After You, Leftenant: Gender and Race in Sleepy Hollow

[OnceSane]

Discuss gender and race issues in Sleepy Hollow here!

[cynic]

Thanks for granting my wish, OnceSane! I think this board has had so many interesting and thoughtful discussions about race/gender and I'm excited to have a dedicated place for it.

Of course, now I can't think of anything to say!

To start on a positive note, one of my favorite things about Sleepy Hollow is the relationship between the Mills sisters. There have been a lot of shows that have focused on brother relationships or male/male relationships in general, but relatively few that have a complex sister dynamic. The fact that the sisters are black is even more unusual, especially since that requires two black major female characters when most shows have a hard time including one.

On the negative side, I do wish that Sleepy Hollow was more willing to portray Abbie as a desirable woman who is capable of having both a fulfilling love life and great professional career. I'm kinda over the I'm strong, so I don't need a man trope. I just wish for once that I could see a black woman be involved in a promoted healthy, romantic OTP relationship on tv.

Edited September 13, 2015 by cynic

[phoenics]

Thank you SO MUCH for this thread!

cynic - I think the sisters' relationship on this show is one of my favorite things. I remember when Abbie got out of Purgatory and then she went to hug Jenny and I was like - awwww! Mostly because of where they came from to get to that point. It was a long, hard journey filled with a lot of pain, but it was so gratifying to see Nicole play Abbie going "Aaaahhh!!" throwing her hands up in a "finally I'm with you again!" gesture right before she went to hug Jenny. It's honestly one of my favorite scenes from the show.

And what I love about Sleepy Hollow in terms of what it gets right from a race perspective is that it passes the "Black Bechdel" test. You'll actually see Jenny and Abbie having a conversation and it's about them or their mother, or their past. It passes! Jenny and Irving (sobs!) passed too.

I think where the show falls down is in the fact that Abbie's life is neglected in favor of Crane's in the storytelling. I'm hopeful that's going to change this season. I hope that Abbie's storyline with her love interest is given the same amount of time as Crane and his. And that Ichabbie is still the main draw/focus.

And with Ichabbie ever achieving romantic play, I think that sometimes my frustration with the "we never get to see two male/female leads just be platonic!" is that it ignores intersectionality when a black woman is one of the platonic leads. So for non-black women, they have seen white female leads as the damsel in distress, the helpless one, the love interest only there for some guy's man pain, the delicate flower, the one to be protected tropes for decades. But black women haven't seen any of those - we're usually depicted as too strong or masculine to need help and that image really hurts. So for many of us black women (as a whole, some individual exceptions may apply for those who haven't been worn out by the ABW or SBW, sapphire, mammy, sassy sidekick, etc tropes), well, we're tired of the almost exact opposite tropes that non-black women are tired of, because of the one-sidedness of how we are represented in media.

This post explains it better than I could: http://diversehighfantasy.tumblr.com/post/128926468321/fandom-and-the-intersection-of-feminism-and-race

Edited September 13, 2015 by phoenics

[kimberella]

Thank you for this thread, OnceSane!
 

To start on a positive note, one of my favorite things about Sleepy Hollow is the relationship between the Mills sisters. There have been a lot of shows that have focused on brother relationships or male/male relationships in general, but relatively few that have a complex sister dynamic. The fact that the sisters are black is even more unusual, especially since that requires two black major female characters when most shows have a hard time including one.

Agreed, although I wish they moved on already from the tears and hugs scenes, to more fun ones. I think it's fine to explore their troubled past and drama (without it becoming overwhelming), of course, but this show only explores that aspect of their relationship and it's usually constrained to one or two episodes. I also want to see Abbie and Jenny having fun or simply relaxing at home. Instead of telling me that they occasionally go out together and flirt with guys, show it. Show them at home preparing dinner and make plans for the weekend. That kind of stuff with just the two of them, because I also find it problematic, that their tears and hugs don't exist privately. This show doesn't have the guts to let them be independently from Crane, as if his presence and reactions gave their existence and feelings legitimacy.
 

On the negative side, I do wish that Sleepy Hollow was more willing to portray Abbie as a desirable woman who is capable of having both a fulfilling love life and great professional career. I'm kinda over the I'm strong, so I don't need a man trope. I just wish for once that I could see a black woman be involved in a promoted healthy, romantic OTP relationship on tv.

+1. It's shameful that Jenny has had more of a romantic life than the lead.

Bringing this from the unpopular opinions thread, because it belongs here.
 

1. Oh so the "hope" now is to be thought of once in a while thanks to Ichabod's magical wuv. How flattering...can't imagine why Nicole is not jumping all over that eventuality. Oh, I don't know, maybe she an iota of pride in her work and would sooner be fantastic in a 10th of the show than mediocre in half of it? Whatever everyone else wants to call it, I see it as integrity and healthy self*esteem.

Nicole shouldn't jump all over that eventuality and neither do I. As I said, I find it horrible, but also necessary. I'm talking about what's best for her character. Is it better to be ignored, sidelined and treated like an afterthought or to have the writers' room engaged and writing for you? It is awful that Abbie doesn't exist, unless she's in Crane's proximity, but this show is what it is and it's not realistic to think no Ichabbie means more and better stories for Abbie.

 

2. Were we watching the same season 2 where Crane was also sidelined? Or are we rewriting history now that you-know-who is no longer the focal point of all the hate. It wasn't because Goffman wanted to focus on him, he wanted Katrina to be the star of the show! Because he had a Katrina crush. It wasn't about Crane, or his story or his character development. Season 2 was trying to retcon SH into "All roads lead to Katrina". This was never about Crane or Abbie. It was about making the narrative as tied to Katrina and her motivation, presence as possible. I can't believe this is now being remembered as Crane's lady love gets the pie! Where were you during the constant talk of MG's KW obsession? This is why I mentioned context. If the execs were like "Oh, well he's only trying to push the black woman in the background, NBD..." then it would have been about them thinking Nicole, as a black woman, couldn't handle being lead. But they intervened early into the season because they wanted to assure more Abbie time. They made him write an Abbie centric episode when they realised where things were going (and I suspect too much was in the can for major changes) and clearly ordered a big change of direction for the last 5 episodes. So the network seems to have been in Nicole's corner and the reason behind the Katrina Show was that Goffman was being a creep, and probably chest puffing about the fact that he would make us all see the light of the glory that was Katrina. She didn't get screen time because she was Ichabod's wife.

Goffman's inexplicable boner for Katrina didn't sideline Crane at all, because, after all, Crane has always been and will always be the Sacred Cow of the show. Goffman's boner specifically wanted the Cranes as the leads with Abbie out of the picture. Besides, it's not like Goffman was the only one in charge. Before last season started, Orci and Kurtzman were only too happy to declare, that S2 would be CFD time and that's exactly what happened. FOX was on Abbie's corner, but the entire writing room and the producers were pro Cranes and that's why their family drama sucked the entire series into their black hole. All of the Cranes took over the show, not just Katrina.

Anyway, this direction was quite obvious in the second half of S1. It was the typical bait and switch. Bait diversity and switch it for white people stories. Nothing I didn't expect, after they declared Abbie a strong woman that needs no man, while Crane was allowed to have an epic love story. That mind frame means trouble for black women on TV shows.

[cynic]

Yeah, Kimberella, when people talk about the decline in quality the show took in season 2, I always want to point out that I think it actually happened halfway through season 1. The hard swerve the show took around "Sanctuary" was very apparent and Abbie was definitely a victim of it, though not the only one.

 

Thank you SO MUCH for this thread!

cynic - I think the sisters' relationship on this show is one of my favorite things. I remember when Abbie got out of Purgatory and then she went to hug Jenny and I was like - awwww! Mostly because of where they came from to get to that point. It was a long, hard journey filled with a lot of pain, but it was so gratifying to see Nicole play Abbie going "Aaaahhh!!" throwing her hands up in a "finally I'm with you again!" gesture right before she went to hug Jenny. It's honestly one of my favorite scenes from the show.

And what I love about Sleepy Hollow in terms of what it gets right from a race perspective is that it passes the "Black Bechdel" test. You'll actually see Jenny and Abbie having a conversation and it's about them or their mother, or their past. It passes! Jenny and Irving (sobs!) passed too.

....

My favorite Abbie/Jenny scene is the conversation they had in the interrogation room as Jenny heads back to jail. Two black woman, by themselves, having a dramatic, emotionally charged scene about themselves and their relationship was like woah for me. And they were both so good in it. It made me want to cry. 

 

 

...And with Ichabbie ever achieving romantic play, I think that sometimes my frustration with the "we never get to see two male/female leads just be platonic!" is that it ignores intersectionality when a black woman is one of the platonic leads. So for non-black women, they have seen white female leads as the damsel in distress, the helpless one, the love interest only there for some guy's man pain, the delicate flower, the one to be protected tropes for decades. But black women haven't seen any of those - we're usually depicted as too strong or masculine to need help and that image really hurts. So for many of us black women (as a whole, some individual exceptions may apply for those who haven't been worn out by the ABW or SBW, sapphire, mammy, sassy sidekick, etc tropes), well, we're tired of the almost exact opposite tropes that non-black women are tired of, because of the one-sidedness of how we are represented in media.

THIS. OMG THIS. I get the desire for platonic leads, I really do, but does it have to be this show? The one show where realistically a black woman could be part of a major network OTP like Castle/Beckett and Bones/Booth? Can I have one show where I can watch a black female lead be deemed worthy of a love story that people are invested in and root for?

 

Besides, I don't get the concept that Abbie has the be single to be a strong woman anyway. Yes, woman are often relegated to roles where they exist only to further the man's story and they become damsels or lack agency. Is that what Beckett is or Bones? I haven't watched in years, but they weren't while I was a viewer. Once of my favorite new shows, 12 Monkeys, is able to write a strong female character who has agency and her own moral development without her having to be celibate and that's on SYFY ffs! (Seriously, I highly recommend it. Cassie is now one of my favorite characters ever.)

[jhlipton]

I'm glad for this thread and am going to watch it, but don't have much to say about it (as a white man, I'm going to check my privilege at the door).

 

I'm hoping that Castle and Bones broke the "Moonlighting curse" for dramas, as Jimmy and Sabrina on Raising Hope did for comedies. That trope is hopefully dead (and, given the success of Nick and Nora in the Thin Man movies should never have existed at all).  

 

Given that I'm a "swirl" fan, I hope that Ich and Abbie have a romantic relationship, but I'll be happy with any equal partnership.

[cynic]

I just watched the Minority Report premiere. It was....well, let's just say it was no Sleepy Hollow. The striking thing though was you could tell it really really wanted to be Sleepy Hollow, at least in terms of the main partnership. There's the obvious racial aspect, but also Goode plays a no-nonsense cop who's very good at her job and Sands plays a man with important knowledge who is unfamiliar with the world that he finds himself in (since he spent a decade isolated in PreCrime). He helps her solve the crimes while she helps him navigate these new circumstances. There were also a lot of attempts at snark and banter that sadly fell flat for the most part. I suppose I could compare it to other buddy cop shows, but the similarities in circumstance, the fact that this is a genre procedural on FOX, and the optics just lends itself to a SH comparison. Meagan Goode's character even dresses like Abbie with her tee shirts and leather jacket, except everything is tighter and lower cut. And with Abbie's season 3 haircut, they have very similar hair. Rounding out the similarities, Goode even has a Hispanic colleague that she apparently used to have a thing with who already has managed to be more annoying than Luke. 

 

Which brings me to why I'm posting in this thread. I read a review that mentioned that one of the reasons for the colleague's inclusion is that the showrunners have no intention of pairing up the main duo romantically. Huh, well that sounds familiar. Funny how both these shows somehow manage to escape the will they/won't they trope. It's like they have something in common!

[phoenics]

I just watched the Minority Report premiere. It was....well, let's just say it was no Sleepy Hollow. The striking thing though was you could tell it really really wanted to be Sleepy Hollow, at least in terms of the main partnership. There's the obvious racial aspect, but also Goode plays a no-nonsense cop who's very good at her job and Sands plays a man with important knowledge who is unfamiliar with the world that he finds himself in (since he spent a decade isolated in PreCrime). He helps her solve the crimes while she helps him navigate these new circumstances. There were also a lot of attempts at snark and banter that sadly fell flat for the most part. I suppose I could compare it to other buddy cop shows, but the similarities in circumstance, the fact that this is a genre procedural on FOX, and the optics just lends itself to a SH comparison. Meagan Goode's character even dresses like Abbie with her tee shirts and leather jacket, except everything is tighter and lower cut. And with Abbie's season 3 haircut, they have very similar hair. Rounding out the similarities, Goode even has a Hispanic colleague that she apparently used to have a thing with who already has managed to be more annoying than Luke. 

 

Which brings me to why I'm posting in this thread. I read a review that mentioned that one of the reasons for the colleague's inclusion is that the showrunners have no intention of pairing up the main duo romantically. Huh, well that sounds familiar. Funny how both these shows somehow manage to escape the will they/won't they trope. It's like they have something in common!

I'm amazed at the lengths these suits at Fox and other places will go to willfully attempt to kill any hope of romance between a black female lead and a white male lead. I don't understand it - or - the only way I can understand it is to simply call a spade a spade. It's racist as hell.

Funny how the "why can't they just be friends?" mess only comes up when it involves black female leads with white male leads.

[DearEvette]

Funny how the "why can't they just be friends?" mess only comes up when it involves black female leads with white male leads.

 

I know.  i didn't watch any new or returning shows yet, but I was curious about the reception of Minority Report and a few others.  I saw a lot of shipping speculation between the main characters in the new CBS show Blindspot -- despite the fact that the overwhelming consensus seems to be the male lead is lacking in charisma and the is no chemistry between the mains.  And yet... people seem to be open to the possibility of coupledom.  Boggles. Doesn't matter to me because I had no intention of watching that show, but still the comparison between the accepted speculation of coupledom between the white protags vs. the immediate pushback between Ab/Ich and even between canon pairings of Iris and Barry is stark.

 

I do intend to watch Minority Report and will reserve judgement, but in all things if the chemistry and vibe is there why not let it play out?

[jhlipton]

I just watched the Minority Report premiere. It was....well, let's just say it was no Sleepy Hollow. 

 

I don't see why it should be like SH.  There are some similarities, but I think it's straining to say that Dash is anything like Crane. He's not boggled by the future, he's making up for a life he never had.  And I would hardly say that Vega is "no-nonsense" -- she had good banter with her co-workers and with Dash.  Moreover, I can see easily going out with the girls or on a date -- she's not weighed down like Abby is.

 

The showrunners may have said that they don't see romance between Vega and Dash but [a] showrunners lie, [2] the chemistry between the stars may convince them otherwise and [iii] they may be thinking of pairing up Vega and Arthur.  

 

After all the talk this summer about how Beharie has to carry the non-stereotype all by herself, I'm a little surprised there isn't more support for MR.

[phoenics]

jhlipton - I think you're really missing the point.

[cynic]

What I meant by "it's no SH", was 1) the pilot didn't blow me away to say the least (I didn't think it was very good at all) and 2) the partnership didn't click right away and have that elusive magic that all buddy cop shows strive for, which Mison and Beharie had from jump.

But you're right about the no-nonsense part. Vega isn't no-nonsense. She's much more open then Abbie and can be a little cocky. I should have put that better. What I was trying to say was that I saw similarities in some of the sternness that both Mills and Vega initially treated Dash and Crane with when they came into their orbit as possible suspects. I also see similarities in how they softened to them, were sometimes exasperated by them, and were sometimes amused by them (and snarked at them). Both officers also shared a glimpse of their past to these men, sharing a pivotal moment in their lives that lead them to being in law enforcement during the pilots which helped them build trust. And both women quickly recognized the value in the knowledge that the guys had enough to go off book and risk their careers to secretly work with them. While Crane and Dash have very different personalities and deal with their circumstances in different ways, they both still missed many years which is difficult for them. The world changed around Crane and Dash missed much of his own personal development due to it. They both have to learn to adapt while fulfilling this greater mission and while keeping their true identities secret from the greater population. And they both have help with that from this good cop. I just think the parallels are glaring.

As for TPTB not wanting to put these two together, I can't say for sure whether that's true or not. I just read it in an article. However, I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case due to my personal tv viewing experience. With ratings like MR got, I doubt we'll ever find out though.

Edited September 24, 2015 by cynic

[jhlipton]

I saw similarities in some of the sternness that both Mills and Vega initially treated Dash and Crane with when they came into their orbit as possible suspects. I also see similarities in how they softened to them, were sometimes exasperated by them, and were sometimes amused by them (and snarked at them). Both officers also shared a glimpse of their past to these men, sharing a pivotal moment in their lives that lead them to being in law enforcement during the pilots which helped them build trust. And both women quickly recognized the value in the knowledge that the guys had enough to go off book and risk their careers to secretly work with them. While Crane and Dash have very different personalities and deal with their circumstances in different ways, they both still missed many years which is difficult for them. The world changed around Crane and Dash missed much of his own personal development due to it. They both have to learn to adapt while fulfilling this greater mission and while keeping their true identities secret from the greater population. And they both have help with that from this good cop. I just think the parallels are glaring.

 

I think you just described every "Cop doesn't go by the rules" & "veteran cop" movie and show EVAH.

[phoenics]

I think you just described every "Cop doesn't go by the rules" & "veteran cop" movie and show EVAH.

Maybe - but when you add in the whole "man out of time" or "man removed from time for a while so he now has to readjust to the world moving on without him and the uncertainty that presents", then it really does point to a Sleepy Hollow kind of thing.

[cynic]

I think you just described every "Cop doesn't go by the rules" & "veteran cop" movie and show EVAH.

Yeah, oh except by the book cop/rogue cop partnerships are generally both actual cops, without one of them having a secret identity, without one of them being removed from the world that leaves them at a distinct disadvantage to normal understanding as to how the world works, that are generally paired up despite themselves at the explicit direction of their employers to work regular cases instead of hiding that they're working together on a secret mission that only they can fulfill with the secret knowledge only they have, where the partnership focuses on learning to work through their disparate styles and even some antagonism without the distinct dynamic of one person essentially guiding the other through their adjustment to the world. Yes, there are going to be commonalities shared with other buddy cop shows. I think these particular partnerships are more similar than most. Of course, YMMV.

Edited September 24, 2015 by cynic

[jhlipton]

I don't want to wonder too far from our topic -- let's continue in Ratings or Small Talk...

[Dobian]

Exactly.

 

You see, that would be fine if he had done anything like that in the past on screen, but all he has done is treat her like dirt and get away with it every single time without apologies. He has always behaved like he's entitled to use her at will and dismiss her, when shinier things got his attention. There is no good reason for me to believe that changed, when we weren't looking. In fact, he displayed the same old behavior in this episode, where he only remembered she existed, because he needed something from her, like the good old narcissistic psychopath he is. What a deep friendship on his side! Such a strong bond! Bros forevah! Please.

No, the reason she is cool with him being a jerk to her is because the writers have always been happy to disregard Abbie's character to benefit Crane at every turn. God forbid he's accountable for his actions.

 

That plays into the "strong black woman that needs no man" trope, which says black women are not worthy of romantic love, while white women get rewarded with it, badass or not. Isn't it convenient that the white couple got their Epic Love Story? They can be badass and romantic, at least on paper. Whether it failed or not is secondary to the fact, that Abbie has only been treated as a work horse by the writers and therefore Crane himself. It's funny you mention The Affair, when it's a show about white people and their love stories.

All that matters is if Crane falls in love with her? No, not really. That would be ridiculous. Crane has never respected her, even less cared about her as a friend. Where would that mythical love come from? I'm sorry, but it would be forced and completely unbelievable. Abbie is not the kind of woman he'd ever be into. I mean, he keeps romanticizing a past, where he'd have the right to beat up, rape and murder women like Abbie without consequences. His best friends were slave owners. That's the place and the people he belongs with. It's no big surprise he treats Abbie so abysmally.

Forget about Crane, what matters though is that Abbie is given a good love story on screen. No exes, no references to what it could have been. It doesn't need to take up much screentime. Just replace those stupidly annoying ichabbie shipper bait scenes, with Abbie and an actual love interest, who respects and appreciates her. She can be a badass the rest of the episode.

 

No, it does not matter if Abbie is given *any* good love story.  Why is that important on this kind of show?  Why is romance a requirement no matter what the story is about?  I find it refreshing when a show can set aside the romance angle for once and just focus on its main theme.  I didn't need Crane and Katrina either.

 

I don't see Abbie as a black woman, I see her as a woman.  Race doesn't have to be inserted into everything.  And there is another strong black woman on the show who gets to have romantic interests, so I think that base is being covered.

 

Is Crane a jerk?  Sometimes.  I also think he's a pretty cool guy who has handled the 200+ year time jump with remarkable aplomb.  I think he's very likable, and really you can lay the blame with the writers for the times he has been jerky, because it was mostly directly related to the Katrina mess in season 2, which the writers kind of acknowledged by killing off her and Henry.  I suspect that will no longer be an issue going forward.  I think you're really reading a lot into his character, "narcisistic psychopath" is a bit...ummm...harsh.  He was in jail and didn't even try to call Abbie for five days, that's not really odd. The whole scene was just to explain that they had gone their separate ways after the whole apocalypse thing because they needed time to decompress from all that.  Seeing each other right after makes it difficult to distance yourself from those events.  It was kind of traumatic with all that killing demons/killing your wife and son/stopping the end of the world stuff, you know?

 

 

But if your reason is just that you don't want the show to put the leads together on Yet Another Show, please realize you are not breaking the mold in saying that; you are not fighting stereotypes; you are not proposing anything new. You are arguing in favor of a very old and hoary TV trope: that a white man and a black woman should never get together romantically.

 

No, you're just saying that on this show you're not in favor of putting the leads together not because one's white and one's black, you're not in favor of it because their dynamic works best in this show when it's platonic and would be ruined if they became romantic.  This was even talked about extensively on this forum back in the first season.  You want to put a white/black couple together as leads in another show, great, all for it.  The desire to keep Ichabod and Abbie non-romantic is not about race.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Dobian

[cynic]

Look, I get how everyone is sick of knowing that almost every single show out there pairs up its male and female lead eventually. But do you know why you see that? Because almost every single female lead out there is white.

Go research it for yourself: think of all the biggest offenders out there that make you roll your eyes about Yet Another Show going down this road. What percentage of them have a white female lead? Then go crunch the numbers for white male leads and women of colour leads - how many of those go on to be an epic romance? That's not made by Sondra Rhimes, I mean?

Then go read up on feminism and intersectionality. I'll go ahead and spoil it for you: The boring trope of pairing the leads is almost always exclusive to white, hetero, cis-gendered people only. People who don't belong to that group don't get to see their representatives being the love of someone's life, and the percentage for that is lowest when the female lead is a black woman.

So I get it; I really do. If you are watching a show with a white man and woman, protest as loud as you can about putting the leads together if you want! It'd be a gutsy show who cast two attractive white and hetero people of the opposite sex and never caved into the pressure to put them together. (And then go watch the original CSI: Gil Grissom and Catherine Willows will warm the cockles of your heart.)

But on a show like this? Look, it's cool to say you don't see the chemistry, or that you hate Ichabod and just want to see him die, or that you ship Abbie with a different character. It's cool to have a specific reason why these two characters, in particular, do not work together romantically. But if your reason is just that you don't want the show to put the leads together on Yet Another Show, please realize you are not breaking the mold in saying that; you are not fighting stereotypes; you are not proposing anything new. You are arguing in favor of a very old and hoary TV trope: that a white man and a black woman should never get together romantically. If you crunched the numbers as I suggested above, you'll realize just how unusual that storyline actually is on television. Arguing in favor of a no-romo relationship is not going against the status quo; it's arguing for the status quo, and one based in racial prejudice in that.

I for one am all for Sleepy Hollow breaking new ground. I didn't see anything wrong with the chemistry in this episode. In fact, if Abbie had been a white character I would have definitely deduced, from the looks and the hugs and the general turn of events, that this was starting down the romance path.

This. So much this. Well said.

The only two-hander male/female show that I personally watch that has avoided putting the leads together is Elementary, which has a white male and Asian female as the stars. I can't think of any others. All the white male/white female partner shows I've seen eventually go there and usually telegraph the heck out of the relationship from early on. Even Fringe, which didn't start out as a partner show, eventually focused more and more on Olivia's and Peter's relationship to the point that their love story became, not only central to the show, but the catalyst to saving the world. And that was a show that easily could have kept them platonic considering the motivation for Olivia to start investigating Fringe events was the death of the love of her life and Peter and Walter's father/son relationship carried so much emotional weight on its own and was far more interesting to watch than a romance. Yet still, they went there by the second season.

As for ensemble shows (that aren't produced by Shonda), black females tend to get short shrift. They're usually the best friend who's only exists to support the story of others, the ' doesn't need a man' muscle, the ' doesn't need a man' boss, the (usually overweight) sassy comic relief, or the (usually overweight) sexless mothering type. Even when the character is portrayed by a conventionally attractive actress, she still typically gets no play. On TVD, Elena obviously gets the OTP romances, but Caroline got plenty of developed love stories over the years as well. Poor Bonnie got pretty much nothing until Jeremy and even that was nothing compared to the treatment that Caroline and Stefan's story is getting.

I was so excited to see the gorgeous Candace Patton cast as Iris West and was looking forward to seeing a black woman in an OTP romance, but the fandom backlash and aggressive shipping of Barry with pretty much everyone else, makes me wonder if it actually will ever happen for them.

[phoenics]

It's usually the black female characters paired with the lead white males that have gotten a HUGE backlash - unless they are penned by Shonda Rhimes (because then she makes the black female THE LEAD in her own right to avoid the issue altogether).

I remember Gwen from Merlin dealing with some really ugly hatred. Iris on the Flash as you said gets it tossed at her too (thankfully her fans mounted an Iris West Defense Squad after seeing what happened to Abbie Mills).

Even Uhura got hate from the Star Trek fandom.

It's a pervasive issue.

I do have hope that Westallen will happen on the Flash - I just worry they will take so long that the emotional impact will have been lost by then... if they keep throwing other women at Barry, fans will just root for those couples - sometimes I think the writers really underestimate the amount of internalized racism and sexism in the fandom. The internalized sexism is the main reason why Laurel was so dragged - and they failed in writing her. But even in those failures in writing, Oliver was written WORSE and yet he's still beloved by the fandom. Felicity was popular mostly because she was fan service and a Mary Sue (sorry - but that's exactly what she is) and the moment they allowed her to be more than Ollie's cheerleader, the fandom turned on her.

[phoenics]

Bringing this over from the I, Witness thread in response to Dobian's post:
 

No, it does not matter if Abbie is given *any* good love story?  Why is that important on this kind of show?  Why is romance a requirement no matter what the story is about?  I find it refreshing when a show can set aside the romance angle for once and just focus on its main theme.  I didn't need Crane and Katrina either.

But we had them - and there are many fans who don't want to see Abbie NOT get a romance - because the Strong Black Woman trope is played out and old as hell. I'm a black woman and I'm sick and tired of seeing black women on shows represented as nearly asexual or practically invisible. I'm sick of it. It took a black producer - Shonda Rhymes - to actually break that mold and I refuse to go back.

If I can't get Ichabbie right now, then I still want to see a fuller life for Abbie - that means romance, family - ALL OF IT. Everything Crane got, I want for Abbie.

Don't get me wrong - I don't want romance to take over the show - but romance IS a part of life and part of showing the fullness of a character is to show the fullness of his/her life. So, while I don't want Mills Family Drama the same way we got Crane Family Drama - I do want the show to delve into all parts of Abbie. She's a woman - so romance should be there.

 

I don't see Abbie as a black woman, I see her as a woman.  Race doesn't have to be inserted into everything.  And there is another strong black woman on the show who gets to have romantic interests, so I think that base is being covered.

You know, whenever I hear the "race doesn't have to be inserted into everything" comment with respect to a character, it usually precedes an attempt to erase certain characteristics of that character.

Well sorry, but Abbie is a black woman. A BLACK WOMAN. She's BLACK. It means that she's subject to certain tropes that Hollywood has leveled on black women characters since the beginning of Hollywood. It does mean that she's important to me and other black women in terms of seeing someone onscreen who looks like us. It's important to write the character well and to show all aspects of her life - not just the part that intersects with the white dude (whose full life we always get to see).

Race matters. Representation matters. And when some try to ignore it with "colorblind" platitudes (colorblindness actually contributes to structural racism: http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/02/colorblindness-adds-to-racism/), it causes more problems than it solves.

And I cannot ignore that the lead female on this show gets shunted aside and treated as though she's just a trope. Race isn't being "inserted" into this - race is already in it because Abbie is, in fact - black. When I talk about how racism impacts my life, I'm not INSERTING racism - I'm speaking to how it impacts my life.

The trope of a female black lead being relegated to work horse or mammy or servant, or sassy side kick (where we don't get to see her life at all outside of how she intersects with her white male lead - whose life we DO get to see) is played out. It's old. It's RACIST and I'm sick of it.

So - that being said - Jenny getting to kiss some dude because a skeevy writer threw that in to satisfy his own lust doesn't count - ESPECIALLY when Jenny's entire character was usurped into said male love interest. Meaning - HE TOOK OVER Jenny's role and job on the show and she was ONLY there for romantic scenes with him.

NO. WRONG.

There is so much wrong with the sentiment that since Jenny got those scraps last season that everything is okay. I don't even know what to say to that thought except that I vehememently disagree.
 

No, you're just saying that on this show you're not in favor of putting the leads together not because one's white and one's black, you're not in favor of it because their dynamic works best in this show when it's platonic and would be ruined if they became romantic.  This was even talked about extensively on this forum back in the first season.  You want to put a white/black couple together as leads in another show, great, all for it.  The desire to keep Ichabod and Abbie non-romantic is not about race.

Actually I think we've been really specific to say that for fans who are ONLY saying that they don't want Ichabbie because of the generic "Keep them platonic because it's been done to death" - we are saying that it HAS NOT been done hardly AT ALL for black female/white male leads together on a show. It would NOT BE PROGRESSIVE to keep things platonic on this show. That would just be keeping the status quo.

Representation matters.

 

Also - I was here for those discussions last season and it's YOUR OPINION - not a consensus - that says the show would be ruined.  Many would disagree with you.

Edited October 6, 2015 by phoenics

[Trini]

My $0.02:

The only two-hander male/female show that I personally watch that has avoided putting the leads together is Elementary, which has a white male and Asian female as the stars. I can't think of any others. All the white male/white female partner shows I've seen eventually go there and usually telegraph the heck out of the relationship from early on. ...

 

Also Ugly Betty -- and yes, Betty was a Latina woman.

 

 

I do have hope that Westallen will happen on the Flash - I just worry they will take so long that the emotional impact will have been lost by then... if they keep throwing other women at Barry, fans will just root for those couples -

[if it helps -a little - Patty should be last love interest (from the comics) introduced. ]

[phoenics]

"Should" being the operative word, lol.

[kimberella]

Tumblr user catlovesmocalike posted this wonderful piece about Nicole Beharie's use of her remarkable acting talents in this season premiere and how hard she's trying to make up for lack of good writing for Abbie Mills. It's rather long, but a very interesting read.

 

A few excerpts:

 

The fans of Sleepy Hollow have provided some critiques of the failure of the Sleepy Hollow writing team to render Abigail Mills’ character more complex and more multi-faceted by accounting for the collective imagery of black women [snip] Black women are expected to bear any pain in silence. In fact, at times, creatives take a twisted pleasure in constantly putting black women in positions of pain while denying their ability to react to said pain.

The show has allowed virtually everyone but Abbie to react, to show concern, to withdraw their trust. She must endure like a good black woman, she has to carry the work load and take care of everyone. Shut up and endure. Support horrid people against all sense of self-preservation, because black women's mental and physical health are always at the bottom of the list, when it comes to priorities.

 

In this premiere Abbie lost once more a teammate. Last season, Abbie lost her boss. Last season, Abbie was also literally stuck in a level of hell.  There has yet to be a scene where we see Abbie grieve– and I am talking about ugly, messy, everything-feels-irreconcilable crying.

Abbie is losing people, who are important to her, in real time. Yet the script insists that Crane is the priority and that her role is to provide comfort for him. She doesn't matter, her main purpose is to support him. The arrow of "friendship" is always pointing in one direction. There is only one main character in this show and the season premiere made it very clear, but I guess that's okay as long as the promise of Ichabbie exists. 

 

Understandably, it is still early in the Season to judge whether the writing team and producers of the show will be able to finally deliver on these  requests/suggestions that fans have been making since Season One.

Maybe it's too soon, maybe not. I consider this episode a declaration of intentions, because even after all the criticism and the changes they promised, this is what they chose to do:

 

Indeed, in terms of emotional space, Crane occupied the grand majority of the screentime with no clear competition. The narrative takes us through Crane’s emotions upon grieving the death of his wife and child (see, Crane gets to grieve Abbie doesn’t)

 

 

[phoenics]

I think Abbie not being allowed to grieve or show grief or have real time spent on her pain is really problematic. I think in the Pilot they managed this really well - there are several scenes of Abbie "grieving" in her own way... when she's in Corbin's office looking through his stuff and then when she has the vision of him. There is one really poignant one of when Crane watches her at Corbin's funeral - but I hesitate to include that because it's through Crane's eyes (though sometimes that can be a powerful storytelling mechanism).

I do wish they'd let Abbie crack just once - I think it's part of the way her character has been set up - and right now I cannot tell if that's solely because she's black, or because they characterized Abbie as the stoic one. Jenny is far more emotional than Abbie.

I'm trying to give it a chance - but at the moment I just cannot compare her FBI Boss to Corbin and say that's the same kind of loss. But at the same time, I don't want to see her lose anything else either, so ...

[jhlipton]

Well sorry, but Abbie is a black woman. A BLACK WOMAN. She's BLACK.

I remember seeing a quote that went something like "The first thing you must do is see that I am black. The second thing you must do is see that I am more than black."

I have a "swirl" (interracial) marriage, so maybe it helps me see institutional racism a bit more clearly, but I "grokked" this right away. Race is important in America -- it shouldn't be, but it is. To deny someone's race, to talk of a "a level playing field" or "playing the Race Card" (which out to be a tree festooned with "strange fruit" or a depiction of the Tulsa Riot), is to deny reality.

On the other hand, to only see race, is to deny a person their humanity. Abbie is BLACK, and a WOMAN and those are very important. She's also, by training and passion, a law enforcement officer; a sarcastic wit; a highly intelligent person. The show will work best when it keeps all of that in mind.

 

ETA: One thing I love about this forum is that we have a large group of black female posters.  Seeing the different perspectives, as well as the commonalities, that come from different life experiences is a real treat.  (I love you all, even the ones I disagree with most).  (I sincerely hope this doesn't come off as mansplaining!)

Edited October 6, 2015 by jhlipton

[HalcyonDays]

I do wish they'd let Abbie crack just once - I think it's part of the way her character has been set up - and right now I cannot tell if that's solely because she's black, or because they characterized Abbie as the stoic one. Jenny is far more emotional than Abbie.

 

Oh definately. It's how I always saw those two (three). Crane and Jenny are the emotional, more prone to displaying their feelings openly . Abbie is the logical one, the one who bottles up her emotions, pushes everything away and with her stiff upper lip, pushes past it all. When Abbie does break - and she will - it will be epic, in the sense that the breakdown will be unexpected and unlike her and so devastating (can't get the words right).

 

I'll compare again to the show Castle, where they have Beckett with the same issue. Nothing is due with race (she's white). Mostly the successful woman trope, but basically, she builds up her walls (that's the term they always mention on the show, Castle taking down Beckett's walls), because of her past traumas, and works like a dog, is too focused and emotionally detached from everything, and only cares about finding truth and justice in her work. It's a coping mechanism, just like what we see with Abbie.

 

That's why it would be nice if Jenny and Crane could help break down those Abbie-Walls.

[jhlipton]

I'm making this a separate post, and bringing it over from I, Witness:
 

I am not sure if by the American Revolution if Britain was actually backing off of slavery - were they?  If so, that would be super awesome to touch on in the show.  Talk about something fun to write.  But they won't do it, lol.  The furthest they'd go is talking about Jefferson and Sally Hemmings.

See the Wiki article on British slave trade.It's interesting to compare the Somersett case (1772) with the Fugitive Slave Act: in Britain, if a slave touched British soil, they were free; in Americaq, if a slave reached a Free State, the could still be returned to their "owner".  So, I'd say that Britain was way ahead of the Colonials in terms of dropping that "peculiar institution".

 

Oh and btw, "State's rights" --> the ones in question for the Civil War was always the "state's right to own slaves", lol.  The secession documents make that crystal clear - but I agree, they usually "whitewash" (heh) that when it's taught in schools.  Hence why so many people are really ignorant as to the reality of what happened.  Once you read through some states' secession documents though, it becomes crystal clear.

If nothing else, the Fugitive Slave Act demolishes the fairy tale (still widely believed) that the Civil War was fought over State's Rights.  Free States didn't have the right to protect their own citizens from kidnapping!

[phoenics]

I remember seeing a quote that went something like "The first thing you must do is see that I am black. The second thing you must do is see that I am more than black."

I have a "swirl" (interracial) marriage, so maybe it helps me see institutional racism a bit more clearly, but I "grokked" this right away. Race is important in America -- it shouldn't be, but it is. To deny someone's race, to talk of a "a level playing field" or "playing the Race Card" (which out to be a tree festooned with "strange fruit" or a depiction of the Tulsa Riot), is to deny reality.

On the other hand, to only see race, is to deny a person their humanity. Abbie is BLACK, and a WOMAN and those are very important. She's also, by training and passion, a law enforcement officer; a sarcastic wit; a highly intelligent person. The show will work best when it keeps all of that in mind.

 

ETA: One thing I love about this forum is that we have a large group of black female posters.  Seeing the different perspectives, as well as the commonalities, that come from different life experiences is a real treat.  (I love you all, even the ones I disagree with most).  (I sincerely hope this doesn't come off as mansplaining!)

I really hope you didn't infer from my reply to Dobian (who is the one who invoked the "why does race have to be inserted into everything?") that I am pushing for Abbie to only be seen as a black woman?

That went without saying - I was specifically addressing HIS problematic comments and didn't feel the need to add the "but she shouldn't only be seen as if she's black".

I think I understand that sentiment pretty well - I am a black woman and I am proud of it - but I simply don't want to be stereotyped by your (general "your" as in society's) assumptions about what a black woman should be. Or limited by it - the strong black woman trope and mammy and sassy sidekick tropes are cases of society deeming certain emotions of black women impossible (we can't be vulnerable or soft, or loved apparently) and that's what I'm arguing against. When we ignore race - especially when a character has already been marginalized by the aforementioned tropes all it does is keep the status quo of marginalizing them. It doesn't allow for the discussion to go into the "because Abbie is black, these tropes are REALLY bad because x, y, z."

If you were attempting to "correct" me on that, then I clearly wasn't clear enough and maybe could have been clearer. I guess I just thought I didn't have to be.

If you were just speaking in general and adding to what I said, then okay.

Edited October 6, 2015 by phoenics

[jhlipton]

I really hope you didn't infer from my reply to Dobian (who is the one who invoked the "why does race have to be inserted into everything?") that I am pushing for Abbie to only be seen as a black woman?

If you were just speaking in general and adding to what I said, then okay.

 

I absolutely didn't infer that -- I was indeed adding to what you said.  Sorry if I wasn't clear!

[phoenics]

^^^ I think we're clear now, lol!

[fantique]

Sigh... This is probably not going to end well but I thought it, wrote it so what the hell, arguing is fun. I have a thought on the "why can't this be a show where the two leads don't bone" thing.

 

While I am 100% on board with telling a person that "hey maybe your incessant need to dismiss their chemistry is a manifestation of internalised and structural racism, so I would watch out for that." What if that same person has said the same thing about Bones? And stopped watching once they got together. Felt the same about Castle, and did the same when they got together (I certainly checked the fuck out). I think the whole "well wish for friendship somewhere else" thing is kind of extreme. Because one, people can want whatever they want out of the show they watch but also two, they are allowed to feel fatigue over the same beats being hit.

Yes she's black, but unless you watch sleepy hollow thinking "oh look at Abbie being black drinking tea", after a while, the beats of skeptical left brain leading lady softens up thanks to her right brain partner who offers up a whole new world of feelings and not acting like a robot is going to sound a little too familiar. Also usually coupled with the woman losing all their biting charm that made them interesting in the first place. It doesn't have to be that they don't want two characters looking like Tom & Nicole together, it's just that every single procedural with this formula they watch, they express the same desire to see the leads remain platonic. Not saying that is the case for everyone who uses that reason for not wanting them romantically (I know it is not), but I think automatically assuming it's because they don't want (consciously or not) a bi-racial couple is short changing them. Because if that person has been asking for that for every single show they watch, then it's not because it's NB playing Abbie. They are just experiencing fatigue that is understandable. The argument isn't that Sleepy Hollow should be the one where they stay friends but more that it would be nice for those weary viewers if they stayed friends.

Of course you guys are experiencing another type of fatigue that is more than understandable but I don't see anyone (well...except for me) giving you a hard time over it. I mean, have you guys only heard it said "I just want them to stay friends" in shows where the female half of the duo is non-white in the past few years? I certainly heard it with Bones and Castle, and others probably groan about it in other shows I never watched too.

 

I think the Flash example is a much more cut and dry one because honestly, it's canon, it's not a procedural and they are not a crime solving duo. If they're the same whiners that bitch and moan about Olicity not being canon (ugh) and yet don't want Barry and Iris together, well it's easier to see what their real problem is. There is probably also that extremely sexist nerd thing where they get pissed that the object of their hero's affection is not all blubbery and swooning at him bestowing the greatest honour of his wuv upon her. RME, hard.

[Julia]

whiners that bitch and moan about Olicity not being canon (ugh)

 

Wow, really? I find the storyline of Scandal problematic - if they're determined to have her as the Helen of Troy of Washington DC, at least take advantage of it being, you know, the twenty-first century and give Helen a little autonomy instead of having her constantly thrown off her feet by the men in her life like she's living at the surf line - but it never crossed my mind that anyone could think there was too little Olicity in it. Olicity is something like twenty percent of the screen time, and when they're not showing Olicity the other characters are reacting to it.

[phoenics]

Hey fantique - I agree with you that some of the fans who don't want Ichabbie because they've seen it elsewhere and are fatigued by it have a right to feel that way. For them, it's progressive to keep the two leads apart. In S1-S2, the way the show did that was by giving the white dude ALL of the romantic life play, as well as the full life play. Meaning, we got to see his WHOOOOLLLLLEEEEE life - not just witnessing. While Abbie - well we saw NONE of her life outside of Crane really - except Jenny - but all of that was with Crane.

Thus, it's no longer progressive to say keep them apart because it's <insert white feminist view of shipping and female leads and romance here>. It actually becomes REGRESSIVE - especially since Abbie got shunted to the background. The show seems to be correcting - by giving Abbie a fuller life and a love interest. And it still might do Ichabbie - I think some of the anger at the show and the former show runner is that they were literally trying to KILL it and nearly did when most shows would KILL for that kind of chemistry and would NEVER kill it if there were two white leads.

Never.

And no one is saying that we should look at Abbie like she's drinking tea and black - but to ignore that she's black when conveniently you also get to keep Ichabbie from being canon when EVERYONE talks about their chemistry (even more than the examples you mentioned of folks wanting them to stay separate like Bones and Castle) just isn't fair, imo.

It's like - THIS is the show they are finally going to keep the 2 leads apart on? THIS show? Why not any of the million other shows with white/white leads. Not the one of FIVE (wow we gained another one!) dramas (in the history of television) produced on network television with a black female lead and a white male lead.

So - yeah - if you rooted for all of the other shows to not have their leads together and CAMPAIGNED for it like you do on Sleepy Hollow (general you, not specific you), then cool. But if not and you (general you) are literally obsessed with keeping Ichabbie apart but didn't nearly get this worked up on the other shows, then you might (general you) ask yourself why that is.

 

Wow, really? I find the storyline of Scandal problematic - if they're determined to have her as the Helen of Troy of Washington DC, at least take advantage of it being, you know, the twenty-first century and give Helen a little autonomy instead of having her constantly thrown off her feet by the men in her life like she's living at the surf line - but it never crossed my mind that anyone could think there was too little Olicity in it. Olicity is something like twenty percent of the screen time, and when they're not showing Olicity the other characters are reacting to it.

Olicity is Oliver Queen and Felicity Smoak from Arrow. You're thinking of Olitz which is Olivia and Fitz, lol.

And btw, fantique - sadly what you mentioned about folks shipping Olicity to death and then railing against Westallen happens CONSTANTLY.

Edited October 6, 2015 by phoenics

[DJG1122]

Fantique and Phoenics, I'm finally beginning to understand what you are saying. I have been one of the "race doesn't matter" with an attractive woman lead and attractive man lead being paired romantically. You are saying that white leading women and white leading men are paired romantically most, if not all, of the time. If I understand what you are saying, there are very few shows with POC women leads with white men leads and NONE that are romantically paired. If Abbie and Ichabod are romantically paired, this would be a first and a big step in changing the way TV looks at pairing leads romantically. Once pairing between white and non-white leads becomes the norm, THEN it will be a case of "race doesn't matter.

Edited October 7, 2015 by DJG1122

[phoenics]

Fantique and Phoenics, I'm finally beginning to understand what you are saying. I have been one of the "race doesn't matter" with an attractive woman lead and attractive man lead being paired romantically. You are saying that white leading women and white leading men are paired romantically most, if not all, of the time. If I understand what you are saying, there are very few shows with POC women leads with white men leads and NONE that are romantically paired. If Abbie and Ichabod are romantically paired, this would be a first and a big step in changing the way TV looks at pairing leads romantically. Once pairing between white and non-white leads becomes the norm, THEN it will be a case of "race doesn't matter.

Exactly - except Olivia and Fitz are paired (sorta) on Scandal... Iris and Barry *might eventually* be paired - but technically Grant Gustin is the main lead for that show, even if CP is the female lead...

But I think that when we approach the number of pairings with black women on network shows being paired up always with their costars (regardless of race - but right now they only seem to be paired up with white men anyway nowadays), THEN we can move to the "oh, let some of them be platonic now" and it can be progressive then instead of the regression it would be now.

Given that there are so few black women ever shown in a romantic light on network tv though - I defer to that first because it's so important from a representation perspective.

Since black women have already been shown in their roles to this point (supporting roles) as sassy sidekicks, women with no romantic lives, women with no lives except to prop up their white castmates, angry black women, strong black women, mammies, etc.. then the ONE thing we've NOT seen with them until Olivia on Scandal was romance and a full life actually shown onscreen.

[jhlipton]

Not the one of FIVE (wow we gained another one!) dramas (in the history of television) produced on network television with a black female lead and a white male lead.

 

1. Scandal --  I haven't watched, but isn't one of the core things from the get-go the affair between Olivia and Fitz?  I understand they've dropped that a bit, but I was under the impression it was back on.

 

2. HTGAWM -- The only lead is Viola Davis (Annalise).  It's an open question as to whether she can love anyone, but she's had sex with a white man, a black man and a white woman.  There are weird Oedipus-type vibes between her and a mixed man.

 

3. Minority Report -- Right now (3 episodes in -- LOL), Vega's not romantically linked to anyone.  But it's clear she's a sexual, loving woman and if the show survives, she could be linking up with one of the two non-lead regulars.  (If she links up with either, I don't expect her to take any s**t from him.  She certainly doesn't take any now.

 

4. Sleepy Hollow -- This really is the show that sparked the whole "intersectionality" debate across the internet (since the relationships on Scandal and HTGAWM are even more screwed up than Ichabbie) -- the first episodes had a healthy playful relationship that, if it blossomed into romance, could be seen as the standard trope, or as ground-breaking, depending on where one fell on the white-white vs non-white/white debate.

 

5. The Flash??? -- I don't know near enough about save for the fact that the canon black woman has been shoved aside for the non-canon white woman.

 

(I would cite Castle as a special case of white/white, since that was envisioned as a romance from the get-go.)

 

I think we're seeing a much wider spectrum of relationships for black women (certainly in the first 3), and that's a Good Thing.  We can certainly do with more!

[phoenics]

Yes - but please keep in mind that this is a new trend. Scandal was the first EVER - and still... that was only 4 years ago. And that's only FIVE. Out of how many others where it's white/white? I can't even count all of those up. There are so many.

And just so it's clear - Scandal was first, following IMMEDIATELY in the next season by Sleepy Hollow... HTGAWM came last year and then MR is this year. The Flash came last year too.

And the backlash against the actress portraying Iris (and even hate for the character) on the Flash has been rampant since she was cast. There are some clear and ugly cases of racism and fandom effery going on there. It's very frustrating - especially when the cast backs it up in some way. Tonight, Katie Cassidy from Arrow - who had her lead spot TAKEN by EBR (who plays Felicity) actually tweeted out in support of Grant Gustin and a supporting actress - but left out Candice and even Carlos Valdes. Twitter lit her up as they should have. The worst part is that she's basically contributing to erasure - even after what happened to her. I'll NEVER cape for her again.

Scandal was the first and Olitz is at the heart of the show - but the relationship is problematic at best. I do like that Olivia is seen as desirable and we get to see her whole life... her relationship with Fitz is my least fave part because it's toxic and I get a Jefferson/Hemmings vibe from it. But everyone on the show is shady so I guess it's supposed to be okay? Meh. I think Fitz is an ass, lol.

HTGAWM and Scandal are kinda unfair to include though - Shonda Rhymes is behind both of them.. but it's worth noting that Viola Davis said that she never thought she'd be able to play a sexual being onscreen ever as a black woman... and that she was so grateful that they show her as a full woman. Not just a caricature or a trope.

I feel like we aren't stating the historic nature of what is happening right now. This is truly historic.

[Miss Dee]

I can see. And take out Shonda Rhimes-driven shows, and how many do you have left? And how many have a Bones or Castle or X-Files type of relationship arc built into the story? Minority Report's ratings are in the tank and it's likely to be cancelled. So that leaves Sleepy Hollow and Flash.

On the other hand, what show was it that had a white man/woman of colour in the leads, where they hit those Bones/Castle type beats early in the series, only to swerve and put the white male with another white character somewhere in the second or third season once the shipping tide was in full swing? I heard it mentioned during the Katrina days, but it wasn't one I watched so I can't remember the name. Have there been a lot of shows that went that course (killing a romance between the leads stone dead)?

Edited October 7, 2015 by Miss Dee

[kimberella]

That's why it would be nice if Jenny and Crane could help break down those Abbie-Walls.

I hope that's what Daniel is here for, although I'm prepared for disappointment. Something tells me he'll get the Luke treatment.

[phoenics]

I can see. And take out Shonda Rhimes-driven shows, and how many do you have left? And how many have a Bones or Castle or X-Files type of relationship arc built into the story? Minority Report's ratings are in the tank and it's likely to be cancelled. So that leaves Sleepy Hollow and Flash.

On the other hand, what show was it that had a white man/woman of colour in the leads, where they hit those Bones/Castle type beats early in the series, only to swerve and put the white male with another white character somewhere in the second or third season once the shipping tide was in full swing? I heard it mentioned during the Katrina days, but it wasn't one I watched so I can't remember the name. Have there been a lot of shows that went that course (killing a romance between the leads stone dead)?

Was that Twisted? I still don't know if the black actress was a lead or top billed. There were three of them and she was eventually shoved aside for the other actress - and that was a pretty blatant example.

King Tut kinda rectified that though - they got her and the lead guy in that together... so fans got some solace from that I think. But Twisted still leaves a bad taste in the mouth for how they treated her.

I hope that's what Daniel is here for, although I'm prepared for disappointment. Something tells me he'll get the Luke treatment.

I actually have the same worry.

Edited October 7, 2015 by phoenics

[fantique]

Wow, really? I find the storyline of Scandal problematic - if they're determined to have her as the Helen of Troy of Washington DC, at least take advantage of it being, you know, the twenty-first century and give Helen a little autonomy instead of having her constantly thrown off her feet by the men in her life like she's living at the surf line - but it never crossed my mind that anyone could think there was too little Olicity in it. Olicity is something like twenty percent of the screen time, and when they're not showing Olicity the other characters are reacting to it.

Oh I wasn't saying they want more Olicity, I am saying some people are against it because it is not comic book canon in the Green Arrow source material since it's an adaptation. As for the Scandal thing, that's what made me laugh. Either she is the whore to poor little Mellie's Madonna or she is Helen of Troy, who is just dumb. No agency. BUT, white guys will totes hit that so...yay?

 

Hey fantique - I agree with you that some of the fans who don't want Ichabbie because they've seen it elsewhere and are fatigued by it have a right to feel that way. 1) For them, it's progressive to keep the two leads apart. In S1-S2, the way the show did that was by giving the white dude ALL of the romantic life play, as well as the full life play. Meaning, we got to see his WHOOOOLLLLLEEEEE life - not just witnessing. While Abbie - well we saw NONE of her life outside of Crane really - except Jenny - but all of that was with Crane.

2) So - yeah - if you rooted for all of the other shows to not have their leads together and CAMPAIGNED for it like you do on Sleepy Hollow (general you, not specific you), then cool. But if not and you (general you) are literally obsessed with keeping Ichabbie apart but didn't nearly get this worked up on the other shows, then you might (general you) ask yourself why that is.

 

Olicity is Oliver Queen and Felicity Smoak from Arrow. You're thinking of Olitz which is Olivia and Fitz, lol.

3) And btw, fantique - sadly what you mentioned about folks shipping Olicity to death and then railing against Westallen happens CONSTANTLY.

1) See, I feel like the use of 'progressive' has a meta-societal connotation to it here when most of my point is that it's TV and it gets boring sometimes. So no, it's not really about being progressive and more about reducing the time spent eye-rolling. Because what accompanies that whole "the two leads get together" is the sometimes randomness/lack of believability of the pairing. Here, they have chemistry, not going to pretend they don't, but that's pretty much it at this point...and has been it since the end of season 1. I know that with Castle, watching them work together was no longer fun and that was what the show centred around. Maybe they recovered, but I didn't stick around to find out. And Bones, they never really had anything that made me lean in and want to watch them together really, the draw was their clashing views making it a good combo for crime solving. But then they got married, and you can(t sell married people who have such fundamentally different ideals and have them work for more than a season. How do they solve that? Make Brennan less...Brennan!

On Scandal, I can't enjoy that this smart, kind and capable woman is a lead and is black and everyone is on board with that because she is no longer smart nor capable...and is a kind of shitty person now. On top of that, the narration tries to convince me that I want her and the asshole I have to buy is the love of her life, who is so shitty they create a vortex of suckiness, together. How am I supposed to enjoy this? 

Just stating your opinion on a public forum doesn't mean you're campaigning. I am not campaigning against Ichabbie, I just like to elaborate and work out what bothers me about it. Not everyone watches TV as an exercise in activism, it's ok if you do. But that doesn't mean that someone who wants to see the opposite is campaigning against your wishes, they just won't to co-sign your petition.

 

2) I wholeheartedly agree with this paragraph. Why do you think I kept bugging that Katrina fan boy last season whenever he would whine about how, all else remaining equal, if Abbie was white and Katrina was black, nobody would be pushing for Crane to ditch the useless witch for Abbie? Like anyone was asking that. Idiot.

 

3) As for liking Olicity and not liking WestAllen, it might be whatever but it's not antithetic. Not the way railing on about comics canon and wanting Lauriver because it's canon, but not wanting WestAllen is. In one situation, both are non-canon ships that are supported. In the other both are canon pairings but only one, with the white female lead, is supported. This is a clearer case and that's what I meant. 

 

And I get the reasoning behind the idea that normalised bi-racial relationship on TV, certainly letting the pairings happen when they are organically shifting in that direction, is something to look forward to and a needed step in story telling evolution. BUT, there needs to be quality control. Right now, after discussing in the relationship thread, I don't feel like most people on this forum think Ichabod actually deserves Abbie or is good for her but the reasoning "oh, well it has to be that way though". Why? Because if you take away the meta of Ichabod being the male lead, what, in the story, is showing that Abbie is valued by being his girlfriend if there is little evidence that he will treat her better than he does now as a friend? The goal should be to have writers put out stories where the WoC is being valued and respected and it's shown using something other than, "well..the main dude wants to bone her! And he's white! Double points!" 

 

Let's see...

• Olivia Pope is not treated with real respect by Fitz (he tried to buy her, not ransom her, buy her with the country's money and that's the last I've seen because I was thoroughly disgusted) or any other regular/recurring man on the show really.

 

• Annaliese was married to a creepy student coveting possible murderer, I don't know much because I don't think I watched past the 3rd/4th episode (I wanted to binge watch it during the summer because I can't take the wait between episodes but life/lack of proper internet got in the way). I don't know what that says or doesn't say TBH, but I am glad that is just one part of the story and not the driving force. I do have a huge woman crush on Viola Davis though. The character is strong and the relationship stuff is complimentary to her struggle.

 

• They are definitely playing up MG's physical appeal on Minority Report but not much to go on there.

 

• SH, doesn't really address Abbie's looks/attractiveness (except when they introduce a guy with LOVE INTEREST stamped on his forehead) but the story was not originally trying to put the leads together, it was meant to be all wacky fun. They pretty much wrote Abbie without most gender/racial specific markers some characters come with. Amazing chemistry, regardless of its nature, and the writers got taken aback since they never wrote it in as a possible outcome and tried really fucking hard to show how much they don't have romantic chemistry in season 2 which screwed them over. I don't begrudge them not ever putting on the table like other shows because it really wasn't the idea and the script didn't try to create romantic tension. I also don't believe the creators made it so because it was a black actress playing her since that was the plan before casting Nicole. Now there can be suspicion that they were ok with casting a black woman since they weren't going to "go there" anyway. Now that wouldn't surprise me, unfortunately.

 

• The flash. This is the most obvious case of racist pushback on the fan side. On the writers/production side, I don't see any shenanigans. I don't think Caitlin is anywhere close to "taking Iris' place" territory really but it might be because I couldn't give less shits about that character. She doesn't have much chemistry with, well anyone to be frank. I don't feel like the writers were trying to sabotage WestAllen, they just have a boner for Nolan-esque angst so of course they will introduce drama in the endgame OTP since the show will probably go on for a while until they get together. The same team introduced such ridiculous roadblocks to Olicity on Arrow (and they are committed to that) so I don't take it to mean they are diverging from the canon endgame with all present data. I do like Iris independently of Barry and think, when they weren't dumbing her down or have that girl (Lina?) act like she's a schemer, they created her as a good character on her own even with the LI arrows pointing at her.

 

From this list, the only positive/healthy romantic set up is WestAllen. She's adorable, he's adorable, they can be adorable together. She actually acts like his best friend and he clearly loves and appreciates her very much. The story created her as a integral and valuable part of the show and they didn't make the mistake of dragging out the reveal of his powers. She doesn't have any of the tropes attached to her. If Sleepy Hollow wants to commit to romantic Ichabbie, they need to change Ichabod's character so it's not a Scandal-like mess (yes, I am traumatised by how bad it got, I was so excited to start watching it last summer and binged through seasons 1-2 in less than a week and then...ugh, ugh, ugh). I am gratified to see that at least (so far) the narration puts value in Abbie and her feelings in her own right so that's half the battle to a good, positive representation of a relationship I would root for and want to see reproduced. Because other wise the pattern set up by Shondaland is "WoC with a guy who is awful for/to her and we're supposed to think that's ok/on par for the course" is a troubling one.

[jhlipton]

I feel like we aren't stating the historic nature of what is happening right now. This is truly historic.

 

Or for sure. I don'y mean to downplay what's happening right now -- it is great even if a lot of it is problematic. It is, at least, a start.

 

From this list, the only positive/healthy romantic set up is WestAllen.

It's interesting -- in my mind, Annalise is the opposite of Olivia and Abbie -- she's the one who treats her partners like s**t, who seems incapable of love.  Viola is able to take this fairly reprehensible woman and make her interesting and easy to relate to.

[phoenics]

Oh totes agree that the one healthy one is Westallen - although last night's premiere did give me pause because they "Magical Negro'ed" and "SBW-ed" Iris a bit (and I hope that doesn't continue)...

But yeah - the other relationships aren't the best. I think Ichabbie is floating in the middle between Westallen and the other two.

And I DO think we should have space for black women characters to be complex. But here's the thing: With a Shonda Rhymes produced show, you get the LAYERS.

With SH and The Flash, we aren't getting the layers - we are barely getting the PoV for Iris or Abbie. We aren't really seeing them as fully realized characters.

With Shonda you'll get fully realized and fleshed and out and FLAWED women characters whose sexuality is NOT ignored or treated offscreen.

With the other two shows... well... Sleepy Hollow might be getting better but The Flash had a huge setback with Iris last night. I think the writers are afraid to make her complex because of how racist the fandom is and how Iris got backlash for normal human emotions or for NOT being an obedient cheerleader (which she was last night in the premiere).

So I think for me, it's complex. I don't want to see a platonic thing forced when obviously the chemistry is calling out for more as in Sleepy Hollow. Because I know what most shows would do to have that - they would KILL FOR IT. AND I want to see fully realized characters who aren't forced into being either a stereotype/trope OR a "perfect nice girl with no flaws - a black Mary Sue" just to appease a racist fanbase.

It's complicated, I know.

I don't envy writers. I think the ones who are not black (sorry) struggle with how to handle this - and this is exactly why you need PoC advocates in the writer's room to help them navigate. And why you need PoC advocates at the Producer level. Matt Damon doesn't seem to understand this but when you look at the complexity of Olivia Pope/Annalise vs Abbie/Iris, you can see why. Abbie totally has the potential to get that complex and to show the fullness of her whole life, but the producers need to understand that they they might be missing the boat and make sure to have advocates in the writer's room.

Iris is on a CW show, so she's going to be less complex anyway - but even more so because racism. She's not allowed to be anything more than an obedient cheerleader by the fandom unfortunately.

[netlyon2]

Wow, this thread is moving!  Every time I think I have my thoughts together on one topic, you all have taken the discussion in a fascinating new direction.

 

I think what I really need to see is Ichabod (and, to a lesser extent, Jenny) supporting Abbie through something, anything.  Just straight up, "I'm here for you, none of my BS or baggage, what do you need" support.  For that to happen, though, the show has to give Abbie a personal life/interests.  The closest we've come so far (and one of my favorite Season 1 scenes) is when Jenny took Abbie aside after Ichabod redrew the map.  Jenny laid it out there: that she loved Abbie, wanted the best for Abbie, didn't want Abbie to be taken advantage of, and would be there for Abbie if anything went wrong.  I can't think of another scene in the shows run when anyone (except for Andy, who was working for the bad guy) expressed those feelings for her.  Of course, even that was just setup for the dollhouse and Jeremy revelation.

 

The show also needs to stop punishing Abbie for trusting in her witness bond.  She said it best in Season 2, her weakness is her faith in Ichabod.  Starting with burning that damn map to Purgatory, Ichabod failed to come througheach time Abbie put her faith in him for something big, and the show came up with a reason to justify his letting her down.  Then, the show would double down by faking like it was Abbie's choice ("I totally wanted to stay in Purgatory to face Moloch anyway; thanks for the ride!") or that she was equally at fault for something ("Well, Orion wanted to scourge evil from mankind, so that totally justifies letting the Horseman of Death run free!").  Really, the show has been written to run counter to the natural and satisfying character arc of having the self-sufficient skeptic put her faith in her partner.

 

What I realized about two pages ago in this thread, is that while I am totally an Ichabbie shipper (in favor of the slow burn while Ichabod gets his ish together), I want Abbie to end up with Captain Crane.  You know, the version of Ichabod from "Tempus Fugit" who wasn't a basket case of insecurity and manpain.  That guy, even though he spent half of the episode suspecting her of being a lunatic or spy, gave Abbie more support and partnership than man-out-of-time Ichabod did in two seasons.  Unfortunately, the show has spent so much time milking the CFD and fish-out-of-water Ichabod, that he hasn't been able to grow and evolve.  So, we get a scene of him looking for a house when he doesn't even have a job.  By focusing so much on his family drama and refusing to let him truly begin to integrate into the modern world, the show continues to make him a burden on Abbie, rather than a partner to her.  And awesome chemistry cannot stand alone; Abbie and Ichabod need to be true partners and equals.

 

On a somewhat related note, I really loved the scene that provided the title quote for this thread.  You go ahead, Abbie, with your gun and awesome awesomeness.  I've got your back.  (Also, I really need for them to pursue the story of Abbie's ancestor, Stony Dixon.)

[jhlipton]

Not the one of FIVE (wow we gained another one!) dramas (in the history of television) produced on network television with a black female lead and a white male lead...

 

I just realized we've left off one BW/WM and one WoC/WM -- Extant and Galavant.(possibly because they're both summer shows).

 

On Extant, Molly has had 4 relationships: Marcus Dawkins, a black man.  He was her lover before the show started.; Dr. John Wood, a white man; General Tobias Shepherd, a white man (off-screen -- it's unclear, at least to me, when their relationship took place); and "JD" Richter, a white man, her main companion (and co-lead) during Season 2.  Molly (and her "robot clone" Lucy) have never been presented as anything other than desirable.  Molly and John had a healthy (if a bit strained) relationship; Molly and JD do the "adversaries who fall in love dance" but they're shown as equal partners, both into the relationship.

 

Then we have Galavant. In this show the white love interest was shoved aside (by painting her as pretty despicable) for the woman of color. (the "anti-Flash"?)

 

(And I always love to mention Merlin, where Arthur's one true love (canon and show) is a black woman who plays a character named "The White Ghost")

[Miss Dee]

I loved Merlin! I believe certain parts of the fandom ragged hard on Angel Coulby too, pretty much for Daring to Play one of the Most Iconic Female Leads of all Medieval English Folklore While Black. But in that case, the producers pretty much double-downed on it rather than pull back.

I suppose you'd have to call Arthur and her supporting leads, though? Merlin was the central character of that show. It's not really the same dynamic as the Bones/Castle template.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Miss Dee

[phoenics]

Yes Merlin was one of my all time faves - but that was not a Hollywood produced show. It was a show from the UK anyway and the writers/producers were clearly committed to the story and to Angel. They even wrote a "TAKE THAT" story into the series by bringing on two love interests for Arthur and Gwen that "matched" them more in a traditional and race sense and then STILL had both Arthur and Gwen reject these "perfect" pairings in favor of each other...

THAT was awesome.

I wish those writers/producers were in the US... but it's clear the Brits weren't having any racism and weren't going to let fandom racism deter them from doing what they set out to do...

I still love them for it.

But yes - Angel was a supporting character... Merlin's Colin was the star. Bradley James was probably closest to a co-star and the show really was more about their bromance than Gwen and Arthur - but I still loved it.

And I don't count Extant - only because Halle Berry broke those barriers a long time ago and tends to transcend race whenever she's onscreen. She's enough of a draw that the racism arguments don't work with her. She's crossed over.

[Julia]

(And I always love to mention Merlin, where Arthur's one true love (canon and show) is a black woman who plays a character named "The White Ghost")

 

And the two best-looking men on the show are desperately in love with her...

[jhlipton]

I don't count Extant - only because Halle Berry broke those barriers a long time ago and tends to transcend race whenever she's onscreen. She's enough of a draw that the racism arguments don't work with her. She's crossed over.

 

I don't see how Berry "transcends race" -- I' think she transcends race unless and until she doesn't,  She does have "juice" -- from what I've heard, she insisted on the incredible diversity of Extant.  But the ratings for Extant were not great -- it's still a toss-up for a third season.  It's owned by CBS, which helps, but only has 26 episodes.  I do think it's relevant to a discussion of "swirl" relationships, however caveats you may have about the star.

[frenchtoast]

Just a quick heads up folks, please read the new announcement in the pinned Notes from the Mods topic. Thanks!