S01.E10: 10

[Direwolf]

I wonder how Detective Jeffries ends up with the surveillance tape from Planned Parenthood. Was it given to him by someone (Helen, Helen's mom) who wanted to stick it to him? 

[IMCranky]

I wonder how Detective Jeffries ends up with the surveillance tape from Planned Parenthood. Was it given to him by someone (Helen, Helen's mom) who wanted to stick it to him?

Yeah, I questioned this same thing in the Speculation thread. Was wondering if Planned Parenthood would still have the security tapes a few years after the altercation, or is it more likely that the detective got the private investigator's video from either Helen or her mother.

[meep.meep]

In their last conversation before the detective shows up to arrest Noah, Alison and Noah were talking about how busy they'd be the next day. Then Alison asks, "Can you be here when Julianne leaves?"  Is Julianne their daughter? If so, and if their daughter is (presumably) very young, why would she be "leaving"? I thought that was a strange question, or at least a strange way to word it. 

 

Also, the detective only says Noah is under arrest. He doesn't say what for. It would be very interesting to find out that the detective has been suspecting someone else for the murder all along, and is arresting Noah for something else, whether it's obstruction, bribery, or whatever.

I figured Julianne was the nanny.

I liked the episode and think that West is very attractive and that he and Ruth Wilson have lots of chemistry. I think that Jackson's performance in Alison's version of the last scene was appallingly bad. I don't believe for a minute that he pulled a gun on Noah, Whitney, Helen and Alison. I think that Noah's version is correct.

I want to know what happened after she got on the train.

[Glade]

It occured to me that while they both remember this as the pivotal moment where they really did choose to be together, that doesn't mean they were together every day between then and the night that Noah was arrested.  So while I found it a letdown to reveal that much, I'm guessing that there are many years to explore next season (I take it their daughter is 3-5 years old).  In any case though, I hope that there are no more montages of Noah having sex, as I have no interest whatsoever in watching that...yuck. 

 

I thought I heard the detective pick up the phone to "Stevie" which could be someone of either gender, but we'll see.

Edited December 23, 2014 by Glade

[minimilah]

There are a lot of people angry at well-to-do middle-aged white men, aren't there?

i don't think so, lol. i guess the show is so interesting that people come up with lots of different stories and ideas.

and i honestly wouldn't put it past max... for some reason.

[JenE4]

I thought they had one "kid"--a daughter--and assumed that Julianne was the babysitter. But I guess you really never know with this show! I assume Julianne will be someone important next season, or they wouldn't have given her a name. Conversely, I think Steven only got a name to show that Jefferies was lying to both Noah and Alison. Although I suppose that Jefferies COULD have been married to a woman and then had a long-term "on the down low" relationship with Steven so that he's now both divorced AND happily married to a long-term partner. Lol. I love this show and this board! We can make up the most ridiculous plotlines and they COULD be true because, you know, PERSPECTIVE. ;-)

[Boundary]

I figured Julianne was the nanny.

 

Me too.

 

I liked the episode and think that West is very attractive and that he and Ruth Wilson have lots of chemistry. I think that Jackson's performance in Alison's version of the last scene was appallingly bad. I don't believe for a minute that he pulled a gun on Noah, Whitney, Helen and Alison. I think that Noah's version is correct.

 

Chemistry is in the eye of the beholder but I also think West and Wilson have lots of it. Cole pulled a gun in both memories and Noah's version stops when Alison's takes over. Nothing would set off Noah more than Scotty being there, so I bet that part happened. Sure Scotty could take care of himself and fight back but I don't think he did, Noah is Whitney's father after all. There are two things about Cole that make me believe he pulled a gun.

1. Alison had just ripped his heart into smithereens 

2. Cole is a drug dealer, intimidating people comes with the territory

 

When Alison begged him not to shoot the Solloways and shoot her instead, Cole heard her because he cares for her. And of course he couldn't shoot her, so what's the next best thing? Let her live with the memory of Cole blowing himself up, it would've worked too. If he'd gone through with it I don't think Noah and Alison would've made it. That might have sent Alison right over the edge. But she talked him out of it and having recently been affected by a stranger's suicide, Noah could see Alison needed support afterwards. Everyone was just leaving her alone in the kitchen, and he just couldn't. And it's that support that she gets from Noah (that Cole somehow can't manage, for whatever reason), he just looks at her and he knows. He did it in the hospital too. 

Edited December 23, 2014 by Boundary

[RimaTheBirdGirl]

Helen telling Whitney she thought Noah was a sociopath made me laugh at the fictional depiction, but in real-life was sort of below the belt.

 

The "sociopath" label first came from Noah, and was hurled in the direction of Whitney, but NOT so she could hear it.  Noah was fulminating when he and Helen were working out how to deal with the Whitney's cruel texting and her friend's suicide attempt.  (By the pool, either just before or just after the blow-up with the Interfering Lawyered-Up Grandparents.)  

 

In the pool conversation, Noah was frothy -- at Whitney, at his in-laws, at Whitney's school -- at everyone.  Helen was urging him to calm.  She didn't love the "sociopath" characterization.

 

It was grimly funny that Helen would use that same word against Noah, to their daughter.  I don't think it was happenstance.  

 

And by the way, the actress playing Whitney was comic gold in that scene.  Every "sociopath" from her was just deft.  I have come to have great cumulative regard for the actress -- Julia Goldani Telles.  

Edited December 23, 2014 by RimaTheBirdGirl

[cardigirl]

I don't like Helen and her "I hate you!" then seconds later "I don't want a divorce". What's her deal?

 

I found that perfectly believable in that Helen has been hurt deeply by Noah's actions and she hates him for doing this to their relationship, and yet, she still wants him back, wants the old life back.  It's only been 4 months, not enough time to really get over a 20+year relationship.  So there is lots of anger but also lots of longing and grief.

[Bcharmer]

I figured Julianne was the nanny.

 

Probably so!

[Boundary]

I have come to have great cumulative regard for the actress -- Julia Goldani Telles.  

 

Me too. A lot is going on with Whitney but the actress only gets a couple of scenes per episode and still manages to paint this whole character.

[taragel]

Did they say the daughter's name? Wasn't it something like Charlotte? (Or did I make that up entirely? Lol) 

 

I too thought Julianne was a nanny.

Edited December 23, 2014 by taragel

[stormy weather]

 

The other thing that bugs me with Noah, and this was something a poster pointed out on another forum, is that Noah does all of these misdeeds and is ultimately rewarded for it.

 

That's the thing that bothers me the most about this show, the fact that both Noah and Allison keep getting nothing but love from everybody after what they did. Both spouses take them back, Noah still sees the children, he moves back home, and instead of coming back with his tail between his legs, he still has the guts to get mad at Helen for calling him a sociopath ("when she was angry", she even points out) and at her mother who, insufferable as she is, has seen her daughter cheated on and then abandoned. Allison, same as above, can come back and forth from New York as she pleases, Cole still tells her he only wants her and her mother-in-law protects her and justifies her when she is rightfully insulted by Helen. I don't understand why no one works up the courage to tell these people they're just awful, instead of rewarding them for their complete lack of empathy.

 

 

 

Even after she begged Noah to come back, showing some vulnerability, at least in Noah's account, it didn't take too long to revert to the raging bitch when he suggested they let it go and she said something like "I don't care what you want, I'm still going to press charges."

 

The "raging bitch"? I think Helen's reaction in that situation, after being dumped like that after 20 years and four kids, in the middle of a family crisis, with the words "I'm in love with someone else" was more than acceptable and very dignified. An older guy had just got her 16 year old daughter pregnant, they're not fighting about who wants what flavor of ice cream. 

 

Also, in general I feel Scottie has been too much of a marginal character in the series to make him the center of everything. I mean I would've been more affected by and more invested in the murder mystery if the dead guy had been someone closer to Noah's family or even closer to Allison. And of course we don't know yet whether it was Noah (or Allison) that killed Scottie, but in both cases it's very hard to believe, they just don't look like the type that would go to that extreme. 

Edited December 24, 2014 by stormy weather

[minimilah]

The "raging bitch"? I think Helen's reaction in that situation, after being dumped like that after 20 years and four kids, in the middle of a family crisis, with the words "I'm in love with someone else" was more than acceptable and very dignified.

helen just can't win - if she's out of control, screaming, insulting or crying = she is seen as a raging bitch BUT if she's calm, composed, cold = she is seen as manipulative & a control freak.

i find helen's reactions & emotions realistic. she went from being calm & composed, in denial, screaming & throwing noah out, taking him back, begging him to stay & promising to change, being sad and depressed... until she finally (seemingly) accepts it in the end. 5 stages of grief.

i also think she handled it with dignity... imagine coming home and realizing your husband just fucked another woman in YOUR marital bed. all hell would break loose if it was me in helen's place.

Does tweeting necessarily mean explaining?

i think it does, honestly.

she was probably told (just like all the other writers) to offer some explanations and to open conversations with fans in order to get their reaction and some feedback.

i think treem has better things to do than to sit on twitter and explain shit to fans - but like i said, i think she was told to do that by the bosses.

Edited December 24, 2014 by minimilah

[Blakeston]

Agreed, but I'm not so sure that him saying, "Hey, babe" makes the detective gay, which was the implication I was replying to. Unless there was some other clue I missed. But also...do you think the show made it a point to show that he told them both different stories or do you think that we're still seeing the interview with the detective from each character's perspective?

 

In real life, I would agree that a man saying "babe" when answering a phone call from another man isn't proof that he's gay.

 

But on a TV show? I can't fathom the writers including that dialogue if it wasn't intended to convey the character's sexual orientation. They'd have to know how that line would come across to viewers.

 

And I think it makes perfect sense for them to reveal that the detective is gay at that point in the story. He pointedly gave Noah and Alison two different stories about his life. The writers had to know the audience would analyze that a lot. And then after all that, they show us that both stories were complete BS! It's a funny cap to the interrogation business.

Sarah Treem, David Simon, along with many other directors/producers, are not complete idiots. The vast majority of men who look anything like male romantic leads in serious dramas can, in fact, seduce a much larger number of women of all ages than the average schmuck. It's even more true of those with bodies that look like they could easily swim 50 laps. No suspension of disbelief is required to find Noah's (or McNulty's) sexual exploits to be fully plausible. It's not being insinuated that he is irresistible to ALL women.

 

 t think we're supposed to believe that Noah's memories of his swinging single days are idealized.

 

But if we're actually supposed to believe that movie-star-gorgeous women with perfect breasts were lining up to screw this wrinkled man, that would absolutely suspend my disbelief. Of course it's possible that an attractive women would be interested in him, but the way it was presented was just too much.

 

Especially because Noah is such a dork. Even in his memories, where he often views himself as a knight in shining armor, he's still a big honking dork. I don't see him having any great "moves" when it comes to picking up women.

[Pallas]

It does seem that while the actors are all good they are each playing their parts slightly differently than what was originally imagined by the show runners.  Cole and Helen are more sympathetic.  Noah and Alison come off as more self-serving.

 

Thinking about this and stillshimpy's great post from yesterday, about the casting and more.  Perhaps Maura Tierney isn't so much portraying the character differently or more sympathetically, but the casting-against-type may have turned out unexpectedly.  There is something deeply sympathetic about her presence on screen. Neither the showrunner in her writing for the character, nor the actor in her portrayal, can entirely work against the grain of that persona.   

 

To me, anyway, Maura Tierney instantly invokes Good Friend.  She is every girl who took care of other people and still got shit done, without sacrificing her own integrity or fun.  She is the girl who looked after you at the party that got out of hand.  She is the girl who counseled her boyfriend's best friend on a couple of ways not to be a dick, while at the same time letting him know that this included not making another pass at her.  Animals swooned at the sight of her.  So did other people's parents, though maybe not her own.  Her worst fault may have been that she believed she can make sketchy people come around -- she'd done it before, with her tolerance, droll manner and light touch.  Maura Tierney is someone who looks ready to be cast in any story meant to illustrate the actor James Marsters's remarkable statement, "When a bad man loves a good woman, it doesn't make him  good -- it makes him dangerous."  

 

Most of all, she's so damn real.  She's so damn there, in all her too-too-solid-flesh humanity. Meanwhile, Ruth Wilson is doing an extraordinary job conveying Alison as a will-o-the-wisp, a creature of the sea, a vision, a figment of a male writer's imagination.  Yet it's the woman playing Helen who somehow suggests someone with her hands cupped around a darkness she is at pains to keep out of the light of day.  And is all the more compelling for it, and more real.    

[minimilah]

To me, anyway, Maura Tierney instantly invokes Good Friend.

great, great post! i completely agree with everything, both maura and ruth are brilliant actresses.

[Muffyn]

Speaking of the detective, did anyone else think that he could be on the take?  I'm referring to when he brought the snitch in with the recording from his and Noah's conversation about the 10 no 20 grand and he asked if he could keep it.  The detective said no you can't, you have to turn it over in CASH.  CASH? Really, how easy is that to pocket?

If Noah pays the mechanic cash, which he asked for, then he needs to bring that cash to the detective.  I do not see anything shady in this.  The cash would be evidence of the bribe and would, hopefully, have Noah's fingerprints on it.  

 

I figured Julianne was the nanny.

I liked the episode and think that West is very attractive and that he and Ruth Wilson have lots of chemistry. I think that Jackson's performance in Alison's version of the last scene was appallingly bad. I don't believe for a minute that he pulled a gun on Noah, Whitney, Helen and Alison. I think that Noah's version is correct.

I want to know what happened after she got on the train.

Noah's recounting of the gun incident made more sense to me too.  Also, in Alison's version, there was some odd dialog (which we can expect in a retelling of a story, so I am not criticizing the writer).  There was an awkward phrase Noah used, then Alison started her next statement with the same phrase.  It stood out to me.  (Can't re-watch right now).  

 

I have been noticing that more and more throughout the show, which is an interesting way to view how memories work.  Noah called his daughter a sociopath.  Then Helen calls Noah a sociopath.  Or did Whitney prompt that word during the conversation with her mother?  She could have since we didn't see it.  In some of the Noah and Alison comparisons there is a sense that they each attribute at times what may have been the other person's actions to themselves.  I find that part of the storytelling very interesting. 

[AmandaPanda]

Hi everyone,

 

You'll notice that I've moved several posts over to the media thread. Anything that was only about Sarah Treem's Twitter feed really belongs over there. The episode threads are intended to be specific to the happenings of each individual episode. 

 

Thanks so much and happy posting!

[Higgs]

Maura Tierney instantly invokes Good Friend.

......

Ruth Wilson is doing an extraordinary job conveying Alison as a will-o-the-wisp, a creature of the sea, a vision, a figment of a male writer's imagination.

Once upon a time I had the sufficiently good taste to fall in love with Maura Tierney, back in the day of "NewsRadio". I even watched a few episodes of "ER" to see her, which for me was an act of pure devotion. She is much more than "Good Friend"; she is Woman, Provider of Emotional Comfort. And so is Helen Butler, and that's Noah's problem. He needs to be needed (sing to me, Babs), and Helen insisted on a parent-backed lifestyle in which he wasn't needed enough.

In Ep.10, Noah soothingly comforts two women, saying, in each instance, "It's okay, it's okay", with the psychological deadlock ultimately broken by the Marxist maxim of "to each according to his need". It was primarily Alison's need, visible in her "dark", that attracted him. Death hung over her, first of her child, then of her grandmother. But suddenly, on that station platform, irony hit, and Alison didn't need any man.

So off Noah goes, spreading his Johnny's swimmingseed throughout the Boroughs of Gotham City, until, book advance in hand, he confronts the wife he has not missed, who, lo and behold, finally expresses a need for him: "I miss you. I can't do this alone." Because being needed is what he needs, he stays. Until...in the Lockhart dining room, when the non-Chekhovian gun was finally lowered, and unlike Alison on the station platform, Noah chose, his choice was the woman who needed him the most.

Wilson's Alison as "will-o-the-wisp"? Only if a "will-o-the-wisp" can make grown men cry.

Edited December 24, 2014 by Higgs

[scrb]

OK maybe raging bitch is too harsh given that she's been humiliated by infidelity but I'm referring to the "I could have had anyone," "I chose you because you're safe," "I gave you a great lifestyle," "get out of my fucking house."

 

They have just reconciled, they're suppose to be making decisions together.  Noah suggested they let it go, to spare themselves the psychic energy it would take to go through the process of pressing charges, possibly going to court, all over Whitney's objections.

 

When she said "I don't care what you want, I'm going to press charges," that struck me as "I'm in charge, it's my house, my rules, etc."  So much for partnership.

[minimilah]

When she said "I don't care what you want, I'm going to press charges," that struck me as "I'm in charge, it's my house, my rules, etc." So much for partnership.

i think their partnership was over long before alison appeared. and it was definitely ruined with the affair.

i really find helen's reactions realistic. it's so typical that she took him back and they reconciled, she seemingly got over it and forgave... but she was just so angry. i feel like she wanted to punish him so bad, to hurt him and humiliate him with words just like he did to her by having an affair. she struggled between wanting to work on their marriage and between the anger she felt at his betrayal.

it doesn't matter if they reconciled. it's still a whole lot of emotions that helen needed to deal with over time. PLUS i think they never really reconciled because helen probably felt that noah wasn't really involved or interested in fixing their marriage.

Edited December 24, 2014 by minimilah

[Boundary]

When she said "I don't care what you want, I'm going to press charges," that struck me as "I'm in charge, it's my house, my rules, etc."  So much for partnership.

 

Noah going back to Helen was a mistake in of itself, simply because he was still pining for Alison and would've cheated again if a chance presented itself. But Helen's state of mind, shown in this exchange, was exactly like what it was soon after Noah confessed first time. She wants to forgive him but she can't. Both states of mind not good for a proper reconciliation.

[Cirien]

But why are you believing anything she says about Noah in his memories of her? Like I feel the words coming out of her mouth in his memories says more about his feelings. And aren't the truth of what she said

[Bcharmer]

To be fair, Helen actually said, "I'm going to press charges. You can join me, or not."  That's slightly different than saying "I don't care what you think." Her tone was calm, not angry, and she almost half-smiled when she said it. I'm giving her a pass on this one, because she had JUST found out about it being Scotty. How many mothers wouldn't have felt the same way? I'm not sure if this wouldn't have been the exact same words she would have used, prior to Noah's affair. I think she would have said the same thing.

[Boundary]

But why are you believing anything she says about Noah in his memories of her? Like I feel the words coming out of her mouth in his memories says more about his feelings. And aren't the truth of what she said

 

 

Because Noah can't be lying all the time. I'd drive myself crazy thinking everything is a lie simply because it's a memory. There are a lot of good things about Helen in his memories too, and I accept them. I only discard them if Alison's version contradicts Noah's and even then provided her version is more credible. Otherwise, I make an allowance for memory fallibility, ego and pinch of salt as required - I won't discard everything simply because it is in Noah's head.

[Cirien]

Not to mention it was a crime. Noah may have been living out his own version of Romeo and Julie but the fact that Scotty is Alison ' s BIL shouldn't matter when it comes to whether or not charges are pressed

I don't think he's lying but he is shading the memories with his own feelings at the time. Like if he's insecure about the money situation that may come out as making Helen more of a bitch she actually is. Like I've done it myself so I can definitely see his issues clouding the matter

[Boundary]

I accept that, it's just that it's too easy to swing all the way to the other side and make Helen look angelic simply because Noah was insecure. Like I said, I have an allowance for Noah's feelings colouring his thoughts but it should also be true that she insisted on pressing charges because a whole plot line came out of it. 

[Cirien]

Well he did try to kick the shot out of Scotty . Which is why the whole thing about he wanting to drop the charges was (IMO) bizarre. Unless it about him needing to be the alpha male?

[minimilah]

But why are you believing anything she says about Noah in his memories of her? Like I feel the words coming out of her mouth in his memories says more about his feelings. And aren't the truth of what she said

i think that noah's memories of helen may be a lottle exaggerate but not lies, you know? like he might remember helen as being more snoby and bitchy than she really is. he might imagine her as being more controlling than she really is... but i think the truth is somewhere in the middle.

helen isn't a bitch but she's definitely isn't a saint.

Edited December 24, 2014 by minimilah

[JudyObscure]

I think it's better stated as a person being able to find their perfect pairing for a particular time. We all change so much over the course of time that the person who was a perfect match for someone at twenty-two can feel like a hostile agent ten years later and an enemy by the time you hit the twenty year mark. Doesn't mean they were any less of a perfect pairing for the 22 year old person.

I agree with that. I like the concept of "soul mate," as someone who really gets us, laughs at the same thing, physical attraction off the charts, etc. but I'll never believe we have only one such person in the universe or that it's the same person for all time.

One type of soul mate that is often outgrown is the controlling one. That type of person can feel safe when you're twenty and insufferable by thirty. Helen was just what Noah needed when he was in college, too shy to talk in a group and insecure about his poor background. At that time he probably liked Helen's orders about what to wear and how to act. Now he can't stand it and Helen really can't change, minutes after promising to change she's announcing jus how it's going to be regarding Scotty. So Noah is attracted to Alison's softness, her willingness to let him take control in bed and out of it. He wants to have sex in his house and she lets him, she's his. I think they're really in love and "soul mates," at least for now.

I loved Maura Tierney in "Radio News," and agree she seemed like the ultimate good friend there. She also did a fabulous job as a woman with schizophrenia in a TV movie, but I don't like anything about her in this role. Helen seems to go through her entire life ordering people around with an arrogance that I find totally unsympathetic, so the actress doesn't work for me here. I can't picture Helen being a good friend to anyone, just tossing out condescending advice and then blowing you off if you don't take it.

Could "Steve," be the detective's son?

Stillshimpy's comparison of Noah's sexcapades to a sight hound's is perfect.

I saw the two scenes with Cole and his gun as sequential. After pulling his gun to stop Noah from strangling Scotty. Scotty and Cherry go upstairs to recover and the rest of the gang ends up in the living room, preparing to leave with Whitney, when Cole comes in to do his near murder/suicide thing.

[Guest]

also, when she said "when julianne leaves" maybe she meant, when she leaves for daycare or something?

I got the impression that Julianne was their nanny, not their child. But who knows.

[panthergirl13]

I married young and changed my reluctant churchy vows from "As long as we both shall live" to "As long as we both shall love".   Because I figured it probably wouldn't last.   I was right.  :-)

I embarrassingly admit to having done the same thing at my third [failed] wedding.

[blixie]

 

Which is why the whole thing about he wanting to drop the charges was (IMO) bizarre. Unless it about him needing to be the alpha male?

Actually the opposite, I'd say it was about him being an emotional coward. Remember from Noah's perspective Allison rejected him at the train. So he really really doesn't want to see Allison again to potentially confirm that rejection anew, and letting a Scotty the SKEEZE off is just par for the course to protect Noah's feelings.

 

 

To be fair, Helen actually said, "I'm going to press charges. You can join me, or not."

 

Right, she didn't say she didn't *care*, and further I would hardly characterize that scene as a reconciliation. Reconciliation takes time and work, all that had been established between Helen and Noah was a *tenuous* and obviously temporary reunion, he destroyed the partnership he can pipe the fuck down until they've worked their way a little closer to true reconciliation. Of course that lasted what 20 minutes after seeing Allison again. He's such a douche.

 

 

I married young and changed my reluctant churchy vows from "As long as we both shall live" to "As long as we both shall love".   Because I figured it probably wouldn't last.   I was right.  :-)

 

 

I've always been fond of Ming the Merciless' vows: Do you, Ming the Merciless, Ruler of the Universe, take this Earthling Dale Arden, to be your Empress of the Hour? Of the Hour? Yes! Do you promise not to blast her into space? Uh, until such time as you grow weary of her. I DO!

Edited December 24, 2014 by blixie

[Constantinople]

OK maybe raging bitch is too harsh given that she's been humiliated by infidelity but I'm referring to the "I could have had anyone," "I chose you because you're safe," "I gave you a great lifestyle," "get out of my fucking house."

 

They have just reconciled, they're suppose to be making decisions together.  Noah suggested they let it go, to spare themselves the psychic energy it would take to go through the process of pressing charges, possibly going to court, all over Whitney's objections.

 

When she said "I don't care what you want, I'm going to press charges," that struck me as "I'm in charge, it's my house, my rules, etc."  So much for partnership.

As Bcharmer pointed out, Helen said "I'm going to press charges. You can join me, or not"

 

Moreover, Noah makes unilateral decisions all of the time

• Didn't tell Helen about Martin's fake suicide
• Didn't tell Helen about Martin's problems in school
• Didn't tell Helen about Scotty and Whitney ("didn't tell" - a pattern seems to be developing)
• Said, in essence, "my way or the high way" on how they would respond to Whitney's cyber bulling of her frenemy
• Abandoned his wife and family, after initially deciding that he'd stick it out until Whitney went away to college (I guess his 3 youngest kids don't count for shit).

Also, in Noah's POV, Helen also indicated that it was Noah who wanted a large family.

 

Partnership doesn't mean Noah always get his way.  Perhaps Noah can bend a little and follow Helen's lead for once rather than insisting, as always, that they do it his way (ad-hoc beatings of Scotty whenever Noah sees him). 

 

Because Noah can't be lying all the time.

Noah wants to be a novelist, which means he wants to be a full time, professional liar and fantasist.

[stillshimpy]

Whereas I think it's safe to assume that Noah is focusing on, and very likely exaggerating by isolating, Helen's less-than-admirable qualities when he looks back, that doesn't mean they are the gospel truth or a complete fabrication.   

 

He left his wife and four children.  Of course his memories would tend to justify that action, I think that makes sense.  I used to date a guy who, whenever he we had an argument, he would essentially repeat back to me what he'd heard me say.  "So you're threatening to leave me?"  "If you don't get your way, I can just drop dead, is that it?"  I broke up with him fairly quickly, but not before telling him that not only was that not what I said, it wasn't even in the spirit of what I was thinking.  

 

We have weird filters in place for the people with whom we are the most intimate and sometimes those filters distort.  Apparently next year we will get to see Helen's point-of-view according to an interview with Treem.  I look forward to seeing the difference, but I trust that there is one.  

 

Also, again, the way Noah views himself when dealing with Helen is going to color how he perceives his reality with her.  Some proof of that is to be had when we look at how Noah remembers Alison vs. how Alison remembers herself.  They are very different creatures.  I trust there is a similar disparity in the filters that Noah has placed on Helen and the reality that is Helen, whatever it may be. 

 

I think the standout performers of this series are Ruth Wilson and Maura Tierney.  Wilson has been tasked with  playing two versions of her character : Noah's version of her and Alison's version of Alison.  They are often very different creatures and Wilson has done really good work, I feel, in conveying those without making it a jarring experience.  Tierney has been tasked with something nigh on impossible which is to work almost entirely within Noah's self-justifying memories. 

 

That scene in the bedroom where she has to be about five different versions of Helen, all at once, would have been High Hell to play.  She has to be angry, but she also has to be vulnerable and visibly starting to crumble enough in terms of her ability to cope that Noah feels moved to do something I don't think either of them really wanted entirely, which was a half-hearted attempt at reconciliation.  

 

So she needs to be sharp and damning, emotionally vulnerable and conveying that her character is very close to simply freaking losing it, but has to do all of that while working with the Noah-filtering.  A lesser actress just would have dropped dead or into rehab as a problem-solving technique.  What a scene to have to play and it would read like a living nightmare on the page.  "Okay, in literally three breaths you have to accuse Noah, tell him you hate him, then ask him to come back home, good luck and.....ACTION!"  I mean, good friggin' lord.  After that, part the red sea, why don't you? 

 

By the way, saying that Helen shouldn't use her children as pawns in a revenge scheme by dumping them on Noah is nowhere near the same thing as justifying Noah's actions, or saying that Helen has to be the primary caretaker because Noah wants to get his Screwing Marathon On.  It's just that it is a spectacularly bad idea to try and force someone to be a caretaker to a child if they aren't willing to be one.  

 

 

 

Because Noah can't be lying all the time.

 

We actually already have a fair amount of proof that Noah distorts to justify (which is not the same thing as lying, in part because it isn't consciously done)  in how he views Alison.  Alison remembers meeting Noah on the anniversary of her son's death and being understandably a wreck*.  Noah remembers her as a relentless Sexbot, who literally shook her bottom at him and invited him into a shower with her.  Is this a likely truth? I feel it is not.  

 

Also, Noah's scene with Helen on the bed, very much mirrored Cole and Alison on the truck.  

 

* as discussed earlier in this thread, people believe they have a clearer memory of days that have some sort of import to them, so I think that if Alison remembers meeting Noah on the anniversary of her son's death, she more likely than not did meet him on that day.  If it was the anniversary of Gabriel's death a LOT of what Noah remembers about Alison from that day seems less likely to be the actual truth of the matter. 

Edited December 24, 2014 by stillshimpy

[Ellaria]

I'm giving her a pass on this one, because she had JUST found out about it being Scotty. How many mothers wouldn't have felt the same way? I'm not sure if this wouldn't have been the exact same words she would have used, prior to Noah's affair. I think she would have said the same thing.

 

 

Well he did try to kick the shot out of Scotty . Which is why the whole thing about he wanting to drop the charges was (IMO) bizarre. Unless it about him needing to be the alpha male?

 

 

Actually the opposite, I'd say it was about him being an emotional coward. Remember from Noah's perspective Allison rejected him at the train. So he really really doesn't want to see Allison again to potentially confirm that rejection anew, and letting a Scotty the SKEEZE off is just par for the course to protect Noah's feelings.

 

I was kind of shocked to find out that Noah never told Helen that he knew/suspected that Scotty was the father. I don't care what the relationship with your estranged wife is; that's information that she needed to be aware of. This is supposed to be about Whitney. Everything else - including a rational discussion on whether or not to press charges - should have started with the truth. 

 

Once again, Noah acts to protect himself. He IS an emotional coward. That's why I don't accept that he attacked Scotty at the ranch. 

[Boundary]

Noah wants to be a novelist, which means he wants to be a full time, professional liar and fantasist.

 

But you're not suggesting writers lie all the time? They are creatives, they imagine things and get paid for it, otherwise they are living their lives just like everyone else.

 

Once again, Noah acts to protect himself. He IS an emotional coward. That's why I don't accept that he attacked Scotty at the ranch. 

 

But he did attack Scotty at the Planned Parenthood. Regardless of anything he's done, the guy cares for his kids. It's possible to be worked up about Scotty whilst screwing Scotty's sister in law, sometimes things aren't black or white.

[JudyObscure]

However Helen put it, she had made up her mind to press charges, in spite of what Whitney and Noah wanted and without giving them five minutes to discuss it. I don't think it was a case of Noah not wanting to deal with it but, rather that he wanted to deal with it himself, without bringing in lawyers and judges and exposing Whitney to possible scandal. I agree that he should have told Helen that Scotty was the father and she should have kept him in the loop about everything else.

I feel like Helen and her mother are telling Noah he has lost his rights as a parent because he's the one who wants a divorce but it shouldn't work that way. From the first, Helen had a sort of default custody already because she owned the house and controls the money for their education, not to mention our family court's favoritism toward mothers over fathers. She sets firmly in the winner's circle there so the least the custodial parent can do is keep the other one informed and allow them to help make decisions. Noah's the one who had an affair, but Helen is the one who kicked him out.

It's true that we've only seen Helen through Noah's and Alison's eyes, but that's all we have to go on. I'm not going to assume that she's really a fantastic person when we haven't seen that. She may be wonderful, Oscar may work at the food pantry in his spare time, and the little girl may be the true sociopath, but if we haven't had any hints I'm not going to invent those things.

[IMCranky]

I was kind of shocked to find out that Noah never told Helen that he knew/suspected that Scotty was the father. I don't care what the relationship with your estranged wife is; that's information that she needed to be aware of. This is supposed to be about Whitney. Everything else - including a rational discussion on whether or not to press charges - should have started with the truth.

Once again, Noah acts to protect himself. He IS an emotional coward. That's why I don't accept that he attacked Scotty at the ranch.

I also was thrown a bit by the fact that Noah never told Helen about Scotty. Whatever else is going on in their marriage, Helen is right about parenting needing to be a team. I took her reaction about pressing charges to be a response to his making a non-action, pretend-it-didn't-happen to the situation by not telling her and her need to want to do something about it. Totally agree that Noah is an emotional coward, and I took his not saying what he knew about Scotty to have more to do with distancing from Alison and the Lockharts than about what it should have been - his teenage daughter's inappropriate relationship with a man almost twice her age and his wife's parental right to be informed. But I did think his attacking Scotty at the ranch rang true and fit with how we've seen him react violently a few times before - with Oscar and with Scotty. Noah is not only an emotional coward, he's an emotional teenager, with no impulse control. I thought the immature teenage lover, Romeo & Juliet scenario very apt with regards to Noah - he's a walking hormone who acts rashly with no thought to the consequences of his actions or their effects on others. Edited December 24, 2014 by IMCranky

[Constantinople]

But you're not suggesting writers lie all the time? They are creatives, they imagine things and get paid for it, otherwise they are living their lives just like everyone else.

I'm saying unless I have corroborating evidence -- Alison's so unreliable, she doesn't count -- I don't have any reason to believe anything from Noah's POV.

 

But he did attack Scotty at the Planned Parenthood. Regardless of anything he's done, the guy cares for his kids. It's possible to be worked up about Scotty whilst screwing Scotty's sister in law, sometimes things aren't black or white.

Getting angry at someone and reacting physically isn't caring for someone, otherwise Noah was "caring" for his younger son Trevor when Noah told him that Noah was going along on a run (in reality, going to fuck Alison), Trevor wanted to join, Noah got angry and then shoved Trevor.

Noah has serious anger management issues.

[SHOgirl]

But you're not suggesting writers lie all the time? They are creatives, they imagine things and get paid for it, otherwise they are living their lives just like everyone else.

But he did attack Scotty at the Planned Parenthood. Regardless of anything he's done, the guy cares for his kids. It's possible to be worked up about Scotty whilst screwing Scotty's sister in law, sometimes things aren't black or white.

Does attacking Scotty really prove that Noah cares about his kids? Perhaps my own experiences are coming into play, but I find that some men (whether fathers, brothers, pastors or boyfriends/husbands) often view the sexuality of any woman in their lives as belonging to them and being theirs to regulate and control. Whitney is practically grown, a few more months months and it wouldn't have even been a crime. In that case, I suspect Noah would have still attacked Scotty.

[Boundary]

I was actually responding to Ellaria Sand's statement that she doesn't believe Noah attacked Scotty at the ranch. So I said he did before in New York, so why not now. And yes, that reaction from Noah is a father's instinct, Cole pretty much said the same thing. Is it rational? No. Should an adult have more control of his feelings? Yes. Does it always happen? No. Noah cares his kids, Whitney included, having an affair shouldn't cloud that.

[stillshimpy]

It's true that we've only seen Helen through Noah's and Alison's eyes, but that's all we have to go on. I'm not going to assume that she's really a fantastic person when we haven't seen that. She may be wonderful, Oscar may work at the food pantry in his spare time, and the little girl may be the true sociopath, but if we haven't had any hints I'm not going to invent those things.

 

I agree, I'm not going to invent details and start telling myself a different story, but knowing that I highly doubt Noah's memories of Alison at the start of their relationship, I am willing to withhold judgment on Helen in this instance until given a view into her version of events.   

 

Knowing that there are reasons to believe that Noah selectively and perhaps incorrectly remembers certain moments doesn't move me to start inventing other details, but it does provide me with enough skepticism to wait and see.  

 

But you're not suggesting writers lie all the time? They are creatives, they imagine things and get paid for it, otherwise they are living their lives just like everyone else.

 

Writers have the gift of expression and invention, but that does not mean that they are liars by nature.  What it does mean is that they have a rich inner world that may serve to enhance their realities and perceptions. 

Edited December 24, 2014 by stillshimpy

[scrb]

I was paraphrasing when I quoted what Helen said about pressing charges.

 

"You can join me or not" is pretty much saying "I don't care what you think."

 

She said it as she was leaving the room, like she wasn't interested in anything else he had to say.

 

Yeah maybe Noah is seeing her as controlling all the time.  If that is the case, it makes sense he'd be receptive to the one moment of vulnerability she showed.

[SHOgirl]

I was actually responding to Ellaria Sand's statement that she doesn't believe Noah attacked Scotty at the ranch. So I said he did before in New York, so why not now. And yes, that reaction from Noah is a father's instinct, Cole pretty much said the same thing. Is it rational? No. Should an adult have more control of his feelings? Yes. Does it always happen? No. Noah cares his kids, Whitney included, having an affair shouldn't cloud that.

If you were responding to my post, I did not intend to offer the impression that I don't think Noah cares for his kids. I was simply stating that attacking Scotty does not necessarily prove that. Reading back, I can see how one would get that impression. Nor do I think if a person has an affair, it proves they don't care for their kids. My husband and I have an active, ahem, life (what we call the secret lives of adults) and neither of our assignations has anything to do with the great love and care we both feel for our children. In fact, when boredom set in, we both decided it was better for our marriage and family to assuage that boredom while simultaneously respecting the union and what it means to us and others. Clearly, I'm not in the "all cheaters suck and must die, there is never any excuse..." faction. Without our outside activities, our marriage would have gone the way of Noah and Helen's and the countless other marriages that don't survive infidelity a long time ago. We decided to make our needs work for us and the marriage instead of taking it all so damn personally. Haha. Of course, unlike Helen and Noah and Allison and Cole, we really dig each other.

Edited December 24, 2014 by SHOgirl

[Mayday]

What I find amusing is that although Helen may like expensive shampoo and her daughter may have some French clothes, she dresses quite casually and is generally unadorned, yet the future Alison is dressed from head to toe in expensive gear, with a sharp haircut. I'll wager that she has designer shampoo now.

As to Noah not telling Helen that Scotty was the father, I think that was as others have said, because he was a Lockhart (it's more or less the first thing he tells Max) and was, no doubt, aware that the link to the Lockharts could open many more cans of drug-dealing worms in which Alison was directly implicated. Of course, the reality was that in that moment, he was totally pre-occupied with his own needs and not his daughter's or his wife's.

[scrb]

May look casual but those clothes are probably expensive.

 

Doubtful Helen is getting her clothes at TJ Max or some similar mass-market chain.

 

Of course that's TV in general, like the huge Friends apt. in Greenwich Village which cost millions but is suppose to be the dwelling of struggling thirty somethings.

[JenE4]

What I find amusing is that although Helen may like expensive shampoo and her daughter may have some French clothes, she dresses quite casually and is generally unadorned, yet the future Alison is dressed from head to toe in expensive gear, with a sharp haircut. I'll wager that she has designer shampoo now.

She might be unadorned in Noah's memories because she's the plain, boring wife as compared to vamped up Alison. But remember the party scene at the Butler's? Noah had her in a very basic dress--cocktail length but not even snazzy cocktail style. Yet Alison had her in a full-on evening gown with jewels. I don't have any idea how any of these people actually dress--see Alison in her memories vs. Noah's. However, the future and interrogation scenes are how they actually look, so, yes, Alison gets quite the hoity-toity makeover! Did anyone notice how Noah's memory of fighting Scotty at PP and the actual recording match up--or not? I think it's hard to tell because the recording is black and white, but it looked similar--shoving Scotty up into a corner nook. But I wonder whether they changed the clothes or recorded it differently?

[sasha206]

Is there a thread where we can talk about some of the ridiculous/unrealistic pieces of this show?   Because the fake bidding war?  That whole scene was just ridiculous to me.  

 

And how is it that the waitress that worked with Allison in the summer has this gorgeous huge apartment in NYC?  How is it that Alison can just "give" Cole their house? How does she suddenly have a beautiful wardrobe and looks impeccable when they have no money?  Or is that just a part of the refined memories?  

 

I guess I'm in the minority but I can't stand the actress who plays Whitney.  Every scene she's in I want to fast forward.