sounded like an E. I won't go into a youtube search but i'm sure there's a video out there where he is being addresses as Ra'is.

 

 

Now.. the thing is? Arabic has like 5-10 (that I know and remember off the top of my head) different dialects, and just like there is a difference in pronunciation between American English, to British, to Canadian, to Australian and so forth, there are also differences in Arabic.

That's why everyone is so divided on how you say it, because none is really fully wrong, and everyone is sort of right. It all depends on which dialect you speak.

Edited January 31, 2015 by foreverevolving

[doesntworkonwood]

here is the thing: you are not wrong, but you are also not 100% right.

My knowledge goes behind Google (I used google cause it was faster to bring as an example- and they pronounced accurately--which i will elaborate later)

 

I grew up listening to Arabic my entire life - part of the product of growing up in a country where Arabic is the 2nd official language and being surrounded by Arabic speaking countries,

I can't read it anymore (and my knowledge was limited to begin with) but i have great audio memory for the sound of words. I grew up in the 90's when Yasser Arafat was still very much alive and in power, his most common nickname? Ra'is (which means both Head as well as President) Now I used an E instead of I because when I grew up and the word was spoken the I also sounded like an E. I won't go into a youtube search but i'm sure there's a video out there where he is being addresses as Ra'is.

 

 

Now.. the thing is? Arabic has like 5-10 (that I know and remember off the top of my head) different dialects, and just like there is a difference in pronunciation between American English, to British, to Canadian, to Australian and so forth, there are also differences in Arabic.

That's why everyone is so divided on how you say it, because none is really fully wrong, and everyone is sort of right. It all depends on which dialect you speak.

 

Oh that's totally fine! I'm muslim so I've learnt to read Quranic Arabic since I was about four, so that's just the basis for my understanding. 

[statsgirl]

I'm trying to understand why the writing picked Laurel to pretend to be Sara to get the info on Brick from Lance.  It would have made much more sense for Felicity to call him directly because he knows she's the Arrow's tech person, he even asked her why the Arrow wasn't around in this episode.

 

And even ADA Laurel could have got the info from him because nominally at least she's on the side of the law.

 

All this makes no sense at all.  Were we supposed to feel sorry for Laurel that she's so upset to be lying to her father?

[looptab]

I'm trying to understand why the writing picked Laurel to pretend to be Sara to get the info on Brick from Lance. It would have made much more sense for Felicity to call him directly because he knows she's the Arrow's tech person, he even asked her why the Arrow wasn't around in this episode.

And even ADA Laurel could have got the info from him because nominally at least she's on the side of the law.

All this makes no sense at all. Were we supposed to feel sorry for Laurel that she's so upset to be lying to her father?

I really can't believe no one questioned that idea. And yes, they wanted us to feel sorry for Laurel, no other explanation possible.

On another note, was I the only one who hated that 'warmer..warmer" bit? I was covering my ears in horror.lol