S07.E12: Red Rose

[Lonesome Rhodes]

My biggest criticism of Sutter is that he wrote so many checks that were never cashed.  He set up situations impossible to get out of.  I am not at all pleased that there are vibes out there that Jax does not meet Mr. Mayhem.  Somehow, Jax is just gonna ride off to continue, as Sutter keeps saying, "his journey."  

 

In the preview, we saw Jax tell Patterson that Gemma killed Tara.  Well whaddya know?!  Patterson was there all season and did bupkis while the war raged on.  Yeah, right.  Anyway...assuming Jax is spared, it is truly impossible that he would escape from Patterson and the judicial system.  Jax was given more chances than she wanted to give as it was.  Look what he did with them!  She knows full well he is directly involved in the dozens of murders we've seen.  It would be incredibly easy, especially with Jax being without a patch, to gather evidence that would even convict an OJ!   

 

Instead, what we are likely to get, if I know KS, is that the meeting will be cordial and even friendly.  She'll just let him walk right out the door without so much as having him sit with detectives for interviews about allllllll the other crap that has gone down.  Jax would never walk out any door a free man once those interviews ended.  He could never reconcile his story sufficiently.  He isn't that smart!

 

OK, let's assume by some miracle, he walks free.  I can believe the Irish would let him go.  What is impossible for me to accept is that the vestige of the Pope/Marks outfit, nor the Chinese syndicate would.  They would hunt him down like the dog he is.  No matter what it took.  Again....Jax would have zero protection from any chapter or MC.  

 

These are checks KS has written.   He better friggin honor them.

[Milaxx]

I think Gemma's death was VERY satisfactory. I am not sure what everyone was wanting. If they wanted anything else they were never going to get it it. I loved the line "this is who we are:" 

 

For me it was how she died. She died once again manipulating Jax to do her dirty work. Since some have made Breaking Bad/Walter White comparisons, I'll put it this way. At the end of BB bad Walter White saves Jesse. Walter has manipulated and played Jesse through out the run of the series. Walt frees Jesse & Jesse gets one of the guns from his captors and aims it at Walt. Jesse tells Walt he has to ask for it. Walt knowing he's dying does but Jesse refuses to kill him and takes off. Sadly Jax hasn't had as much of an awakening as Jesse so when Gemma tells him to go ahead & shoot because, "this is who we are" Jax does it. He hasn't yet come to the realization that leaving Gemma alone to stew in her own misery would have been a far worse punishment. Gemma deserved to die, she just didn't deserve to have Jax be the one to do it.

[Artsda]

I don't think she was manipulating Jax, she was giving Jax the go ahead to essentially murder his mother and give him peace with what he had to do because of who they are. She wasn't trying to hurt Jax, she was trying to encourage him be the head of the club that she's always encouraged him to be.

[catrox14]

I don't think she was manipulating Jax, she was giving Jax the go ahead to essentially murder his mother and give him peace with what he had to do because of who they are. She wasn't trying to hurt Jax, she was trying to encourage him be the head of the club that she's always encouraged him to be.

This a magnanimous reading of Gemma that I totally disagree with. Maybe in Gemma s warped mind was she helping her son but IMO it was her last act of controlling her son which is all she ever wanted. Ultimately the worst helicopter mom EVER.

[Ohwell]

I don't think she was manipulating Jax, she was giving Jax the go ahead to essentially murder his mother and give him peace with what he had to do because of who they are.

How on earth could any mother think she'd be giving peace to her son if he killed her?  If anything, Gemma should have known that this would destroy Jax, not give him "peace."

[Fliz]

When Jax shot Gemma, she fell face down. At the very end of the episode, we see her bloody (but serene) face. I know with all the unbelievable things that happen on this show, this is a petty thing to be bugged about, but I still am.

[catrox14]

How on earth could any mother think she'd be giving peace to her son if he killed her?  If anything, Gemma should have known that this would destroy Jax, not give him "peace."

A healthy mother would see that, but Gemma was 9000 kinds of messed up. She always convinced herself that what she was doing was always in Jax's best interest but her narcissism always ended up with everything being about her even to the very end. She knew she was going to die but she was too much of a coward to take her own life. She fucked over Jax one last time because she was still thinking about herself and got him to do her dirty work one last time. Jax Wil never be free of his mother's control now even when dies she'll be his final thought more than his own boys or the club

I'll bet dollars to donuts the final scene will be jax hallucination of Gemma hugging him and telling him she loves him. Ugh.

[Artsda]

How on earth could any mother think she'd be giving peace to her son if he killed her?  If anything, Gemma should have known that this would destroy Jax, not give him "peace."

Because  he knew she knew she had to die. She knew she had to die. She gave him permission to do it.

 

Their whole world is different, Clay raised Jax too. Didn't stop Jax from killing him after Clay betrayed them.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Artsda

[Ohwell]

Because  he knew she knew she had to die. She knew she had to die. She gave him permission to do it.

Yes, but that's not my point.  They both knew she had to die but it didn't have to be by his hands.  She could have saved him the pain and put a bullet to her head as soon as she got to the house, but she was just too much of a coward to kill her own damn self.

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[henripootel]

I really don't believe Gemma would allow Jax to kill her.

Nor I that Jax would allow himself to be killed, for any reason, least of all 'the good of the club'.  Yet another thing Sutter wants to be so but that he has not earned.  For all of Jax's 'love' for the club and his brothers, he has for years used the club and its members for his personal business, less like a leader of equals and far more like a king sacrificing his vassals.  He may brood over it later but Jax really does seem to equate service to him as 'the good of the club'.  I know Sutter tells us otherwise but Jax's actions speak louder.

Their whole world is different, Clay raised Jax too. Didn't stop Jax from killing him after Clay betrayed them.

But it also didn't stop Clay from running for the border - that made sense.  And Gemma is far more egocentric than Clay was, but she allows herself to be killed ... why?  For Jax's good?  Seems more like one final (and devastating) 'Fuck You' to her 'beautiful baby boy', I mean seriously, killing your own mother?  And if she was gonna deliver that message, I kinda feel like she'd run and keep on running.  No way Gemma just stands there and gets shot but Sutter wants us to believe she would for ... reasons.

 

Also not a fan of the 'Gemma is crazy' explanation.  From a dramatic viewpoint, saying 'the character is crazy so don't try to make sense of what they do' usually means 'I couldn't be bothered to figure out why they'd act this way so you shouldn't either'.  Good people may differ with this interpretation, but I think it's lazy writing and Sutter showing the finger to his characters, and us.  Course if he cared about that, he'd have spent more time with the logic of his characters and less with ass-rape and fanning down extras with machine gun fire.

[RedHackle]

Yes, but that's not my point.  They both knew she had to die but it didn't have to be by his hands.  She could have saved him the pain and put a bullet to her head as soon as she got to the house, but she was just too much of a coward to kill her own damn self.

 

I thought about that too, but here's what I think; several seasons ago, I think talking about Clay, Gemma said "he has to die at the hands of a Son."  I think it's possible that in her twisted little brain, the only way for her to die was specifically at Jax's hands as 'revenge' for Tara, as if that would bring any kind of peace or closure.  I mentioned up-thread a bit that I thought Jax reached the point of no return when he shot Wendy up with dope to keep her out of his life.  That was for me the most despicable thing I'd seen him do up to that point and I felt then he can never be redeemed and has to die. I think every single character, at this point, has reached that with the highly debatable exceptions of Nero and Wendy.  They've both done some heinous shit too, but compared to the others, their crimes are more or less forgivable (for fictional characters, I mean; I have much different standards for them than I do for actual people, believe me.)

 

I also thought they did a great job setting Nero up as a very likable father-figure; remember that first ride he gave to Jax that turned into a chase?  That was fun, and I thought very well-written and acted. 

 

Anyway, will be interesting to see how successful Sutter is at cleaning up some of the messes he's made.  For all my bitching, there are still a few things I like about the show and I'm sorry it was so weakened this season.

 

[Artsda]

Yes, but that's not my point.  They both knew she had to die but it didn't have to be by his hands.  She could have saved him the pain and put a bullet to her head as soon as she got to the house, but she was just too much of a coward to kill her own damn self.





 

Killing herself is another thing that doesn't work in their world, its a sign of weakness. Like when Juice tried to do it and Chibs reaction, that they had to lie and keep the cowardly act hidden.  They had to keep Gemma true to her character and committing suicide wouldn't be true to her. At least Jax got to end this reign of terror he was on and started himself with Gemma's lie in the end with Gemma's death.

[Ohwell]

I think it's possible that in her twisted little brain, the only way for her to die was specifically at Jax's hands as 'revenge' for Tara, as if that would bring any kind of peace or closure.

Yeah, now that you mention the "twisted little brain" angle, that might make sense.  I still wish she'd killed herself though, because I also think that in her sick, twisted little brain she might have viewed herself as some kind of martyr for letting her son kill her.  Ugh.  Well, at least she's gone to Hell where she belongs.  I hope Unser is following her around, professing his love, with her trying to get away from him, for all eternity.

[FLgirl]

That's what I thought it was, too. But I wanted to see if anyone else had other ideas!

I was thinking, if they patch in the Grim Bastards (even though they are in Lodi - I don't know if that's very close to Stockton), would that help the Niners?

[FLgirl]

I was wondering if the clause might have something to do with Thomas and Abel and their future involvement with the club.  As in maybe there is some kind of automatic in for children of members and maybe,, just maybe, he has come to realize all the destruction being in the club has brought and is finally honoring Tara's wish that they not be part of "the club".  I know we have never seen anything regarding this, just my alternate theory.

Edited December 5, 2014 by FLgirl

[SzmuttyPratfall]

I didn't have a problem with the garden being so maintained, because it wasn't. Oregon is an amazing climate for rosebushes, to the point where Portland is "The City of Roses". The garden did not look maintained at all, it looked as though the rosebushes were out of control, had gotten to big, were choking and suffocating everything else... like Gemma.

 

I had more problem with there still being power.

[Gudzilla]

 

Yet another thing Sutter wants to be so but that he has not earned.

This my problem with Gemma's death scene.

 

If not for Abel and Juice she would still be covering her own lies and giving half assed apologies to the people whose deaths she caused. 

 

Having nice conversations with a random waitress and truck driver do not make a redemption, and she never tried to redeem herself..

 

Starting her conversation with Jax by saying "I loved Tara" was ........... I ain't got the words.*

 

The UTTER** disregard for Unsers death.

 

Those are some of my reasons why a peaceful serene acceptance of death were not earned.

 

* To quote Turkey Creek Jack in Tombstone.

 

** See what I did there Deadwood fans ;)

[Milaxx]

I don't think she was manipulating Jax, she was giving Jax the go ahead to essentially murder his mother and give him peace with what he had to do because of who they are. She wasn't trying to hurt Jax, she was trying to encourage him be the head of the club that she's always encouraged him to be.

Except for dramatic license Gemma didn't have to die. She had lost everything and wanted to die. Jax is already in pain and conflicted  due to the knowledge that his own mother killed his wife and sat by and watched while he wrecked havoc because of her lies. A loving mother would have realized that the last thing he need was the guilt of killing his own mother on top of the guilt/pain/conflict he was already feeling. You could see that inner turmoil in the way he hesitated. Gemma encouraged him to kill her to end her own pain with no thought to how much added pain it would mean for him. 

[TigerLynx]

I think I would rather have seen Jax get the papers in place for Wendy to get custody of the boys.  I know some people would like Abel and Thomas to go to a nice family far away from Samcro, and for baby Thomas that might be possible.  However, getting someone to adopt five year old already troubled Abel would be more difficult, and there is no guarantee the boys would be adopted together.

 

Then Jax meets Mr. Mayhem.  Gemma thinks she has a chance to get the boys, and finds out not only does Wendy have custody, but Jax left explicit instructions that Gemma was never to be allowed around his sons.  Gemma believes she can get around that, however, Happy shows up and kills her on orders Jax gave before he died.

[Guest Accused Dingo]

For me it was how she died. She died once again manipulating Jax to do her dirty work

 

 

But I guess this is where we differ.  I didn't see any manipulation in the scene at all.  I saw two people laying it all on the table.  This is what is happening.  They asked each other questions.  Jax even asked her if she still had his father's manuscript.  She said yes and told him where it was.  She asked him to trust Nero.  They talked to each other like real people.  It was almost like a contract negotiation or like signing a will.  And in some ways it was.   Like with Juice she asked one thing.  With Juice it was "Let me finish my pie first."  With Gemma it was wanting to go outside to the flowers.  A last request which in both cases were granted.  Gemma knew Jax had to kill her.  She knew the lives they were both living.  If she wanted to this to go any other way she had her chance when Unser told Jax he had called the cops.  I do however agree that this wasn't about giving Jax peace.  This wasn't about Justice in any sense of the word the audience is a used to or thinking of.  Jax killing Gemma is simply like she said....who they are.  I honestly don't think the scene could have happened any other way.  

 

Comparing the scene to Walt and Jessie is a mistake because the situation is different.  Walt was dying anyway.  Gemma isn't.  The moment Jax returns to Charming everyone will ask him if he found Gemma and they will all expect him to have killed her.  If he doesn't then he is dead.  Again this is who he is.  This is the life he is living.  After all the death he has caused to not kill Gemma would just cause more death....most likely the clubs.   Most likely his sons.   To have Gemma go off on him during the scene makes so sense at all because that is not who either of them are.  I don't think there is a single scene where they have had a vitriol fight.  She has never gone off on Jax in any meaningful way.  That would have been out of character for her and for him.  The best way to write the scene is the I love you but this is how it has to be........

 

Again this is all in my opinion.

[Lonesome Rhodes]

 

Comparing the scene to Walt and Jessie is a mistake because the situation is different.

The parallel, to me, is that Jax is a dead man walking.  He knew he was dying every bit as much as Walt and Unser, in my opinion.  

 

I need some help from y'all figuring out why Wendy would be given legal custody of either boy, let alone both of them.   She's a recent addict who left treatment against medical advice.  Her whole life now revolves around SAMCRO.  She has no visible means of support outside of the MC.  On what basis would a court grant her petition?  Nero would never be approved as a Guardian, either.

 

Of course, by now, in the real world all property/assets belonging to SAMCRO and its members would have long ago been confiscated by the state.  

 

Anyway, how can Wendy actually get custody?  Thanks in advance.  

Edited December 6, 2014 by Lonesome Rhodes

[Puddy]

In the World of Sutter, anything is possible. 

[Kel Varnsen]

How did Unser call off the APB? I guess he could say the punch was an accident but Jax still ran from the cops and carjacked that guys car, How does he make those go away?

[Dodginblue]

Wendy getting custody?  Why not?  It's not like there are a lot of great option for these kids.  There doesn't seem to be any other family members to contest anything, not unless Tara's got parents or something who could show up and try and get Thomas.  And she is Abel's biological mother and the state usually does try to keep children with a birth parent if at all possible. It's not like the state's really all that eager to put kids into foster care.  Which probably wouldn't be that big of an improvement over whatever Wendy and Nero have to offer.   

[henripootel]

With Juice it was "Let me finish my pie first."  With Gemma it was wanting to go outside to the flowers.  A last request which in both cases were granted.  Gemma knew Jax had to kill her.

I see huge differences between those deaths.  Juice was locked up and had few options, one way or the other he was super dead.  Frankly, I'd have gone out swinging like Opie, but that's me and I'm not that fond of pie. 

 

Gemma had tons of options.  If she knew about Jury, she might have guessed that Jax might not be long for this earth and if so, her grandsons needed her more than fucking ever.  Disappear for a bit and wait to see what happens to Jax (nothing Gemma can do about that except greave), then find and take care of her boys.  The one and only reason I can think of why Gemma would do something as ludicrous as letting herself be killed is because this was Kurt Sutter's gift to his wife, her Emmy reel. Sorry - Gemma may be all kinds of crazy, murderous, and broken, but I can't see her leaving her grandkid's lives up to chance, least of all out of guilt (which I think she's spent years building up a tolerance to) or to give Jax 'closure'.

 

What should have happened was that Jax caught up to his mom and grudgingly admitting that his kids will need her once he's met Mr. Mayhem.  They could have had a nice cry about that before Jax tells her 'one more thing' - that he has an agreement with Chibs, that if she ever shows her face anywhere near anything SAMCRO again, she'll be shot her on the spot.  The Teller / SOA story ends right here, right now in this rose garden.  He pats Unser on the shoulder and thanks him for the concern he's shown over the years for his family, and Jax and Gemma never see each other again.  Somehow this feels to me what Season 1 Sutter might have done, but since that guy is gone the only solution involves gunfire.

Edited December 6, 2014 by henripootel

[La Tortuga]

How did Unser call off the APB? I guess he could say the punch was an accident but Jax still ran from the cops and carjacked that guys car, How does he make those go away?

 

Unser pressed the charges, all he has to do is drop them. It's not like a domestic violence case, where the state is obligated to pursue charges regardless of whether the victim wishes to press charges at all.

 

 

 

But I guess this is where we differ.  I didn't see any manipulation in the scene at all.  I saw two people laying it all on the table.  This is what is happening.  They asked each other questions.  Jax even asked her if she still had his father's manuscript.  She said yes and told him where it was.  She asked him to trust Nero.  They talked to each other like real people.  It was almost like a contract negotiation or like signing a will.  And in some ways it was.   Like with Juice she asked one thing.  With Juice it was "Let me finish my pie first."  With Gemma it was wanting to go outside to the flowers.  A last request which in both cases were granted.  Gemma knew Jax had to kill her.  She knew the lives they were both living.  If she wanted to this to go any other way she had her chance when Unser told Jax he had called the cops.  I do however agree that this wasn't about giving Jax peace.  This wasn't about Justice in any sense of the word the audience is a used to or thinking of.  Jax killing Gemma is simply like she said....who they are.  I honestly don't think the scene could have happened any other way.  

 

I'm inclined to agree that Gemma wasn't manipulating Jax out of a sense of cowardice. Their world has strange cultural values: self-preservation and group preservation are paramount, while dealing out death is common, something you are supposed to do to people who are beneath you or have wronged you or are obstacles in your way. They've developed rigid social norms around this. Revenge-killing is a moral obligation. Suicide is the chicken-shit way to die. Facing your death at another's hand is an act of courage, but it's a last resort, something you only do if you've exhausted all your other options to save your own life or the lives of your comrades. This is why Gemma didn't find it at all cowardly to run away from Charming once she realized Jax knew what she'd done, and nobody accused her of cowardice.

 

The problem, then, is that the fact that Jax had to be coaxed into killing Gemma by Gemma illustrates that he doesn't entirely buy into the values and norms of his world. Which is not surprising--there are a lot of other norms he doesn't fully accept, which is why he agreed to turn himself in rather than kill Tara for trying to cut a deal, and why he's tried to integrate relationships between racially divided gangs. But not abiding by the revenge-killing norm on his wife's behalf simply cannot stand. The fact that it was his mother is terrible, and as normal people the rest of us think he shouldn't have to deal with that kind of mindfuck. But in his world, it's his responsibility to do it, and for Gemma to take her own life would be to rob Jax of his manhood. So by the logic of their cherished values, when Gemma stood there yammering, coddling her grown son into doing his duty, it didn't make Gemma look selfish, it made Jax look like a little boy who had to have his hand held.

[Captanne]

I think my favorite line of the episode was Jax's at the table when the Presidents were discussing the Mayhem vote.  Once Jax was honest and admitted his lie (wow, that was cool), he said, "It's been an honour to wear this "President" [patch].  I wish I could have lived up to it."

 

I have liked this season overall and really enjoyed the entire series.  The defining role of Jax this last season has been "Avenger" -- and he became a one-man threshing machine mowing down men and women in front of him like a field of wheat at harvest.

 

Now he knows it's all be because of a lie told by his mother -- who is the murderess of his wife and what started the whole combine rolling.

 

He was a bad President when it came to the big thing -- family and revenge.  He let that get in the way of being President.  He created havoc based on one lie from a family member.  (He let the family trauma bleed into his duty to the Club.)

 

I think, for that alone, Gemma had to die.  She certainly knew that.  Whether viewers agree or not, it's what the character most concerned presented us with.

 

And it had to be Jax doing it.

 

That scene I quoted, though, tells me that Jax knows he has to die, too.  And he owns that.  

 

I find that super cool.

[Guest Accused Dingo]

The problem, then, is that the fact that Jax had to be coaxed into killing Gemma by Gemma illustrates that he doesn't entirely buy into the values and norms of his world.

 

 

It is still his mother.  Again this was brought up during the previous episode when Jax spoke to Nero.  Despite everything.  Despite everything Jax knew Gemma did.  All the hurt all the lies.  Jax still loved his mother.  This is where things get complicated for the television watcher.  Many people hate Gemma and want Jax to as well but he is a boy who still loves his mother.  I just couldn't see the scene with Jax killing Gemma as easy as he killed Unser.  It wouldn't have felt right.  

 

Gemma had tons of options.

 

 

So did Juice when he was on the run.  But not really.  Where would she really go?  SAMCRO was all she had.  It was all she knew.  She loved three men in her life.  She married Jax's father young, then Clay and then was with Nero.   The Club was all she knew.  What was she to do?   Yes as the audience we are saying she had options but we are not Gemma and we are not Juice.  Neither of them ever really had anything else and neither of them really had anywhere else to go.   So we can say they had options from the safety of our homes but really they didn't.  

Edited December 6, 2014 by Accused Dingo

[Captanne]

Accused Dingo I think they were all trapped in "the life" except for Tara -- she's the one who got out and then chose to return to it.

[Guest Accused Dingo]

Captanne and part of the reason Tara came back was out of fear.  That ATF guy she was dating and started to stalk her.  She came back to Charming because she knew Jax was there and would protect her and before she knew what was happening she was wrapped up in his life again.  Old feelings and old alliances.  Tara got trapped extremely quickly back in the life.   Hell she was implicated in a murder by the end of season 1 not to mention all the accessory charges that could have been put against her and this was season 1.  

[Captanne]

I didn't really ever get a feel for how the Clubs interacted and depended on each other until I watched this past episode.  I "got it" when they had the big pow-wow in the room and discussed who was getting what (trying to set Jax's complete destruction of the normal social order back in some place where folks weren't getting massacred every other day.)

 

That was like a "show plot" eureka moment for me.

 

As I mentioned before, I've had a hard time keeping all the various rival Clubs, characters and missions clear.  (Except, Niners were drugs and Irish and SAMCRO were guns.)

 

It's kind of too bad that the first time I see them all in a tableau discussing their "fortes", is in the second to last episode of the entire series -- but, what the Hell, it is what it is.

 

ETA:  The whole idea of the "tableau" of "apostles" the night before Jax will surely "die" might lead one to make a religious Christian allegory but, personally, I wouldn't.  I don't think that's where Sutter was ever headed with this series.  I think it's Shakespearean and that's quite sufficient.  (Although, Shakespeare probably had his Christian allegories, I honestly don't think that's where he's headed with SoA.  Jax has never, never, ever struck me as an innocent martyr and I don't think the character believes that of himself.  Nope.  But, based on the idea of the "Last Supper" and Judas being "Juice" and dying, essentially, by a pre-ordained suicide...blah blah blah.  I'm just not convinced.  Gemma ain't no "Mary" no matter how far you stretch.)

Edited December 7, 2014 by Captanne

[Disraeli Ears]

Wendy getting custody?  Why not?  It's not like there are a lot of great option for these kids.  There doesn't seem to be any other family members to contest anything, not unless Tara's got parents or something who could show up and try and get Thomas.  And she is Abel's biological mother and the state usually does try to keep children with a birth parent if at all possible. It's not like the state's really all that eager to put kids into foster care.  Which probably wouldn't be that big of an improvement over whatever Wendy and Nero have to offer.   

 

As far as I remember, Tara's mother has been dead for a while and she inherited her father's house and car when he died. So I don't believe Tara has any family that we know of - I don't ever remember her mentioning siblings or anything.

 

I guess there is always Jax's Irish half-sister Trinity! (But her family's involved with the IRA!)

Edited December 6, 2014 by Disraeli Ears

[Milaxx]

Anyway, how can Wendy actually get custody?  Thanks in advance.

 

If Jax signs legal papers assigning Wendy as custodian yes. Checking back into rehab for a tuneup after a one time relapse wouldn't prevent that. In fact unless someone contested her custody it would be a non issue.

[jrlr]

I thought Tara signed custody over to Wendy if anything happened to her and somehow tricked Jax into signing the papers.

[Kel Varnsen]

Unser pressed the charges, all he has to do is drop them. It's not like a domestic violence case, where the state is obligated to pursue charges regardless of whether the victim wishes to press charges at all.

 

Unser pressed charges for the assault. After the cops found Jax at the deli he ran from cops, car jacked some random persons car, and then led the police on a high speed chase which put a ton of people in danger and ended when a police car flipped over A-team style, which surely would have injured the cop inside. There would have to be a laundry list of charges that the police could bring against Jax for that chase alone (google tells me that carjacking with a gun in California can get you up to 19 years in jail). Unser dropping the assault charge wouldn't make any of them go away. Unless of course the police in Northern California were even more terrible and ineffective  than I already thought they were.

Edited December 7, 2014 by Kel Varnsen

[missy jo]

Couldn't agree more with Lonesome Rhodes and henripootel regarding both Sutter and the character (or lack thereof) of Jax!

[henripootel]

I think my favorite line of the episode was Jax's at the table when the Presidents were discussing the Mayhem vote. Once Jax was honest and admitted his lie (wow, that was cool), he said, "It's been an honour to wear this "President" [patch].  I wish I could have lived up to it."

It was, but like a lot of this episode, it doesn't stand up to scrutiny.  Sutter makes it clear that Jax is pretty asking to be killed, even though (it seemed to me) the other presidents were maybe willing to accept a lesser plea.  Hell, they seemed anxious to avoid having to deal with a president simply murdering another president and were nearly asking Jax to give them some mitigating circumstances they could deal with.  Seemed like the intent was to show that Jax, now that he knows the truth, is finally coming clean and putting the good of the club ahead of his own interests.  This suggests that, at his heart, Jax is an honorable guy who just got swept up in revenge and lost his way.  

 

Here's why that's bullshit.  Despite Jax's cant about being all about The Club, he didn't hesitate to put all his brothers and everything they have in the line of fire for his own revenge.  The killings, the resulting attention from the law, the loss of income and incurring the wrath of other criminal gangs - so obviously a result of Jax's needs and goals that I'm surprised that nobody else called him on this.  

 

For all of Sutter's apparent insistence that Jax is a decent guy in a tough world, I think that boat sailed long ago.  We've seen an orgy of evidence that he's pretty much a world-class serial killer at this point.  The idea that Jax would come down in this late hour with a case of the nobles seems like a major retcon - Jax had no trouble lying to the club in the past so I don't see why he would stop now.  'Living up to' the President's Patch, he said?  The one worn previously by John Teller (who wanted out and was murdered by another member and his old lady) and Clay (who lied to the club regularly and murdered Piney)?  Sounds like you were living up to it just fine, Jackson.

 

I also don't buy for a second that Jax would insist on a Mayhem vote and go willingly to death.  This contravenes pretty much everything we learned about Jax and how much he cares for his boys, which Sutter spent pretty much every episode reminding us of.  Now Jax resigns his children to be (at best) raised by a guy he hardly knows and an ex-junkie, and at worst, California foster care?  All this when he it seems that Jax doesn't have to let this happen - why not tell the other Presidents that Jury pretty much said he was gonna kill Jax because he knew Jax was responsible for his son's death?  That's pretty much the truth anyway, and possibly enough to get Jax just getting drummed out of SAMCRO.  He'd have to ink up his tats but at least his sons could be raised by their father (in another state under another name, given Jax's stupid stupid stupid GTA behavior after punching Unser, and the murders that followed).  

 

But no, Sutter'll ignore all this so that Jax can die 'nobly' and be revered as the guy who integrated the Sons.  Gah, I'm probably gonna have to watch this show again from the beginning to see if I can spot the actual moment when the wheels came off the wagon.  

Edited December 7, 2014 by henripootel

[BetyBee]

Well said, henripootel.  I think Sutter is a terrible writer and his plots are full of holes. Just the way these people flit around the tiny state of California (hah!), accomplishing so much in a 24 hour period, is ridiculous. And this

 

The idea that Jax would come down in this late hour with a case of the nobles seems like a major retcon - Jax had no trouble lying to the club in the past so I don't see why he would stop now.

made me think about the retconning that went into Tara's clearly passionate, most likely by someone close to her, murder, magically became "gangland style" a couple of episodes ago. Gemma's murder looked gangland, not Tara's, but Sutter pretends for the sake of advancing his storyline, all reasoning aside.

[justawatcher]

I believe the wheels came of the wagon when they went to Ireland and wasted a season over there for no reason.

[thewhiteowl]

 I think the wheels came off the wagon when Opie died.

[Captanne]

I'm wondering what you mean by "wheels came off the wagon"?  Is that a metaphysical "the show started to suck" or is that within the show, the characters took drastic changes because of the death of such a beloved character?  Plays do that all the time for dramatic dynamism -- fall in love with a character, kill him off and watch the fallout as it affects those around him and future events unfold.  How else would you have a plot at all?  Without change, you have a play of "A and B coexist.  Nothing happens.  The End."

[TheDancinMonarch]

C'mon guys and gals.  It's a TV show.  It's function is to keep you awake so they can sell you beer and cars.  And by that standard I haven't fallen asleep early once while it has been on and I'll miss every bit of logic and illogic it provides.

[henripootel]

I'm wondering what you mean by "wheels came off the wagon"?

I'm actually starting to wonder myself.  I originally meant 'when it went from good to sucking', but sometimes I wonder if it always sucked.  I remember thinking the first season was pretty good, an interesting take on outlaws who were aging, paying off their mortgages, and taking care of their kids.  And occasionally killing folks when it had to be done, even as a public service (of sorts) with the local sex predators.  Now we have this, where sit-downs are outnumbered by mass slaughters.

 

I'm inclined to agree with thewhiteowl - Opie's murder was the last time I felt a death on this show as a real loss.  It was brutal and awful, I really didn't think they'd actually go there and I honestly wondered how the others would ever recover.  By the time we got to Ireland I was scratching my head, and by the time Clay died, I'd long since decided he was being kept alive by sheer scriptwriting.  

Edited December 7, 2014 by henripootel

[NoWillToResist]

I really wanted Gemma to go to jail and live out the rest of her miserable days alone. But as soon as Jax said that no one can know that Gemma was the real killer of Tara, I knew I was screwed.

 

I don't know how to feel about the fact that Jax is putting him trying to cover his own ass and protect the Sons over getting justice for his wife. If the truth is made public, the Sons will be the laughingstock of California. Their dumbass president let his mommy mislead him into starting a gang war, double crossing allies and murdering other chapter's presidents etc. That dumb fucker set the world on fire...on the say-so of his mommy. So to protect his brothers-in-arms, he doesn't make Gemma pay for her crime in a way which honours his wife. Instead, he gives Gemma club justice. which she did not deserve, IMO. Fucking typical that he had to get the green-light from Gemma before he could pull the trigger. Mama's boy to the end.

 

 

Jax killing Unser had two meanings for me.  First, Jax was removing the person who was preventing from killing Mommy Dearest, of course.  But the way Unser said that this was all he had left, it felt like Jax was putting down an old sick dog who was suffering.

 

I didn't have a problem with Unser dying. He's not some innocent either. If he truly just wanted Gemma to be arrested, he knew where she was; there was nothing stopping him from calling the local cops and having them go and arrest her, rather than try to out-race Jax so that he could be the hero who saved Gemma from death.

 

I've been thinking for a while that Jax has spent a good part of this season making promises about the Irish gun trade that he had no right and no leverage to make. It took a lot of work for him to get the Irish to agree to do business with August Marks, but once that relationship was forged, I didn't get the sense that Jax was still allowed to have input into how they did their business. His promises to the Mayans that he'd be able to wave his hand and make the Irish exit a profitable business relationship and follow Jax's new suggestion didn't make sense. So when he made the proposal to Connor, and Connor basically told him to go fuck himself, I smiled. That's what should have happened, because Jax's way of doing business is stupid.

 

But then suddenly it was revealed that Connor was skimming profits, and one of the Kings found out about it and conveniently decided the best way to handle it was to have Jax kill the guy in exchange for getting in bed with the Mayans. So Jax got what he wanted by the skin of his goddamned teeth. The show has been trying so hard to paint Jax as this intelligent guy with grand plans and strategies, and it turns out the only way they work is when the writers can engineer a crazy coincidence. Is this what they call failing upwards? It's some Deus ex machina crap, that's for sure, and it pisses me right off.

 

Yeah, it amazes me that no one questions how he can make promises on behalf of the Irish when he's cut ties to them. It really pisses me off too.

 

ETA - I think Jax's new limp is meaningful. Perhaps it will cause him to spill JT's newly repaired bike at just the right moment and he'll be able to take himself out?

 

Yeah, the out of the blue "JT committed suicide" comment from Jury, combined with Jax fixing up his dad's bike earlier in this ep, combined with the boys sending Juice on his last mission at JT's crash site, combined with Jax asking about JT's manuscript? We've been beaten over the head about JT even though we've not heard a peep about him in ages. That cannot be coincidence. I don't think Jax will meet Mr Mayhem, regardless of the vote. He'll go out like his dad, IMO

 

Juice's death was somehow noble; that's why I thought it was actually a touching moment when Manson said "You went out good, sweetheart" after stabbing him in the neck.  I know it's an odd moment to get teary-eyed over, but seeing as how Juice has been a miserable fuckup for several seasons now, it was nice to see him make peace with his own death and with his place in the club.  That pie looked cheap as shit, but I've never seen Juice look so content as when he finished it.  What a moment.

 

I'm just glad that he's finally dead. Honestly, this entire season for the poor actor was 'look sad. Look depressed. Get raped a bit. Look sad. Look depressed. Get raped some more. Look sad. Look depressed. Cry a bit. Get raped some more.' Like, holy hell. I have to thank Marilyn Manson though for his awesome delivery of "you do realize that you've just lost the element of surprise" when Juice said the Chinese wanted him to kill Tully. I was not expecting that laugh.

 

Oh, another point about Unser being so dense.  Juice says to him that Gemma holds the key to Tara's death.   Then Juice clams up. So.....Uncer is totally perplexed by this statement.  Gemma holds the key, but yet, Unser has no suspicion of her?  Please......I agree about the idea that Sutter just gave up...or maybe caved in. I'm not sure how you get that stupid.

 

Don't forget that Unser tells Gemma that Jax wants to talk to her about Tara. Gemma freaks out and suddenly is on the run. Later, Jax tells Unser that he needs to meet with Gemma and it's about Tara's murder and Unser, even after all of that PLUS Juice's comments, STILL can't put the dots together??? I was expecting Jax to explode with a "Jesus Christ, how were you ever a cop? You actually need it spelled out for you??"

 

How did Unser call off the APB? I guess he could say the punch was an accident but Jax still ran from the cops and carjacked that guys car, How does he make those go away?

 

Yeah, it's a little ridiculous at this point how much the Sons can get away with. I guess the APB would only be for the assault...not the shit that followed? The local cops should still be looking for him, but not the out of town ones, which I guess is what Jax was concerned with since he was driving out to meet Gemma.

[missy jo]

really though even with all these dealings Jax has to "tie up", and I too have lost track of them all, how long do you think it will be after Jax is gone before the gangs are fighting again?  About a day.  Same story, new people, more killing.

 

I think they'll all get along much better, and be perfectly fine without the pox that is the Teller family!

 

As for the bylaw being changed, I'm leaning toward it being about who gets to kill him or who will succeed him. IMO, he doesn't give a crap about racial equality or even his biological sons, although the writers might want it to ultimately be about Thomas and Abel.

 

I have zero idea what the limp portends. That was totally random. As was the Wendy and Jax sex scene at the end, but I took that as a love letter to the fans and a farewell to Jax's ass, LOL.

 

As far as Sutter's fascination with rape and prison rape, I read an old interview with him that I swear mentioned a dream he had about raping children or something. He's a sick puppy.

 

ETA: The question that the show leaves unanswered for me is ... how the hell do these guys pay their electric bills?! They all seem poor as shit, and their schemes never pay off.

Edited December 7, 2014 by missy jo

[BetyBee]

a love letter to the fans and a farewell to Jax's ass, LOL.

 

That's hilarious! 

 

Seriously, I started watching the first few eps of Season 1. So interesting to see how things have changed and how many characters are dead and gone. Juice was a smart one back then re computers, but a bit of a screw-up. And honestly? Chibs is much hotter now. Tig looks better too.  They both seemed a little puffy back then. I was surprised to see how kind Jax was to Wendy. He even took the blame for their marriage falling apart and admitted he didn't want a baby. Clearly, the idea was that he felt differently once Abel was born, but he's never been a great dad. He was also reluctant to murder back in the day and tried to avoid it.

 

There was a scene back then where Gemma burns up a picture of her wedding day. She was very pregnant and Clay was smiling away in the picture, beside the happy couple. It seemed back then that Sutter was flirting with the idea that maybe Clay was her baby daddy. I don't know. I think Unser was more of a bad guy back then too. Oh and she mentioned to Jax that he too had the family heart issue, but was strong.  I didn't remember that at all!  I wonder if that could tie in to the leg weakness Jax had in this episode.

Edited December 8, 2014 by BetyBee

[bfg]

The leg thing will be significant and yeah, I'm guessing tied to the family heart condition. They had Gemma talking about her's earlier in the ep too.

Theo Rossi really wasn't given much of anything to work with as Juice for the last few seasons, it was a nice change of pace to see him take over his fate a little.

Edited December 8, 2014 by bfg

[Kel Varnsen]

ETA: The question that the show leaves unanswered for me is ... how the hell do these guys pay their electric bills?! They all seem poor as shit, and their schemes never pay off.

Electric bills, how do these guys pay for their bikes? From what little I know about motorcycles, Harley's aren't cheap. And like you said none of these guys really have jobs, and there criminal enterprises never really bring in any money (at least they haven't this season, or probably last season).

 

C'mon guys and gals.  It's a TV show.  It's function is to keep you awake so they can sell you beer and cars.  And by that standard I haven't fallen asleep early once while it has been on and I'll miss every bit of logic and illogic it provides.

I think I would be more forgiving of this show if its creator and some media outlets would stop acting like it was the best written/acted show on TV. I mean Kurt Sutter at more than one point has compared this show to The Wire (I think once he said he knew how David Simon felt about being ignored by the emmys). He has also complained that this show does not get the recognition that Mad Men does (and that was back when Mad Men was really good). TV writers on more than a few occasions have called it the Sopranos with motorcycles. But it is not any of those shows. And if Sutter wants it put on the same level as those shows to me it requires more criticism. Plus at least Idris Elba was able to hide his British accent.  

[BetyBee]

I re-watched Red Rose yesterday. On second viewing, I found less fault with it. And I found the 3 major character deaths to be even more chilling. I do think that even though it seemed on first viewing that Jax & Gemma did not care about Unser or his death, I felt less so the 2nd time. Jax tried to get him to leave and Gemma was too wrapped up in her own imminent death to react other than a nod. It would have been nice if she had urged Unser to leave. He might have listened to her, but I think everyone in that room was on a death march.

 

I still think that Jax's leg issue must mean something.

[NoWillToResist]

I would truly like to know if Jax still would have killed Gemma had she been honest about Tara. Have her confess to freaking out about hearing that Tara would rat Jax and the club out, they got into a physical altercation (again) and then BLAM, fork in the head.

 

Had she not lied and sent Jax down to the wrong path to revenge, which led to so many deaths and jeopardizing the Sons' reputation...would he still kill her?