Spoiler Discussion: The apple was poisoned?!

[Sabs]

 

 

That's what I think also. As if Emma's taunting Gold with Killian's face.

 

Plus, the weird change of Hook's clothes... it just doesn't add up.

[Rumsy4]

That's what I thought until the spoiler about Killian's name on Excalibur came out. Besides, it makes more sense for Rumple and Killian to fight if this arc brings about the end of to the Dark One for good. Those two have been at odds over this almost from the beginning. 

Edited October 17, 2015 by Rumsy4

[mjgchick]

Maybe this is a Killian is now at peace with The Dark One without killing Rumple.

[Rumsy4]

Gold has got to be trying to regain his power by taking Excalibur. Whatever Dark Swan's plans are, the Darkness must have realized it's not in line with its wishes. So, it's goading Gold to take the Dark One mantle back again. Maybe the only way to do it is for Gold to the stab the current Dark One (Emma) with Excalibur. Killian is fighting to keep him away from Emma, who may be incapacitated in some form. It's an inversion of the scene on the Jolly Roger with pirate Killian and peasant Rumple, and brings their arc to a full circle.  

[Sabs]

Hmmm... very confusing.  I love it!  Last year it felt like we had already seen the entire show before it even aired because the spoilers were so obvious.  I honestly have no idea what the outcome of this arc is going to be.  I don't even mind if Emma can't be "cured"- I suspect she won't be the same after(if) they remove the darkness.  Kind of like how all of the characters have bipolar personalities- their fairytale selves and their cursed versions, and the are all "both" now.

[scenicbyway]

So, I think Emma "dies" in Swan Song.  Swan Songs are endings, whatever 5.12 is will be a beginning and not just because it's the 5b premiere and 100th episode (that I wouldn't be surprised to see as 2 hours long).  Think about the 5a premiere, Emma is "reborn" as the Dark One, she's even wet.  And under difficult circumstances, Hook again leads the way to find her, in fact she says something like, "how'd you?" and he's says "don't I always?"  Hook always finds a way to Emma so even when it looks like all hope is lost, I expect Hook will find Emma, (perhaps in the Underworld (ugh), perhaps somewhere else).

 

Adam and Eddy and Jenn have said that Emma is still the Savior, that's still her role even if Regina is trying to cover for her while slightly usurping at the same time.  I think Emma will be "reborn" as the Savior and it will be Hook that brings her back to Storybrooke (again).

 

Obviously, there's some kind of connection with Killian and Excalibur for his name to end up on the sword as well.  Maybe it's as easy as being Emma's true love, maybe he's the rightful King of Storybrooke, who knows at this point.  We know his rings have a connection, maybe they are family rings or maybe they are pirate's booty, I would imagine they have a more personal significance because he is never without them.

 

Where does Killian's dad fit in?  Well, there's a strong chance that we'll see him in flashback since they've also cast a young Killian (though it is possible they'd just show little Killian alone?).  It's possible he's still around, but it seems odd that Killian wouldn't know that.  It's possible he's Davy Jones (please no) although the actor has said his name isn't Davy.  Whatever his role, I think if it were going to be really significant for 5b they would've picked a more well known actor.  You can't really build an arc around an actor or character that isn't well known.  I know that Pirates of the Carribean is well known, but is that where the Once audience is drawn from? 

First and foremost the show is Emma's journey and Hook has a major role in that but not enough to warrant a half season of 5b focused on his father.  They also aren't going to go to the Underworld for an entire arc, they learned their lesson with months of walking around the forest and potted plant soundstage for Neverland.

[YaddaYadda]

I think the Excalibur with Killian's name on it is like the chalice with Doctoberfest on it. Maybe they are celebrating Killian's birthday.

 

Okay, I laughed at this. It's easier to get him a sword with his name on it, than a cake with I don't know how many candles.

 

About this whole "hell" thing, I could be wrong, I'm wrong about a lot of things when it comes to this show, but aren't we maybe being too literal with this? Maybe "Hell" comes to Storybrooke instead, which I still have no idea what it would mean. I think PixiePaws might be onto something with this;

 

One of my first theories was that Emma would be freed from the Darkness but instead of getting rid of it, it took on its own sentient form...maybe the Hell referred to is actually Hell in SB.

 

I think getting rid of the darkness will have consequences. You either destroy it or you banish it. But can something like that be banished for long before it comes back since there is magic in Storybrooke? Of course, they'll think they've succeeded, and then we will be back at it because poor suckers can't have 5 minutes peace. 

 

New writer who talks a lot on Twitter said as an answer to someone who asked if she was going to cry that it's a good kind of cry. I guess we have the next 2 episodes as a scale for what she's been saying.

[OnceUponAJen]

Is it significant that they're outfitting Adam Croasdell in leather pants? Is he a pirate too? The Twitterverse is assuming he is.

[OnceUponAJen]

He's constantly referring to himself as a pirate, so I think it's safe to assume so.

I thought it was possible that he might just be playing that up for the fans since he's going to play the father of a famous pirate. I may be trying to read too much into it, and should take it at face value.

[Hookian]

None of the QOD's when they came on were well known, that doesn't mean they were not the focus of the next arc in 4B. The same thing here, the fact that Hook's father is in the mid-season finale is a huge set up for him being  a main player and yes alive in present day in S5B.

 

The only way he could be alive is if he's taken up the moniker of Davy Jones even though that's not his true name.

Edited October 18, 2015 by Hookian

[KingOfHearts]

Here's my new speculation about the Underworld. Instead of going there to save someone, like Neverland or Camelot, a portal opens to it in Storybrooke, unleashing some baddies and monsters. Maybe some undead characters.

Edited October 18, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[snarkastic]

Here's my new speculation about the Underworld. Instead of going there to save someone, like Neverland or Camelot, a portal opens to it in Storybrooke, unleashing some baddies and monsters. Maybe some undead characters.

It can be the "price" they pay for getting rid of the darkness for good.

[HoodlumSheep]

^ I'd be fine with a portal that brings the Horned King from the underworld/hell to Storybrooke. I don't want too many baddies like they did with 4b (Rumple, QOD, Isaac, Zelena--that's 6 villains!!!!).

I'm still kind of sad that my wish/theory of the Horned King being the original DO didn't pan out, although I've been quite happy with Camelot so far (we'll see if that lasts after tonight's episode).

Edited October 18, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[Curio]

If 5B ends up being all about the Underworld, it would be cool if they explore Dante's Inferno and have each episode focus a different level of Hell. All the levels are different enough so that it wouldn't be a Neverland situation; one level could take place in an Enchanted Forest looking setting while another episode could be on a sound stage in a cave. And with how this entire show is supposedly about "hope," they'd have to tie in Dante's line about "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here."

Edited October 18, 2015 by Curio

[retrograde]

People on tumblr are spending a lot of time on thoroughly researched theories about what the tiny details on Hook's rings could mean in relation to his dad. But I bet it just ends up being that his dad left him one of the rings when he ran off or something. 

[KingOfHearts]

 

I don't want too many baddies like they did with 4b (Rumple, QOD, Isaac, Zelena--that's 6 villains!!!!).

If they go undead characters, Cora would probably make the most sense. They've already summoned her spirit from the afterlife once in Storybrooke. The only issue would be the lack of physical body, but I guess she could possess one and perform a shape-shifting spell.

 

In other news, I'm mildly excited about tonight's episode. I can't wait to get a few of the juicy details on Lancelot and Guinevere.

Edited October 18, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[pezgirl7]

People on tumblr are spending a lot of time on thoroughly researched theories about what the tiny details on Hook's rings could mean in relation to his dad. But I bet it just ends up being that his dad left him one of the rings when he ran off or something.

Except Eddie said the symbols on Hook’s ring are a clue to his past, not just the ring. A lot of the theories I've seem seem very far fetched or very grand, like turning Hook into a king. One theory I saw that I did like was that the flowers on the largest ring looked like lotuses, which are associated with the underworld.

[YaddaYadda]

Putting aside the rings containing Easter eggs, those things are incredibly elaborate. I've been looking at them since the Excalibur promo poster was released, because I'm crazy that way when I get an idea in my head. 

 

The ginormous ring has a person engraved on it. 

 

I like the idea that all the gates of the underworld would open in Storybrooke and all the villains or most of them would come back to haunt the town. Zelena might get to meet her mother and realize she's not such a great person.

[Dianthus]

It would certainly make sense for one or more of Hook's pieces to be enchanted. I used the idea in a fan-fic I wrote, and I'm sure others have done the same. Given that we've seen other enchanted objects in the past, it would even offer up some (gasp!) continuity.

[daxx]

I strongly suspect his flask is enchanted to be endless. lol

[PixiePaws1]

Dianthus. ...I put up with a lot on this forum but throwing around that swear word 'continuity' ...that's just going too far! :o))))

Seriously I think it's really Killian fighting Gold.

[YaddaYadda]

Seriously I think it's really Killian fighting Gold.

 

I'm pretty sure it is too.

 

As it stands, episode 5x08 is a legitimate 2 hour episode, and we will be getting both 5x10 and 5x11 on December 6th.

 

I have a pretty good idea what 5x08 will entail. And I'm even more convinced now 5x09 is the Arthur episode. I think that's the episode when we will see Excalibur put back together.

[formerlyfreedom]

Discussion of the latest episode will be going on in the episode topic. We'll reopen this topic sometime on Monday.

 

Thanks for posting!

[Bluerang1]

I was wondering how everyone first heard about the Underworld arc fro 5B? From my lurking since 5A started it seems like it was something that was randomly brought up and somehow a lucky guess. Which happens A LOT with this show.

[Serena]

I was wondering how everyone first heard about the Underworld arc fro 5B? From my lurking since 5A started it seems like it was something that was randomly brought up and somehow a lucky guess. Which happens A LOT with this show.

Eddy revealed it at New York Comic Con.

[scenicbyway]

Eddy revealed it at New York Comic Con.

Not really, Eddy said something and fans have taken the leap that it means the Underworld.  I've seen speculation about going to the Underworld since season 2.

[Serena]

Yes, he said that 5B's theme/description was "Hell", so of course people took that to mean the Underworld. I think because of the kind of show this is, there's been speculation about basically anything, and we've had hints of the Greek gods/myths existing since early season 1 (we have had Midas, sirens, Poseidon and then we just got 502), so the Underworld is a logical next step.

[Souris]

I think the Underworld talk actually started in earnest when Charon showed up in 5x02. Eddy's comment really kicked it into overdrive.

[Mathius]

The writer of 5x02 also said to pay attention to Charon, JMO is reading a book called "Underworld", and also: many people guessed Neverland for Season 3 when Season 2 was airing and Camelot for Season when Season 4 was airing, so these kinds of mass fan guesses usually prove correct.

[YaddaYadda]

In light of last night's episode, and Arthur going off the rail completely. Is it safe to assume that he freed Zelena?

 

One of Arthur's "grievances" was that the Nevengers have magic on their side, which he has in very limited supplies. Zelena has magic, and she would love to stick it to her sister. Of course, Zelena could also steal the dagger for herself and unleash Emma on everyone.

[Hookian]

So I think the Killian is the true orphaned king of Camelot theory has gained a lot of ground after last nights episode,lol.

 

Now don't get me wrong, he's not actually gonna rule Camelot. He's just the king Merlin was referring to in the prophesy. That will bring an end to the darkness and restore the broken kingdom and sword. Him and Emma both will be identified as the true king and queen of Camelot.

Edited October 19, 2015 by Hookian

[Shanna Marie]

He's just the king Merlin was referring to in the prophesy. That will bring an end to the darkness and restore the broken kingdom and sword.

Or it's possible that it was a Harry Potter kind of thing, where the prophecy could have referred to either one, and it was their actions that determined which one would really end up being the true king that would restore the kingdom (though in the HP case, it was Voldemort's actions that determined which one the prophecy was about). Arthur was able to draw the sword without being killed, so he had at least the potential to be the rightful king. He just screwed it up. And fortunately, there may be another rightful heir still out there who can do it the right way.

 

And if it turns out that it has something to do with Papa Hook, going way back, then the fact that Arthur looks so much like Hook could actually matter, since they'd be distantly related. There could have been the last true king, and his sons were scattered when whatever bad stuff happened. One ended up going on the run with his boys, another stayed there, and centuries later his descendant was a nobody.

 

I noticed in the non-spoiler speculation thread that there's a lot of talk about Henry and Violet and whether she's real. Wasn't there a spoiler about a lot of heartbreak? I suspect the fact that she's brainwashed by the overall Camelot spell and he didn't get a dose when Arthur brainwashed the newcomers (interesting how the ploy to get Emma and Hook away also meant that Henry was away when that went down) may end up being what breaks them up.

[scenicbyway]

Dark Emma's actions seem to indicate that she knows either the prophecy or the sword has Killian's name on it.  She's protecting him by using Rumple as a decoy instead.  I don't think Emma actually wants to give into the darkness and I don't think she has completely, that's why shadow Rump is around.

 

On another note, Dark Emma really isn't that dark and I suppose it's because she has to be redeemable in 6 more episodes. 

 

It's interesting that Merida is trapped in the Castle and it gives fuel to the theory that Lancelot is dead because he should be in Storybrooke too.

[Mari]

Plus, it wouldn't be logical (and yes, I know, TS TW) for her to be suddenly mwhahahaing everyone's demise, even if she was truly enjoying being the Dark One.

Emma has always been a stronger, and more caring person than Rumple was, even before he killed Zoso. At his worst, Rumple didn't seem to be killing people and making them miserable just for entertainment. Usually they wanted a deal and backed out, or he thought they deserved it for some reason--like stealing from him or hitting on Belle.

I'm not saying he was good, or that his victims deserved it, but he didn't usually go "It's Friday night. How about we torture the villagers for giggles? Drinks on me, after." It would make sense that Emma's got skewed priorities and very muted empathy, but is not planning everyone's death and dismemberment.

Are we sure that she's done being the Dark Swan at the end of 5a? I know the episode is Swan Song, but the title could be deliberately misleading.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Are we sure that she's done being the Dark Swan at the end of 5a? I know the episode is Swan Song, but the title could be deliberately misleading.

If she's not the DO any more, there should be strong repercussions still. But then again it's this show, so that might be a 15 second conversation at Granny's with beer and Regina.

[mjgchick]

Wasn't their a spoiler about Emma and Hooks relationship happened for a reason and we'll figure it out in the first 11 episodes of the season which now that we know it's because both their names are on that sword makes sense. I wonder if they continue that in 5b as well.

[LizaD]

 

JMO is reading a book called "Underworld"

I've seen this going around and I would just like to point out that she was reading Dellilo's Underworld which has absolutely nothing to do with the literal place of Underworld/Hell or greek mythology. It's about the zeitgeist of America post-WWII to 90s.

 

That said ep. 2 Woegina's centric and NYCC points to Underworld and conveniently comes with a Disney Hercules tie-in. It's an obvious choice.

 

 

Are we sure that she's done being the Dark Swan at the end of 5a?

 

Yes. I think A&E said so. At the very least they said 5B is something completely different from DS.

 

 

Arthur was able to draw the sword without being killed, so he had at least the potential to be the rightful king

Does it have to do with being a king and the rightful heir at all? The DOs don't seem to think so. They just want a pure hearted hero and while the goal is a bit murky it doesn't seem to have a thing about ruling Camelot. Maybe Arthur misinterpreted Merlin's prophecy and we know he doesn't bother clarifying. Ingrid spent how many years obsessing over the savior named Emma that she thought was going to be her sister? Only that's not what Merlin meant at all.

[retrograde]

I actually think it would be really funny if in the finale, everyone thinks it's all over, then another one of those demons from 5.02 comes and snatches Regina away to hell all, "What? You never paid the price. Did you think we forgot?"

[scenicbyway]

I actually think it would be really funny if in the finale, everyone thinks it's all over, then another one of those demons from 5.02 comes and snatches Regina away to hell all, "What? You never paid the price. Did you think we forgot?"

Party at Granny's!

 

They'll never learn...

Wasn't their a spoiler about Emma and Hooks relationship happened for a reason and we'll figure it out in the first 11 episodes of the season which now that we know it's because both their names are on that sword makes sense. I wonder if they continue that in 5b as well.

I thought it was JMo speaking at NYC Comic Con about how Emma's actions in this arc have a lot to do with Hook and it will become clear eventually (perhaps when his name is reveal on the sword?) why she's acting the way she is as the Dark One.

[YaddaYadda]

So Emma is using a dreamcatcher to see how Merlin was turned into a tree?

 

So that curse is clearly not hers. If she doesn't know how to turn Merlin into a tree, then she doesn't know how to turn anyone into one if they try to leave town.

 

And already knew Arthur didn't want Merlin released after he stole the magic mushroom from David. At this point, I'm guessing he found a lot more about that prophecy that said he would one day be king, and I'm guessing that he is scared he will be completely removed once Merlin is released.

 

I'm sort of hoping that the BTS from 5x05 about Merlin yelling "you ruined my life" is really Arthur yelling at Merlin "you ruined my life" because he sort of did.

[mjgchick]

I wonder if Arthur already knows he's not the rightful person to hold Excalibur and that's why he's being sneaky. It partially has to do with the tip being broken (This will never not sound dirty.) but maybe Killian's name is on it already. Does he even know Killian's name? Those two have never talked once.

[Rumsy4]

What does it mean that "Mary Margaret and David attempt to retrieve the Dark One dagger" in Camelot? Doesn't Regina still have it? Or has Regina refused to hand the Dagger over to Arthur, and Snowing are trying to retrieve it secretly so they can hand it to Arthur? 

[scenicbyway]

What does it mean that "Mary Margaret and David attempt to retrieve the Dark One dagger" in Camelot? Doesn't Regina still have it? Or has Regina refused to hand the Dagger over to Arthur, and Snowing are trying to retrieve it secretly so they can hand it to Arthur? 

I think it means that Regina would at least check with Emma first before handing the dagger over.  Regina did say she spent all day hiding it so perhaps she and Emma will have a little adventure to find it?  Anyone else think she hid it behind a random door in the Castle and then "hung out" with Robin the rest of the time?

[LizaD]

Well if she's using a dreamcatcher to find how Merlin was turned into a tree then none of the DOs did it. He trapped himself?

 

Also if Arthur was being all shady how come Merlin didn't take care of the dude? I can't believe the most powerful magician won't be able to tell that Camelot is a fake product of magic.

[Bluerang1]

Thanks to Serena and someone else for answering my question Re: The Underworld. I mistakenly posted it in the wrong thread!

I hope it means Herucles for 5B!

[Free]

Yes. I think A&E said so. At the very least they said 5B is something completely different from DS.

 

I hope so, I don't want DS to last beyond this half.

[Souris]

I noticed in the non-spoiler speculation thread that there's a lot of talk about Henry and Violet and whether she's real. Wasn't there a spoiler about a lot of heartbreak? I suspect the fact that she's brainwashed by the overall Camelot spell and he didn't get a dose when Arthur brainwashed the newcomers (interesting how the ploy to get Emma and Hook away also meant that Henry was away when that went down) may end up being what breaks them up.

 

I hope Dark Swan doesn't kill or hurt Violet. That would be a bit much for the family audience. It could be an accident in SB, like DS approaches Violet while she's on a horse, it spooks the horse & she falls off.

 

Another theory I have is that DS scares Violet somehow and she tells Henry she doesn't want to hang out with him anymore b/c his mother is the Dark One. Henry could go petulant teen and tell DS he hates her and doesn't want to be around her again. That would be a "heartbreaker" for Dark Swan like Brigitte spoiled, because she'd "lose" Henry like she "lost" Hook in 5x03. It would be painful for all concerned -- and A&E spoiled that the Henry/Violet ship wouldn't end well -- but not something SO AWFUL that Emma couldn't come back from it.

 

Wasn't their a spoiler about Emma and Hooks relationship happened for a reason and we'll figure it out in the first 11 episodes of the season which now that we know it's because both their names are on that sword makes sense. I wonder if they continue that in 5b as well.

 

Yeah, Eddy said that their relationship would be a big part of the first 11 eps and we'd discover the "why" of it at the end.

[Hookian]

Yeah, Eddy said that their relationship would be a big part of the first 11 eps and we'd discover the "why" of it at the end.

 

Them being joined on the soul probably has to do with it.

 

I wonder if Killian does indeed get sent to the Underworld in the finale, will Emma be able to feel that he's still alive if they're been joined by something like a heart? 

 

I think the finale will end with everyone on their way to the Underworld to get Killian back while Killian comes face to face with a ghost from his past his father, whom like him is trapped in The Underworld but is alive.

[retrograde]

Is it possible hell will open up and unleash all the villains on Storybrooke instead? That would be awesome if it led the a "baddie of the week" kinda thing.

 

ETA: Interesting photos. Is that Emma getting into Arthur's magical box of treasures (I can't remember what he called it)? I'm guessing she uses ~Teh Dark Magicks~ to protect Henry from something. I like Hook and Robin as friends -- it makes sense. 

Edited October 20, 2015 by retrograde

[KingOfHearts]

 

Is it possible hell will open up and unleash all the villains on Storybrooke instead? That would be awesome if it led the a "baddie of the week" kinda thing.

Yep. That's what I was saying upthread. It fits the formula of showcasing a different land in the first arc (Neverland, Arendelle) and showcasing Storybrooke in the second.

Edited October 20, 2015 by KingOfHearts