S29.E10: This Is Where We Build Trust

[Hanahope]

Jaclyn plays emotionally - her entire reason for not siding with Josh and Alec and crew was "they were mean to me".

 

But she also pointed out that siding with the boys would make it more difficult to get to the end (i.e. must beat the boys at the challenges), whereas siding with the girls should make it easier for Jon, at least, to win challenges.

 

I think the problem with the school yard picks is that they must draw for captains first, and it ends up being a boy and girl captain.  If the boy goes first, chooses another boy, the girl chooses a boy and the boy-captain then gets another boy, leaving the girl-captain with the choice of a girl or Keith.  That's why the teams send up being boy heavy on one side.

 

Considering that Natalie was mad at Jon for voting out Jeremy, I was surprised she told him to use his idol to save himself.

[KimberStormer]

Reed was really dumb.  He wanted to show everyone that he's brilliant and a mastermind.  He should have told Keith in advance "I'm going to make it look like I'm against you and Wes and that I'm with Jon, but no matter what I say, I am voting with you.  I want Jon to feel comfortable so he doesn't play an idol.  Nothing to worry about."  Instead he's all about trying to act like he's with Jon, without telling Keith about it in advance.  People here are saying Keith was dumb, but from Keith's perspective, what was he supposed to think?  He's supposedly allied with Reed and Alec and they are going to take out Jon.  Then he hears his ally telling everyone that Wes and Keith must have an idol and that maybe they are going to play it?  I don't blame Keith for thinking Reed flipped on him.

 

I don't get the need for the pretense.  He had already told Jon he was with him, and Jon actually believed him.  Why keep going on about Keith's idol?  To make Jon trust him in the next round?  In Reed's game, Jon would have been voted out that night and there would have been no need to keep pretending.  Clearly none of Jon's alliance even suspected that Reed was lying to them.  I don't know why they trusted him so much at all.

 

 

 

The smartest person by far in the game is Natalie.  She is perceptive and strategic.  Missy actually seems to have some handle on the game too.  Baylor is a follower.  Jaclyn plays emotionally - her entire reason for not siding with Josh and Alec and crew was "they were mean to me".

 

 

Reed's entire plan depended on the perception that he was against Keith.  That's the whole plan.  They need to believe that Reed and Alec are with them, Keith or Wes has an idol.  There's no move otherwise!  So Keith didn't understand the plan, which says a lot about his understanding of the game.  Reed is not dumb, he put together a great plan.  Maybe he needed to emphasize more strongly that he would be calling out Keith's idol at TC, but seriously, Keith.

 

Jaclyn wasn't mad that they were "mean" but that they ignored her and didn't treat her as an independent person but just as someone they could take for granted as Jon's +1.  Imagine you're in an alliance with people like that, and by some idol mischief or injury pull-out your partner is out of the game.  Now you've got an alliance entirely made of people who ignore you.  Not good for your game.  Avoiding that is not an emotional decision but a completely logical one.

[peachmangosteen]

Baylor is a follower. Jaclyn plays emotionally - her entire reason for not siding with Josh and Alec and crew was "they were mean to me".

 

I didn't see it that way at all. The others above me have explained why Jaclyn didn't do what she did because 'the boys were mean.' As for Baylor, I actually think she's a pretty cunning manipulator, but I can see why others would think she's mostly just a follower.

 

Wes said in his TV Guide interview that Reed and Alec explained to Wes/Keith that they were going to make everyone believe they were voting for Keith/Wes at TC. Keith just got nervous because, well, he's an idiot. Still doesn't really make Reed look much better, IMO, since he really should've seen it coming because he knows how Keith is. He wanted to be cute when he didn't really need to do it.

Edited December 2, 2014 by peachmangosteen

[truthaboutluv]

But how does it not make Reed look good when it's stated clearly that he explained EXACTLY what he was going to do to Wes and Keith? He didn't throw a curveball at tribal council, he didn't mention something Wes and Keith had no idea he knew about or that they never talked about. He basically stuck exactly to the script and really didn't even say anything more than "Keith and Wes probably have an idol."

 

Which again, how do you convince people to split votes and that it's the smart thing to do unless you make them believe there apparently is an idol that will likely be played. I am no fan of Reed, I mean I like him well enough but frankly I'm not rooting for anyone, but I do not see anything he did wrong. His only "flaw" was being aligned with an idiot and even that wasn't really a mistake on his part and merely the only choice he had. 

Edited December 2, 2014 by truthaboutluv

[choclatechip45]

The problem with Reed is that he is expecting everyone to think the way he does which is not the case. If he doesn't know the way Keith is this point in the game he is just as bad as Jon with perception.

[truthaboutluv]

But the point is he didn't leave it up to assumption. He said "this is what I'm going to do..." and then he proceeded to do exactly what he said he was going to do. So where and how was there room for any confusion? 

[onthebrink03]

Also didn't Wes, in the video on the way to Ponderosa say he told his father not the freak out over anything that was said, not say anything and stick to the plan?  EVERYONE told Keith what the plan was, his son told him to zip it and he still could not help himself.  He is a moron and I say that knowing full well that I am probably insulting morons everywhere sticking him in with that group.  Reed didn't look bad.  He did his part, Keith let everyone down (especially his poor son who got sent home). It's sad that Reed, who knows the game and has shown some real skill will probably go home soon because he inherited an idiot as an alliance mate and there was little chance of breaking into the other in a significant position.  

Edited December 2, 2014 by onthebrink03

[Donny Ketchum]

Also didn't Wes, in the video on the way to Ponderosa say he told his father not the freak out over anything that was said, not say anything and stick to the plan?  EVERYONE told Keith what the plan was, his son told him to zip it and he still could not help himself.  He is a moron and I say that knowing full well that I am probably insulting morons everywhere sticking him in with that group.  Reed didn't look bad.  He did his part, Keith let everyone down (especially his poor son who got sent home).

What's worse is that even Alec, who's an idiot himself, knew what was going down and stuck to their plan masterfully enough to trick Jon.  ALEC!  When Alec does a better job at even basic strategy than you, you know how bad you are at it!

[ProfCrash]

Yeah, Wes had talked to Keith and told him to play it cool. Wes's first reaction when he left the tribal area was to be annoyed, exasperated maybe is a better word, with his father. Keith was suppose to keep his mouth shut and not give any indication that there was a plan.

 

I think they would have been fine if Jeff had not talked to Keith but Keith is just tribal gold. I think Keith lacks a filter and was unable to stop himself even after having been coached to keep his mouth shut.

[choclatechip45]

I think it's interesting though how going through Keith's bag last episode backfired on Reed this episode. If Reed hadn't gone through Keith's bag the other alliance would not have known he had the idol. I think playing a short term game is better for Reed at this moment, but it will be interesting if that backfires on him.

[Lamb18]

One thing I'm wondering: we all heard Natalie say to Jon "Play your idol," but did anyone else (besides Jon)?  She spoke very quietly.  Perhaps no one else knows about Natalie's prompting.

[NutMeg]

I think it's interesting though how going through Keith's bag last episode backfired on Reed this episode. If Reed hadn't gone through Keith's bag the other alliance would not have known he had the idol.

 

Very interesting point of view of seeing this as a domino effect rather than two separate occurences, which is how I have somehow viewed it until now. Thanks for the refocus :-)

[peachmangosteen]

I just don't think Reed's really shown that much skill. I can think of a few things he's done that seem stupid to me like his apparent penchant for causing drama on the original Blue tribe, how badly he was at hiding his disdain for Jeremy, him not doing more to make Jaclyn feel included, his PDAs with Josh. I guess the idol thing was a good move in theory, but as choclatechip45 pointed out, it ended up fucking him over mostly. But maybe I'm too hard on him because I expected he'd be better since he's a big fan. And maybe because he is just so very annoying to me.

[Hanahope]

The one that Rocker found went home with him. In the past, those usually aren't rehidden as it's just considered a casualty of the game.

 

I think it all depends on when the person who has the idol goes home.  Rocker went home with an idol way before the merge.  As such, his idol was 'rehidden'.  Baylor and Natalie went to exile before the merge and thus got the clue to the new 'rehidden' idol, which was hidden at the camp that was used for the merge (probably chosen by the producers because it was the only camp that did still have a hidden idol).  Keith got the hidden idol at his old camp.  Jon got the post-merge idol which was hidden on exile island after the merge, which was planned by the producers.  I think once a "camp idol" is used after the merge, it goes away.  The question is whether the post-merge idol (Jon's) will be rehidden at exile.

[needschocolate]

My guess is that, in real life, Keith is surrounded by people that pay no attention to him, to the point that he can turn to someone and say, out loud, "stick with the plan" or "we have to get this guy standing next to me into the other room because his surprise party starts in 5 minutes."

 

Further proof of my theory - no one in real life has paid enough attention to Keith to tell him that spitting all the time is gross and he should stop.  

 

I can't blame Keith for not trusting Reed.  This is a game won by figuring out who you can trust and who you can't.  Reed admitted he was going to try to get Jon to think he was with Jon, why should Keith think that Reed wasn't really trying to get Keith to think he was with Keith when he was really with Jon?  All Keith could be sure of is that Reed was lying to someone - him or Jon.  

 

However, you never say anything along the lines of "Stick with the plan" at tribal unless you are talking to someone who everyone knows is part of your alliance.  Keith was dumb for saying this no matter what Reed's real plan is.  If Reed is really planning to vote for Jon, Keith has now ruined the plan by causing Jon to play his idol (or causing someone else to tell Jon to play his idol).  If Reed is lying and is really planning to vote for Keith/Wes, then telling him to "stick with the plan" is not going to make him suddenly vote for Jon instead.  

 

So, if Reed's talking made Keith think Reed was not voting for Jon, then Reed should have stayed silent and played his idol.  Which might be why Reed said what he said - he wanted Keith to be nervous enough to play his idol.  

[truthaboutluv]

I just don't think Reed's really shown that much skill. I can think of a few things he's done that seem stupid to me like his apparent penchant for causing drama on the original Blue tribe, how badly he was at hiding his disdain for Jeremy, him not doing more to make Jaclyn feel included, his PDAs with Josh. I guess the idol thing was a good move in theory, but as choclatechip45 pointed out, it ended up fucking him over mostly. But maybe I'm too hard on him because I expected he'd be better since he's a big fan. And maybe because he is just so very annoying to me.

 

 

I have a feeling it may the bolded because truthfully most of these things seem like hindsight judgments in my opinion. The stuff about causing drama in original Hunahpu, was only known through exit interviews by Drew and Kelly. In other words, for all the drama he caused, it apparently didn't affect his game enough that the editors even felt it was worth showing because I guarantee, unless someone pays attention to these post show interviews, the average viewer knows nothing about that. And while one can argue that it didn't backfire on him because they never went to Tribal for a long time so they couldn't vote him out, the fact is they did go once because Drew was willing to throw the challenge to get them there and he didn't throw that challenge to target Reed. That tribal council had four people get votes and not one of them was Reed. So not bad for a guy who was apparently playing such a poor game at the start. 

 

I don't remember Reed ever showing clear disdain for Jeremy. I would say that was Jeremy showing clear disdain for Josh and Reed and for the record, I liked Jeremy. Also, I'd say Jeremy's irritation was more with Josh who he clearly wanted out. Reed and Josh's PDA was no more obnoxious and annoying than Jaclyn and Jon and frankly I've found the latter way more overt.  As for the not making Jaclyn more comfortable, Jaclyn had no issues with Reed or Josh. Her issues were with Wes, Alec and Keith and I did state when Josh got eliminated that it was a weakness in his game that he wasn't paying enough attention to realize how the guys were pissing off Jaclyn to try and diffuse the situation. By the time it got to the point of Jaclyn being determined to switch her vote, it was really too late. 

 

As for the stuff about Reed being the one to go through Keith's bag and that backfiring on him, I disagree. One, we've gotten no indication that Keith knows Reed is the one who went through his bag but more importantly, had Reed not uncovered the idol, the entire plan he came up with never would have been possible because it hinged on that. Reed was able to completely convince Jon and company that splitting the votes was the smart thing to do because they absolutely believed Keith had that idol and they believed it because Reed showed Missy and Baylor the idol paper. So I completely disagree that finding Keith's idol is what screwed him. No, it was actually what could have saved him and Keith and company, had Keith not fucked up the plan. 

 

As I noted above, I'm not necessarily rooting for Reed and I don't like or dislike him and I definitely don't think he's some amazing Survivor player but I do think he's proven himself resourceful and not completely hopeless once Josh was eliminated. He could have just laid down and waited to be voted off. Instead he somehow got himself in on the side of an awesome blindside against Jeremy and then this past week came up with what would have been a brilliant move and put the numbers a lot closer where truly anything could have happened. And as fan of people playing the game and trying, I have to respect that.

[peachmangosteen]

The stuff about causing drama in original Hunahpu, was only known through exit interviews by Drew and Kelly. In other words, for all the drama he caused, it apparently didn't affect his game enough that the editors even felt it was worth showing because I guarantee, unless someone pays attention to these post show interviews, the average viewer knows nothing about that.

This is true, but I did see those interviewers, so of course it colors my perception of his gameplay.

 

I don't remember Reed ever showing clear disdain for Jeremy.

It's a YMMV thing because I definitely did. He openly rolled his eyes after super badly pretending to be happy (IMO) for Jeremy after he won the IC.

 

I definitely don't think he's some amazing Survivor player but I do think he's proven himself resourceful and not completely hopeless once Josh was eliminated.

I agree. I mean it's not like he's displaying Alec/Drew/Wes/Keith level of stupidity!

And, for me, it's not like he's alone in not being that great. I think Jeremy, Josh, and Jon are all fairly not good at the game, too. Almost everyone this season kinda sucks. It's hilarious.

Edited December 2, 2014 by peachmangosteen

[KimberStormer]

My guess is that, in real life, Keith is surrounded by people that pay no attention to him, to the point that he can turn to someone and say, out loud, "stick with the plan" or "we have to get this guy standing next to me into the other room because his surprise party starts in 5 minutes."

 

Further proof of my theory - no one in real life has paid enough attention to Keith to tell him that spitting all the time is gross and he should stop.  

 

I think this is a pretty great analysis that I had never thought of before.  Dunno if it's true, but a very interesting thought.

 

I do think though that, while Keith obviously spits more than the average guy, the editors also go out of their way to show him spitting at every opportunity.  I thought so especially when he was sitting out that challenge and they only cut to him for him to spit.  Wouldn't want us to forget that Keith is an unpolished man of the people, would you, editors.

[ProfCrash]

Wes said in his exit interviews that they knew that Reed had gone through Keith's bag. Keith was told that Reed had gone through his bag and was telling people that Keith had the idol. According to Wes, Keith and Wes did not trust Reed and were leary of working with him after the bag rooting incident. So they knew about it, we just didn't see Keith find out about it.

 

Given the number of people left in the game, I would have been shocked if Keith was not aware of the fact that Reed looked through his bag. It really didn't help anyone in Natalie's alliance to not tell Keith about it because they wanted to get rid of Reed. That is also why Keith, Wes, and Alec voted for Reed at the last tribal, he was Jeremy's target and they didn't trust Reed so why not? No one told them about the plan to vote out Jeremy, and I think we know why they left them out of the loop.

 

We didn't see much of what was happening in the original blue tribe because they were winning so much. For example, we had no idea they were plowing through so much rice until the tribes swapped. The only way we would have seen what Reed was up to with his tribe winning so much is if he had reached Russell levels of obnoxiousness. We have heard from ousted players that Reed was causing drama in his tribe and was an early target because of that. When Reed rejoined Josh, he did not try and pull in people from his original tribe probably because he did not have a real alliance over there. So I can buy that Reed was not in a strong position early in the game and I'll buy that he caused drama that we simply were not shown because they kept winning.

 

Reed has made some strong moves the last few weeks but his behavior has bitten him in the ass. Keith should have kept his mouth shut but he didn't because of Reed's behavior and the fact that Keith didn't trust Reed. It meant that Keith had to play his idol and Wes went home but it also weakened Reed's game. There is no way Jon, Jaclyn, Natalie, Missy or Baylor will work with Reed after this vote. Jon knows he was the target. Missy and Baylor do not like Keith or Alex because of how he has behaved. Reed is most likely gone as soon as he loses immunity.

 

Natalie is probably in a good place because the two couples will want to use her as a vote when they get to five. I am guessing that Natalie is leaning towards working with Baylor and Missy over Jon and Jaclyn but I think she is going to be seen as the swing vote. Jon and Jaclyn might think about tossing her at 5 because they think they can beat Missy and Baylor in immunity challenges and Natalie is more dangerous but I have a feeling that Natalie makes the final three.

 

Reed, Alec(x), Keith are the next to go.

[Special K]

 

Wouldn't want us to forget that Keith is an unpolished man of the people, would you, editors.

 

Right?  The best-est is when he spits as punctuation during a talking head.  I wonder if the producers ask for that special?

[Miss Scarlet]

Did not need to see shots of the contestants' feet turning purple during the challenge.

 

It's amazing how Wes/Keith (more so Keith) managed to torpedo both Josh and Reed. I don't think we've seen anyone unintentionally screw over their own alliance this badly since Corinne ruined Malcolm's game in Caramoan.

 

I still think that it was poor gameplay on the part of Josh's alliance not to come and talk to Jaclyn, but I read Wes's interview where he says he talked to Jon because Jon talked to him and never made the effort with Jaclyn because she never spoke to him. Knowing that Wes didn't really realize how to play the game, it actually does make sense to make that this is what he would do because in life why would you talk to someone who never bothered to speak to you? It does make Jaclyn sound entitled.

Edited December 2, 2014 by wudpixie

[choclatechip45]

Josh & Reed clearly aligned with the wrong people.

[Special K]

 

Josh & Reed clearly aligned with the wrong people.

 

This is what amazes me about Survivor, as it is so often played.  People scramble at the beginning to get into an alliance before they really know anything about anyone.  Sometimes it works out, but more often it's a hot mess.  And sometimes you get stuck there, with no place to go.

[PaperTree]

Spitting is an art form in Keith's neck of the piney woods, but it's still gross.

[needschocolate]

This is what amazes me about Survivor, as it is so often played.  People scramble at the beginning to get into an alliance before they really know anything about anyone.  Sometimes it works out, but more often it's a hot mess.  And sometimes you get stuck there, with no place to go.

 

On the flip side - if you don't align with someone by the first tribal, you increase your chances of getting voted off - no one has an interest in keeping you there.  It makes you an easy target.  Even if you align before the first tribal but waited until everyone else has aligned themselves with someone, you automatically become the low person on your alliance.  As long as you are not in the minority alliance, you have a chance to increase your ranking.  I am not sure that waiting to align is less risky than forming an alliance right away.  

[Oholibamah]

This is what amazes me about Survivor, as it is so often played.  People scramble at the beginning to get into an alliance before they really know anything about anyone.  Sometimes it works out, but more often it's a hot mess.  And sometimes you get stuck there, with no place to go.

 

Cue Brandon Hantz making it so far in South Pacific, RC and Abi's frenemy relationship, Francesca and Phillip's short lived alliance, Kat's unexpected blindside in One World, and everyone's favorite, the entire Casaya alliance. I love that people do this because it is inevitably hilarious.

 

I feel like Josh specifically sided with the men BECAUSE they were stupid and supposedly easy to control. When he rejoined with Reed, their alliance options were limited because of Reed's poor social game and a unified Hunahpu alliance (Julie/Jeremy/Kelley/Natalie/Missy) with Jon on the other side. So it's unfortunate that so many stupid players torpedoed their game, but that's the risk of playing with those sort of players.

 

It actually reminds me a lot of the vote that sent Tyson home in HvV. In hindsight, yes, Rob should have been more aware of Tyson's fear of Parvati, and assigned him to vote for her in the first place... but how do you even predict something like that?

[Miss Scarlet]

Baylor's Homie G moment was supposed to be funny, but just reminded me that she's still in that insecure young adulthood phase of life where she's constantly trying to prove she's "cool" (kind of like when she kept telling Alec "I'm down" when he asked her to throw out his garbage). It makes sense too based on the exit interviews from the Coyopa tribe members where they talked about how she wanted to align with the guys because she wanted their attention all the time.

[blackwing]

I feel like Josh specifically sided with the men BECAUSE they were stupid and supposedly easy to control. When he rejoined with Reed, their alliance options were limited because of Reed's poor social game and a unified Hunahpu alliance (Julie/Jeremy/Kelley/Natalie/Missy) with Jon on the other side. So it's unfortunate that so many stupid players torpedoed their game, but that's the risk of playing with those sort of players.

I don't agree with this at all, you act like it's completely other people's fault that Josh and Reed are where they are in the game right now.  Josh played extremely poorly, he was overly aggressive from the start, culminating in his "you OWE me" that turned off Baylor for good.  Reed didn't talk to anybody at all in the beginning, and it wasn't until Josh got voted out that he tried to do anything.

 

Josh shouldn't have been so aggressive, he could have been quietly doing things in the background, but instead, it was evident that he was controlling the game, hence the "Jeremy v. Josh" showdown that everyone knew about.  He could have done his best to minimize his role in the ousters, but he didn't seem to make any secret of anything.

 

When it comes down to it, Reed is screwed because he talked too much.  Jon is a dim bulb and was clearly on his side.  Even after being told to play his idol, he wasn't sure he needed to.  Reed didn't need to say anything at all at tribal council and Jon would have gone home.  Yes, Keith helped to expose the alliance and the plan, but Keith wouldn't have said anything if Reed hadn't talked about Keith's idol in the first place.  Why did he need to specifically call out Wes?  Why not just say something ambiguous or innocuous like "I don't know who has an idol, but I wish I did."  Reed overplayed just like Josh did.

[Special K]

The way these bozos behave in TC makes me nostalgic for Tarzan's "the game is afoot."  What a great brush off to Jeff's intrusive questions!

 

Or Boston Rob.  Say what you will about him, but he was (or became) a master at artfully and charmingly deflecting JP's questions.

[Miss Scarlet]

The whole framing of Jon discussing Jaclyn's illness and the show acting like he is so commendable/magnanimous for staying with her even though she's infertile was really gross.

 

Jaclyn seemed kind of cold to/uninterested in the kids at the reward.

Edited December 3, 2014 by wudpixie

[JudyObscure]

I didn't notice how Jaclyn was with the kids, but I agree that it was sort of offensive of the show to imply that  Jon  was doing her a big favor by overlooking her condition.  Jaclyn might want to find a man who doesn't want children at all -- there are many.

[peachmangosteen]

Yea, that whole thing came off very poorly, but not surprisingly from this show, what with it's usual rampant sexism.

 

wudpixie, great comments about Baylor. I agree. And it's probably why I have grown to find Baylor oddly endearing and cut her a lot of slack. That and the fact that I kinda (shamefully) really like that song of her's.

 

I completely agree with your assessment of Josh and Reed's gameplay, blackwing.

[KimberStormer]

The whole framing of Jon discussing Jaclyn's illness and the show acting like he is so commendable/magnanimous for staying with her even though she's infertile was really gross.

 

Jaclyn seemed kind of cold to/uninterested in the kids at the reward.

 

I felt bad for Jon in that talking head because they were obviously pushing this question on him -- "so you're not going to dump Jaclyn even though she can't have kids???" and he was, to my mind, clearly befuddled by the whole line of questioning and having to explain something so ridiculous.  I suppose there must be men out there who would consider that a dealbreaker, but who would want to be with someone like that in the first place?

[Captain Asshat]

The way these bozos behave in TC makes me nostalgic for Tarzan's "the game is afoot."  What a great brush off to Jeff's intrusive questions!

 

Or Boston Rob.  Say what you will about him, but he was (or became) a master at artfully and charmingly deflecting JP's questions.

Yes! I actually brought up Tarzan while we were watching TC. As annoying as it was to repeatedly hear, "The game is afoot," it was effective. Survivor contestants need to learn how to reply to any leading questions from JP with, "Yes, Jeff. You're entirely right."

 

Wrong way:

JP: So Keith, do you think there are other plans being discussed that others don't know about?

Keith: Oh yeah. I'm sure that <continues on and basically tips off everyone to his alliance's plan and causes massive undoing of said plan>.

 

Right way:

JP: So Keith, do you think there are other plans being discussed that others don't know about?

Keith: Probably, yeah.

 

After 20something seasons, haven't people figured this out?

Edited December 8, 2014 by Captain Asshat

[Guest]

wudpixie, great comments about Baylor. I agree. And it's probably why I have grown to find Baylor oddly endearing and cut her a lot of slack. That and the fact that I kinda (shamefully) really like that song of her's.

Oh, I didn't even know Baylor sang and wrote songs.  They're catchy.  She doesn't sound bad.  

[Ms Blue Jay]

Wes asking Jeff about making pancakes naked on "Two and a half Men" and Jeff's embarrassed reaction was hysterical.  LOL.  There should be moments like that every season.