S01.E09: 9

[TVForever]

Wow. They really covered a lot of ground in this episode. 

 

 

So now we have the truth of Gabriel's death and it sounds like it's both Allison and Cole's fault. I loved Cherry's speech to her. I honestly would be happy watching a season just about the Lockharts. Cole running after her was amazing. That's a hell of a gesture. Again, all this show leaves me thinking is why anyone would cheat on Cole? Helen's cool, too, though I'm not such a Maura Tierney fan as you all, but I feel with him, they really did not do such a great job showing him as a gruff, bullying guy which they made passing attempts at. Those scenes didn't ring true for me (I think Tom & Lorenzo pointed this out in their review of last week's episode too.)

 

         I was confused by the early depictions of gruff, bullying Cole as well, since the Cole I've seen since strikes me as the most sensible and sensitive character on the show. I'm actually crushin' on the drug-dealing cowboy, go figure! The way he's behaved in spite of Allison's foolishness almost made me cry one episode. I think it was when he caught up with her in Brooklyn. He now knows about the affair, and he STILL took off his jacket to put it on the ground so she could sit and not get her dress dirty. Sigh. Thinking back, I believe that was part of Noah's "point of view" story- in his mind, seeing Allison as the helpless abused wife/girlfriend of a bullying husband helps him to justify the affair.

 

        I could go for a show about the Lockharts, too. They're like the Hamptons Mafia! Cherry Lockhart as Livia Soprano! Cole Lockhart as Michael Corleone! Scotty as Sonny!  I know, I'm mixing my mafia families, but you get my drift, lol!

Edited December 16, 2014 by TVForever

[Blakeston]

(And maybe even a resentment of her child?  ("Detective, I have to go pick up my kid."  That "kid" was spat out as if it were the word "Waitress.")

We're talking about her line at the end of the first episode, right? I just rewatched that, and it didn't hear anything spiteful about the way she said "kid."

 

If there was any negativity in her voice at that point in the interrogation, I think it was a reaction to what the detective had just said. He asked, "Am I keeping you from something?", which is often a passive-aggressive way of saying, "You're not taking this seriously enough." If I were in Alison's shoes, I know I'd be tempted to say, "As a matter of fact, I have a child to worry about, so yeah, you're keeping me from something."

 

They did make Max a regular for season two, so he has to have some bigger part in the proceedings than Noah's oft-ignored sounding board.

 

Also, if Max is just there as a generic friend, it would be pretty strange for the writers to include Whitney's accusation that he's sleeping with Helen.

 

I have to wonder if Whitney was saying that out of jealousy, because she either was sleeping with Max herself, or really wanted to.

[jrlr]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I haven't gotten ANY reason to think that Max and Whitney are sleeping together.  

[Blakeston]

It's just a theory. Some of us are wondering what's really going on with Max, and getting it on with Whitney is just one possibility.

 

After Noah confronted Scotty, he said, "I'll kill you." And then, soon after that, he told Max, "Stop laughing or I'll kill you." I don't think that's a coincidence - I think it means something.

[TVForever]

I had no idea the shampoo moment would seem so shocking. I assumed she just used a ton of it on her own head. We can't see her other hand can we? I assumed she just took a lot. Selfish but a bit like being in a hotel. People use more towels and water in a hotel. Plus Ruth Wilson does do flashes of malicious glee so well. I have been impressed how well she has suppressed her edginess.

  

I don't think she used that much on her hair. But I think you missed the moment when she very purposefully turned the bottle upside down and squeezed the shampoo out into the shower. Oh she knew exactly what she was doing. Although my reading of it was that she was doing something to make Helen realize that someone had been there. Subtle, but effective. Helen would find most of her shampoo gone and, knowing that Noah doesn't use it, wonder what was up? The less subtle version of that would be the mistress

leaving behind an article of clothing or an earring, etc. for the wife to find. Oh wait.. that's exactly what happened with the bra in the drawer.

[Constantinople]

I can't blame Cherry for being angry with Alison.  That ranch belonged to Cole's family, it's not her consolation prize for a failed marriage and a lost child, but by the same token she wasn't trying to emotionally destroy Cherry there.  Cherry was trying to emotionally savage her and with the most unconscionable of weapons, particularly being wielded by a fellow parent.

 

 

I can.  Her kids are drug dealers and she supports it.  What a witch.  She's no different than that kid's mother in The Wire who wanted her son to deal drugs, even though the street wasn't in him, and the only reason the kid got out, was because his father basically threatened his mother with no more $$$, if she didn't let their son be adopted and maybe have a different life.

Cherry's kids are adults. Namond Brice was 13 or 14.

[TVForever]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I haven't gotten ANY reason to think that Max and Whitney are sleeping together.  

I'll admit, I wondered for a few seconds when Noah told Max about Whitney's pregnancy, and Max kind of looked at him, and asked, "Do you know who the father is?", or words to that effect. I guess you start to do that when you're used to looking for surprises around every corner. Nah, I don't really think that Max was sleeping with his friend's teenaged daughter. His wife, maybe?  But I do believe there's more to his story that we don't yet know, and almost nothing would surprise me.

[Constantinople]

Also, if Max is just there as a generic friend, it would be pretty strange for the writers to include Whitney's accusation that he's sleeping with Helen.

Not if the writers are trying to say that even someone as self-absorbed as Whitney can sense there is something wrong in her parents' marriage.

[Blakeston]

But why choose Max, specifically?

 

There are a whole lot of different ways for Whitney to say, "Your marriage isn't going well." I can't imagine the writers choosing to bring Max into it unless there's a reason.

 

(Of course, I also think the reason may be that Helen really is sleeping with Max.)

[Higgs]

I was confused by the early depictions of gruff, bullying Cole as well, since the Cole I've seen since strikes me as the most sensible and sensitive character on the show.

.........

I could go for a show about the Lockharts, too. They're like the Hamptons Mafia! Cherry Lockhart as Livia Soprano! Cole Lockhart as Michael Corleone! Scotty as Sonny! I know, I'm mixing my mafia families, but you get my drift, lol!

Cole is indeed the most sensible and sensitive character, as well as the most forgiving. But he's not a "better person" than the others of the four leads.

Cole has a certain nobility of spirit that gives him the insight to understand and forgive Alison's affair as a desperate act to escape her self-imposed existential guilt, and which might have even been a necessary last-chance attempt to be able to stay with Cole. That Cole did not suffer Gabriel's death as much as Alison did does not make him a less-caring parent, just as Alison's adultery, driven by a psyche with a much lower pain threshold, does not make her a more selfish or less-caring spouse.

Alison and Noah are psychologically desperate people taking desperate measures. Cole did not cheat with that hot chick he brought back from the beach because he was not suffering the inconsolable pain required to chance hurting the woman he loved. (He thought, as Noah said to Alison on the subject, he "could never convince myself it was worth it.") Helen did not cheat, despite the very high likelihood of having been asked because her marriage satisfied her modest needs ("safe", unlike her mother's). Judging people in comparison to others can be tricky in the face of differing external and internal conditions, and with the recognition that "free will" is not entirely "free". (If Jehovah had understood that, there wouldn't have been so much slaughter in the Old Testament. Oh well, live and learn, eh Lord?)

.........

TVFOREVER, if your Lockhart/Mafia comparison is used as a basis for a pilot and you are paid for it, I'll sue. http://forums.previously.tv/topic/18507-s01e07-7/?p=629845

Edited December 16, 2014 by Higgs

[jrlr]

I'll admit, I wondered for a few seconds when Noah told Max about Whitney's pregnancy, and Max kind of looked at him, and asked, "Do you know who the father is?", or words to that effect. I guess you start to do that when you're used to looking for surprises around every corner. Nah, I don't really think that Max was sleeping with his friend's teenaged daughter. His wife, maybe?  But I do believe there's more to his story that we don't yet know, and almost nothing would surprise me.

I like Max's character, and given the level of writing here, I do expect we will see more of him and learn some of his secrets.  I really don't think he is sleeping with Helen because I have a difficult time believing that Helen has ever cheated, simply because she was so devastated by Noah's affair.  But I think there is a very good chance that she will sleep with Max in the future since they are so obviously fond of each other and both will be alone (I think) next season.

[blixie]

 

Cherry's kids are adults.

 

Certainly they are but she's been lying to and manipulating them for years and actively encouraging them in the drug dealing. No one is weeping for the children here, they're just pointing out Cherry has not a moral fucking leg to stand on re: The Ranch and her family.

[TVForever]

.......

TVFOREVER, if your Lockhart/Mafia comparison is used as a basis for a pilot and you are paid for it, I'll sue. http://forums.previously.tv/topic/18507-s01e07-7/?p=629845

       

         HA! Ohmigosh, I just read your previous post! I PROMISE my comparisons were completely a coincidence! That is too funny, but like they say, great minds think alike,eh?          I promise, if anyone calls me about a Lockharts pilot, I'll send them your way,lol!!!!             

[Neurochick]

 

 

Cherry's kids are adults. Namond Brice was 13 or 14.

 

Yes, but we don't know how long the drug dealing's been going on.  And, I think Oscar said something about the Lockharts always being involved in illegal stuff; he mentioned they were bootleggers in the 20's.

 

But I should have said Cherry was closer to D'Angelo Barksdale's mother or aunt, I can't remember.

Edited December 16, 2014 by Neurochick

[Higgs]

I really don't think he [Max] is sleeping with Helen...

I fully agree. Previously, on Higgs' posts:

Helen could not possibly have already cheated with Max, not it because it's unrealistic, but because "Affair" is singular, and more importantly, if she had then Noah's guilt and Helen's pain would both be dramatically diminished, and there would go the promised "emotional effects". Whitney's suspicion that it's her mother who's unfaithful speaks to her sense of a woman's needs when she perceives her husband as a failure.

Certainly they are but she's been lying to and manipulating them for years and actively encouraging them in the drug dealing. No one is weeping for the children here, they're just pointing out Cherry has not a moral fucking leg to stand on re: The Ranch and her family.

Alison's "the whole town knew [about the drugs]" may prove Cherry's knowledge and complicity, but not necessarily her initiation or control. She had hidden her bank dealings, so it's quite possible the drug dealing was Cole's noble criminal idea to preserve the family's heritage. (He wanted to get out, but they kept dragging him back in. Hmm, where have I heard that before? Bloody hell, it's that damned TVForever again! Will no one rid me of this meddlesome poster!?) Edited December 17, 2014 by Higgs

[CleoCaesar]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I haven't gotten ANY reason to think that Max and Whitney are sleeping together.

 

The thought crossed my mind when Max was first introduced. The Solloway family was sitting around a table and Max came over. The children cried "Uncle Max!!" but Whitney had just the most disgusted expression on her face. Yes, I realize that that describes the majority of Whitney's facial expressions, but she just looked irritated by Max himself. So I wondered back then if we were in for a "man sleeps with his best friend's underage daughter" storyline.

[TexasGal]

With regard to the drug dealing, wasn't it justified by Alison (only her?  Or Cole too?) as being necessary to keep up the ranch?  If Cherry has had to continually take out mortgages to keep it afloat, where was the drug money going?

[TVForever]

Higgs! You're my TV twin! Let's quit our day jobs and be Hollywood's newest screenwriting duo!! Call me! We'll do lunch!!

[Constantinople]

But why choose Max, specifically?

So that the viewers know to whom Whitney is referring rather than just go Waaaaaaaaaaaa? (sort of like the person that Noah mentioned as a possibility for Helen during one of their conversations, possibility the one they had after Noah confessed about the affair).

Also, Whitney's close-but-no-cigar misfire can give Noah a sense of relief and panic at the same time. I think that's relevant given that it was a Noah POV scene.

 

There are a whole lot of different ways for Whitney to say, "Your marriage isn't going well."

A generic statement like that can be generically poo poohed, and doesn't give Noah the same reaction.

 

I can't imagine the writers choosing to bring Max into it unless there's a reason.

 

(Of course, I also think the reason may be that Helen really is sleeping with Max.)

For all we know, Noah will end up moving in with Max. By the end of Season 3 they'll be getting married. Back in college they had an affair (note that Noah said that Helen was his first girlfriend). Noah's reason for marrying Helen is BS, he just couldn't face his sexuality. Same reason for why Max is a skirt chasing booze hound.

There's as much evidence for this as that Max is screwing every pre-menopausal woman in the series.

[Higgs]

Higgs! You're my TV twin! Let's quit our day jobs and be Hollywood's newest screenwriting duo!! Call me! We'll do lunch!!

TVForever, if I had a day job I wouldn't be here. And I don't make calls, my people do. And they don't call people, they call "people". Do you have "people"? No? Then get some. Edited December 16, 2014 by Higgs

[TVForever]

TVForever, if I had a day job I wouldn't be here. And I don't make calls, my people do. And they don't call people, they call "people". Do you have "people"? No? Then get some.

Oh crap, I've got to get "people" now? Where do I find "people"?

[Ellaria]

I can.  Her kids are drug dealers and she supports it.  What a witch.  She's no different than that kid's mother in The Wire who wanted her son to deal drugs, even though the street wasn't in him, and the only reason the kid got out, was because his father basically threatened his mother with no more $$$, if she didn't let their son be adopted and maybe have a different life.  

Cherry's kids are adults. Namond Brice was 13 or 14.

 

A bit off -topic...but props to my fellow fans of The Wire. As close to perfect as a show can be...

[stillshimpy]

But why choose Max, specifically?

There are a whole lot of different ways for Whitney to say, "Your marriage isn't going well." I can't imagine the writers choosing to bring Max into it unless there's a reason.

 

Presumably to pay off that moment that Max kissed Helen on the lips, rather lingeringly in front of everyone.  Apparently he has a well known and open admiration for Helen as the one that got away or some such "I kid about pining for you....but when we're hooked up next season, it will be clear that I was never really kidding."  I'm assuming that is where Noah will get to feel his own sense of "I've been betrayed!" when Max basically rebuilds the family life he lost (and apparently mourns for, since he keeps warning Noah about making the same mistake) by stepping into Noah's shoes.  

 

So that's why they would name Max and so far he's been depicted as a good and loyal friend to Noah, but presumably he has his own role to play and just at a guess, he has a relationship with Helen after Noah's departure.  

 

Older guy Scotty I can see Whitney going for because he's supposed to be in his twenties.  It's actually a little rare for a teen to want to have an affair with a guy as old as her father.  

 

Maybe I'm missing something, but I haven't gotten ANY reason to think that Max and Whitney are sleeping together.

 

No, I don't think you are missing anything.  They just both exist within the story.  Max then went on to laugh his ass off over Whitney being pregnant, so I highly doubt he had anything to do with it.  It wasn't a relieved laugh, it was a "Holy shit, your entire life is a train-wreck and it all involves people with the last name Lockhart, I see.  Well done, Noah.  This is close to Greek Tragedy material."  

[Boundary]

Full on kissing Helen in front of the whole family proves that Max is the best friend. You don't do that when you're having an affair with your friend's wife, or even pining for the woman. You just don't. Feelings make people's behaviour become awkward, and the lack of awkwardness with Max and Helen's kiss was the ultimate statement that it's nothing but platonic. And Max offering Noah blackmail cash and asking Noah not to confess to Helen was Max trying to save the Solloway marriage, if he had any ulterior motives then he's got a strange way of showing it.

[Ellaria]

Full on kissing Helen in front of the whole family proves that Max is the best friend. You don't do that when you're having an affair with your friend's wife, or even pining for the woman. You just don't. Feelings make people's behaviour become awkward, and the lack of awkwardness with Max and Helen's kiss was the ultimate statement that it's nothing but platonic. And Max offering Noah blackmail cash and asking Noah not to confess to Helen was Max trying to save the Solloway marriage, if he had any ulterior motives then he's got a strange way of showing it.

 

In a show filled with unlikeable people, Max doesn't sit anywhere near the top of the list. Right now, Noah has the top spot followed closely by Ma Barker.

[stillshimpy]

Full on kissing Helen in front of the whole family proves that Max is the best friend. You don't do that when you're having an affair with your friend's wife, or even pining for the woman.

 

Oh I don't think Max and Helen are having an affair, but I also think that Max likely has real feelings about Helen that he's been joking about for years. I know three different people who -- admittedly after having spouses die -- married their dead spouse's best friend.  There were also several cases of that happening in first responders after 911.  What starts out as comforting someone just develops into more.  

 

Max really didn't want Helen to get hurt and he's supposed to be a mutual friend, called Uncle Max.   

 

I don't think he has an ulterior motives at all, but I also think that Whitney was supposed to be picking up on something real even though it is likely just attraction that would never normally be acted upon.  Noah out of the picture?  Might be acted upon.   The other thing people don't do is lingeringly kiss someone else on the lips if they aren't attracted to each other.  It's clearly a family joke that Max has the hots for Helen and there's story opportunity for that joke to stop being a joke after Noah and Helen split.  

Edited December 16, 2014 by stillshimpy

[Blakeston]

Helen could not possibly have already cheated with Max, not it because it's unrealistic, but because "Affair" is singular, and more importantly, if she had then Noah's guilt and Helen's pain would both be dramatically diminished, and there would go the promised "emotional effects". Whitney's suspicion that it's her mother who's unfaithful speaks to her sense of a woman's needs when she perceives her husband as a failure.

 

Isn't it a bit early in the series to insist that it's impossible that these characters could go in a certain direction?

 

If someone here was arguing that Max was definitely sleeping with Helen, or with Whitney, I'd be the first to point out that there are other possibilities

 

But I don't see anyone doing that. All I see is speculation that the show could go in that direction. None of us can be certain it won't.

[Higgs]

Isn't it a bit early in the series to insist that it's impossible that these characters could go in a certain direction?

If someone here was arguing that Max was definitely sleeping with Helen, or with Whitney, I'd be the first to point out that there are other possibilities

But I don't see anyone doing that. All I see is speculation that the show could go in that direction. None of us can be certain it won't.

I wrote, "Helen could not possibly have already [i.e., by the time of that first summer] cheated with Max..." I said nothing about what could happen at a future time in the story. But to understand fully my rationale for the statement, the original context is here: http://forums.previously.tv/topic/18507-s01e07-7/?view=findpost&p=629024 Edited December 16, 2014 by Higgs

[Boundary]

Oh I don't think Max and Helen are having an affair, but I also think that Max likely has real feelings about Helen that he's been joking about for years. I know three different people who -- admittedly after having spouses die -- married their dead spouse's best friend.  There were also several cases of that happening in first responders after 911.  What starts out as comforting someone just develops into more.  

 

Max really didn't want Helen to get hurt and he's supposed to be a mutual friend, called Uncle Max.   

 

I don't think he has an ulterior motives at all, but I also think that Whitney was supposed to be picking up on something real even though it is likely just attraction that would never normally be acted upon.  Noah out of the picture?  Might be acted upon.   The other thing people don't do is lingeringly kiss someone else on the lips if they aren't attracted to each other.  It's clearly a family joke that Max has the hots for Helen and there's story opportunity for that joke to stop being a joke after Noah and Helen split.  

 

I totally understand those scenarios, even Homeland started out with one of those premises and it was compelling. What I am saying is that, based on what they've shown us, Max is the best friend a guy could hope for (sans the drug thingy). $10 000 for your friend who's being blackmailed and has no chance of paying it back, without bating an eye lid? So why then go after his wife afterwards? It cheapens everything else that would've come before. I know it's a story opportunity the writers might be tempted to explore in the future, so I am not discounting it by any means. Similarly I am explaining why they might not fall into that temptation, especially if Noah is still alive.

[Higgs]

The Butler/Solloway marriage, as Helen truthfully, and Maura movingly, explain it:

http://once.unicornmedia.com/now/adaptive/m3u8/c51aadc1-5f80-4ad9-9d3d-164a8f7190fa/23012646-484c-4786-995f-049fcc26074d/b6968354-5994-48d7-846d-ce490a0004f6/content.m3u8?visitguid=b2f91153-2fc6-4a67-b6e0-ce98b3070643&UMBEPARAMproduct=mobileweb&UMBEPARAMplatform=shocom

This is completely consistent with everything that has been suggested before and speaks to the psychological integrity of the storytelling.

Edited December 17, 2014 by Higgs

[lidarose9]

I don't think Alison and Noah are in love; they barely know one another. I think they are two miserable people who recognized something painful and empty inside of each other and latched onto each other. And when they fuck, they can forget who they are for a few minutes, and they then mistake that for love. They are both now addicted to that self-effacement, and can't live without it. This is not the basis for a lasting long-term relationship, but I understand how it can happen. People are complicated. 

 

 

[Higgs]

I don't think Alison and Noah are in love; they barely know one another.

....

They are both now addicted to that self-effacement, and can't live without it.

They spent an unknown number of hours together over a period of eight weeks. How much time does a couple need to spend together to "know one another" or to consider themselves "in love"? (How well does Helen "know" Noah after 25 years?) What does being "in love" mean, exactly, or even roughly? Is being "in love" different from "loving"? Is it impossible, or very unlikely, for two people who are both "miserable" to be "in love"? Is it impossible, or very unlikely, for two adulterers to be "in love"? Which couples in literature/theater/TV/film were "in love", and which thought they were, but really weren't? To what extent might your feelings about the four characters, and actors portraying them, possibly be biasing your view on the matter? (These are not rhetorical questions and are addressed to everyone in the audience.)

As to Alison and Noah, specifically: http://forums.previously.tv/topic/19072-s01e08-8/#entry634343

...

"Addicted"!? "Can't live without it"!? The last I saw of Alison in this episode she was getting on a train without asking any man to join her. And at the latest time in the story arc that I saw Alison and Noah, they were apart and both were seemingly alive. Not only that, but Alison had a minor kid and Noah had a "MAJOR motion picture".

Edited December 17, 2014 by Higgs

[bunnyblue]

I don't normally have much sympathy for Alison but the scene in the doctor's office got to me. I actually teared up watching Alison break down; she was so raw and so emotionally beat. I've been a fan of Ruth Wilson's since "Jane Eyre" and she had me completely revited while she recounted Gabriel's drowning. Cherry can go ahead and lose her ranch and her precious boys for her vindictive beatdown of Alison. There are some things you don't use against someone, and the death of a child is at the top of that list.

 

If I were Max, I'd stop wasting my time with Noah. This is the second time Noah has done the complete opposite of what Max has advised. He told him not to tell Helen about the affair, and later that day he does. He tells him to learn from his own failed marriage and stay with Helen, and a few hours later Noah's telling Helen he wants a seperation.

 

Seeing Cole run to catch up with Alison at the train station made me swoon. The man had his bag packed and was willing to leave his family and the life he's known in order to take off with his wife and start fresh. And she just stands there?! I need him to finally say "enough" and leave her. Probably won't happen this season, of course. 

 

I don't care how much Helen's $hampoo co$t, Alison pouring it out pissed me off. Damn, woman, don't waste someone's perfectly good shampoo! And what did she break in the kitchen? I got the feeling that was not completely accidental. Just more childish behavior.

 

When Helen & Noah were talking about Whitney and trying to figure out the baby daddy, Helen mentioned a Facebook friend of Whitney's. Noah then wanted to check her Facebook but Helen said they didn't know her password. Noah had her computer right there. Would they really have needed her password? Wouldn't Whitney have her login and password saved for easy access since it is her own personal computer? The girl must check FB several times a day, I'm not buying that she'd have to enter her password for every visit. Teenagers are too lazy for that. 

Edited December 17, 2014 by bunnyblue

[Higgs]

If I were Max, I'd stop wasting my time with Noah.

...

I don't care how much Helen's $hampoo co$t, Alison pouring it out pissed me off.

"Bros before hos".

...

Alison poured out the shampoo BECAUSE it was expensive. It wasn't triumphant "taunting", of the sort that draws a fifteen yard penalty in the NFL, but a spontaneous, silent, defiant act of "class warfare", in the phrase used by FOX "News" to make the world safe for Rupert Murdoch and his descendents. It was a 30-year-old waitress spitting in the soup of a 45-year-old woman with a pearl necklace who addressed her as "sweetheart". Alison got on that train carrying all her worldly possessions that mattered in a small bag; Helen would have needed as many sherpas as it takes for a Mt. Everest expedition.

Class differences and aspirations play large roles in "The Affair", from Bruce Butler giving up his Michigan student for the expensive presents under the tall, tastefully-trimmed Tannenbaum of his rich wife, to Noah telling Alison about Helen, "She was kind of artsy, and I wanted to be beautiful, rich, and artsy, so I married her." That's the sort of thing Jay Gatsby wished he had been in a position to say about debutante Daisy, back in the day.

Edited December 17, 2014 by Higgs

[Boundary]

I don't think Alison and Noah are in love; they barely know one another. 

 

I don't think love is a function of time, if it was then marriages (all of them) would get stronger with time. But they don't - some people grow apart, others grow stronger together, many just meander along and only survive (or break) by chance. 

[myname2use4now]

With regard to the drug dealing, wasn't it justified by Alison (only her?  Or Cole too?) as being necessary to keep up the ranch?  If Cherry has had to continually take out mortgages to keep it afloat, where was the drug money going?

Great question. It was my thought as well. They're sitting on this land and haven't found one way to make it pay for itself? Even if they carved out a small portion of it and built a house to rent, they'd probably have enough to cover mortgage plus taxes. But they've had drug money coming in as well? It seems a bit odd. It's not as though they're living in the lap of luxury, either. Didn't we see Alison trying to fix the porch railing by herself? They're not very smart people, if you ask me.

[stillshimpy]

What I am saying is that, based on what they've shown us, Max is the best friend a guy could hope for (sans the drug thingy). $10 000 for your friend who's being blackmailed and has no chance of paying it back, without bating an eye lid? So why then go after his wife afterwards? It cheapens everything else that would've come before.

 

I do understand what you're saying, Boundary, I just disagree that it would cheapen anything.  It's an opportunity for story development with character growth.  

 

Both Alison and Noah are willing to emotionally maim people who have loved and trusted them, all in the name of "but we love each other, we have to be together...sorry it's ripping your hearts out...but anything else would be a lie..."   Presumably prior to bumping into Alison, Noah's primarily been a good and loyal husband and Helen has been a good and loyal wife.  Not only might Max judge Noah harshly for emotionally wounding his entire family, it could alter his feelings of loyalty towards Noah, because again he's supposed to be both of their friends.  Not just Noah's best friend.  

 

The writers might not do it or they might, but I disagree that it would cheapen anything.  If anything I think it would be a case of "Noah, meet Empathy.  Empathy, Noah."  to feel that someone he loved and trusted became an emotional opportunist in those circumstances because "but we love each other, we have to be together....sorry it's ripping your heart out...but...." 

 

As for Helen, that's actual incentive right there too whether it would be subconscious (I think it would be) or not.  Presumably Max has an ex-wife who would also twist on the Devil's Fork over "were they always into each other" and it would give The Affair a fitting echo, in my opinion. 

Edited December 17, 2014 by stillshimpy

[Higgs]

Max is currently dating a twenty-three-year-old, and is secretly hoping his wife will take him back, as dumped husbands are prone to do. He may regret not having won Helen at Williams, if indeed he coulda been a contenda, but that ship has long sailed, and its mainsail has stretch marks. There are three other possible reasons for Max to return:

1. Noah needs a lawyer to beat a murder rap.

2.Noah needs someone to confide in; every Jerry needs a George. (That one's for you, Boundary.)

3. Max bought what Scotty sold and Scotty's been murdered.

Edited December 17, 2014 by Higgs

[taragel]

Honestly, of all the disparate threads this show has introduced, the drug dealing is the one that works least IMO. The logistics don't make any sense. The ranch is worth 30 million but they don't want to sell any of it, so to pay for its upkeep, in addition to the legit business of riding lessons and ranching, they deal drugs, but then all the money they make from that just goes right back into the ranch so they're still in trouble? It's straining some plausibility here for sure.

 

And the drug-dealing may be common in small fishing towns, but I STILL find it wildly out-of-character for who these people are in this town--actually at least for who Cole is and who he wants to be. The guy who supposedly doesn't like to talk/be the center of attention yet gets up to fight for/praise small town life and its quaint charms in the town hall meeting is not the same guy who deals drugs and doesn't logically expect that to also bring a terrible, urban element to his community. I don't get the impression that Cole is stupid, so I also can't buy that he was totally ignorant on the real finances behind the ranch and just let Cherry handle that when with all other matters the whole family deferred to him. (Now I can believe Scotty was dealing drugs and maybe Caleb, but I can't see Cole in favor of it and probably not Hal either given his actions. Cherry...I'm a little more on the fence about. I kind of like the idea of her as a quiet wheeler dealer.)

I don't know if Cole's a better person (that's pretty subjective isn't it? for some people, being actually sensitive instead of selfish would be enough to deem him better), but I sure do like him the best of this quartet. He's by far the most tender/caring to his spouse among this foursome and since we don't see much of the rest of his life....that's pretty endearing (as are the small details like chivalry laying the newspaper down so Alison won't dirty her dress to the bigger gestures of leaving with her and turning his back on the ranch/his family which he clearly loves and values very much). Not one of the other three people have made any sacrifices or concessions to their partners at any step of this really. So, it's hard not to think of him as better or more favorably, IMO anyway.

 

Now if they'd shown us scenes of him drug-dealing maybe that'd be different. But I don't know.  I think that's why the scenes where he was uncaring/short with Alison didn't work for me and seemed out of character. They were too sparing and infrequent compared to all the sensitivity and caring towards Alison. (Also, I do wonder again if JJ was the right actor for this part...IF they wanted someone we felt very unsure about from moment to moment. I find him to have a huge amount of charisma/personal charm and likability. Someone who had a darker/less straightforward way about him might have been a better choice. I suppose some will argue, he's an actor and should be able to pull that off, but if the writing isn't strong enough to create that image (and it isn't), sometimes you have to let the casting do some of the heavy lifting for you.

Edited December 17, 2014 by taragel

[Boundary]

I agree, the Scotty murder and the drug dealing (maybe they're related) give me a headache mainly because we have no useful information whatsoever. There isn't enough information even to support conjecture. But I'm able to fanwank it in the sense that we only have Alison's POV to give us access and she isn't much help. Moving along that train of thought, it's possible there's some other side of Cole we haven't seen (and Joshua can bring it when required I'm sure). If Noah interacts long enough with Cole I bet we'll start to see Cole's sides that might surprise. I don't doubt that he loves Alison but he's hardly that nice when she's not around, is he?

[stillshimpy]

Honestly, of all the disparate threads this show has introduced, the drug dealing is the one that works least IMO. The logistics don't make any sense. The ranch is worth 30 million but they don't want to sell any of it, so to pay for its upkeep, in addition to the legit business of riding lessons and ranching, they deal drugs, but then all the money they make from that just goes right back into the ranch so they're still in trouble? It's straining some plausibility here for sure.

 

Plus, the ranch is still in hock up to its eyeballs, to such an extreme extent that the sale of a 30 million dollar property is only going to yield a couple of million? 

 

How does that even make any sense?  They've owned that land for generations, so it should have been paid off, but somehow their operating costs are so high that they are tens of millions of dollars in debt....while dealing drugs to pay for the ranch.  I get that Cherry was borrowing against equity, but what are they tiling the roof with to end up needing millions for operating costs?  Stolen kidneys from the black market organ trade? 

 

Boy, I thought dealing drugs was as odd a plot element as could be, but I was wrong.  Apparently being really, really, really bad at dealing drugs is the oddest one they could come up with for the story. 

 

I think it exists within the story to help show how self-destructive Alison can be.  How even someone like Cole might compromise every ethical principle he has for something he loves and presumably to add yet another layer to the "Who killed Scotty?" snoozefest of a mystery.  

 

Instead it's just convinced me that these people are indescribably and unbelievably bad with money.  Pick one or the other.  Cherry is in so much debt that the ranch won't yield anything upon sale.  Fine, go with that!  They are dealing drugs to support to ranch! Okay, then go with that! 

 

No, it's both.  So they are terrible at running the ranch and even worse at running drugs.  Kay-o.  

Edited December 17, 2014 by stillshimpy

[jrlr]

Boy, I thought dealing drugs was as odd a plot element as could be, but I was wrong.  Apparently being really, really, really bad at dealing drugs is the oddest one they could come up with for the story. 

 

I think it exists within the story to help show how self-destructive Alison can be.  How even someone like Cole might compromise every ethical principle he has for something he loves and presumably to add yet another layer to the "Who killed Scotty?" snoozefest of a mystery.  

 

 

It did add yet another element to show how self-destructive Alison is, but honestly, wouldn't at least one of the brothers - or Alison - also be a drug user?  All this coke being passed around - I'm sorry to say that my own life experience tells me that someone, if not all of them except Cherry would be users.  And it would really make sense if Scotty was using it with Whitney, since she's probably surrounded by drugs at her post private school.  But nooooo, they're just (bad at it) ranchers who are lily-white when it comes to using.  I don't buy it.  And why the hell wouldn't Alison, who clearly needs some crutches to keep going, be using?  I still think that she stole pills from the supply room at the hospital when she went to see if she could handle getting her old job back.  Someone had suggested she had just taken tissues or something, but why would you need to steal keys and sneak into a supply closet just to get kleenex?  

[izabella]

I don't care how much Helen's $hampoo co$t, Alison pouring it out pissed me off. Damn, woman, don't waste someone's perfectly good shampoo! And what did she break in the kitchen? I got the feeling that was not completely accidental. Just more childish behavior.

 

I believe it was a vinegar and oil set.  Two nesting bottles, one on top of the other.  When Allison turned it over (to look for a price tag???), the top bottle fell and broke. I think that was an accident, albeit a dumb one, but the shampoo pouring was definitely a deliberate "fuck you" to Helen.

[neonlite]

 

But nooooo, they're just (bad at it) ranchers who are lily-white when it comes to using.  I don't buy it.

We don't know that no one is using, only that it's not part of Allison's recollections-either because she doesn't know or because she choses to leave it out. I agree Scotty and Whitney are likely candidates.

[TVForever]

Tragedy of her child's death aside, Allison is just incredibly selfish and immature. In fact, she and Noah share that prize. Everything she did in the Solloway house was just ridiculous-- having sex in Helen and Noah's bed, using their shower (let alone the foolishness with the shampoo), "losing" her clothes, all that stuff in the kitchen. She just had no business being there in the first place. Lust has turned these two into destructive heat-seeking missiles.

[JudyObscure]

My shampoo costs $1.29 at Kroger. It works perfectly as a surfactant to loosen dirt and then rinse off cleanly, without residue. It says a lot to me about Helen, much more than the kid's private schools, that she is ready and willing to live  beyond her husband's income just for personal frills that she is then unwilling to let him borrow because he doesn't have as much hair.   Yes it is "her,"  house in Helen's mind and she is furious that Noah isn't playing his part as the sensitive, safe, pet husband.

 

I'm not ready to send Cherry to Hell.  Purgatory maybe.  I agree that the worst thing you can do to a mother who has lost her child is make her feel even more guilty, but the worst thing you can do to a grandmother is refuse to take her advice, resulting in the death of her grandchild.  It's to Cherry's credit that she managed to keep that on simmer all these years and didn't let it boil over until Allison was adding fuel to the flame by cheating on her son.  Allison was nuts to confront Cherry about the ranch's financial mess, instead of just telling Cole.

 

I think sleeping in Noah and Helen's house and wanting to try new sexual tricks are the first hints that the affair's initial fever is cooling down.  Six months ago they could have orgasms over a little fondling on the beach, now they need high risk  situations and adventurous positions. 

[Bcharmer]

Someone had suggested she had just taken tissues or something, but why would you need to steal keys and sneak into a supply closet just to get kleenex?  

 

I thought it was bandages. The scene right after that, she was cutting herself (our first introduction to that problem of hers). If it had been pills, we would have seen her taking (swallowing) them, or else there would have been no point to the hospital scene.

Edited December 17, 2014 by Bcharmer

[JenE4]

Not keeping the ranch afloat works for me, I haven't had much luck googling approximate taxes on a $30,000,000 property in Montauck would be, but let's say it's 2% of the home's value as a conservative estimate. That would be $600,000 a year in taxes! You're not going to earn that giving horseback riding lessons--or even dealing drugs!

[blixie]

 

Honestly, of all the disparate threads this show has introduced, the drug dealing is the one that works least IMO. The logistics don't make any sense. The ranch is worth 30 million but they don't want to sell any of it, so to pay for its upkeep, in addition to the legit business of riding lessons and ranching, they deal drugs, but then all the money they make from that just goes right back into the ranch so they're still in trouble? It's straining some plausibility here for sure.

 

Yeah,I don't disagree that it strains plausibility (which is why they gave Cole that line about how it's *impossible* because they were like YEAH WE KNOW WORK WITH US), but I think the idea was that whatever costs of the ranch were, Cherry re-financed, so many times she didn't really own it anymore, so the ranch is worth 30 million, but she still owes 20. The drugs were helping to pay the bills, but the bills were artificially low because of refinancing, but they looked like they had a pretty small seasonal clientel, I can believe they made the just enough money to cover the taxes on the land, but maybe not enough for the operating costs and general maintenance of the ranch.

 

Cherry did say something about a business loan, but The Ranch business and the land should be two different things? Man what I don't understand about real estate.  It definitely seems like they should have owned the land out right at some point in "generations" but maybe it was collateral on loans to finance the "business". I give up. 

[gingerella]

Boy, I thought dealing drugs was as odd a plot element as could be, but I was wrong.  Apparently being really, really, really bad at dealing drugs is the oddest one they could come up with for the story.

The Affair, meet Weeds, another story about a really destructive and really, really bad drug dealer. 

 

This whole "I have the desperate sadz now" epiphany that Alison had last week over realizing that the ranch aint worth squat is just stupid  to me because she is living in a house she inherited from her grandparents, yes?  And said house sits on a sand dune bluff on the ocean. In Montauk. That house alone is worth a fucking fortune. So just sell your own damn house and move it along, honey. But no, the story obsesses over the ranch suddenly being worth nada and there is no spare nickel to be had anywhere. This makes no sense as Alison and Cole ramble around in their own oceanfront property.

 

I was originally drawn into this story I think because of the magnetic pull of the lovers' scenes, but now they're coming off as more and more contrived and less and less about finding an unexpected and deep love. Maybe that's intentional. Maybe that's what sudden affairs are like. Maybe you feel this magnetic pull and you're willing to risk it all only to find out that after the glow wears off you're looking at someone you don't know and thinking, "what the fuck did I just do?!"  If that's true then kudos to the writers. But at least clean up some of this ridiculous fluff in the story that doesn't make sense.  Like, Alison not realizing that she can sell her own house and start over with a pile of freshly minted Benjamin's. Like either making the ranch worth something or not worth something. Like having them actually making money selling drugs. Like making Alison steal shit from the hospital that she can't get at her local CVS drugstore (how fucking challenging is it to get bandages at a pharmacy that you need to steal them illicitly from a hospital?!)  You know, just small discrepancies like that annoy the hell out of me. It's lazy writing and lazy set decoration and lazy story telling on a basic level. Just make some damn sense here and there, is that too much to ask for, show?