Ratings and Scheduling: Hail to the Gods

[Primal Slayer]

 While those numbers are vast improvements from the shows typical numbers I feel like they are still kind of low for a crossover? Or maybe my expectations were to high. 

[Guest]

They're good for how the shows are performing this season but as a crossover, they seem low to me. But what do we expect when they base their whole crossover on Nazis. I know quite a few people who refused to watch on principle. 

Edited November 28, 2017 by Guest

[apinknightmare]

I think the crossovers just have diminishing returns at this point - next year's will probably be lower, and lower after that if they even do one (assuming all the shows are still on, which they may not be). 

Edited November 28, 2017 by apinknightmare

[Starfish35]

It does seem very low for a crossover event.   But then, last year all the shows (except Flash) weren't getting 0.5s either.  Still.  

[Chaser]

Are they normally even across the board in demo for the crossovers? 

[SmallScreenDiva]

18 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I think the crossovers just have diminishing returns at this point - next year's will probably be lower, and lower after that if they even do one (assuming all the shows are still on, which they may not be). 

I agree ... it's just like with the regular ratings, dropping as time goes on. I do wonder if there would have been a slightly bigger bump if they hadn't chosen Nazis. Because like @Angel12d I know several friends who are not watching out of principle as well.

[Starfish35]

Last year's crossover (Heroes vs Aliens):

• Supergirl increased from 0.9 and 2.6 million viewers to 1.1 and 3.53 million viewers.
• The Flash increased from 1.1 and 2.95 million viewers to 1.5 and 4.15 million viewers.
• Arrow increased from 0.7 and 1.86 million viewers to 1.3 and 3.55 million viewers.
• Legends increased from 0.6 and 1.85 million viewers to 1.2 and 3.39 million viewers

2015 crossover (Intro of Hawks and Vandal Savage):

• The Flash's demo stayed the same at 1.4 and viewers increased from 3.46 million to 3.94 million.
• Arrow increased from 1.1 and 2.69 million viewers to 1.4 and 3.66 million viewers.

2014 crossover (the first):

• The Flash increased from 1.4 and 3.47 million viewers to 1.6 and 4.34 million viewers.
• Arrow increased from 0.9 and 2.64 million viewers to 1.4 and 3.92 million viewers.

Source: Spotted Ratings

Edited November 28, 2017 by Starfish35
Adding 2014 and 2015 numbers

[Morrigan2575]

I figured they'd be over 1.0 in the demo so I'm a little surprised by these numbers. I think it's one or possibly a combination of these factors:

1) Wasn't promoted enough

2) Starting on Supergirl which was pretty much skippable last year, gave weak Monday night numbers. Flash is the only proven ratings draw for any show. Will see tomorrow if Flash has a huge increase over Supergirl/Arrow.

3) Law of Diminishing Returns, the shows (even Flash) are doing significantly lower ratings this season, so the Crossover is going to draw less.

[leopardprint]

13 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

3) Law of Diminishing Returns, the shows (even Flash) are doing significantly lower ratings this season, so the Crossover is going to draw less.

I think it's mostly this, the crossover is basically a giant marketing gimmick (which didn't seem very well promoted) and like all gimmicks they lose effectiveness. 

I wonder if they will scale back next year's crossover because I don't know if barely scraping 1.0 is worth the trouble and cost. 

I also wonder if it would have been better to start on The Flash and move Supergirl and LOT. 

Maybe there is Superhero Teamup Fatigue. There were three big superhero teamup movies this year already. (JL, Thor, GOTG2)

Edited November 28, 2017 by leopardprint

[NumberCruncher]

I think it's the law of diminishing returns as well.  It was a novelty, but obviously now not so much.  Also, considering how weak the last two crossover events were in terms of story and moving actual plot along on all the respective standalone shows, I imagine some people spared themselves watching irrelevant plot lines and characters they didn't know.

[Starfish35]

Unrounded preliminary ratings from RJK at SpottedRatings.com:

Quote

Supergirl .................................... 0.851 ... (0.848 ... 0.854)
Arrow special ............................. 0.856 ... (0.890 ... 0.822)

[leopardprint]

31 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

Unrounded preliminary ratings from RJK at SpottedRatings.com:

Can we blame that half hour drop on the directing? 

[lemotomato]

Those are really interesting half hour breakdowns. So more people tuned in for Arrow than Supergirl, but then more people tuned out at the end? Early bedtimes  or what?

[tv echo]

Ratings: Arrowverse Crossover Opener Lifts Supergirl, Arrow to 1-Year Highs
By Matt Webb Mitovich / November 28 2017, 8:30 AM PST
http://tvline.com/2017/11/28/arrowverse-crossover-ratings-crisis-earth-x-supergirl-arrow/

Quote

All told, The CW enjoyed its most-watched Monday since Jan. 12, 2009 and its highest-rated one in more than six years (since April 25, 2011).

[BkWurm1]

2 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I figured they'd be over 1.0 in the demo so I'm a little surprised by these numbers. I think it's one or possibly a combination of these factors:

1) Wasn't promoted enough

2) Starting on Supergirl which was pretty much skippable last year, gave weak Monday night numbers. Flash is the only proven ratings draw for any show. Will see tomorrow if Flash has a huge increase over Supergirl/Arrow.

3) Law of Diminishing Returns, the shows (even Flash) are doing significantly lower ratings this season, so the Crossover is going to draw less.

Promotion really wasn't good.  Over on the Supergirl board, one regular viewer even mentioned they'd no idea it was a crossover and how confused they were about what was happening until the show finally went to Kara.  And because of that, I can see Supergirl viewers just not bothering with the crossover at all.  That's the show in the Arrowverse least integrated into the verse.  

Plus I agree, the last two years had kind of sucky and forgettable crossovers.  This crossover has the potential of restoring the event's reputation of being good, but we'll see.  

[Trisha]

4 hours ago, leopardprint said:

I wonder if they will scale back next year's crossover because I don't know if barely scraping 1.0 is worth the trouble and cost.

I think the crazy amount of press they get might still outweigh the low ratings (for CW only) because frankly, this is pretty much the only time shows like Arrow and Legends get wide coverage. But yeah, these numbers are not good for a crossover:

[lemotomato]

Arrow and Supergirl made it on to Nielsen's social rankings. 

[Morrigan2575]

Thursday Finals are in, no change

[ruby24]

I think all the crossovers really should start on The Flash, if they want to maximize ratings. They should have moved Supergirl and Arrow.

[kismet]

I think the crossovers are not doing as well as they could be for multiple reasons. They picked a weak show to start it on. Moving shows make even less sense. Just start it in a logical place or strong show and finish it off wherever it needs to. I don't think it even needs to be in the same week. It was probably better advertised than I remember other seasons, especially considering I barely watch the CW.

I also think the annual tradition has lost all of its luster. This concept of xover was organically cool, now it just feels forced like a bad Holiday commitment. I think they need to reconsider if they need a crossover. And if they do need one, it should be either at the start of the season or after the winter finale. It makes no sense to break the flow of 4 seasons of TV just for a few hours of overcrowded action scenes. At least if you varied it up every season, it would bring a freshness to it.

It is just a concept that idealistically could be cool, but logistically has failed to deliver and is starting to show it's weaknesses.

Edited November 28, 2017 by kismet

[leopardprint]

I wonder if streaming is affecting the crossovers as well since people don't see promos? I can't recall any shown when I watch the app though I also didn't watch the Slade episodes. They should have all been talking about the wedding in last week's episodes.

Maybe they should do the crossover as a bonus for the DVDs? 

Edited November 28, 2017 by leopardprint

[quarks]

2 hours ago, Trisha said:

 

 

While I agree that these numbers aren't up to previous seasons, this argument and the numbers chosen are misleading, at best - and not just because we haven't seen tonight's numbers. Because no, the crossover episodes have not been fairly bulletproof. They've just, in general, tracked with Flash's numbers - among the highest performing episodes of the season, sure, but generally only getting a modest bump. The Arrow crossover numbers have pretty much matched the Flash numbers for that season.  In fact, in seasons 1 and 2, the crossover episodes weren't even the best performing episodes on Flash - both the pilot and the second episode did better in the demo, and the episode right after the crossover actually had more viewers. In season 2, the best performing episodes on Flash were the two Earth-2 episodes that came several weeks later. 

The exception came last year, when Flash did enjoy a major bump in viewers and in the demo. This happened after two different events: 1) Supergirl moved to the CW and 2) Flash's numbers, up until that point considerably above Arrow's on a season to season comparison, started to drop, with 6 episodes in Flash season 3A earning fewer than 3 million viewers, and the demo dropping from a relatively steady 1.3/1.4 in season two to a 1.0 in season 3. 

So yes, Flash got a season high - after a major drop.  But that was hardly a bulletproof situation. That 3.54/1.28 noted above? Was a drop from the 4.15/1.5 that Flash earned the previous evening - and not just a drop, but the biggest percentage drop between Flash and Arrow of any of the three crossover events so far.  This was followed by another drop for Legends of Tomorrow, to a 3.39/1.2.  

Meanwhile, back to this season, so far, actually, the crossover episodes are doing exactly what they did in previous seasons - pretty much matching this year's top Flash numbers.  Leaving aside the Halloween episode, which was an outlier, Flash has been hovering between 2.20 and 2.62 million viewers, gaining 2.84 viewers in its season premiere, and getting about a .8/.9 in the demo.  And what did Supergirl and Arrow get last night? Between 2.54 and 2.65 million viewers, and a .9 in the demo - right in line with this season's Flash numbers.  Which is a bump for both Arrow and Supergirl, since Flash has been outperforming both in the live numbers this year.

And since it seems likely that that season 3 Flash bump came from Supergirl, which has also dropped in the numbers this season, yeah, actually, the crossover numbers are so far performing pretty much exactly as expected this season - giving boosts to shows not named Flash. The problem isn't the crossovers, exactly; it's that Flash's numbers this season are below Arrow's season four numbers. 

 

1 hour ago, ruby24 said:

I think all the crossovers really should start on The Flash, if they want to maximize ratings. They should have moved Supergirl and Arrow.

 

See above. Doing a teaser tie-in on Supergirl last season gave Flash the only real crossover bump it's ever had.

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, kismet said:

I think the crossovers are not doing as well as they could be for multiple reasons. They picked a weak show to start it on. Moving shows make even less sense. Just start it in a logical place or strong show and finish it off wherever it needs to. I don't think it even needs to be in the same week. It was probably better advertised than I remember other seasons, especially considering I barely watch the CW.

I also think the annual tradition has lost all of its luster. This concept of xover was organically cool, now it just feels forced like a bad Holiday commitment. I think they need to reconsider if they need a crossover. And if they do need one, it should be either at the start of the season or after the winter finale. It makes no sense to break the flow of 4 seasons of TV just for a few hours of overcrowded action scenes. At least if you varied it up every season, it would bring a freshness to it.

It is just a concept that idealistically could be cool, but logistically has failed to deliver and is starting to show it's weaknesses.

 

Start of the season is impossible since they all have finale's to pick up from usually and that's the same problem with after the midseason finale.  Too many balls in the air. And same for as the season progresses.  It just gets too complicated both story wise and behind the scenes logistically. 

I wonder if the better time to do it would be for like for the fourth episode,  so not right away but not too close to any finale's.  Then though you have complications of just not enough time to get it done which is probably what bumps it to the 8th episode of the season, lol.  

[Primal Slayer]

They need the crossover more after hiatus then they do at the beginning of the season since the ratings drop more when they return. If anything reconfigure the mid season finales to end on a note that sets up the crossover. The crossover may not be as big as it was but it still brings in the most viewers for each show usually and it's one of the brief times CW actually promotes. 

[leopardprint]

What they should really do is drop all the shows down to 22 or 15? for LOT and show the crossover during one of the midseason breaks. 

[way2interested]

Ha, what Netflix has proven to me is that even the shortest seasons of shows have bland filler episodes, so personally I'd rather not sacrifice more story for the slim chance of a good crossover.

[nightwing877]

Maybe it would be better if the crossovers were treated as specials and not apart of the seasons and numbering. Because let's face it, the crossovers have zero impact on the show's storylines and never get brought up in post crossover episodes. They can just reduce the order for all the DC shows, and just air and release the crossover as a special. So the flow of all the show's seasons doesn't just stop because of the crossover.

I also hate how it is always episode 8, and a week before the mid-season break. I really don't like that, it just interrupts the flow of the season. I personally would like if it was after winter break or just aired as a special.

Supergirl fans must really be annoyed with the crossovers. I mean if you just watch SG, you will be confused. And Season 3 has already been slow because one episode already featured a flashback to alex and kara as teens with the entire cast absent, then this crossover would be just as confusing. It slowed the pace for S3 down, especially when Lena who is a regular has sat out of 3 episodes in a row. 

[statsgirl]

11 hours ago, leopardprint said:

I wonder if they will scale back next year's crossover because I don't know if barely scraping 1.0 is worth the trouble and cost.

I wonder if the numbers for LoT will go up as a result of this year's crossovers.  I've seen a number of posters write that they're going to try LoT again so that may make it worthwhile.

3 hours ago, nightwing877 said:

Supergirl fans must really be annoyed with the crossovers. I mean if you just watch SG, you will be confused. And Season 3 has already been slow because one episode already featured a flashback to alex and kara as teens with the entire cast absent, then this crossover would be just as confusing. It slowed the pace for S3 down, especially when Lena who is a regular has sat out of 3 episodes in a row. 

Yes, I think if any group feels short-changed it's those who watch only Supergirl.  (What it's demonstrated to me is that Supergirl is the weakest of the four because the characters are like figurines moved by the plotting.)

[Starfish35]

From RJK at Spotted Ratings - 

Unrounded preliminary ratings for last night: 

Quote

The Flash ................................ 0.916 ... (0.924 ... 0.908)
Legends of Tomorrow ............. 0.885 ... (0.885 ... 0.884)

And unrounded finals for last week:

Quote

Here were the unrounded FINALS for the CW shows for last week (Nov. 20-26):

.......................................... L+SD ......... L+3 ...
The Flash ......................... 0.813 ......... 1.40 ...
Supergirl ........................... 0.530 ......... 0.82 ...
Legends of Tomorrow ...... 0.483 ......... 0.78 ...
iHeart Festival-Wed. ......... 0.366 ......... 0.38 ...
Supernatural ..................... 0.341
Arrow ................................ 0.338
Valor ................................. 0.216 ......... 0.27 ...
iHeart Festival-Fri. ............ 0.211

[kismet]

On 11/28/2017 at 7:40 PM, BkWurm1 said:

Start of the season is impossible since they all have finale's to pick up from usually and that's the same problem with after the midseason finale.  Too many balls in the air. And same for as the season progresses.  It just gets too complicated both story wise and behind the scenes logistically. 

I wonder if the better time to do it would be for like for the fourth episode,  so not right away but not too close to any finale's.  Then though you have complications of just not enough time to get it done which is probably what bumps it to the 8th episode of the season, lol.  

I was thinking that it could be more of a special event to usher the spring season in. They could actually build the "cliffhangers" around the crossover. Tease a reason to watch the crossover. I have not found the majority of the Flarrowverse cliffhangers to be all that compelling, so I'd rather they just tidy up the fall season with a legit fall finale. The only amazing one that I wouldn't change a thing was when they killed Oliver. And it wasn't because I thought he was dead forever, but it really blew my mind that they would actually let him die off for a bit. It made me actually think about how they were going to do the Spring season. The rest of the cliffhangers have been pretty tame or lame.

I do agree that earlier in the season could be a possibility. Season long villains rarely have enough steam for a whole season, it might make sense to just have Villains of the Week - Crossover - then dig into the Season's Main Plot.

It honestly makes no sense in just about any spot you put it in because it's an inorganic dense piece of plot randomly thrown into all the series. It's like a pit in a piece of fruit. It's just the worst timing between the fall finales finally heating up and the Holidays. It's never going to be a ratings juggernaut.

[Simba122504]

Arrow is definitely getting a seventh season. SA's contract is 7 seasons and the CW is not letting it go. No matter high or low the ratings go. S7 is happening.  But I do believe that should be the final season. I've always believed 5/6 seasons is perfect for any show. I hope BL does well and it can take Arrow's place Fall 2019. 10 seasons will be a nightmare and so will the ratings.

Edited December 5, 2017 by Simba122504

[strikera0]

Live+7 ratings for episode 6x06 have dropped to 2.203 million total viewers and what's more, Arrow has failed to reach the top 25 in A18-49 percentage gains for the first time this season. Supergirl, whose November 13 episode pulled a 0,5 in A18-49, on the other hand made it. Therefore, it stands to reason that Arrow's demo rating has reached a new series low of 0,8 for the time being. 

[Starfish35]

Unrounded finals for crossover week from RJK at Spotted Ratings:

Quote

Here's what I have for last week's CW (Nov. 27-29):

Supergirl ...................... 0.877 ........ 1.425 ...
Arrow special ............... 0.852 ........ 1.515 ...

The Flash ..................... 0.963 ........ 1.531 ...
Legends of Tomorrow .. 0.914 ........ 1.470 ...

Riverdale ...................... 0.488 ........ 0.915 ...
Dynasty ........................ 0.169 ........ 0.273 ...

And SPN numbers for the same week:

Quote

Supernatural (Nov. 30) ......... 0.552 ........ 0.88

Edited December 13, 2017 by Starfish35
Adding SPN numbers for the week

[statsgirl]

It's interesting how much much lower Riverdale is than the Arrowverse shows despite all the promotion for it.  But even with that, the CW really owes Greg Berlanti.

As for Dynasty .... ouch.

[Mellowyellow]

I thought they threw all this money at Riverdale and it got a 0.8 at some stage? Did I make that up or did it drop?

[tv echo]

All my friends who watch Arrow also used to watch Psych. So now I'm wondering if Psych: The Movie will affect Arrow's live ratings tonight.

ETA: Riverdale premiered its second season with a 0.8 demo, but has since dropped to 0.5...
https://tvseriesfinale.com/tv-show/riverdale-season-two-ratings/

Edited December 7, 2017 by tv echo

[Sakura12]

Psych: The Movie is on tonight! I can't believe I forgot about the premiere date even though I've been watching all the interviews with them. 

With Riverdale I think all the talk about over the summer got people to tune in to see what that was about, then realized it's the replacement for Pretty Little Liars. Which is why it probably does well on social media, that's what kept PLL relevant even though that show was a complete mess. I watched the first half of season 1 of Riverdale and realized I'm over teen soaps. 

[quarks]

3 hours ago, tv echo said:

All my friends who watch Arrow also used to watch Psych. So now I'm wondering if Psych: The Movie will affect Arrow's live ratings tonight.

 

Given Arrow's season/numbers so far, I think it's probably safe to say that the Falcons/Saints game will have more of an impact.

Though that said, and at the major risk of predicting future ratings, the CW's history in that 9 PM EST timeslot does not suggest that Arrow's live numbers will improve much once the NFL season is over. 

[strikera0]

Live+7 ratings for episode 6x07: 0,8 in A18-49 and 2.165 million total viewers. 

[Soulfire]

Edited December 8, 2017 by Soulfire

[lemotomato]

Looks like everything was down/stayed down last night:

Edited December 8, 2017 by lemotomato

[Guest]

So same viewers as usual but the demo dropped a bit. Steady as she goes.

[Trisha]

Ouch at that 0.4 (one that can't be blamed on Thanksgiving). They got a slight bump in total viewership compared to the ep before the crossover, though.  I guess that's something...

[Simba122504]

I hope TPTB don't kill off Felicity to please certain fanbase.  I don't believe any character should die to please anyone. They marry O/F then kill her off by the end of the season or the final season. That's not going to help ratings. The series has been on for 6 seasons. Any viewers who leave a series usually does not return no matter what. 

[lemotomato]

18 minutes ago, Simba122504 said:

I hope TPTB don't kill off Felicity to please certain fanbase.  I don't believe any character should die to please anyone. They marry O/F then kill her off by the end of the season or the final season. That's not going to help ratings. The series has been on for 6 seasons. Any viewers who leave a series usually does not return no matter what. 

If the writers cared about what Felicity haters wanted, she would've been killed off 3 seasons ago and Oliver would be marrying Laurel.

Anyway, Arrow made it on to Nielsen's top 5 social ratings for Thursday: 

https://t.co/eGSYdA1Br0

[Starfish35]

Unrounded preliminary numbers from RJK at Spotted Ratings:

Quote

Supernatural ............................. 0.540 ... (0.553 ... 0.526)
Arrow ........................................ 0.439 ... (0.455 ... 0.422)

[quarks]

Current Amazon sales rankings for the Xmas season (note; Amazon generally adjusts these every hour. This is just to give a general sense.)

All rankings are under Movies and TV

Arrow season 5: 934 

Arrow season 4: 1,199 

Arrow season 3: 2,716

Arrow season 2: 2,201

Arrow season 1: 2,591 

Arrow seasons 1-5 DVD bundle: 114,087

[If you were ever wondering what effect price point has on sales, well - the DVD bundle is over $100; seasons 5 is over $20; season 4 is over $15; and seasons 1 and 2 are about $10.]

Flash season 3: 1,434

Flash season 2: 3,328

Flash season 1: 3,285

[Flash season 3 is $23.20, 2 is $14.96  and 1 is $12.96, all for the DVDs; the Blu-rays are a couple dollars more]

Supergirl season 2: 5,572

Supergirl season 1: 5,774

[Season 2 is $23.81, season 1 is $12.97;  Blu-rays are a few dollars more.]

Legends of Tomorrow season 2: 3,910

Legends of Tomorrow season 1: 3,851

[Season 2 is $18.80, season 1 is $12.96.  The season 2 Blu-Ray is slightly more; the season 1 Blu-Ray is the same price.]

 

In real terms, this means Arrow is outselling the other three Arrowverse shows - probably by at least 1000 DVD/Blu-ray units per week for season 5 of Arrow alone versus season 3 of Flash.

Edited December 9, 2017 by quarks

[statsgirl]

Since The Flash and at times Supergirl and LoT have more viewersoverall,  does this imply that Arrow viewers are more loyal than viewers of other shows since they want to own copies of the episodes?

[quarks]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

Since The Flash and at times Supergirl and LoT have more viewersoverall,  does this imply that Arrow viewers are more loyal than viewers of other shows since they want to own copies of the episodes?

Who knows? It could also be that viewers want to be able to frequently rewatch Arrow's workout and salmon ladder routines for, er, workout tips. Or it could be thanks to Arrow's serialized format, which doesn't just have the season long arcs of the other three shows, but subplots typically lasting from three to five episodes, which tend to be easier to follow via marathoning. I've noticed that Flash has been shifting to that three to four episode subplot format, perhaps to jump on this trend. And for me, at least, Arrow's flaws also tend to be a little less noticeable when marathoning - which may or may not be true for the other three shows.

It could also be the audience age - Flash and Supergirl tend to be aimed at slightly younger audiences, who may not have the same disposable income to spend on DVD/Blu-Ray sets and season passes that the slightly older Arrow audience has. 

Whatever the reason, Arrow is outselling the other three shows on Amazon (and apparently iTunes and Google Play), which presumably is one reason why one, the CW chose to put Arrow into one of its toughest time spots of the week, and two, the CW is choosing to play around with the schedules for Supergirl and Legends of Tomorrow instead of Arrow.  

[strikera0]

I've been going through the DVD and Blu-Ray sales charts at The-Numbers.com and I think it's true when people say that the rise of Netflix is hurting DVD sales of television series. The only shows left with good DVD/Blu-Ray sales are The Big Bang Theory, The Walking Dead, Game of Thrones, Sherlock, Outlander and surprisingly, Longmire. As for the Flarrowverse shows, the only one that appears on any of the charts this year is Supergirl: Season 2 with 15,466 total units sold during opening week. For comparison's sake, season 1 of Supergirl still sold 41,706 total units it's first week of release. Season 3 of the Flash was made available the same week as Supernatural, but only Supernatural made the charts at #19 with 24,549 total units sold. The second season of The Flash still sold 44,766 units. Unfortunately, the website hasn't updated the weekly DVD and Blu-Ray charts since mid-September, but Arrow: Season 5 wasn't listed amongst the top 20 in DVD sales over at Variety.com for it's first or second week. Arrow: Season 4 still sold 27,480 units. LOT: Season 1 only sold 18,062 units during opening week. It's failure to chart should therefore surprise nobody. 

Edited December 9, 2017 by strikera0