Mcolleague December 10, 2014 Share December 10, 2014 I'm sure I would have liked this episode better if it was not the mid-season finale, and if the promos did not bait so much about this being a MoC and mytharc heavy episode. This was a MOTW at best, but... with no monsters or yano, anything supernatural? Have the writers given up on the mythology completely, is Supernatural some kind of a family drama now? There was ten seconds of Dean on his killing spree and that was it for the mytharc. I know they said the storylines this season were going to be personal, and I generally LIKE character/relationship stuff, but this was ridiculously terrible pacing and quite a disappointment. I'm glad Castiel actually has a watchable storyline for once, and I'm glad we got Claire's POV on Cas/angel possessions in general - I maintain that there is not a single case of legitimate informed consent with angel possessions on this show, and while I don't expect them to explicitly admit this, I'm glad we got to at least see the consequences to their taking human hosts (intended or otherwise). But why is the mid-season finale episode a character based, Cas-centric episode that did nothing to advance the mytharc, and gave no new information whatsoever? This was so extremely anticlimatic. I'm too annoyed to even really analyze the character elements in this story, which I might have liked if it was placed somewhere else in the season. Not sure what to think about Dabb as a writer after watching this. I thought Bloodlines was a one time fluke, but who knows. Ugh. 1 Link to comment
Pete Martell December 10, 2014 Share December 10, 2014 (edited) I felt like they did a decent job of peppering the myth arc (Dean's mark) throughout the episode, as I think they have throughout the season, but I do think the promos were misleading. One of the problems is the promos are usually bad. This time they were actually good... Not sure what to think about Dabb as a writer after watching this. I thought Bloodlines was a one time fluke, but who knows. Ugh. I'd call Dabb uneven. I guess most of them are, but he is in particular. He and Loflin wrote several of my least favorite episodes of all time. He wrote "Clip Show," where Cas stalked and killed a waitress. I can't forgive that. Yet he also wrote some good episodes the past few seasons, like "Road Trip" (the one where they get Gadreel out of Sam). He also wrote "Reichenbach," probably the strongest myth arc episode this season for me. I thought overall this one was OK too, aside from Crowley and Rowena belonging to another show. Speaking of them, I hope we see more of that demon they left locked up. I liked the actress. Maybe she can get out and team up with the Winchesters or Cas. Edited December 10, 2014 by Pete Martell Link to comment
SueB December 10, 2014 Share December 10, 2014 ITA the promo monkeys oversold this but I also think it was a turning point episode. Dean can't shrug this one off. He killed 5 guys in an excess of violence in 60 seconds. 1) it's NOT what he wanted (he stated that) and 2) it's more than just 'excellent Hunter skills'. And really, it's not so much that Dean was actually saying 'there's no problem', it's that he thought he was still driving the bus 100%. He clearly FELT the Mark and was wrestling with it before the final scene but then the Mark did the driving for 60 seconds and boom, he's kneeling in blood. Pete Marshall, I think you're right about them connecting Dean and Claire's experience. Dean said there was more than just beer in his drink. Dean was in over his head. And honestly, if John Winchester showed up sober and pissed, I'm thinking he looked like a lot more trouble than the guys in the club were ready to handle. I can see folks scrambling to get out of his way. All the Winchester men have demonstrated the ability to look like they can kill you in a heartbeat. 3 Link to comment
Frost December 10, 2014 Share December 10, 2014 I think they were trying for some parallels, with the "I hate you" and with Dean and Claire being saved from rape (I'm a little thrown at how fine they were with putting Dean in that type of position, as generally male TV characters aren't put in that type of role), but I can headcanon it into fitting Dean. Dean likely did lash out a few times when he was a teenager, testing his boundaries, especially since most of the time John wasn't even around. I also have a feeling his version (telling John he hated him) was probably oversold and he was telling it from a place of guilt/blaming himself. I was a little taken aback by the drugging implications too. It sounds like Dean was roofied. A teenaged Dean falling down drunk would have worked for the story so I'm not sure why they took it that direction. I'm kind of glad they did, just from a PSA perspective. Unfortunately boys can be subject to sexual predators too. 2 Link to comment
Morrigan2575 December 10, 2014 Share December 10, 2014 The promo was very misleading but I rather enjoyed the episode. I like that the ending made sense given all the times I questioned WTF is going on with Dean? The first odd moment was the 3 Stooges scene, second was the Burger scene with Castiel and the final was Dean walking out of the convenience store stuffing his face. Every scene had me going, yeah Dean likes to eat but this seems OTT. So the final scene with Dean just losing it clicked everything into place. Dean was following Frank's advice, Fake It. I loved the bar scene where Dean/Sam were telling the story about John, I'm not sure what Jared/Jensen objected to because it reminded me of the fact that even though these guys have gone through a ton of crap and had one of the worst childhoods they were still kids/family. The ending was really good, and the boys really sold it. Dean is just plain lost and is going down a road he can't fight or figure out how to turn away. Sam has also suspected Dean wasn't OK but wanted to believe so badly that Dean was Dean...so he gave in to denial, until last night. This was a good MSF, not great in that I expected a lot of action and humor and this was slower and more about building the story. Link to comment
Primetimer December 10, 2014 Share December 10, 2014 Castiel is kicking ass on Supernatural this week, but then Dean has to get all show-offy. Read the story Link to comment
DittyDotDot December 10, 2014 Share December 10, 2014 (edited) Pete Martell, on 10 Dec 2014 - 01:31 AM, said:Pete Martell, on 10 Dec 2014 - 01:31 AM, said:Pete Martell, on 10 Dec 2014 - 01:31 AM, said:I'd love to know what Jensen and Jared felt about the scene and if they made any changes. It didn't quite work, but some did. I think I recently watched the vid for this, but I may have the wrong one in mind. If I recall correctly the question was about what some of the hardest scenes to film were. Jared said Heart and Croatoan was especially hard for him emotionally because he really went there and lost control of himself a bit and Bob Singer had to suggest he take a moment and they do it again. Jensen talked some about the scene where Dean tells Sam he tortured in Hell and said he had to go take a walk between takes because he got so worked up. Somewhere in there Jared said they had a scene like this recently--as kimrey said above--but I got the impression the scene was difficult because they had to get themselves there emotionally rather than them not actually liking the scene or feeling like they needed to rewrite it. Sometimes the con vids all mash together because they're asked a lot of the same questions and tell a lot of the same stories, so I could be remembering the wrong one altogether. Of course I can't actually find the video right now, but will try to find it later so you all can make up your own mind. ETA: I found it! I was totally wrong and was thinking of something entirely different, sorry about that. The question was if they every read a script and said "Dude, really? Do we really have to do this?" Jared talked about a couple actual episodes and then Jensen said for him it's been more specific scenes that just didn't feel like they were brothers, but taken out of a Nicholas Sparks movie. Here's the video, the question starts around 30 minutes in, but it's a long-winded answer and other than them mentioning this scene, they talk more generally rather than specific: Edited December 10, 2014 by DittyDotDot 2 Link to comment
cassandle December 10, 2014 Share December 10, 2014 (edited) Tbh, I wish it had been that he was trying to play it cool and like he wasn't drunk so that John would be at least slightly less pissed off, but then he threw up all over the car on the way home. Throw up all over Baby? Ooh, John would get pissed. That sounds like a much better story than CBGBs. The drugging-sounding part of that story bothered me too. Sam said he was way too young to be there so didn't these girls know he was a kid? Were they kids too? Or were they creepy adults creepily getting a teenage kid drunk? Roark reblogged a then and now photo on his Twitter (the now photo doesn't do him much justice, as I thought he looked good in the episode). Gosh, Jensen Ackles' hair makes me laugh. I had such a crush on him back then--watching Days every day freshman year of college just for him. I'm in the minority, but I didn't think the girl who played Claire was all that bad. She was thrown right into a ton of material. She made me care about her in spite of seeing this type of story more than once on more than one or two shows. Then again I liked Krissy too so maybe I just cut the young female characters a lot of slack. I was okay with Claire too. She annoyed me just like a snotty, obnoxious teenage girl would so I found the performance just fine. For some reason I was more bothered by her hair and makeup. Would a runaway really spend that much time on her eye shadow? Edited December 10, 2014 by cassandle Link to comment
SueB December 10, 2014 Share December 10, 2014 (edited) Thanks for the video! Personally I thought it was an excellent scene at the bar. But I could see how it could have been written more maudlin or sappy. Honestly, when Cas directly asked them if they loved their father, it was like a record scratch moment and I held my breath. Only Cas could ask them that question and get an answer. I thought how they answered it was perfect. I could see how it may have been a longer answer in the original script. OTOH, it's possible that the story of the time in New York was more sappy. Or they made a bigger deal out of Deans feelings regarding the creepy stuff. I can see them tightening that up too. Whatever they did, I thought it was effective in showing three thing: - your parent has to be your parent and not your friend - teens will typically not be always obedient and kind to their parent - you still love your parents (in most cases) even if it's it always great. I presume that was the message Dabb wanted and I think they delivered it. On another topic: they really left a potential shit ton of evidence plus a major crime scene. First, Cas illegally took Claire from the transition place. Dustin knows they were looking for Claire. And there are 5 bloody bodies and NO Claire. Why would there not be a nationwide manhunt? Is Cas going to have to clean up that scene? I supposed they could have Cas put Claire to sleep and dispose of the bodies. But there are 5 bodies and the trunk is not that big. Then they have two rooms full of evidence. And so many places that they were at where people might ave seen them. I just don't know how they get out of this one without causing trouble. Edited December 10, 2014 by SueB Link to comment
Bruinsfan December 10, 2014 Share December 10, 2014 I'm disappointed. I'm really upset about the preview though. I'm sorry but the actress playing Claire was terrible. The first Claire was just incredible. This one was just one note with no nuance. What happened to them being able to cast decent teen actors? It's the same actress playing Claire in both episodes, she's just 6 years older now. So Dean is attacked, and is about to be killed by a group of rapists, and someone else who was willing to sell a girl into rape, and we're supposed to feel bad for them? They were going to kill Dean, the way I see it it's defense. Smart move by Cas and Sam there, leave Dean alone in the house with that group. I suppose Dean being out of control murderous is more the issue than whether or not the dead people deserved it. But yeah, as far as the perps go I'd have been just fine with it if Cas had been the one the door closed on rather than Dean, the place lit up like a Led Zeppelin concert, and the Winchesters ran back in to find nothing left of those guys except shadows burned on the walls Hiroshima-style. Link to comment
Pete Martell December 10, 2014 Share December 10, 2014 I was a little taken aback by the drugging implications too. It sounds like Dean was roofied. A teenaged Dean falling down drunk would have worked for the story so I'm not sure why they took it that direction. I'm kind of glad they did, just from a PSA perspective. Unfortunately boys can be subject to sexual predators too. There was a scene in "The Purge" last season where Dean quickly detected roofies in the food supply or something. That led to a lot of metas and fan questions in tumblrland about how he knew such things, and of course he would know, given the world he lived in, and how attractive he is (and how gorgeous he was as a younger man). I saw some comments that he couldn't have been roofied, as he would have passed out (I don't really know), but I do think he was given something. I never really thought the show would address this part of Dean's past, the reality that a young Dean wasn't just swaggering around with bravado and snappy comebacks - that he was in as much danger from predatory humans as he was from monsters, if not moreso. One of the reasons I didn't mind Claire here is that there were so many simliarities to Dean. Not just the clumsily obvious ones, but quieter ones too. Even Claire being locked up by people who meant well (and I'm glad the show didn't demonize them, as they were generally right - Claire was in real danger once she got out). Dean never had any type of childhood. Fan response to this is often, "We already know this - get over it," or, "Sam didn't either, why is it about Dean?" but the tearing away of a home life and the trauma of a life on the road as a child soldier with no worth of his own (and being made to feel ashamed any time he ever considering having self-worth) did huge damage. I keep hoping we are going back to this so that Dean can heal and rebuild himself. His behavior in the bunker wasn't just trying to convince himself and Sam he was fine. His behavior was the way a child would act, the way he'd never been able to act as a child. Link to comment
catrox14 December 10, 2014 Share December 10, 2014 I thought Krissy and the actor that played her to be spot on and terrific. She was a snotty teenager too. But the actor brought some depth and nuance to Krissy which I found lacking with Claire 2.0. Even her angst was surfacy I thought. The girl that played Alex with okay even if I didn't really like the episode. She was equally troubled as Claire maybe even more so what with being used too. The other kids in Krissy second episode I thought were really good. So my issue is not with snotty teen age girls in particular but in specific cases of IMO poorly conceived teenage characters and/or not great acting. I could not stand teenage Dean in After-school special. I thought he was terribly miscast. The show has a fantastic track record in general with youth and teenage actors so when there is a misstep like here or teen Dean 1.0 it really stands out to me. Upon rewatch I like the episode even less. What I don't understand though about Claire characterization here is her anger with Cas. She was supposedly fine with being Cas vessel and she was not angry with her dad for taking Cas back. So on one hand I suppose they are now telling me that 12 year old Claire didn't have the capacity to consent after all which screws with Cas character in a bad way or Claire wasn't okay with to begin with so Cas did not have consent. Either way it's Cas character assassination IMO. But I suppose he was due since Carver and Co. wreaked havoc on Sam and Dean already. I find it equally hard to believe that the devoted mother to Claire, who had not left her when Jimmy left with Cas would flip that switch to off a mere four years later when her daughter needed her even more. That is destroying Mama Novak unnecessarily. That was some contrived nonsense the more I think about it. Link to comment
rue721 December 10, 2014 Share December 10, 2014 Was it the perfect story, no, but I do wish they would show John in a more positive light, because otherwise I can't buy that Dean would be all teary eyed and know how much he loves John, if he really thought he was the big meanie and abusive father. I don't have any trouble believing that Dean would get teary-eyed over John regardless of whether he was an asshole. People are messed up like that. Frankly, imo his behavior toward John makes more sense if he *didn't* entirely trust John (people aren't usually so obsessive and eager-to-please toward someone they entirely trust, I don't think). But I hate how maudlin and heavy-handed the show can get when it tries to make a point about John being a horrible father. That was also why I was happy when Crowley was generally bitching about Rowena and his lackey joined in his pity party by saying his mom used to burn him with her cigarettes. I mean come on, some perspective. Though, I think that Crowley was bitching about Rowena for the same reason that Dean will sometimes start hulking out about John. I think seeing/talking to Rowena got him upset, so he tried to channel that into being snide and cynical and convincing himself she was horrible, so that he wouldn't be a sucker for her (which then of course he was). I think that generally, when John comes up, Dean will get upset (for the obvious reason that he's grieving for him), so he'll channel that into getting angry and trying to convince himself that he doesn't need John (because John was horrible anyway, because John didn't really love them that much and abandoned them, etc etc etc), so that he won't miss him so much (which then of course he does). Thinking about that idea (of getting upset and trying to use it to harden yourself up instead of letting it make you seem/feel more vulnerable) also makes me wonder about this episode, though, and that scene at the bar. The whole episode, Dean had been trying to act like "himself" but basically was acting like a caricature of himself. And then at the bar, when Cas asked him if he loved John, he paused for such a long time, and I swear I actually thought he might say say that he didn't. What was he thinking during that pause? Because then when he finally answered, he still didn't answer with a simple "yes," he said something like, "with everything I had," and maybe even teared up a little. Was that him overplaying his answer about whether he loved John, too, because he wasn't really feeling it and was having to fake it? Like how he kept overcompensating for his lack of appetite by pretending he had a boundless appetite and going into paroxysms over the food -- when he answered Cas's question about whether he loved John, was he overcompensating for a *lack* of feeling for John (or of love in general) by acting like he had *so much* love for him? Just wondering, because being basically indifferent to John would be about the most un-Dean-like thing I can think of. (I'm a little thrown at how fine they were with putting Dean in that type of position, as generally male TV characters aren't put in that type of role) For whatever reason, they seem to do that kind of thing a lot. Off the top of my head, just in the previous episode (Hibbing 911), when the vampires had everyone tied up, that one leader vampire woman started stroking Dean's face, calling him pretty, telling him that they would use every part of him while running her hand down his body, and took off his belt as he literally said, "I'm not in the mood." I'm in the minority, but I didn't think the girl who played Claire was all that bad. She was thrown right into a ton of material. She made me care about her in spite of seeing this type of story more than once on more than one or two shows. Then again I liked Krissy too so maybe I just cut the young female characters a lot of slack. I agree that I didn't think the actress was bad, but there were SO. MANY. SCENES. of her story. It was way too much Claire all at once. Her storyline was also incredibly straightforward and boring. She gets out of juvy, is persuaded to rob a store, Cas foils her, she leaves in a huff, and Cas saves her. That's way too flimsy and predictable to work as the A-plot in any case, imo. Also, the episode was airing at an awkward time of the season for a story like this, just before hiatus and when the show was already just coming off of a Guest Star! episode in which the leads were relatively sidelined already. It wasn't the right timing for an episode with Cas and a guest star carrying the A-plot, and with relatively little supernatural/action stuff altogether. The choice to have Cas carrying the A-plot with the not-very-supernatural story about his vessel's kid and her messed up life, and pair it with Crowley carrying the B-plot with the not-very-supernatural story about his mom trying to mess with his life, seemed to me like it doomed this episode from the start. *One* of those plots needs to be supernatural, I'm sorry. I like human/relationship plots, too, but they can't all be human/relationship plots. The A- and B-plots also probably shouldn't *both* be led by supporting characters. The leads probably shouldn't *both* be shunted off to one C-plot in which *all* the supernatural stuff happens. Not that a lot of supernatural/action stuff happened there, either: far as I could tell the SL was just Dean struggling to ignore/fight the mark, Sam being dubious, and then Dean killing a bunch of people offscreen (to Sam's chagrin), so nothing new. I feel like the episodes have often been poorly plotted/structured this season. Which is weird, that's something the show has traditionally be exceptionally good at, not something it's struggled with imo. This particular episode felt like it just straight up didn't have *enough* plot. They could have squeezed all the story they had in the episode into the first two acts, let the shit *really* hit the fan in the third act, and I think the pace would have been better. Also, I think the tag at the end, where Sam flips out over Dean killing all those men, was supposed to have more impact than it actually did and be much more of an OH SHIT! cliffhanger than it actually was, which ended things on a kind of disappointing, blah note. It would have been better as an act out (imo) rather than a tag, since we didn't learn anything new from it. No shit that the MoC is affecting Dean and making him want to kill, that has been a plot point for literally almost a year. And that tag was especially disappointing imo because I guess it also took the place of the usual BM :P I'm sure I would have liked this episode better if it was not the mid-season finale, and if the promos did not bait so much about this being a MoC and mytharc heavy episode. This was a MOTW at best, but... with no monsters or yano, anything supernatural? Have the writers given up on the mythology completely, is Supernatural some kind of a family drama now? There was ten seconds of Dean on his killing spree and that was it for the mytharc. I know they said the storylines this season were going to be personal, and I generally LIKE character/relationship stuff, but this was ridiculously terrible pacing and quite a disappointment. I'm glad Castiel actually has a watchable storyline for once, and I'm glad we got Claire's POV on Cas/angel possessions in general - I maintain that there is not a single case of legitimate informed consent with angel possessions on this show, and while I don't expect them to explicitly admit this, I'm glad we got to at least see the consequences to their taking human hosts (intended or otherwise). But why is the mid-season finale episode a character based, Cas-centric episode that did nothing to advance the mytharc, and gave no new information whatsoever? This was so extremely anticlimatic. I'm too annoyed to even really analyze the character elements in this story, which I might have liked if it was placed somewhere else in the season. Totally agree with everything you wrote. The consent thing with the angels is kind of weird because they've beaten the topic into the ground like it's really important, and in general it seems like consent/free will/etc is supposed to be a really important theme of the show but..Idk. I guess it's good that Jimmy's gone but it kind of makes the story more boring, right? It's so convenient and makes things much simpler. Just like it was kind of good that Adam went into the pit instead of Dean after all, but it kind of was a cop out, too, right? I feel like the show makes this huge deal about angels and consenting to be possessed and all that, but then it pulls its punches and doesn't really go anywhere or say anything. Link to comment
Pete Martell December 10, 2014 Share December 10, 2014 Upon rewatch I like the episode even less. What I don't understand though about Claire characterization here is her anger with Cas. She was supposedly fine with being Cas vessel and she was not angry with her dad for taking Cas back. So on one hand I suppose they are now telling me that 12 year old Claire didn't have the capacity to consent after all which screws with Cas character in a bad way or Claire wasn't okay with to begin with so Cas did not have consent. Either way it's Cas character assassination IMO. But I suppose he was due since Carver and Co. wreaked havoc on Sam and Dean already. I find it equally hard to believe that the devoted mother to Claire, who had not left her when Jimmy left with Cas would flip that switch to off a mere four years later when her daughter needed her even more. That is destroying Mama Novak unnecessarily. That was some contrived nonsense the more I think about it. I don't see the character assassination. Claire gave consent because she'd just seen her mother stab her father and was watching her father bleed to death. Once the dust settled, her father was gone again, her last memory of him being a dying, broken man. She had just been possessed. Her mother had been possessed. And she continued to face huge upheaval from that day forward. When she finally sees Cas again, still wearing her father's skin, I'm not surprised that she's angry and hurt. What Cas did to get Jimmy to agree to be a vessel that first time was shady and it's something she has been haunted by ever since. We barely ever saw Jimmy's wife, so I can't say she was ruined as a character. I guess we'll see if she comes back. 1 Link to comment
Pete Martell December 10, 2014 Share December 10, 2014 I feel like the episodes have often been poorly plotted/structured this season. Which is weird, that's something the show has traditionally be exceptionally good at, not something it's struggled with imo. This particular episode felt like it just straight up didn't have *enough* plot. They could have squeezed all the story they had in the episode into the first two acts, let the shit *really* hit the fan in the third act, and I think the pace would have been better. Also, I think the tag at the end, where Sam flips out over Dean killing all those men, was supposed to have more impact than it actually did and be much more of an OH SHIT! cliffhanger than it actually was, which ended things on a kind of disappointing, blah note. It would have been better as an act out (imo) rather than a tag, since we didn't learn anything new from it. No shit that the MoC is affecting Dean and making him want to kill, that has been a plot point for literally almost a year. And that tag was especially disappointing imo because I guess it also took the place of the usual BM :P I think many episodes been poorly paced and structured since season 5 at the latest, so it doesn't jump out as much for me as it may for others. I think one of the problems is the show is mostly trying to deal with psychological explorations this season, rather than material that moves from beat to beat, which means a lot of aimlessness. It didn't bother me too much here (other than the somewhat lackluster end), compared to the meandering tone of the first 3-4 episodes this season, but I do think there are a few too many psychological stories, and when they're all in the same episode, they blur together. I get why they were all in this one - they were all about absent and/or abusive parents - but I think the episode would have improved with moving some stories around (Crowley/Rowena I would have put in another episode). Link to comment
DittyDotDot December 10, 2014 Share December 10, 2014 There was a scene in "The Purge" last season where Dean quickly detected roofies in the food supply or something. That led to a lot of metas and fan questions in tumblrland about how he knew such things, and of course he would know, given the world he lived in, and how attractive he is (and how gorgeous he was as a younger man). It's been strongly implied since the beginning of the show, IMO, that Dean's a dabbler in many different forms of substances--not just alcohol. Link to comment
rue721 December 10, 2014 Share December 10, 2014 (edited) Throw up all over Baby? Ooh, John would get pissed. That sounds like a much better story than CBGBs. You know what I keep thinking would be the worst part? OK, say that Dean went to CBGB and got messed with and plastered, John tracked him down and yanked him back into the car by the collar, and even though Dean tried to play it cool, he ended up throwing up everywhere on the way home. Then imagine him having to sit there looking at the vomit all over the dashboard and his clothes and the carpet even, and trying to only get air through the open window because the inside of the car would be so disgusting at that point. You know that John would pull into a Rite Aid parking lot and go in to buy upholstery cleaner, and make Dean at least sort of clean out the car right there before getting back to the room. Because you can't let vomit just sit overnight like that. Imagine Dean, still drunk off his ass, covered in vomit, cleaning out Baby's upholstery at 2am in a Rite Aid parking lot. And I figure that John would be leaning against the car to watch, and being an ass about it, too. I can just see him, having a cigarette, eating a candy bar, making cracks about how foolish Dean looks and how bad he smells. And then he'd have to make Dean put an old towel that's kept in the trunk for emergencies down over the passenger's seat before he's allowed to sit his crusty self back in the car and they can finally go home. BUT! then the next day John would have to surprise the boys by taking them to iHop or Denny's for breakfast, because you know, that's the best thing to do for a hangover. Edited December 10, 2014 by rue721 1 Link to comment
catrox14 December 10, 2014 Share December 10, 2014 I think it's been strongly implied and outright shown throughout the show that Dean has and continues to be sexual molested/sexaully assaulted by men and women both demon and human and that he has been used as bait via his sexual appeal both voluntarily and involuntarily so him recognizing a ruffie and being ruffied strikes me as being realistic in his life. I found it nearly impossible to believe that Dean would voluntarily use a ruffie. No way do I believe he would give up that much control. I could see Dean smoking weed but not much else. Link to comment
rue721 December 10, 2014 Share December 10, 2014 (edited) That seems a little heavy. I think that the point was to make the women in Dean's story sound predatory so that it was a stronger parallel to Claire's situation. The show isn't shy about using rape as a threat generally, so I wasn't surprised by it. The entire story is about John being Dean's white knight, to encourage Cas into being Claire's. (ETA: this is making me think of John as a knight errant and Baby as his steed. If Cas becomes/is a knight errant, too, his car even has hydraulics, so it'll sort of be able to rear back!). Or, I guess CBGB and the house where Claire was could also be versions of Pinocchio's Pleasure Island. For a more PG in the interpretation :) ETA II: catrox14, I saw that you quoted this post, but there must be some sort of glitch, because all that's on your comment is the quoted text (none of what you actually wrote came through). Figured I'd leave a note here, in case your comment gets deleted before you get back to the thread and you wonder what happened. I'm curious what you wrote and still want to read it! Edited December 10, 2014 by rue721 Link to comment
catrox14 December 10, 2014 Share December 10, 2014 (edited) That seems a little heavy. I think that the point was to make the women in Dean's story sound predatory so that it was a stronger parallel to Claire's situation. The show isn't shy about using rape as a threat generally, so I wasn't surprised by it. The entire story is about John being Dean's white knight, to encourage Cas into being Claire's. (ETA: this is making me think of John as a knight errant and Baby as his steed. If Cas becomes/is a knight errant, too, his car even has hydraulics, so it'll even sort of be able to rear back). Or, I guess CBGB and the house where Claire was could also be a version of Pinocchio's Pleasure Island. For a more PG in the interpretation :) It is quite heavy and very dark. IlBut once you take one of the lead characters and actually kill him off and resurrect him as a murderous demon, then dark it should be. And frankly, as much as I deplore it, for character reasons, if the point to demon Dean is to help heal him of his self loathing as many have speculated, calling him a born killer surely is a not advancing that premise unless they plan to take him even further into darkness and then bring him back out. But they walk a fine line here because if you take Dean or Sam too dark you lose the show and you end up with vampire diaries where no one is good and I hate that show. If you make demon!Dean into a hero without him sacrificing himself then what are you saying about demons like Crowley is not that bad? Are you saying that your big damn hero is not so much? But aside from that returning Dean to nothing more than a slave to the Mark is far less interesting than having Dean be a powerful demon. I mean seriously why did they bother to make him a demon at all if it wasn't going to stick for more than 5 freaking minutes? Or have him do Something Important with it? Edited December 10, 2014 by catrox14 1 Link to comment
Demented Daisy December 10, 2014 Share December 10, 2014 If they're going to go the "oh noes, Dean is killing humans!" route, I wish they'd go ahead and make it genuinely, unambiguously dark. Like, kill some hapless librarians or whatever. But killing a bunch of imminent rapists and a guy who sold a teen girl? And trying to make it all "tell me you had to do this!!!"? Eh. The dudes attacked Dean on top of their aforementioned crimes. I feel like the show is pulling its punches. Those men totally deserved to be killed so he didn't do anything wrong in my book. I agree having Dean kill a bunch of rapists and reprobates who were going to kill him doesn't rank high enough on the "OMG!" scale for all of the hand wringing that will ensue. I don't understand. Dean (or, perhaps more accurately, the Mark) killed a room full of humans. They weren't innocent, but that's immaterial, IMO. Original Recipe Dean would have kicked their asses and left them tied up for the cops. (The Benders, human Gordon, etc.) MoC Dean straight up slaughtered them. And this is okay? 3 Link to comment
Iguana December 10, 2014 Share December 10, 2014 I didn't post about this ep last night, because I really didn't know what to think about it. I had trouble wrapping my head around two minor but very take-me-out-of-the-episode moments. The first was Claire's mother dumping her at the grandmothers and never coming back, even after the grandmother died. For me, it just didn't make sense for a previously caring mother to just abandon her child like that, and smelled way too much of plot fairy dust. Maybe if they'd set it up that the mother couldn't deal with the demon/angel possession, losing her husband, and finding out that monsters are real and the apocalypse is on its way and she went crazy and got committed or something in continuity like that, then I'd have less of a problem with it. For some reason, my hand waving skills failed me here. The second moment has been brought up by a lot of you already: the CBGB story. Given how much I loved the actual scene of Dean, Sam and Cas having drinks in the bar and doing the "remember when" bit, I was willing to buy into the story at first, even though it really didn't ring true to me. That is, until Dean said he told John that he hated him. Then, I was like nope, cue the record scratch and screeching brakes, that did not happen. Nothing in previous episodes has given me any reason to believe Dean would say that to John, not even drunk and roofied. I can believe he may have thought it, as teens do, but it bugged me so much that I spent the rest of this episode irritated and distracted. So I rewatched the ep, or at least most of it, and realized something the second time. This is clearly a story that Dean has told Sam a hundred times. Sam is telling parts of it, smiling about what happened, even though he wasn't there for any of it. I am willing to believe that not only is it the kind of story that becomes embellished, to say the least, over the years, but also that drunk Dean would have been fuzzy on the details, even at that time. I can easily see an embarrassed and sheepish teen Dean putting in the "I hate you, Dad" when telling Sam what happened, as bravado and for cool older brother points. So, with that fan wank firmly in place, I was able to move past it. Ultimately, I was okay with the Claire story, it wasn't bad or great, just okay. I did love the ending, with Dean going all Cain on the rapists, but didn't care much for the plot contrivance that was used to get Dean in the house alone with them. I have an issue with Sam just getting into the car and not backing up Dean until they were both out of the house. But, hand wave..... I agree with the posters who said that we (and Sam) aren't supposed to be bothered by who was killed, as much as how/why Dean did it. It seems the Mark of Cain is tired of being ignored, and wants to have some fun. Link to comment
Aeryn13 December 10, 2014 Share December 10, 2014 Original Recipe Dean would have kicked their asses and left them tied up for the cops. (The Benders, human Gordon, etc.) MoC Dean straight up slaughtered them. And this is okay? For me this distinction makes it "okay". In the sense that it isn`t character destruction. Because it wasn`t Original Recipe Dean doing it, because he wouldn`t do that. A supernatural influence was necessary to push him that far. That means the act itself isn`t completely his fault. I mean, Cain couldn`t control the bloodlust either, not before a few millenia passed by so I`m not gonna hold Dean to impossible standards here either and blame him for ultimately being unable to control it. At least he is still able to control it enough that he doesn`t go slaughtering random people everywhere. Now does it completely absolve him of responsibility? Nope. Because he took on the Mark blind. Just like Castiel took on the Purgatory souls blind and then the Leviathans basically took him over and bam, field of dead angels. It wasn`t Castiel and only Castiel doing that either. And I didn`t blame him for not being able to control the voices in his head. Sam slurped down the blood and just went "lalala, serves a good purpose, side effects, shmide effects" and he never seemed to care much that it brought out the arrogance 10fold. What we have here is IMO the difference between cold-blooded murder - which would be harder to come back from for a character - vs. killing under genuine temporary insanity. Something that bugged me actually more were Cas and Sam`s reactions to the scene. First they sit around in the car, kinda like the family in Home Alone when they are trying to figure out if they forgot something and the audience yells "you forgot Kevin, lady, you know, your kid?" Then they race back in and Cas is actually bringing Claire. And while Dean is sitting their clearly shell-shocked, Cas looks on in abject horror as if he had never personally slaughtered a field of angels himself. If that look was supposed to convey horror because it dawned on him that he would have to make good on what Dean asked him to do, I consider it an acting fail because it just looked judgmental. And Sam, the only and first thing out of Sam`s mouth is "OMG, justify yourself to me right this instant". There should have been a mix of emotions, with worry and horror FOR Dean at least as much, if not moreso than AT Dean. The reaction and dialogue delivery boiling down to "deny your evident monster-dom" was NOT a suitable character reaction IMO. Going by their reactions, I got the feeling that had they had the Blade ready, both would have knifed Dean on the spot. Which would have been easy in the bzzzzzzz-catatonia state he was. If the situations were reversed IMO Dean would have conveyed worry FOR the person, be it Sam and also to a degree Cas. But somehow, it once again doesn`t work with the roles flipped. Just like when Dean was the sidekick he spent endless hours worrying and angsting about the person with the mytharc problem and last year with the first MOC Sam and Cas had a one-minute conversation that basically resulted in "well, good talk". Are the writers simply incapable of actually flipping the roles or are these supposed to be valid character reactions? As in are those characters incapable to pull the Dean-like support role? And acting-wise, equally, can`t they do what Jensen played for the last 9 years or what? Because on his end, I think he does the flipped role nicely. He plays "something else" just like the others had before him. 2 Link to comment
rue721 December 10, 2014 Share December 10, 2014 And frankly, as much as I deplore it, for character reasons, if the point to demon Dean is to help heal him of his self loathing as many have speculated, calling him a born killer surely is a not advancing that premise unless they plan to take him even further into darkness and then bring him back out. Becoming a demon doesn't seem likely to heal anything! What's the theory you're referring to? I haven't heard it. I think that previously, the show was exploring determinism by talking about God/the angels/fate/etc (v. free will). But now imo it's exploring determinism as in, how a person's own thoughts/fears/cares create his reality. Like how, in this episode, Dean kept having those flashbacks (?) in which he saw himself sitting in the middle of a massacre, and he kept overcompensating to try and keep that hidden and to drive it out of his own mind imo, but by the end of the episode, he'd recreated that exact massacre in the real world, for everyone to see. He'd made his (worst) thoughts flesh, despite himself. The show has played with that kind of thing a lot imo. The idea of being so preoccupied with a fear that you (re)create those horrible fear or even become that fear yourself. Or how you'll continually recreate your own worst nightmares, because in your own head, you're always trapped in them anyway. That's the theme that I was going on about a while back w/r/t Jeffrey and Sam in Repo Man, and Dean and his own childhood in Two and a Half Men (though imo the whole of the Hellucifer and Lisa & Ben arcs are basically about that). That's the story of John's whole life, too, imo. Hey! Maybe it's time for another MotW about a tulpa :P You know how Dean's been playing for a long time with "being" John? I mean basically through the entire run of the show. But every version of John he'd create, he'd sort of overcompensate and simplify the "character" so that he was just a shadow or a caricature of the real man, he wasn't quite able to breathe life into any of those "versions" of John. Until he kind of scared himself when he actually became too much like John (despite himself) when he was staying with Lisa. That's why I really liked that SL, even though it was a million years ago at this point and I really should shut up about it! Anyway, so now he seems like he's trying to wear "Dean's" skin like it's a mask/shield in the same way he used to try and wear "John's." But again, it's not working, he can't quite breathe life into the "character." But I think that just like he finally was successful at "becoming" John (with Lisa), albeit it scared him and turned out to be a "be careful what you wish for" situation, I think that he'll finally be successful at "becoming" Dean again, but it'll also scare him. I think that's what the "born killer" stuff is about, the fear (on Dean's part) that the "real" Dean is the killer (the monster, the demon). I think he's afraid that the killer/monster/demon is his "real" self, and his humanity is just a mask ("humanity" in this case maybe being the "John" persona he used to try to wear and now the "Dean" persona he's trying to wear), and he can feel that mask of humanity slipping off, it doesn't fit right anymore anyway, and soon it's going to get torn off completely and his "real" self (the killer/monster) is going to be loose and exposed. I don't think it's *true* that his "real" self is a killer or is a monster, but I think that's something he's worried about, and if he worries hard enough, he might be compelled despite himself to make it reality. The reason I think he's worried about it is because he's been overcompensating so hard, and also he's always telling people that he's basically doomed to be a hunter (like he told Cole) or other related thing like how he's said he's "a killer, not a father." In the previous episode, he got too into his fake identity as an FBI guy, and in this episode, he got too into his identity as Dean...Idk, that makes me think that he's casting around desperately for a mask to wear because he already is feeling too exposed and out of control, but of course the more he worries about being exposed and out of control, the more likely he is to be those things. Meh, just spitballing :) But they walk a fine line here because if you take Dean or Sam too dark you lose the show and you end up with vampire diaries where no one is good and I hate that show. If you make demon!Dean into a hero without him sacrificing himself then what are you saying about demons like Crowley is not that bad? Are you saying that your big damn hero is not so much? Having Dean be nothing more than a slave to the Mark is far less interesting than having Dean be a powerful demon. Yes, I hate how nobody on TVD has a moral compass, it's irritating. But Dean also has been orienting himself more toward the rule of "Save Sam" than he has toward a larger morality for a long time now. I'm not sure if that's on purpose on the part of the show or what. I think that two major things that he did were to try to convince Sam not to finish the Trials (though it was ultimately Sam's decision to stop, it's not that I'm holding Dean culpable for that, I think it was already a big deal that his perspective was oriented toward looking out for himself/their family even when it was at odds with the greater good, i.e., he'd rather have Sam alive and Hell open than Sam dead but Hell closed), and when he decided that in order to save Sam he was willing to betray Sam by letting Gadreel possess him. That whole thing was so sloppily done that I'm not honestly sure what the show was trying to do with it, though. I mean, Sam went from not willing to die for the Trials to being at peace with dying in a hospital bed without finishing the Trials to letting Dean!Gadreel talk him into saying yes to living, all within like an hour?! Idk, I didn't get it. Well anyway. But yeah, I think Rowena is going to play Crowley BAD. And I don't think that Crowley is full demon anymore. So I think it's definitely not out of the question for Dean to out-demon Crowley in the future, though maybe Crowley will also go darker once Rowena has messed with him, Idk. 1 Link to comment
cassandle December 10, 2014 Share December 10, 2014 And Sam, the only and first thing out of Sam`s mouth is "OMG, justify yourself to me right this instant". There should have been a mix of emotions, with worry and horror FOR Dean at least as much, if not moreso than AT Dean. The reaction and dialogue delivery boiling down to "deny your evident monster-dom" was NOT a suitable character reaction IMO. [...] If the situations were reversed IMO Dean would have conveyed worry FOR the person, be it Sam and also to a degree Cas. But somehow, it once again doesn`t work with the roles flipped. Just like when Dean was the sidekick he spent endless hours worrying and angsting about the person with the mytharc problem and last year with the first MOC Sam and Cas had a one-minute conversation that basically resulted in "well, good talk". I was literally yelling at the TV, "Sam, hug your brother! He's clearly upset--hug him and tell him it'll be okay!" I was ridiculously mad at Sam for not taking care of his brother first and asking questions later. Link to comment
mizkat December 10, 2014 Share December 10, 2014 And Sam, the only and first thing out of Sam`s mouth is "OMG, justify yourself to me right this instant". There should have been a mix of emotions, with worry and horror FOR Dean at least as much, if not moreso than AT Dean. Actually, that's what I saw--a man begging his brother to be okay. I didn't see it as a justification moment. Sam was right there, kneeling in front of him and holding his shoulders, trying to get through to Dean and hoping it wasn't what it seemed to be, not out of indignation but because he's scared for Dean. Sam knows MOC-free Dean would never commit that kind of slaughter in that short period of time. I think for the past couple of episodes Sam has basically been in wishful thinking mode when it comes to Dean being okay. I think Jared's done a good job of subtly showing his worry without hovering or hand-wringing or being accusatory. But really, the whole episode sucked IMO. Apologies to those who liked it. The Cas stuff was boring and I don't for a minute believe that he would walk away from Claire, not because he's living in her father's vessel but because Cas has a strong sense of justice. He doesn't know how to be a father but he doesn't need a cheesy story about fatherly rescues to make sure a young girl is safe. This is the kind of passive character writing that drives me nuts, and all the leads have been written this way more often than not in the past few seasons. The scene in the bar was one of the few times I've seen Jensen "acting". I also saw it with Jared but it wasn't as forced only because he didn't have as many lines. Jensen had to make that story interesting, relevant, and above all, believable. Plus, all three actors had to play the scene like it was more important to sit in a bar and talk than to do something while a young troubled girl was getting herself into more trouble. The Crowley Mama Drama was okay. I'll be extremely disappointed if Dean doesn't call him Fergalicious at some point during the season. 5 Link to comment
SueB December 10, 2014 Share December 10, 2014 Excellent insights rue721, about Dean becoming what he's afraid of. I'll be extremely disappointed if Dean doesn't call him Fergalicious at some point I need this now too. Link to comment
rue721 December 10, 2014 Share December 10, 2014 (edited) I don't understand. Dean (or, perhaps more accurately, the Mark) killed a room full of humans. They weren't innocent, but that's immaterial, IMO. Original Recipe Dean would have kicked their asses and left them tied up for the cops. (The Benders, human Gordon, etc.) MoC Dean straight up slaughtered them. And this is okay? I don't think it's OK, but they've all been slaughtering humans for SO LONG that I'm not sure what reaction the show's even going for. All those angels and demons they've knifed without a second thought were in human "vessels." Yes, it's horrible that Dean murdered people in this episode. But it was also horrible when he (and all the "good guys") killed all those people a couple episodes back whose only crime afaik was being possessed by demons who were running a crime ring. At least the human beings in this episode made the *choice* to run a crime ring. Not that they should have been murdered either, but once it's OK to murder human "vessels" how is it not OK to murder people for their own transgressions? It's always been horrible that they've murdered people, so why is this massacre so different from all those other massacres? Their hands have been bloody for a long time now. Way back in the day, when Dean killed that possessed man who was attacking Sam by shooting him in the head with the Colt bullet, it was a fairly big deal on the show and he was pretty broken up about it.*** But they've gotten far away from that kind of thinking. The monsters this season have been treated pretty differently than in the past, though -- they've gotten relatively sympathetic backstories and killing them seemed more like "murder" and less like "pest control" than it has for a long time imo. The chickens have been coming home to roost w/r/t Cole and Claire, too, and in both cases, it's been clear that the "heroes" of the show are the legitimately the villains/killers in other people's stories. So maybe they're actually going in the direction of rethinking their stance toward killing altogether? I was literally yelling at the TV, "Sam, hug your brother! He's clearly upset--hug him and tell him it'll be okay!" I was ridiculously mad at Sam for not taking care of his brother first and asking questions later. Really?! I was like, "He's still got the knife! Keep back!" Dean was clearly upset but he was also clearly dangerous as hell. It seemed to me that Sam just got right in his face and started talking to him like he wasn't afraid that Dean would attack him at all, which imo was so dangerous because Dean didn't look in his right mind. Idk, all my instincts would have been screaming "get out get out get out get out!" There is no way I would have been hugging or even touching someone with that look on his face even if he didn't have a weapon in his hand, blood on his face, and corpses surrounding him. ***Back then, he was shocked that he hadn't hesitated (iIrc), and said it scared him what he'd be willing to do for his family without batting an eye. Even after all these years, I actually don't think that he's found that limit yet. It just keeps getting pushed further and further. Edited December 10, 2014 by rue721 1 Link to comment
catrox14 December 10, 2014 Share December 10, 2014 I was literally yelling at the TV, "Sam, hug your brother! He's clearly upset--hug him and tell him it'll be okay!" I was ridiculously mad at Sam for not taking care of his brother first and asking questions later. Yes this really bothered me as well. You and aeryn13 articulated my issue better than I could. I I remain convinced that Jared for all his skills does not handle angst for others very well. I think he was going for oh Gods please don't make me kill you but it really came across to me as "what have you done!". I also remain convinced that Sam is as afraid OF Dean as he is for Dean. Link to comment
Aeryn13 December 10, 2014 Share December 10, 2014 (edited) It seemed to me that Sam just got right in his face and started talking to him like he wasn't afraid that Dean would attack him at all It wouldn`t have made sense to me if he did. Dean didn`t randomely freak out in the diner and kill the patrons or try to jump Cas there without rhyme or reason, he obviously freaked out on those people. That means, even in his Mark"ed" state, he still differentiates somewhat. He isn`t blindly killing everything that moves in front of him. And even then with his insane Sam-obsession, Sam would probably be save. Right now? Safe as houses. And he looked completely shell-shocked and out of it, horrified. I don`t think he was a danger to anyone anymore at this point. Sam freaking out and knifing Dean would have been a far more likely scenario there then the other way around. Another CW show, the 100, recently had a scene where a character commited an outright massacre that made Dean here look sane, stable and perfectly heroic. And afterwards that character had a total psycho glimmer in his eyes when his friends found him. It was creepy as hell. But even there I was completely sure he wasn`t any danger to them/his love interest. Edited December 10, 2014 by Aeryn13 Link to comment
rue721 December 10, 2014 Share December 10, 2014 (edited) And he looked completely shell-shocked and out of it, horrified. I don`t think he was a danger to anyone anymore at this point. Sam freaking out and knifing Dean would have been a far more likely scenario there then the other way around. That shell-shocked look is exactly why I would be standing well out of his arms' reach. He's holding a knife, and who knows what he's seeing. He wouldn't ever *want* to hurt Sam, I don't think, but who knows what his reaction could be if/when he startles. It's likely to be in reaction to whatever he's seeing inside his mind (i.e., a massacre), not what was in front of him (i.e., Sam), because that look on his face imo was him looking inward, not at what was in front of him. Edited December 10, 2014 by rue721 Link to comment
Demented Daisy December 10, 2014 Share December 10, 2014 I don't think it's OK, but they've all been slaughtering humans for SO LONG that I'm not sure what reaction the show's even going for. All those angels and demons they've knifed without a second thought were in human "vessels." Yes, it's horrible that Dean murdered people in this episode. But it was also horrible when he (and all the "good guys") killed all those people a couple episodes back whose only crime afaik was being possessed by demons who were running a crime ring. At least the human beings in this episode made the *choice* to run a crime ring. Not that they should have been murdered either, but once it's OK to murder human "vessels" how is it not OK to murder people for their own transgressions? But they don't murder the human vessels. I don't remember which episode, but it's been explained that those vessels are rode hard. Their bodies (and their minds) are broken. By the demons, anyway. Those people could never go back to a regular human life. It would be torture for them. They remember what the demons did while inside their bodies. They know what the demon did with their hands, and that's not something they can just forget. And they can't exactly get therapy for it, either. So is it, objectively, right that Sam and Dean kill the vessels? It's debatable. But I would never call it murder. 2 Link to comment
Aeryn13 December 10, 2014 Share December 10, 2014 Back in the day we also had our first werewolf episode which went like "oh, this nice formerly human girl has turned...sorry, Madison, we looked for five whole minutes but there is no cure...I completely agree, kill me on the spot". And now in the age of happy werewolf families where Garth marries into, it looks like they almost murdered her for no good reason. So I think it`s way worse what has been happening with the vessels for years now than what Dean did here. Maybe demons happily took good people as vessels just for shits and giggles. So those good people deserve a knife to the gut without a care in the world but I`m supposed to cry for people who actively chose to be evil? Not really, show. They have casually made their protagonists murderers without a care for a long time now. I`ve accepted it and let it slide. But that means they can also kiss my ass about trying to break out the "oooohhhh, this is so dark and evil and murderous" now. If Dean had killed Cas and Sam and raped Claire himself right then and there, we would be talking a new level of darkness - which is NOT what I want to see ever because hello irredeemable - but the moral outrage train has long since left the station for me. Link to comment
cassandle December 10, 2014 Share December 10, 2014 I was literally yelling at the TV, "Sam, hug your brother! He's clearly upset--hug him and tell him it'll be okay!" I was ridiculously mad at Sam for not taking care of his brother first and asking questions later. Really?! I was like, "He's still got the knife! Keep back!" Dean was clearly upset but he was also clearly dangerous as hell. It seemed to me that Sam just got right in his face and started talking to him like he wasn't afraid that Dean would attack him at all, which imo was so dangerous because Dean didn't look in his right mind. Idk, all my instincts would have been screaming "get out get out get out get out!" There is no way I would have been hugging or even touching someone with that look on his face even if he didn't have a weapon in his hand, blood on his face, and corpses surrounding him. To be perfectly honest I frequently want to give Dean hugs. And I don't think it's purely because he's my TV boyfriend ;) More often than not he just breaks my heart--due to the writing or acting or whatever--and I always feel way more sympathy for Dean than I do for Sam or any other character. I really liked Season 8 mainly because Dean was so uncharacteristically huggy with everyone. It made me smile. As for the meat suits.... I feel it depends on what the demon has done. Original Meg probably would have been okay once the demon was exorcised (physically at least) if she hadn't been thrown off a building. If they've only been possessed for a couple hours before Dean and Sam show up to take care of them it would be worse than if they'd been possessed for years. I definitely think that's one of the reasons Dean slaughtering a room full of men didn't strike me as too horrific--I've been too desensitized at this point. Link to comment
SueB December 10, 2014 Share December 10, 2014 I think Dean slaughtering regular humans is always supposed to be disturbing (#Thinman and last night). Since the opening of the Devil's gate at the end of S1, they've made it clear that the demons were riding the humans hard. And it got worse when Lucifer rose. The abject lesson Ruby taught them was one loose demon kills many. So kill unless the are trapped and they can take the time AND they think the person is still viable. Most times the conditions aren't meant. So, I've sort of got desensitized to those deaths. But regular humans should not be killed. They aren't the law, they are monster hunters. Which brings me back to my question earlier: how are they going to clean up that crime scene and what are they going to do with Claire (who knows about the deaths). This really was a mess. If it was Dean, he's put Sam in the dungeon and re-apply purified blood or something. At the end of the day, I know there's enough "gray" in the situation that we the audience are able to move past it. Not just because they were assholes but because it was 5 to 1 and they were threatening Dean. Original recipe Dean would have likely used less deadly force but MoC Dean? That kick to the head was like the dinner bell -- it wants to be sated. Link to comment
catrox14 December 10, 2014 Share December 10, 2014 (edited) If everything was exactly the same only it was Dean 1.0, he would be unconscious or dead. If he survived the kick to the head he would have still been trapped in that room because Sam and Cas left him and didn't go back until they heard the commotion. Why did Sam not stay back with Dean to make sure he got out too or at least wait by the door to make sure he got out? Dean was going to leave until the one guy shut the door after Sam got out. That is some poor tactics by Sam and Cas when they were outnumbered in the first place. I don't think the kick to the head was the dinner bell. Dean was fighting for his life and badly outnumbered. If Dean 1.0 survived he would have fought just as hard and with as much brutality to survive. IMO the only thing I suspect happened was that he has more speed and strength because of the Mark. He didn't have the first blade to use his Jedi trick to will the blade to his hand. I really don't have any problem with him using any tactic to survive there be he regular!Dean or MoC!Dean. It's not. Like he closed the door in order to purposefully slaughter them. They trapped him and even if he knew what he could do I don't care that he did it given the circumstances Edited December 10, 2014 by catrox14 1 Link to comment
mertensia December 10, 2014 Share December 10, 2014 I think they deliberately chose The Three Stooges because much of the humor came from seeing one of them get hurt. Dean was laughing at that. The pain. That's the MoC creeping in. I gotta say that grilled cheese sandwich looked good. To me, at the end, Sam is begging Dean to tell him he's still human. Dean wouldn't look at you or let you see his eyes so I'm not so sure there, Sam. 4 Link to comment
supposebly December 11, 2014 Share December 11, 2014 (edited) A lot of things that could have been done better. But then, I don't know why I still hope for subtlety on this show. Although Dean being so 120% Dean was nicely played. To me, at the end, Sam is begging Dean to tell him he's still human. That's what I saw. What I found so irritating was when Dean goes all how awesome John was and it sounded like some bad fanfic I've seen years ago. I liked the idea to address the fact that saving the world always leaves sacrifices. I just didn't believe the mother would have gone off "to find herself". She was very protective of Claire especially when Jimmy came back. Both this and the John story were just so lazy. And didn't feel right with the characters I know. So Crowley hangs out in a place with a tacky throne. With a torture dungeon. Not even a sex torture dungeon. And has mommy issues after hundreds of years. He could just kill her and then make her a demon. As a witch, she would end up in hell anyway. I could NOT care less about this story. I do remember that Ruby said in season 3 that you become a demon losing your humanity. Unless the cure in season 8 still has some aftereffects, I really don't understand why Crowley is still upset about his mommy leaving. Also, he looks bored. I wonder if Mark Sheppard is bored too. Edited December 11, 2014 by supposebly Link to comment
SueB December 11, 2014 Share December 11, 2014 Did anyone else give a wee *sob* when Claire said she prayed to Cas every night and he said "I know."? Also, he looks bored. I wonder if Mark Sheppard is bored too. He's pining for Demon!Dean. I'm sure of it. 1 Link to comment
catrox14 December 11, 2014 Share December 11, 2014 Did anyone else give a wee *sob* when Claire said she prayed to Cas every night and he said "I know."? Nope. It actually pissed my off because it was a direct steal from Dean. Stop fucking with the profound bond, writers Link to comment
cassandle December 11, 2014 Share December 11, 2014 He's pining for Demon!Dean. I'm sure of it. Yup, I bet none of his henchmen would happily don a sombrero and go out for shots with him. So Crowley hangs out in a place with a tacky throne. With a torture dungeon. Not even a sex torture dungeon. And has mommy issues after hundreds of years. He could just kill her and then make her a demon. As a witch, she would end up in hell anyway. I could NOT care less about this story. Ditto. This storyline is a supreme waste of Mark Sheppard. He's too good to be spending all his time sitting and talking. And if he must be sitting around talking, at least have it done in the vicinity of Sam and Dean because then he'd be making fun of them and it would be funny. I don't remember one single thing that happened in his scenes last night. I either tuned them out at the time or instantly forgot them. Link to comment
catrox14 December 11, 2014 Share December 11, 2014 Listening to Jensen it's clear to me that he was disappointed that they wrapped demon! Dean so soon. And as much as I hate Crowley his scenes with Dean are just fantastic. So maybe Mark and Crowley miss jensen and Dean. Link to comment
AwesomO4000 December 11, 2014 Share December 11, 2014 (edited) But the whole thing just felt off--it didn't fit the Dean and John dynamic we've seen since season 1. I think what really makes the story bad is the I hate you, but kids do sometimes say that for the stupid of reasons. Depending on what was in Dean's drink, that may have affected his behavior, too. That and Dean's tendency to blame himself or make himself sound worse in his stories. Edited to add: If the situations were reversed IMO Dean would have conveyed worry FOR the person, be it Sam and also to a degree Cas. I'm not as sure about that. There has been evidence to the contrary, especially when Sam did things Dean considered to be in the "monster" category. He didn't sit with Sam through his detox either - even when it wasn't Sam's fault (like in "My Bloody Valentine"). When Castiel was crazy, Dean was less sympathetic and more "I don't care, we have a job to do, so suck it up and fix your mess." So for me it could go either way with Dean showing worry, depending on the situation and what Dean was feeling at the moment. Besides, I saw tons of worry from Sam there - I agree with supposebly on that one - without Sam crowding him. Somehow, brother or not, I don't think a shell-shocked Dean would be "comforted" by a big moose throwing his arms around him. That might actually feel constraining or like Sam was trying to manhandle him. I thought Jared portrayed a nice combination of concern and of some already thin denial brutally shattered in an unexpected way. As mertensia said, I read it more as "please Dean, tell me this isn't happening" more than anything else. And as for Sam not being afraid of Dean.... why not? He has no idea what the mark is doing or how it entirely affects Dean. And demon Dean did try to bash Sam's head in. Sam's seen mark of Cain Dean go into overkill mode that took Sam shouting at him to get him out of it. Even if Sam doesn't consciously want to be wary of mark-of-Cain induced Dean, I can see him being subconsciously a little wary. But despite that Sam was there, trying to make eye contact and figure out what happened. Edited December 11, 2014 by AwesomO4000 2 Link to comment
Pete Martell December 11, 2014 Share December 11, 2014 But really, the whole episode sucked IMO. Apologies to those who liked it. The Cas stuff was boring and I don't for a minute believe that he would walk away from Claire, not because he's living in her father's vessel but because Cas has a strong sense of justice. He doesn't know how to be a father but he doesn't need a cheesy story about fatherly rescues to make sure a young girl is safe. This is the kind of passive character writing that drives me nuts, and all the leads have been written this way more often than not in the past few seasons. As far as Cas was concerned, he'd done nothing but ruin Claire's life. He'd also had a history of doing what he thought would help (repeatedly trying to change or save Heaven) and it ending disastrously almost every time. I think that's why he wasn't sure what to do. Listening to Jensen it's clear to me that he was disappointed that they wrapped demon! Dean so soon. And as much as I hate Crowley his scenes with Dean are just fantastic. So maybe Mark and Crowley miss jensen and Dean. I can see why Jensen would miss the story, but I'm relieved to not have to see any more "bromance" lolgay material. The show was not willing to write a truly dark relationship between them, as they seem unwilling to take Crowley that far, period. Ditto. This storyline is a supreme waste of Mark Sheppard. He's too good to be spending all his time sitting and talking. And if he must be sitting around talking, at least have it done in the vicinity of Sam and Dean because then he'd be making fun of them and it would be funny. I don't remember one single thing that happened in his scenes last night. I either tuned them out at the time or instantly forgot them. I actually prefer this type of material to most of his scenes with Sam and Dean at this point. How many times can they not kill him? How many times can he say "moose" and then quasi-flirt with them? Getting more info on Crowley's life and introducing a new character into the mix is a chance for Mark to get to play more layers, and some comedy material with a hint of bite. I thought he did a good job with Crowley's ambiguity over his mother. I also liked the other woman who was trapped with Rowena. I think that's something (a demon who is trying to break out of Crowley's realm at any cost) the show could work with, although I know they won't. The main problem is that none of this has much to do with the main show itself. What does (Crowley ruling Hell, Crowley's relationships with the main characters) have to do with the main show bores me at this point. I really wish they'd ended last season with Dean, human or demon, killing Crowley. I think that's what everything had been building up to all season long, and it would have been a shocking moment. 3 Link to comment
7kstar December 11, 2014 Share December 11, 2014 I wish the ending had had more time as it was the more important part. I get Jensen and Jared having a hard time about the bar scene, but I just like John being a father for once. But could they have done something different...or better, sure. It feels like to me, Dean has had his fair share of people trying to take advantage of him and I always thought his time in hell has issues that weren't really explored and certainly they have hinted many sexual abuse issues. It's why I never bought that Sam's hell was soooo much worse. I think this one could have been so much stronger, but it just didn't do what they had planned on it doing. Can't rewatch right now, but will try to latter and see if the second time if I like any of it more. I think my main issue with Claire is that I didn't really buy it. I don't know if it was the writing or acting. But it was one of the weakest eps for the season for me. Hopefully an ep that is later will make it better. 1 Link to comment
rue721 December 11, 2014 Share December 11, 2014 (edited) The main problem is that none of this has much to do with the main show itself. What does (Crowley ruling Hell, Crowley's relationships with the main characters) have to do with the main show bores me at this point. I really wish they'd ended last season with Dean, human or demon, killing Crowley. I think that's what everything had been building up to all season long, and it would have been a shocking moment. Yes, I agree. The problem with Crowley is that he's fine as a character, I guess, but he has nothing to do with anything. They clearly have been treading water with that character for ages and ages now. When was he in that trailer drinking liquor and just hanging out? That was already stupid and pointless and that had to have been years ago. But I have hopes for this storyline with Rowena to make him relatively relevant again. It's a step up from his weird thing of looking at selfies of himself with Dean while filling out paperwork for Hell denizens or whatever he was doing previously, at least. Somehow, brother or not, I don't think a shell-shocked Dean would be "comforted" by a big moose throwing his arms around him. That might actually feel constraining or like Sam was trying to manhandle him. I thought Jared portrayed a nice combination of concern and of some already thin denial brutally shattered in an unexpected way. Yes, completely agree. It was worrying me that Sam rushed right up to Dean and was grabbing him on the neck like that while Dean was still holding the knife between them. I just kept imagining the knife coming up right into Sam's chest. I don't know what has to happen for Sam to be wary, you'd think he'd already be "once burned, twice shy" ever since he came across his brother *as a demon.* And to a certain extent he has been wary, but when push comes to shove, I guess when he looks at Dean he still only sees his brother and doesn't see a threat. But uh does Sam need to actually get stabbed before he realizes that someone in that state might react violently on instinct and that he could get hurt or killed as a result? Dean can be his brother *and* a threat. Sam didn't even glance at the knife, though, he kept his eyes on Dean's face and did whatever he could to meet his eye. To me, that showed that he was afraid *for* Dean (and needed to know he still had his brother there). If he'd been afraid *of* Dean, he would have been more conscious of the knife and he wouldn't have come within arms' reach so thoughtlessly. I think that Sam was shocked by the tableau he walked into when he went back in the house, was terrified that he'd lost or was losing his brother, and desperately needed reassurance from Dean that he was still Dean. When he grabbed him, imo he was reaching out to try to pull him back from the brink. It's also worrying that when Dean snapped, it was *such* a violent, fast change (from regular-ish!Dean to Moc!Dean) -- that probably will make everyone else wonder how much effort and control it's really been taking Dean to keep up some kind of semblance of being his normal self, when he's trying to keep in check and cover up a compulsion that powerful. In dealing with Dean, imo it'd be legitimate for Sam to be afraid of poking the dragon, even while wanting to connect with the non-dragon part of Dean -- but Sam didn't seem afraid. UGH I hope for both their sakes that Sam doesn't "learn his lesson the hard way." Anyway, the thing of the door closing behind Sam while Dean was still in the house, and Cas, Sam, and Claire taking so long to get into the car, etc, just seemed like lazy writing to me. I don't think it really meant anything character-wise, I think it was a poorly done contrivance to get Dean alone in the house with the criminals for a short time. Something else that I noticed just now as I re-watched the scene to make sure that I remembered it right was that as Cas goes in to rescue Claire, she manages to use the diversion of Cas coming through the door to get the upper hand on her attacker. She gets him on the ground and starts kicking him like she's losing herself in the frenzy of it, and Cas has to call her name more than once and pull her away before she stops. I think that's also supposed to be a parallel of what happens in the next scene, when Dean gets attacked downstairs and he also loses it in a frenzy, but much more violently, and the massacre is over before Sam gets there to pull him away. I think that Claire and Dean were supposed to mirror each other throughout the episode, but in that case, I'm not sure who is supposed to be Dean's "Randy," the person who sold him down the river. Crowley? Not to take things too literally. But I would think that the reason they'd even bother to create the Randy character for Claire's SL, though, was because he has a fairly important counterpart in Dean's. Edited December 11, 2014 by rue721 Link to comment
rue721 December 11, 2014 Share December 11, 2014 (edited) It feels like to me, Dean has had his fair share of people trying to take advantage of him and I always thought his time in hell has issues that weren't really explored and certainly they have hinted many sexual abuse issues. The show has used rape as a threat *a lot.* There's no dearth of explicit onscreen references to rape as a threat, including against Dean. Dean literally has referred to "demon rape" as a reason not to want to go to Hell (after he had come back from Hell, but I don't remember the exact episode. I was just taken aback because "demon rape"?! horrifying image). I'm completely, utterly, 100% fine with them not going into great detail about that. One thing that makes it difficult for me to understand what was going on when Dean was in Hell is that I can't really picture how Hell is set up in general. That spiderweb thing, and then using the torture devices as though people in Hell are still in physical bodies? Idk, I just couldn't get a handle on it. I wish the show could actually set an episode down there the way they did with Heaven. A tour would be very helpful, lol. Edited December 11, 2014 by rue721 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 December 11, 2014 Share December 11, 2014 When was he in that trailer drinking liquor and just hanging out? That was already stupid and pointless and that had to have been years ago. But I have hopes for this storyline with Rowena to make him relatively relevant again. It's a step up from his weird thing of looking at selfies of himself with Dean while filling out paperwork for Hell denizens or whatever he was doing previously, at least. If the trailer scene with Crowley is the one I am thinking of, that was actually a fun scene for me... and it became relevant later, because yes, that was sad and that was actually the point. Crowley was hanging out in the trailer because Castiel had pulled one over on him and become Godstiel. Crowley was scared of what Castiel would do to him in revenge, so he was in the trailer because he was in hiding. Castiel found him and told him the crappy terms - he'd give Crowley a pittance of souls on his terms - and told Crowley that he worked for him (Cas) now. Crowley was supposed to be pathetic, because later in the episode when Sam and Dean called him and wanted Crowley's help to take Castiel down, Crowley was jumping at the chance to get out of his trailer and out from under Cas' thumb where he might get smited on a whim from the unpredictable "mutated angel" (TM Death). Point I guess... sometimes Crowley's story seems sad and tangential, but they bring it around to the main story eventually. Let's hope that his story now is a case of that and not say like the Amelia story of season 8 which turned out not only to be boring, but pretty irrelevant as well - in my opinion anyway. Link to comment
Pete Martell December 11, 2014 Share December 11, 2014 I think that Claire and Dean were supposed to mirror each other throughout the episode, but in that case, I'm not sure who is supposed to be Dean's "Randy," the person who sold him down the river. Crowley? Not to take things too literally. But I would think that the reason they'd even bother to create the Randy character for Claire's SL, though, was because he has a fairly important counterpart in Dean's. I'm not sure if the parallels were supposedly to be completely similar, as there were a number of them throughout the episode. I also wonder if they had that scene so we'd have hope that Randy might save Claire. I read this meta on it: http://deathbycoldopen.tumblr.com/post/104890195597/the-parents-we-havent-left-behind 1 Link to comment
SueB December 11, 2014 Share December 11, 2014 I don't remember the exact episode. I was just taken aback because "demon rape" All Dogs Go To Heaven. Soulless!Sam was ready to hall the Mom in and Dean wanted more proof. Link to comment
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