Unpopular Opinions: All Alone in Purgatory

[Three]

 TM is very attractive, and charming, but he has been tainted for me like someone else said above.

 

 

I know you probably realize this but I am not throwing any shade at Tom whatsoever.

 

Quoting myself here, but I just realized how inconsistent this is. I should be a shoo-in for a job with Sleepy Hollow PR.

Sigh.

 

[TaurusRose]

I know how you feel about Tom, but you seem to think that you're the only one. I think TM is the sexiest lead on TV.

I don't care if SH gets renewed, because I will not be watching. FOX has given me the finger twice, so yeah.

From where I'm from, there are a couple of sayings: 1) Don't overstay your welcome and 2) Don't go where you're not wanted. It is clear to me that FOX is not interested in me as a viewer, so I'm gone.

I don't know anyone personally on this forum, so there is no personal animosity toward any of you for wanting to continue to watch SH. To each his own, and I mean that sincerely.

This was never about TM vs NB.

Amen. Amen. Amen.

I have been an active and supportive fan of many genre shows. There have been times when these shows have disappointed me and/or failed to deliver on the mythology they've promised. But never, EVER, in my entire adult TV viewing life has any show's personnel and power brokers fucked over an audience as blatantly and contemptously as those people (producers, writers, showrunners, executives, whoever the fuck else) behind SH. If I could maim and burn, trust me I would. That's how pissed off I was after this thing went down. Now I'm just shunning everything network television has to offer. Because it's all basically a sack of shit. I've freed myself from Gotham, Empire, OUAT, Quantico, BATB and Reign. If I'm totally bored I may visit the boards to see what people are saying, but as far as me being engaged and tuned in, they can kiss my lovely, round, black ass good bye.

[shanndee]

Argh! Why can't I stop staring at the train wreck that is SH and just drive away???

 

I am truly finished with the show, but I can't stop reading any and all commentaries that cross my path. I guess it is because I really, truly hope that the amazing negative response to this travesty will make a difference. I really hope that networks learn something about viewers and the importance of fulfilling the promise of an insanely popular first 6 or 7 episodes of a new show.

I hope they will learn to stop meddling in a working concept. I hope they will learn to respect their audiences. I hope they learn that a bait and switch never works.

 

Above all else I hope they will learn to respect and appreciate diversity. Networks...it is 2016. This world is an amazing, diverse world and most of us want to see it represented in all of its glory.

 

Sigh. I guess my unpopular opinion is that I hope networks will learn...but I believe that they won't.

 

:(

[jhlipton]

[W]ho doesn't love a hot british actor?

Me! Don't even care much for hot British actresses (Ms Dame Rigg aside). I think everyone knows my preference for hot black actresses (Freema Agyeman is a NICE combination of the two!!!).

 

I hope those who make the decision not to watch won't feel that those of us who do watch are any less loyal to NB, or any less angry at the way she was treated, or any less despairing of how a truly wonderful show fell apart.

I have to admit, I'm a bit torn. I do want someone to watch, and report back here. But I also feel it is somewhat disloyal to do so.

 

I have never seen an episode of TWD, but both my son and my daughter have tried in vain to get me interested. TWD is not my cup of tea, but SH was.

Viewing past episodes of a show on SyFy is near impossible unless you have one of their selected cable providers, but if you can, check out Z Nation. It's far more silly than TWD (there's a giant cheese wheel that picks up zombies as it rolls over them), but it is fun, and the lead is a strong, black woman. [WARNING: It is a s bloody / violent as TWD]

 

IMO, Racism killed this show.

So it would appear.

[C76]

As I hear more about what possibly went wrong I have the feeling that SH will be fixed. Social media responses from people like Roberto Orci have given me hope.

 

If the show continues to air without Abbie, the only way I will watch it is the same way I've been seeing most of it--via a non-Fox-affiliated site, so I won't contribute to their metrics. And even then, solely to see how far it's fallen.

Edited April 15, 2016 by C76

[TaurusRose]

As I hear more about what possibly went wrong I have the feeling that SH will be fixed. Social media responses from people like Roberto Orci have given me hope.

What has Orci said about this situation? P.S. Don't watch Hulu. I think Fox tracks them.

[C76]

What has Orci said about this situation? P.S. Don't watch Hulu. I think Fox tracks them.

 

I shared this in the media thread and we can chat more over there. ;) 

 

https://twitter.com/realboborci/status/720471271260176384

[Blackhoney]

I had no idea ppl like Orci weren't still involved with the show in some way or another. Truth is, he was involved when the show started making its move toward being more Crane centric, which happened in the first season. The second half of the first season was all about Crane finding out he had a son, what happened to him and then rescuing Katrina. Season one set up the mess for season two.

I don't see the show being fixed, at least not as many would want it. You can't go back. If Fox renews the show it'll be because they believe Tom/Ichabod can lead the show alone, something I think they have believed for sometime now.

[phoenics]

If Fox renews the show it'll be because they believe Tom/Ichabod can lead the show alone, something I think they have believed for sometime now.

And that's what I just cannot wrap my head around. I mean - are these people not smart? Did they all fail basic math and arithmetic? Because the moment the show shifted away from Abbie, the ratings started dropping - and then when it shifted TO Katrina and the Random White Peoples, the ratings PLUMMETED.

If Crane could carry this show alone - he would have already. S2 would have been successful. As it is, it WASN'T. The show lost well over half of its viewership... like 2/3 of it!

If the show comes back - what is it that those fans are watching for? Crane leading? He was doing that in S2 and it tanked. A white female lead? Well, technically that's what happened in S2 - Katrina was taking over and Abbie sidelined. It tanked.

I just don't get it. If Fox thinks black folks will come back to this show after seeing how Abbie was treated - hell if it thinks reasonable white folks (who aren't only watching for Crane) will come back - they are mistaken. Those fans left and NEVER returned.

I just don't get it.

[Enero]

I'm not going to throw shade at Tom. When I compare it with everything else-he and Nicole really seemed like good friends, joking and being so cute. I've watched other shows when I know the actors whose characters have been shit upon stay professional and just toe the party line at these cons. Even when I know what they're saying is bullshit. Tom Mison hasn't acted in any way to make me think he's anything like Margulies, so until I see proof of him shit talking about Nicole, I still believe he's a gentleman.

My UO on this, if even half of what's been speculated about what went on BTS between NB and TPTB is true, I will throw shade at TM for vigorously renegotiating his contract. If he and NB are as close as they seemed, how could he in good conscious a) continue on with the show and b) negotiate a better deal than he had before. IMO TM continuing on with the show after such unfair treatment of his co-worker and friend would not sit right with me at all.

That said, I think TPTB decided to undo the true death for Abbie in the mid season finale and kept her on through the end of the season to ensure they'd have strong enough ratings for a chance at a S4 renewal.

Edited April 16, 2016 by Enero

[DJG1122]

My UO on this, if even half of what's been speculated about what went on BTS between NB and TPTB is true, I will throw shade at TM for vigorously renegotiating his contract. If he and NB are as close as they seemed, how could he in good conscious a) continue on with the show and b) negotiate a better deal than he had before. IMO TM continuing on with the show after such unfair treatment of his co-worker and friend would not sit right with me at all.

That said, I think TPTB decided to undo the true death for Abbie in the mid season finale and kept her on through the end of the season to ensure they'd have strong enough ratings for a chance at a S4 renewal.

CODSPAMMIT & CODSCAMMIT!

[CalamityBoPeep]

My UO on this, if even half of what's been speculated about what went on BTS between NB and TPTB is true, I will throw shade at TM for vigorously renegotiating his contract. If he and NB are as close as they seemed, how could he in good conscious a) continue on with the show and b) negotiate a better deal than he had before. IMO TM continuing on with the show after such unfair treatment of his co-worker and friend would not sit right with me at all.

That said, I think TPTB decided to undo the true death for Abbie in the mid season finale and kept her on through the end of the season to ensure they'd have strong enough ratings for a chance at a S4 renewal.

 

I look at it like this... 

 

He's probably quite pained about it, and I hope that his contract renegotiation is him extracting a hefty pound of flesh from the asshats who drove NB away. Tom has a wife now, and a new baby, and is probably less than enthused about the show at this point too. But he needs the job. And he needs the reputation of being an actor that can stay professional. (I totally believe NB has been extremely professional in handling herself, but I expect the suits to continue undermining her.). Tom isn't American. If he wants to continue working in the US then he has to be seen as really cooperative and willing not to rock the boat.

 

I'm not saying I wouldn't have loved to see him come out swinging at the suits, and saying "Take this job and shove it!" I just don't think he has that luxury, in the long term. I do imagine he and Nicole have talked it over, as friends who work together tend to do, and I could see her being the kind of friend who'd support his decision, as he probably understands and supports hers. I'd also bet he has no illusions about the potential success of the show without her, but in the event it fails, it won't be because Tom wasn't a "team player." I don't think any of it is particularly pretty or heroic. But I'd hesitate to tell him he ought to do things differently, given his reality. I wonder if there is a part of him that hopes it doesn't get renewed.

[DearEvette]

I had no idea ppl like Orci weren't still involved with the show in some way or another. Truth is, he was involved when the show started making its move toward being more Crane centric, which happened in the first season. The second half of the first season was all about Crane finding out he had a son, what happened to him and then rescuing Katrina. Season one set up the mess for season two.

 

If my memory is correct (mind you some of this is reaching back, some is gossip, some might be mis-memory etc.)  -- Iscove is the one that had the great idea for SH.  Orci and Kurtzman had the industry clout.  They pitched the idea to networks.  Because the idea was cray-cray, Fox wanted an entire season-long bible upfront.  Which they created.  Fox bought it.  Nicole read.  She wowzered them so hard.  They did some re-writes based her on casting including, I believe her backstory.  I kinda remember O & K being the showrunners in the beginning.  Very hands on at first.  But something must have happened between them and Fox because they got a deal with CBS and Goffman took over while they went on to develop Scorpion  -- this happened somewheres in early 2014, i think. 

 

I do think the Crane family revelations were planned all along, but I don't think the execution would have been so heavy-handed if Goffman hadn't been in charge.  He was enamoured of KW.  That is about the time he became the talking head for the show and he began to talk her up.  Interestingly the episode where Ichabod is so determined to get Katrina out of Purgatory by drawing  the map from memory behind Abbie's back is written by the same guy who wrote that horrible Deliverance episode.   That was his first writing credit on the show.  And of course he along with Metzner are all over S2.

 

So in some ways I do think if Orci & co. had stayed and hadn't given Goffman the reins, we would have had a very different show.

Edited April 17, 2016 by DearEvette

[Julia]

And, too, do I remember correctly that (except for Ichabod and Katrina, obvs) the sides were race blind? I could swear I remember reading that we got Abbie and Andy because they read the best, not because the characters were designated african-or asian-american.

[jhlipton]

And, too, do I remember correctly that (except for Ichabod and Katrina, obvs) the sides were race blind? I could swear I remember reading that we got Abbie and Andy because they read the best, not because the characters were designated african-or asian-american.

 

That seems to have been collaborated by the creators and Beharie.

[Blackhoney]

Can we all just take a moment to ask ourselves how Tom, being the lead on a failing show, has room to even renegotiate his contract? Like seriously, what's the reasoning behind him or his management feeling as though he's somehow deserving of more money? What does he have to bargain with exactly? Terrence Howard is on a hit show and I bet he can't get his contract renegotiated anytime soon. Who does Tom think he is, Andrew Lincoln (Rick, The Walking Dead).

[NuncaNunca]

Can we all just take a moment to ask ourselves how Tom, being the lead on a failing show, has room to even renegotiate his contract? Like seriously, what's the reasoning behind him or his management feeling as though he's somehow deserving of more money? What does he have to bargain with exactly? Terrence Howard is on a hit show and I bet he can't get his contract renegotiated anytime soon. Who does Tom think he is, Andrew Lincoln (Rick, The Walking Dead).

 

He's still under contract and its in force, and contract (re)negotiations can be initiated by any contracted party and be over any numbers of terms of a contract. It was reported he renegotiated his contract for a lighter work schedule in S3, so if he's carrying the show in S4, FOX very well may have dragged him back to the table in order to amend that.

[bobbysgurl]

He's still under contract and its in force, and contract (re)negotiations can be initiated by any contracted party and be over any numbers of terms of a contract. It was reported he renegotiated his contract for a lighter work schedule in S3, so if he's carrying the show in S4, FOX very well may have dragged him back to the table in order to amend that.

I hope TM gets everything he wants and more, because this is not his fault. FOX can throw good money after bad (SH, not TM) and SH will still tank.

[DeLurker]

Can we all just take a moment to ask ourselves how Tom, being the lead on a failing show, has room to even renegotiate his contract? Like seriously, what's the reasoning behind him or his management feeling as though he's somehow deserving of more money? What does he have to bargain with exactly? Terrence Howard is on a hit show and I bet he can't get his contract renegotiated anytime soon. Who does Tom think he is, Andrew Lincoln (Rick, The Walking Dead).

Clearly TPTB are under the impression that it was Crane carrying the show...I would strongly disagree with that, but I hope he is able to extract every last cent and concession out of them because they are Dumb Fucks. 

[Yolapukka]

I don't side-eye Lyndie Greenwood, for not loudly decrying the turn the show has taken or otherwise publicly shaming TPTB for dumasshattery and I certainly don't side-eye her for liking some clueless banality on twitter. The writers get only a partial fleeting side-eye if they had their names on the actual fucked-up scripts, even then, those scripts are contingent on approval from above*. Not sure if it's actually an unpopular opinion or simply contrary to opinions that have been expressed.

 

 

* "Above" on the other hand, can go fuck themselves so vigourously that they poke their own eyes out from the inside.

Edited April 19, 2016 by yuggapukka

[jhlipton]

"Above" on the other hand, can go fuck themselves so vigourously that they poke their own eyes out from the inside.

 

Stealing this!

[catrox14]

Can we all just take a moment to ask ourselves how Tom, being the lead on a failing show, has room to even renegotiate his contract? Like seriously, what's the reasoning behind him or his management feeling as though he's somehow deserving of more money? What does he have to bargain with exactly? Terrence Howard is on a hit show and I bet he can't get his contract renegotiated anytime soon. Who does Tom think he is, Andrew Lincoln (Rick, The Walking Dead).

 

I think he is actually in a perfect position to renegotiate FOR ALL the money. Some folks watch only for Ichabod and they will probably go back. Maybe even those that are angry now, might peek their heads in on a season premier. He could negotiate for like a half season and then take time away for his family and maybe find a new gig.  At least that's what I hope he does. If he is going to be the only lead vs more of an ensemble then he needs to ask them to back up that Brinks Truck.

 

I don't fault Tom in this at all at this point. He's in a crap position no matter how you slice it.

[Three]

I don't fault Tom in this at all at this point. He's in a crap position no matter how you slice it.

 

Agreed. I think he is in an unenviable position if the reboot fails, with him as the star meant to be carrying it. I'd want danger money for that.

[TaurusRose]

Since I am officially done with SH now, my UO is that I don't give a FF about anyone connected to it, including TM. Sorry, but it's not my problem. If he were to find himself in another US series (airing on A&E, History, HBO or Starz), I'd give it a shot, but that's the extent of my goodwill.

Edited April 19, 2016 by taurusrose

[Julia]

Since I am officially done with SH now, my UO is that I don't give a FF about anyone connected to it

 

by FF, you mean that the rolling donut is safe?

[DJG1122]

by FF, you mean that the rolling donut is safe?

In my neck of the woods, FF is Flying F**k as in I don't give a FF or WTFF?

[TaurusRose]

by FF, you mean that the rolling donut is safe?

*scratching my head* Julia, I don't know what you're talking about. LOL

DJG1122 is on the same page as I am.

[C76]

In spite of my words in another thread, I can't seem to keep from talking about SH. I think it's going to haunt me for a while.

Can we all just take a moment to ask ourselves how Tom, being the lead on a failing show, has room to even renegotiate his contract? Like seriously, what's the reasoning behind him or his management feeling as though he's somehow deserving of more money? What does he have to bargain with exactly? Terrence Howard is on a hit show and I bet he can't get his contract renegotiated anytime soon. Who does Tom think he is, Andrew Lincoln (Rick, The Walking Dead).

 

I agree with catrox14, re TM being in a great position to go after a raise. Others have offered reasons, so instead of echoing them, I'll summarize them in 1 word:

 

RIsk.

Edited April 20, 2016 by C76

[vanarnd1]

In spite of my words in another thread, I can't seem to keep from talking about SH. I think it's going to haunt me for a while.

 

I think a lot of us are in a similar boat. For many reasons the way they got rid of Abbie is hard to move past.

 

Regarding Mison's contract, my UO is that I don't see him being able to negotiate for a raise. I think the talks might be more logistical, for instance he likely would have to do more filming than last year and that has to be worked out, but  I am not sure how much leverage he could have for such a low rated show. The delay in getting a deal done for season 4 likely involves other production costs and hammering out a workable budget overall IMO. I just hope either way there is an announcement soon so there can be closure on the situation

[C76]

A little while ago I finished S2. Unlike a lot of people, I didn't mind Katrina, Henry, or learning about Crane's family background. I liked the first and last few episodes. The middle ones didn't make sense to me at all.

 

I'm watching S3 now. My opinion thus far?

 

S1 - Perfection

S2 - Meh - See my comment above.

S3 - I'm watching purely to understand storylines and see how characters were portrayed. The premiere illustrated every complaint that I've read to date.

[Writing Wrongs]

Here it goes: I am actually enjoying this season and haven't missed Abbie at all. *ducks and scurries away*

[Briony]

Die Ichabod DIE!

i mean he obviously won't but to me its the only fitting end to this spectacular crapfest of a show

[CooperTV]

7 hours ago, Writing Wrongs said:

Here it goes: I am actually enjoying this season and haven't missed Abbie at all. *ducks and scurries away*

I like this season better than the last, actually. So. Yeah.

[Briony]

I hope he dies of like an infection and its painful because he refuses modern antibiotics... just saying

[Yolapukka]

I miss Abbie, BUT as ridiculous and inexplicable as killing her off was, writing off Sophie was in some ways worse because she was a character who was if not a true replacement for departing Abbie, at least filled a similar role while managing to have her own distinct identity. She had proven herself both as written and acted as a worthwhile addition to the cast but instead they swapped her out (as though the part was completely interchangeable, ahem) for Janina Govankar's Diana who so far is a dud. I admit my ability to comment is impaired because I've not watched much this season, but every time I've seen her, the awfulness sticks out like a rotten fish in a bowl of fresh fruit. Only Dreyfuss is worse. 

Edited March 22, 2017 by yuggapukka

[TaurusRose]

16 hours ago, yuggapukka said:

I miss Abbie, BUT as ridiculous and inexplicable as killing her off was, writing off Sophie was in some ways worse because she was a character who was if not a true replacement for departing Abbie, at least filled a similar role while managing to have her own distinct identity. She had proven herself both as written and acted as a worthwhile addition to the cast but instead they swapped her out (as though the part was completely interchangeable, ahem) for Janina Govankar's Diana who so far is a dud. I admit my ability to comment is impaired because I've not watched much this season, but every time I've seen that her, the awfulness sticks out like a rotten fish in a bowl of fresh fruit. Only Dreyfuss is worse. 

I don't watch this garbage but I completely agree with your Sophie point.  

[LeeLeePanda]

On 3/22/2017 at 2:01 PM, taurusrose said:

I don't watch this garbage but I completely agree with your Sophie point.  

 I agree. I liked the character. I still wouldn't have watched this season, but I think they did her dirty. 

I have 2 unpopular opinions.

1: I think I might have considered giving this season a chance had they not killed off Abbie. It might not have been must see tv for me, but I'd probably check in every now and then.

2. However, since they did decide to kill Abbie, I think they should have killed off both witnesses last season. Ending the season with both Crane and Abbie dead would have been super shocking, and a great way for them to reboot the series. Again, I wouldn't have watched, but it would have been and interesting twist. 

Edited March 24, 2017 by LeeLeePanda

[Briony]

Honestly Underground on WGN does so much better with US History.

Look I know SH is a fantasy show, I just can't figure out why it's 'twistory' became such a defining aspect. It was forever clunky with those flashbacks ugh. And like why tease the history nerds when those same folk are at the very least gonna ask you keep your timeline straight and you can't even pay enough attention to your own writing to do that.

Underground is flipping awesome. It's creators are fans of genre and like to look at their characters as the first American super heroes. You can see them get that treatment in the writing. And despite everything being turned up a notch you never once see them use that as a crutch. The history is always treated seriously and used to effectively speak to the modern day.

Sleepy Hollow was never so clever.

[Free]

9 hours ago, Briony said:

Honestly Underground on WGN does so much better with US History.

Look I know SH is a fantasy show, I just can't figure out why it's 'twistory' became such a defining aspect. It was forever clunky with those flashbacks ugh. And like why tease the history nerds when those same folk are at the very least gonna ask you keep your timeline straight and you can't even pay enough attention to your own writing to do that.

Underground is flipping awesome. It's creators are fans of genre and like to look at their characters as the first American super heroes. You can see them get that treatment in the writing. And despite everything being turned up a notch you never once see them use that as a crutch. The history is always treated seriously and used to effectively speak to the modern day.

Sleepy Hollow was never so clever.

It does, SH's 1st season was fun when they went over the top (they had a machine gun wielding headless horsemen) and then they threw it away to be a pseudo Supernatural/X-Files copycat.