Spoiler Discussion: The apple was poisoned?!

[Serena]

I'm actually hoping, like other people have already said, that this is a case of the writers being out of touch with what they're writing, like when Hook supposedly got fed up with Emma being the only woman not to fall for his charm. That ended up being, "One of those days I'm gonna stop chasing this woman" and then one hour later "Nope, I would go to the end of the world for her". So maybe Emma can be like "hey Hook, should we feel bad Regina lost her boyfriend?" and Hook can be like "... what?" and then a while later Emma can be like "on second thought, Regina is a heinous bitch who's ruined my life in countless ways. Quickie in my room while Snowing are out?"

[Shanna Marie]

You know, stuff like this "Emma feels guilty for ruining Regina's relationship" nonsense is almost enough to make me join Twitter so I can hashtag the hell out of these idiots and have the teeniest hope that they might actually see the criticism.

 

However, I can believe that because Emma is basically a good person who is capable of empathy (unlike certain other people on this show), she might still feel bad about causing pain to another person, even Regina, even if she actually did nothing wrong (just as I'm okay with her feeling bad about causing Snow pain by treating her like a stranger, not a mother, even though she actually did nothing wrong, because it hurts when people you care about are hurt). And a good person wouldn't want to cause anyone else additional pain by flaunting a new relationship in the face of someone who's just gone through a breakup, for whatever reason. A smart person wouldn't flaunt a new relationship in the face of a raging sociopath who's just gone through a breakup she blames on her.

 

But I am holding out hope that this might actually be a step on Regina's redemption arc, that she'll realize that her relationship with Robin wasn't all about her, and when you love someone, you hope for the best for that person, not just for yourself, and so if she loves him, she has to be happy for him that his family has been reunited, and that could also be a huge slap in the face to her to realize that she was the one who caused all that pain for him, and that could help set her on the straight and narrow. If that's the case, then I think it would be compassionate of Emma to be delicate about her own new relationship.

 

On the other hand, if Regina goes into full-on psycho Evil Queen mode, Emma might want to distance Hook to protect him, because if Regina wanted revenge over a lost love, the first thing she's likely to do is make Emma suffer the same loss. In that case, Emma might play the "It's totally one-sided, he's into me, but I could not care less" game so that Regina wouldn't target him. Then the guilt she felt might not so much be about hurting Regina as it was about him being in danger over something he warned her about.

[RadioGirl27]

On the other hand, if Regina goes into full-on psycho Evil Queen mode, Emma might want to distance Hook to protect him, because if Regina wanted revenge over a lost love, the first thing she's likely to do is make Emma suffer the same loss. In that case, Emma might play the "It's totally one-sided, he's into me, but I could not care less" game so that Regina wouldn't target him. Then the guilt she felt might not so much be about hurting Regina as it was about him being in danger over something he warned her about.

This would be as bad as when he didn't tell her about the cursed lips. Another ridiculous source of contrived angst.

[Shanna Marie]

Another ridiculous source of contrived angst.

So, basically the most likely scenario on this show, then? ;-)

[pezgirl7]

This whole thing also reminds me of when they made a big deal in articles about Pan telling Hook that Neal was still alive. Everyone wondered what kind of drama that would create, but it was solved within the first 5 minutes of the next episode.

[stealinghome]

Brought over from the Villains thread, talking about how they might turn Rumpel back toward being a bad guy:

They have two ways of bringing him back to full evil mode: they can kill Belle (or she can discover his lies and left him), or they can do sometihing more personal and have him being consumed by his lies to Belle and by his son's death until he loses his mind again. We all now Robert Carlyle would act the hell out of this.

Adam and Eddie keep talking about how we're going to see the effects of Rumpel being Zelena's slave for a year play out next season. I do honestly wonder if they're going to (try to) do some sort of trauma-based storyline (and probably be horribly offensive in the process), wherein Neal's death on top of being enslaved on top of being so mentally fractured for a year just sends Rumpel out of his right mind. Maybe Belle conceives and miscarries (or something like that) and it just makes Rumpel's sanity snap.

Edited June 13, 2014 by stealinghome

[retrograde]

By rights, almost everyone on this show should be out of their minds. The competing memories and identities, many who spent 28 years in misery (some who spent 28 years pregnant!), those who've watched their hearts being ripped from their chest -- not to mention Emma, who has just learned that her 12 years of happy memories of raising her son are totally fake. I'm glad the show has kind of handwaved this stuff -- it'd get too heavy -- but it seems weird for them to suddenly make trauma an issue now.

[kili]

but it seems weird for them to suddenly make trauma an issue now.

 

But, strangely par for the course on this show, it is one of the people responsible for many of the traumas to be the one we are shown suffering from trauma and expected to feel sorry for him. The good guys suffer much worse and they are just supposed to shrug it off.

 

I figure the year of being Zelena's slave was a little bit of karmic payback. I think Robert could act the crap out of going crazy, but I'm not going to feel sorry for Rumple. I love the Rumple character. I do not love Rumple.

[Shanna Marie]

I can see how Rumple might have an extra screw loose or be traumatized by his experiences, but for him to be the actual Big Bad type villain, he'd need some kind of goal. It wouldn't be all that interesting if he were just randomly bouncing around causing chaos because he can. I suppose he could go for power and try to run the town and have total control over everyone in it because he doesn't want to be powerless ever again, and the best defense is a good offense.

 

But any ramp up to pure crazy would have to be pretty gradual, since he seemed awfully sane in the finale. He was able to sound perfectly sincere to Belle, could think quickly enough to alter the recording and cover his tracks, and managed to pull off the wedding. That doesn't seem like someone cracking from trauma. It might take the cracks a while to show, but I'm not sure how they might manifest in a way that would be villain levels of threatening until he reached the point of taking over the town and enslaving everyone. Though I guess that might fit in with the idea of him acting on his best behavior and earning everyone's trust while secretly plotting. I've wondered if that might be where they are with Elsa, where she seems bad because, hello, ice everywhere, and meanwhile here's poor, sweet Rumple, using his magic for good, who so recently lost his son and who not long before that sacrificed himself for the town, so if Elsa is angry at Rumple because he put her in the jar, or whatever, then she looks like the villain, and it's almost too late by the time they realize that he's the real bad guy. But then they've got that recurring character problem, where they don't want to kill him, but how many times can he switch back and forth on the good vs. evil axis before no one trusts him at all anymore and even Belle finally gets a clue?

 

Frankly, I think they've gone overboard with making the villains "sympathetic" and giving them excuses for their evil, especially when they've given their heroes equally big traumas, and none of them have run off and done horrible things in response.

[stealinghome]

Frankly, I think they've gone overboard with making the villains "sympathetic" and giving them excuses for their evil, especially when they've given their heroes equally big traumas, and none of them have run off and done horrible things in response.

Part of the problem they're running into with Regina and Rumpel both is that they moved way too quickly on redeeming them in the first place. Three-quarters of the reason we get whiplash from watching Regina and (less so) Rumpel bounce back and forth is because it really should have taken 3 (Regina) or 4 (Rumpel) seasons to get them to a place where they are really "gray" and able to work with the Charmings. So that's why these traumatic things have to happen to the undynamic duo in the first place--because even for Adam and Eddie, having Regina be "normal" one day and psycho the next with no provocation is just a little too much.

[maryle]

I agree part of the problem is the fast track of the rédemption for both Regina and rumple.

Actually, Rumple  (Dr jekkil miser Hyde ) arc Can be Very créatif if well donne. Regina also but in her case there a Bigger risk of be repetitive if they choose to make her evil and against Emma( because Robin and Mariam) for too long. Instead if they Dare go deeper like how her evil deed had conséquence on others and become more mature because of that twist triangle, it coule be interesting to watch ber journey.

[Dejajeva]

I can not wait until they go back to filming in a few weeks. I'm sure that they aren't in the least ready to go back to work after their vacation but I am so sad without spoilers!!

[Rick Kitchen]

Has anybody said anything about Ginnifer extending a pregnancy leave, or is she ready to start filming?

[Serena]

Has anybody said anything about Ginnifer extending a pregnancy leave, or is she ready to start filming?

We haven't heard anything about that. Personally, I think she'll go back to work (her pregnancy and delivery sounds like it went well), but maybe they'll give her reducend screentime for a while. 

[Rumsy4]

Apparently, the latest on the lame OQ/Marian love triangle is that Robin doesn't love hsi wife anymore, but feel obligated to her. He loves Regina. 

 

http://i--still--do.tumblr.com/post/89470230753/robin-feels-obligation-to-marian-but-he-loves

 

http://merylisoneofakind.tumblr.com/post/89448838675

 

http://storybrookemirror.tumblr.com/post/89450986846/fairy-tale-convention-lana-parrilla-q-a-roundup

 

This is from the recent fairy tale con in Paris, I think. Why even bother, if they are going to treat Marian with such disrespect? Are these actors regurgitating what A&E told them , or is this their personal headcanon?  Lana has clearly drunk A&E's kool aid when it comes to Regina as well. 

Edited June 21, 2014 by Rumsy4

[retrograde]

I'd be surprised if that's anything more than actor opinion/speculation at this point. 

[Camera One]

Wow.  Can they destroy the integrity of Robin Hood even more please?

[Souris]

So Robin & Regina's week-old relationship is deeper than Robin & Marian's years-long one? OK, sure, uh huh.

 

I absolutely do not get why Robin loves Regina. It's just so plot-prescribed, not at all organic. They should have shown them falling for each other in the missing year, instead of being rude to each other. That might have worked. This way doesn't.

 

Lana says she hopes Regina is evil again, but she's also healing and learning to be a better person? That seems rather at odds. Ugh, and she doesn't care that she killed Marian in the past. Still with the not getting it!

[KingOfHearts]

Was Robin in an unhappy marriage with Marian or something? If Robin and Regina were married after being together a long time, I could see him choosing to stay with Regina. But they haven't, so I don't get it. I don't see this "madly in love" vibe from Outlaw Queen. They're not exactly inseparable. 

 

Lana wanting Regina to be evil again... ugh. This show is never going to go anywhere if that happens. We'll be prisoners of time in the eternal Evil Queen curse, experiencing the same over and over again. Her character needs to move on into new territory already. I was really hoping Marian was going to be a turning point for her.

 

We'll just have to see if the writers have a different plan!

Edited June 21, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Serena]

I don't think Sean actually knows something - they haven't gotten any scripts yet. And it's in his best interest to keep pimping Robin/Regina - if he chooses Regina, then Robin stays on the show and Sean still has a job. I mean, ideally he would be for character integrity above all, but he's gotta put food on the table, too.

That said, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Adam and Eddy DID think that Robin's one-week-old love for Regina was stronger than his love for Marian. And I would say, if that is true, that makes him definitely worse than Belle. And I didn't even think it was humanely possible for the writers to create a character worse than her!!

[KingOfHearts]

if that is true, that makes him definitely worse than Belle. And I didn't even think it was humanely possible for the writers to create a character worse than her!!

 

Belle probably has more integrity at this point.

[Rumsy4]

You don't stop loving your wife even if she is dead. And the way Robin speaks of his wife, it seemed like he loved her. I can understand feeling conflicted, but Robin's romance with Regina was five-days old!!!  It really destroys Robin's character if that were the case. So, Emma was in love with the jerk who left her pregnant and holding the bag for 12 years, but Robin Hood no longer loves his wife. Great job, writers!

Edited June 21, 2014 by Rumsy4

[YaddaYadda]

Season 4 sounds like it will long if this really happens.  Why did they even bring Marian in this mess?  They made a huge mistake by not having Regina and Robin fall in love during the lost year, and have a thing for each other before they even had their memories back.  Now I'm supposed to believe that Regina is Robin's greatest love of all?

 

Not bloody likely!

[KingOfHearts]

Marian is just a bad situation all around. I hope it gets downplayed from its unpopularity, like Greg/Tamara in the S3 premiere.

 

Here I thought Outlaw Queen was going to play out all Missing Year and have its wedding crashed by the dark curse!

Edited June 21, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

These spoilers make me actually not want to watch the show in the fall. So much GROSS and UGH and DO NOT WANT.

[sharky]

You don't stop loving your wife even if she is dead. And the way Robin speaks of his wife, it seemed like he loved her. I can understand feeling conflicted, but Robin's romance with Regina was five-days old!!!  It really destroys Robin's character if that were the case.

To be fair, one of those five days was them remembering their time together in the Enchanted Forest. The writers didn't necessarily mess up the story by showing us the five days in Storybrooke, but the did miss an opportunity by not showing us more of what happened in the previous year in the forest. I'm hoping that perhaps having the Knave around may give us the chance to flesh out some flashbacks to give Outlaw Queen more depth.

[KAOS Agent]

I'm hopeful that these are just the actors' current opinions on things. I highly doubt they've seen the script for the premiere yet, so I'm going with their thoughts are personal headcanon. Lana is just all over the place with Regina which is amusing since it's pretty much exactly how the writers have made her. She's got a pure heart, she loves Henry, she's going to go evil, oh wait, she's got light magic now her entire being is changed, she's got fireballs to take on Elsa (whatever happened to heroes don't kill, Regina?), she doesn't care that she killed Marian, her heart is filled with love. I mean, what? If nothing else, Regina should be horrified that she stripped that beautiful child of his mother and caused Robin years of pain. It shows no growth that she's still selfish Regina never considering the consequences of her actions. 

 

I do think she's right in that they'll have something external done to Regina to make her go evil again. That way they won't have to give up the Evil Queen persona but it won't be her fault at all when she kills, curses, terrorizes, etc. a ton of innocent people. In fact, fighting the evilness inside her will make her even more white magical and heroic. True Love's Kiss from Robin will break the evil curse and Marian can just go off and find another man.

[FAU]

So Robin & Regina's week-old relationship is deeper than Robin & Marian's years-long one? OK, sure, uh huh.

 

I absolutely do not get why Robin loves Regina. It's just so plot-prescribed, not at all organic. They should have shown them falling for each other in the missing year, instead of being rude to each other. That might have worked. This way doesn't.

 

Lana says she hopes Regina is evil again, but she's also healing and learning to be a better person? That seems rather at odds. Ugh, and she doesn't care that she killed Marian in the past. Still with the not getting it!

 

Only Poor Regina's happiness matter, everyone else is just a prop who has to live in fear of whenever she backslides according to the writers.

[Dianthus]

s4 is already making my head hurt, and it hasn't even started yet.

The character I feel most sorry for at this point is Marian. Without having a say in it, she's been brought to a strange new realm where the man she still loves (since no time has passed for her) has mourned her loss and moved on, with the woman who was going to have her executed no less!

Then there's Emma and Killian. Emma did the right thing, and Killian went along with it, even though his more practical nature advised against it. So they're left feeling responsible for her predicament. 

Marian wouldn't have been in jeopardy if not for helping Snow. I hope Snow remembers that.

[Serena]

So an ABC exec tweeted the first page of the 401 script. The title is hidden, so nothing really new there. Adam and Eddy are writing it, but that goes without saying. Veteran OUAT direction Ralph Hemecker is directing. 

 

Of course OUAT fans are already photoshopping the pic, changing the brightness/contrast to try to read the second page. See here. Looks like it starts with an Arendelle flashback.

[legaleagle53]

You just know that one of the episode titles in 4A will be "Let It Go."

[Serena]

By analyzing the lenght of the piece of paper covering the title, I predict that it will be at least four words!

[KingOfHearts]

This is what I've been able to make out of the script. The underscores ( _ ) mean I can't make the word out.

 

CABIN - ___ - ARENDELLE

Ah, regal beauty! throws open the door to the _ to gut in for ___. She's
thrown like a rag doll, and got ... _ see no __ ration. Babbling ____. As the ship groans and
threatens to break up, to open a CABINET, she tears through it --

REGAL WOMAN
_______ has to be ___ ...

____ in the middle of this terrible 

____________. ___ a gasp of

___...

 

I'm going to guess this might be when Elsa's parents were in the shipwreck?

Edited June 27, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[retrograde]

Nice sleuthing! Here is another attempt with a few other words (maybe) solved.

 

TVLine has some not exceptionally spoilery spoilers:

 

I’ve read two different Once Upon a Time articles (both quoting TVLine, by the way), one stating that Elsa will be in nine episodes and the other stating that Anna will be in nine episodes. I thought I read on your site that it would be Elsa. Could you please clarify? –MGM
Oh, the Internet. Just one big game of “Telephone,” isn’t it? Elsa will appear in about nine episodes, Anna is slated for six to eight, and Kristoff is in as many as six.

 

Is Once Upon a Time‘s Elsa going to be evil? Or can we assume she will follow the movie character? –Margie
See, that’s the question I had the second it was confirmed who exactly we saw there in the barn. So I asked the series creators if we’ll perhaps be seeing Elsa before — Frozen movie spoiler alert! — she and Anna happily reunited, back when she was in that epic snit. “Maybe yes, maybe no. It could be after,” Adam Horowitz hedged. “One can be in a snit for many reasons.”

 

The casting notice (which the same reporter posted, no less! Come on Matt Mitovich, I know it's slim pickings at the moment, but really) pretty much spelled out that it was after the movie. So I guess the takeaway is that while Elsa won't be a villain (which they have already stated) she will probably be (legitimately?) pissed off at someone (Rumple?). 

[Rhetorica]

TVLine spoilers: 

http://tvline.com/2014/06/26/castle-season-7-did-bracken-kill-rick-spoilers/

I’ve read two different Once Upon a Time articles (both quoting TVLine, by the way), one stating that Elsa will be in nine episodes and the other stating that Anna will be in nine episodes. I thought I read on your site that it would be Elsa. Could you please clarify? –MGM

Oh, the Internet. Just one big game of “Telephone,” isn’t it? Elsa will appear in about nine episodes, Anna is slated for six to eight, and Kristoff is in as many as six.

Is Once Upon a Time‘s Elsa going to be evil? Or can we assume she will follow the movie character? –Margie

See, that’s the question I had the second it was confirmed who exactly we saw there in the barn. So I asked the series creators if we’ll perhaps be seeing Elsa before — Frozen movie spoiler alert! — she and Anna happily reunited, back when she was in that epic snit. “Maybe yes, maybe no. It could be after,” Adam Horowitz hedged. “One can be in a snit for many reasons.”

[formerlyfreedom]

Please take a moment to make sure that you aren't posting spoilers in here that have already been posted. Thanks!

[Shanna Marie]

It looks like that script page is talking about someone looking for something on a ship -- perhaps lending credence to the theories about the urn on the Jolly Roger?

[KAOS Agent]

Given the massive overexposure of Zelena and her many pointless fairybacks, I'm not at all excited to see that not only is Elsa in nine episodes, but Anna & Kristoff are in at least six as well. That's a lot of episodes for non-regulars especially considering they've got to integrate the Knave into the story and Robin Hood is not a regular either.

[Camera One]

If those episodes are in both 4A and 4B, it might be okay, but if it's just 4A, then yeah, that is way too Frozen-heavy.  

Edited June 27, 2014 by Camera One

[FurryFury]

I'm guessing the Charmings will be sidelined yet again. With so many episodes containing rather tangential character (Anna and especially Kristof - I really didn't want to see him, TBH, he didn't have much to do with the plot anyway) and Regina dealing with her Robin/Marian soapy drama, the only other stuff we'll probably get to see is Emma/Hook, and even with them, probably not much. Snow and David will likely be parenting offscreen.

[kili]

I'm going to guess this might be when Elsa's parents were in the shipwreck?

 

I'm going to guess that it is Anna searching for the urn that holds her sister (or the other way around). I don't want to waste 5 seconds on Elsa's terrible parents (I'm sure they meant well, but they were still terrible parents).

[Rumsy4]

Maybe the flasbacks will mostly be a rehash of Frozen. Otherwise I don't see how Anna and Kristoff are going to be in so many episodes. Unless they are somehow in Strobrooke too--which would be a groaner.

Edited June 27, 2014 by Rumsy4

[sharky]

But if they aren't in Storybrooke, it means we'll have six episodes of Frozen flashbacks, which is about five episodes too many.

[KingOfHearts]

When they were casting Kristoff, his description said he was adjusting to life in the castle. I'm going to assume the Frozenbacks take place after the movie. There's less of a risk of tainting the original material if Once steps in after the fact.

[Souris]

I think the Frozenbacks are post-movie, too.

 

I'm going to guess that it is Anna searching for the urn that holds her sister (or the other way around).

 

That makes more sense to me than it being their mother. I would think it would be Anna looking for Elsa, because I can't see much of a reason for anybody (besides Hans out of revenge, or maybe somebody trying to extort Elsa) to urn up Anna.

 

The scene begs the question, Is the ship she's on the Jolly Roger/Jewel of the Realm? If so, why does she think whatever she's looking for is there? And how did she get on the ship? How did what she's looking for get on the ship?

[retrograde]

(I'm sure they meant well, but they were still terrible parents).

They would fit right in in Storybrooke, then.

 

I still think it's extraordinarily unlikely that the urn has anything to do with Hook or his ship. You had to freeze-frame the episode to see what was a similar (but not the same) urn in the background of that scene. This show is not subtle. If it had any significance, I think it would've zoomed right in, and we also would have seen Hook looking more pointedly worried/confused when he suddenly found the urn in Rumple's vault (and only about two days after it had allegedly been on his ship, no less).

 

Ships were generally a pretty important part of Frozen -- it seemed to be the main way to get to and from Arendelle, plus, yknow, the whole dying parents thing. So it would make sense to me that the characters from that story just generally spend a lot of time on boats.  

[FAU]

s4 is already making my head hurt, and it hasn't even started yet.

The character I feel most sorry for at this point is Marian. Without having a say in it, she's been brought to a strange new realm where the man she still loves (since no time has passed for her) has mourned her loss and moved on, with the woman who was going to have her executed no less!

Then there's Emma and Killian. Emma did the right thing, and Killian went along with it, even though his more practical nature advised against it. So they're left feeling responsible for her predicament. 

Marian wouldn't have been in jeopardy if not for helping Snow. I hope Snow remembers that.

 

Poor Marian, she'll be yet another of Regina's victims for daring to support Snow and she's just brought on to be an obstacle/prop after being separated from her family from so long.

[KingOfHearts]

https://twitter.com/joshdallas/status/482678561459814400

 

Josh tweeted this today:

 

 

Well, just finished reading the Premier EP to Season 4 of @OnceABC! You won't believe what happens! See ya this fall!

 

I hope the S4 premiere has a bigger twist than the S3 finale did, if this is any indication.

[Rumsy4]

When they were casting Kristoff, his description said he was adjusting to life in the castle. I'm going to assume the Frozenbacks take place after the movie. There's less of a risk of tainting the original material if Once steps in after the fact.

 

I think they will have to do at least one or two flashback episodes set within the timeline of the movie--they can't just assume that all their viewers would have seen Frozen, and I'm sure they will change some details. I think it is going to be a bad move either way, to have so many episodes dedicated to characters who are only going to be part of one half season. Between Frozen, the Knave, and the inevitable Woegina pity parties, we are once again going to be left will little time to focus on the regulars.

Edited June 28, 2014 by Rumsy4

[BoPeeps]

I was hoping someone could fiddle with that script! (and no doubt Adam and Eddy knew they would as well, or they could have put a blank sheet behind the title page.) Unless they will suddenly leak a new *death of a major character for real and ever and ever, probably* rumor, they have to keep the anticipation angst pretty high. They have taken a massive risk bringing Elsa in. It is bold but it also could be lethal to the show's core character.

 

Though they have set up some potentially intriguing plot elements (Rumple's lie, the ludicrous no win Marian situation, Regina vs Emma vs white/dark magic, adorability level Henry vs Roland vs little mini Prince Neal ~still gag me with a spoon on the name~heh) Elsa and her Frozen cohorts could enrich or totally disable every other character on the show. The potential to become small screen pansy butt Frozen2 and bring in a much younger and frankly, less fun, audience element is looming heavily over the writers' heads.

They have set themselves up to fall pretty fast and hard if they mess too much with the demographics of the faithful audience.

 

She can't be too wicked because of her popularity and she can't be too good because of the need for a worthy antagonist. I frankly didn't like her that much in the movie and found Anna much more interesting. Snow Queen would be far more intriguing, but this IS Disney owned ABC.

 

~Actors at cons are there to talk and drum up business for their shows. SO I imagine a lot of the banter is speculation, marketing, wishful thinking and sometimes just throw away chatter, besides being a genuine kick in the butt ego booster for the performers.

Lana (and I adore her frenetic soul) was all over the place, but really, when you are dealing with the total mess of the drama A&E have set up regarding Marian and Robin and Regina, how can she be anything else but totally OUT there and somewhat lost?

The Hooded Triangle is absolutely NO WIN. The Robin Hood Legend is far, far bigger an iconic deal than any of the other fractured fairy tale elements of ONCE.

 

A&E may have, in one finale half minute, with Marian AND Elsa bitten off far more than they could literally chew.