Unpopular Opinions: All Alone in Purgatory

[vanarnd1]

Now for the really unpopular opinion. Since I'm truly fed up with everything and anything Ichy... While I expect the partnership between the Witnesses to be the main relationship, I hope they put his personal life on hold for most part of next season and focus on Abbie's life out of work, including friends and boyfriends. Anyone that is not her partner, who has been sucking the life out of her, since he was resurrected. I don't care how small those moments are or that they don't happen every episode, it's time to give her, what she has been denied so far.

I would add to this that whatever direction the show goes in terms of a new evil for the witnesses to fight against, I hope it is not heavily focused on Ichabod. It was not a great look in "Magnum Opus" when Crane was going on about his destiny and how he was conflicted in his role as a witness and Abbie had to give him a pep talk, in the same episode where she discovered her ancestors had died as part of the battle. It is really important IMO that the witnesses are shown to be of equal importance and it would be nice to see in Season 3 Abbie receive the support from Ichabod that she gave him last season

[jhlipton]

 it would be nice to see in Season 3 Abbie receive the support from Ichabod that she gave him last season

I think it will be more than "nice",; it will be critical.

[DearEvette]

AS much as I like Orlando Jones as an engaged member of the show/fandom, I am not feeling doomy/gloomy about him leaving.  I like the dynamic of Team WTF and wish he was still there, but I don't think the show will truly suffer from him not being there.  Honestly I feel that Abbie & Ichabod are the only two really indispensable characters.

[HalcyonDays]

AS much as I like Orlando Jones as an engaged member of the show/fandom, I am not feeling doomy/gloomy about him leaving.  I like the dynamic of Team WTF and wish he was still there, but I don't think the show will truly suffer from him not being there.  Honestly I feel that Abbie & Ichabod are the only two really indispensable characters.

 

I agree. It would have been nice to have the four of them as a team, and give a chance for Irving and Crane to bond and redeem the mess they made of his storyline, but it's okay. Orlando's going off to bigger and better things and the core of the show is Abbie and Crane, so it will be okay. I am assuming Reyes will be featured more. For all we know, we might see more Calvin Riggs or another character might be introduced and fit well with everyone else.

[Happytobehere]

I don't want Calvin back, much like Hawley and the one who must never again be named, his sole purpose would be to be a potential love interest. While I am ambivalent about a Crane/Mills romantic pairing, if there is to be another romantic pairing on the show, I want it to be one that evolves naturally, rather than one that is spoon fed to us.

[netlyon2]

Okay, here goes (and it's gonna be a long one):

 

Based on curiosity about the new showrunner and positive comments  from forum members, I decided to check out "The Glades" to get a feel for Clifton Campbell.  While I generally like the show, I am struggling to get through the third season because I am just exhausted by the almost unrelenting male gaze.  And I'm worried that this male gaze is going to find its way into Sleepy Hollow. 

 

Now, judging from the April segment of this discussion, it seems that many posters don't have a problem with male gaze or see it as a thing that is bothersome or detrimental to a show.  If you'll indulge me, I'd like to work through my issues by explaining why it bothers me so much in "The Glades" and why I worry about it showing up in "Sleepy Hollow."

 

There are people who complain about "the male gaze" -- apparently, it's news that men like T&A.  But one thing I've found is that there is a "female gaze" which is somewhat different from the male gaze.  First, many women do like looking at the bare chests of men they find attractive.  Second, women are far more likely to be attracted to an image of a man who dresses well.  I see a lot of comments from women on how great ab actor looks in this suit, or that costume.  I find this very interesting.

Sure, adults like to look at the body parts of other adults whom they find sexually attractive; that's not news to anyone.  When people talk about "male gaze," the concern is about being forced to see other people (almost always women) through a largely (heterosexual) male point of view that almost always objectifies them.  It feels like I'm being forced to see the world through the eyes of a person (generally heterosexual man) who cannot see a woman without staring at her body, regardless of who she is or the nature of their interaction.  I know the almost-automatic response to this is something along the lines of "Boys will be boys" or "That's just how guys are," and those responses may well be true.  However, I have no interest in viewing the world from that perspective.  Unfortunately, since the male perspective is still dominant in our storytelling, that male gaze is still prevalent in many shows.  Here are some ways that this happens in "The Glades":

 

1) The Lingering Camera:  Nearly every female character, from series regular to random extra, is subject to a scene where the camera lingers on her body, sizing up her level of sexual attractiveness.  It feels pretty gross.  Having watched through the 3rd episode of the 3rd season, I'm pretty sure that the only exceptions have been the main character's boss, the women at a senior citizens home, perhaps some nurses at the hospital, and a couple (but not all) of female residents of the "Freak Town" (think this season of American Horror Story).  Notice this list of exceptions does not include women who are dead or dying; I can think of a couple of female cadavers (starting with the Season One opening credits) that get a fondling camera pan up their scantily-clad (and also dead) bodies.  Yup, gross.

 

2) The Bikini'd Extras:  So, the bikini is the symbol of Florida, sure.  And all of the women in Florida are size 2 hotties, yeah.  Even so, the constant random insertion of bikini-clad women is kind of ridiculous; it's a classic case of women as background decoration.  I'd wager that at least half of the location-establishing shots are of a scantily-clad woman, usually starting on her legs, butt, or chest and expanding out to include the rest of the scene.  I'm not even just talking about beach locations; the last episode that I attempted to watch had a coed in a bikini top and unbuttoned booty shorts skipping around a college campus.  Of course, the camera let us linger over her assets before moving on to ogle the lab partner of a series regular.  The camera often gets distracted during conversations (presumably like the male characters) and wanders over to whatever collection of uncovered body parts happens to be nearby.

 

The post-Season One opening credits include four people, three main characters and--you guessed it--a random woman in a bikini who has nothing to do with anything.  I guess I should be glad that she gets to be alive, unlike her Season One counterpart.

 

Oh, and it should go without saying that there are apparently three female extras for every male.  And all of those male extras are in baggy, knee-length swimming trunks as befits their manliness.  I promise that they're there; you just have to search for them.  The camera won't help you, though; it has no use for their boy-parts.

 

3) It's Not Just The Extras:  Even the female characters who have names, lines, and importance to the plot are subject to the camera's/male characters' attentions.  It's often written into the plot; that gorgeous ornithologist just loves surfing at sunrise and the law-enforcement bureau chief is so hot that the main male characters have to ogle her in every. single. scene. while being reminded of her rank by their boss.  My personal favorite was the ambitious, effective Illinois cop who chased a serial killer down to Florida . . . then promptly

revealed that she still had a thing for the main character and managed to get damselled by the killer, while wearing a bikini by the pool,

natch.  This never happens with the male characters, even the rare one whose attractiveness is a plot point.  Romantic rival for the love interest's affections?  Scuzzy ex-con husband or McDreamy-style doctor who is shown fully-dressed with lab coat or fully-dressed without it.  Occasionally the protagonist is presented in a sexual manner (usually by taking his shirt off), but the camera shifts into a neutral perspective on that rare occasion: no lingering, panning up/down his body, or wandering back to the magnetic lure of his bare flesh.

 

Now, I can admit that my little list may sound nit-picky; in fact, it took me a while to even figure out what was bothering me about the show.  Once I realized what it was, though, I couldn't ignore the male gaze that saturated every single episode.  Then, it felt almost suffocating.  I really don't want that for "Sleepy Hollow," not to any extent.  Logically, I know that there are plenty of reasons why it probably won't happen (1-it's not the tone of the show; 2-the show's protagonist is female; 3-Ichabod is more likely to turn away from a scantily-clad woman than to stare at her ad nauseum; 4-Katrina's heaving bosom has finally found a better place).  However, given the tomfoolery that occurred when that one writer miraculously discovered that Lyndie Greenwood is sexually attractive (which appears to be unclear when she is wearing pants), I do worry about how things might change if Abbie does get a love interest, for example.  It would get really old really fast if Abbie's badass moments were undercut by the camera lingering on her rear end, no matter how excellent that rear end is.

 

For the record, I ogled Mison and Jones every chance I got, but I didn't need the camera to facilitate it. 

[jhlipton]

I don't object to "male gaze" in general, but as beautiful as Beharie and Greenwood are, I sincerely hope it don't happen here.  It seems unlikely, not just for the reason you mention, but catering to the male gaze in New England, especially in outdoor scenes, is a lot harder than it is in Florida.  Brrrrr!

Edited May 18, 2015 by jhlipton

[DeLurker]

I only watched the first season of The Glades and did not notice the level of "male gaze" netlyon2 is talking about.  Not saying it wasn't there, just it was not particularly noticeable to me.

 

Grew up in South Florida and spent a lot of time at the beach and beachside or waterfront bars.  It wasn't uncommon for my friends and I to be in bikinis with a tshirt/tank shirt/mid drift shirt thrown over it and a pair of shorts.  This was when dinosaurs roamed the earth, so booty shorts weren't in style.  We weren't wearing anything shocking - it was kind of the norm.  By contrast, when we went to Pittsburgh for a wedding and wore our normal going out duds for Miami/Ft Lauderdale, we looked like total tramps in the sea of khakis, polos and plaid (both men and women) at the nightclubs/bars we went to.

 

And I went to UF and was known to make an appearance in class with a pair of shorts and a tank shirt thrown on over my bikini.

 

So for me, The Glades struck me as being reflective of what you actually would see in Florida.   I don't find the presence or focus on women's bodies in The Glades to raise redflags.  But it'll be interesting to see how things play out.

[netlyon2]

DeLurker, I went to college in Florida (okay, Tallahassee, but still), so I know what you mean.  Like I said, it took me a while to even realize what was bugging me about the show.  Once I realized what it was, though, I could no longer not see it, if that makes sense.  Then, thinking, "Well, they are in Florida, duh!" is what got me paying attention to the gender composition of extras, etc.  I even made it through another season and a half, before the foolery broke me.

 

jhlipton, you've given me some new hope. 

Edited May 19, 2015 by netlyon2

[Iamsweetdee]

I thought the characters of The Glades sucked for the most part.  The romantic male lead was an obnoxious cop that didn't engage in any investigative work. He just made declarations and accused people. Seriously, he would run around for 40 minutes accusing folks and then pull then the culprit, because the script said so and the show was ending, would confess. The romantic female lead was just an idiot. Now, it wasn't helped that she was played by an actress that kind of makes Piper Perabo look like a true thespian, but I digress. Her character started a romantic relationship but conveniently forgot to disclose that she was married. It went down hill from there. I guess the secondary characters were pretty good. So I guess my unpopular opinion is that the hiring of this guy only looks good cause of the shit that came before.   He'll probably just deliver a different brand, but same shit.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Iamsweetdee

[jhlipton]

He'll probably just deliver a different brand, but same shit.

 

NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!  LA LA LA LA LA -- I can't hear you!

[AmandaPanda]

Let's get back on topic, please.

[phoenics]

I really think the show airing against Scandal will be its death knell. Fox is stupid.

[Criminey]

I debated, which thread but this seems to be an unpopular opinion from what I see across the Tubes. I'm looking forward to S3. I.m looking forward to Icabbie whether it comes down to witty conversation, a few drinks at the bar, taking car of apocalypse business or end game with the 2 of them together

I think Betsy Ross is not going to be such a factor as to distract from the relationship between ichabod and Abbie in the present. Wasn't she the one that had him hiding in closets to avoid her?

I like flashbacks. I think 1781 ichabod is a very sexy guy. Some combination of 1781 and present day Ichabod would be perfect.

Abbie Mills (Nicole Beharie) is a very beautiful woman. She will hold her own against any Ichabod interlopers.

I know all depends on the writers and the showrunner

Well, I hit reply by mistake before I was done. But the crew on this show are not stupid. Nicole and Tom are the draw.

I agree that the cross over with Bones is a dumb idea. I think Fox should have picked up "Forever" from ABC and then done a crossover.

[HalcyonDays]

I debated, which thread but this seems to be an unpopular opinion from what I see across the Tubes. I'm looking forward to S3. I.m looking forward to Icabbie whether it comes down to witty conversation, a few drinks at the bar, taking car of apocalypse business or end game with the 2 of them together

I think Betsy Ross is not going to be such a factor as to distract from the relationship between ichabod and Abbie in the present. Wasn't she the one that had him hiding in closets to avoid her?

I like flashbacks. I think 1781 ichabod is a very sexy guy. Some combination of 1781 and present day Ichabod would be perfect.

Abbie Mills (Nicole Beharie) is a very beautiful woman. She will hold her own against any Ichabod interlopers.

I know all depends on the writers and the showrunner

Well, I hit reply by mistake before I was done. But the crew on this show are not stupid. Nicole and Tom are the draw.

I agree that the cross over with Bones is a dumb idea. I think Fox should have picked up "Forever" from ABC and then done a crossover.

 

 

God, I love this post, Criminey. Nicely done. I completely agree too. It's all going to be fine.

 

Yeah, I remembered but people forgot that he hid from her - so why was she chasing him (I am sure it wasn't because she was in love. It will be a completely different reason I bet) .

 

Same with the cross-over. I loved Forever, thought is was an amazing show and a cross-over would have been gold. Forever or X-Files. That would have been amazing. Don't know Bones, but it's been on a while, so it could be good. All depends on how its handled.

[cynic]

I feel terrible for Orlando Jones now that we know that he was fired. I hate that he lost his job, especially since he was such a huge champion of the show.

BUT, I'm not particularly going to miss his character. He was fine, but I think he should have stayed more in the background (a la Skinner) instead of being given so much prominence. The stuff with his family really dragged and once they moved away from focusing on the precinct and the other cops (which I think was another mistake), he no longer fit seamlessly into the plots.

[Blackhoney]

What makes you all assume the show will stick to the version of Betsy Ross mentioned in previous episodes? I surely don't think they will. Betty's only link is to Ichabod and it will be Ichabod whose hip she will be attached to. They could have brought in a neutral woman to lead or advise the witnesses, but nope, they have specifically brought in someone attached to Crane romantically for a reason. Expect that itch to be all up in the mix and in modern times. There is no way she's a show regular but will only be featured in the past. She's going to play a very big role in the show from here on out. Very big.

[HalcyonDays]

What makes you all assume the show will stick to the version of Betsy Ross mentioned in previous episodes? I surely don't think they will. Betty's only link is to Ichabod and it will be Ichabod whose hip she will be attached to. They could have brought in a neutral woman to lead or advise the witnesses, but nope, they have specifically brought in someone attached to Crane romantically for a reason. Expect that itch to be all up in the mix and in modern times. There is no way she's a show regular but will only be featured in the past. She's going to play a very big role in the show from here on out. Very big.

 

Good point, so I reread through the Betsy Ross announcements again, and just wanted to point out three things:

 

#1) It is never mentioned in any of the announcements that Betsy Ross is Crane's ex, or former girlfriend or that they ever dated.

 

#2) They used those character descriptions (Jolie, not Martha) to basically indicate that she's not going to be a dowdy frumpy homemaker type person (duh, it's Hollywood and yes I know, Martha isn't a frump)

 

#3). The Mr/Mrs Smith reference. I haven't seen the movie but know the premise. The movie isn't about two people (who happened to be married) spying together and banging each other while doing it. It's about two people who don't know the other works as a hired assassin (for SH, replace assassin with spy). The movie consists of the two characters hired to try to KILL each other. When you combine it with the whole honeypot comment, it tells me that Betsy Ross going to be portrayed leading a double life (as will Crane). Sweet demure flag-sewer by day, deadly cunning spy at night. In flashbacks, Betsy Ross could be working for the opposite side as Crane, or working against each other.

 

So you are right re: the bolded part. Who says they will stick with the "Crane dated Betsy Ross" quip from season 1. They may just know each, or associate in public, but I would bank on ulterior motives for their interactions for undercover spying reasons.

 

So my Unpopular Opinion is that I will wait and see how this character fits into the SH world and give Cliff and company a chance in October. Because right now, I just don't know.

[cynic]

Who knows what goes on in the minds of Fox promo monkeys. Their description could mean several different things and no matter what they mean, the execution could be very different.

FWIW, Mr. & Mrs. Smith is one of my favorite guilty pleasures. It's a totally ridiculous, but fun movie. Pitt/Jolie have crazy chemistry and Pitt shows some nice comedic chops. I would characterize the plot a little differently though. I'd say the movie is ultimately about their marriage (or really a metaphor about marriage in general). They're a couple of expert assassins who fall in love in extraordinary circumstances, but without knowing each others' real life. The lies and dullness of their fake suburban domesticity almost kills their marriage and then they're hired to kill each other.

And they try for a bit (and release their pent up bitterness, think the fights with your spouse are bad?) despite their underlying feelings, but ultimately their love wins out and they end up working together as an amazing team against the people who wanted them dead. With the secrets out and able to be their true selves with each other, they end the movie with a stronger and happier marriage.

Still, the promo people could mean anything. They could take certain characteristics, the select portions of the plot, the general relationship dynamic, etc., Who knows.

Edited July 19, 2015 by cynic

[Criminey]

What makes you all assume the show will stick to the version of Betsy Ross mentioned in previous episodes? I surely don't think they will. Betty's only link is to Ichabod and it will be Ichabod whose hip she will be attached to. They could have brought in a neutral woman to lead or advise the witnesses, but nope, they have specifically brought in someone attached to Crane romantically for a reason. Expect that itch to be all up in the mix and in modern times. There is no way she's a show regular but will only be featured in the past. She's going to play a very big role in the show from here on out. Very big.

Yes it's a Good point. I don't have any knowledge that it won't work this way. But for me at least it doesn't make any sense to put her in modern times.

It's one thing to throw in a fictional character into history like Crane and Katrina and bring them to present time and another to bring a real live person forward. Ross was married 3 times, widowed and had several children. Is she going to use the Grimoire to flip back and forth thru the centuries to mourn her husbands, romance Crane, find a new husband, in between having 5 or 6 children (and losing some of them unfortunately) .... Anything's possible. The whole 'screwing up history for ever' thing is in play here.

Is the new crew going to be just like the old crew -- inconsistent storylines, sidelining Abbie and Jenny, bringing in random men for the sisters to have a relationship with. Maybe. I don't know. But it seems highly unlikely considering the putrid drama of S2 , the steady loss of viewers, and the fact that high level executives had to step in.

It's an undisputable fictional fact that Crane had a fling with Ross and at some point began hiding from her. I think the comedic value of that would be worth showing.

There was also something I read that implied that the real Ross may well have been involved in some of the Intrige. Even more intriguing is the story that when her body was being exhumed to move it from one burial site to another, there were no bones found in the grave. But they found them in another grave nearby.....or something like that. Can't remember exactly.

My opinion is based on the story I want to see, based on absolutely nothing except common sense which says we won't see a story line similar to S2.

I want to see Demon fighting, Humor, Abbie & Ichabod in whatever close relationship evolves. And a darn good show that keeps me entertained and wanting more.

If I get the same nonsense I saw last year, then I'm out. But I have to watch it first.

[DJG1122]

Not sure where to put this, but I've been thinking.....

 

Ever known two people who are the very best of friends and closely bonded, who are attracted to each other but neither is aware of the attraction? They may even be in serious relationships with other people. Outsiders can see the attraction, but they aren't aware of it and may never act on it. Wonder if this is where CC & Company are going with this? The Ichabbie shippers will still see the attraction. The non-shippers will see the attraction but also the relationships with other people. The anti-shippers will deliberately not see the attraction and be delighted with the relationships with other people. Tom and Nicole can truthfully, straightfacedly say there is no Ichabbie and the writer's room can pat themselves on the back for their cleverness.

[fantique]

^^^^^^While I have not known people in that situation, I don't think it's an entirely too bad road to go down, honestly. The show was never meant for shipping opportunities and romance getting past the B-plot level. Let that stuff be subtext for those who are interested.

 

Onto what I assume will be an extremely unpopular opinion.

In general, I really think that the whole supporting a WoC, in a seemingly indiscriminate manner, thing or assuming them to be in the same position in the industry because of their race and gender is a disservice. These are artists that are trying to create something unique. I am sure they would love it much more if most people liked them because something in their work resonated with their fans as opposed to just being a tabula rasa for projection or suddenly being used as the poster child for whatever agenda people are saddling them with.
Example: maybe it's a cultural thing, or a taste thing, but the Scandal vs SH thing baffled me. I never assumed they had much of an overlap. Nicole and Kerry are very different actresses, Abbie and OP are dimensions apart. If someone is sitting down one night and deciding to watch either show, then they didn't want to watch the other one at the time of said decision. Not saying the same people can't like both, I am saying one can't be in the mood for both SH and Scandal at the same time. Indecisive in general or unsure of what they're in the mood for? Definitely. But sure that they actively want to watch both SH and Scandal at remotely close to equal measures?* I really don't buy it. The only thing they ever had in common was the procedural mystery-solving element, and it fizzed out of both.

 

I want to make it clear that I find nothing wrong with being extremely enthusiastic about encouraging talent that is part of an under-represented and under-appreciated group of society. But it has to have more behind it. It can't just be "ooh, the main character is a black/asian/latino woman/gay man so I will watch it". There have to be standards. Otherwise we will stay at the kind of stalemate we are in right now, which is: the suits recognise that a certain volume of viewers is guaranteed when having all those diversity bells and whistles even when the character is treated poorly and narratively shoved to the side. Because they know it's a personal stake for the viewers who follow that pattern and these viewers will do much to keep the ratings afloat just to coninue supporting that diversity except it's not that diversity they are actually supporting. It's the tokenism, the continued (and now inadvertently encouraged) accessorising of diversity they are helping along. This kind of approach just makes it a cool trend to have a PoC in a show as opposed to a legitimate creative need to portray the world around us in all its dimensions. Instead of being this obvious thing the industry does when presented with talents of different groups, it's this handout to cajole the marginals and seem cool while doing it.
I kind of see it as the equivalent of guys telling me they love black girls as a way to intimate interest in me. It's gross, fetishising and marks a distinct lack of respect and consideration of me as an individual.

It's like professing to love puppies to me, because you know, they are all fluff, cuddly and obedient. It is cute for them but condescending for a human being with a sense of identity and personality. Not only is the POV problematic but the fact that people uttering that think it's a compliment is the saddest part. Because they are saying it does not matter who I am so much as I tick the boxes to get them going. There is a difference between having a physical type and a fetish for a certain group. One is most likely an attempt to recreate an initial positive relationship, in a way trying to to get to the essential by using a physical filter. We all do it unconsciously, that's why you can sometimes see groups of friends that are similar for the same person no matter the stage of their lives, or particularly vapid people are always in groups that have all the guys/girls look and dress the same as they are looking for themselves as friends. Having a fetish, is objectifying the target of the fetish and the person doesn't matter. And it's not a thing only guys do btw, some of my girlfriends did it too and I found it super fucking creepy as well. It just always was one of my biggest pet peeves. And the thing with the attitude towards those actresses is that I feel it is all about wish fulfilment for the fans and no longer about the work they put in. If Abbie was played monotonously and boring and she still had the same following, that would make me immensely sad, because that means the beautiful work Nicole puts in is inconsequential. We have to want better for ourselves than being the default pick. 

I know I was extremely offended when I was told by my well meaning friend in my last year of highschool that my doubts about not having enough bells and whistles on my university application didn't matter because I am a black girl applying to engineering school. Like I was a collector's item. And imagine my rage when people then said about another friend of mine that she only got into MIT because she was black, like all her achievements did not matter and that wasn't her reward for being excellent, no, that was her getting a pity date. I had never been as pissed in my entire life. So yeah, I might have baggage about this kind of thinking, LOL. Ok I will shut up now.

[phoenics]

Because I'm exhausted and in no mood to engage with the "you only like them because they are black" argument, please just read this:

http://diversehighfantasy.tumblr.com/post/128378543876/you-only-like-them-because-youre-black

In other words - YES WE CAN SIMPLY root for them and want them to succeed because they are black. Otherwise, we run the risk of losing them, of losing the representation that matters and a whole host of other things.

It DOES NOT mean that we don't fight for them to be represented fairly - that was my entire argument in the other thread.

So yeah - that's my unpopular opinion. I love NB, but sometimes it feels like her fans do all of the work trying to save HER spot. Sure, in a 100% fair world, she wouldn't have to do all of this, but we live in a racist society. Hence, she does.

And as far as your tokenism argument goes - why on earth do you think so many fans fight so hard for Abbie to have a love life and to be shown as more than a trope? Have you been paying attention all year? I mean - that was the whole point behind #AbbieMillsDeservesBetter. Did we both see that and you misunderstood the fervor behind it?

And please stop conflating what I'm saying with shipping - it's not about shipping - except in some cases it is about shipping. In cases where if the two leads were white, would we be screaming about shipping? Then it shouldn't be frowned upon when black women point that fact out. In Hollywood - it usually isn't due to some fair reason why they might not "go there" with a white male and black female lead. In Hollywood - the reason is almost always born of racism. So people commenting on that have a perfectly fair point.

To that point: http://diversehighfantasy.tumblr.com/post/128926468321/fandom-and-the-intersection-of-feminism-and-race

ETA: I'm not sure of your age - but I'm a black woman with a PhD in Computer Science and every argument your friend heard, I heard too. It's not uncommon. But I still believe that I have a responsibility to other young girls who look up to me because I am black and a Phd in Comp Sci AND running research for a huge company that probably everyone here has heard of. It's actually okay for them to look up to me because I'm black. I resent the implication that they should have to prove that I'm worthy of looking up to for that reason. I'm a black woman scientist and some girls who might want to do that need to see me and see that my career path is possible for them. You cannot even imagine how many mentoring requests from aspiring black scientists and others I get. So I work hard to cape for myself - because if I don't, no one else will. And if I disappear or don't do everything I can to stay on top - those girls lose a mentor and an example.

I work with an organization called Black Girls Code. By your logic, we don't need that - but the reality is that we do. In middle school, 50% or so of black girls want to go into technology as a career. By the time they get to their senior year of high school, that percentage drops to ONE PERCENT. One of the causal factors is that they don't see enough women who look like them who are in those fields. Representation really does matter and looking up to someone or being excited about someone's accomplishments because they are black (and you are too) is not wrong.

It's the same thing with Hollywood. It's SO hard for women of color to break into that field, that they need to see others breaking barriers and having staying power. The sad reality has always been that for women of color, or people of color, you really do have to be 10 times as good to get the same amount of recognition - I'm not saying it's fair, but it is reality. And for me, NB's lack of press and attention on that end makes me worry for her future in Hollywood. She's a black woman. Realistically she's not going to be judged just on her talent. She doesn't have that luxury like Jennifer Lawrence.

Edited September 12, 2015 by phoenics

[kimberella]

Bringing this here from the media thread. Sorry in advance if this is not the right place to discuss this, but I don't know what other thread could fit better.

 

I am kind of shocked that people think Nivole is not fighting for what is "best" for her character. Her character was sidelined but still kept authentic and true during that I will now refer to as the DarK Times. Why is Abbie being with Ichabod the best for Nicole's career or ambitions? She was excited to sign up for an action packed fantasy show as a lead in her own right. She was excited because she is ostensibly the ONLY black female lead of fantasy show on TV and Film. She did not sign up to be the Leading Lady that comes with love interest privileges. The more independent storyline she has the more interesting for her as an actor. That's why she is all for the other dude. In that relationship, it will all be about Abbie. We will all be on Abbie's side and we will be there to see the effects on Abbie's development to be in that relationship. Damn right she doesn't want Ichabbie (at least right now), she wants a storyline that's hers, not hers and Ichabod or hers and Jenny's. Just. Hers. I actually find it worrying that people are arguing that it would be the only way she would carry as much weight on the show, if she was Ichabod's lady love. That's insulting. Ichabod should not be the gain to a character's importance for fuck's sake.

That's like saying he is the true lead of the show. Nicole's filmography is full of roles where she is the girl/woman, she is more than allowed to want more for her character.

This really pisses me off.

The idea that no Ichabbie means that's what's best for her character is hilarious to me. I hope Nicole is not delusional enough to think that, when the show has been telling everyone willing to pay attention exactly the opposite.

This show has been 100% Ichabbie-free from the very beginning and yet nothing about your scenario, in which Abbie gets a full life, where the show explores as many aspects of her life separate from Crane (and even Jenny), happened at all. How many times have I hoped that she's be treated like the leading lady she was supposed to be in the first place and be the protagonist in her own love story or explore her past as a criminal and drug user, her encounter with Moloch or face her own personal demons beyond the token Mills-centric episode? Countless. But I'm not kidding myself. What this show has been telling me from episode 1.05 is that Abbie doesn't exist, unless she's in Crane's proximity. That's why she has never put him in his place and never confronted him for his terrible behavior to her. That's why she had to witness the Cranes make out, cleaned their messes and took good care of them, while he treated her like crap. That's why her love interests have been in the past, impossible or creepy. He gets stories. Abbie sometimes participates in them. What this show has been telling me is that, unless she falls in bed with that jerk, she's background filler, pep talker and little helper. Someone Ichabod can dump his tirades on.

At least, if there is an Ichabbie romance, there is hope that Abbie won't be shoved aside as often and that Crane might begin to treat her with some respect and care, even if she doesn't get her own independent plots. As we have seen, the one in Crane's bed gets automatic female lead status and becomes the instant favorite in the writing room. Yeah, I'm aware Abbie could never become a favorite with these writers, but my point still stands that it would be more difficult for them to ignore her altogether.

I guess this makes me a shipper out of necessity. How depressing.

[fantique]

Umm...I was only talking about shipping in response to DJG1122's post right above mine????? 

 

 Also, I read that post and, while I feel bad for the writer's experiences, and I agree with what she said, I don't why it means we should support an actress only because they are black. Yes, we can like someone just because they look like us. Human nature, we trust what is familiar more. But I don't think that goes with what you say because the directionality is very important here. She is defending liking them because she is black, you are defending supporting them because they are. She is defending the connection based on race, which she is right to do. What I am complaining about, and you seem to think is a good thing, is indiscriminate praise. I am not going to say I love an actress if I have not seen her act, or I don't like her acting but she's black so I will say she's good or watch shows she's in even if they don't interest me. It's not even really about liking them at this point, it's about offering support even if there is no appreciation. That is a very different matter and I really fail to see how it's complimentary (or more than superficially helpful) to the recipients. 

Regardless, what I believe is that this can not be the goal. This can't be what an entire community of women is working towards. Because resigning ourselves to always be on one toe struggling for our footing is not satisfactory or something we should get used to. Because 'we can't take for granted that we are appreciated for our talents but white people can'?Terrible way of life. And how is that not something we should be rejecting?  

 

And my privilege? Well, I guess it's not being American while black.

 

Because I'm exhausted and in no mood to engage with the "you only like them because they are black" argument, please just read this:

http://diversehighfantasy.tumblr.com/post/128378543876/you-only-like-them-because-youre-black

In other words - YES WE CAN SIMPLY root for them and want them to succeed because they are black. Otherwise, we run the risk of losing them, of losing the representation that matters and a whole host of other things.

It DOES NOT mean that we don't fight for them to be represented fairly - that was my entire argument in the other thread.

So yeah - that's my unpopular opinion. I love NB, but sometimes it feels like her fans do all of the work trying to save HER spot. Sure, in a 100% fair world, she wouldn't have to do all of this, but we live in a racist society. Hence, she does.

And as far as your tokenism argument goes - why on earth do you think so many fans fight so hard for Abbie to have a love life and to be shown as more than a trope? Have you been paying attention all year? I mean - that was the whole point behind #AbbieMillsDeservesBetter. Did we both see that and you misunderstood the fervor behind it?

And please stop conflating what I'm saying with shipping - it's not about shipping - except in some cases it is about shipping. In cases where if the two leads were white, would we be screaming about shipping? Then it shouldn't be frowned upon when black women point that fact out. In Hollywood - it usually isn't due to some fair reason why they might not "go there" with a white male and black female lead. In Hollywood - the reason is almost always born of racism. So people commenting on that have a perfectly fair point.

ETA: I'm not sure of your age - but I'm a black woman with a PhD in Computer Science and every argument your friend heard, I heard too. It's not uncommon. But I still believe that I have a responsibility to other young girls who look up to me because I am black and a Phd in Comp Sci AND running research for a huge company that probably everyone here has heard of. It's actually okay for them to look up to me because I'm black. I resent the implication that they should have to prove that I'm worthy of looking up to for that reason. I'm a black woman scientist and some girls who might want to do that need to see me and see that my career path is possible for them. You cannot even imagine how many mentoring requests from aspiring black scientists and others I get. So I work hard to cape for myself - because if I don't, no one else will.

I work with an organization called Black Girls Code. By your logic, we don't need that - but the reality is that we do. In middle school, 50% or so of black girls want to go into technology as a career. By the time they get to their senior year of high school, that percentage drops to ONE PERCENT. One of the causal factors is that they don't see enough women who look like them who are in those fields. Representation really does matter and looking up to someone or being excited about someone's accomplishments because they are black (and you are too) is not wrong.

It's the same thing with Hollywood. It's SO hard for women of color to break into that field, that they need to see others breaking barriers and having staying power. The sad reality has always been that for women of color, or people of color, you really do have to be 10 times as good to get the same amount of recognition - I'm not saying it's fair, but it is reality. And for me, NB's lack of press and attention on that end makes me worry for her future in Hollywood. She's a black woman. Realistically she's not going to be judged just on her talent. She doesn't have that luxury like Jennifer Lawrence.

Answer:

I didn't watch TV for a while, only started 4 years ago and have been playing catch up, not always paying the best of attention. But what trope is Abbie? Because I don't feel like they portray her as frigid or or too strong to need a man. They have shown her in turns strong and vulnerable, decided and hesitant and even sometimes in need of rescue. Just because we haven't seen her on a date doesn't mean she is portrayed as unromantic/sexless unless we want to be extremely literal here. We have seen plenty of vulnerability over the past two seasons, and we have seen her sometimes get herself safe and we have seen her be rescued without it being too damsel-y. I refuse to believe that Abbie's value as woman is reduced to "have we seen a man want her and her want him?" I understand the fear of tropes but stories have context. The same way we found it frivolous and annoying when the show turned into marriage counselling, without a good way to introduce it, there is little way to not make Abbie seem completely frivolous. I mean people are getting kidnapped, heads are getting chopped off, etc. and we take a detour to see Abbie sigh longingly at her BF and thinking about how hard it is to not tell him the truth...?

If this was a sitcom and Abbie hasn't had so much as a date in two seasons, I would call bullshit. If this was a full on drama, not even here anymore. If it was anything that doesn't have predefined parameters like SH, I would find it suspicious that they aren't exploring it. But this show had clear guidelines, they got trampled and shat on during season 2 and now they are rebuilding them, and even thought of a decent storyline to introduce a long-ish term love interest that will make the story richer and get Nicole some opportunity to explore new parts of her character.

As for the hashtag, well I thought it was about Abbie being treated like the lead she is and getting her own story that focuses on her solely. She deserved better than being relegated to wise cracking sidekick, and I thought the hashtag was about that. BTW, I find it funny that people are acting like Twitter made her or something. She got the lead part just fine on her own. 

 

I am sorry but I am getting the sense that since you are insecure about the staying power of black actresses on TV, you have decided that Nicole should also feel that insecurity. Like she's not allowed to feel secure in her spot and that she should feel the need to act against her own nature to get what you perceive to be essential in her career (fan backing and media coverage) when it seems to me like she did fine before SH and will continue to do so after it's gone but maybe I'm wrong. To me, this is along the vein of  "don't take for granted the fact that you are living in a time when human/civil rights are prevalent". My response to that is and has always been "Oh, I will take it for granted, thank you very much" because there is no reason why I should be considered inferior, therefore I am not giving people a prize when they treat me as a decent human being, and I am certainly not begging for it. While it hasn't been my experience, I do realise that there is a case of devaluing black women that is pervasive in the western world but sexualising them will not help change that. Being sexualised doesn't equal being valued or found beautiful.

Beauty is a completely socio-economic construct. To find something beautiful is to place an ideal on it, to believe that it is associated with something that is desirable and positive in our environment. Basically, beauty is correlated to what a society associates with its top members. If black women in the industry are not synonym to talent, if execs know that they can freely have a black woman on screen without treating her with respect, dignity and integrity (and sexualising her and only treating her as a prize is failing to do that), then this cycle will continue on forever. If all they need is to put her front and centre and make her an agency-less love interest to satisfy viewers with the same problem as you, you will feel pacified, the white audience will feel so cool and open minded to be watching it while their delicate sensibilities are not hurt since the woman they are watching is dehumanised and not her own person. They are not even asked to connect with her, they can enjoy the show without that. How is that a goal to be aspiring to? Being cajoled and lied to when the reality is not changing? I have a huge problem with people getting on their high horse to end with this message. So we can all pretend, like the US has been pretending for decades (and how exactly is that going?), that all is well and we all respect and appreciate each other. This is a matter where compromise is the same as admitting defeat. It has to be all or nothing because to kick start the type change needed so little girls don't grow feeling like you did? That's not going to come from asking for scraps. If a show starts off interesting and then shows sign of the bait and switch you often talk about, quit. No one should be begging channels to give decent storylines, they should be begging us for our viewership. Setting the bar low for the quality of the representation means that they will take it as "bait and switch works, you guys". They know that they can pretend to care about featuring a diverse cast and then slowly filter the diversity out while fans bemoan the loss, create buzz and still watch. What is the impetus for changes in this scenario? How does that even generate more representation. Every new show is either to gain or recapture an audience, if they can keep the supporters on a leash with one show, they don't need more #diversity because they are already capitalising on "that type of program". They will only replace it once it runs its course. To be fair, they do that with well...everything. Except procedurals, for some reason they think people need 50 of those.  

 

And as I said in my post, aspiring for fair representation is good, but to set a lower standard for rewards in any field, is something that depresses me. Your group is a great idea of what I love and think people need, a way to be prepared and have the tools to be competitive if the the resources are not available. Organise events to know how to get the education and jobs they want and see that it is possible and okay to want it. We have to work harder? So be it. Butasling Nicole to fear for her position is like you to question your position and security within the company instead of reaping the benefits of your hard work? If a girl in your group tells you excitedly that she got into MIT and you tell her "well, don't get too excited. They probably chose you for quotas. Don't feel too confident about getting in. It will be hard so don't you feel too confident in your position." I would be heartbroken if I was told that. Probably would make me rage quit. Groups like SWE and NSBE are fucking amazing and I would like to think that they exist with the hope that one day they won't be necessary. I am not denying the difficulty of the situation, I have been subject and witness to some of it (although thankfully late enough in life that my sense of who I am and what I'm worth was already established). I am not denying the good those groups do. What I have a problem with is the idea that a person should feel overly self aware when in our situation and can't think they are more than a skin colour, that if an individual is successful they have to lead the crusade (some people can and some can't, putting it on them because you need their guidance is not fair) or that aspiring to another level of discrimination is a good thing (like "for a black woman, this is a good situation!"). I am always ecstatic to see other women in general, and black women even more, in high position jobs where they are clearly valued for what they bring to the table. To me that's a giant middle finger to white supremacy and patriarchy. Nothing makes me happier. That however, does not give me the right to admonish a black woman that is not going the extra mile to make it more pervasive, her achievement is already a huge plus. So yeah, it's great to have awesome examples to counter point any racist/sexist talk but at some point, there has to be something internal driving an ambition. I didn't stop ballet, tennis or karate because there were no other black kids. It shouldn't matter so much to be surrounded by people who look like you to feel at ease, but that's another story entirely. The fact that these girls joined proves that they are already super committed but feel singled out or something and I don't see how internalising an external problem helps. They should be told that there are idiots who will doubt their skill, intelligence, culture, etc. but that is a manifestation of that person's messed up head. It has nothing to do with them personally because the whole process is about dehumanising and ignoring who they are as an individual anyway. As long as they are aware of the scrutiny and the eventuality of someone short changing them based on their race and gender and are equipped to deal with it, it's fine. And, Malcolm Gladwell explains it in one of his books, the very idea that they are in a bad starting position that means they must irreproachable is in its own way crippling. In University, a bad grade can be changed. Teachers can be helpful, but if there is the idea of "If I mess up it's over" instead of "I will get help if I mess up, it's part of the process", well someone ends up in a black hole of despair and self doubt when they can and should ask for  help. In fact they are entitled to it, that's what the education system is about. I do it, all my friends (and some of them are black as well) do it and we move the fuck on. 

 

What is needed to help to get to that level of what I believe is acceptable entitlement, is to make girls understand that (like that blogger said) it's not a you problem. Take it into account, protect yourself but don't go around life restricting, limiting or forcing yourself into boxes because you're a black woman. If someone is racist, I consider it to be their problem, not mine. I like to know to be prepared but I am not going to act like I am begging for acceptance or constantly "making up" for the fact that I am black. Which is what you are asking Nicole to do. You're not just asking her to work work harder because her job is to perform, not to have a fan club.

Fans, and networks+PTB, like to exaggerate the power of fandoms. Entertainment industries are supply driven, not demand driven. The power resides in picking up what they're putting down. And you have to fucking know what they are putting down. If you see it as them selling you the "black women are just as worthy of interest" and while they're really selling "hip, cool new trend of going "urban" while still not treating black women as real people coming right up"? We have a problem. That's why there needs to be a standard. Unless you think that they will magically feel the impulse to serve up a real black woman when holding the black women supporters hostage while not taking what they consider a risk by making the audience care about and connect with a black woman. SH was helped because it had backing by two producers FOX had successfully worked with, a well established film director and a gap in their genre programming, SH was a needed breath of fresh air and there was an exec that was craving genuine, world representative diversity. It wasn't a "diversity project" like Empire (which is great... I love Cookie and have loved TPH for a years now) clearly is and there is nothing wrong with that either. It was a little show that could, one that no one really thought would work. It was a passion project by a newbie. We were asked to connect to Abbie, the show was grounded in her being the emotional focal point, much more so than Ichabod who was the quirky time traveller. She was the person we saw that world through. We'll see how that changes next season.

 

The idea that no Ichabbie means that's what's best for her character is hilarious to me. I hope Nicole is not delusional enough to think that, when the show has been telling everyone willing to pay attention exactly the opposite.

At least, if there is an Ichabbie romance, there is hope that 1)Abbie won't be shoved aside as often and that Crane might begin to treat her with some respect and care, even if she doesn't get her own independent plots. 2)As we have seen, the one in Crane's bed gets automatic female lead status and becomes the instant favorite in the writing room. Yeah, I'm aware Abbie could never become a favorite with these writers, but my point still stands that it would be more difficult for them to ignore her altogether.

Answer

Specific points you raised

1. Oh so the "hope" now is to be thought of once in a while thanks to Ichabod's magical wuv. How flattering...can't imagine why Nicole is not jumping all over that eventuality. Oh, I don't know, maybe she an iota of pride in her work and would sooner be fantastic in a 10th of the show than mediocre in half of it? Whatever everyone else wants to call it, I see it as integrity and healthy self*esteem.

2. Were we watching the same season 2 where Crane was also sidelined? Or are we rewriting history now that you-know-who is no longer the focal point of all the hate. It wasn't because Goffman wanted to focus on him, he wanted Katrina to be the star of the show! Because he had a Katrina crush. It wasn't about Crane, or his story or his character development. Season 2 was trying to retcon SH into "All roads lead to Katrina".  This was never about Crane or Abbie. It was about making the narrative as tied to Katrina and her motivation, presence as possible. I can't believe this is now being remembered as Crane's lady love gets the pie! Where were you during the constant talk of MG's KW obsession? This is why I mentioned context. If the execs were like "Oh, well he's only trying to push the black woman in the background, NBD..." then it would have been about them thinking Nicole, as a black woman, couldn't handle being lead. But they intervened early into the season because they wanted to assure more Abbie time. They made him write an Abbie centric episode when they realised where things were going (and I suspect too much was in the can for major changes) and clearly ordered a big change of direction for the last 5 episodes. So the network seems to have been in Nicole's corner and the reason behind the Katrina Show was that Goffman was being a creep, and probably chest puffing about the fact that he would make us all see the light of the glory that was Katrina. She didn't get screen time because she was Ichabod's wife.

 

 

I guess this makes me a shipper out of necessity. How depressing.

Hence the not taking it as a compliment on Nicole's, probably. Honestly, and that is exactly where my irritation comes from, if shipping Ichabbie is not because the story would be better or Abbie would be better but because of meta stuff, I don't see why people are annoyed at her for not wanting it.

 

 

General point: As for her not getting a lead storyline since halfway season 1. Well, again, CONTEXT!!!! The first season divided their arcs in halves with the last two episodes focusing on both switching dynamics : she became the more focused believer while he was put to the test. Abbie from episode 1 would have never trusted Crane even for a millisecond in Purgatory. Abbie had a huge change in season 1 and it showed in how her relationship to both Crane and Jenny, especially, changed. And season 2 was crazy town that nobody expected  or wanted except for some problematic writers who really sounded more like they were offfended by the lack of praise rather than animated by their love for Katrina. And really, if all the writers were on board with Katrina, she wouldn't have been so useless in most non-MG episodes. Seriously, I think she only did useful shit when it was either in a MG script or after she went dark. Either there was never an official "Katrina is the Queen" memo or they disliked it so much that they sabotaged, because there is no fucking way they graduated highschool if that was them writing Katrina as the new lead. There is no way they ever passed a reading comprehension test if that's the case. And, aside from her boobs being pushed up to her throat, there wasn't even an effort to make her attractive! Her wig was awful, she as often sickly pale. Even if the writers were pro Katrina-the-Lead, the crew and directors didn't seem to be because honestly, how half her scenes were okayed is beyond me. KW was never good but she was never that awful in season 1.

Also, Mo Ryan from the Huff Post had seen the outline of and was excited but then was floored by the execution. Someone who clearly wanted to see more from Abbie liked the broad-strokes and was looking forward to it. But Goffman just changed things and made it the Katrina Hour. That wasn't because they were never going to explore Abbie past 105! That's because he apparently went nuts and thought he could replace Abbie and no one would be the wiser or at least be bothered by it. Well, the suits were bothered, the press was bothered and the fans were bothered. And in one if those rare moments of synergy, we all knew exactly what the problems were. Katrina and, more importantly, Abbie not being treated as the lead she was supposed to be. I don't see how all that translates into "they don't care and were never going to do her justice anyway" as opposed to the clear sign that the showrunner at the time was completely inadequate and blind to what everyone BTS, the press and the viewers were saying. If nobody on the exec/production side cared about Abbie and Nicole, it doesn't matter how loud the fans got, they would never had ordered rewrites. They would have let it crash and burn or even if they kept SH around for ownership reasons, they would have left it completely in his hands without bothering to fix anything until it was costing them too much. So I don't see how season 2 invalidates the hopes for Abbie. The real test will be season 3, you know, run by someone different than season 2. Oh, and still need more than "she's from the past" as the reason behind SBR = new Katrina. And that's coming from me who really doesn't want this character to exist on this show. At. All.

 

Short of it; I hate when people lower their expectations for me or try to give me concessions because they underestimate me. I think, and that's why I used the creepy fetish analogy, that people lumping black actresses together and treating them as the same (which is what supporting them indiscriminately does, the problem is not the support, it's the lack of meaning behind it for the recipient since it is given without regards to standard/taste/etc) is not a mean spirited exercise but it takes away from their individuality and merit as performers. Comparing CP and NB when they have little in common in their situations outside of being black actresses and then judging one lacking is unfair in my mind because context is a thing and always using general problems as a justification for discontent even if the case doesn't apply is rarely useful (but we disagree on whether it applies so... at least it's in the right thread, lol). And there is a difference between quality and quantity of representation. A paint by the number approach fosters the latter without the former which I don't believe to be a good thing for real change to come about...You know, as opposed to the endless cycle of hope, dismay and frustration at the same method never working out differently. It means a great deal to some to support black actresses indiscriminately but the problem is that it's not something they can hold the actresses accountable for since it's more about how they feel about the issue than even the actresses' own personal interests. They decided to do it, they get to feel how they feel about their decisions but saying the actresses are not reacting accordingly to what they want from them is redundant. The choice wasn't based on the individual, it was based on their group membership. Of course they won't all behave the same and it's obvious the supporter won't like what all of them do but that's on them because it was the supporters' choice to not account for the actresses' differences. The actresses' didn't lead them astray so their disappointment is not the actresses' fault or a reflection on their ability/effort. But you know, YMMV, this is why I posted it here. Because I felt (and now know) it wouldn't be well received.

Edited September 11, 2015 by fantique

[OnceSane]

Move on from this and get back on topic.

[cynic]

Move on from this and get back on topic.

Would it be possible to get a race/gender topic like some other shows have? I think there are some interesting points to be explored in relation to Sleepy Hollow that could make a good thread and it might keep the other topics from getting derailed as much, especially as the new season starts.

[phoenics]

Would it be possible to get a race/gender topic like some other shows have? I think there are some interesting points to be explored in relation to Sleepy Hollow that could make a good thread and it might keep the other topics from getting derailed as much, especially as the new season starts.

I completely agree with this, especially given the history of SH and the disagreements we've been having lately.

[OnceSane]

Would it be possible to get a race/gender topic like some other shows have? I think there are some interesting points to be explored in relation to Sleepy Hollow that could make a good thread and it might keep the other topics from getting derailed as much, especially as the new season starts.

Ask and you shall receive.

[LeeLeePanda]

A few unpopular opinions about this season:

1. It doesn't bother me that Abbie and Reynolds both have comfy positions with the FBI 9 months out of Quantico.

2. It doesn't bother me that Crane doesn't seem to have a job.

3. It doesn't bother me that Crane follows Abbie to crime scenes.

4. It doesn't bother me that Abbie shoots off her gun and no one questions the use of bullets.

These things don't bother me because this is a show about supernatural things and creatures. It's not set in the real world. If I can suspend my disbelief about a 200 plus year old Colonial man coming back to life to fight demons in the 21st century, I can suspend my disbelief about mundane things like paying rent, employment, and quick job advancement.

[Eun Soo]

A few unpopular opinions about this season:

1. It doesn't bother me that Abbie and Reynolds both have comfy positions with the FBI 9 months out of Quantico.

2. It doesn't bother me that Crane doesn't seem to have a job.

3. It doesn't bother me that Crane follows Abbie to crime scenes.

4. It doesn't bother me that Abbie shoots off her gun and no one questions the use of bullets.

These things don't bother me because this is a show about supernatural things and creatures. It's not set in the real world. If I can suspend my disbelief about a 200 plus year old Colonial man coming back to life to fight demons in the 21st century, I can suspend my disbelief about mundane things like paying rent, employment, and quick job advancement.

I agree, especially with 2 and 3.  I want to see Abbie and Crane fight evil and hang out.  That's harder to do if everyone is gainfully employed.  The show could fix that by having Abbie and Jennie open up a PI firm.

 

I know the FBI/Reynolds is there to cause conflict, but I don't want it to interfere with the fighting evil aspect of the show or turn into a soap opera.  I used to watch soap operas and whenever they brought in a new actor because of their "amazing" chemistry with an established actor, it was a disaster. I'm not a fan of the Zoe/BR thing either, but those aren't unpopular opinions.

 

I love, empathize and sympathize with both Abbie and Ichabod, but the fantasy geek in me finds Ichy more compelling - the whole man out of time battling evil to save world thing.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Eun Soo

[CalamityBoPeep]

A few unpopular opinions about this season:

1. It doesn't bother me that Abbie and Reynolds both have comfy positions with the FBI 9 months out of Quantico.

2. It doesn't bother me that Crane doesn't seem to have a job.

3. It doesn't bother me that Crane follows Abbie to crime scenes.

4. It doesn't bother me that Abbie shoots off her gun and no one questions the use of bullets.

These things don't bother me because this is a show about supernatural things and creatures. It's not set in the real world. If I can suspend my disbelief about a 200 plus year old Colonial man coming back to life to fight demons in the 21st century, I can suspend my disbelief about mundane things like paying rent, employment, and quick job advancement.

 

I love this list. Count me in.  I also handwavium that Crane has a stash-o-cash that's been put away at Lloyd's of London since K-word and season 1 priest buried him.  I fanwank that they anticipated that he'd rise again sometime, so figured he'd need funds.  I like my little world.  Care to join me? 

[HalcyonDays]

I love this list. Count me in.  I also handwavium that Crane has a stash-o-cash that's been put away at Lloyd's of London since K-word and season 1 priest buried him.  I fanwank that they anticipated that he'd rise again sometime, so figured he'd need funds.  I like my little world.  Care to join me? 

 

I like your world too. I'm in. Any trinket from Crane's time would be worth a fortune. Like we never know how he could have flown to England without proper documents, we'll never know where he gets cash. Not gonna worry about it - It's TV. This show has a headless horseman, demons, and a man who was born in the 18th century. People in TV live in way expensive apartments living a rich person's life while making a pittance. Don't sweat the small stuff.

[jhlipton]

Don't sweat the small stuff.

 

And it's all small stuff.

[Enero]

Unpopular opinion:

 

Though Crane and Abbie have mad chemistry that could turn romantic if written, I find both characters asexual. I can't imagine either one of them being in a passionate romantic relationship with others much less each other. This is mainly because the romantic relationships we have seen Crane have he's come off as stiff and uncomfortable and no offense to TM but he can't kiss worth a damn on screen. Then there's Abbie, whose had no onscreen romance at all and every guy who has openly expressed an interest in going there with her she's shown absolutely no interest. She's so eye on the ball and all business all the time (or at least most of the time) that I'd be hard pressed to imagine her allowing herself to be vulnerable enough to kiss a man much less have a deep romantic connection with him. That's not to say NB isn't capable of it. I've seen her in other roles and she's very much capable of successfully portraying a romantic heroine. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

I watch this show, but am mostly a lurker, but after reading comments from this season, I have an opinion which definitely falls in this thread:

 

I don't find the character of Pandora, interesting, charming, or even think she's a good or eeeevil villain. She bores me. My attention glazes over or goes astray whenver she is onscreen by herself or when she's talking to guest stars or victims. She's a big giant Yaaawn for me.

 

I miss Season One Headless. Now HE was a scary and interesting villain.

[DeLurker]

I watch this show, but am mostly a lurker, but after reading comments from this season, I have an opinion which definitely falls in this thread:

 

I don't find the character of Pandora, interesting, charming, or even think she's a good or eeeevil villain. She bores me. My attention glazes over or goes astray whenver she is onscreen by herself or when she's talking to guest stars or victims. She's a big giant Yaaawn for me.

 

I miss Season One Headless. Now HE was a scary and interesting villain.

While I am kinda neutral on Pandora, ITA with S1 Headless - he was fantastic!

[fantique]

I miss Season One Headless. Now HE was a scary and interesting villain.

Sobbing in remembrance of the good old days. (T-T)

[Eun Soo]

I agree about S1 headless, which is why I was happy to see him go into Pandora's box. S2 did major damage to every character, but Katrina who had no perceivable personality to damage. Hopefully headless will come out of Pandora's box as his S1 scary self, and Andy can come back as his mouth piece, and Kindred can return to protect the witnesses... sigh - wishful thinking.

[Fable]

I agree about S1 headless, which is why I was happy to see him go into Pandora's box. S2 did major damage to every character, but Katrina who had no perceivable personality to damage. Hopefully headless will come out of Pandora's box as his S1 scary self, and Andy can come back as his mouth piece, and Kindred can return to protect the witnesses... sigh - wishful thinking.

 

 

As terrifying as S1 Headless was, I don't think his return will have the same impact on me.  I wouldn't mind if he returned, but I'll never look at him the same after seeing Abraham so neutered.  

[Eun Soo]

It might work, if the focus was shifted to team witness instead Crane. If Ichabbie or Jenny and Joe had a close encounter with headless the way Irving did, I'd be onboard, especially if it happened without warning.

[Fable]

I'm not saying it won't work, only that it won't work for me.  I'd be fine with him returning, he was fun and I would enjoy seeing him again, but I just don't think I will ever find him as menacing as he was.   

[phoenics]

I'm not saying it won't work, only that it won't work for me.  I'd be fine with him returning, he was fun and I would enjoy seeing him again, but I just don't think I will ever find him as menacing as he was.

I think it was because of his connection to the other horsemen of the Apocalypse and the whole end of the world thing with Moloch. He wasn't just a headless horseman, he was the harbinger of DEATH! And you couldn't stop him. Only sunlight could. It was just amazing to watch him.

I feel like the only way to bring back our Headless would have been for them to separate Abraham from him in an attempt to "neuter" him and release Abraham's soul. But then it would all backfire and go horribly wrong as headless is then indwelt by some horrid demon who is connected to the next big Apocalypse bad.

I miss the S1 Apocalypse mythology. If they could bring back some of those elements and tie it to Pandora I think it would work better.

[Yolapukka]

I'm fine with keeping the Abraham part of the horseman as long as it doesn't lead to the head returning with more whinging from him over his broken heart or from Ichabod over his guilt as a shitty friend. He is still tied to evil, but now it's less service of a specific evil than bedevilling the man who stole his fiancee and was responsible for her death. I do like the idea of trying to neuter him by releasing Abraham's soul only to have it backfire. That could make for a good arc in a future season. 

 

My unpopular opinion? everything is fine, fine! and the show is totally going to be back for another season. Less an unpopular opinion than crackpot wishful thinking, really.

Edited November 12, 2015 by yuggapukka

[Free]

I miss the S1 Apocalypse mythology. If they could bring back some of those elements and tie it to Pandora I think it would work better.

 

I loved the sense of fun and urgency it had, for some reason, S2 ruined all that, they ruined all the villains and Moloch went down like a chump, not to mention leaving out the last 2 horsemen altogether.

[Terrafamilia]

I'm not really missing Capt. Irving. While I think Orland Jones is great at comedy I just don't feel him as a dramatic actor.

[phoenics]

Sometimes... when I re-watch the drowning scene in the library where Hawley brings Abbie back with CPR and Crane is desperate but helpless, I miss Hawley and his hotness.

Sometimes I wish they'd bring him back - but I guess now it would have to be to act as a foil to Joenny.

But still. Hawley actually wasn't so bad on his own - it was just that he was yet another pile on while we watched Jenny and Irving and Abby marginalized.

Plus - he was cute.

[Enero]

Unpopular opinion, I re-watched Tempus Fugit the other night and without the context of the entire season, I think it's one of the best episodes of SH. It had everything that made Sleepy Hollow magical, IMHO. There was adventure, insanity - who can forget Ben Franklin's head getting chopped off? Hilarity - Ben Franklin getting his head cut off? 18th century Crane trying to figure out a smartphone. Abbie being badassed. Lots of emotion, i.e. Abbie meeting Grace Dixon and saying goodbye to Crane. And the chemistry between Abbie and Crane smoldered. Even though there was no connection, yet, between them in 1776 or whatever year Abbie went back to, I could see and feel the intensity of the connection between the characters. Major props to NB and TM for successfully conveying that connection.

This is definitely one of my favorite SH episodes.

[phoenics]

^^^^ I don't think this is an unpopular opinion at all.

[Sparkling Beth]

I agree with phoenics--acknowledging the brilliance of Tempus Fugit is not an unpopular opinion!  I've watched it at least five times and have always found it deeply satisfying and wildly enjoyable.  I think most SH fans would agree.