S10.E09: The Things We Left Behind

[Miles]

If Cas really feels so bad, why doesn't he just bring the girls father back? We know that angels can drag souls out of hell and put them back into bodies. Cas did that with Dean in the beforetimes, the long long ago (when we still had good writing). Are you really telling me that getting souls out of heaven, where you can walk in and out as you please, since you some weird kind of hero, is so much harder? Oh please.

Also that ending of the peisode was ridiculous. Why in the hell would Sam ever leave Dean alone in a house full of thugs? Did the girl really need two people escorting her out? Really?! Or did he really not notice that Dean wasn't coming out with him? Man, Sam is blind.

[mizkat]

One thing that makes it difficult for me to understand what was going on when Dean was in Hell is that I can't really picture how Hell is set up in general. That spiderweb thing, and then using the torture devices as though people in Hell are still in physical bodies? Idk, I just couldn't get a handle on it. I wish the show could actually set an episode down there the way they did with Heaven. A tour would be very helpful, lol.

 

An easy way to do this would be to explain hell as psychological terror in addition to physical pain. They've used brimstone and fire imagery too much, imo. Hell is what you fear most. I can see Dean being trapped with a hook through his shoulder as a clear representation of hell that's physical and psychological pain. Then they fumbled when it came to Sam in hell, then threw away the playbook when it came to Bobby in hell. Gabriel actually put Sam through a personal hell in Mystery Spot, where he had to see Dean die over and over again. There are a lot of things they could do to make it interesting and frightening, but they don't.

 

I really, really, really wish the writers wouldn't spend so much time on shoehorning literary devices like parallels and mirroring and just write a compelling story. Those devices and others will organically appear when the plot remains true to the characters and motivations and backstory that has already been set up.

 

I think this episode highlighted the problems of what to do about Dean, Cas, and Crowley. For once Sam is in a decent place. He's not overreacting, sulking, acting like a child, running over dogs, drinking demon blood, or blaming others for his problems. He seems to have finally grown. He also has an important place in the storyline because he has to figure out how to help/save his brother (umpteenth time for this conflict) but it seems to be more nuanced. As for the other three: 

 

Dean: you know, if you're going to go there with the demon, go there with the demon. That's my biggest grip about this s/l. I watched the clip posted upthread, and heard Jared say that the writers trust them with the characters (as they should). They should trust that Jensen will portray a dark, tortured, twisted Dean in a way that will still make him sympathetic to the audience. It can be done. It should be done. Instead, like Tippi said, they're pulling their punches and I think they're cheating their viewers and both Jensen and Jared out of some really good performances. Slaughtering people who are threatening you and were about to rape/assault a young girl isn't shocking motivation. 

 

Crowley: I'm wondering if the reticence to set up a truly evil empire is because he still has some residual humanity. I think Mark is playing it that way. Again, here's a great actor who could do a lot more with some psychological material. The problem, as pointed out above, is that it doesn't tie into the main story. Crowley could be planning revenge against Dean who betrayed him, and he could be slowly losing his mind while his minions try to figure out why the king is singularly focused on this one Winchester. Once his mother comes on the scene, he could use her as a tool to get to Dean, only to realize later that he was being played by her. This is just one way it could go so that the characters and s/l are intertwined. The way it is now, it's structured like a soap opera, with several stories going on at once and only brushing against each other during the holiday eps. 

 

Cas: He literally has nothing to do. He has no real conflict. He could just go back to heaven, but what is keeping him here? Why isn't he teaming up with Sam to help Dean? Why isn't he trying to help Dean himself? Why aren't he and Dean in conflict with each other--demon v. angel? Has he cleaned up the mess with Jimmy's daughter? Who knows, because they'll probably drop it for a few eps and then bring it up later or next season as another one off ep. Why didn't he find Claire's mother? Why didn't he go straight to Randy? Seems like he has enough mojo to do some of that stuff, but he did very little. 

 

A few people mentioned how aimless this season is. I was happy with three of the episodes, but they were mostly in isolation from the main mytharc, which is the biggest problem this season has. There's no goal, no quest. Each season has had a quest- find John, save Dean, kill Lilith, stop the apocalypse, get Sam's soul back, fight the Leviathan, do the trials and shut down hell, deal with the angels falling. I'm not saying those were all good goals or that they were executed well, but there was something to work toward. I don't know what they're working toward this season. Getting rid of the Mark? What's the endgame for S10? Or is it there and I'm missing it? 

[Pete Martell]

Dean: you know, if you're going to go there with the demon, go there with the demon. That's my biggest grip about this s/l. I watched the clip posted upthread, and heard Jared say that the writers trust them with the characters (as they should). They should trust that Jensen will portray a dark, tortured, twisted Dean in a way that will still make him sympathetic to the audience. It can be done. It should be done. Instead, like Tippi said, they're pulling their punches and I think they're cheating their viewers and both Jensen and Jared out of some really good performances. Slaughtering people who are threatening you and were about to rape/assault a young girl isn't shocking motivation. 

 

At some point performances can't trump writing, no matter what the quality of the work is.

 

I thought Jared did a very good job in most of season 4, but he couldn't save Sam from the writing hole that the last episodes of season 4 put Sam into. The character lost most of his voice and purpose beyond the brother who does terrible things the show can't quite ever address and instead relies on Dean or Dean's guilt to try to paper over it. And then in season 8, it didn't matter what Jared may have tried to do, not looking for Dean for a year and not looking for Kevin for a year destroyed Sam in the eyes of many fans. 

 

If they had Dean doing what many demons or villains do - raping, murdering innocent people, etc. - I'm sure that a lot of fans would write it off, and I'm sure Jensen would play it brilliantly, but even with a "this isn't really him" loophole, it would still feel like shock value to me, and would be just more guilt on Dean that would never be dealt with beyond angsty brow-furrowing.

 

I think the story works as it's not about what crazy things will Dean do next, but about his being afraid of losing control, especially since he's never really had any control in his life. I'm not sure how I will feel if they don't follow all the way through, and use this story to let Dean rebuild himself from the ground up, but for now I think it works in avoiding melodrama over what slaughter Dean is committing, or any of that cheapjack writing like when "Angel" tried to make people ooh and aah by having Angel let a bunch of lawyers and their servants get devoured...never to be mentioned again.

If Cas really feels so bad, why doesn't he just bring the girls father back? We know that angels can drag souls out of hell and put them back into bodies. Cas did that with Dean in the beforetimes, the long long ago (when we still had good writing). Are you really telling me that getting souls out of heaven, where you can walk in and out as you please, since you some weird kind of hero, is so much harder? Oh please.

 

I would imagine it is so much harder, since the show has never had any character attempt it, and even getting Dean out of Hell was a huge concentrated effort with multiple casualties.

 

Cas' body is his body. It was recreated for him. Jimmy's body blew up several different times in season 4 and season 5. The body would not recognize Jimmy's soul at this point even if it were possible.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Pete Martell

[La Tortuga]

I think this season the overarching theme is that the actions taken by the Winchesters (and Castiel, and pretty much all of the cast) in the name of carrying out their supernatural work has unintended but severe human costs. They simply have not addressed those consequences in a really long time beyond whatever happened to whoever was within their immediate sphere. But now they're being confronted by that aspect of their work whether they like it or not. And it adds up the more episodes we get through. What worries me is how the writers are planning to resolve this moral conflict.

[SueB]

 

If Cas really feels so bad, why doesn't he just bring the girls father back?

Pete Martell really hit the fundamental point:

 

Cas' body is his body. It was recreated for him. Jimmy's body blew up several different times in season 4 and season 5. The body would not recognize Jimmy's soul at this point even if it were possible.

emphasis added

But I'd like to add a couple of others points:

- Heaven is not back to original recipe Heaven. The Angels don't have wings. They can only go back and forth thru a guarded backdoor. They resurrected Sam and Dean plenty of times -- they only remember the events of Dark Side of the Moon.  But I don't know if resurrection is in the New Heaven playbook.  So many angels have died, all the big-hitters are gone as well. 

- Metatron took Cas' grace and he became human.  So, as Pete said, Cas's body is now Cas.  But Cas screwed up something about his human body when he took in a stolen angel grace.  He's not going to be just human Cas again when the grace batteries run out.  He's going to be dead. 

- It might make it easier for Claire to have Jimmy back, but Jimmy doesn't deserve that.  Jimmy is at peace and suffered enough.  There's other solutions for Claire. 

 

I don't know what they're working toward this season.

The Who song "Who Are You" keeps going through my head.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdLIerfXuZ4

There's an earworm for you. Sorry, not sorry.  It's a great tune (weird video, they may be high).

I''m going to run the conversation over to All Episodes thread because I think we're due for some "mid" season thinking.  I'll give you my bottom line: I think we're heading for crystallization of EACH of our four main characters and I'm thrilled that they are taking the time to explore them even if I don't know the outcome.

Edited December 11, 2014 by SueB

[cassandle]

I just rewatched the final scene and I'm still not getting a Dean's-a-threat-to-Sam vibe.  To me, he looks like Dean's about to cry and that's why I feel he needs a hug.  But I've come to the conclusion that the reason (or the main reason) I don't feel like Dean slaughtering a bunch of humans is that big of a deal--or that Sam should be wary of him--is because we didn't see it happen.  If we had seen Dean knife his way through a roomful of bad guys in under 20 seconds it might have had more of an impact--for me at least--instead of going from Hulk Eyes to Concerned Looks to Bloody Aftermath.  And I'll admit, I love a good fight scene so I feel particularly cheated.  The flashbacks helped, but if they want me to think Dean's lost it, let me see him lose it.  Unless this is their way of saying Dean's on the verge of losing it and next time he's really gonna lose it and I get my violence and gore--then I can accept it.  But right now I just feel sorry for him rather than scared of/for him.

 

Regarding hell--we know that Dean was dead for 3 months which came to 40 years in hell, right?  Sam popped out almost instantly but did we ever find out how much hell-time that was?  I know it's different than Dean's experience since Sam was in Lucifer's cage and tortured afterwards by the hallucinations but I'd be curious to know how their "time down under" matches up.

[AwesomO4000]

Regarding hell--we know that Dean was dead for 3 months which came to 40 years in hell, right?  Sam popped out almost instantly but did we ever find out how much hell-time that was?  I know it's different than Dean's experience since Sam was in Lucifer's cage and tortured afterwards by the hallucinations but I'd be curious to know how their "time down under" matches up.

 

Taken to the "All Episodes Talk" thread.

[rue721]

An easy way to do this would be to explain hell as psychological terror in addition to physical pain. They've used brimstone and fire imagery too much, imo. Hell is what you fear most.

 

Completely agree. I think that the cage and Sam's Hell were described so much more coherently because they concentrated on the psychological aspect and kept the idea pretty straightforward and small. Mystery Spot worked well for the same reason. Dean's Hell never made sense to me because they acted like people were corporeal in Hell, which is bizarre. I also don't know why they would primarily or only use physical pain to make someone into a new person. Not that physical pain isn't horrible, but it's not an assault on identity really? Also, psychological pain is just a lot easier to portray onscreen, and can have a lot more impact onscreen. Idk, it just seems like they never thought about what it was like, and just threw random allusions to it here and there.

 

Not that I particularly liked what they had Lucifer doing in the later episodes of Sam's Hellucinations arc, because I thought it was stupid to say that he was having delusions of Lucifer reading books or singing a song over and over, but at least they tried, and I could see what they were going for. But I think that they really dropped the ball in S4 in terms of characterization in a lot of ways (there was suddenly so much yelling and crying and punching, it got so soapy and weird), and Dean-comes-back-from-Hell got really lost in the shuffle. I *wish* they would bring it up now, because you'd *think* that Dean would be terrified of going back to Hell! And I feel that terror for Sam when I think of him going back in the cage. But with Dean, it seems like that threat doesn't come up as part of the threat about becoming a demon. In this episode, Rowena's cellmate was talking about how she'd worked so hard to get out of Hell, though, so maybe it'll come up?

 

Crowley: I'm wondering if the reticence to set up a truly evil empire is because he still has some residual humanity. I think Mark is playing it that way. Again, here's a great actor who could do a lot more with some psychological material. The problem, as pointed out above, is that it doesn't tie into the main story. Crowley could be planning revenge against Dean who betrayed him, and he could be slowly losing his mind while his minions try to figure out why the king is singularly focused on this one Winchester. Once his mother comes on the scene, he could use her as a tool to get to Dean, only to realize later that he was being played by her. This is just one way it could go so that the characters and s/l are intertwined. The way it is now, it's structured like a soap opera, with several stories going on at once and only brushing against each other during the holiday eps.

 

Crowley's clever, so I find it hard to believe that if he had to choose a tool to use against a real enemy or frenemy, he'd use his mother. She's not going to be very controllable -- at least by him, since she's his mother. She's always going to have somewhat of the upper hand. That's also why it really didn't bother me that her manipulations were so obvious -- I think that was part of the point and why they worked. Like when it comes to how he deals with or even feels about Dean, it's not that Crowley doesn't know what's going on, it's that he's becoming soft. And even though I thought the whole "I deserve to be loved" thing was corny, I do think that he's struggling because he's beginning to love people and wants them to love him back. That's mostly why I think the humanity cure is still at least partway affecting him, and he seems at least part human. But honestly -- this is SO CORNY I'M SORRY apologies in advance -- if torture and torment can make a human soul into a demon, can being treated well make a demon soul into a human? The way to create a demon doesn't seem that metaphysical, so is there a demon cure that isn't that metaphysical? Not that I think we'll find that out with Crowley in any case because nobody loves him, but y'know, as a thought. 

 

Tbh, and I don't think the show will go in this direction but maybe, if I were Crowley, my plan would be to destroy Sam. First off, because if Crowley is lonely, then I would think that's what he would want Dean to feel (in revenge for Dean leaving him, not being a demon anymore, etc). And also because that would make human!Dean more vulnerable, since it was Sam who saved him the last time.

 

If they had Dean doing what many demons or villains do - raping, murdering innocent people, etc. - I'm sure that a lot of fans would write it off, and I'm sure Jensen would play it brilliantly, but even with a "this isn't really him" loophole, it would still feel like shock value to me, and would be just more guilt on Dean that would never be dealt with beyond angsty brow-furrowing.

 

I think the story works as it's not about what crazy things will Dean do next, but about his being afraid of losing control, especially since he's never really had any control in his life. I'm not sure how I will feel if they don't follow all the way through, and use this story to let Dean rebuild himself from the ground up, but for now I think it works in avoiding melodrama over what slaughter Dean is committing, or any of that cheapjack writing like when "Angel" tried to make people ooh and aah by having Angel let a bunch of lawyers and their servants get devoured...never to be mentioned again.

 

Speaking of psychological torture, though, they could (and I think attempted, but it fell a bit flat because then they just jumped out of the arc completely without it going anywhere) make Dean's demonic activities more like Lucifer's or Ruby's rather than Demon Thug #8. He's a con artist anyway, and when he himself gets pissed it's usually over something more abstract than someone just being a thug anyway.

 

I just rewatched the final scene and I'm still not getting a Dean's-a-threat-to-Sam vibe.  To me, he looks like Dean's about to cry and that's why I feel he needs a hug.  But I've come to the conclusion that the reason (or the main reason) I don't feel like Dean slaughtering a bunch of humans is that big of a deal--or that Sam should be wary of him--is because we didn't see it happen.  If we had seen Dean knife his way through a roomful of bad guys in under 20 seconds it might have had more of an impact--for me at least--instead of going from Hulk Eyes to Concerned Looks to Bloody Aftermath.  And I'll admit, I love a good fight scene so I feel particularly cheated.  The flashbacks helped, but if they want me to think Dean's lost it, let me see him lose it.  Unless this is their way of saying Dean's on the verge of losing it and next time he's really gonna lose it and I get my violence and gore--then I can accept it.  But right now I just feel sorry for him rather than scared of/for him.

 

I think that the scary part was supposed to be that Dean lost control. Apparently, him losing control for 20 seconds means he massacres everyone around him in those 20 seconds -- humans, monsters, whoever. The fear "of" him is that he'll lose control again or is still not fully in control (which is how he looked to me afterward, like he was 85% back in control maybe but not there yet). The fear "for" him is that what he's trying desperately to keep in check is so powerful and so dangerous, it seems almost inevitable (though probably won't happen, because you know, S11) that either he'll lose control of it again, maybe for good. Or that even if he doesn't, it'll eventually consume him, as it's seemed to have been doing already (he's obviously been trying hard to control this urge to kill, etc, and it's been seeping out a bit, but it seems like his control has become more brittle over time and the MoC is eating away at him).

Edited December 11, 2014 by rue721

[mertensia]

Yeah Dean annihilated those goons in something like 20 seconds. He didn't knife one or two and punch out the rest- he killed them. Messily. Brutally. That- that's not human. And on top of it he's dazed. None of this screams "typical Dean".

[Zanne]

I also don't know why they would primarily or only use physical pain to make someone into a new person. Not that physical pain isn't horrible, but it's not an assault on identity really?

 

 

Dean's Hell was a long con. His personal Hell was getting him to agree to hurt other people. It was both physical and mental because they needed Dean to make the choice to physically hurt others. Even with knowing what it was like to be on the receiving end, he made that choice. Dean was used to saving people, and he became the one they needed saving from. Sure, he tortured others once he flipped to the Dark Side, but that wasn't their Hell, it was still his. They were merely bit players in a larger story.

[SueB]

I would say that it's amazing how much psychological damage physical pain does. And it doesn't matter if it goes poof every 24 hrs, you just want it to stop. So, you'll give in to make it stop. Test of wills.

[rue721]

Dean's Hell was a long con. His personal Hell was getting him to agree to hurt other people. It was both physical and mental because they needed Dean to make the choice to physically hurt others. Even with knowing what it was like to be on the receiving end, he made that choice. Dean was used to saving people, and he became the one they needed saving from. Sure, he tortured others once he flipped to the Dark Side, but that wasn't their Hell, it was still his. They were merely bit players in a larger story.

 

I would say that it's amazing how much psychological damage physical pain does. And it doesn't matter if it goes poof every 24 hrs, you just want it to stop. So, you'll give in to make it stop. Test of wills.

 

Took this to the All Episodes thread.

[Bruinsfan]

The first was Claire's mother dumping her at the grandmothers and never coming back, even after the grandmother died.  For me, it just didn't make sense for a previously caring mother to just abandon her child like that, and smelled way too much of plot fairy dust.  Maybe if they'd set it up that the mother couldn't deal with the demon/angel possession, losing her husband, and finding out that monsters are real and the apocalypse is on its way and she went crazy and got committed or something in continuity like that, then I'd have less of a problem with it.

My assumption until the show tells me otherwise is that Amelia became demon chow not too terribly long after Claire last saw her, and may in fact have left her with the grandmother because she saw it coming.

 

It wouldn`t have made sense to me if he did. Dean didn`t randomely freak out in the diner and kill the patrons or try to jump Cas there without rhyme or reason, he obviously freaked out on those people. That means, even in his Mark"ed" state, he still differentiates somewhat. He isn`t blindly killing everything that moves in front of him. And even then with his insane Sam-obsession, Sam would probably be save. Right now? Safe as houses.  

 

And he looked completely shell-shocked and out of it, horrified. I don`t think he was a danger to anyone anymore at this point. Sam freaking out and knifing Dean would have been a far more likely scenario there then the other way around. 

Cas is still on the scene, and still presumably in possession of vast superhuman strength and speed even if more miraculous angelic powers have gone wonky. With the way he's been written as so ineffectual lately I don't know if he could be counted on to protect Sam from a demonized Dean, but I have no doubt whatsoever that Sam trying to mercy-kill Dean would be the last thing the former ever did in this world.

Edited December 12, 2014 by Bruinsfan

[SueB]

My assumption until the show tells me otherwise is that Amelia became demon chow not too terribly long after Claire last saw her, and may in fact have left her with the grandmother because she saw it coming.

I was thinking the same thing myself.

[catrox14]

 Claire knew everything that was going on so it doesn't make sense to me that Amelia would not just say off to Grandma's you go for your protection. Why would she lie to her?

[supposebly]

 

My assumption until the show tells me otherwise is that Amelia became demon chow not too terribly long after Claire last saw her, and may in fact have left her with the grandmother because she saw it coming.

 

I find that extremely hard to fanwank. Not that I saw even the slightest hint about something like that. To support something like that, there should have been at least a reaction shot on Castiel that could have shown that he might suspect that. Instead they went with the cliche line "find herself".

[Demented Daisy]

For some reason, I thought she was dead this whole time.  No idea why -- frankly, I gave no thought to either of them.

[DittyDotDot]

So, I finally got the chance to watch it and I just don't know what it is I just watched. I know the title card said it was Supernatural and it did look like that was Sam and Dean, but it definitely didn't feel like Supernatural. Hmmm.

 

Why did Castiel need Sam and Dean to help him find someone of his own angelic bloodline? At the very least I'd think he would have tried one of the locator spells he's done more than once on the show. And while I'm at it, shouldn't Claire be over 18? Wasn't she 12 back in S4--that's six years, even if you don't factor in the two-one year time jumps and the 6 month one they did this year.

 

Still think the actress playing Rowena is trying waaaay too hard and still don't care that The King of Hades has a soft spot for his mommy.

 

I found the scene with the John story very weird. Not so much the story itself, but the performances seemed off somehow. Sam was way too proud and into it and Dean seemed somehow disconnected from it entirely. It just didn't feel like Sam and Dean to me. The whole episode feels like it wasn't quite right. I'm really surprised to see Guy Bee directed it, just doesn't feel like one of his. Well, I guess everyone can have an off day, right?

 

I just can't believe this was their "big" episode before the hiatus. Really flat and really boring, IMO.

Edited December 13, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[SueB]

She was 10 in S4.

 

Amelia may have gone off to think and THEN became demon chow (hence no word).  I'll be surprised if they find her.

[DittyDotDot]

She was 10 in S4.

 

Okay, adding in the time jumps and she'd still be over 18. It's not really all that important, just always disappoints me when the show doesn't seem to know their own time frames all the damn time.

[Pete Martell]

If she's 16, wouldn't that factor in the time jumps, as the main parts of the seasons have never been said to take place over the course of a year?

 

Season 4/5 - no time jump

 

Season 5/6 - a year 

 

Season 6/7 - no time jump

 

Season 7/8 - a year

 

Season 8/9 - no time jump

 

Season 9/10 - several months

I found the scene with the John story very weird. Not so much the story itself, but the performances seemed off somehow. Sam was way too proud and into it and Dean seemed somehow disconnected from it entirely. It just didn't feel like Sam and Dean to me. 

 

Sam and Dean almost never talk about their father in front of anyone, and Cas put them on the spot, plus Sam knows Dean is having a breakdown, so I could see why they were not sure how to respond.

 

I do think the episode was disjointed. Most of the "myth arc" episodes are, but this season has jumped that up more because there's no one plot driving things forward; it's mostly what's in people's heads.

Edited December 13, 2014 by Pete Martell

[DittyDotDot]

If she's 16, wouldn't that factor in the time jumps, as the main parts of the seasons have never been said to take place over the course of a year?

 

My understanding is the seasons generally follow our regular calendar year. When Dean got out of Hell in S4, the newspaper he found was dated the day of the premiere September 18, 2008. In The End, which aired on October 1, 2009, Dean tells Future Dean he's from the tail end of 2009 and My Bloody Valentine was supposed to actually be on Valentines Day and the events that happened in Swan Song were in May. 

 

After they did the first time jump in S6, it seems they kept up with one season happening in one calendar year, but they stopped paying attention to what actual year it was. For instance there's a calendar in the background of a scene in You Can't Handle The Truth, which aired October 9, 2009, that says October 2009 instead of 2010 due to the one-year time jump between seasons. in The French Mistake, Sam say's to Ruby "Do you remember all the crazy apocalyptic stuff happening last year", but it should've been two years back because there was a whole year of show we didn't see. Same with Sam telling Samuel Colt he was from 2011 instead of 2012 in Frontierland. If you notice the dates on some of the newspapers and/or the calendars in the backgrounds of scenes, they actually line up with the same day/month the show is airing, but the year is generally wonky anymore due to them not factoring in the time jumps. So I can't count S6 and S7 as only one year together because there's other things telling me they each alone are one year. Same with S8 and S9.

 

So, if Clair was 10 in S4: S5-one year; One-year time jump; S6-one year; S7-one year; One-year time jump; S8-One year; S9-One year; Six-month time jump=8.5 years. Over eighteen by my math. However, I thought the girl was 12 back in S4, but will take SueB's word for it that she was 10 since I don't really recall it that clearly anyway. It's not really all that important in the grand scheme of things, but still is kinda annoying to me. How old are Sam and Dean at this point? What year is it really? I just think if your gonna jump time forward because it's easier than dealing with the mess you made, you shouldn't once again take the easy way out by then ignoring it.

 

I do think the episode was disjointed. Most of the "myth arc" episodes are, but this season has jumped that up more because there's no one plot driving things forward; it's mostly what's in people's heads.

 

I didn't think the episode was at all disjointed; I just had no interest in any of the storylines. I just don't care about Crowley and his mommy issues. Nor do I care about Castiel's guilt over Claire and Jimmy at this point, although I was interested in this back in S4 and S5 before Castiel had died once or twice and made the whole thing moot anyway. I care even less about Claire's new family and all their issues. And, to tell you the truth, nothing Sam or Dean did was all that interesting either. I just thought it was downright boring, even if it wasn't the "mid-season finale."

 

Actually, I'd say this season structurally feels more like watching a soap opera--which isn't inherently bad, IMO, just I don't think they have enough story anymore to tell in this format. This structure probably would've worked better back in S6 before they treaded so much territory with Castiel and Crowley; now it just feels like they're filling time to me rather than actually exploring the characters.

[SueB]

Yeah...time is like the talking Dragon on Merlin. Just have to go with it. It's NEVER going to make sense so...now is now.  Of course Space Balls explains it much better: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeZ9HhHU86o

 

Go on....click it...you KNOW you've missed that scene.

 

In other news, Guy Norman Bee was kind enough to answer a question for me:

Edited December 13, 2014 by SueB

[SueB]

Which...to me...says that at least they put this subtext in there. But since he said it was subtext, I'm thinking it wasn't scripted. And a tweet earlier this week say Jensen was rolling his eyes at Guy making him stuff his face. 

[DittyDotDot]

Guy Bee usually does a lot of subtle subtextual things in his episodes that aren't scripted. That's generally why I find his episodes land better than some of the other rotating directors. To me, they were far less subtle this time, but glad to know he's still trying to find the little details.

[Demented Daisy]

Unfortunately, they have to ignore their time jumps, as much as I hate it.  Why?  They love pop culture references.  Can't exactly reference something that happens 2 and a half years in the future, now can they?  ;-)

[catrox14]

You know, all this talk about time jumps just makes me loop back to 'King of the Damned" when Crowley lets his son stay in the present and Sam makes the comment about 'change one thing and everything changes". 

 

I am getting to the point where I kind of hope something comes back to that which would explain a lot of these time problems in the present.

[Happytobehere]

Yeah Dean annihilated those goons in something like 20 seconds. He didn't knife one or two and punch out the rest- he killed them. Messily. Brutally. That- that's not human. And on top of it he's dazed. None of this screams "typical Dean".

I like this thought, which brings me to my own. Is Dean actually alive? When he and Sam have died in the past, the bringing back to life was either shown or explained. Dean died and came back as a demon because of the mark. The demon was theoretically removed but what process brought Dean back? It it possible that the still unexorcized demon is what's keeping Dean alive as it were, hence the wonky behavior, and if the demon goes, Dean returns to what he was -- dead?

[catrox14]

I really hope it is the demon part that is still lurking. Because all along Crowley (yes I know Crowley) said that the demon would keep Cain alive because he had the power.  I thought curing demon! Dean was way too easy but Jensen has said that was it for demon! Dean at cons but maybe he's trolling us in the best way possible. It never made sense why they kept saying the Mark was killing Dean for not killing but the demon was what kept Cain alive and here Dean has not been killing, was not suffering ill effects but is said to be demon free.....

 

Hmmmmm

Edited December 13, 2014 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

Happytobehere, on 13 Dec 2014 - 3:41 PM, said:

I like this thought, which brings me to my own. Is Dean actually alive? When he and Sam have died in the past, the bringing back to life was either shown or explained. Dean died and came back as a demon because of the mark. The demon was theoretically removed but what process brought Dean back? It it possible that the still unexorcized demon is what's keeping Dean alive as it were, hence the wonky behavior, and if the demon goes, Dean returns to what he was -- dead?

 

I think the Mark overtook Dean here. I'm thinking that since Dean stopped feeding the Mark with all the random kills and violence and seems to be trying to suppress it all together, the Mark is finding it's own way to get what it needs. I think it's still Dean and he's not a demon, but the Mark of Cain is exerting its power over Dean somehow.

Edited December 13, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[Pete Martell]

My understanding is the seasons generally follow our regular calendar year. When Dean got out of Hell in S4, the newspaper he found was dated the day of the premiere September 18, 2008. In The End, which aired on October 1, 2009, Dean tells Future Dean he's from the tail end of 2009 and My Bloody Valentine was supposed to actually be on Valentines Day and the events that happened in Swan Song were in May. 

 

After they did the first time jump in S6, it seems they kept up with one season happening in one calendar year, but they stopped paying attention to what actual year it was. For instance there's a calendar in the background of a scene in You Can't Handle The Truth, which aired October 9, 2009, that says October 2009 instead of 2010 due to the one-year time jump between seasons. in The French Mistake, Sam say's to Ruby "Do you remember all the crazy apocalyptic stuff happening last year", but it should've been two years back because there was a whole year of show we didn't see. Same with Sam telling Samuel Colt he was from 2011 instead of 2012 in Frontierland. If you notice the dates on some of the newspapers and/or the calendars in the backgrounds of scenes, they actually line up with the same day/month the show is airing, but the year is generally wonky anymore due to them not factoring in the time jumps. So I can't count S6 and S7 as only one year together because there's other things telling me they each alone are one year. Same with S8 and S9.

 

So, if Clair was 10 in S4: S5-one year; One-year time jump; S6-one year; S7-one year; One-year time jump; S8-One year; S9-One year; Six-month time jump=8.5 years. Over eighteen by my math. However, I thought the girl was 12 back in S4, but will take SueB's word for it that she was 10 since I don't really recall it that clearly anyway. It's not really all that important in the grand scheme of things, but still is kinda annoying to me. How old are Sam and Dean at this point? What year is it really? I just think if your gonna jump time forward because it's easier than dealing with the mess you made, you shouldn't once again take the easy way out by then ignoring it.

 

 

I didn't think the episode was at all disjointed; I just had no interest in any of the storylines. I just don't care about Crowley and his mommy issues. Nor do I care about Castiel's guilt over Claire and Jimmy at this point, although I was interested in this back in S4 and S5 before Castiel had died once or twice and made the whole thing moot anyway. I care even less about Claire's new family and all their issues. And, to tell you the truth, nothing Sam or Dean did was all that interesting either. I just thought it was downright boring, even if it wasn't the "mid-season finale."

 

Actually, I'd say this season structurally feels more like watching a soap opera--which isn't inherently bad, IMO, just I don't think they have enough story anymore to tell in this format. This structure probably would've worked better back in S6 before they treaded so much territory with Castiel and Crowley; now it just feels like they're filling time to me rather than actually exploring the characters.

 

Didn't Gamble or someone say they had decided to ignore time jumps anyway? I remember this being brought up when Henry said something that suggested they were in 2013.

 

The show stopped seriously caring about continuity sometime during season 4 so I guess I'm not upset as others are.

 

To me SPN has always been a soap. This season feels more like Walking Dead or BSG or the endless, endless final 3-4 seasons of Buffy - lots of internal angst and ponderousness. I just don't know if the show is entirely capable of this type of process. I guess I prefer it to yet another angel war or yet another big conflict of Heaven and Hell that will go nowhere, but I think the show needs more careful crafting to handle some of this shift. I'd also say they need more characters, but that will never, ever happen.

Edited December 14, 2014 by Pete Martell

[DittyDotDot]

Pete Martell, on 13 Dec 2014 - 7:26 PM, said:Pete Martell, on 13 Dec 2014 - 7:26 PM, said:

To me SPN has always been a soap. This season feels more like Walking Dead or BSG or the endless, endless final 3-4 seasons of Buffy - lots of internal angst and ponderousness. I just don't know if the show is entirely capable of this type of process. I guess I prefer it to yet another angel war or yet another big conflict of Heaven and Hell that will go nowhere, but I think the show needs more careful crafting to handle some of this shift. I'd also say they need more characters, but that will never, ever happen.

 

I've thought of SPN as a soap, in terms of writing, only for the last few years--more so since Carver has taken over. But I was more referring to the storytelling structure of the season and not having a big over-reaching arc or big bad they're going after but instead these little personal journeys spanning the episodes. Which, I'm totally cool with, I'm in it for the characters more than the plot anyway. I'm just not particularly interested in Crowley or Castiel's personal journeys they've selected to explore. Crowley's seems rather nonsensical to me and really I've felt like he's superfluous to the show for at least three seasons now--which puts me in such a quandary because I do love Mark Sheppard and sometimes Crowley is the only fun to be had in an episode--so, his mommy issues just aren't landing for me. And, Castiel moping around the countryside trying to atone feels like something I've seen Castiel do more than once already. To be honest, Dean's little personal journey feels like Sam's journey just flopped around and it's ground already treaded once before, so it isn't landing for me either. And this whole notion of who is the real monster isn't particularly new ground for the show either. That's why I said I think this structure could've worked better back in S6, I'm just not sure they have any new ground to explore with some of these characters. Maybe if they had a larger cast it would be better, but I don't know if that'd work either?

 

I really don't know how to make it work for me, all I know is this episode did not feel like Supernatural to me. Which, maybe it's a good thing, maybe Supernatural needs to become something totally new to survive at this point? The curmudgeon in me wants to yell at those damn kids for trampling over my beautiful green lawn and leaving their candy wrappers everywhere; but maybe I just forgot to water my lawn and the candy wrappers were from my own garbage that got knocked over by some raccoons? ;)

Edited December 14, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[Guest]

Gah.  This thread got out of control fast (<<< Totally my fault).  I moved about 50 posts to the All Episodes thread.  Please try to watch which thread you're in when posting.

 

Also remember we have a Speculation Only thread.

 

Thanks!

[NoWillToResist]

So...what was the content of Cas' phone message to Dean and Sam? "Dean, it's me. I have an emergency on my hands and I need your help. Please meet me at Sharkey's in Pontiac, Ohio ASAP." ?? So...Dean and Sam just drove all the way there in no time flat, and never bothered to call Cas for details?

 

I thought Krissy and the actor that played her to be spot on and terrific. She was a snotty teenager too. But the actor brought some depth and nuance to Krissy which I found lacking with Claire 2.0. Even her angst was surfacy I thought.

Upon rewatch I like the episode even less. What I don't understand though about Claire characterization here is her anger with Cas. She was supposedly fine with being Cas vessel and she was not angry with her dad for taking Cas back. So on one hand I suppose they are now telling me that 12 year old Claire didn't have the capacity to consent after all which screws with Cas character in a bad way or Claire wasn't okay with to begin with so Cas did not have consent. Either way it's Cas character assassination IMO. But I suppose he was due since Carver and Co. wreaked havoc on Sam and Dean already.

I find it equally hard to believe that the devoted mother to Claire, who had not left her when Jimmy left with Cas would flip that switch to off a mere four years later when her daughter needed her even more. That is destroying Mama Novak unnecessarily. That was some contrived nonsense the more I think about it.

 

I had read a lot of praise about the actress once the episode aired. When I finally watched it yesterday I was surprised. At first, I thought she was horrible. I think she improved as the episode went on, perhaps because she moved from 'sullen/rebellious' to 'hurt/confused' and she's better at the latter, IMO.

 

I found her anger at Cas completely understandable. If not for him, she'd still have her family.

 

I thought the Amelia explanation was weak as fuck. I do not believe for one second that Amelia, having determined that angels and demons exist - and that her daughter is of an important angelic bloodline - would abandon her daughter. When I'd heard that Claire was going to be brought back, I had seriously hoped that it would be revealed that Amelia was in the nuthouse. But no, this is SPN, so we gotta have abandoned kids.*eye roll*

 

If Cas really feels so bad, why doesn't he just bring the girls father back? We know that angels can drag souls out of hell and put them back into bodies. Cas did that with Dean in the beforetimes, the long long ago (when we still had good writing). Are you really telling me that getting souls out of heaven, where you can walk in and out as you please, since you some weird kind of hero, is so much harder? Oh please.

 

Even if Cas could do that (and I'm not sure that he can, what with angels and heaven being out of whack), it's not fair to Jimmy. How can Cas justify ripping Jimmy out of his much-deserved peace in order to toss him back to crappy Earth? Also, Jimmy's been dead for YEARS. Maybe there's a statue of limitations. Everyone else that Cas has resurrected was very recently deceased, IIRC.

 

I too called foul on Sam leaving the house, getting into the car and sitting there while Dean is left in the house. Dean was armed; there was no reason why he wouldn't have been right behind them. Did Sam think Dean was going to give them a lecture before he left?!? Because he only got worried when noises started coming from the house. He wasn't at all worried that Dean was still in there.

 

I enjoyed the Dean/Cas diner scene; I've missed those quiet moments between them. I appreciate any time Dean is given the opportunity to off-load without judgment. 

 

I have no problem with Dean saying that he loved his father with "everything [he] had". That devotion wasn't earned by John (IMO) but I'm not surprised that Dean has it. What pissed me off was the comment that John always came through for them. Um, no. We have been repeatedly shown the ways in which John was an absent dick of a father. *Dean* was always there for Sam. John was not always there for his boys. Not by a long fucking shot.

 

The scene would have lost NOTHING if Dean had simply ended his reminiscing with "John Winchester wasn't going to win any father of the year awards, but I loved him anyway."

[SueB]

So...Dean and Sam just drove all the way there in no time flat, and never bothered to call Cas for details?

I know. Seems to happen all the time tho. They do the exposition about the case when they arrive in many episodes. Maybe they think exposition is more interesting as they are visually setting up the location as well.

My fanwank for this: Cas gave a cryptic message about needing help and it being an emergency but he couldn't talk. She did take his money so maybe he called in front on the cashier. The boys assumed cosmic problem vice domestic. They've shown Cas doesn't do good phone in the past.

Originally I was kind of pissed at Dean's dismissal of Cas' problem but IRL I remember a recent call from my daughter and she was crying and I'm all panicked as I asked what's wrong. And she said a name. My paranoia was '..is dead' or '...was in an accident' vice the real issue '...and I had a fight'. I chewed her out for poor phone crisis protocol. And THEN I listened to why she was upset.

So, I can see a vague phone call, Sam and Dean racing up there panicked, and then Dean having that reaction.

Edited December 16, 2014 by SueB

[AwesomO4000]

They've shown Cas doesn't do good phone in the past.

 

Heh so true. One of my favorites being "99 Problems" where  Cas' answering service message was all messed up: "Why do you want me to say my name?" then sounds of beep beep blorp ensue before the leave a message beeeep. That got a smile out of Sam. And in addition, your real life example reminded me that Cas tends to have the opposite problem from your daughter (and many teens - I remember what a drama queen I was in those days myself) in that he doesn't tend to have a large range of ordinary situation to catastrophic development voice differentiation, so there isn't usually much clue there. So since with Cas, both mundane and awful things tend to be said in similar - or at least more similar than most people - tone*, I can see where Sam and Dean would think this could be a real emergency only to race on over and find out it wasn't world threatening or catastrophic.

 

* Example: "Hey assbut!" is about as "excited" as Cas' tone seems to get.

Edited December 16, 2014 by AwesomO4000

[Pete Martell]

I have no problem with Dean saying that he loved his father with "everything [he] had". That devotion wasn't earned by John (IMO) but I'm not surprised that Dean has it. What pissed me off was the comment that John always came through for them. Um, no. We have been repeatedly shown the ways in which John was an absent dick of a father. *Dean* was always there for Sam. John was not always there for his boys. Not by a long fucking shot.

 

The scene would have lost NOTHING if Dean had simply ended his reminiscing with "John Winchester wasn't going to win any father of the year awards, but I loved him anyway."

 

We've also been shown that Dean struggles to say how he feels about John, especially in the last few seasons with his emotional health at an all-time low. The show gives out mixed messages about John, but I don't feel like we're supposed to take that scene as John being an awesome dad. I think to Dean, all he can really focus on is the best of John, because he has nothing else left. No identity, no voice. And I'm sure his own self-loathing over not being able to protect Kevin just makes him even more grateful about John.

Edited December 17, 2014 by Pete Martell

[mizkat]

Originally I was kind of pissed at Dean's dismissal of Cas' problem but IRL I remember a recent call from my daughter and she was crying and I'm all panicked as I asked what's wrong. And she said a name. My paranoia was '..is dead' or '...was in an accident' vice the real issue '...and I had a fight'. I chewed her out for poor phone crisis protocol. And THEN I listened to why she was upset.

 

I'm totally using "poor phone crisis protocol" the next time one of my kids do that to me. Which will probably be today. But yeah, I'm with you about first being annoyed that Cas didn't elaborate on what happened on the phone, and then remembering that he doesn't do good phone. 

 

However, that leads to how uneven (and really just plain wrong) the whole issue of Amelia leaving Claire to her own devices when she knows there are monsters, demons, and angels oh my! out there. Even with Cas' poor phone skills, Dean and Sam didn't seem all that concerned. They've shown more concern for saving strangers than they initially did for Jimmy's daughter. That rang really false to me. I get that they are jaded by this time but come on--Claire is at least some semblance of "family" here. It was very OOC for the Winchesters, IMO. 

[DittyDotDot]

I have no problem with Dean saying that he loved his father with "everything [he] had". That devotion wasn't earned by John (IMO) but I'm not surprised that Dean has it. What pissed me off was the comment that John always came through for them. Um, no. We have been repeatedly shown the ways in which John was an absent dick of a father. *Dean* was always there for Sam. John was not always there for his boys. Not by a long fucking shot.

 

I agree there's plenty of times John was absent, but I also buy there were times when he probably did come through for them too. I think Dean just chooses to remember the few times he did over the multitude of times he didn't. For me, the scene didn't feel off because I don't believe the story, I just feel like the performances didn't work for me (which is something I rarely say about this show). Dean seemed weirdly disconnected from the story, like it was a typical Tuesday or something and held no real import to him--which maybe it didn't, but in the context of the scene I thought it was supposed to. But, mostly I don't buy Sam being so nostalgic about it. Sam usually remembers the times John let them down more than the times he came through for them, so I just thought is was weird how into it he was.

 

 

 

I had read a lot of praise about the actress once the episode aired. When I finally watched it yesterday I was surprised. At first, I thought she was I thought the Amelia explanation was weak as fuck. I do not believe for one second that Amelia, having determined that angels and demons exist - and that her daughter is of an important angelic bloodline - would abandon her daughter. When I'd heard that Claire was going to be brought back, I had seriously hoped that it would be revealed that Amelia was in the nuthouse. But no, this is SPN, so we gotta have abandoned kids.*eye roll*

 

I think Claire's supposed to be in the next one too, so maybe they'll answer the Amelia stuff better then. But yeah, with what they learned back in S4, it seems there should of been more of a through line with this. I think it would've been more interesting if Claire had been a couple years older rather than a teen. I would've loved if she had taken the knowledge she gained of the supernatural and used it to her advantage--maybe be a Bela-like character--because of her abandonment rather than the typical wayward teen needing a parent.

[rue721]

For me, the scene didn't feel off because I don't believe the story, I just feel like the performances didn't work for me (which is something I rarely say about this show). Dean seemed weirdly disconnected from the story, like it was a typical Tuesday or something and held no real import to him--which maybe it didn't, but in the context of the scene I thought it was supposed to. But, mostly I don't buy Sam being so nostalgic about it. Sam usually remembers the times John let them down more than the times he came through for them, so I just thought is was weird how into it he was.

 

I didn't think that Sam was being nostalgic, I think that he was excited and encouraging Dean to talk about John and tell a sweet/nice story like that because he knows that telling that story is something that's "in character" for his brother. He was trying to get Dean to act like *Dean,* to try and convince/reassure himself that his brother is OK and himself, imo. I think of things like Sam telling Dean to tell the NYC story as Sam sort of stage-whispering to Dean what his lines should be in order to give a more convincing performance of "Dean Winchester." That's why I think that on the one hand, we're supposed to be seeing what Sam is also seeing -- that Dean is *not* acting like himself -- but on the other hand, hoping/trying to find ways to believe that this OTT and "off" feeling is just in our heads and that he really is feeling more like himself, like he said in the previous episode.

 

At the beginning of the bar scene, Cas says something about how Claire was right to be mad, and Dean says that of course it didn't help that Cas was wearing her dead father's "meatsuit" -- Sam looks at him in that worried/WTF?! way he does. I didn't think that line was actually all that unusual for Dean, but judging by Sam's reaction, I think it was supposed to come off wrong. So then, when Cas asks Dean if Dean loved John a minute or so later, Sam looked like he was really hoping to see Dean acting "normal," imo because he wants to reassure himself again that Dean's OK. But instead of acting "normal," Dean takes that long, awkward pause before he answers Cas, and the camera goes to Sam, looking (imo) like he's on pins and needles wondering what Dean is going to say, and it's not until Dean finally glances over at Sam that he *then* tells Cas, "with everything I had" (albeit in that disconcertingly nonchalant way). Sam is the one who then confirms that people love their fathers, tries to get the NYC story going, tries to keep the mood light around the story, etc. I don't think that's because the story itself means a lot to him, but I think that it meant a lot to him to see Dean acting like Dean, and he was trying to convince himself that the whole thing was as normal as possible. Sort of overdoing it himself in order to force things to go "right"/"normally"?

 

Anyway, I think that the scene works in terms of the performances in the sense that I think Dean is very cold and checked-out throughout because he's *not* himself and is doing a poor job of faking it, over-doing it sometimes and seeing too indifferent sometimes, and in response to Dean being so "off," Sam is overcompensating for Dean's weirdness by trying (too hard) to act like Dean is OK/normal/himself (because that's what he's trying to make himself believe, too) and even is giving Dean some stage-whispers/guidance in order to make things work.

 

You know how if someone is suffering from a problem like dementia, the rest of the person's family often unconsciously tries to compensate for them in order to keep from having to see how much they've/their abilities have changed? I think how Sam is responding is sort of like that. And I think Dean knows that he's doing it and is letting Sam's responses guide him into acting more like "himself." I don't think he's actually a demon, and this is some manipulation, because I don't think that a demon would be having flashbacks, but he's also not really himself.

[DittyDotDot]

I didn't think that Sam was being nostalgic

 

I got the nostalgic vibe from how he said "tell him about the time..." and then as Dean was telling the story he was kinda wistfully nodding along. It just felt like he was really enjoying the reminiscing, where in the past he's generally taken the position of their childhoods not being "exactly Hallmark moments" to him. Again, it's not like I don't buy it or understand what they were trying to do with it, I just thought it was wonky. Makes me wonder what was changed about the scene.

 

 

I don't think he's actually a demon, and this is some manipulation, because I don't think that a demon would be having flashbacks, but he's also not really himself.

 

I don't think he's a demon either, but knows he's not the same and something's wrong. I think its akin to how Soulless Sam tried to imitate regular-recipe Sam, but for different reasons. I don't think Dean is "pretending" to be regular-recipe Dean to keep up appearances, but he wants to believe he is regular-recipe Dean. He's overcompensating. That's mainly why I found the performance off in the John story scene, most of the episode was him trying too hard to "be" Dean, but that scene seemed like he didn't have any connection to the memory. I don't know, maybe the disconnect makes sense too, but somehow it just didn't land for me.

[catrox14]

"I don't think he's actually a demon, and this is some manipulation, because I don't think that a demon would be having flashbacks, but he's also not really himself."

 

The difference is that the demon Dean IS Dean. It was his physical body and physical brain memories. IMO the flashbacks or premonitions would absolutely be part of regular! Dean and demon! Dean because it is the same person not a possession of a meatsuit. That's why he could readily go after everything about there lives in soul survivor.

I do t know if that was Dean or DemonDean or a forever new hybrid but I could see where if it is DemonDean he is trying g to play the part for whatever reason his end game might be. I could see the nonchalant as being very demon Dean Then he sees Sam and realizes if he wants to keep under the radar he has to react looking at Sam cues. I don't know if I 100% believe it's demon Dean but I can make a case for it. I or its regular Dean fighting to keep demon Dean at bay and maybe the John story reflected that internal struggle.

[rue721]

I got the nostalgic vibe from how he said "tell him about the time..." and then as Dean was telling the story he was kinda wistfully nodding along. It just felt like he was really enjoying the reminiscing, where in the past he's generally taken the position of their childhoods not being "exactly Hallmark moments" to him. Again, it's not like I don't buy it or understand what they were trying to do with it, I just thought it was wonky. Makes me wonder what was changed about the scene.

 

I think that if Sam was nostalgic, though, that the nostalgia was for *Dean,* not for the events of the story. I think Sam told Dean to repeat the NYC story not because Sam cared about that story particularly, but because he knew that *Dean* would (have) told that story at that time. It was his way of trying to keep up the polite fiction that Dean was "himself," imo. But YMMV. The whole scene was extraordinarily off-putting imo, but I think that was on purpose.

 

The performances worked for me in that the Winchesters' behavior did seem off-kilter to me in a way that made sense in the grander scheme of "Dean is not himself, but he and Sam are both trying *really hard* to convince himself that he is, for their own peace of mind." IA that this scene was peculiar in that Dean had been over- rather than underplaying things in the rest of the episode. But Regular!Dean is basically obsessed with John, so I think that actually, Dean overplaying things in this scene would have seemed too reassuringly normal. YMMV, of course.

 

I *did* think the scene fell flat, but I think that what doomed it was that the whole episode felt very un-SPN, and the NYC story itself felt very un-SPN, so this scene and the way that the story was told ended up feeling more like just yet another un-SPN moment in an un-SPN scene in an episode with piles of un-SPN moments and scenes.

 

The thing that just killed me about the story was that there is a 0% chance, I'm sorry, that after John had discovered Dean missing in the middle of the night, hunted him down (!!!), scared the shit out of whoever was manning the door at CBGB (ffs!) in order to get inside and then scared the shit out of everyone in the club to the point that they were silent except when calling him "sir," that once he finally yanked Dean's drunk, teenaged ass outside that Dean was going to say a damn WORD. And this was on a *vacation* that the boys had apparently begged John take them on and during which he'd spoiled them rotten by going full-tilt with the touristy stuff?! Yikes. I can handwave so so so many things. Dean becoming a demon? Fine. Cas the grace-vampire angel/BFF saying he never knew his father, aka God Almighty? Fine. But I cannot believe for a second that Dean Winchester would have told John Winchester "you embarrassed me" or "I hate you" in that situation. NOPE. That just strains credulity to the point that I can no longer suspend my disbelief. I thought the *idea* of the story was nice. It's nice to think of a parent being there for you when you get in over your head or looking out for you even if you don't know you need it. But that particular story, especially that Dawn Summers ending of Dean throwing a tantrum, was just ridiculous to me. I'll go with it because I'm sure it was supposed to be believable, but tbh it does make me roll my eyes.

 

Frankly, I also thought it was strange that Dean even said that John wasn't going to win father of the year and that he just drank his whiskey after telling the story without raising the glass or anything to John. Not because John was so awesome, or because Dean would be thinking he was so awesome, but because it seemed disrespectful, and who's even disrespectful of his own dead father? Especially right before or after telling a nice story about him or when talking to a friend who never knew him? Idk, I'm not sure what about it seemed so disrespectful to me, but there was something especially about how right after the story, Dean was blank-faced and just downed his whiskey without raising his glass or giving Sam a nod or anything, that really felt *wrong.*

 

The difference is that the demon Dean IS Dean. It was his physical body and physical brain memories. IMO the flashbacks or premonitions would absolutely be part of regular! Dean and demon! Dean because it is the same person not a possession of a meatsuit. That's why he could readily go after everything about there lives in soul survivor.

I do t know if that was Dean or DemonDean or a forever new hybrid but I could see where if it is DemonDean he is trying g to play the part for whatever reason his end game might be. I could see the nonchalant as being very demon Dean Then he sees Sam and realizes if he wants to keep under the radar he has to react looking at Sam cues. I don't know if I 100% believe it's demon Dean but I can make a case for it. I or its regular Dean fighting to keep demon Dean at bay and maybe the John story reflected that internal struggle.

 

IA, he seemed more like his nonchalant demon self in that bar scene than like his actual self, and he definitely was looking to Sam for clues as to how to behave. But I think he's also still got some humanity in him, because I did believe him at the end when he was so freaked out by the massacre he'd just done. I didn't think that was an act, and that's not how a demon would behave. Also, I think he did too good a job, by and large, of being nice to Sam for it to have been entirely an act. I can't imagine that a demon wouldn't try to get at least some digs in, you know?

 

I disagree that demon!Dean *is* Dean, though. It's his soul that's corrupted and his body that's being walked around, but it's not *him.* A demon is a fundamentally different being than a human imo. I don't think that a demon would be haunted by violence like a human being would, even if the demon has the same memories of that violence as a human being does.

[NoWillToResist]

 Even with Cas' poor phone skills, Dean and Sam didn't seem all that concerned. They've shown more concern for saving strangers than they initially did for Jimmy's daughter. That rang really false to me. I get that they are jaded by this time but come on--Claire is at least some semblance of "family" here. It was very OOC for the Winchesters, IMO. 

 

Yeah, I was ok with them initially dismissing Claire as 'some chick' until I realized that THEY KNEW IT WAS CLAIRE. At that point, I was all WTF? Since when would they not give a shit about a young girl, traumatized by the clusterfuck that is her life due to angels - and specifically Cas??

 

And it's not like Dean and Sam had never met her when shit went down either. So, their lack of motivation/interest/caring when they turned up was very glaring and OOC to me.

[Pete Martell]

Sam and Dean had little to no ties to any of that...Sam was hopped up on demon blood and barely cognizant, and Dean seemed more upset at the time about losing Cas than about everything else. I think mentally they don't allow themselves to feel those types of emotions for anyone but a select few.

[SueB]

I re-watched today and was stuck by something.... Dean needs a Dad.  I say this because the shelter lady was telling Cas that Claire doesn't need a friend, she needs a Dad. And then they immediately cut to Dean acting like a little kid laughing about the Three Stooges.  First viewings I was struck by how OTT Dean felt in those scenes.  But when you watch the cut, it sure seems like the message is that Dean needs a Dad.

 

And then Sam comes in and brings him a sandwich.  But... with this "Dad" thought in mind...all I could think of what that Sam has never had the "Dad" instinct.  He's very compassionate and can relate to people but he doesn't do the Dad thing like Dean does.  And then throughout the episode, we've got Dean STILL doing Dad-like things.  He tells Cas to kill him if it gets out of control because Sam can't.  He tells the John Winchester story to help Cas find his "Dad" mojo. 

 

I know we've talked about role reversal, and this is a riff on this theme. But I don't know if Sam could actually step up to a Dad role with Dean.  I think that would be like changing the gravitational constant of the universe or something.

[AwesomO4000]

I know we've talked about role reversal, and this is a riff on this theme. But I don't know if Sam could actually step up to a Dad role with Dean.  I think that would be like changing the gravitational constant of the universe or something.

 

I agree, and I don't know if that's necessarily a bad thing. Some people just aren't dad material, and there's nothing wrong with that, especially if they know this and so don't have kids. It isn't like Sam hasn't tried to give Dean fatherly-type advice before - I'd say some of what he was trying to convey to Dean in season 7 qualifies - but just as Sam isn't well-equipped to give it, in my opinion, Dean isn't equipped to receive it either. We saw that as early as season 2 with Dean's (paraphrase) "I can't tell any of this to Sammy. I can't let him see this." even though that is exactly what Sam was asking for - for Dean to show him that he needed to talk about it and they could grieve together.

 

Unfortunately, I'm afraid this is foreshadowing  that it's all just going to set Sam up as being a big failure to help Dean (yet again) when sometimes it's not even his fault (sometimes it is :: grumble grumble:: Season 8  :: grumble grumble ::). Sometimes it annoys me how the show sets up how epic and important it is for one brother to be "saved" by the other, but then they have Sam fail at it almost every time. If this turns out to be another "Dean needs help and Sam fails to give it" situation, I'll be annoyed.

[rue721]

I re-watched today and was stuck by something.... Dean needs a Dad.  I say this because the shelter lady was telling Cas that Claire doesn't need a friend, she needs a Dad. And then they immediately cut to Dean acting like a little kid laughing about the Three Stooges.  First viewings I was struck by how OTT Dean felt in those scenes.  But when you watch the cut, it sure seems like the message is that Dean needs a Dad.

 

And then Sam comes in and brings him a sandwich.  But... with this "Dad" thought in mind...all I could think of what that Sam has never had the "Dad" instinct.  He's very compassionate and can relate to people but he doesn't do the Dad thing like Dean does.  And then throughout the episode, we've got Dean STILL doing Dad-like things.  He tells Cas to kill him if it gets out of control because Sam can't.  He tells the John Winchester story to help Cas find his "Dad" mojo. 

 

I know we've talked about role reversal, and this is a riff on this theme. But I don't know if Sam could actually step up to a Dad role with Dean.  I think that would be like changing the gravitational constant of the universe or something.

 

What does "Dad" or "a Dad role" mean in this context? Sorry, I know that's an extremely broad question. I'm having trouble understanding what Sam taking a Dad role or Dean needing a Dad right now means. What would a "Dad" be doing or what would Dean want from a "Dad" right now or what is Sam doing that's not Dad-like, etc?

 

Sam went and picked up Dean in that bar, Dean was a total nightmare (because he was a demon, so natch), and ended up curing him. It seems like he did almost exactly what John did for Dean in that CBGB story? Not that I think that Sam seemed like a "Dad" or like John in particular or something when he did that...I guess I'm not understanding the larger "Dad" context altogether.

[SueB]

You're right. Sam DID act like a Dad in that moment.  And the month he spent looking for him was the same.  What Dad-like thing Sam did was do what was right for Dean, even if Demon!Dean said "no".  Because Dean was impaired and Sam used his judgement.

 

But since they've gotten back to work, Sam's cautious but he's relaxed just a bit -- and the MoC egged Dean on to slip the leash.  Now please do not think that I believe Sam is responsible for the massacre.  That's still on Dean.  But they need to treat Dean like a ticking bomb at this point.  And maybe if the situation had been reversed, Dean would have relaxed at that point too.  All I know is that I think Sam still sees Dean as his brother and it's not instinctual for him to lay down the rules.  Dean needs that now.

 

So...what made me say this in the first place was how they cut the scene.  From Sandy saying Claire didn't need a friend, she needed a Dad.  Then they cut to Dean laughing like a 12 year old and sharing the moment with Sam.  Dean continued to act kinda childish the whole episode (Sam gave him a "Dude!" when he insulted him and looked at him funny when he was chowing on a hotdog).  But he should have been the last to leave the house.  He fell back into the old pattern of Dean covering HIS back.  As the "Dad", he'd have been the last out of the house.  That's just the instinctual thing to do. 

 

Now I don't think they are necessarily going to put this subtext into text, but this is what I observed. 

[DittyDotDot]

Yeah, Sam's gonna need to take that seat behind the wheel more. Even when Dean's been down, he's generally drove the car since somewhere in S2--both literally and metaphorically. Its not only that Sam needs to step into a different role, but Dean's also gonna need to allow Sam to drive. It's really hard to change up patterns that have been long established for so many years. I think they both are going to have to make adjustments and I'm betting that's what a lot of the disagreements Carver eluded to is coming from.