S03.E01: EST Men

[sistermagpie]

Philip plays the nicer one, the heart on his sleeve guy, more emotional, so less "character" development is needed for him.  Elizabeth is guarded, so we get these little tidbits to understand her a bit.  I think.

 

 

Answering in the Philip thread. 

[panthergirl13]

I worked for a bunch of hard-core esties who wanted to recruit all their employees in '82. I didn't work for them past '82, but there were certainly lots of seminars to attend that year. (Coincidentally, the office was right around the corner from the Frusen Gladje store I mentioned above!) Not only were they esties, but also into rolfing and blood-type diets. And for all the focus on alternative health, every last one of 'em loved them some cocaine. Oh, the crackpottery was strong in that joint, lemme tell you.

And then, as people started getting wise to the crackpottery of est they changed it to The Forum. I was briefly married to a hardcore est-ie who dragged me to a Forum weekend in 1988. What a freaking nightmare. The whole thing was just a multi-level marketing scheme ("How many people can YOU sign up for the next seminar??")

 

Anyway I loved the episode and LOLLED at the est meeting as well as the Frusen Gladje in its decidedly un-sustainable plastic tub. Someone should make a Pop Up Video version of this show.

[RedHawk]

Russian's my first language, so I don't need subtitles.

 

 

Chocolatine, can you please summarize for us what Elizabeth's mother said to her? 

[RedHawk]

I just want Phillip to finish the story about getting jumped in the street when he was a child! You know he kicked several asses that day, and probably did worse.

 

Someone should make a Pop Up Video version of this show.

 

 

Yes, please! 

 

Did anyone notice the hideous jeans Sandra was wearing? Yikes, I think I had a pair like that.

Edited January 29, 2015 by RedHawk

[chocolatine]

Chocolatine, can you please summarize for us what Elizabeth's mother said to her?

 

 

PinkRibbons summarized it pretty much perfectly upthread:

 

Russian is my passive language and I don't get a lot of medical vocabulary, but I did get the general idea of what Nadia's Mother was saying -- first she reminisced about her daughter waiting for her to come home from work, then she said she wasn't feeling well, mentioned blood and a doctor (I had my mother listen to it just now and she said "cancer of the blood"), and that whatever she was diagnosed with had spread throughout her body. The doctor says that nothing can be done except to wait for the end.

 

 

The mother started by saying how little Nadia always waited in same chair in the kitchen for her to come home from work. She said she'd told her to do "something useful" instead of waiting, but Nadia preferred to sit and think. Then she changed the subject (rather abruptly, I thought) and started talking about how she found out she had "cancer of the blood", which I took to be leukemia. She said it was "in the blood, in the bones, everywhere". She didn't say it explicitly, but I understood that that was the last tape she would be able to record.

 

PinkRibbons, you make a great point about Russian doctors keeping a fatal diagnosis from the patient, but they did usually tell the family to prepare them. Maybe Nadia's mother had no other family, so her doctor had no choice but to tell her.

[PinkRibbons]

After listening to that tape recording my mother basically rewrote it for me to be more accurate and it was kind of harrowing:

 

"The doctor tells me it's only anemia but I don't know, I think it's something worse, I can't help but worry about what's going to happen to me. Nadinka this may be the last thing you ever hear from me..."

 

And the part that creeped me out most was how easily Mama came up with that. She heard it from people right before they keeled over.

[Umbelina]

Wow.  After reading the comments about them not telling terminal patients the truth, that is just amazing that the show got it right.

 

I love that attention to detail.  They didn't tell her mom, but she surmised.

[PinkRibbons]

Wow.  After reading the comments about them not telling terminal patients the truth, that is just amazing that the show got it right.

 

I love that attention to detail.  They didn't tell her mom, but she surmised.

 

Sorry, I wasn't clear enough about my mother "rewriting the scene". I mean she told me how that tape should have sounded if they were being historically and culturally accurate. Instead Nadia's mother specifically said that her doctor had told her that she had terminal cancer. Discussing this with now both my parents (this show gets a lot of discussion in my house), they are both adamant that no Russian doctor would have given their patient a fatal diagnosis. Mama's rewriting was the more accurate approach many people would have. Apparently that habit of not telling people when they were dying led to a lot of paranoia on the part of some patients, especially ones who already suspected it was bad.

Edited January 29, 2015 by PinkRibbons

[Umbelina]

Oh, thanks.  Maybe you are right that since she had no one else in the family there, they did tell her.

[RedHawk]

She didn't say it explicitly, but I understood that that was the last tape she would be able to record.

 

 

OMG, that would be so terrible for Elizabeth to hear! No wonder she was deeply affected. She may have felt it was as if her mother had already died, because of course she can't go to a funeral. All she can do is wait to be told her mother is gone. Maybe she will be able to send her mother one last set of photos and a note or something. Haven't we learned that the communication goes both ways, and that her mother has seen photos of the children?

 

Because Elizabeth is a valued spy, are we to assume that her mother is given extra rations, has a better home than most, and might even be given somewhat better care in a hospital? 

Edited January 29, 2015 by RedHawk

[Chaos Theory]

I think there is different levels of security clearance like everything else. Philip and Elizabeth are stuck recruiting/seducing people like Martha but Paige could BE a Martha and get a low level job at the FBI that doesn't require top to bottom security clearance. We forget how much shit a secretary knows about her boss and Martha complained once to Clarke about how people were leaving high security documents on copy machines. That is the kind of stuff that would be catnip for A soviet turned Paige. Not to mention the chaos she could cause to a dudes marriage or life with honeytrap prowess that Martha lacks. Poor Martha. (Although technically now her sex meter has gone way up since she has been in her super secret marriage). It would be interesting and funny if men start to notice and she is unable to tell them why she cannot date them- super secret marriage and all.

And that gun is so going to shoot someone.

I will be disappointed if it doesn't.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[chocolatine]

OMG, that would be so terrible for Elizabeth to hear! No wonder she was deeply affected. She may have felt it was as if her mother had already died, because of course she can't go to a funeral. All she can do is wait to be told her mother is gone. Maybe she will be able to send her mother one last set of photos and a note or something. Haven't we learned that the communication goes both ways, and that her mother has seen photos of the children?

Because Elizabeth is a valued spy, are we to assume that her mother is given extra rations, has a better home than most, and might even be given somewhat better care in a hospital?

 

 

Yes, on the tape Elizabeth got previously the mother said that she had seen pictures, and "you all are so beautiful". I was wondering about her getting special treatment too. The KGB is obviously in touch with her to let her record the tapes (owning a tape recorder was an unheard-of luxury for an old widow) and deliver photos/letters from Elizabeth. Maybe the doctor who treats her also works with the KGB and that's why he told her the truth about her condition.

[dramachick]

Excellent premiere!

 

I really liked the fight between Elizabeth and the two FBI agents. She had the drop on them and leaned in for a battle to the death. She never let up. When she was in that choke hold, and things started to look bleak, I could hear her mind repeating this mantra from the film, Redbelt: "There is no situation I cannot escape from." Clarity. Car bumper. Leverage. Wonderful fight choreography.

 

Poor Gaad, demoted back to field agent and getting his ass kicked because Stan murdered Vlad.

 

Stan still sucks.

 

If looks could kill, Gabriel and Elizabeth would both be dead from Philip's stink-eye.

 

The most affecting scene to me was Elizabeth listening to that tape. I'm glad there were no subtitles because it allowed Keri Russell to do some impressive work. When her facial expression went from joy at the sound of her mother's voice, to devastation at the content of the words, I knew her mother was telling her that she was dying. There would be no more tapes. I thought it was one of the saddest scenes the show has ever done.

 

Some how, some way, Oleg will save Nina.

Edited January 30, 2015 by sswriter

[Umbelina]

Nina surviving would be a stretch for me. 

 

I wonder if the KGB guy who replaces Brezhnev might play into that though?  If the fan wank that some way, put her back as a triple agent again?  The only other thing I could see as possible is Oleg making some kind of back channel deal to at least get her execution stayed, maybe a work detail temporarily, and then maybe with the mafia to break her out (assuming she's not already executed.)  She would have already been tortured (again) for any information the USA crew might have missed.

 

When I watched the fight, I keep thinking Alias and JJ Abrams insisting that all of Sydney's fights involve using something in the specific area during the fights.  So, the motorcycle in this case.  Syd might throw a kitchen drawer, or break off a pipe, or in her first fight, a car aerial to give herself an advantage. 

Edited January 30, 2015 by Umbelina

[Inquisitionist]

THANKS for the translation of the mom's tape you guys!

 

While I also appreciate the extra detail, I respect the writers' and director's choice not to provide subtitles.  We could tell from the change in expression that Elizabeth went from hearing something soothing and pleasant to something very upsetting.   We learned the content of the latter part when she told Philip, but we weren't necessarily as surprised as he was. 

 

I, too, was more puzzled about Elizabeth's relationship with the woman from the CIA in the opening scene and how that all played out.  Very sad about sweet, dumb Annelise.  I'd forgotten about her relationship with Yousaf -- may have to rewatch that S2 episode!

[scrb]

Nina will be back because she's hot and the show needs all the ratings it can get.

 

Not because they find some clever way for the Soviets to show mercy.

[thewhiteowl]

Sorry, I wasn't clear enough about my mother "rewriting the scene". I mean she told me how that tape should have sounded if they were being historically and culturally accurate. Instead Nadia's mother specifically said that her doctor had told her that she had terminal cancer. Discussing this with now both my parents (this show gets a lot of discussion in my house), they are both adamant that no Russian doctor would have given their patient a fatal diagnosis. Mama's rewriting was the more accurate approach many people would have. Apparently that habit of not telling people when they were dying led to a lot of paranoia on the part of some patients, especially ones who already suspected it was bad.

 

 I'm just going to throw out there that we don't even know if it's true. They want Liz to do recruit her daughter, what better way to ramp up her emotions than have her mother tell Liz she's dying. A horrible manipulation but KGB would not care about that. Just a thought.

[scowl]

I wish we had seen Philip and Elizabeth's reaction to the Brezhnev death announcement in this episode.

 

They probably would have had the same reaction as every other Soviet had at the time: shrug their shoulders.

[gwhh]

Yeah, I surpise he can still walk after all that loving he got on that epiode.

I love Stan line: they build those women pretty tough out there. To his boss on getting whipped by the little women.

Poor Phillip. Honey dicking all those women must get exhausting.

I can't figure out why he even wants her back. She's so insufferable.

Edited January 30, 2015 by gwhh

[shura]

Solzhenitsyn has a novel set in a Soviet cancer ward, and if I remember correctly, the terminal patients there know that their cancer is incurable. Just saying, some generalizations are too broad to be true.

 

If the Center were smart they would bring in a teenage boy who was "all in" and have him develop Paige.

 

To borrow from Despicable Me 2, can I be the first to say "Eww!"? And speaking of teenage boys, come on, Paige, you can do better than that Dennis person your pastor is getting out of his way to fix you up with.

 

I'm still laughing at the Kama Sutra scene, especially at how "Clark" kept turning his head to look at the book and make sure he is following the instructions correctly. Ah, romance...

[sistermagpie]

If the Center were smart they would bring in a teenage boy who was "all in" and have him develop Paige.

 

 

I think if they ever do that it's more like with Jared--you get a grown adult spy sex worker to do it. Though in Paige's case romance might not be the best way to go. It's not her biggest focus.

[crgirl412]

 

To borrow from Despicable Me 2, can I be the first to say "Eww!"?

Shura,  Yeah, I guess that I didn't write that well!!!  Ooooops!!   

[TheRealWendy]

When did Oleg become the most interesting character on this show? I loved his comment about getting out of Afghanistan, and I loved his comment about begging his father to help Nina. I loved him stalking Stan. In a way, if anyone is primed to be turned, it's Oleg. 

 

Philip wincing when he sat down is probably the funniest thing I've ever seen.

 

And I swear to God, if Martha doesn't shoot someone by the end of this season, I'll scream. They haven't just given her Chekhov's gun; they've given her Chekhov's gun lessons. 

[PinkRibbons]

Solzhenitsyn has a novel set in a Soviet cancer ward, and if I remember correctly, the terminal patients there know that their cancer is incurable. Just saying, some generalizations are too broad to be true.

 

Just going to say this first: I am basically just the typist here because it's my mother who's responding to this comment after I read it to her. She too mentioned Cancer Ward when talking about the Soviet attitude towards telling patients about their terminal diagnoses. She says that some patients in the novel do guess what's going on, but none of them are actually told so by their doctors. And in this case, the handling of terminal illnesses was in fact culturally ingrained, so yes this generalization stands.

[scrb]

So was it more a Soviet thing or a Russian thing?

 

The obvious warmth between P&E and Gabriel was a stark contrast to their relationship with granny.

 

I don't know if it was a set up for the uncomfortable conversation about Paige or just in general humanize these characters.

 

Did they send Gabriel to soften them up or will Gabriel, in the moment of truth, basically order them to hand Paige over, fulfilling the Western perception of Soviet authoritarianism?

[chocolatine]

So was it more a Soviet thing or a Russian thing?

 

 

That's a good question; I'm not sure. It's definitely something ingrained in the culture, that it's kinder to keep bad news from someone than to tell them the truth.

 

The obvious warmth between P&E and Gabriel was a stark contrast to their relationship with granny.

 

 

I thought the warmth was just between Elizabeth and Gabriel. Phillip seemed uneasy around him.

 

Did they send Gabriel to soften them up or will Gabriel, in the moment of truth, basically order them to hand Paige over, fulfilling the Western perception of Soviet authoritarianism?

 

 

The two are not mutually exclusive. I can see him trying to soften them (really just Phillip since Elizabeth is already OK with it) up first, and if that doesn't work, change tack and order it outright.

[albaniantv]

It's so great there are Russian and Soviet savvy viewers here --what a thrill to be able to ask for for clarifications about this first rate show. For now, just some sort of superficial comments and requests:

 

Throwing Paige into the swimming pool--is this maybe because Elizabeth is reflecting that tough socialist ( USSR, East Germany, China) tradition or culture she was raised in, where children are screened early for any sports talent, in a completely unsentimental way? Basically the parents and state work together to find any unusual talent and if so, even 6 year olds may be sent to a boarding school away from home to develop talent. It is still that way in China, don't know if that's the case in Russia. Or maybe i am overthinking this and it's just about using forcing Paige to get over her fear of the water?

 

Loved the comments about est being on the way out in 82 --but in my experience DC is always so lagging. Even now, most women working in govt there would have in their closets both a bright, brash suit in red and another in blue and not as much black as you would find in NYC or LA.  

 

Interesting to see all the comments and information about how doctors delivered bad news. This show, though doesn't seem to have much interest in educating us how things happen in Russia--everything leads to something else. So, I am still hoping we get to see Elizabeth's mother, and that they have a reunion here or there, under whatever pretext or plot point. 

 

I realize the idea of preparing Paige to act as a 2nd generation agent is supposed to bring everyone's blood to a boil--ours as viewers and her parents in their role as her protectors. And of course with Paige herself, as a teenager more likely to oppose than support her parents' views.. But is there any basis for this idea in reality--either here or in Russia or anywhere? It just seems such a doomed idea--drowning in drama and surely death?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I worked for a bunch of hard-core esties who wanted to recruit all their employees in '82. I didn't work for them past '82, but there were certainly lots of seminars to attend that year. (Coincidentally, the office was right around the corner from the Frusen Gladje store I mentioned above!) Not only were they esties, but also into rolfing and blood-type diets. And for all the focus on alternative health, every last one of 'em loved them some cocaine. Oh, the crackpottery was strong in that joint, lemme tell you.

 

 

And then, as people started getting wise to the crackpottery of est they changed it to The Forum. I was briefly married to a hardcore est-ie who dragged me to a Forum weekend in 1988. What a freaking nightmare. The whole thing was just a multi-level marketing scheme ("How many people can YOU sign up for the next seminar??")

The crackpottery of the Forum still continues. Cafe Gratitude, a vegan restaurant that is very popular in Los Angeles, was founded by two people who met at a Landmark seminar and they "encourage" all of their employees to do the same. Managers at the Bay Area restaurants were each asked to enroll ten employees in Landmark seminars (which cost $250-$500). One employee said she was fired because she refused to attend (there is a brief summary of EST and how it became Landmark Forum). There are other companies that send their employees to Landmark too. lululemon is one of the companies that pressures their employees to attend:

 

 

Elizabeth Licorish, a 28-year-old freelance writer from Philadelphia who worked for Lululemon in 2011, said Landmark tactics embedded in Lululemon's ideology made her work environment cutthroat and hostile.

 

"Having a transparent work environment where criticism and feedback is frequent seems good in theory, but it made the workplace feel like a pressure cooker," Licorish said. "They had this passive aggressive way to encourage you. Part of their new training model is for employees to give feedback but it often was attacking personal weaknesses or even pointing out that your mood is slightly negative."

 

In addition to fitness obsession, Lululemon claims to have a vision of "creating components for people to live long, healthy and fun lives," and "elevating the world from mediocrity to greatness." But Licorish said Lululemon employees are spoon-fed Landmark language, frequenting words like "integrity," and "authenticity" to implement "Lululemon's social hierarchy." Using Landmark strategies, Lululemon is also heavily focused on goal setting and character development.

 

"As part of the job, Lululemon required you to write life-long goals and post them in the store. It was a bizarre, invasive procedure where they try to goal-coach you as part of their many grooming tactics," she said.

 

While attending Landmark is not mandatory for Lululemon employees, actively choosing not to attend could be detrimental for progress in the work place, Licorish added.

 

"When my manager brought up Landmark at a meeting, she said that it was a gift that Lululemon gave to its employees. We did not have to accept the gift, but if we didn't, we had to reevaluate our goals and how we align with the company," she said. "If you decided not to go, they would find a way to phase you out."

 

Honestly, I just can't with the lululemon founder (some gems from him). Anyway, my point is that the pressure to continue attending Landmark seminars is very strong, so I am not surprised that Sandra kept going. The one bright side is that it made her realize that her marriage to Stan sucked. Interesting that as soon as Stan said he went to an EST seminar, she immediately got suspicious (as opposed to saying, "I'm so glad you opened yourself up to this experience!"). Honestly, when she initially told Stan she was going to EST, I thought she was going to try to recruit Elizabeth to go or possibly talk her son into going.

Edited January 30, 2015 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Haleth]

I guess it's been too long of a break.  Who is Yousef?  I remember Phillip recruiting Annaliese but I don't remember who the guy is.

 

Martha learning how to shoot is going to come up before the season is over.  Good luck with that, Phil.  And I noticed Gaad is still using the pen with the bug in it.  Oh, Gaad.

 

Poor Nina.  I hope we see her again.  I didn't think Oleg's feelings for her were genuine, but he seems to be fraught with concern.

 

And yes, when Elizabeth threw little Paige into the pool I gasped.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Haleth

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I thought it was hilarious that Oleg's father refused to help Nina because it's not right to use your power and influence. You know, the way he didn't use his power and influence to get Oleg that cushy job.

[Inquisitionist]

I guess it's been too long of a break.  Who is Yousef?  I remember Phillip recruiting Annaliese but I don't remember who the guy is.

 

I had forgotten as well, but refreshed my memory by reading Alan Sepinwall's review of the relevant episode, Yousaf.

[MargotWendice]

A few random questions/thoughts:

What makes you all think it is 1982? I had the impression it was a few years later. How much time has passed since the first episode?

Why do you think Elizabeth's mother's recording was not translated?

FWIW, I was born down south in the early 1970s and there were a lot of Paiges around. I know I am older than fictional Paige would be but the name was definitely out there among women born in the 1950s/60s. People in the south have a tradition of giving a surname as a first name, so maybe that is its origin.

Maybe Philip and Elizabeth were baseball fans (Satchel Paige)? ;-)

[attica]

What makes you all think it is 1982?

 

The television announced the death of Leonid Brezhnev, which occurred in November of 1982.

[MargotWendice]

Oops *redface*. I forgot about Brezhnev's death being shown.

[Inquisitionist]

Why do you think Elizabeth's mother's recording was not translated?

 

See my post from 7:33 pm yesterday above.  I think the writers wanted us to react to the changes in Elizabeth's facial expression and then learn the reason at the same time Philip did.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Inquisitionist

[sistermagpie]

Throwing Paige into the swimming pool--is this maybe because Elizabeth is reflecting that tough socialist ( USSR, East Germany, China) tradition or culture she was raised in, where children are screened early for any sports talent, in a completely unsentimental way?

 

 

I doubt you test for swimming talent by throwing someone in a pool. That just tests the ability to instinctively not drown, which doesn't make for a good athletic swimmer one way or the other. You'd see swimming talent by looking for physical abilities as the child actually learned to swim. I think Elizabeth was just teaching the old fashioned way--no coaxing in to the pool, just start by sink or swim.

 

But is there any basis for this idea in reality--either here or in Russia or anywhere? It just seems such a doomed idea--drowning in drama and surely death?

 

 

Yes, the real Illegals were known to occasional bring in a kid. I don't think there's any evidence that it really worked out. No Jared-style meltdowns that I know of, but no evidence of the kids really getting committed and doing it. Of course, it's possible we just don't know about the successful ones. The ones who were arrested had gotten a vow of loyalty to Russia out of their son, I think, and I think another family had a kid looking for potential recruits at college for a year or so before the kid dropped out, maybe? Something like that.

 

I thought the warmth was just between Elizabeth and Gabriel. Phillip seemed uneasy around him.

 

 

This was so one of my favorite scenes because Gabriel is pretty much the first person in his type of position we've seen who seemed to be trying to build a relationship with Philip. Most people seem to just quickly adopt a parental relationship with Elizabeth and leave Philip in the background. Gabriel, though, seemed to have picked up some habits dealing with him the way you'd deal with the shyer child, or the child who doesn't belong, is mistrustful. Philip still seemed more uneasy around him perhaps because he's frankly more uneasy around everybody. Elizabeth's the one with the lifetime of solid relationships behind her while Philip is very much a loner. (And yet Elizabeth seems to get far more reinforcement and reassurance from the Centre--it's a strange strategy.)

 

I suspect that as usual Gabriel will have a closer relationship with Elizabeth--plus, she's pleasing him by already being on board. And Philip figured out pretty quickly that not only was Gabriel there to absolutely get him to recruit Paige, but Elizabeth was on Gabriel's side. So even if Philip likes Gabriel, he knows he's a hostile force now.

[RimaTheBirdGirl]

Yes, the real Illegals were known to occasionally bring in a kid.

I met the child of the NYC "illegals," on whom The Americans is indirectly based.  A lot of the Jennings' details don't apply to his story -- his parents spoke with heavy accents, and their spying was minimal.

 

The real-life son is a gifted pianist, who turned his back on his parents when their truth was disclosed.  His piano teacher (a fierce Russian woman) took him in, became his legal guardian, and sent him (if I recall correctly) to Juilliard.  

 

I shook his hand at a recital, about two years ago, years after he was separated from his parents.  He had played so beautifully, and was beaming like a supernova.  Sweet kid.

Edited January 30, 2015 by RimaTheBirdGirl

[Constantinople]

FWIW, I was born down south in the early 1970s and there were a lot of Paiges around. I know I am older than fictional Paige would be but the name was definitely out there among women born in the 1950s/60s. People in the south have a tradition of giving a surname as a first name, so maybe that is its origin.

Are Phillip and Elizabeth supposed to be Southerners?

I ask because if they're not and Paige was a regional name that became more popular across the country over time, that would make the choice of Paige even more unusual.

According to http://www.ourbabynamer.com/Paige-name-popularity.html, Paige didn't even crack the top 300 for baby girl names in 1968 (becoming more popular in the 80s and then picking up a lot of steam in the 90s, eventually cracking the top 50 twice in the early aughties).

 

Maybe Philip and Elizabeth were baseball fans (Satchel Paige)? ;-)

If they're baseball fans they should have named their daughter Seven.

[sistermagpie]

The real-life son is a gifted pianist, who turned his back on his parents when their truth was disclosed.  His piano teacher (a fierce Russian woman) took him in, became his legal guardian, and sent him (if I recall correctly) to Juilliard.

 

 

Whoa. Did he turn them in? Or were they turned in and that's how he found out? I remember there was some question in one case of the kids staying in the US since they weren't born here, I think. 

 

It's funny on the show that they never seem to fear this outcome, at least lately. They don't discuss it. But I guess they haven't gotten close enough to doing it yet, since Elizabeth's plan is to get Paige really into the cause first.

Are Phillip and Elizabeth supposed to be Southerners? 

 

I ask because if they're not and Paige was a regional name that became more popular across the country over time, that would make the choice of Paige even more unusual.

 

 

It's not a particularly regional name. Paiges come from all over without being particularly associated with the South even if it's more popular there. Not having a trendy name doesn't make you stand out in the US, really.

Edited January 30, 2015 by sistermagpie

[RedHawk]

That's a good question; I'm not sure. It's definitely something ingrained in the culture, that it's kinder to keep bad news from someone than to tell them the truth.

 

 

I think withholding a cancer diagnosis was also common in the U.S. 50 years ago and more, especially if it was an advanced/terminal cancer, which so many were then. Usually the doctor told the family so they could prepare, which is the opposite of today today when HIPAA laws are in effect and the doctor cannot tell the family without the patient's permission. Back then, yes, it was thought the more kind thing to do and was probably common in many cultures.

[BigBlueMastiff]

 

I assume Elizabeth's prints would be on it?

This would only matter if her prints were in a DB somewhere, which is unlikely. Think if you touched something, and you'd never been arrested, worked at a job requiring fingerprinting or in the military, how would anyone have a copy of your prints?

 

 

There was a Frusen Gladje (the 'Swedish' ice cream Liz gives to Gabriel) shop near my first grown-up job. I always preferred it to Haagen Daz (its flavors were chip-and-nut-heavy, as opposed to straight ice cream), but it didn't survive as a brand very long. ::sad::

Miss this so much, sniff.

 

 

Definitely unwilling. Oleg said he'd begged his father, but the father told him that political connections shouldn't be used for personal gains. Which is hilarious given that the Soviet Union had one of the most corrupt governments in history.

Laughed aloud at this too, oh the irony.

 

Uggghhh, Stan is such a loser, loved his wife's reaction to his pathetic attempt to weasel his way back. Also, I can't stand Paige, her mewling demeanor and sullenness annoys me to no end, the brother is so much more appealing. I laughed when Elizabeth threw her in the pool. It may seem hard for people to understand, but not everyone believes in constantly fawning over and catering to their children, and the sink or swim method was not uncommon.

Edited January 30, 2015 by BigBlueMastiff

[RimaTheBirdGirl]

Whoa. Did he turn them in? Or were they turned in and that's how he found out? 

  

Sister Magpie, the latter.  My favorite part of the story is how the fearsome master piano instructor stepped out of her fire-breathing role, and became a parent to this boy.    

[RedHawk]

I laughed when Elizabeth threw her in the pool.

 

 

I giggled as well, especially because of the setup where Elizabeth glanced around first to be sure none of the other mommies were looking before she did the deed! 

[ahpny]

Stan never stood a chance, did he? Lie, tell the truth - it's all the same to Sandra.

 

They have deep problems, not the least of which is Stan is still in love with Nina, and Sandra knows maybe not the details, but can’t brook the BS anymore. Stan could have answered better. Why did he go to EST in the first place? His intentions seemed fine, i.e., wanting to reconnect with his wife through something that she found helpful. Why couldn’t he just have said, he found EST interesting and wasn’t sorry he went, but it wasn’t his thing. You know, a nice version of the truth, rather than the obnoxious and blunt version he offered up after admittedly lying, once again.

He had Nina on his mind. I remember thinking at the time how much Nina has helped Philip and Elizabeth, just by scrambling Stan's mind. If he wasn't so focussed on her so much he might start to notice his suspicious neighbours.

 

I get that Stan was mentally preoccupied with Nina’s predicament, but just after Stan hears from Gad that he was clocked by a diminutive woman who would have some facial injuries, Stan had met the Jennings in their kitchen, where he saw Elizabeth’s battered face and heard her lame “grocery attack” story. How could he not have made as least some tenuous connection?

[Umbelina]

I thought Elizabeth throwing Paige into the pool was foreshadowing to throwing Paige into the KGB.  It's her parenting style.  Philip is thinking of all of the problems with it, and of Paige's safety.  Elizabeth seems secretly thrilled, and has more of a "Well, she'll swim, let's DO this!" attitude.

[sistermagpie]

Why couldn’t he just have said, he found EST interesting and wasn’t sorry he went, but it wasn’t his thing. You know, a nice version of the truth, rather than the obnoxious and blunt version he offered up after admittedly lying, once again.

 

 

Stan has got to be one of the most inept characters on TV when it comes to women. It's not just Sandra. Nearly every time he's with a woman, unless he can fall into some cliche male role (like the hero with Nina) he's completely at a loss. Naturally it doesn't occur to him to be honest with Sandra. It was funny, in fact, that he'd talked about it with Philip. Because from Philip's pov I think he saw both sides--on the one hand, he knows how people (including his wife) sometimes feel if you disparage something they love, so it's not his instinct to be blunt either. But he's also plenty of times spoken to his wife very honestly. So if it were Philip, he'd no doubt know how to play it. Stan, though, doesn't even seem to really get why he went to EST. He's still following this script where women are from Venus and you just have to guess the secret formula to making them like you instead of treating them like another person. Even in the scene with Elizabeth he's making jokes about her letting Philip do the heavy lifting. He didn't listen to the seminar and imagine (or wasn't able to imagine) what Sandra was getting out of it, or ask her what she got out of it. But then, he was equally clueless about Nina's objections to French Lieutenant's Woman vs. Anna Karenina!

 

Also, I can't stand Paige, her mewling demeanor and sullenness annoys me to no end, the brother is so much more appealing

 

.

 

Yes, it's funny because you can see a lot of Elizabeth in Paige, and I'm sure at that age she was just as self-righteous. (Hell, she's that self-righteous now!). But still even in flashbacks she's herself. Something about her harsher upbringing gave her a toughness and a poise or self-possession that made her come across as cool/intimidating. The harshest thing in Paige's life was her mother who wasn't very harsh--and she had a doting father for interference there too. I can see the accuracy of "mewling demeanor" there definitely--no wonder Elizabeth would prefer her to toughen up. 

 

I really like Henry. He's sometimes dismissed as just spouting pop culture stuff or prattling on, but his lines are actually pretty consistent in building a personality of a curious, thoughtful, well-meaning kid. Of course puberty tends to inject insecurity into everyone, but Henry's getting to be almost how old Paige was when the show started. I think it would be just as interesting to see the Elizabeth/Paige treatment applied to Philip/Henry. Paige and Elizabeth are both characters who demand everyone be aware of and respond to their emotional states so the other two often fade into the background.

 

Both Paige and Elizabeth are established as really craving praise and approval. Paige has fallen so hard for kind Pastor Tim (after Dad let her down by getting angry at her and not seeming totally supportive of the church stuff), Elizabeth had Zhukov and seems to also have more of that with Gabriel. Another parallel there is how when Gabriel asks about Paige Elizabeth spills lots of stuff about her--for obvious reasons they're more interested in the details of Paige than Henry. Where as Philip's instinctive response about Henry is to give Gabriel a more vague answer.

[Mrs peel]

 I get that Stan was mentally preoccupied with Nina’s predicament, but just after Stan hears from Gad that he was clocked by a diminutive woman who would have some facial injuries, Stan had met the Jennings in their kitchen, where he saw Elizabeth’s battered face and heard her lame “grocery attack” story. How could he not have made as least some tenuous connection?

 

One one level, probably because, as we saw in Season 1, his wife was reminding him to not be suspicious of everyone (right after they moved to DC when he completed his undercover work).  And I think it's typical - these are his friends who he knows own a travel agency (one he and friends have used).  I don't think anyone would immediately be suspicious that she was involved. 

 

Was her face noticeably battered in that scene?  I remember her with ice on the shoulder but didn't notice her face at the time (I do realize it was battered as they showed her covering the bruise).

 

And I want to know how they cover those bruises so well without looking like they have caked-on makeup! 

Edited January 30, 2015 by Mrs peel

[Helena Dax]

 

If the Center were smart they would bring in a teenage boy who was "all in" and have him develop Paige.  We women can do crazy things for love!  

 

And that's why the Pastor wanted Paige to help that guy with the food. I mean, obviously he must think the guy's a good kid and that they can make a cute couple, but you know,  if Paige has a boyfriend who also belongs to  that church, her commitment to the church will probably be stronger.

 

 

 

T

I get that Stan was mentally preoccupied with Nina’s predicament, but just after Stan hears from Gad that he was clocked by a diminutive woman who would have some facial injuries, Stan had met the Jennings in their kitchen, where he saw Elizabeth’s battered face and heard her lame “grocery attack” story. How could he not have made as least some tenuous connection?

 

I can't stand Stan, but he was  in love with Nina and, for all he knows, she's been convicted to death. That's huge. I don't think he was actually hearing anything they said after that. 

 

Maybe Brezhnev's death is what saves Nina's life? I mean, Andropov might have thought Nina could still be useful or something like that.

 

Loved this first episode. I like the new characters too.

[sistermagpie]

And that's why the Pastor wanted Paige to help that guy with the food. I mean, obviously he must think the guy's a good kid and that they can make a cute couple, but you know,  if Paige has a boyfriend who also belongs to  that church, her commitment to the church will probably be stronger.

 

 

I didn't think of it at the time, but you're right--and that makes for another nice little subtle moment. Elizabeth and Pastor Tim might both be working for different outcomes with Paige, but they're both very much set on guiding her into the "correct" life for herself by joining their group. So that little smile Tim gave Elizabeth when he sent Paige to the food and Elizabeth return smile was ironic on one hand, because Elizabeth doesn't really think she and Pastor Tim are working together, but at the same time correct because they're both adults who believe kids ought to be in a group to teach them the right way to live their lives. 

[RedHawk]

And I want to know how they cover those bruises so well without looking like they have caked-on makeup!

 

 

I know! Masters of disguise indeed. Sometimes I really do have to suspend my disbelief. Then I think, yes, people notice things without consciously putting 2 and 2 together. Sometimes you can hide a lie in plain sight. The kids have grown up with mom and dad doing what most of us would think of as highly odd and mysterious behaviors, yet it took a lot for Paige to overcome her "conditioning" and begin to question what the heck is really going on. She grew up with it so it seems more or less normal to her. Stan indeed thinks of Phillip as his friend the travel agent, a close friend in fact, and Elizabeth is Phillip's nice wife, so it's easier for him to just accept her story when he's focused on his own life (EST, Sandra, Nina, and all that).