S03.E01: I, Witness

[Free]

Headless and the Golem fell into a plothole.

 

Maybe Pandora went around and sucked them into her box since the writers weren't going to use them anymore.

[phoenics]

The Ichabbie chemistry must be strong - way too many "No, they're BRO'S!!!" protests popping up out of the woodwork like zombie debts after you apply for a mortgage.

Me thinks some doth protest too much.

And we wonder why Goffman felt so compelled to force the chemistry-less Ichatrina on us - to prove I guess to some fans that Ichabbie wouldn't happen.

It's hilarious, actually.

[pcta]

 

Nikki Reed's voice totally took me out of the scene. She really needs to learn some voice projection or something. I may not be able to take her seriously otherwise even if her character turns out to be somewhat useful to the narrative.

Glad I wasn't the only one.

[fantique]

The Ichabbie chemistry must be strong - way too many "No, they're BRO'S!!!" protests popping up out of the woodwork like zombie debts after you apply for a mortgage.

Me thinks some doth protest too much.

And we wonder why Goffman felt so compelled to force the chemistry-less Ichatrina on us - to prove I guess to some fans that Ichabbie wouldn't happen.

It's hilarious, actually.

What makes me laugh is that, generally speaking, since people can't buy that friends of opposite genders that are straight can be friends without sexual undertones, some make it a bro thing. Just say friendship chemistry if you don't the attraction, because I have yet to see bros behave like Abbie and Crane. I have been in a bro friendship before, Ichabbie is not it. In fact my reluctance in seeing them romantic has nothing to do with a lack of chemistry and all to do with me not seeing what Abbie gets out of it. Actually I am now sick of chemistry being a big requirement for a relationships on shows by now, I need other reasons. Not saying there are absolutely none but they don't convince me.

 

I rewatched the S1 Pilot and I think this show has a ways to go.

I think original recipe Sleepy Hollow (1st season, first 11-12 episodes) had a lot of complexity that really drew you in. Part of it was finding out all of the details about Crane and what his deal was. But it also had beats of emotional complexity that tugged at you too. Andy was bad, but he still had this soft center that really, really worked and made him just as creepy - and kinda scary. Pandora seems to have a similar softness. The thing is though, Andy wasn't the big bad - Moloch was. And Moloch was TERRIFYING.

I've watched the pilot several times - but when Moloch came into that cell with Andy - there was genuine terror and fear in my heart. When he snapped Andy's head back - GENUINE fear. When Abbie came in and saw the blurred image of Moloch in the mirror and then Moloch did that fast blur movement in pieces, like "pfft pfft pfft" and then the mirror cracked - I screamed out loud AGAIN.

When Jenny was doing pull-ups and Moloch appeared behind her - I SCREAMED.

THAT is the sense of terror - layered terror that the show seems to have lost with its monsters. The only way Pandora works, imo, is if she is working for a much greater and more terrifying Big Bad - one that they can show in shadow and blurred - monsters are more terrifying when they are indirect. The fast movement, "pfft" sound and mirrors cracking - bring THAT back show! If every monster of the week is coming from her and we already know, etc., where is the mystery? Where is the terrible fear of not knowing what is coming and who is doing it?

WHO gave Pandora the box? Will we see him/her?

When will we see the real Big Bad (please let there be one other than Pandora) stalking Abbie and Jenny in the shadows? Appearing there and then not?

I miss that kind of scary on this show.

Also - the "whites of their eyes" was cute - but the twistory that this show made famous is deeper than a simple anecdote.

Hopefully now that the show has done its mea culpa it can get on with it.

Sometimes liking a post is not enough...so there!

 

Abbie and Crane don't have "bro" chemistry. Abbie is not a man.

This made me laugh. I can't agree more because even though it's possible with a girl/woman, I am a kind of a bro with my guy friends. Abbie is not. At all. If two guys behaved like they did, everybody would think they are gay for each other.

 

That screen chemistry isn't gone for me. It may have been a little muted, which makes sense to me given the separation of the characters for so long and under those circumstances, but it was definitely still there. Especially in comparison to the Ichabod/SBR scene.

Yeah I feel like it just changed because their dynamic changed. Chemistry doesn't mean positive vibes only. Antagonistic chemistry is a thing too. No they didn't feel like they belonged as a team and partners because they aren't at that point. They haven't seen each other in 9 months and before that she killed his son and he killed his wife to save her, and the rest of humanity. To pretend they are buddy-buddy when they reunite would be insulting to our intelligence. It's already a stretch that she is ready to go for another tribulation that he brought to her attention in one episode, which is why I am looking forward to some tension and doubt in the mission and each other. Be it doubt over its success or the team being strong enough... whatever, it just can't be water under the bridge.

 

I agree with this, but I also have to agree with the earlier poster and say that I wasn't particularly interested in them hitting this beat again. We've been there, done that with the character already. Let's find something fresher to do with Abbie. (This may be my dislike of the FBI job speaking, though. It's already completely unbelievable that she can balance the FBI and being a Witness, and it's only going to get worse.

I kind of feel like (and hope) it's the point. That it's not sustainable, she can't play at being a normal person. I want there to be a temptation away from the witness duty, for her to be hesitant and then commit fully again. It feels very impersonal at the moment, there needs to be weight behind the sacrifice of being a Witness or it can be that it's the only purpose one has (like Jenny and Crane). None on the team have real world attachment (yet) and I think I need to have that to be emotionally invested in them fighting and winning. Right now I feel as concerned for the world they live in as for the creepy maquette of the town Henry was making last fall. I need the heroes to falter, have a chance to fail at their job. Not because they're dumb or whatever but because they are human.

Edited October 4, 2015 by fantique

[CalamityBoPeep]

Also, how did Crane finance his European trip?

 

Well, if we're picking nits:

5. How did Crane get the money for his almost year-long walkabout?

 

 

At this point, I'd settle for some throwaway line about how that season 1 priest realized Ichabod would need funds whenever he awakened and had some gold dubloons sitting in a bank vault for the last two hundred years, with Ichabod's name on the ornately decorated box.  Or he appointed some major financial powerhouse, like Lloyd's of London, as the keeper of a trust for Ichabod.  Anything to indicate that Ichabod is truly independently wealthy now, and can easily afford to be taking extended walkabouts.

 

As far as the points regarding his treatment of Abby in Season 2, and how his character is seemingly permanently ruined, I think we're going to have to just go with Abby's level of forgiveness and fanwank that he must have said something to her at the end of the season, before he went on a walkabout.  Maybe along the lines of "look, I know my family drama has messed with our bond as witnesses, (etc, etc)... I think I really need to figure some things out."  I mean, she said he didn't contact her while he was delving into his roots, and maybe she didn't expect that silence from him , but I have no problem thinking that they sorted out the clusterfuck that was season 2 before he left, and that she knew he was going to leave for a little while.  If that's the case, then she just really needed to know why he dropped off the radar screen.  

 

But honestly, I've had friends pull similar disappearing acts when they've been depressed and confused, and unless I go seek them out, I could see it taking 9 months for them to show back up.  In that case a quick "WTF, mate?" would do the trick to get things back on track, but my deeper inclination would be to find out if that person is ok.  (Generally speaking, of course, I'm the annoying friend that will eventually track you down.  But not everyone is that way, and I can see Abby not being that way.)

 

Which is all to say, having our hopes up that the show will have Ichabod verbally issue a mea culpa about letting his horrible wife sidetrack him from his duty as a witness and his loyalty to Abby, and that he'll apologize where we get to see it and forgive him vicariously, is probably wishful thinking.  I'm happy to forgive him, if Abby does.  And she seems to have forgiven him, so I'm moving on from thinking he sucks as a human being.  If he behaves more like a bonded witness from here on out, I can accept that he's changed, and recognizes where his loyalties lie. 

 

As for him not calling her from jail... I'd think it'd be pretty embarrassing and maybe, in his humiliation, he was hoping to avoid bringing that front and center into their relationship, immediately upon his return, until his necklace (yeah, what was he doing still wearing that? <handwave>) went wonky.

[DearEvette]

Y'know at first I was like, 'Oh, Abbie, come on, you are not a doubter!!!' but then upon re-watch when I got a chance to actually watch the actors & pay a little more attention to what the actors were doing and a little less to what they were saying.  Nicole & Tom were doing their Nicole & Tom thing where they let their bodies (eyes, hands etc.) tell the story too. 

 

What I came away with was that Ichabod left & didn't call Abbie.  She went ahead to the FBI.  Nothing weird or demony was happening.  He didn't call her for nine months.  WHen he admitted he was in the detention center for 4 days before even calling her then, he looked shamefaced & she looked hurt.  In her mind nothing Apocalypse-y was happening the whole time he was gone.  So now he is back and suddenly wants her to believe demony stuff is happening again?  And, btw, that is the only reason he called her? Not because he was back, not because he was detained & needed her help, but only because she is a witness.  In the car ride when he said they weren't a team Abbie blinked again like she was hurt by his words.  So I could see why she would clap back at him on that front.  Not because she isn't a believer but because she doesn't want to feel that it suddenly convenient for him to remember he has a witness partner.  I felt the scene in the end was her really realizing why Crane acted the way he did.  He needs a purpose and a place and he felt he had neither.  So she needed to reassure him.

 

Also on second viewing, I liked Pandora more than I did on first viewing  The actress has charisma.  Once they got her away from her weird cloak and shadowy cave, she really clicked.  And yes, i felt  a little Hoyay! vibe  in her interaction with Abbie.

 

My second viewing thoughts on Betsy was no better than the first viewing.  I felt maybe I was judging her too harshly and the shock of her boobs overwhelmed any other impression I might have.  But no.  Her line readings were jarring.  She didn't feel like a woman of the 19th century.  Even wearing pants and a push up corset, a woman of her time would have still felt like a woman of her time. 

Edited October 4, 2015 by DearEvette

[RiddleyWalker]

OY! I'm am it conflicted, but agree overall with your points @Kimberella. 

There is a long way to go before an Ichabod/Abbie romantic relationship makes sense. I would add that, in real life, there are far more head-scratching pairings. I do hope that the writers make this relationship make sense from the viewpoint of an ordinary rational person. At this point, Ichabod had a lot of work ahead of him, I think.

[jhlipton]

Once Upon a Time is convinced that Regina is a "hero" in spite of all she's done and everyone she knows thinks so too.  I can wrap my head around some off-screen actions by Crane to put him right with Abbie a lot easier than Regina being on the side of good.  I love Mison and Beharie and love love love them together, so I'm willing to put up with a lot of hand-wavium.

[Dobian]

I really don't get at all how Abbie is painted as this undesirable black woman. She's always been written as this kickass woman. You think she was getting shortchanged because Katrina got to have the big romance story with Crane? I was glad Abbie wasn't mired in that, I want to see her out there, well, kicking ass! Abbie's worth as a character isn't defined based on how desirable the writers make her. Doesn't matter how many demons she slays, all that matters is if Crane falls in love with her. Not true. Come on, there are plenty of shows that do nothing but that. The Affair just started up another season on Showtime, lol. Let Sleepy Hollow be about supernatural villains and gonzo history. And let Abbie be the successful career cop who's now an FBI agent who happens to kill demons on the side.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Dobian

[kimberella]

In fact my reluctance in seeing them romantic has nothing to do with a lack of chemistry and all to do with me not seeing what Abbie gets out of it. Actually I am now sick of chemistry being a big requirement for a relationships on shows by now, I need other reasons.

Exactly.

 

As far as the points regarding his treatment of Abby in Season 2, and how his character is seemingly permanently ruined, I think we're going to have to just go with Abby's level of forgiveness and fanwank that he must have said something to her at the end of the season, before he went on a walkabout.

You see, that would be fine if he had done anything like that in the past on screen, but all he has done is treat her like dirt and get away with it every single time without apologies. He has always behaved like he's entitled to use her at will and dismiss her, when shinier things got his attention. There is no good reason for me to believe that changed, when we weren't looking. In fact, he displayed the same old behavior in this episode, where he only remembered she existed, because he needed something from her, like the good old narcissistic psychopath he is. What a deep friendship on his side! Such a strong bond! Bros forevah! Please.

No, the reason she is cool with him being a jerk to her is because the writers have always been happy to disregard Abbie's character to benefit Crane at every turn. God forbid he's accountable for his actions.

 

I really don't get at all how Abbie is painted as this undesirable black woman. She's always been written as this kickass woman. You think she was getting shortchanged because Katrina got to have the big romance story with Crane? I was glad Abbie wasn't mired in that, I want to see her out there, well, kicking ass! Abbie's worth as a character isn't defined based on how desirable the writers make her. Doesn't matter how many demons she slays, all that matters is if Crane falls in love with her. Not true. Come on, there are plenty of shows that do nothing but that. The Affair just started up another season on Showtime, lol. Let Sleepy Hollow be about supernatural villains and gonzo history. And let Abbie be the successful career cop who's now an FBI agent who happens to kill demons on the side.

That plays into the "strong black woman that needs no man" trope, which says black women are not worthy of romantic love, while white women get rewarded with it, badass or not. Isn't it convenient that the white couple got their Epic Love Story? They can be badass and romantic, at least on paper. Whether it failed or not is secondary to the fact, that Abbie has only been treated as a work horse by the writers and therefore Crane himself. It's funny you mention The Affair, when it's a show about white people and their love stories.

All that matters is if Crane falls in love with her? No, not really. That would be ridiculous. Crane has never respected her, even less cared about her as a friend. Where would that mythical love come from? I'm sorry, but it would be forced and completely unbelievable. Abbie is not the kind of woman he'd ever be into. I mean, he keeps romanticizing a past, where he'd have the right to beat up, rape and murder women like Abbie without consequences. His best friends were slave owners. That's the place and the people he belongs with. It's no big surprise he treats Abbie so abysmally.

Forget about Crane, what matters though is that Abbie is given a good love story on screen. No exes, no references to what it could have been. It doesn't need to take up much screentime. Just replace those stupidly annoying ichabbie shipper bait scenes, with Abbie and an actual love interest, who respects and appreciates her. She can be a badass the rest of the episode.

[Enero]

What I came away with was that Ichabod left & didn't call Abbie. She went ahead to the FBI. Nothing weird or demony was happening. He didn't call her for nine months. WHen he admitted he was in the detention center for 4 days before even calling her then, he looked shamefaced & she looked hurt. In her mind nothing ii-y was happening the whole time he was gone. So now he is back and suddenly wants her to believe demony stuff is happening again? And, btw, that is the only reason he called her? Not because he was back, not because he was detained & needed her help, but only because she is a witness. In the car ride when he said they weren't a team Abbie blinked again like she was hurt by his words. So I could see why she would clap back at him on that front. Not because she isn't a believer but because she doesn't want to feel that it suddenly convenient for him to remember he has a witness partner. I felt the scene in the end was her really realizing why Crane acted the way he did. He needs a purpose and a place and he felt he had neither. So she needed to reassure him.

Great assessment. But once again it's all about Crane, his pain, his needs and his desires which Abbie always has to come around to. At this point their 'friendship' is very one sided and is most beneficial to Crane not Abbie.

In fact my reluctance in seeing them romantic has nothing to do with a lack of chemistry and all to do with me not seeing what Abbie gets out of it. Actually I am now sick of chemistry being a big requirement for a relationships on shows by now, I need other reasons. Not saying there are absolutely none but they don't convince me.

I agree. I've always been somewhat on the fence about a Crane/Abbie pairing, but right now I have no desire to see this. Now if Crane is shown to have less arrogance and more humility and to care less about HIS angst and place in the world and more about Abbie's thoughts and feelings, then maybe but right now no. Abbie has already given too much to this relationship, and not just emotionally, look at all the money I'm sure she's shelled out to keep up not only him but his trifling wife without getting anything in return, to get caught up in the black hole that would be a romance with Crane.

If she must have love, which she totally deserves, let it be with some other guy who is actually worthy of her.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Enero

[Indi]

At this point, I'd settle for some throwaway line about how that season 1 priest realized Ichabod would need funds whenever he awakened and had some gold dubloons sitting in a bank vault for the last two hundred years, with Ichabod's name on the ornately decorated box.  Or he appointed some major financial powerhouse, like Lloyd's of London, as the keeper of a trust for Ichabod.  Anything to indicate that Ichabod is truly independently wealthy now, and can easily afford to be taking extended walkabouts.

Nah! Knowing Ichy, he probably emptied Abbie's bank account.

[Miss Dee]

Look, I get how everyone is sick of knowing that almost every single show out there pairs up its male and female lead eventually. But do you know why you see that? Because almost every single female lead out there is white.

Go research it for yourself: think of all the biggest offenders out there that make you roll your eyes about Yet Another Show going down this road. What percentage of them have a white female lead? Then go crunch the numbers for white male leads and women of colour leads - how many of those go on to be an epic romance? That's not made by Sondra Rhimes, I mean?

Then go read up on feminism and intersectionality. I'll go ahead and spoil it for you: The boring trope of pairing the leads is almost always exclusive to white, hetero, cis-gendered people only. People who don't belong to that group don't get to see their representatives being the love of someone's life, and the percentage for that is lowest when the female lead is a black woman.

So I get it; I really do. If you are watching a show with a white man and woman, protest as loud as you can about putting the leads together if you want! It'd be a gutsy show who cast two attractive white and hetero people of the opposite sex and never caved into the pressure to put them together. (And then go watch the original CSI: Gil Grissom and Catherine Willows will warm the cockles of your heart.)

But on a show like this? Look, it's cool to say you don't see the chemistry, or that you hate Ichabod and just want to see him die, or that you ship Abbie with a different character. It's cool to have a specific reason why these two characters, in particular, do not work together romantically. But if your reason is just that you don't want the show to put the leads together on Yet Another Show, please realize you are not breaking the mold in saying that; you are not fighting stereotypes; you are not proposing anything new. You are arguing in favor of a very old and hoary TV trope: that a white man and a black woman should never get together romantically. If you crunched the numbers as I suggested above, you'll realize just how unusual that storyline actually is on television. Arguing in favor of a no-romo relationship is not going against the status quo; it's arguing for the status quo, and one based in racial prejudice in that.

I for one am all for Sleepy Hollow breaking new ground. I didn't see anything wrong with the chemistry in this episode. In fact, if Abbie had been a white character I would have definitely deduced, from the looks and the hugs and the general turn of events, that this was starting down the romance path.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Miss Dee

[DeLurker]

But isn't that what they did with Crane and Katrina, in spite of their blatant anti-chemistry, romantic or otherwise? Clearly the show has never cared about chemistry or the lack of it. There are tons of people who think Abbie and Crane have sexual chemistry. Personally, I don't think it matters anymore. It's more simple than that. It just doesn't make logical sense to turn them into a romantic pairing, considering the way he has treated her throughout the series. The writers have bent Abbie's character over backwards to accommodate Crane's many betrayals, general ineffectualness and general shittiness, instead of repairing his character. Hooking them up would be gross, she shouldn't be treated like a doormat. Chemistry be damned.

Taking my response to this, and the general chemistry discussion, to Relationships.

[allyw]

I finally got around to see the show and I definitely thought that the chemistry was off between the Witnesses but it worked within the story as they were apart for 9 months and hadn't spoken to each other.

I didn't like Pandora as much as everyone else seems to though I thought the scene with Abbie was her best.

Betsy Ross- I agree with everyone else that the corset was ridiculous and her voice was too modern. However, I didn't have a problem with the ackward kiss as I believe that was the whole point of it.

All in all the episode was boring but I'm going to see where the next couple of episodes go before I decide if I want to continue watching this season.

[benteen]

I was watching this again and the Colonial Times scene was just as funny as it was the first time.  Loved Ichabod telling the guy behind the counter that perhaps they did speak like that "if they had a wound to the head."  Abbie teasing him by asking him if Colonial Times was just as he remembered them was great too.

[OakGoblinFly]

The voice - and modern accent - on Betsy Ross threw me completely out of the show - couldn't they have tried harder.

 

I'd rather listen to that than hear Nikki Reed attempted a Colonial accent or speak in whispered, breathy tones (which was a fear when I saw how tightly she was laced into her corset).

 

Not sure how I feel about the episode, there were some lovely moments - all involving Abbie, especially when interacting with Jenny (whose I still wish had less arch to her eyebrows - Lyndie Greenwood is such a pretty lady; I think the extra high arches with the pulled back hair aren't doing her any favors/it makes her look surprised and/or receiptant of a bad facelift) and Crane.

 

I’m not feeling super-spy Betsy Ross or super-evil Pandora and I felt the writing was extremely clunky for most of the episode. 

 

However, the cinematography was lush and gorgeous.

 

As long as the show keeps Betsy in the past, stops every female from fawning over/falling in love with Crane, remembers Jenny has a past as a relic hunter, and Abbie is strong, intelligent woman there might be hope.

[OakGoblinFly]

Is no one suspicious that evil comes to Sleepy Hollow, whenever Ichy does? Why hasn't it occurred to anyone that the curse in Sleepy Hollow could be Ichy?

 

Reminds me that my family and I used to wonder why no one every thought Jessica Fletcher (from Murder She Wrote) was a serial killer; not only were there a large number of homicides in Cabot Cove, Maine -- dead bodies popped up whenever she went on vacation.

[DearEvette]

Great assessment. But once again it's all about Crane, his pain, his needs and his desires which Abbie always has to come around to. At this point their 'friendship' is very one sided and is most beneficial to Crane not Abbie.

 

On some level I think this re-intro kinda had to address Crane's state of mind. If you look at it objectively he is in a really fucked up situation.  He is here 230 years in the future and while he had the whole being  a Witness and stopping the Apocalypse thing as an anchor before, with it all seemingly gone (and having killed his wife) I can see why he feels a bit lost.  What is he supposed to do with no demons? His coming forward from his own time has to have meaning.  If you think about it, his rants about modern times is another way of him coping with his changed circumstances, but it is amusing so we don't think about it in the same way we'd think about him panicking or questioning or maybe even having moments of doubt.

 

And I do agree that the balance of the relationship is lopsided, but I think part of that is also necessary. He needs Abbie more than she needs him.  So I think he does take more than he gives. But I do think Crane gives Abbie something that is hard to define that makes him valuable to her. 

 

Or maybe she needs him cuz he's hard to kill , let's face it, men in Abbie's orbit seem do to die at least once or twice...Corbin, Irving, Andy, Luke(?) ... LOL

Edited October 5, 2015 by DearEvette

[Free]

Once Upon a Time is convinced that Regina is a "hero" in spite of all she's done and everyone she knows thinks so too.

 

It's even worse that they keep bringing up her past actions and victims only to brush them off aside again and have yet another Poor Regina moment.

[frenchtoast]

Just a heads up, we moved a few posts over to the Relationships topic as it was starting to stray a bit here. Also, let's please be careful and avoid lecturing and instructing posters on how to watch and comment and whether they should 'ship a couple or not. Some posts have been doing that and it's becoming an issue.

 

Thanks!

[fantique]

moved to the relationship thread.

Edited October 5, 2015 by fantique

[Sparkling Beth]

 

My second viewing thoughts on Betsy was no better than the first viewing.  I felt maybe I was judging her too harshly and the shock of her boobs overwhelmed any other impression I might have.  But no.  Her line readings were jarring.  She didn't feel like a woman of the 19th century.  Even wearing pants and a push up corset, a woman of her time would have still felt like a woman of her time.

Maybe it will turn out that Betsy Ross really is from the 21st century, sent back in time to help the cause much as Crane was sent forward in time.  Yeah, I know that's unlikely, but at least then we could buy the modern-day attitude!

[phoenics]

No, it does not matter if Abbie is given *any* good love story?  Why is that important on this kind of show?  Why is romance a requirement no matter what the story is about?  I find it refreshing when a show can set aside the romance angle for once and just focus on its main theme.  I didn't need Crane and Katrina either.

I don't see Abbie as a black woman, I see her as a woman. Race doesn't have to be inserted into everything. And there is another strong black woman on the show who gets to have romantic interests, so I think that base is being covered.

...

Taking my response to this over to the race thread...

http://forums.previously.tv/topic/31619-after-you-leftenant-gender-and-race-in-sleepy-hollow/#entry1571351

Edited October 5, 2015 by phoenics

[Miss Dee]

Maybe it will turn out that Betsy Ross really is from the 21st century, sent back in time to help the cause much as Crane was sent forward in time. Yeah, I know that's unlikely, but at least then we could buy the modern-day attitude!

You know, I would really like that twist. Good one!

[Free]

Maybe it will turn out that Betsy Ross really is from the 21st century, sent back in time to help the cause much as Crane was sent forward in time.  Yeah, I know that's unlikely, but at least then we could buy the modern-day attitude!

 

That would be a nice twist.

[phoenics]

Heh - as long as she cannot get back to the present day, lol.

[jhlipton]

I really don't get at all how Abbie is painted as this undesirable black woman. She's always been written as this kickass woman. You think she was getting shortchanged because Katrina got to have the big romance story with Crane? I was glad Abbie wasn't mired in that, I want to see her out there, well, kicking ass! Abbie's worth as a character isn't defined based on how desirable the writers make her. Doesn't matter how many demons she slays, all that matters is if Crane falls in love with her. Not true. Come on, there are plenty of shows that do nothing but that. The Affair just started up another season on Showtime, lol. Let Sleepy Hollow be about supernatural villains and gonzo history. And let Abbie be the successful career cop who's now an FBI agent who happens to kill demons on the side.

 

 

 I mean, he keeps romanticizing a past, where he'd have the right to beat up, rape and murder women like Abbie without consequences. His best friends were slave owners. That's the place and the people he belongs with. It's no big surprise he treats Abbie so abysmally.

 

I've always been bothered by the British&demons vs 'Mericans&Witnesses, but you just made another thought pop into my head.  England was moving toward abolishing slavery -- it outlawed trade just in 1806 and slavery itself in 1833, whereas the colonists would keep it going in one form or another to the present day (see: American prisons).  

 

We're taught that the Revolution was fought over taxes (just as the Civil War is taught to be about "State's Rights"), but I wonder if Washington, Jefferson and the other slave owners weren't a bit afraid that they'd lose their "property" if they remained a part of the Empire.  

Who are the demons, now?

[phoenics]

THAT would be a ridiculously awesome twist for them to do...  how's that for twistory with a lot of truth rolled up into it?

 

I am not sure if by the American Revolution if Britain was actually backing off of slavery - were they?  If so, that would be super awesome to touch on in the show.  Talk about something fun to write.  But they won't do it, lol.  The furthest they'd go is talking about Jefferson and Sally Hemmings.

 

Oh and btw, "State's rights" --> the ones in question for the Civil War was always the "state's right to own slaves", lol.  The secession documents make that crystal clear - but I agree, they usually "whitewash" (heh) that when it's taught in schools.  Hence why so many people are really ignorant as to the reality of what happened.  Once you read through some states' secession documents though, it becomes crystal clear.

Edited October 6, 2015 by phoenics

[jhlipton]

I am not sure if by the American Revolution if Britain was actually backing off of slavery - were they?  If so, that would be super awesome to touch on in the show.  Talk about something fun to write.  But they won't do it, lol.  The furthest they'd go is talking about Jefferson and Sally Hemmings.

Oh and btw, "State's rights" --> the ones in question for the Civil War was always the "state's right to own slaves", lol.  The secession documents make that crystal clear - but I agree, they usually "whitewash" (heh) that when it's taught in schools.  Hence why so many people are really ignorant as to the reality of what happened.  Once you read through some states' secession documents though, it becomes crystal clear.

Brought over to Race and Gender.

[cynic]

The person who designed the Colonial Times menu posted it on the comments thread of the i09 review. I never seem to be able to our pictures correctly, but you can see it if you go there and scroll down.

I particularly appreciate the John Ham Hock (our signature dish!) and that the buffet costs $17.76. :D

http://io9.com/sleepy-hollow-is-back-and-it-s-as-surprised-as-you-are-1734273874

[phoenics]

I saw that earlier - too cool!

[Dobian]

All that matters is if Crane falls in love with her? No, not really. That would be ridiculous. Crane has never respected her, even less cared about her as a friend. Where would that mythical love come from? I'm sorry, but it would be forced and completely unbelievable. Abbie is not the kind of woman he'd ever be into. I mean, he keeps romanticizing a past, where he'd have the right to beat up, rape and murder women like Abbie without consequences. His best friends were slave owners. That's the place and the people he belongs with. It's no big surprise he treats Abbie so abysmally.

 

I know you have a full hate-on for Ichabod, but really all he has ever been guilty of is being negligent toward Abbie when he was all wrapped up in the Katrina/Henry mess, which was more about bad writing than the character himself.  He has always treated Abbie as his equal and been decent to her, not counting the times when he may have acted jerky...because he's human!  You never get the feeling of condescension or bigotry from him.  And to that end I would say, I might have liked it better if he *did* act that way, at least in the first season.  It would have been far more intriguing to have a man with 18th century values be suddenly thrust into the 21st century and have to learn to accept a black female on his level.  Instead, they effectively made Ichabod a relatively 21st century man from the start, with the exception being he had to learn about all these new-fangled technological gadgets.  They basically sanitized the whole thing.  And let's not get too high and mighty about how advanced we are compared to the 18th century.  Women are routinely raped and beaten today in many places without consequences, including right here. Slavery and human trafficking exists all over the world today in large numbers.  Millions are now fleeing Assad and ISIS to avoid getting slaughtered.  The world hasn't changed much, it's just gotten more complicated.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Dobian

[phoenics]

That's a good point Dobian... especially about how we haven't necessarily progressed much as a society. I mean, of course in many ways we have, but we've also gotten spectacularly good at ignoring issues... many of which Kimberella and Indi routinely point out.

I may not think of Ichabod in the same way that they do, but I do think that the show tends to gloss over his errors and mistakes and they tend to do it on Abbie's back. But I also agree with you Dobian in that much of Ichy's mistakes were wrapped up in Katrina and Henry... I could possibly make a case that when the chips are down, Ichabod always chooses his status quo, but well, he did shank Katrina to save Abbie... so...

I do think it would be a fun plot twist to show even more balance about those on the side of "good". When Abbie and Frank confronted Ichabod (gently) about Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemmings, that was a great nod to the complexity of our past. I wish the show would do stuff like that more often - AND perhaps even delve into it as jhlipton suggested up above.

[Free]

The person who designed the Colonial Times menu posted it on the comments thread of the i09 review. I never seem to be able to our pictures correctly, but you can see it if you go there and scroll down.

I particularly appreciate the John Ham Hock (our signature dish!) and that the buffet costs $17.76. :D

http://io9.com/sleepy-hollow-is-back-and-it-s-as-surprised-as-you-are-1734273874

 

I liked the menu.  :D.

[Indi]

Ichabod always chooses his status quo, but well, he did shank Katrina to save Abbie... so...

 

Except that he didn't intend to do that at all. It was an accident. That dude will forever be wishy washy.

[kimberella]

I know you have a full hate-on for Ichabod, but really all he has ever been guilty of is being negligent toward Abbie when he was all wrapped up in the Katrina/Henry mess, which was more about bad writing than the character himself. He has always treated Abbie as his equal and been decent to her, not counting the times when he may have acted jerky...because he's human!

Everyone has their own motives to be awful, but that doesn't change a thing. Not the results, not the damage and not the fact that they remain awful. In Crane's case it's even more glaring, because he remained unrepentant and convinced of his moral superiority. Naming Katrina/Henry does nothing to help the character. He was despicable to Abbie, there was no reciprocity on his part to her kindness. That's more than enough good reason for me to hate the character.

Blaming the writing and not the character is so weird to me. Crane was an asshole to his partner for one season and a half. That's not a fluke of occasional bad writing, that's character consistency. Crane has always treated Abbie like a lesser and like his servant. She was his private punching bag, while she fed him and paid his bills. Some friendship that!

[phoenics]

But don't we have to look at WHO wrote that? You said, a season and a half. That season and a half was controlled by Goffman who was a jerk and a terrible show runner. He did that.

Can't we give the new show runner a chance? I'd like to.

[jhlipton]

He did that..

 

I was going to say "Wasn't that Chris Carter?", but that was "made", not "did"...

[proserpina65]

Except that he didn't intend to do that at all. It was an accident. That dude will forever be wishy washy.

We argued over this for days last season, but it seemed absolutely clear to me and others that he did intend to kill Katrina, however much he didn't want to do it, to save Abbie.  So no, not wishy-washy at all in that case.

[Free]

We argued over this for days last season, but it seemed absolutely clear to me and others that he did intend to kill Katrina, however much he didn't want to do it, to save Abbie.  So no, not wishy-washy at all in that case.

 

I think the show was being rebooted at that point: last season they got rid of Katrina, Henry, and to an extent Headless in the premiere, Goffman got replaced by Cliffton (sp?), etc.

[phoenics]

We argued over this for days last season, but it seemed absolutely clear to me and others that he did intend to kill Katrina, however much he didn't want to do it, to save Abbie.  So no, not wishy-washy at all in that case.

Abbie: "You didn't have a choice."

Crane: "Yes I did. We all did."

He meant to shank that witch, lol.

[not Bridget]

Hopefully they find a way to keep using that set. 

Posting after watching episode 1--haven't seen the next one yet, although it might have bearing on this topic..  For its first two seasons, the show was shot in WIlmington NC, a hotspot for filming shows & even movies. The state ended the tax breaks that favored that industry--so the show is now being shot in Georgia.  All the old sets are gone.  How many props were moved?  What will they have the money to rebuild?  There's a practical reason behind the "new look" of the show.  (Just as there's a practical reason for Ichabod's shorter hair--it's his own, rather than the lovely but hard to wear wig.  The character needed no excuse to cut his hair. Perhaps he tried a totally modern look--glad we didn't have to see the early growing out phrase.)

 

On to what I remember of the episode.  Glad that Ichabod & Abbie are together again; glad Jennie is still on the team. Will miss Irving & Headless but future appearances are just possible. Hope to never see Henry & his Mom; although expunging her from the story makes flashbacks harder, since she was So Important to Ichabod, beginning before the Revolution. Loved the restaurant scene. 

 

Pandora seemed promising.  Betsy Ross was dreadful. The actress wasn't good & the costume was horrible. A few women did "pass as men" but she wasn't trying. Colonial ladies wore "stays"--not fetish corsets.  Historical quibble--"General" Washington would not have sent instructions to Bunker/Breed Hill. At the time of that battle, he was in Philadelphia, looking distinguished in his Militia Uniform as the 2nd Continental Congress was looking for someone to command the new army. Back in Season 1, Ichabod said that "Colonel Washington of the Virginia Militia" had sent him to Boston--that was his status at the time & that nod to Real History made me accept his involvement in the Occult Struggle already beginning.  (Have much more to say about history--surely there's a thread!)

 

Good enough that I decided to keep watching; I truly loved Season 1.  Didn't make it last week since Los Texmaniacs were playing in a park downtown.  So it's off to Hulu..... 

[sinkwriter]

I'm just catching up, reading everyone's posts, because I didn't watch the premiere episode until this evening. (What can I say, it's been a busy month!) 

 

I really enjoyed the episode. It felt more fun than most of last season, it had the charming quirks and jokes that make me laugh (the prison and Colonial Times stuff especially), it had some terrific Ichabod and Abbie discussions and (yes) chemistry, it had Abbie saving Ichabod's ass and not being at all rattled by it (unlike Ichabod, which was a great touch), it had Jenny and Abbie (yay!), and just an overall back to the basics feel that I really liked. 

 

I do think the show has lost something in not having Irving there anymore. His stuff may not have been my favorite to watch, but he offered up a more cynical point of view, and someone in charge. If they're getting rid of that, I agree with the poster who mentioned it would have been cool to see Abbie be a P.I. I know her dream was to work for the FBI but 1) dreams change, especially after big events in one's life, and 2) then we wouldn't have to deal with what I imagine are going to be weekly annoyances of her superiors getting mad at her for shirking her duties or bringing a civilian to crime scenes and telling him about cases that probably have a level of security and confidentiality tied to them.

 

I don't love Betsy Ross or Pandora (that name especially feels a little too on the nose), but I'll wait and see what they have planned, I guess. 

 

Nevertheless, I did find the episode very enjoyable, but as always that is due to the two lead characters (and actors) and their wonderful chemistry, as friends, colleagues, witnesses, or however anyone wants to see them.