Spoilers With Speculation

[Aeryn13]

Would the angels fight physically, though? I mean it`s possible but I imagine if it happened, they would get in some CGI and effects. 

The promo photos for the next episode are actually hilarious in the depiction of the "showdown" moment. Everyone has their weapons out, the human characters have guns drawn, Cas and Gabriel have angel blades and freaking Lucifer holds his fingers up for the "snapping" gesture. It`s like: dude, you need a holster for that or something?  

[belbar]

30 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I do wonder about his comment with the ADR tweet/instagram with the grunting and saying it was for a fight.... or was it?!

ETA: So this was tweeted on April 12. Was that before they started filming 12x23? How long after a scene is filmed would they do ADR? Because now that I listen to it again, I'm wondering if this was the scene where Ketch is curing him of the poisoned bullet wound?

The Instagram.

I think that was the grunting and groaning he was doing when he was hurt in the AU in the woods and was thrown to the ground and was being held face down and about to be hands tied.

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, belbar said:

I think that was the grunting and groaning he was doing when he was hurt in the AU in the woods and was thrown to the ground and was being held face down and about to be hands tied.

Hmm could be, but then why the enigmatic comment about it being a fight scene? Unless we were supposed to think they were the fun kind of grunts and moans.;) 

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Hmm could be, but then why the enigmatic comment about it being a fight scene? Unless we were supposed to think they were the fun kind of grunts and moans.;) 

...Or he's being possessed and changed in some way.

[belbar]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Hmm could be, but then why the enigmatic comment about it being a fight scene? Unless we were supposed to think they were the fun kind of grunts and moans.;) 

LOL Jensen is a uncorrectable teaser. He loves his double entendre. Any pun(ch) is good enough for him;)

[BoxManLocke]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

...Or he's being possessed and changed in some way.

The shooting of the finale had started only a day ago when he tweeted this (and that is, if he uploaded it right after filming it which isn't sure at all).

 

That was most likely done for episode 18, the timing fits.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, BoxManLocke said:

That was most likely done for episode 18, the timing fits.

Is it a certainty that Dean only changes in the finale? Maybe it's a longer process?

[BoxManLocke]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Is it a certainty that Dean only changes in the finale? Maybe it's a longer process?

It's not a certainty, but ADR is typically done towards the end of post-production and closer to the episode's air date (I'm basing this on ADR talks from other members of the SPN cast). Shooting of episode 22 was finished just a few days ago when Jensen posted the video so it doesn't really fit IMO.

[MysteryGuest]

My money is still on Dean/Michael.  I don't think Rowena would need to go to the same pains she did with Lucifer.  Michael isn't the devil.  Chuck couldn't be bothered to take the time to "fix" him, but he's not inherently evil.  She could pretty much put Michael anywhere.  I think the mess that Dabb and Singer will need to write themselves out of next season is the plethora of archangels running around...Lucifer, AU Michael, Dean/Michael and Gabriel.  So much for moving away from the angel/demon storylines.  I don't see them fixing heaven in the next two episodes, so that's probably on the plate for next year, too.  I think we'll get some resolution with Mary and Jack this season, and the big reveal of whoever Dean becomes, and then stay tuned for next season...

[BoxManLocke]

29 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I think the mess that Dabb and Singer will need to write themselves out of next season is the plethora of archangels running around...Lucifer, AU Michael, Dean/Michael and Gabriel.  So much for moving away from the angel/demon storylines.  I don't see them fixing heaven in the next two episodes, so that's probably on the plate for next year, too.  I think we'll get some resolution with Mary and Jack this season, and the big reveal of whoever Dean becomes, and then stay tuned for next season...

 

I agree that the Jack chapter will be closed in the finale (what a waste). He's going to stay in the AU.

 

The thing is, the writers need to make sure Sam and Dean can't contact him to solve their problems. And obviously when Dean gets possessed, of course Sam's instinct will be to reach out to their most powerful ally and I'm sure Jack would agree to help.

 

But if Sam has no way to get archangel grace, that permanently closes any means of communications with Jack. That's why I believe Lucifer, Gabriel and AU Michael will all be dealt with in the next two episodes. They'll either die or stay in the AU.

Edited May 8, 2018 by BoxManLocke

[AwesomO4000]

25 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I don't see them fixing heaven in the next two episodes, so that's probably on the plate for next year, too. 

This just made me have a thought... what if something happens since heaven is in disarray. What if the angels have to leave for some reason for a hot minute due to AU stuff coming through or something and some souls / ghosts get out due to fritzes in the power before the angels can get back? Would the ghosts / souls be more powerful, or pissed off, or desperate, or something? Could there be someone in heaven who maybe shouldn't be or who is iffy who might possess Dean?  Ghosts don't necessarily need permission.

That wouldn't fit with the stepping up spoiler, but even if something didn't possess Dean, maybe they start possessing people or hurting people, and Dean has to do something quickly to stop it that he would rather not. Maybe showing the "power" blinking had a purpose. Maybe we're going to get some loose canon souls escaping heaven?

[MysteryGuest]

15 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

This just made me have a thought... what if something happens since heaven is in disarray. What if the angels have to leave for some reason for a hot minute due to AU stuff coming through or something and some souls / ghosts get out due to fritzes in the power before the angels can get back? Would the ghosts / souls be more powerful, or pissed off, or desperate, or something? Could there be someone in heaven who maybe shouldn't be or who is iffy who might possess Dean?  Ghosts don't necessarily need permission.

That wouldn't fit with the stepping up spoiler, but even if something didn't possess Dean, maybe they start possessing people or hurting people, and Dean has to do something quickly to stop it that he would rather not. Maybe showing the "power" blinking had a purpose. Maybe we're going to get some loose canon souls escaping heaven?

I think the escaping souls could definitely be a storyline for next season.  As for how that relates to Dean, I have no clue.  That wouldn't really fit with the "long time coming" comment, but then we've been misled before.

[Lemuria]

The highlight blurb in the new EW magazine for the finale:

Quote

"Two things that probably won't merit a round of beer:  Lucifer (Mark Pelligrino) finally meets his mega-powerful son Jack (Alexander Calvert), a fallen angel-human hybrid.  And an impulsive decision by heroes Dean (Jensen Ackles) and Sam (Jared Padelecki) could change one of their lives forever."

The reason I bolded the section is that it seems different from the original description that I had read (assuming I'm remembering it correctly :) ).  It seems that whatever the decision is, the brothers are on the same page about it.   Which adds a bit of head-scratching to my trying to figure out what might be happening.  I can't see either brother being fine with one of them saying yes to a possession.

[Castiels Cat]

On 5/8/2018 at 6:42 PM, MysteryGuest said:

My money is still on Dean/Michael.  I don't think Rowena would need to go to the same pains she did with Lucifer.  Michael isn't the devil.  Chuck couldn't be bothered to take the time to "fix" him, but he's not inherently evil.  She could pretty much put Michael anywhere.  I think the mess that Dabb and Singer will need to write themselves out of next season is the plethora of archangels running around...Lucifer, AU Michael, Dean/Michael and Gabriel.  So much for moving away from the angel/demon storylines.  I don't see them fixing heaven in the next two episodes, so that's probably on the plate for next year, too.  I think we'll get some resolution with Mary and Jack this season, and the big reveal of whoever Dean becomes, and then stay tuned for next season...

Yeah. They have left a lot on the plate. I cannot think thst very much big scale is going down until next year.

What probably happens...

1.  Confrontation... fighting... AU Michael escapes through a rift to Superverse.  Scenes of War to less cool rock music than it should be.

2.  Lucifer is very very bad and very very annoying.  Somebody dies.  Yada yada yada.  Lucifer dies saving Jack or vice versa or Jack loses/uses/is tricked into using his grace to save somebody.  He is too unstable and too powerful so he cannot continue as is.

3.  They get back through a rift.  Does not matter Who, how, where.  Mary stays behind?  Creating more emotional trauma for Dean... proverbial straw.

4. Rowena has already executed plan B. Michael.

5. Flashback: we learn Dean and Michael have been communicating since Dean prayed or they start communicating now. Cliff hanger.

6.Dean!Michael has interesting sartorial choices.

On 5/8/2018 at 8:30 PM, Lemuria said:

The highlight blurb in the new EW magazine for the finale:

The reason I bolded the section is that it seems different from the original description that I had read (assuming I'm remembering it correctly :) ).  It seems that whatever the decision is, the brothers are on the same page about it.   Which adds a bit of head-scratching to my trying to figure out what might be happening.  I can't see either brother being fine with one of them saying yes to a possession.

Eh... promos are so often poorly written and misleading.

On 5/8/2018 at 7:33 PM, MysteryGuest said:

I think the escaping souls could definitely be a storyline for next season.  As for how that relates to Dean, I have no clue.  That wouldn't really fit with the "long time coming" comment, but then we've been misled before.

My impression was that Naomi shut heaven down and had zero interest in helping Castiel wirh anything he mentioned including AU Michael and the impending invasion.   She has prioritized her meager resources for keeping heaven open.

Edited May 11, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

4 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I think the escaping souls could definitely be a storyline for next season.  As for how that relates to Dean, I have no clue.  That wouldn't really fit with the "long time coming" comment, but then we've been misled before.

It is a compelling reason for Dean!Michael to step up and subtext that suggests the writing is leading to him rather than other spurious spec that simply cannot provide help with the setious ssues they face.  

As to whether it becomes an actual storyline depends on how things play out.  One presumes AU Michael will not win.  If so at the least Cas and Gabriel if he survives should go to heaven to help or volunteer. 

If AU Michael is defeated his surviving angels might want to be angels again and help replenish heaven.

Dean!Michael ... Michael may decide to fix heaven once he has done whatever he wants to do.  I sense a dark storyline brewing so this may not be immediate but with Singer his frolic cannot last more than 6 episodes.

If a few ghosts fall before this is resolved we might get a few motw that are based on some old computer game I susoect or somesuch.  They love their references.

On 5/7/2018 at 10:45 AM, Myrelle said:

Do we know if Billie is going to make an appearance in either of these last two?

IA that Rowena will open the cage, but I'm wondering if it might not be at Dean's behest; and I'm thinking that it will either be JDM or Matt Cohen who will be Michael's host while in the cage. My money is actually on JDM, though, tbh.

I can't stop ruminating on the finale. It is ridiculous. I hope it's worth it.

She told Dean See you Soon during her last appearance which is why I think he may be slowly setting from the bullet poison... not that she will let him die... she has already said he is,needed because he has a purpose... He has work to do...

Be Dean!Michael!

[Castiels Cat]

On 5/7/2018 at 10:45 AM, Myrelle said:

Do we know if Billie is going to make an appearance in either of these last two?

IA that Rowena will open the cage, but I'm wondering if it might not be at Dean's behest; and I'm thinking that it will either be JDM or Matt Cohen who will be Michael's host while in the cage. My money is actually on JDM, though, tbh.

I can't stop ruminating on the finale. It is ridiculous. I hope it's worth it.

Yes it looka like Rowena will move Michael to the from the cage because she needs archangel grace... that was my take from last week.

And yes one presumes that he will look like John... nobody really cares about Adam.  

My spec is that he probably has been communicating with Dean on the down low since Dean prayed in 13:1 much like Lucifer started communicating with Sam after he prayed in 11:1, only the show has hidden this from us.  Perhaps some of Dean's deteriorating mental state could be attributed to this.  

As I recall being pestered by an archangel can lead to disturbed mental states (Nick) and historically many people experiencing states of profound religious ecstasy were considered to be mentally ill like Joan of Arc.  So perhaps it is not just Dean's usual low self esteem and depression at work.  Maybe he has a touch of the crazy archangel blues.

I too am excited for the next two episodes.

[Myrelle]

Quote

"Two things that probably won't merit a round of beer:  Lucifer (Mark Pelligrino) finally meets his mega-powerful son Jack (Alexander Calvert), a fallen angel-human hybrid.  And an impulsive decision by heroes Dean (Jensen Ackles) and Sam (Jared Padelecki) could change one of their lives forever."

12 hours ago, Lemuria said:

The reason I bolded the section is that it seems different from the original description that I had read (assuming I'm remembering it correctly :) ).  It seems that whatever the decision is, the brothers are on the same page about it.   Which adds a bit of head-scratching to my trying to figure out what might be happening.  I can't see either brother being fine with one of them saying yes to a possession.

If it's a true role reversal, as Jensen stated it was, then Sam would be have to be on-board with the plan just as Dean had to be on-board with Sam's plan to take on Lucifer in the S5 finale. And it would better inform Sam's rant about Dean relegating him back to the kiddie table again this season, too.

[Pondlass1]

I really hope next season is not about souls - or glowy grace being passed about.  Or even angels and their never ending issues.

I'm hoping we get back to basics with an intelligent and malevolent Big Bad who's never been seen or mentioned before and who remains bad throughout the season and not redeemed into a cinnamon roll.

I hope whatever Dean's story is - that it lasts a few episodes into next season.

 Lots of hoping going on...

[Bobcatkitten]

If the main story next year is anything angel or archangel related I will be disappointed. Monsters people! Monsters!

[Bergamot]

18 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

The promo photos for the next episode are actually hilarious in the depiction of the "showdown" moment. Everyone has their weapons out, the human characters have guns drawn, Cas and Gabriel have angel blades and freaking Lucifer holds his fingers up for the "snapping" gesture. It`s like: dude, you need a holster for that or something?

Ha! That picture made me laugh as well!

Maybe I missed this, but do we know who or what they are all pointing their weapons --- or "snapping fingers" -- toward? At first glance I thought it was Lucifer, and that this was a scene that occurs right at the beginning of the episode, following his appearance at the end of the last one. But as you point out, Lucifer is there with them pointing his "weapon" as well, on their side of the confrontation. Does Michael appear in this next episode?

1 hour ago, Pondlass1 said:

I hope whatever Dean's story is - that it lasts a few episodes into next season.

I hope this as well -- so, so much! Not like the way Demon Dean was ended to clear the way for that stupid 200th episode. Don't we have like a dozen or so episodes next season before the 300th episode? This story at least needs to last until then.  Or longer -- but at least until then, just in case they have some silly gimmicky episode idea for number 300 that they think requires a resolution.

[Bobcatkitten]

AUMichael is in the final two episodes.

[Aeryn13]

Okay, the brothers coming up with an "impulsive decision" together certainly nixes my previous theory on how events could be unfolding. But if it`s not on Dean alone, it does give me more hope that the reason for it all will be for heroic, world-saving purposes which is a biggie for me. 

Now if the joint decision-making is true then whoever Dean becomes might be a more unintended outcome. Not really the cause-effect from the decision itself. 

I seriously wouldn`t put it past them to re-do with Dean what they just did with Sam. Namely, the brothers are trying something to save people, Dean somehow ends up dead (the stepping up part could relate to whatever he is trying to do to save people, not a decision to say yes to possession). Dean being dead fits with Billie`s remark. 

And it just so happens that our!Michael wanders through the rift and for cockamamie reasons he can not only resurrect Dean but also possess him.

(Sam-fans. avert your eyes for the next spec: what if they somehow re-do the Gadreel thing, just with Sam and Dean`s role reverted?) I doubt it but wouldn`t put it past them. I`m more with the cockamamie reasons.

I do hope everything is a lot more epic than what I just described. 

[Jonesy]

17 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

My money is still on Dean/Michael.  I don't think Rowena would need to go to the same pains she did with Lucifer.  Michael isn't the devil.  Chuck couldn't be bothered to take the time to "fix" him, but he's not inherently evil.  She could pretty much put Michael anywhere.  I think the mess that Dabb and Singer will need to write themselves out of next season is the plethora of archangels running around...Lucifer, AU Michael, Dean/Michael and Gabriel.  So much for moving away from the angel/demon storylines.  I don't see them fixing heaven in the next two episodes, so that's probably on the plate for next year, too.  I think we'll get some resolution with Mary and Jack this season, and the big reveal of whoever Dean becomes, and then stay tuned for next season...

Agree it's Michael/Dean and that Rowena won't need a ton of time to do this in leaderless Hell...need not take much episode space.  Also agree no way that Michael v. Lucifer v. everybody ends anytime soon--too much to do.  Disagree that they are wrapping up Jack especially--he's the rare character that almost all factions of fandom like and I think they know that.  I expect Alex to be a regular again and not shuttled off to AU Land...not sure about Mary.   With all these Archangels around Jack's power won't be in the way storywise.

Edited May 9, 2018 by Jakes

[Bergamot]

1 hour ago, Bobcatkitten said:

AUMichael is in the final two episodes.

Thanks!

[Bobcatkitten]

There's a new preview out but I can't get it to link. Dean is telling a confused Jack to kill the devil. Oh my!

Edited May 9, 2018 by Bobcatkitten

[BabySpinach]

 

Fkin' Mary....

[Aeryn13]

Oy, I hate that Dean got the "we need you" line because it is such an easy thing to shoot down and props Mary`s stance. Not looking forward to this part. 

And she is even right, they don`t need her for shit. Seriously, she brings them nothing valuable or positive. I hope they and especially Dean finally gets that and moves on. 

At least the Au-world can use her as an able-bodied fighter. 

And Lucifer gave them an exact estimate, based on his dribbled out grace of "31 hours". I guess those will run out just the episode closes. Though now I`m not sure if every spec was off and people WILL make it back to our world. Including possibly AU!Michael.  

Edited May 9, 2018 by Aeryn13

[BabySpinach]

9 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Oy, I hate that Dean got the "we need you" line because it is such an easy thing to shoot down and props Mary`s stance. Not looking forward to this part. 

And she is even right, they don`t need her for shit. Seriously, she brings them nothing valuable or positive. I hope they and especially Dean finally gets that and moves on. 

At least the Au-world can use her as an able-bodied fighter. 

And Lucifer gave them an exact estimate, based on his dribbled out grace of "31 hours". I guess those will run out just the episode closes. Though now I`m not sure if every spec was off and people WILL make it back to our world. Including possibly AU!Michael.  

Moved to bitter spoilers.

[Jonesy]

I want Mary to stay--time to close her time on the show.  It gives them a good reason to make that move.

[BoxManLocke]

Garbage sneak peek as expected.

 

But to be fair, no writer could make a scene like this feel genuine. They simply didn't spend enough time in the AU this season.

[ahrtee]

I wonder if AU Michael invades our world she'll follow to fight here, or if she'll stay behind with "her people" and leave Sam and Dean to fight for "their world"?  (Or more likely, she'll bring her own army to win the day here and then go back to help them rebuild?)  

[Bobcatkitten]

Did she just fucking say "you can't expect me to abandon them" to her own freaking children? Dean should be pissed. And I hope he doesn't calm down and forgive her. That's not the preview I had seen though. 

Ah, this should go over well here....

[S Cook Productions]

Hi All, this is my first post! However, I've been a lurker for over a year, so I feel like I know all of you! :)

I couldn't join earlier because I only had an aol address previously...but I've been lurking since the "Stuck in the Middle" episode last year. I think that was my fave ep of last season, and I wanted to see what people were saying about it, so I found this forum...and stalked you all for the past year, lol, sorry.  So.....quick summary on me: I love this show, I really like this season, and I usually agree with Sue B. I'm a Cas-fan first and foremost, but not a shipper. I've been to a few SUPERNATURAL cons, always a good time.

 

Ok, my spec- why is no one talking about the possibility of Rapheal??!! He's the only Arch-Angel that hasn't been mentioned AT ALL. Seems to me, explaining away his death would be just as easy as explaining away Gabriel's...

[gonzosgirrl]

51 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

 

Fkin' Mary....

You can't expect to abandon them. Uhhh, yeah, Mary, that's exactly what we expect from you.

[Casseiopeia]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

You can't expect to abandon them. Uhhh, yeah, Mary, that's exactly what we expect from you.

Poor Sam Smith,  as if her character couldn't get more despised.   OTH....Yay!  Mary is staying in MonsterLand!!

[BoxManLocke]

53 minutes ago, S Cook Productions said:

Hi All, this is my first post! However, I've been a lurker for over a year, so I feel like I know all of you! :)

I couldn't join earlier because I only had an aol address previously...but I've been lurking since the "Stuck in the Middle" episode last year. I think that was my fave ep of last season, and I wanted to see what people were saying about it, so I found this forum...and stalked you all for the past year, lol, sorry.  So.....quick summary on me: I love this show, I really like this season, and I usually agree with Sue B. I'm a Cas-fan first and foremost, but not a shipper. I've been to a few SUPERNATURAL cons, always a good time.

 

Ok, my spec- why is no one talking about the possibility of Rapheal??!! He's the only Arch-Angel that hasn't been mentioned AT ALL. Seems to me, explaining away his death would be just as easy as explaining away Gabriel's...

Welcome :)

To answer your question, no one talked about the possibility of Raphael simply because no one talks about Raphael, period. He was mind-numbingly bland and only connected to Castiel. Seems to me nobody's interested in having him back, since they could have showed him in the AU but didn't even bother. And I hope he remains a distant memory tbh

[catrox14]

4 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

You can't expect to abandon them. Uhhh, yeah, Mary, that's exactly what we expect from you.

Wow. Well, they have finally put the nail in Mary's coffin for me. She is now officially for me worsen than John. She is so lacking awareness it's ridiculous.

[Lemuria]

"They need me."  Really?  Why?  Just exactly who are you that they can't fight on just as well without you?  

Don't get me wrong: I'll dance a jig (well, if I could dance! ) if I never see her--or even hear her name--again.  I just can't get over the hubris.

[Myrelle]

10 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

And Lucifer gave them an exact estimate, based on his dribbled out grace of "31 hours". I guess those will run out just the episode closes. Though now I`m not sure if every spec was off and people WILL make it back to our world. Including possibly AU!Michael.

The title of the episode is Exodus. Maybe they will attempt to take everyone with them and yes, AUMichael and his angels follow and just like that they will break all kinds of worldly rules and as Billie said, a stray soul here or there is manageable, but all of these souls will likely make a reset necessary and that's what has to be prevented and all of this just so they can get their sainted Mother Mary back. Blech.

Sam Smith's acting was just terrible in that scene.

1 hour ago, Lemuria said:

Don't get me wrong: I'll dance a jig (well, if I could dance! ) if I never see her--or even hear her name--again.  I just can't get over the hubris.

Ditto.

[catrox14]

10 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

You can't expect to abandon them. Uhhh, yeah, Mary, that's exactly what we expect from you.

I love Dean's face when she said that. My headcanon is that he was like 'Um. NO you really have no fucking idea of what we've been through." Gods, I hate Mary. I legit hate her.

"I respect these people".  Really, bitch?  (I won't apologize for using that word. I think she is a bitch).  You show more respect for people you don't even know that you EVER have your own children. Holy shit. Do the writers really think we are supposed to LIKE this and side with her? Fuck no.  Holy shit. 

[Myrelle]

23 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Do the writers really think we are supposed to LIKE this and side with her? Fuck no.  Holy shit. 

They will have the brothers name her all loving and sainted and caring in order to try and get us to side with her and think of her that way, too. That's obviously all that they feel is needed. *sigh*

[Bergamot]

16 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I wonder if AU Michael invades our world she'll follow to fight here, or if she'll stay behind with "her people" and leave Sam and Dean to fight for "their world"?  (Or more likely, she'll bring her own army to win the day here and then go back to help them rebuild?)  

Yes, Mary seems to have conveniently forgot what they found out a couple episodes ago: that Michael and his army had all gone "south" to "a place where the walls between the world are thin" and were all going to cross over into our world.  (And that when Jakob said to let him go, because as he said, why not let Michael be some other world's problem for a change, Mary shamed him for saying it: "How can you say that? That's seven billion innocent people!")

7 hours ago, Lemuria said:

"They need me."  Really?  Why?  Just exactly who are you that they can't fight on just as well without you?  

Don't get me wrong: I'll dance a jig (well, if I could dance! ) if I never see her--or even hear her name--again.  I just can't get over the hubris.

Right? I mean, sure, Mary can fight, but she is not irreplaceable -- they have other fighters, and there is nothing she can do there that no one else can do.  The rebels might need Jack, because he obviously can do things that no one else can do, but they don't really need Mary.

But whatever. One consistent thing about Mary as a character has been that she is going to do whatever it is that she has decided she wants to do, even if it is diametrically opposed to the previous thing she has declared that she wants to do. She doesn't want to hunt, she wants to hunt, she wants to be back with her boys (the "heavenly" versions, that is), she wants to be anywhere other than with her boys, she wants to work with the BMOL, she wants to fight with the rebels. And the other consistent thing about her as a character is that for some reason we are supposed to see her as noble and self-sacrificing when she makes these choices, but I'm not buying it, no matter how many times the writers try to tell me it is so.

[companionenvy]

That was actually better than my expectations. From previous comments by Sam Smith, it had sounded like Mary's stated reason for staying in the AU was going to be that she found it "pure," like Dean in purgatory, and liked the constant fight. But honestly, I see her point. I don't think Mary is irreplaceable, by any means, but apparently she is a leader in the AU - and she has spent a substantial amount of time fighting with these people. I can see how cutting and running wouldn't seem like an option for her.

If Sam or Dean were in a comparable situation, I just can't see either of them accepting an escape plan that got them to safety but left their allies behind in danger for any reason less than a loved one being in mortal peril back at home. If one of them had a dependent child, that would be a different matter. But while Sam and Dean might long for a relationship with their mother, they certainly aren't dependent on her. Given that, I'm not sure that Mary's ethics are out of whack in this situation. 

The question for me is whether or not the arc actually will end with Mary staying behind. My gut is yes, but I suspect the barrier between worlds won't prove totally impregnable, and we'll probably see her pop up again in seasons 14 or 15. 

[catrox14]

Here is what doesn't make any sense to me. How much time has has passed since she met up with the rebels and started fighting with them? A day. A week? A month?  We haven't been shown that she is capable at all of being a "warrior" with any kind of battle smarts or even adept at guerilla warfare.  She learned how to use ray guns to kill monsters from the BMOL. She managed to not figure out that Ketch was a POS who she shouldn't have trusted.  We are TOLD she has becme some kind of leader.  What has she done that makes her a leader in that world?  Because she's looked after Jack? Because Jack has protected her? It's terribad storytelling IMO for the show to constantly tell and not show.

IMO, Mary is staying because she is still ashamed of herself in this world. She's ashamed of her attitude and behavior towards the boys.  I think she might even have some messiah complex that over in the AU she gets be the hero and the protector of the ostensible true savior of the AU and that's Jack, not Mary.  And even Jack shouldn't necessarily be involved in their war. How is that Mary's existence isn't a problem in that universe when she already existed.  If the idea of a fractured timeline is why the AU crumbled then Mary being there will screw even further. Her presence shouldn't even be a thing really.  

I honestly don't think Dean and Sam WOULD stay in that world and fight. It's not their world. It was never their fight. They never intended it to be their fight. And it's NOT WRONG for it to not be their fight. It's not their world.  I mean there could be a bigger cost to anyone from this world getting involved in the politics and war in that world.   The only crossed over again to save Mary and Jack.

I will give the writers ALL the credit if they manage to actually show me that entities crossing worlds and getting involved in their affairs makes things worse. Not better. 

[Pondlass1]

Well, at least Sam and Dean won't have to fork out for flowers or chocolates on Mother's Day.  She can hardly be called their "Mother" anyway.  She can't bear to be around them most of the time.  Hate is a strong word - but I truly hate this character.  Thanks Andrew :(

- On another note, I love how Jensen is always in Dean mode, checking around all the time, Dean never relaxes, always on guard.

[companionenvy]

50 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I honestly don't think Dean and Sam WOULD stay in that world and fight. It's not their world. It was never their fight. They never intended it to be their fight. And it's NOT WRONG for it to not be their fight. It's not their world.  I mean there could be a bigger cost to anyone from this world getting involved in the politics and war in that world.   The only crossed over again to save Mary and Jack.

I will give the writers ALL the credit if they manage to actually show me that entities crossing worlds and getting involved in their affairs makes things worse. Not better. 

I don't know. A lot of things aren't your fight, until suddenly, circumstances intervene and they are. I'd say that once Mary would up in the AU, with no immediate way out, it became her fight. 

I've agreed with you all along that Mary's skill level as shown on screen is disproportionate to what it should be given what we know of her background; she should, IMO, be at best an average hunter and not a superwoman. But at this point, that ship has sailed, and she's clearly being written as someone who is supposed to have an impressive skill set who we can assume is key to the fight in the AU. So it isn't even just being willing to leave these people behind and take the escape route being offered to her and only her. It is depriving "her" people - who can ill afford more losses -- of someone who apparently has become an integral part of the resistance.

Given the episode's title, I'm wondering, like some others, if Sam and Dean don't respond to Mary's objection by trying to help everyone to escape to our Earth. 

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

IMO, be at best an average hunter and not a superwoman. But at this point, that ship has sailed, and she's clearly being written as someone who is supposed to have an impressive skill set who we can assume is key to the fight in the AU. So it isn't even just being willing to leave these people behind and take the escape route being offered to her and only her. It is depriving "her" people - who can ill afford mo losses -- of someone who apparently has become an integral part of the resistance.

Sure, she's being written that way and I'm critical of that kind of writing. And I can see the game and I reject it. I don't buy it. And I won't go along with it.

15 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

Given the episode's title, I'm wondering, like some others, if Sam and Dean don't respond to Mary's objection by trying to help everyone to escape to our Earth. 

Circumstances change. And there are wars that aren't everyone's wars. IMO, if Sam and Dean go along with Mary they are stupid. And I'll be pissed if they do it.  Dean has been told explicitly that it's all a house of cards by Billie.  And if they do then AU Michael and his minions will surely come over which means they've brought over the enemy too

[Pondlass1]

The Mother has become another in a long line of TV Mary Sues.  She's the bestest at everything except being a damn Mother!

I wish Amara had gifted Dean socks and underwear.

[companionenvy]

31 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

And if they do then AU Michael and his minions will surely come over which means they've brought over the enemy too

Although weirdly, one of the most obvious answers to the problem of there only being 8 angels left in our universe is bringing over a bunch of AU angels. If there are a small enough number of humans remaining, in theory, maybe they could bring over all of the humans and a bunch of angels to our world and leave AU-world to die.

The problem, of course, being that the AU angels are apparently evil. But it still seems more than coincidental that the show has introduced an AU with tons of angels in the same season that they have written a plot about our heaven being depleted. 

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I will give the writers ALL the credit if they manage to actually show me that entities crossing worlds and getting involved in their affairs makes things worse. Not better. 

I think they're going to show us this, but I'm betting the ranch that it won't be shown as predominantly being Sainted Mother Mary's fault for wanting to stay; nope, IMO, it will be shown as predominantly the brothers' fault for wanting/needing her to come back with them. Billie was the writers' mouthpiece in Advanced Thanatology, IMO, when she foreshadowed this exact situation by stating that she didn't need the brothers messing around and with other worlds.