Unpopular Opinions

[Andorra]

Although I wouldn't necessarily want Mary as a friend, I love the character. She has so many dimensions and is by far the most interesting of the entire family.

 

I agree. And I would love to have her as a friend. If Mary loves you, she is loyal to a fault. We've seen various proof of that (with Anna and with Tom).

[Roseanna]

I agree. And I would love to have her as a friend. If Mary loves you, she is loyal to a fault. We've seen various proof of that (with Anna and with Tom).

 

That's true and it's admirable for most part.

 

But when she destroyed the evidence that, as she believed, proved that Bates could have murdered Green, she crossed the line where loyalty is a vice. Green raped Anna, but he should have have condemned in the court.

 

That even the saintly Mrs Hughes that it was right to take the revenge one's own hands means the society based on law is undermined.

[whateverdgaf]

I actually empathise with Daisy. No, she is not behaving like a mature adult. But she had been stuck in the kitchens since she was eleven and never really had the chance to grow or try something new. She is starting to learn how to react and live in the world around her.

 She had a tough upbringing and didn't really have anyone there for her until she had Mr Mason and Mrs Patmore, so I can understand why she has difficulty sharing them. Especially as it was mentioned that she had a large family, so I think her asking "doesn't it?" when she is told that someone loving someone else doesn't make them love her less is rather telling. So she is behaving like a bratty teenager, but she really is just beginning to grow.

Not only that, she has come to realise that she is very close to being at the bottom of the social heap. She knows that through no fault of her own, just being born to poor parents, she is deprived of many things and opportunities. So I get why she is rather rankled by this.

And, I have to admire her somewhat as she is trying really hard to escape the situation she is in. You can't deny she has worked really hard to pass those exams. And I am delighted with her for her achievements.

[caligirl50]

I just have to write this...sometimes Julian uses lines from other films/books. Tom said it in this latest episode (episode 8 - just Christmas Special left) it got me to thinking:

- When Lavinia Swire asks Mary for a handkerchief at the hospital when she is about to see Matthew after he’s been injured at the front, she says something like, “I never have a handkerchief in times of crisis,” or something like that.  CLASSIC JOKE from Gone With The Wind.  Rhett makes a snide comment to Scarlett that she never has had a handkerchief in any crises since he’s known her (I’m paraphrasing).

- When Tom and Mary are in the woods (this past episode) and Tom imitates Mary when she says she likes Henry and blah, blah - whatever else she said.  That is a scene in Ang Lee’s Sense and Sensibility.  Kate Winslet is asking Emma Thompson what she thinks of Hugh Grant.

- I’ve written this before and this doesn’t fit into stealing words but the music used when Mr. Sampson discovers the letter he stole written by the Prince of Wales is missing is from Hitchcock’s Dial M for Murder.

 

I need to think of more...I think there is something from 1939’s THE WOMEN but I have to see the film again.

Edited February 24, 2016 by caligirl50

[Diffy]

At the risk of repeating myself, I cannot hear Cora talk without thinking of Truman Capote (and impersonators).

 

You nailed it, darn you!  I will never again watch Downton Abbey without thinking of Truman.

 

Elizabeth McGovern's mid-Atlantic accent doesn't bother me and is probably normal for anyone like Cora (or Elizabeth for that matter) who has spent many years in England.  It's the strange way she delivers her lines and that coy head tilt that drive me up the wall.  Hold your head straight, woman!

[proserpina65]

I like the name Marigold.  I think it's very pretty.

[Artymouse]

I like the name Marigold.  I think it's very pretty.

 

My father grew marigolds when I was a kid; they pretty much lined the driveway, so I always think of marigolds as flopping around me and getting dew all over my shoes in the mornings. Of all the plant names used as character names on this show, I think I like Violet the most.

 

I wandered onto DA Wikipedia today, and apparently, Miss Shore, Lady Rosamund's maid who was caught in flagrante with Lord Hepworth, was named Marigold. So it must have been more common in that era than I realized.

 

And I would not recommend visiting the Wikipedia page if you're unspoiled, however, as I inadvertently discovered a spoiler for the finale while on the page.

[proserpina65]

My father grew marigolds when I was a kid;

 

Mine did too.  Maybe that's why I like the name so much.  It reminds me of him.

[TheGreenKnight]

While on the subject, since I always see negative comments about her, I think the girl who plays Marigold is the cutest of the three children to me. I know she's not the best actress of the three and she looks sedated most of the time, but everytime I see her onscreen I can't help but find her adorable.

[MyAimIsTrue]

I think the child who plays Marigold is adorable as well.

 

This may not be a truly unpopular opinion but as the show winds down here in the US (and I'm getting sadder about it by the minute) I've come to realize that my favorite character may not be my beloved Mrs. Hughes or the Dowager Countess but, in fact, could be Molesley.

[PRgal]

I like the name Marigold.  I think it's very pretty.

 

Being from Canada, I can't think of the name Marigold without thinking of the ginger-haired rag doll in Polka Dot Door (a VERY popular kids' show back in the 80s).  And I can see someone like Edith naming a child such (today, she'd have some hipster name).  I also don't mind Cora/Elizabeth McGovern's "accent."

[AndySmith]

I always think of Marigold as the name of a Triple Crown winner.

 

I don't know if having Molesley as a favorite character would be that unpopular. Now, having Daisy as a favorite character, on the other hand...

[guilfoyleatpp]

I don't know if this is unpopular or not, but all of the North American characters (with the exception of Elizabeth Montgomery) have the same nasal accent.

 

The soldier who is supposed to be Patrick (Gordon? The amnesiac), the band singer, Cora's brother's valet...they all sound very similar. 

 

I guess this is how the Brits feel when they hear fake English accents on US shows.

[mightycrone]

I can't remember exactly when it happened, but near the end, Anna was inducing as many eyerolls as Denker and Daisy. 

[SusanSunflower]

My biggest shock in the finale was how different all the actors looked, make-up and hair in particular -- Brendan Coyle had some color in his cheeks and the twinkle was back in his eye ... Violet had dropped 20 years and Isobel at least 10 ... only Merton looked gray in the early scenes which disappeared in time for the happy ending ... It was as if everyone had been treated to a luxury restorative vacation between the end of season 6 and the finale  -- the absolute inconsistency from episode to episode of make-up and hair (and body padding) having been an ongoing gripe with this high-budget, top flight program. 

see also Anna's hair color -- omg -- and almost everyone's periodic deep zinc oxide level of pallor... see also Carson's girth and also that of Mrs. Hughes ... Oh and Violet's weight has been all over the place 

It was utterly fine for unremarkable Andy to be all studly in his undershirt up that ladder ... so what else is new 

Edited March 7, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[HoodlumSheep]

I love Spratt. And Spratt and Denker's whole frenemy (? Leans more towards enemies, but they at least seem to get along kimd of? Tolerate each other?). I don't care for Denker quite as much out of the two (she got the upperhand too many times with all her blackmailing), but I enjoyed their dynamic.

There, I said it!

[Spunkygal]

Me too! I told my sister earlier today that Spratt is my favorite. I love the way he delivers his lines and his facial expressions are hilarious. Plus, he obviously knows the Dowager Countess very well as evidenced when he told Denker that Her Ladyship hates to be predictable (this was after she complimented his articles and he was clearly not being fired.) loved it!

[Andorra]

My unpopular opinion is, that in season 6 the Make up department was not to it's former standard. The wigs were ugly and sometimes the men looked visibly painted. Especially in the racing scenes! I wonder if the people working there changed?

Edited March 8, 2016 by Andorra

[ShadowFacts]

My unpopular opinion is, that in season 6 the Make up department was not to it's former standard. The wigs were ugly and sometimes the men looked visibly painted. Especially in the racing scenes! I wonder if the people working there changed?

 

I agree.  I've been re-watching the series from the beginning, and I notice that Anna in particular was not wearing a wig to start with, and looked so much better.  Mrs. Hughes has had various wigs that were mostly unflattering.  For some reason Violet and Isobel's hair seem to be consistently good, but maybe that's because they wear hats almost always. 

[jschoolgirl]

I love Spratt. And Spratt and Denker's whole frenemy (? Leans more towards enemies, but they at least seem to get along kimd of? Tolerate each other?). I don't care for Denker quite as much out of the two (she got the upperhand too many times with all her blackmailing), but I enjoyed their dynamic.

There, I said it!

It could've been fun, but it got pretty excessive. I do love Spratt's expressions and line delivery.

[kassygreene]

I agree.  I've been re-watching the series from the beginning, and I notice that Anna in particular was not wearing a wig to start with, and looked so much better.  Mrs. Hughes has had various wigs that were mostly unflattering.  For some reason Violet and Isobel's hair seem to be consistently good, but maybe that's because they wear hats almost always. 

I  seem to recall from some behind the scenes clip in the last six years that Maggie Smith brought her own wigmaker.

[caligirl50]

 

The soldier who is supposed to be Patrick (Gordon? The amnesiac), the band singer, Cora's brother's valet...they all sound very similar.

 

The burned solider said to Edith, “...now I sound Canadian.” And I thought, “Actually, you don’t.” The actor is American and he sounded American!

The band singer clearly struggled to have the specific accent they wanted him to have.  He was from Chicago.  I think they were going for a Bobby Short character.  Lots of lilts.

Which brings me to Elizabeth McGovern.  She too goes back and forth but I think after all this time, she has managed to smooth out her American/Cosmopolitan lilts.  Also, after living in a country for so long, you do have a tendency to alter the way you speak.

 

Michelle Dockery was interviewed in the manners special and said how the producers made changes with how the actors spoke.  The real British 1920’s accents (very clipped) would have been silly to listen to. When she does an imitation (very well, by the way), she barely opens her mouth or moves her face.  It’s hilarious.

[helenamonster]

I agree.  I've been re-watching the series from the beginning, and I notice that Anna in particular was not wearing a wig to start with, and looked so much better.  Mrs. Hughes has had various wigs that were mostly unflattering.  For some reason Violet and Isobel's hair seem to be consistently good, but maybe that's because they wear hats almost always. 

 

I think JoFro always wore wigs, they just used to be better. She'd have to wear a wig in later seasons though, her real hair is too bright and obviously not natural enough to pass for someone at Anna's age, in that position, at that time period.

[Mrsjumbo]

The burned solider said to Edith, “...now I sound Canadian.” And I thought, “Actually, you don’t.” The actor is American and he sounded American!

The band singer clearly struggled to have the specific accent they wanted him to have. He was from Chicago. I think they were going for a Bobby Short character. Lots of lilts.

Which brings me to Elizabeth McGovern. She too goes back and forth but I think after all this time, she has managed to smooth out her American/Cosmopolitan lilts. Also, after living in a country for so long, you do have a tendency to alter the way you speak.

Michelle Dockery was interviewed in the manners special and said how the producers made changes with how the actors spoke. The real British 1920’s accents (very clipped) would have been silly to listen to. When she does an imitation (very well, by the way), she barely opens her mouth or moves her face. It’s hilarious.

I actually cringed when Cora thanked Thomas for saving Edith "from the faaaarrre". She has such a strange accent!

[JudyObscure]

I might not have thought so at the time, but I realize now that I liked the Denker-Spratt story because it took me to the Dowager's house which I loved, in some ways even more than Downton Abbey.  As the little tourist boy said to Donk, "Don't you have enough money for a comfy house?"  Violet had the best of both worlds, she could stroll over and gaze at that beautiful, breath taking, Abbey, then she could go home and be cozy in her warm, pretty drawing room with her jigsaw puzzles and her daily soap opera starring Spratt and Denker.

Edited March 10, 2016 by JudyObscure

[Driad]

I don't hate Daisy.  I don't agree with everything she has done, and she would not be my first choice as a friend, but I can empathize with her.  IIRC, Daisy's family gave her little education or affection, and probably did not supply good nutrition or medical care.  Since age 11 she has been working in a hierarchical system.  She began at the very bottom, likely carrying loads at the limit of her strength, and may still be in pain from old injuries. Probably some of the other servants took out their own hostilities on her.  Some people may come through such experiences optimistic and friendly, but some do not.  I can understand Daisy's suspiciousness and lack of social graces.  Hoping that she will feel more secure as time goes on. 

[JudyObscure]

Good points, Driad.  You've reminded me of an episode of the old "Upstairs Downstairs."  Someone was taken into the house, maid or immigrant, I can't remember which, and one of the regular maids was unfriendly to her and then absolutely freaked out when it was discovered that the new girl had lice.  It turned out that the regular maid had been raised in abject poverty and had an overwhelming fear of going backwards and returning to those conditions.  Daisy may have been insecure for some of the same reasons, and after the way everyone tried to force her to like William -- a person she had no attraction to at all -- then she may have been resistant to the slightest bit of pushiness from men forever afterward.  When she was the pursuant, she was in control.  Still, no excuses for being mean to Mrs.  Patmore who has put up with so much from the little minx.

[ShadowFacts]

These are all good points about Daisy.  She probably did feel mostly powerless in her life and maybe exercised the only power she felt she had.  Then she got intoxicated with ideas after being tutored by Miss Bunting.  I liked the sort of mother-daughter relationship she and Mrs. Patmore had forged.  In rewatching the early seasons, I was surprised that I had forgotten that Mrs. Patmore had been pretty harsh on Daisy early on.  She yelled at her and called her names quite a bit.  So the two of them have had their ups and downs, but I've never been able to hate Daisy.

[Mrsjumbo]

Yes, I really disliked mrs Pattmore in the early seasons- she was pretty impatient/mean with Daisy. Funny how my opinion changed, & mrs Pattmore became one of my favorite characters!

[whateverdgaf]

Mine is that although like a lot of people I disliked Henry and Mary's relationship, and I felt that Henry's character was underdeveloped, my main reason for disliking the ship was more due to my lack of interest in Mary than a dislike of Henry. Apart from that creepy scene on the stairs, I like Henry well enough. At least when he is interacting with people or talking about people other than Mary. I loved that he called Edith Edie, it makes me happy to think she has a friend in him.

In fact, it would have kind of cool if Henry became attracted to Edith (after all, she likes cars two). Then Tom can keep trying to fix Henry up with Mary whilst Henry thinks that Tom is setting him up with Edith. Edith just thinks Henry is being friendly and has no idea, and is too wrapped up in Bertie anyway to even consider getting with Henry but accidentally encourages him by being his friend, and Mary just thinks Henry is using Edith to make Mary jealous.

Romantic shenanigans are fun.

[AndySmith]

I'm not sure that qualifies as an unpopular opinion lol

[caligirl50]

I loved that he called Edith Edie

 

I love that you caught that too!  I thought it was so cute!!!!

 

I’ve watched the whole series over and over and over and over and I have to say some bad things about Carson.  I think he was likable in Season 1 and 2 but after that I hate how he is written.  The character got more and more stuck up and completely unsympathetic.  This last season he was insufferable.  I kept thinking, why the hell is she marrying this guy? 

Edited March 29, 2016 by caligirl50

[TheGreenKnight]

I agree. I liked him in the early seasons despite many character flaws, but it's like they made him worse towards the end. Why would they want us to hate him in the last series? Then again, they made pretty much all the guards for the old way into semi-villains this year that we would cheer against except for Robert, surprisingly. That said, I could still find a glimmer in my heart to enjoy Violet and be happy for Mary. Carson--no.

 

If Downton does get a movie, I hope they leave us on a positive note with Carson there since they didn't with the series (imo). Maybe he can become a more likable person in his retirement, when he doesn't have anyone to lord over anymore.

[slf]

I don't know how unpopular these opinions are but I didn't like Henry, Tony, or Charles.

 

Charles struck me as the rich and male version of Sarah Bunting; he came into someone else's home (in a professional capacity, no less) and refused to be gracious, arguing with and insulting just about everyone. I didn't think his little charade was cute, either; I was born into the third class, we were homeless when I was a kid, I've lived in terrible places with no electricity and even no food for long periods of time. If I met Charles Blake and he's all "your lot this" "your lot that" to the rich, implying without ever really saying that he's not one of them, and then it turns out he is? Yeah, I'm not responding politely. The idea that working for the Home Office made him different from the Crawleys, that it meant he'd earned his lifestyle, is absurd. Dude was going to inherit an enormous estate in Ulster because of a happy accident of birth, as they say, not because of anything he did. He was a male and born to the right family. End of story. I didn't buy the writing there, w/r/t Mary- I would've thought finding out he was actually an heir and had been lying to her would've been a turn off, after everything he said and did.

 

Tony was skeevy. Evelyn Napier always gets pegged as the boring one but imo that was Tony. Tony wasn't witty, kind, sophisticated, charming, or even handsome (eye of the beholder, I know). Then he became a bit of a stalker. I don't know anyone who thought he was a good guy much less good with Mary. Such a weird pairing though I did get a kick out of her dumping him because he was bad in the sack.

 

Yikes, Henry. Matthew Goode is skinnier than Michelle Dockery and looks like her brother. Physically they didn't work for me. Setting that aside, I don't recall a single scene before, what, the season finale were Mary indicated she was romantically interested in him at all. Like others have said, Tom seemed more into Henry than she did. And then Julian Fellowes gives an interview explaining why they chose Henry and it's because he was poor! If Mary had picked an aristocrat, he said, people would have questioned her motives. But if she married a guy with no money then, hey, it must be love. Terrible. Terrible. Like, if you're so afraid of people getting the wrong idea then write Mary actually being in love. Yikes.

 

With the exception of Matthew and Evelyn, JF liked to write Mary opposite really obnoxious and brash men. They were pushy, disregarded her wishes and opinions, lied to her, etc. Worst of all was how each of these men was hailed as being good partners for her because they weren't pushovers and wouldn't let Mary just walk all over them; the thing is though, despite trying to boss her around and force her to see their way of things, they all danced to her tune and competed with each other like dogs in a race, which is exactly what her vanity wanted. They'd have wrestled in the mud, if she'd wanted them to.

 

After Matthew, I would have paired her with Evelyn, or no one. Evelyn was always underappreciated, imo. He and Mary quietly carried on a friendship for at least a year before he was introduced, she chose him, he wanted her when her inheritance was in dispute and she'd likely get nothing, he was kind to everyone in her family (earning the respect off all of them; dude was mentioned fondly, by Cora, Robert, and Edith, in almost as many episodes as he appeared), was smart enough to suss out that she'd been "involved" with Pamuk, apparently called in favors to get someone at the Turkish embassy to tell him who wrote the letter and informed Mary, quietly and subtly let her know his feelings for her after Matthew's death but wasn't overt or pushy (she'd only been widowed for like 6 months, after all), etc. He was cute, rich, kind, perhaps shy but I don't believe that the man always has to be the dominant personality in a relationship, and he was, like Mary, trying to bridge the gap between their heritage/culture and the modern world. He loved all the same things as her but he was progressive. And even though he loved her, he wouldn't play her games. He wasn't going to keep pursuing her right after the Pamuk incident because she'd made it clear with her reaction that she'd had feelings for Pamuk; he was invited there to begin a courtship, not to jump through hoops. I liked that. During the final season when she arranged that dinner between her, him, Henry, and Tom he saw right through that; Mary, one woman, dining with three men, two of whom were in love with her. No bueno, girl. So dude invited a whopping three single noblewomen and Mary regrouped fast but it was nice to see the tight smile when she realized she wasn't going to be the center of attention.

 

According to the script book said, Mary perceived him leaving at the end of 1x03 without proposing to her as a rejection and that's what benched him. Which a) makes sense, given her vanity, but b) I think was a mistake in the long run and c) is hilarious given, again, how the others guys were seen as not being pushovers when in fact they were which is exactly why they were still options.

Edited April 17, 2016 by slf

[AndySmith]

Given what people have expressed on this board, I'd say they aren't unpopular opinions at all...I like Henry and feel like I am in the minority lol I mean on this board, saying you like Mary and Henry as a couple means you won't have many people joining you at your table...

 

After Matthew died, I'm not sure they could have had Mary marry a fellow aristocrat. It wouldn't have worked, in the long run. He wouldn't have moved to Downton because he'd probably have his own estate to attend to. Mary in turn wouldn't leave Downton to join him at his estate, since she was involved in running Downton. Also she wouldn't abandon George at Downton and go to another estate, and she certainly wouldn't raise a future earl on someone else's estate. So really, in hindsight, there was no Mary was going to marry an aristocrat.

Edited April 17, 2016 by AndySmith

[slf]

Given what people have expressed on this board, I'd say they aren't unpopular opinions at all...I like Henry and feel like I am in the minority lol I mean on this board, saying you like Mary and Henry as a couple means you won't have many people joining you at your table...

 

After Matthew died, I'm not sure they could have had Mary marry a fellow aristocrat. It wouldn't have worked, in the long run. He wouldn't have moved to Downton because he'd probably have his own estate to attend to. Mary in turn wouldn't leave Downton to join him at his estate, since she was involved in running Downton. Also she wouldn't abandon George at Downton and go to another estate, and she certainly wouldn't raise a future earl on someone else's estate. So really, in hindsight, there was no Mary was going to marry an aristocrat.

 

Heh, yeah, not here but when I was watching the show I wasn't at this board I was on a bunch of other sites and people there kept championing Tony, Charles, and Henry. Last night I went back a few pages to read other people's opinions here and was like, "oh wow, okay, so everyone else here disliked them too". Which was refreshing.

 

W/r/t the issues with marrying a fellow aristocrat, I get that, but one of the things I liked about Evelyn was when he told Cora that if it were up to him he'd never be away from Downton. Now, I love them, so of course I took that to mean that if he and Mary married he'd be willing to stay at Downton but YMMV. Plenty of aristocratic families have kept multiple estates and it's not like he'd be taking legal possession of it, since George is still the heir. It would come down to handling the challenges of managing two estates, and we never heard a hint of his estate being in trouble (in season one Cora said they were pretty rich and Violet tittered, and I'm sure he probably utilized the information he learned from studying the estates), so I don't see why Mary would object. I'd think she'd like the idea, personally; it means any children with her second husband would have their own estate to inherit (especially since there's no wonky entail happening over at the Napier household, as far as we know).

Edited April 17, 2016 by slf

[AndySmith]

Plenty of aristocratic families have kept multiple estates

 

Yes but those estates usually belong within that family line. It wasn't multiple families owning or co-owning various estates. I don't mean estate as in just the physical building, it's also the duties, history, title, and privilege that go along with the estate. You'd want to keep the heir growing up on the estate to instill a sense of love and appreciation for it, which we kind of saw with Mary, and how hard she and the rest of Crawleys fought to keep the estate with the family. Mary wouldn't want George to spend time away from Downton, just as it's possible Evelyn's family might felt the same about him. And there are other duties, symbolic and otherwise, that come with the title with regards to the towns/villages those estates are located in.

 

Evelyn and Mary could have been a good match, but given Mary's love for Downton and having George, it would never have worked for them in the long run. Like you said, though, mileage varies.

Edited April 17, 2016 by AndySmith

[slf]

Usually, but I recall reading about several situations like I'm proposing when I was reading up on Anne Boleyn and the Tudor dynasty (which granted isn't the same period) so I'm pretty sure it did happen. Some noblewomen with male children from a first marriage did remarry to a nobleman. I can't imagine those women were intentionally sought unless they were super rich or highly ranked because of exactly the challenges you describe, but it happened. I'd imagine it be a case of spending part of the year in one home and part of the year in another. With a trustworthy estate manager (etc, though his dad is still alive and running things and would be for likely a few decades), regular contact (phones and visits by car), and a lot of hard work, it's manageable. Again, it'd just come down to wanting it enough. And Mary was more than interested in marrying a nobleman so I think she'd be fine with it so long as it didn't negatively affect Downton.

 

But it doesn't matter, alas. JF didn't go that route.

 

Here's an unpopular opinion: I think JF's original plan of hooking Matthew up with Sybil actually made some sense, so long as they wouldn't have been the same ages they were in the show. Sybil was interested in politics and nursing (like most of the people in Isobel's family), she and Matthew had a spark during a scene in the episode where she gets hit at the rally, and I think they might've been a good fit together and run Downton well.

 

Of course, thinking about it and watching it are two separate things. I might've hated it, lol. I ended up liking Mary and Matthew more than I thought I would, after all.

Edited April 17, 2016 by slf

[AndySmith]

In most cases of remarriage, it was to a nobleman who wasn't the first born son, ie, he would inherit the estate. Which could have been a good compromise for Mary, I suppose.

[Llywela]

slf is right, it regularly happened that through a series of marriages, a single aristocratic family would acquire multiple estates - it was one of the ways in which the wealth of the family might increase. They would maintain one as their primary seat, but would do a circuit of the others through the year - a few weeks here, a couple of months there, summer at another, etc. Collecting multiple estates (and in some cases titles) for which they were primarily absentee landlords was seen as desirable among the aristocracy - but was much resented among the tenants, who preferred to have a landlord on hand to appeal to in case of need, rather than merely an estate agent whose job was to make as much money as possible for his employers.

 

In those cases, however, the union of those estates generally came about when the heir/owner of the primary family married the heiress of an estate for which there was no direct male heir.

[AndySmith]

So George probably wouldn't have made it a desirable union.

[slf]

But undesirable for whom? Usually, it would've been the man's family that objected but that wouldn't have been the case here since Evelyn was mad for Mary. George's inheritance couldn't be threatened, nor could the inheritance of any children they had. A marriage between Evelyn and Mary might not have worked for one reason or another, tho I don't think so, but George and the estates wouldn't be that much of an issue.
 

 

 

Collecting multiple estates (and in some cases titles) for which they were primarily absentee landlords was seen as desirable among the aristocracy - but was much resented among the tenants, who preferred to have a landlord on hand to appeal to in case of need, rather than merely an estate agent whose job was to make as much money as possible for his employers.

 

This is what I think would be the biggest concern for both of them. "Can I effectively fulfil my duties to my estate and to the tenants?" 

 

Anywhere else this might be an unpopular opinion but: I never saw Edith as a victim of anything other than herself. She spent so much time trying to beat Mary at being Mary, only chasing after men that wanted Mary, etc, and she basically shot herself in the foot. Once she started - and I realize I sound like some 90s life coach here - being the best Edith she could be she was actually kind of cool. But I never saw her as being bullied by Mary; she'd try to hurt Mary verbally but she just didn't have the wit to do it, whereas Mary inherited Violet's sharp tongue. Her intent was always to do as much damage as Mary she just couldn't pull it off. Also, because I liked Sybil and Mary I was okay with the show never fully exploring the fallout of the Pamuk scandal but I do wish Edith had at least realized that, while briefly chasing off Strallan, Mary didn't use the nuclear option (which Edith did). Outing Edith to their parents would've had a very different consequence for her; she was always seen as a victim of Mary's, the forgotten second child. But if they'd known she'd snitched, risking not only Mary's future but her's and Sybil's as well, they wouldn't have looked at her the same.

Edited April 17, 2016 by slf

[AndySmith]

Usually, it would've been the man's family that objected but that wouldn't have been the case here since Evelyn was mad for Mary

 

Except we never knew what his family thought of Mary. They might have just wanted him to find someone less complicated than Mary (or rather the baggage that came with Mary), marry her, and start popping out future heirs. As much as I am a fan of Mary, it's a bit much that he was still pining away after her 10 years later. You'd think he'd have moved on and found someone else.

 

It would just be awkward with George because Mary would have to take him with her to Evelyn's estate whenever she would be with Evelyn, which would probably be at least half of the year, or she'd have to leave him at Downton. None of which not only would Robert, Cora, or Violet approve of, but i doubt Mary would be ok with that. And even if he says was ok with moving to Downton permanently, I doubt his own family would be ok with that either.

[slf]

Well, Mary was seriously considering Charles Blake once she learned he had his own estate so, canon-wise, Mary wasn't that opposed to the idea. I sincerely doubt Charles Blake would've given up his estate so this is the exact scenario Mary would've known she'd be facing, too. I think partially it comes down to what we might do versus what they might do. George wouldn't have school in the traditional sense like we did, he'd have tutors, his playmates would've been the girls and local children, so there wouldn't be as much issue with uprooting him for a few months out of the year like there would be now. And even now there are military families and families that vacation around the world for the summer, etc.

 

I'd be surprised if his dad is that big an influence. We know his mother died a year before the series began and there was no mention of siblings at all, so I got the feeling it was him and his dad (possibly cousins around somewhere). His dad is spoken of in the show as a quiet man more into horse racing than anything else and known for being a boring man (a line many fans mistook as referring to Evelyn). If his dad was going to exert influence I'd think it would've been with the engagement that he called off in season one, which was a huge deal back then. Enormous deal, I was amused they had Mary ignorant of it since there's just about no way there wasn't gossip about it. Maybe his dad was pressuring him, who knows, but Evelyn told Cora in season one that he preferred to marry for love which still seemed to be the case in later seasons. If anyone was pressuring him they weren't successful.

Edited April 17, 2016 by slf

[AndySmith]

Mary and Charles would have had the same problems in the long run, regardless of whether or not Mary was considering marrying him, canon-wise. In the end, I still have my opinion and you have yours, lets leave it at that.

[Llywela]

It would just be awkward with George because Mary would have to take him with her to Evelyn's estate whenever she would be with Evelyn, which would probably be at least half of the year

For an aristocratic family owning more than one estate, that would be considered completely normal. The Crawleys seem to spend more time at home at Downton than many of their class would!

[AndySmith]

Yeah but those estates all belong to the Earldom of Grantham. Downton isn't just a building. When I say estate, I don't mean just the bricks and mortars, I mean the symbolism, title, heritage, etc, that goes along with the "estate". The Crawleys would be taking George along to other houses that THEY own, not to some other peer's home/estate/mansion/whatever you want to call the buildings these people own.

 

And yes, I do realize there is a certain irony to that, since none of the Crawleys seem to be all that familiar with the family history, but still.

 

The Crawleys seem to spend more time at home at Downton than many of their class would!

 

Well, that was mostly artificial plotting by JF to keep the series going to keep the action at Downton, much like Edith not permanently moving to London after she inherited the apartment and business from Gregson.

Edited April 18, 2016 by AndySmith

[Llywela]

Yes, and if Mary had married Evelyn and split her time between Downton and his estate and probably a London base, they would still be spending their time at estates and houses that they own - and I too am talking about more than just bricks and mortar buildings. Like I said, multiple estates and absentee landlords were completely normal. Robert might prefer it if his heir lived at Downton full time to learn all the ins and outs of that particular estate, but that doesn't give him the final say, since George is Mary's son, and it wouldn't be the end of the world if he didn't - and quite frankly, George isn't going to be there full time whatever happens, he'll be sent off to boarding school for long chunks of the year as soon as he's old enough, because that's also considered completely normal among this class.

 

But this debate is completely academic anyway, since Mary married Henry not Evelyn!

Edited April 18, 2016 by Llywela

[AndySmith]

True, I just don't see it.

 

Back on topic: I didn't hate Richard Carlisle (though that might be because I really like the actor, especially due to Game of Thrones), even though the show kept telling us we were supposed to hate him.

Edited April 18, 2016 by AndySmith

[Roseanna]

Charles struck me as the rich and male version of Sarah Bunting; he came into someone else's home (in a professional capacity, no less) and refused to be gracious, arguing with and insulting just about everyone. I didn't think his little charade was cute, either; I was born into the third class, we were homeless when I was a kid, I've lived in terrible places with no electricity and even no food for long periods of time. If I met Charles Blake and he's all "your lot this" "your lot that" to the rich, implying without ever really saying that he's not one of them, and then it turns out he is? Yeah, I'm not responding politely. The idea that working for the Home Office made him different from the Crawleys, that it meant he'd earned his lifestyle, is absurd. Dude was going to inherit an enormous estate in Ulster because of a happy accident of birth, as they say, not because of anything he did. He was a male and born to the right family. End of story. I didn't buy the writing there, w/r/t Mary- I would've thought finding out he was actually an heir and had been lying to her would've been a turn off, after everything he said and did.

 

I remember and interpreted these scenes differently. It was Mary who asked about Blake's job and when he answered truthfully that it was to ensure that the British population got enough food (which was a decisive factor during the war) and not help the great estates, she became angry like a child, refusing to understand that the government has responsibility for the whole country, not to help people born with privileges who lost them through heir own stupidity.

If Blake had really been impolite, Robert would surely have got angry, but he didn't. 

Besides, like Edith remarked, Blake refused to fall for Mary as she was used that men did even (or because) when she was first impolite to them (as she was later towards Henry in Brancaster). 

 

As for Blake not telling the truth about his inheritance - that is a common stuff in love stories in order to "prove" that one loves a person, not his title or fortune. Irl Crawleys would have known it as well as Bertie's position as a heir presumptive.         

Edited April 23, 2016 by Roseanna