S03.E10: Left Behind

[KirkB]

What I didn't really buy was Felicity and Diggle accepting Oliver's dead solely on Malcolm's word and a bloody sword. Malcolm said there was no way to access the ravine, something he was dead wrong about, since we saw Maseo skipping down the ravine. And Felicity and Diggle know this cheerful dude named Barry who can probably access any place on the planet if he wants to, so. I'm gonna have to try and fanwank why the hell didn't Felicity get Malcolm to tell her the exact coordinates of the ravine, so she could hack and point a satellite, or send a drone with a camera right there, while she was on the phone with Caitlin and Cisco, and Barry was already on his way. But none of that happened because the plot dictated that Felicity and Diggle had to believe Malcolm. Uh-huh.

 

 

That's a good point. For all they know, him having a bloody sword could mean MALCOLM stabbed Oliver on his way back to the world's most accessible secret lair and that's why he hasn't returned. But if Malcolm ran off and came back so quickly, saying "I checked where they were fighting" why wouldn't Felicity get in his face and say "Tell me the coordinates!" Even though she certainly wouldn't want to see Oliver's broken body (which she obviously wouldn't but that's another point entirely) between satellites and Barry she could get proof and/or him. Given all their resources it is rather nonsensical to think they don't at least try. I get grief and not thinking straight, but come on. 

[dtissagirl]

That's a good point. For all they know, him having a bloody sword could mean MALCOLM stabbed Oliver on his way back to the world's most accessible secret lair and that's why he hasn't returned. But if Malcolm ran off and came back so quickly, saying "I checked where they were fighting" why wouldn't Felicity get in his face and say "Tell me the coordinates!" Even though she certainly wouldn't want to see Oliver's broken body (which she obviously wouldn't but that's another point entirely) between satellites and Barry she could get proof and/or him. Given all their resources it is rather nonsensical to think they don't at least try. I get grief and not thinking straight, but come on.

Yup. The problem they had is the entire episode crumbles if they don't believe Malcolm. If they doubt him and access that ravine, either 1. they find Oliver's body and then have to deal with that instead of screwing up with Brick to make Laurel happen. Or 2. they access the ravine AFTER Maseo retrieves the body, and then the episode is about WHERE'S THE BODY.

[steelyis]

Yeah, I think that other big light switch that was flipped at the end of this episode was already talked out by the time we saw it.  It's like BC shows up and instead of fanfare there was a collective sigh.

 

 

That's exactly what I did too! I sighed and said, "Whatever."

[Menrva]

I've really appreciated everyone's insights on this episode, especially since I couldn't watch it live. I agree with those who were underwhelmed - not feeling it.

 

Just a few observations:

 

Jesus, Roy has a lot of freaking buckles on his costume! Maybe Laurel stole some from his?

 

I didn't totally hate Laurel. I guess that's the highest praise I can offer. But the justice you can't run from line? Cringeworthy. I was inspired to write my own scene.

 

Bad guy: Who the hell are you?

Laurel: I'm the justice you can't run from.

(Bad guy pulls out pogo stick, jumps on and hops away.)

Laurel: Hey, wait!

[gazebo]

So, so glad to see that Oliver survived!  I thought Show was going to go like, three episodes in before we found out the fate of Oliver Queen.  I'm glad for the quick reveal.  I knew Maseo was going to save Oliver.  I was surprised to see that it was Maseo's wife who saved Oliver.  Is she a witch?

 

I both like and loathe Malcolm who acted like he was so sympathetic and then readily admits that he was the one that sent Oliver to his death.  JB does a good job in that one scene.  He really is a show stealer.  Team Arrow should've captured Malcolm right then and there and..... beat him up or something.  Seriously, it's time they changed the locks or combination to the Arrow Lair.  So ridiculous that Malcolm can get in and out just like that!

 

I hope Thea will not agree with Malcolm and run off with him.  Oh, poor Thea!  She's still as Clueless as ever!  She didn't want anyone to lie to her anymore and yet they are still lying to her about Ollie.  Girl needs to get a clue real quick!

 

Laurel looks really great in that Canary costume. 

 

I'm starting to really enjoy Brandon Routh on this Show.  I think he'd make a good hero.

 

Poor, poor Felicity!  I think she's grieving too much to do Team Arrow any good now.  It's good that she saved Diggle and Roy's lives by giving the bad guys a way out this time, but she just can't keep doing that!  I think she should take a long vacation and get her thoughts together.  I felt very sorry for her.  Her grief was palpable.

[KirkB]

I figured we'd get a couple of glimpses of a mysterious someone in this episode, getting to and possibly tending to Oliver, but nothing specific telling us the audience he is alive. I mean, we'd obviously know he is, just that they might not be explicit. Then nothing (but flashbacks) in the next episode until the very end, when we see Oliver's hand move or something. And it takes the third ep for him to actually regain full consciousness. I get he's probably going to be too injured to immediately go running back to Starling but by having him alive and conscious now, we're going to be left wondering why he doesn't at least call Felicity to tell her he's alive. I guess Maseo and Tatsu don't have cell phones or else there is no coverage on the side of Ra's Sacrificial Mountain. 

Edited January 22, 2015 by KirkB

[Velocity23]

 

Fuck you, you idiots. I love you Glen Winter

[apinknightmare]

So, no one's mentioned this, but am I the only one who thinks that Laurel took the news that Oliver's dead way too easily? She didn't even seem remotely upset by it at all. I know they don't mean the same thing to each other that they did when the Gambit went down, and maybe she just doesn't have any more tears to cry for Oliver Queen, but I did think that was strange. Did they purposely downplay this in order to give Felicity "losing the man she loves feels" spotlight, or maybe it was to cement her single-minded focus on the buckles? 

 

Not criticizing her, I just think it's interesting. 

Edited January 22, 2015 by apinknightmare

[catrox14]

 

Jesus, Roy has a lot of freaking buckles on his costume! Maybe Laurel stole some from his?

 

I think those actually serve a purpose and are not on the inside of his legs.  The buckles are for the holsters for his ammunition.  And the buckle is on the front part of the leg.  I see no practical reason for Laurel's costume to have ALL the buckles that apparently serve no purpose that I can discern. She would need maybe one pocket for the Canary Cry devices. And she would need a holster for the baton but the long stick goes where??

Edited January 22, 2015 by catrox14

[apinknightmare]

And she would need a holster for the baton but the long stick goes where??

 

I think that thing would be an actual bitch to run with. I liked Sara's collapsible bo staff. They should've just had her keep that, I mean...she's getting the rest of it. Maybe swinging a heavy baton (I can't remember its actual name) is easier for a novice and doesn't require a whole lot of skill? IDK.

[catrox14]

That's exactly what I did too! I sighed and said, "Whatever."

 

I literally rolled my eyes and shouted. 'GET OUT OF THE LAIR, LAUREL'.  Yet when Malcolm showed up in the shadows I was all.."YAAAAS" because it was badass and Malcolm has the street cred to invade their space unwelcome and unannounced. Amazing what a good characterization of a villain can elicit vs the bad characterization of a "hero"  I hate Malcolm but I love to hate h

[Carrie Ann]

I have to admit I'm in the group who doesn't enjoy angsty Felicity, not because I don't want her to have real feelings and struggle, but eh I'm not the EBR fangirl that most people who like Felicity are, I think she's winning and has fantastic chemistry with SA, but I just think she's really kind of terrible at crying. And because I think she's terrible she does thing with her voice where it sounds like she's HOLDING it all in, but then the "break" never comes even when it's supposed to come, its like I can feel her trying to make herself cry and she just can NOT do it. 

[...]

The big surprise to me for this episode was how much I liked Roy, and how good a job acting Colton Haynes did. I liked that he was the one that wanted to face reality about Oliver and tell the truth to Thea, I think that is weirdly true to his poor kid background, he doesn't really have any time for bullshit, when reality is smacking him in the face. Good job Colton!

 

These two points are sort of tied up for me, in that I half-agree with you about EBR's emotional stuff--it's hit or miss for me. I think her comedic chops are great and I think in general she has great screen presence, but she doesn't yet have the level of emotional nuance that Stephen has, for one example. Absolutely the most I've enjoyed Felicity and EBR this season was in 308 (and Flash 108), because the writing for her was fun and funny and played to her strengths. Even the "Get up, Oliver," part was the kind of subtle emotion I think she does well. Maybe it really is just crying/holding back tears that is the problem area.

 

Now back to Colton: the reason Roy is working for me this season is that the show has realized what CH does well, and they're using that. They've limited his emotional stuff, and the few moments he's had have worked for me. Actually worked better because they're rare, and because he's presented as stoic and sarcastic, so when he says something like, "Don't abandon me," it hits harder. So now, Roy is this pragmatic kid, sarcastic but kind, and his maturity feels appropriate for what he's been through and what Oliver's been teaching him. It's the kind of slow, subtle storytelling that I wish they would have implemented for their other new superheroes.

 

But anyway, something I wish they would have done this episode that wouldn't have stretched any of the actors too far is to go to an act break with Team Arrow crying together. Not like, a big cry huddle, but you know, the type of thing people do when they've just learned a loved one is dead. Instead they just showed them all sitting in their various positions around the lair. I just...I looked back at some of the spoilers and MG said that 310 would be full of tears and we'd all need Kleenex, and yeah, not so much. I felt a little tug in my throat at the "still think of myself as his bodyguard" bit, but that's it. MG also said that 311 wouldn't be so tearful, so yeah, that confirms my suspicion that we're just skipping over the grief.

[TrueMyth]

I'm still marveling at how insanely awesome I thought the turning off the lights thing was, and I think it's even more symbolic than closing the chapter on Felicity turning on the foundry lights in 201.

 

I agree.  They even had her say something in the first foundry scene about "keeping the lights on" for Oliver.  Given the number of times Oliver has sat moping in the dark and the fact that there were lights still on down there, I was fine with it.  Honestly, the bigger problem I have is that the "big switch" has been established to be on ground level, but Felicity was shown heading up the stairs before the lights went off.  But then, maybe they installed a light switch at the top, what with the number of times baddies like to stop by the super secret lair.  Not all of them are as kind as Malcolm to declare his presence with an open door.

 

I think Felicity's "stop everyone I care about from super-ing" stance is interesting, because it's identical in many ways to the classic male-hero, mainpain trope where the hero side-lines/lies to/cotton-balls the women in his life in the name of "protecting them."  Often that move smacks of it being less about protecting the girl and more about protecting the guy's feelings.  It's crap logic, especially when it begins to cast light on the female being a mere extension of the man, unable to make her own calls.

 

One of the things I've always loved about Felicity and Oliver is that she always, always, always stands firmly against Oliver when he pulls that crap on her (it helps that she's in on the secret and he's not just out-right lying to her).  The whole "I don't want to be safe.  I want to be with you.  And the others.  Unsafe," is a delightful part of Felicity's bravery and one of the reasons I believe Oliver loves her.

 

So to see Felicity pull the "protective" crap on others does not sit well with me ultimately, but for two things: 1) it is something that female characters rarely get to pull and 2) At least she tells them straight to their faces (both Dig and Roy, and Ray) instead of sabotaging things from within in the long run or lying to them.  I think male characters often get a pass with this behavior from some due to the patriarchal aspects of our society.  It's part of the reason Laurel not telling Lance about Sara rings so discordant, but Oliver's continued lying to Thea is merely irritating to most.  And ultimately, Felicity is willing to let everyone make their choice; she's just refusing to facilitate any more.  She isn't taking away anyone's agency.

 

And finally, this is not the first time she's used remote door locks to save lives.  Back in "Dodger" she does the same thing to Oliver, except then she's trying to save a scumbag she's never met who has a young son.  From her perspective in this episode, she's saving two people who are probably on her "top 5 people" list (particularly with the speed that others are dropping off of that list).

[Guest]

Lol @ people criticizing Felicity.  Anyone who doesn't like her will leap at the chance to insult her. That's what happens when you're one of the most popular characters. Whatevs. She either showed too much emotion and wasn't the usual 'comic relief' or she wasn't emotional enough. They can't have it both ways.

 

Seriously though, I understand why people thought her turning off the lights was rude but cut the girl some slack. She's grieving. I practically saw every stage of grief from her last night. She just didn't know what to do with herself or her emotions. And I actually think the turning off the lights was less about what Felicity might do and more about the writers/EP's shouting 'LOOK AT US, LOOK AT THIS SYMBOLISM, Y'KNOW, BECAUSE SHE HARNESSES THE LIGHT INSIDE OLIVER BUT HE'S NOT HERE, OH AND ALSO SHE WAS THE ONE WHO TURNED THE LIGHTS ON IN 201 SO THE PARALLELS, OMG WE ARE SO CLEVER, LOOK AT OUR CLEVERNESS.' 

 

I'm honestly not going to hold that against her character. The EP's chose to do something for dramatic effect without considering if it's something her character would do in the first place. And to be honest, I don't think she would have done that.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Guest

[apinknightmare]

These two points are sort of tied up for me, in that I half-agree with you about EBR's emotional stuff--it's hit or miss for me. I think her comedic chops are great and I think in general she has great screen presence, but she doesn't yet have the level of emotional nuance that Stephen has, for one example. Absolutely the most I've enjoyed Felicity and EBR this season was in 308 (and Flash 108), because the writing for her was fun and funny and played to her strengths. Even the "Get up, Oliver," part was the kind of subtle emotion I think she does well. Maybe it really is just crying/holding back tears that is the problem area.

 

Now back to Colton: the reason Roy is working for me this season is that the show has realized what CH does well, and they're using that. They've limited his emotional stuff, and the few moments he's had have worked for me. Actually worked better because they're rare, and because he's presented as stoic and sarcastic, so when he says something like, "Don't abandon me," it hits harder. So now, Roy is this pragmatic kid, sarcastic but kind, and his maturity feels appropriate for what he's been through and what Oliver's been teaching him. It's the kind of slow, subtle storytelling that I wish they would have implemented for their other new superheroes.

 

But anyway, something I wish they would have done this episode that wouldn't have stretched any of the actors too far is to go to an act break with Team Arrow crying together. Not like, a big cry huddle, but you know, the type of thing people do when they've just learned a loved one is dead. Instead they just showed them all sitting in their various positions around the lair. I just...I looked back at some of the spoilers and MG said that 310 would be full of tears and we'd all need Kleenex, and yeah, not so much. I felt a little tug in my throat at the "still think of myself as his bodyguard" bit, but that's it. MG also said that 311 wouldn't be so tearful, so yeah, that confirms my suspicion that we're just skipping over the grief.

 

I agree with you about Emily. I don't think she's the best crier, and I think that her stoicism is the issue. IMO she's fine when she's able to let loose with the actual emotion, for example, I liked her fight with Donna. She was crying and angry and I bought it. The nuance, like you wrote, just isn't there yet. But it doesn't take me out of the scene or anything, and I still feel for her even though the execution isn't always that great. She is best when she's allowed to be lighter, but I think she'll get better as time goes on.

 

And yeah, I wasn't really moved by any of this. And it's not really the fault of the acting or the writing necessarily, but I know Oliver's not dead, so the emotional stakes just aren't there. It's difficult to be moved by any of this when I know Oliver's out there and alive and going to be coming back in two episodes. 

[steelyis]

So, no one's mentioned this, but am I the only one who thinks that Laurel took the news that Oliver's dead way too easily? She didn't even seem remotely upset by it at all. I know they don't mean the same thing to each other that they did when the Gambit went down, and maybe she just doesn't have any more tears to cry for Oliver Queen, but I did think that was strange. Did they purposely downplay this in order to give Felicity "losing the man she loves feels" spotlight, or maybe it was to cement her single-minded focus on the buckles? 

 

Not criticizing her, I just think it's interesting. 

 

 

I think it's because she doesn't believe Oliver is dead. And I don't blame her. I'd need to see a body after all miracle resurrections this show has had.

[doesntworkonwood]

I have mixed feelings about this episode, and I think that's mainly because of the comments that I've read on here. 

 

I do think that the characters were in character (sort of). What I mean by that is that I understand both Felicity's and Diggle's motivations, and I do think that there is previous backing for their actions, but as the situation was a bit contrived it's quite difficult to seperate that from what they did. 

 

For example, when Oliver went missing after season 1, Felicity and Diggle searched for him and found him, and they spent months doing that, so why wouldn't they physically search for him? Especially when Malcolm (sort of) told them where he was? Oh yeah, because they need to believe that he's dead for plot reasons. 

 

I think that because every other reaction stemmed from this, it was frustrating. 

 

I don't think Felicity was out of character. As someone said above when Cooper 'died' Felicity reinvented herself and hid herself. She worked under a supervisor as tech support, and I think she's just hiding herself again. 

 

One thing I liked was that Felicity made a mistake, and a pretty big one at that. I liked that she was wrong. A lot of the time, people like to see Felicity as 'perfect' or a 'mary-sue', and she's not that. She has said some mean things, and she has done some things wrong. And the best part of her mistake, I understood where she was coming from even though I didn't really think it was the right decision.

However, if she continues to be wrong, especially about Malcolm, I really won't be happy because this episode proved just how right she is with her reactions to him. 

 

I liked Diggles scenes. He has been sidelined this season, and because we don't really get to see his thoughts because he's either mentoring, being quite stoic, or being funny. It was a nice insight, especially because I was able to focus more on him in those scenes rather than anyone else, and as Diggle is one of my favourite characters I like that. 

 

But because all of that came from a place of contrivance, it did feel off. 

 

The episode was choppy. I hate what they're doing with Thea. I still hate what they're doing with Ray.

The villain doesn't seem like a three episode villain (but maybe that's because I'm used to Oliver being competent.

I'm not really looking forward to future episodes, but I'm going to watch because I'm curious about Oliver. 

[blixie]

 

Maybe it really is just crying/holding back tears that is the problem area.

 

The only moment that choked me up at all was what someone else mentioned, her finding the door to the Lair open, rushing in full of HOPE and needing to believe Oliver was home. Because that's Felicity she is the light, the hope, the belief and that is what is crushing, despite her bravado she clearly did NOT believe that Oliver survived.

 

 

I think it's because she doesn't believe Oliver is dead. And I don't blame her. I'd need to see a body after all miracle resurrections this show has had.

This, it is interesting because it's almost like the writers *thought* about *Laurel* who she is, and what she's experienced while they wrote her in this episode. Of the people in this episode (Felicity, Diggle, Roy) none of them has been in this position before, aka experienced Oliver's "death", Laurel has had it happen. TWICE, with Oliver and Sara, the only reason she buys Sara is because she saw the body (and dragged it all over town).

 

 

For example, when Oliver went missing after season 1, Felicity and Diggle searched for him and found him, and they spent months doing that, so why wouldn't they physically search for him? Especially when Malcolm (sort of) told them where he was? Oh yeah, because they need to believe that he's dead for plot reasons.

 

Right why do they buy it from Malcolm? Because the plot won't work if they don't. Taken together with Oliver has "died" before yet not been actually "dead", and that they explicitly revealed his near immediate resurrection and yeah there are no stakes there are only plot points on the Slow Olicity's Roll train.

[Guest]

I'm trying to tread carefully here but I thought Laurel was ok for most of this episode. How she was at the beginning, in the courtroom doing her actual job, is how I wanted her to be this season - helping the team the way she knows how. 

 

I would have preferred if Diggle shared his 'moment' with Felicity or Lyla but I understood why it happened that way and I felt like it was more about Diggle than about Laurel which was good. I am all about Diggle and I'm not even sorry about it.

 

But once again, they lost me when she suited up. First, did they just have that suit lying around? It's bad enough that Roy turned up in 301 in a shiny new leather outfit but even then I could reason that it's been five months and obviously they had one made for him (later confirmed in the 2.5 comics). But seriously, she just happened to find a shiny new costume with a billion annoying buckles just when she needed it? Come on. Ridiculous. I would have preferred if she just used Sara's mask and wig and patched together her own costume like she did when she attacked that guy earlier in the season. It would have been more realistic to me but that's not what they want, clearly.

 

And that "I'm the justice you can't run from" line is still as laughable now as it was when I first heard about it. I don't think laughing was the reaction they were going for but oh well. Couldn't be helped. Honestly, this whole storyline is way too soon. I'm not convinced and I don't think I ever will be. 

Edited January 22, 2015 by Guest

[apinknightmare]

This, it is interesting because it's almost like the writers *thought* about *Laurel* who she is, and what she's experienced while they wrote her in this episode. Of the people in this episode (Felicity, Diggle, Roy) none of them has been in this position before, aka experienced Oliver's "death", Laurel has had it happen. TWICE, with Oliver and Sara, the only reason she buys Sara is because she saw the body (and dragged it all over town).

 

If it is because she really doesn't believe he's dead, I wish they'd made this more clear in the show. I can get why she would believe that (for the reasons you stated), but the non-reaction coupled with her grilling Diggle about whether or not they were going to continue just made it seem like she skipped over any emotion she might have had about it because she was so single-mindedly focused on putting that suit on - which is something that I also easily buy given what we've seen of her this season. 

 

 

Right why do they buy it from Malcolm? Because the plot won't work if they don't. Taken together with Oliver has "died" before yet not been actually "dead", and that they explicitly revealed his near immediate resurrection and yeah there are no stakes there are only plot points on the Slow Olicity's Roll train.

 

Felicity also hasn't gotten a hit on the facial recognition search she was running on the hacked satellites. She said the second he moved she'd get a hit (or something along those lines). So, knowing that he went off to fight the most dangerous man any of them have ever faced (and his ruthlessness, etc. has been built into the lore of this show, so I get why they'd believe he's awful), he hasn't come back, they haven't heard from him, there's a sword with his blood all over it, and Malcolm said he fell into an unaccessible ravine combined with the fact that she hasn't gotten a hit on the searches she's running, I don't think it's weird at all that they believed him. Yeah, the plot wouldn't work if they didn't, but I also think the reasons for them believing him are, well, believable.

Edited January 22, 2015 by apinknightmare

[blixie]

 

I wish they'd made this more clear

 

She said the exact words that Oliver has come back before. I don't know how much more clear it could be. Coupled with her own issues where she's way way way to hung up on becoming Sara, I don't find this unclear and quite a good bit of characterization, especially where Laurel is concerned.

 

 

Yeah, the plot wouldn't work if they didn't, but I also think the reasons for them believing him are, well, believable.

 

I have no problem with them believing Oliver has met a bad end, I mean the man went to a win or die confrontation with one of the most notorious assassins in the world, and he ain't back in town all I WON. But I still find their lack of diligence in confirming it FIRST HAND, and relying on information from Malcom to be not believable. Like oh yeah you know we were all holding out, then Malcolm Truth Seer, Blood Sword deliverer cleared it up for us. It's okay we can find different things believable or not. It's more about the execution of the episode and the season, that undermined this episode for me: they continue to rush through things that need to be fleshed out, they continue to cram everything under the sun into an episode including the damn flashbacks into every episode making them all over stuffed and underwhelming.

 

I guess an episode where the team falls apart only to be showed up by the possibly psychotic sister of the Real Black Canary just was not my jam.

[apinknightmare]

She said the exact words that Oliver has come back before. I don't know how much more clear it could be. Coupled with her own issues where she's way way way to hung up on becoming Sara, I don't find this unclear and quite a good bit of characterization, especially where Laurel is concerned.

 

She said that before they had the sword, when the team was still worried about him being missing and she was trying to give hope to people who were losing it. There was no statement about her still believing after Diggle told her he knew she didn't want to believe it, but Oliver wasn't coming back, only her insistence on wanting to know whether they were going to continue with their mission or not. So yeah, it could be more clear. 

[bethy]

She said the exact words that Oliver has come back before.

 

 

But that was before they had "confirmation" from Malcolm that Oliver really is "dead," right? I felt like her response to Diggle was in keeping with someone who was helping a friend who was truly mourning. And I think if she didn't also believe that Oliver was dead, she might have reacted differently? Maybe before or during the hug reminding Diggle gently THAT MALCOLM MERLYN IS A LYING LIAR WHO LIES and they shouldn't give up hope? I agree that her continuing to believe Oliver could still be alive would be in character given her experience.  That scene just didn't play that way to me. 

 

ETA: Or what apinknightmare said.  :)

Edited January 22, 2015 by bethy

[statsgirl]

Stephen Amell said that there were two episodes where we would see Oliver only in flashbacks.  We saw Hong Kong flashbacks but now I'm wondering if the scenes with Maseo and Tatsu weren't flashbacks also, put in through the episode to keep the suspense going as to who was taking him and was he still alive.  It makes more sense that Maseo found Oliver as soon as Ra's left than that Oliver was lying in the snow for five days, mortally wounde..

 

This is the first time we've seen Felicity and Diggle in a scene with Malcollm Merlyn, and Laurel actually interacting with them, as opposed to talking to Oliver while Diggle, Felicity and Roy are in the room.   Now that Oliver isn't there, it struck me how much he acts as a barrier between the people in the two different parts of his life, Oliver Queen and The Arrow, getting together.

 

More Felicity confronting Malcolm Merlyn, please.

 

Man, you guys aren't selling me on watching this one. lol. I can't watch them slowly destroy Felicity's awesomeness. Someone give me a good reason to devote the hour.

I think she's still awesome and EBR did a really good job of grieving (I was worried about that based on Sara and Cooper's deaths but she stepped up here).  Turning off the lights is completely understandable given her post traumatic stress condition, seeing Diggle and Roy in danger of dying on top of Sara and Oliver. I just wish the opportunity for Laurel to dress up hadn't come from Felicity's action.  (It didn't really because Diggle could have told Laurel he was going to keep fighting but it looked like it did.)

 

It's just kind of sucky. And the Felicity vs Laurel attitude is depressing and boring and pretty anti-woman

 

I think most of the problem could be solved by having room on the show for two women in Oliver's life (not including Thea who is his sister), and that's wholly on the writers.  There's no excuse for having Oliver, Diggle, Roy and now Ray being guy superheroes but in terms of screen time, it's either Felicity or Laurel..  

 

I'm still marveling at how insanely awesome I thought the turning off the lights thing was, and I think it's even more symbolic than closing the chapter on Felicity turning on the foundry lights in 201.

This show has gone out of its way to say Felicity is the light in Oliver's life, from winky editing that cut to Felicity whenever someone told Oliver he needed light to offset his darkness, to using practical lights in big emotional Oliver/Felicity moments like the I believe in you hug, and the kiss.

So now Felicity believes Oliver is dead and she turns off the light in a hugeass symbolic gesture for both Dig and Roy standing there alive BECAUSE SHE SAVED THEM, and to us in the audience, who have been told time and time again that Felicity = light, but now she's not anymore.

This is so awesome, it bear repeating.

 

 

I never would've guessed anyone had a problem with Laurel turning off the TV in the first ep either. To me, Oliver treated her like shit, she knew people judged her, gossiped about her, and thought she was a fool.

Would people even have remembered that she had been dating Oliver Queen five years earlier?  If they mentioned Sara at all, they would have said she was a friend of his who was also on board when the ship went down with the Queens and all the crew.  Maybe a TMZ would have dug up that Laurel had dated him too but that looked like an ordinary news station.

Edited January 22, 2015 by statsgirl

[Guest]

What do we think about Malcolm? I find it a little hard to believe that his only plan was for Oliver to kill Ra's and then he'd also be released from his blood debt or whatever. The man who had a contingency plan for the Undertaking and also came back from the dead placed all his faith in Oliver winning the duel? Eh. Seems hard to believe.

 

Also, with how Laurel was this episode where Malcolm was concerned,

I find it hard to believe she would suddenly want his help in 312 or whatever episode where he volunteers to help take Brick down.

That's a pretty big leap there.

[apinknightmare]

Would people even have remembered that she had been dating Oliver Queen five years earlier?  If they mentioned Sara at all, they would have said she was a friend of his who was also on board when the ship went down with the Queens and all the crew.  Maybe a TMZ would have dug up that Laurel had dated him too but that looked like an ordinary news station.

 

The newscaster did mention that Sara was on the boat and that she was survived by Laurel - that's when she turned off the TV. It was the first news she got of him being alive and was probably a very painful public reminder of everything she was trying to get past, and I just really don't see why anyone would have an issue with it. 

Edited January 22, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Guest]

I forgot to say that Diggle sliding under that truck was awesome. And I loved him going up against Brick. This is the Diggle I love. Give him to me.

 

Why didn't Brick die though? Did I miss something?

[Lyndy]

There was a slight buzz on my Twitter feed after I watched the episode that I didn't understand at first. "Oliver's alive now!" Yeah. Uh... the show's called Arrow. Anyone really think we were going to go more than one episode before he woke up?

And there was a bit of "whaaaa?" after Tatsu and...uh... guy Tatsu is married to showed up. Couldn't figure out why this was important to anyone until I remembered that I always fast forward through the flashbacks and I only sort of know who these people are. To be honest, I sort of resent now having to learn who they are.

I maintain that this show would be at least 60% better if they left the past in the past. I don't care what Oliver did on the island or wherever else he was. Sometimes backstory should stay backstory.

The rest of the episode was pretty entertaining. If the show decided to kill of Ra's a Whatever and keep Vinnie Jones around for awhile, I'd be very much in favour. Vinnie Jones is the best.

I really need to start learning character names.

[Chasity]

Why didn't Brick die though? Did I miss something?

I don't get why he didn't die either. I guess the bullets in the gun Brick gave him were blanks or rubber. 

Edited January 22, 2015 by Chasity

[Guest]

Although I totally understood Felicity's reasons for saving Diggle and Roy (let's be fair, I don't think they would have caught them even if the door hadn't shut), yeah, they have kind of thrown her under the bus there. Basically it's all Felicity's fault now. That's not what I think but I can see other people thinking that way already. Another character thrown under the bus so Laurel could rise to BC. Sorry not sorry but it's true.

[QueenTiye]

Brick is a DC Universe character, or am I missing the point of that scorecard? http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Brick

[dtissagirl]

What do we think about Malcolm? I find it a little hard to believe that his only plan was for Oliver to kill Ra's and then he'd also be released from his blood debt or whatever. The man who had a contingency plan for the Undertaking and also came back from the dead placed all his faith in Oliver winning the duel? Eh. Seems hard to believe.

I truly hope there's more to Malcolm than what we're getting, because otherwise, what I think of him is his motivation is he wants Thea and Oliver to notice him in a PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE LIKE ME PLEASE way. Like everything he's doing stems from wanting to get their attention, or the psycho killer version of it. As if he were the weird skeevy uncle who only ever hangs out with the younger generation [mostly because all of his age appropriate friends/enemies are dead, but still] because he wants to be them. Or be loved by them. Or murder them, who knows.

But remember Amy Poehler's character on Mean Girls? Regina George's mother who dresses as a teen and wants in with her daughter's teen clique? If there's nothing more to Malcolm going on here, that's the vibe I get from him.

Edited January 22, 2015 by dancingnancy

[Guest]

I truly hope there's more to Malcolm than what we're getting, because otherwise, what I think of him is his motivation is he wants Thea and Oliver to notice him in a PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE LIKE ME PLEASE way. Like everything he's doing stems from wanting to get their attention, or the psycho killer version of it. As if he were the weird skeeky uncle who only ever hangs out with the younger generation [mostly because all of his age appropriate friends/enemies are dead, but still] because he wants to be them. Or be loved by them. Or murder them, who knows.

But remember Amy Poehler's character on Mean Girls? Regina George's mother who dresses as a teen and wants in with her daughter's teen clique? If there's nothing more to Malcolm going on here, that's the vibe I get from him.

 

Lol but that's exactly the vibe I've been getting from him ever since we saw him staring at Oliver and Thea through the window across from their apartment, like he was getting it twisted in his head that Oliver could somehow take Tommy's place and they could be a family. And tbh, it kind of lines up with what Barrowman has said a couple of times in interviews - that he loves Oliver like his own son and they're a weird sort of family. 

Edited January 22, 2015 by Guest

[FireFoxy]

This episode...The feels. I'm still not over it. 

 

EBR and DR were amazing.

Felicity going toe to toe with Malcolm was so good. 

 

I really liked Felicity and Laurel's scene. If that is a symbolic way to pass the Lauriver "MEANT TO BE!!!11!" torch to Olicity then I am all for it.

 

I really like Brick.

 

Can someone PLEASE tell Thea?!?

 

Soooo...The editing of the hands...The green nail polish.... Endgame confirmed? 

[cambridgeguy]

The birth of a brand new villain - Felicity Smoak, the one who turns off the lights.  The body count will rise as scores of people are found dead in darkened rooms, having tripped and broken their necks. 

 

Say this about Ray - at least he's taking the Iron Man approach of wearing advanced technology for his crusade against injustice rather than going out there in leather.  Laurel also had the good sense to use those sonic bombs - she hasn't had to show any real fighting skills or lack thereof.

[statsgirl]

I was surprised at how human Hong Kong Oliver still was. I was expecting more of the guy who appeared in Starling City in the pilot, but I guess we've still got 1 1/2 seasons to get there.

 

I liked how he rescued Tatsu while lying to Amanda. That's the Oliver I've grown to love.

 

So. Brick steals evidence, but hangs onto it to blackmail these gits. There goes any future trials; they were coerced by Brick due to past bad acts. Or is that wrong? (Legal folks? Bueller?)  Since they were never convicted of those crimes, they were blackmailed?

Wouldn't there also be a problem with the chain of evidence?  It's been in Brick's hands for months, I assume any judge would throw it out. Maybe they're too stupid to know that though.

 

Intentionally turning off the lights while people are still in the room is not nice though. It was a passive aggressive way for her to make a point. It doesn't even bother me that much, but I do think it was rude. Would've been funny to see Diggle or Roy stumble up the stairs and search for the light though.

I assumed there would be a switch at the bottom of the stairs too.  Oliver slept down there for months, I can't see him stumbling down stairs every night with a flashlight after he'd turned off the lights, and then up again in the morning.

 

Speaking of which, how can Thea not know something is going on when there's a massive electricity bill even when Verdant was supposed to be dark?

 

It's not nice but it's not passive aggressive either. To me it was pretty direct. She said she was done with all of it and turned off the lights. 

Yes. Passive aggressive would be saying she's looking for data on the thugs and not really doing it.

 

 

So, no one's mentioned this, but am I the only one who thinks that Laurel took the news that Oliver's dead way too easily? She didn't even seem remotely upset by it at all. I know they don't mean the same thing to each other that they did when the Gambit went down, and maybe she just doesn't have any more tears to cry for Oliver Queen, but I did think that was strange.

Been there, done that?  Maybe she no longer trusts that Oliver is really really dead.

 

Storywise, I think it's there to show that Laurel has moved beyond being that close to Oliver and she's looking at the bigger picture.  In the past 20 months, she's lost both Tommy and Sara.  Maybe she's all used up in terms of mourning, or  maybe she's not going to believe Oliver's dead unless she sees his body in front of her.

 

Although given what she told Dinah, that she can't bear to lose anyone else again, it does seem like bad writing.

 

.Having said that, now that I've slept on it, I've remembered that Felicity and Diggle have expressed doubts before - and given that Oliver, Diggle and Roy have at one time or another all left the team, it was about time that Felicity did, and thinking that Oliver was dead would do it.  So I'm good now. 

Felicity also quit the team, in The Dodger right after she joined because she didn't like Oliver's tactics.  He apologized and she came back when he agreed to go after someone not in the book  (the Dodger). Interestingly whereas those earlier times people quit Oliver (Diggle because he thought The Hood was a killer, Felicity because he was going to kill the widowed father of a young boy, Roy because Oliver wasn't paying enough attention to him), this is actually the first time someone has quit the Team itself.  And Felicity has more than quit the Team, she's quit the idea of vigilantes entirely since she's trying to convince Ray not to do it.  (I fully expect she'll be back on board next episode.)

 

I got the feeling that Diggle already thought Oliver was dead even before Malcolm showed up with the sword, and maybe Roy too. It was Felicity who was determined to keep Oliver alive through hope. and Diggle had been talking to her earlier hoping to let her down easy.

 

A final comment on the two turning off scenes -- we the audience know what Felicity's been through, in the last five days and more in the last five months whereas with Laurel, it was the first time we had met the character and hadn't had time to develop much (any?) sympathy for her situation.  We know Felicity was barely holding it together; we saw Laurel functioning just fine as a capable lawyer.

[Password]

I don't know, I found Laurel dressing up "being justice" completely hilarious. Second hand embarrassment has a new name: Laurel Lance.

I also thought Laurels reaction to Oliver being confirmed dead was weird. Like she just went "Oh...but wait you're still vigilante-ing right?" Very single minded.

I liked the episode overall, wish desperately Felicity slapped Merlyn. Snot actually looked remorseful.

Am I the only one OK with Felicity telling Ray his dead fiance would not have wanted him to fight? From a completely unbiased place, I wouldn't EVER want my loved one to go on a suicide mission to honour me or defend the defenseless on the streets. He has money and a big brain, use it for good. His suit is going to inflict pain on criminals who hurt HIM. The city of Starling needs therapy.

[apinknightmare]

Although I totally understood Felicity's reasons for saving Diggle and Roy (let's be fair, I don't think they would have caught them even if the door hadn't shut), yeah, they have kind of thrown her under the bus there. Basically it's all Felicity's fault now. That's not what I think but I can see other people thinking that way already. Another character thrown under the bus so Laurel could rise to BC. Sorry not sorry but it's true.

I disagree.

If they were throwing Felicity under the bus for Laurel, Felicity would've had a freak out and done what she did while Diggle and Roy had the upper hand in that fight. They were getting their asses handed to them and they weren't going to win. They got mad about it, yeah, but that doesn't mean they were right. Given that a lot of people seem to think Felicity's a rude whiner now, some people may think this is her fault, but I thought the show sold her as being cautious, but correct.

Edited January 22, 2015 by apinknightmare

[statsgirl]

Am I the only one OK with Felicity telling Ray his dead fiance would not have wanted him to fight? From a completely unbiased place, I wouldn't EVER want my loved one to go on a suicide mission to honour me or defend the defenseless on the streets.

"No love, quoth he, but vanity sets love a task like that"  (Leigh Hunt)

 

I can't imagine someone who loved another person wanting him to go out and fight and maybe get killed.  Felicity was coming from just losing Oliver to that battle, but it may be that Ray's whole reason for living now that she's dead is to prevent someone like his Anna from being killed like that again. It's natural that she said it, partly from her grief and partly to keep Ray from dying, but it also makes sense normal that he wouldn't like it and shut her down in the fastest (and cruelest) way he could.

[Guest]

I disagree.

If they were throwing Felicity under the bus for Laurel, Felicity would've had a freak out and done what she did while Diggle and Roy had the upper hand in that fight. They were getting their asses handed to them and they weren't going to win. They got mad about it, yeah, but that doesn't mean they were right. Given that a lot of people seem to think Felicity's a rude whiner now, some people may think this is her fault, but I thought the show sold her as being cautious, but correct.

 

I agree that Felicity was right to do what she did. I don't think Diggle and Roy were going to win either. I'm with you there, as I already said.

 

But the fact is they've put Felicity in that position of being blamed and spotlighted it, in a way. It was Felicity's choice to shut the door and therefore people are thinking that it's her fault Brick got away with the evidence. As I said, personally I don't agree with that but I can't fault people for thinking the opposite when it can easily be viewed that way. That's all I meant.

[Password]

Diggle was having his behind handed to him. How would they have caught a van anyway?

I got nothing but love for Miss Smoak. If people hate on her for doing that, it's their opinion, but as long as Dig and Roy don't, why should we? (Assiming they don't in the coming episode).

[thuganomics85]

 

If people hate on her for doing that, it's their opinion, but as long as Dig and Roy don't, why should we? (Stupidly they don't in the coming episode).

 

I would find it hilarious if the show stupidly does that: have Diggle and Roy hold a grudge.  I can see episodes from now, where everyone is back together, but Roy is pouting because Felicity hasn't apologized, or Felicity asks Diggle to turn on a light or something to do work, and Diggle's just being a jerk all "Isn't that your job, Felicity?  I thought you liked the dark!"  While Ollie just wonders why the guys have suddenly become so petty.

 

Really though, it's not that huge of a deal.  It's one of those things that was understandable, even though it wasn't the best way to handle things.  But, these guys have done much worse to each other, and their friendship remains intact.  If this was a big enough offense to sour Felicity for some viewers, well, then I can't really change their minds.  But, I give everyone slack in this: I'm sure Ollie's "death" had everyone on edge.

[BkWurm1]

Right why do they buy it from Malcolm?

 

Because he said they wouldn't believe him but after they've exhausted all other options they eventually would (which apparently in the show runner's mind equals actually exhausting all other options.)

[apinknightmare]

I agree that Felicity was right to do what she did. I don't think Diggle and Roy were going to win either. I'm with you there, as I already said.

 

But the fact is they've put Felicity in that position of being blamed and spotlighted it, in a way. It was Felicity's choice to shut the door and therefore people are thinking that it's her fault Brick got away with the evidence. As I said, personally I don't agree with that but I can't fault people for thinking the opposite when it can easily be viewed that way. That's all I meant.

 

But the thing is, they didn't put Felicity in the position of being blamed. If she had pulled the plug when Diggle and Roy had the upper hand and were winning and then Brick and his guys got away, that would've been throwing her under the bus - she would have made a bad decision that led to him escaping. The show set her up to be right. Diggle and Roy were losing, they were getting their assess handed to them, and they were not going to win. Felicity even made the argument that they were outnumbered and going up against machine guns with a bow and arrow. She was set up to be right, and she was right. If people blame her, then they're ignoring what was on the screen.

[calliope1975]

Can they please just stop with Felicity being in near tears at the office so Ray can swoop in to comfort her or whatever that set-up has been done to death. Think up a new way for them to connect.

 

Based on their interactions so far, if Ray doesn't know about Felicity helping the Arrow, does he think she's emotionally unstable? Is he concerned that his brilliant employee is crying all the time? I had a friend/co-worker who had a super dramatic life and was always crying at work. It was a bit weird and awkward. You want to be there for them, but you also want the dramatics to die down. And I should stop applying real world dynamics to a guy who's going to shrink himself.

 

That's a good point. For all they know, him having a bloody sword could mean MALCOLM stabbed Oliver on his way back to the world's most accessible secret lair and that's why he hasn't returned. But if Malcolm ran off and came back so quickly, saying "I checked where they were fighting" why wouldn't Felicity get in his face and say "Tell me the coordinates!" Even though she certainly wouldn't want to see Oliver's broken body (which she obviously wouldn't but that's another point entirely) between satellites and Barry she could get proof and/or him. Given all their resources it is rather nonsensical to think they don't at least try. I get grief and not thinking straight, but come on. 

 

I understand plot wise why everyone just believed Malcolm but character-wise I would expect them to want more proof. To travel to the fight site (which is apparently a quick day trip away). To try to contact Nyssa - which is probably impossible. Anything other than believing the lying liar who lies.

I would think teaming with Waller would be more palatable than Malcolm.

 

But once again, they lost me when she suited up. First, did they just have that suit lying around? It's bad enough that Roy turned up in 301 in a shiny new leather outfit but even then I could reason that it's been five months and obviously they had one made for him (later confirmed in the 2.5 comics). But seriously, she just happened to find a shiny new costume with a billion annoying buckles just when she needed it? Come on. Ridiculous. I would have preferred if she just used Sara's mask and wig and patched together her own costume like she did when she attacked that guy earlier in the season. It would have been more realistic to me but that's not what they want, clearly.

 

And that "I'm the justice you can't run from" line is still as laughable now as it was when I first heard about it. I don't think laughing was the reaction they were going for but oh well. Couldn't be helped. Honestly, this whole storyline is way too soon. I'm not convinced and I don't think I ever will be. 

 

That dialogue is atrocious no matter who says it, but I do like the idea of taking pieces of Sara's costume and putting something makeshift together. Seeing a progression is always better for me than Instant!Success though in a mean girls way I do enjoy the thought of her taking the time out to put together the outfit, match her lip and nails, piling on the make up, trying out different quippy phrases in the mirror, then hours later finally going to find the guy. 

Edited January 22, 2015 by calliope1975

[BkWurm1]

She was set up to be right, and she was right. If people blame her, then they're ignoring what was on the screen.

 

 

 

I agree but Dig and Roy certainly acted like they were POSITIVE they were in the right and she in the wrong. 

 

Could someone explain to me what we think she did that let the bad guys get away?  One moment Roy was pinned down and Dig was getting pummeled and the next Roy was alone and Dig left behind and the van is screeching away.  I genuinely haven't a clue.

 

A couple things from upthread:

 

I think part of him is also worried that Thea might be overcoming the brainwashing.  He could be seeing Thea's concern for Oliver as Thea fighting the brainwashing

 

I do believe he did a number on her to get her to accept him as “Daddy” but the herbs he used to get her to kill Sara are not something to overcome.  As far as we’ve seen, you get doused with them, you do as ordered, and then you have no memory at all of what you did.  So I don’t see Thea remembering. 

Anyway, why the hell were Sara's wig, staff, mask and sonic things just lying out on the table?

 

I assume Felicity just couldn’t handle putting all her stuff away…like it would be too permanent.  Kind of like the widow not cleaning out the husband’s closet for a year.

 

It was the one scene with Laurel I found oddly moving, her gazing at the tools Sara used, things that kind of defined her...how we went from sad and nostalgic to "Hey, I know, I"LL dress up as Sara!", that I don't get. 

[apinknightmare]

Could someone explain to me what we think she did that let the bad guys get away?  One moment Roy was pinned down and Dig was getting pummeled and the next Roy was alone and Dig left behind and the van is screeching away.  I genuinely haven't a clue.

 

After the guys DROVE AWAY IN A TRUCK, Felicity shut the garage door so Diggle and Roy couldn't follow them. Like...they were never going to catch the truck on foot, so...what's the big deal? I don't get it. The truck was already out of the garage by the time Roy hopped out of the service bay. It just wasn't going to happen.

[Guest]

I agree but Dig and Roy certainly acted like they were POSITIVE they were in the right and she in the wrong. 

 

 

That's exactly what I was saying. Diggle and Roy behaved as if they weren't pinned down, like they were going to get the bad guys. They both acted like Felicity's actions were to blame (SHE WASN'T), thereby implying to the audience that it was her fault Brick got away. I can totally see why people are blaming Felicity even though I personally don't blame her. Anyway, I'll stop talking about this now because we'll probably just end up talking in circles!

[Carrie Ann]

That's exactly what I was saying. Diggle and Roy behaved as if they weren't pinned down, like they were going to get the bad guys. They both acted like Felicity's actions were to blame (SHE WASN'T), thereby implying to the audience that it was her fault Brick got away. I can totally see why people are blaming Felicity even though I personally don't blame her. Anyway, I'll stop talking about this now because we'll probably just end up talking in circles!

 

I think everyone is basically in agreement here--we think Felicity probably did the right thing, or was at least right in thinking that Dig and Roy had no chance against the giant truck full of dudes with machine guns. So the issue is, why are some other viewers blaming Felicity? And I agree with you, @Angel12d, that the choice to have Dig and Roy both treat Felicity as though she blew it let some viewers come to the same conclusion. If the writers' intent was not to make it look that way, I think they should have had either Dig or Roy come around in the end and acknowledge that she was right, and they didn't have a chance.

[Password]

It's funny, even on the After buzz TV show on YouTube they say it was an entirely selfish and emotional (understandably) action. Whilst yes I think it was emotional in that she didn't want her friends to die, they WERE getting their asses kicked. They were on foot chasing a VAN. They were just annoyed at the thought of it, in all likelihood they wouldn't have caught them. Yes it was emotional, but IMO not irrational. Like someone mentioned upthread if they were winning and she did it, then yes naughty. But eh, it seemed fine to me.