S05.E07: Crossed

[CletusMusashi]

Wait... the doctor has testicles? When did that happen?

[Pixiebomb]

You know what I'm suddenly wondering?

Was the strawberry bribe a shoutout to "Firefly?"

Now I'm wishing they'd gone in disguised as paramedics, with Daryl rehearsing his one line of dialogue over and over...

*sigh* Firefly......

Edited November 25, 2014 by Pixiebomb

[Zahdii]

 

 

 

In other news, I still don't care about Abraham.  I feel like they're going through all the motions of following a playbook to make him a sympathetic character, and on paper it really does look compelling, for some reason it's all falling flat.  I know he's a well-known actor playing a well-known character from the comics, but it's just not working for me.

 

The writers need to abondan the script and start fresh.  Either kill him off in some fashion or have him come to an epiphany and admit that he's capable in many ways, but he's not a leader.  He's a follower with the admirable skills of having advanced weaponry training, loyalty to the cause, and the willingness to complete his mission whatever the cost.  But he sucks at interpersonal skills and choosing a team.  Have him admit that and follow around after CDB.

I mean, when Beth is starting to lap you, things need to change. 

 

lol, for a moment there I was frantically trying to remember when Beth tried to give Tyrese a lap dance.

Edited November 25, 2014 by Zahdii

[Pete Martell]

I knew there was some mention of some things that Noah told Rick, but the audience still doesn't know what the full deal is.  To me, that's infuriating.  I mean, they have someone who was on the inside.  But they chose not to tell us.  So, when it comes down to making a decision to negotiate or to sneak in (a la Rick), we - the audience - don't have the necessary info (or, as Abraham would say, "intel").  Look, it's minor point, but either the writers are sloppy in not having Noah spill all the beans OR it's just not important to know.  And I believe that's the case.  Which leads me back: What the hell is the big deal with the hospital?  And if we lose someone there (likely) for something that makes no sense, well, that'll piss me off.

 

I think they probably assume viewers know everything from "Slabtown," and having the characters talk about it at length would bore viewers. I guess the basic idea is that they don't have enough people to make any real changes in the hospital, so the debate was about which plan would cause the least bloodshed.

That's the thing.  I was going to say he IS a dependable babysitter and then I remembered he let the guy who was going to break the baby's neck live, that is after he allowed said baby neck-breaker to get loose on his watch, and then lied about the whole thing,  so no. Don't count on him for anything, other than standing around, eyes swimming in tears, that is.

 

We don't really know if he thought Martin was dead or not. I will never understand that plot point.

The writers need to abondan the script and start fresh.  Either kill him off in some fashion or have him come to an epiphany and admit that he's capable in many ways, but he's not a leader.  He's a follower with the admirable skills of having advanced weaponry training, loyalty to the cause, and the willingness to complete his mission whatever the cause.  But he sucks at interpersonal skills and choosing a team.  Have him admit that and follow around after CDB.

 

I think they've sort of tried to show that he isn't really a leader, especially with his checking out for an entire episode. I'm just wondering where it will go after this. The show already has 2 or 3 emo beta guys with anger issues. The main problem with Abraham has always been that he was mostly added to the show because he was in the comics, not because he was needed on the canvas. I guess we'll see if that can change now that his main storyline is over.

[mightysparrow]

Speaking of bad writing..

 

One of the reasons why we don't know what Noah told Rick is because there was no scene with this happening.  In fact, we didn't have a scene relating what happened between the minute Daryl tells SOMEONE to come on out and the minute they started tearing up the church.  Scenes like the rest of the group finding out that BETH IS ALIVE????  What the flying fuck is that?  Rick and Carl were so close to Beth and we don't even get to see their reaction to the news that she's been found.  Once again, it's 'we all owe Carol'. They didn't even mention Beth's name.  

 

Beth's rescue, just like practically everything else this season, is all about Carol. And all about shipping. Because that's really what this cluster-fuck of a story line is about.  It's about whipping the fangirls into a frenzy and then have them tear each others throats out from now until February.  AGAIN.

[Pete Martell]

Totally agree.  I mean, the man's a cop for Chrissakes!  Follow his lead.  If I were in that group, I'd be following every word Rick said because he's the most experienced.  That, and he's meaner than a snake . . . when he needs to be.

 

Many of the people currently with them have either never had Rick as a leader (Noah, Tyreese, Sasha) or were there when he was having an extended mental breakdown (Daryl). He doesn't have that type of hold over the group. 

 

The problem is that the main objection to his plan was that Dawn might not be a bad person so they should try a peaceful solution. And even if they do believe that Dawn is a decent person who is going along to get along, the world is not in a place where they can take that kind of risk. They should know that. 

 

It's funny, because the fandom idea is often that Daryl is bad-ass and Rick is a big weepy mess, but the last season and a half has been just the reverse. At this point I think Daryl is increasingly unreliable when it comes to making any major decisions and it's time to declare him the group woobie - good for helping other people not lose their humanity, but totally inappropriate to put in a major shot-calling role.

 

Of course in this episode everyone in the group sans Rick (I guess) lost about 500 IQ points so who I am to judge.

Speaking of bad writing..

 

One of the reasons why we don't know what Noah told Rick is because there was no scene with this happening.  In fact, we didn't have a scene relating what happened between the minute Daryl tells SOMEONE to come on out and the minute they started tearing up the church.  Scenes like the rest of the group finding out that BETH IS ALIVE????  What the flying fuck is that?  Rick and Carl were so close to Beth and we don't even get to see their reaction to the news that she's been found.  Once again, it's 'we all owe Carol'. They didn't even mention Beth's name.  

 

This didn't really bother me, because I don't think any of them would have had a reaction. They knew there was a chance she might still be alive and they already chose not to look for her. I think Carl is mostly focused on protecting his immediate family (+ Michonne) and Rick doesn't really let himself feel those types of emotions at this point. 

[CletusMusashi]

Wouldn't it be funny if they end up going into Grady with guns blazing, kicking doors down and throwing zombie heads at people, find Carol just when she's able to walk to the escape vehicle, go speeding off all triumphant...

and completely forget Beth?

[Pete Martell]

Beth's rescue, just like practically everything else this season, is all about Carol. And all about shipping. Because that's really what this cluster-fuck of a story line is about.  It's about whipping the fangirls into a frenzy and then have them tear each others throats out from now until February.  AGAIN.

 

I don't think it's about Carol (Beth had an entire episode about herself and only herself), but I agree that shipping is likely the reason no one (even Maggie) got to care about Beth's absence. It's about Daryl and Daryl's feelings and how Beth changed him. 

[ChipBach]

Speaking of bad writing..

 

One of the reasons why we don't know what Noah told Rick is because there was no scene with this happening.  In fact, we didn't have a scene relating what happened between the minute Daryl tells SOMEONE to come on out and the minute they started tearing up the church.  Scenes like the rest of the group finding out that BETH IS ALIVE????  What the flying fuck is that?  Rick and Carl were so close to Beth and we don't even get to see their reaction to the news that she's been found.  Once again, it's 'we all owe Carol'. They didn't even mention Beth's name.  

 

Beth's rescue, just like practically everything else this season, is all about Carol. And all about shipping. Because that's really what this cluster-fuck of a story line is about.  It's about whipping the fangirls into a frenzy and then have them tear each others throats out from now until February.  AGAIN.

Word to that sparrow.

 

We had all these terribly boring and non-helpful scenes of Maggie planning sun screen, the group fishing with nets (really?!? two years in the ZA and you are just now experimenting with fishing?), and the Father Weirdo escape (as aptly put in the show write-up, was he being held against his will??)...  We get 20 minutes of scenes from those things and none of what sparrow mentions.  really strange.

Edited November 25, 2014 by ChipBach

[editorgrrl]

I feel like an idiot (but I'm going to say it was the stomach bug I had, rendering me out of it), but I had thought the strawberries were to mimic blood - not a bribe. Haha!

 

I thought Beth gave the old guy strawberries because he was allergic. He'd eat them and go into anaphylaxis, thereby creating a diversion. Instead, he fake coughed a few times, stopping abruptly once Beth was clear.

 

At which point I realized the most common allergic reaction to strawberries is tingly mouth, lips & tongue—not very dramatic. (And I had no stomach bug to blame!) Then I started to wonder where he'd stashed the strawberries. Do scrubs have pockets? Were the strawberries squashed when he fake collapsed?

 

I need to get a life.

[kj4ever]

So it's been two days since I saw this episode and I am still in shock that:

 

A. Rick and Co. found out two of their women were being held at a place that justified rape as "keeping up moral".

 

B. Two of their women were there....Beth and Carol

 

C. Daryl agreed to a plan that would keep said women, his favorites (no matter what ship/non-ship you are) stuck in Rape Memorial longer.

 

Best case scenario the writers are idiots, worst case scenario they don't see the rape thing as that big of a deal, kind of like how Shane's attempted rape of Lori was treated as him "not being himself".

[CletusMusashi]

Rape is traumatic if the victim is Carl.

His hat might fall off.

[NurseGiGi]

But the tops with the (barely) pointy ends were seven feet in the air- fine for giant 10 foot zombies but regular people sized walkers not so much.

Plus it's not as if they were buried and stable- Daryl just jammed them into the ground and knowing fence posts I can assure you that a small child could knock that over easily. The writers just wanted to illustrate the destruction of the church and didn't think it through.

 

The only way these things would do any good would be if you had suicidal zombies who climbed on top of the church and threw themselves on top of them.  And even then, they aren't sturdy enough to do the job.  Where's Morgan when you need him?

[ghoulina]

I just can't get on board with this whole "Dawn might be a good person (or halfway good person)" idea. She knows the Lollicops are raping the wards, and just turns a blind eye. And she is complicit in bringing in MORE wards for them to assault. How could she be good???? I've always held the belief that those who stand by and watch evil and do nothing are just as bad (if not worse) than those doing the evil. No. I would walk into that place, slit every cop's throat, free the wards, and ride off into the sunset with Carol and....who? What's her name again? Oh, oh yea, Beth. 

[Pete Martell]

We had all these terribly boring and non-helpful scenes of Maggie planning sun screen, the group fishing with nets (really?!? two years in the ZA and you are just now experimenting with fishing?), and the Father Weirdo escape (as aptly put in the show write-up, was he being held against his will??)...  We get 20 minutes of scenes from those things and none of what sparrow mentions.  really strange.

 

Tara was in an apartment building until recently. During the time Glenn was with CDB, he mostly went on supply runs while a few others fished. There was no fishing anywhere after that. Rosita was mostly constantly moving, probably living off canned food.

 

I thought Gabriel escaping the church fit in with the themes of the episode (the group trying to free two of their own even as he sees the group as bad people), it's just that even though Gabriel's only been in three episodes, it feels like the same scene over and over.

 

I actually enjoyed all of the church scenes and the scenes with GREATM. I wouldn't have minded more of their reactions about Beth, but I think the 4 strands in this episode worked. I kind of wish they'd taken out more of the scenes of them in Atlanta or going to Atlanta. That was probably supposed to be the money material, but it was my least favorite portion of the episode (even the Sasha/Tyreese stuff felt more suited to another episode).

[JBody]

I enjoyed the ten minute scene of watching Maggie put down her water bottle, saunter over to the back end of the fire truck, shoot side-eye at a catatonic Sgt. Moobs, laboriously retrieve an extendable ladder, cart it back to the front of the truck, set it up in lean-to position over "Dr." Mullet, get a blanket, and place said blanket over ladder, to provide shade for "Dr." Mullet.

 

Just as much as I enjoyed watching a sweating Father Pee Pants bent over the floor, scraping at dried blood spots with his fingernails, and then wiping the stains with his spit and sleeve, and then the other time when a sweating Father Pee Pants bent over the floor, machete in hand, prying a board up off the floor, and then another one, and another one.  

 

Sorry, sarcasm font is broken. 

[Pete Martell]

I just can't get on board with this whole "Dawn might be a good person (or halfway good person)" idea. She knows the Lollicops are raping the wards, and just turns a blind eye. And she is complicit in bringing in MORE wards for them to assault. How could she be good???? I've always held the belief that those who stand by and watch evil and do nothing are just as bad (if not worse) than those doing the evil. No. I would walk into that place, slit every cop's throat, free the wards, and ride off into the sunset with Carol and....who? What's her name again? Oh, oh yea, Beth. 

 

I agree. I think that she is a person who may want the easiest path, which is what they played up a little, but I don't think she's nice. The main problem is no one really respects her, which means she technically is not a leader. 

[JackONeill]

But see, did Noah even convey the whole rape aspect of the place??  WE saw and heard so little when we picked up with Rick, that we don't know what's in our peoples' heads.  It seemed like Rick knew the gravity of it (or was assuming) because he said the bit about "slitting throats."  (When you say that, that suggests you're not going in there to engage them in chess.)  Yet, Daryl waffles and wants to negotiate, which would maybe make sense if you didn't know about the predilection towards rape.  So, which is it?  Do our people know what the hospital people have done?  (And speaking of which, how much DOES Noah know?)  But it's all moot.

Edited November 25, 2014 by JackONeill

[Pete Martell]

I enjoyed the ten minute scene of watching Maggie put down her water bottle, saunter over to the back end of the fire truck, shoot side-eye at a catatonic Sgt. Moobs, laboriously retrieve an extendable ladder, cart it back to the front of the truck, set it up in lean-to position over "Dr." Mullet, get a blanket, and place said blanket over ladder, to provide shade for "Dr." Mullet.

 

Sarcasm aside, I actually did enjoy these scenes. I know she has forgotten Beth, burn the witch (general fandom response), etc. but I was pleased to get to see Maggie being more like she was in earlier seasons - compassionate but tough. She's been so zonked out lately. I really didn't feel like the scenes took up that much airtime either.

[JackONeill]

Before we had this episode, we had - what - three or four - episodes that took plenty of time to play themselves out (although not always effectively).  Now, all of a sudden, as we're cruising into the mid-season finale, we start to rush, rush, rush.

[nodorothyparker]

One of the reasons why we don't know what Noah told Rick is because there was no scene with this happening.  In fact, we didn't have a scene relating what happened between the minute Daryl tells SOMEONE to come on out and the minute they started tearing up the church.  Scenes like the rest of the group finding out that BETH IS ALIVE????  What the flying fuck is that?  Rick and Carl were so close to Beth and we don't even get to see their reaction to the news that she's been found.  Once again, it's 'we all owe Carol'. They didn't even mention Beth's name.  

 

Rick apparently thinks her capable of at least holding a gun if they get to her.  But you're right, other than that, not a word.  Not even a "damn, Maggie should have been here to hear this."

 

I've never made any secret of the fact that I found Beth a serviceable background character at best.  I just don't care about her.  But I've found the writing where she's concerned puzzling to say the least in comparison to the "Where's Beth?" hype the show was pitching.  Her own sister and larger group family never mention her and don't seem to care whether she's alive or dead.  Daryl seemed to remember only because a conveniently plotted car happened to drive by at the right time.  As much as I enjoyed Daryl and Carol's excellent adventure through burned out Atlanta, I think it's rather telling that that was more about them and all their individual ghosts than their search for Beth. Noah, who's only known her a couple of days showtime, is the only one who's shown any real concern or urgency. 

 

It seems rather obvious at this point that however her story turns out here, it's also going to be more about Daryl and his feelings about siding against Rick and his role in losing her in the first place than it is actually about her.    Sure, she got plenty of airtime in the execrable Slabtown, but she's not even the star of her own story.  It's almost like the show wants us to know that what happens to her ultimately doesn't matter.  It's all about Daryl.

[JBody]

The Governor was a dictator but on the surface a benevolent, paternal figure to his people (kinda like Kim Jong-un).

 

Gareth was the most unconventional, and hence, interesting villain so far, due to his Starbucks manager/psycho admixture.

 

Dawn is just a martinet, and they are a dime a dozen now, so it's likely more than a few would survive years into the ZA.  Unless I see more from her I will consider her the lamest antagonist thus far.

Sarcasm aside, I actually did enjoy these scenes. I know she has forgotten Beth, burn the witch (general fandom response), etc. but I was pleased to get to see Maggie being more like she was in earlier seasons - compassionate but tough. She's been so zonked out lately. I really didn't feel like the scenes took up that much airtime either.

 

Ugh Pete you are far more patient than I...

 

My actual point, though, was to say that I agree with mightysparrow and ChipBach in that TPTB ignore or sacrifice scenes that should be there and instead devote screen time to scenes that are pointless, repetitive and burn up the precious few minutes we have of this show.

Edited November 25, 2014 by JBody

[Pete Martell]

So it's been two days since I saw this episode and I am still in shock that:

 

A. Rick and Co. found out two of their women were being held at a place that justified rape as "keeping up moral".

 

B. Two of their women were there....Beth and Carol

 

C. Daryl agreed to a plan that would keep said women, his favorites (no matter what ship/non-ship you are) stuck in Rape Memorial longer.

 

Best case scenario the writers are idiots, worst case scenario they don't see the rape thing as that big of a deal, kind of like how Shane's attempted rape of Lori was treated as him "not being himself".

 

I think Daryl's belief is that the plan will make Beth and Carol safer. 

 

I feel like the show mostly only cared about the rape when it affected Beth, someone we knew. It's not something they want to bring up with the group, because then it becomes less about saving Beth and Carol and more about saving any number of women viewers haven't seen. And for a group of four, that's not likely to happen. The group only cares about saving people they know. Of course, the question then is why bring up all these women being raped at all. This is where the show is still too often written with a man's POV - rape is there for suspense and then forgotten.

 

I think in either scenario, Rick's or Tyreese's, everything would have ended in chaos, but Rick's was a more controlled chaos, which is what they needed. 

[JackONeill]

They (Rick and crew) had three of Dawn's players.  Without knowing just how many Dawn had, 3 is significant (which means three less weapons).  I say leave them tied up in that warehouse and go into the hospital like Rick was first saying.

But it's all moot.  Moot, I tell you.  I can't move the moot.  And I can't root for the moot.  And my hair is starting to look like Rick's.  This is always how it starts.

[Pete Martell]

Rick apparently thinks her capable of at least holding a gun if they get to her.  But you're right, other than that, not a word.  Not even a "damn, Maggie should have been here to hear this."

 

I've never made any secret of the fact that I found Beth a serviceable background character at best.  I just don't care about her.  But I've found the writing where she's concerned puzzling to say the least in comparison to the "Where's Beth?" hype the show was pitching.  Her own sister and larger group family never mention her and don't seem to care whether she's alive or dead.  Daryl seemed to remember only because a conveniently plotted car happened to drive by at the right time.  As much as I enjoyed Daryl and Carol's excellent adventure through burned out Atlanta, I think it's rather telling that that was more about them and all their individual ghosts than their search for Beth. Noah, who's only known her a couple of days showtime, is the only one who's shown any real concern or urgency. 

 

I think Atlanta was about Beth for Daryl, albeit more as a symbol (goodness and hope).

 

One of the pacing issues with the season is that we have only ever seen most of the group when they're in fever-pitch mode and can't think of someone they once knew who is too far away to focus on. We saw them at Terminus. Then they had a day to breathe and make some tentative plans about DC. Then Bob was kidnapped and they had to kill the last of Gareth's group. Then we didn't see them for three episodes. 

 

We've only ever had a handful of scenes where they even could have mentioned Beth. I think it would have worked better if Rick had mentioned her to Michonne, and not just mentioned Carol, but overall I think the show only ever sees Beth as important to herself, to Daryl, and to Noah, as before that she was a background character; either that or they just assume viewers know the group cares about Beth, even if they don't mention her.

[JackONeill]

"If Beth falls in the hospital and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"

[ghoulina]

They (Rick and crew) had three of Dawn's players.  Without knowing just how many Dawn had, 3 is significant (which means three less weapons).  I say leave them tied up in that warehouse and go into the hospital like Rick was first saying.

But it's all moot.  Moot, I tell you.  I can't move the moot.  And I can't root for the moot.  And my hair is starting to look like Rick's.  This is always how it starts.

 

Mootness aside, I totally agree with this. I think the hostage idea was colossally dumb, BUT....since they happened to come across several of her people, yes. Just leave them tied up (thoroughly, none of this half-arsed zip tie business) and go take the others out. Now you have less people to worry about once you're in the place. No trading necessary. 

 

We've only ever had a handful of scenes where they even could have mentioned Beth. I think it would have worked better if Rick had mentioned her to Michonne, and not just mentioned Carol,

 

Yea, I think he could have said something. It would take two seconds. Yes, he owes Carol for taking care of his baby while they were on the run, but who took care of her the entire time in the prison? Who secluded herself from everyone, including her beloved father, in order to keep Judith isolated from the plague? Beth did. She has done a lot for that family as well, and while I'm not a giant rah-rah Beth fan, I don't think it would kill to take 2 seconds to have Rick show some gratitude for her as well. 

"If Beth falls in the hospital and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"

 

HA! You just won the internet for today. 

[ChipBach]

Tara was in an apartment building until recently. During the time Glenn was with CDB, he mostly went on supply runs while a few others fished. There was no fishing anywhere after that. Rosita was mostly constantly moving, probably living off canned food.

 

I thought Gabriel escaping the church fit in with the themes of the episode (the group trying to free two of their own even as he sees the group as bad people), it's just that even though Gabriel's only been in three episodes, it feels like the same scene over and over.

 

 Yabut...  There was an 8 month period (after the farm before the prison) the group was walking about, looking for food.  Also, Daryl has been using his sick hunting skills since the beginning.  One would think, 2 years in, people would have not only learned how to use things to fish, they would have picked up a few fishing poles...  

 

As for Father G, I guess my point was I didn't realize he was being held against his will.  Why didn't he just say "Hey gang, gonna take a stroll"?

[Pete Martell]

 Yabut...  There was an 8 month period (after the farm before the prison) the group was walking about, looking for food.  Also, Daryl has been using his sick hunting skills since the beginning.  One would think, 2 years in, people would have not only learned how to use things to fish, they would have picked up a few fishing poles...  

 

As for Father G, I guess my point was I didn't realize he was being held against his will.  Why didn't he just say "Hey gang, gonna take a stroll"?

 

The only one of the three who really knows Daryl is Glenn. He and Glenn barely spoke at CDB when Daryl was at his most food-providery (sorry...). I can see where Glenn should have known how to fish during those 7 or 8 months on the road, but I wasn't all that surprised he didn't, because that was never his role in the group.

 

I think Gabriel genuinely believed they might kill him if he asked them if he could leave.

Yea, I think he could have said something. It would take two seconds. Yes, he owes Carol for taking care of his baby while they were on the run, but who took care of her the entire time in the prison? Who secluded herself from everyone, including her beloved father, in order to keep Judith isolated from the plague? Beth did. She has done a lot for that family as well, and while I'm not a giant rah-rah Beth fan, I don't think it would kill to take 2 seconds to have Rick show some gratitude for her as well. 

 

I think when he talks about owing Carol, he means banishing her and yet she still helped keep Judith alive and then saved them at Terminus.

 

I think he just sees Beth as another member of the group, someone else dispensable to the point where he might not want to leave his children behind for a rescue mission. 

 

I do agree that they should have had someone mention Beth a little. I guess they assume we know they care. I do think they care, I don't really get any vibe of "screw Beth, who is Beth," and I think fandom memes like this ultimately become about themselves and not what is actually onscreen, but I do agree that one or two lines would have been an improvement.

[AngelaHunter]

At this point I think Daryl is increasingly unreliable when it comes to making any major decisions and it's time to declare him the group woobie - good for helping other people not lose their humanity, but totally inappropriate to put in a major shot-calling role.

 

He was never in a shot-calling role, except maybe in a minor way when he and Beth were blundering around looking for booze and even then he was willing to go along with her ridiculous quest.

 

He's always been a follower and a perfect follower he was, unquestioningly, totally reliable, loyal and excellent at what he did best, which was taking orders and keeping himself and others alive at any cost. Now - and within two eps - he's gone from being utterly and appropriately ruthless re: Noah (and I know I'm the only one who thinks that he and Carol couldn't magically discern that the guy who robbed them, set zombies on them and left them to die horrible deaths was really just a sweet, scared kid), to being an inexplicably mooshy peace-maker, butting in and stopping Rick from killing Evil Cop who was just in the process of choking him to death.

 

I enjoyed the ten minute scene of watching Maggie put down her water bottle, saunter over to the back end of the fire truck, shoot side-eye at a catatonic Sgt. Moobs, laboriously retrieve an extendable ladder, cart it back to the front of the truck, set it up in lean-to position over "Dr." Mullet, get a blanket, and place said blanket over ladder, to provide shade for "Dr." Mullet.

 

 

Yeah, and silly me watching that and really expecting it to have a point of some sort.

[JBody]

....

 

Yeah, and silly me watching that and really expecting it to have a point of some sort.

 

Ha.  I guess filler is the point?  Damn, I didn't want to use the F word but....  There are so few episodes per season.  The waits between seasons and intra-season are interminable.  Every single second of screen-time should matter!  It's not like they're Dallas with 30 episodes to move a year.  GAH.

[Raven1707]

Busy week this week, so I haven't had a chance to read through all of the posts yet, but I wanted to update the ratings:

 

10-12-14 “No Sanctuary” 17.3 million
10-19-14 “Strangers” 15.143 million
10-26-14 “Four Walls and a Roof” 13.801 million
11-02-14 “Slabtown” 14.518 million
11-09-14 “Self Help” 13.534 million
11-16-14 “Consumed” 14.068 million
11-23-14 “Crossed” 13.329 million

 

With apologies to anyone who might have already reported these...

[Timetoread]

But yeah. I think they're about to find out how fun it is to have diarrhea in a world without toilet paper.

 

Diarrhea isn't much fun in a world WITH toilet paper.  That said, the human body is an amazing machine and can make all kinds of adjustments to environment in the interest of survival.  I'm willing to bet that their stomachs are pretty close to cast iron at this point and that it would take something pretty hardcore to even upset them.

 

BTW - I've always wondered why they don't simply set up at the edge of a lake or river and live off of fish and seafood, which I am sure is plentiful.  Thanks to this show I actually entertain thoughts about where geographically I'd like to be in a ZA and decided that I was in the perfect area already (right outside of DC).  I've got equidistance access to water sources, farmland and military installations.  Food, crops and ammo.  I'll wait for you Rick!

[AngelaHunter]

Ha.  I guess filler is the point?

 

Honestly, if they need lengthy fillers in a show that is 42 minutes, if you take away a interminable ads, and so few eps each season then someone is not doing his/her job. We have to spend all this time watching what seemed to be slo-mo "Maggie vs.The Ladder", yet the conclusion of the Termites was over and done with so fast it made my head spin? Just...ack!

[BrokenRemote]

I think it was to emphasize that here she was struggling to get a ladder down so she could create some shade for Eugene, a man she barely knows.  Meanwhile, here we have big and strong Abraham, who was supposedly his friend, kneeling on the road for hours in a state of catatonia.

 

I'm done with Abraham too.  Wish he'd get eaten.  Still grossed out by him and Rosalita talking about giving him a full body shave.  Yuck.

 

 

 

I think the last time he got sort of cleaned up was when he burned his dirty shirt in the fire pit outside the prison.

 

I mentioned it last season and many didn't believe me, but we could see it in one of the "remember when" commercial clips of past season scenes.  The scene was of Morgan pointing a gun over newly awoken Rick, who was lying on the ground with his hospital gown open.  Somewhere in between Season 1 and that shirt burning scene, Rick found a razor to shave his chest.  If it was so important to him to shave his chest hair, why can't he do anything about his head hair and the unkempt beard?  He looks like he stumbled off the set of "Hatfields and McCoys".

 

 

Maybe his body is so dirty that his chest hair simply fell out/rotted off, whereas his head hair has molded to his head like a helmet, and has hardened into a protective device of sorts, which is why he keeps it around.

I would have gone with "Meat gr!" because it's what the walkers would be saying/growling if they could.

I thought first of "MEAGR T", like those "Do you suffer from LOW T????!" ads.  Then, to my shame, I thought if Maggie died they could be "GREAT"!

[Timetoread]

First thing: "Who'll Stop the Rain" = great movie.

 

Second thing: your comment about Abraham.  You know everybody's seen bad times.  Look at what Tara (of all people) went through.  And she's managed to hold her shit together.  Yet, hulking, bruising, yell-at-everybody Abraham collapses like a pair of cheap socks.

 

I realize everyone processes grief and loss differently, and we've certainly seen different ways from our characters.  (Rick making telephone calls, for one.)  But with Abraham it just seemed . . . I don't know, odd.

 

It wasn't the phone calls that telegraphed that Rick was done.  It was the uncontrollable sobbing, in fetal position on the ground that made me suspect that perhaps Rick was a bit upset.  Seriously, I think this show often shows that everybody has their breaking point and I can understand this being Abraham's.  But damn it was annoying watching that big idiot kneel on the ground and spew crazy at anybody being nice to him.  I honestly thought that Maggie, in her frustration, would lash out at him about her own recent, unlivable pain and as the grief overtook her, his grief would overtake HIM and they'd have a somewhat bonding moment  A moment to match the bonding that just took place between Rosita and Glenn.  Not a love triangle, folks, a love rectangle!

 

I said the same thing after they waffled on wanting to finish off Terminus and Bob got eaten as a result.   After this mess of a hospital storyline goes horribly wrong (and it seems pretty obvious that it will), I want Rick to tell them "I told you so.  Every time you all get touchy feely about strangers who have taken one of ours, one of our people die.  How many times are we going to have to do this before it sinks in?"

 

Here's the thing.  This logic right here - that I agree with, BTW - is darn near word for word what Carl said when he shot that boy.  But everybody was mad at Carl and called him psycho and a miniGovernor and such.  I always understood why Carl shot that boy and Herschel's tattling and pontificating about it never sat right with me.  It is the truth of their lives right now.

[Pete Martell]

He was never in a shot-calling role, except maybe in a minor way when he and Beth were blundering around looking for booze and even then he was willing to go along with her ridiculous quest.

 

He's always been a follower and a perfect follower he was, unquestioningly, totally reliable, loyal and excellent at what he did best, which was taking orders and keeping himself and others alive at any cost. Now - and within two eps - he's gone from being utterly and appropriately ruthless re: Noah (and I know I'm the only one who thinks that he and Carol couldn't magically discern that the guy who robbed them, set zombies on them and left them to die horrible deaths was really just a sweet, scared kid), to being an inexplicably mooshy peace-maker, butting in and stopping Rick from killing Evil Cop who was just in the process of choking him to death.

 

Being a second-in-command is a shot-calling role in cases like this, where he was the main reason Rick didn't go through with his plan. His emotions were at play here and it's exactly what the group didn't need.

 

I would have had less problem with his leaving Noah to die if it hadn't been because of emotional reasons, as his sparing Noah was also for emotional reasons. It's great that he's getting more in touch with his feelings, but he's let that overcome much of his instinct and judgment. It also leads to him shutting down when things don't go well (if it weren't for running into Rick/Michonne/Carl he might still be with the Claimers...).

[JackONeill]

To me, Daryl's at his best when he's got someone like Rick around, who he respects.  But when it was Daryl and Merle, or Daryl and Beth (even), Daryl has a tendency to subjugate himself.  He starts deferring and hemming and hawing.  But with Rick, he's not only a good second-in-command, but he can stand up to Rick and talk him down of the ledge, which happens often.

[NoWillToResist]

The hospital story makes less and less sense the more they show us.  Or maybe I just don't care, I don't know.  But they're apparently driving around using manpower and gas to run over and kidnap people only to chuck them less than a day later if they're not magically healed enough by then to do the moping[sic] or dishes?  And this episode they're wasting more resources to recapture the one orderly who got away?  Are his laundry skills really that spectacular?

 

Yeah, Slabtown answered "who took Beth" but that kind of raised about a billion different, worse questions, IMO. For all their talk about conservation, they waste resources left, right and centre. Beth gave that one cop grief about his dvd player but I don't recall her mentioning the doctor's music player. These people have their own offices rather than congregating in one room to save on electricity/candles etc. Ugh. And don't get me started on all the driving.

 

Speaking of bad writing..

 

One of the reasons why we don't know what Noah told Rick is because there was no scene with this happening.  In fact, we didn't have a scene relating what happened between the minute Daryl tells SOMEONE to come on out and the minute they started tearing up the church.  Scenes like the rest of the group finding out that BETH IS ALIVE????  What the flying fuck is that?  Rick and Carl were so close to Beth and we don't even get to see their reaction to the news that she's been found.  Once again, it's 'we all owe Carol'. They didn't even mention Beth's name. 

 

Yeah, I would have happily shortened some of the Maggie/Abe time to get the group's reaction to CONFIRMATION that Beth is alive and kicking and in need of an extraction. I'm not sure what's worse: having a cliffhanger which has no resolution for weeks on end, or having a cliffhanger whose resolution/reaction is entirely skipped over. Also, you're telling me that they drove all the way into Atlanta and THEN started planning their 'rescue'? Wouldn't that have been smart to plan BEFORE you entered the city??

 

I wonder if some of the focus on Carol is partly due to the immediacy of the Terminus stuff and partly because, unlike Beth, Carol is badly injured. Technically, Beth could try and attempt to escape all by her lonesome, but Carol cannot. She definitely needs help; she is completely defenseless and at the mercy of the hospital crew. I also have to ask: do we know if Noah was aware of the rapey times? Because I agree with those who find it hard to believe that our group wouldn't be in a big rush to get their ladies outta there. I just think it's possible that Noah, who was mainly stuck as Dawn's errand boy and general laundry guy, might not have been privy to that dark underbelly...?

 

Mootness aside, I totally agree with this. I think the hostage idea was colossally dumb, BUT....since they happened to come across several of her people, yes. Just leave them tied up (thoroughly, none of this half-arsed zip tie business) and go take the others out. Now you have less people to worry about once you're in the place. No trading necessary.

 

Good point. If you have just taken 3 of their 6(?) cops, you've just made the initial Plan A so much more feasible, with very minimal risk. Did Noah know that the main rapey cop had been killed? Because that's one less from even that number. Prisoner exchanges are just stupid, IMO.

 

I was also beyond annoyed that Noah fired off enough shots for the cops to figure out his location yet drew no walkers.

Edited November 25, 2014 by NoWillToResist

[Pete Martell]

It wasn't the phone calls that telegraphed that Rick was done.  It was the uncontrollable sobbing, in fetal position on the ground that made me suspect that perhaps Rick was a bit upset.  Seriously, I think this show often shows that everybody has their breaking point and I can understand this being Abraham's.  But damn it was annoying watching that big idiot kneel on the ground and spew crazy at anybody being nice to him.  I honestly thought that Maggie, in her frustration, would lash out at him about her own recent, unlivable pain and as the grief overtook her, his grief would overtake HIM and they'd have a somewhat bonding moment  A moment to match the bonding that just took place between Rosita and Glenn.  Not a love triangle, folks, a love rectangle!

 

 

Here's the thing.  This logic right here - that I agree with, BTW - is darn near word for word what Carl said when he shot that boy.  But everybody was mad at Carl and called him psycho and a miniGovernor and such.  I always understood why Carl shot that boy and Herschel's tattling and pontificating about it never sat right with me.  It is the truth of their lives right now.

 

I know some fans said Glenn was checking Rosita out. I didn't see it, but maybe I'm just desperately hoping this won't go to a love triangle.

 

I think the show sends very mixed messages about when you should or shouldn't kill or be ruthless. I was baffled when watching the Inside video for this episode, because TPTB essentially painted Rick being talked into not doing the plan and Tyreese convincing Sasha to open up as being wonderful, moving things, with only a throwaway mention that this led to Sasha being manipulated. I do agree with the idea of Tyreese helping Sasha grieve and process, but this was not the best time for him to do so. It just confused her and led to poor decision-making. And I have no idea if we're supposed to see it as a good thing that Rick was convinced to go with hope, because when does that ever work in this world? The last time they went with hope, a lunatic rapist escaped a storage facility and then the remnants of Terminus attacked them (and they were incredibly lucky that no one died as a result). 

 

I think the problem with Carl's actions in season 3 is that they were more about his psychological problems (needing to show how bad-ass he was) than they were about protecting the group. And that's why I didn't mind the hectoring from Hershel, especially since Rick did finally allow him to become more active again after he'd had a few months to be a child. It's just that I'm not entirely sure how we're supposed to feel about Rick's current mindset. Are we supposed to see him as a BAMF, making the tough calls? Or are we supposed to see him as being out of touch with humanity?

 

I think the show assumes viewers are more interested in humanity and hope and all the rest, when a lot of people are fine with the group being cold and hard.

For all their talk about conservation, they waste resources left, right and centre. Beth gave that one cop grief about his dvd player but I don't recall her mentioning the doctor's music player. 

 

Beth wasn't giving him grief because she was concerned about wasting power, she gave him grief because he was claiming keeping Carol alive was a waste of resources. 

 I'm not sure what's worse: having a cliffhanger which has no resolution for weeks on end, or having a cliffhanger whose resolution/reaction is entirely skipped over.

 

The resolution is going to get Beth and Carol. The reaction was skipped over, which I'm not sure was the best idea, but I don't think it took all that much away from the story. I just don't feel like this particular group would have much of a response. There would be a few tense stares and glances.

 

If it had been me, I would have shown Noah at the end of episode 3 and had him introduce himself to the group, with that leading to "Slabtown." I would have done that instead of Darly's "You can come out." 

 

I think the season generally made the right decision to have full episodes for Beth and GREATM and Daryl/Carol. It's just that now we're seeing the bad consequences. 

 

I wish they'd just changed a few things around here and there.

Edited November 25, 2014 by Pete Martell

[Timetoread]

I agree Pete Martell.  While I am not a big fan of Dictatorships, Micktatorships, or RICKtatorships, I tire of people thinking that in order to be a thinking, rational, and loving individual that you must play every move from defense.  I tend to trust Rick's instincts because he was a cop.  It doesn't necessarily make him smart or nice or even always fair, but his was a job that required making quick judgments about who you are dealing with because judging wrong may cost you your life.  Left to his own instincts, Rick judges quickly and handles the problem with frightening and efficient brutality.  Honestly I think if he had been better armed, Rick would have dealt with Joe and Boys right then and there.  I think all the saving people has given a few of them Messaiah Complexes, but Rick seems to know (because of what he's had to do) that the only people that are still surviving now are either lucky parasites, like Eugene, luckier ignoramuses like Tara and PeePee or brutal killers.  It is not safe to give the benefit of the doubt.

[Timetoread]

I think the problem with Carl's actions in season 3 is that they were more about his psychological problems (needing to show how bad-ass he was) than they were about protecting the group.

 

I didn't see that he was needing to show how bad-ass he was, I saw him having a real struggle with the consequences of showing mercy and not acting.  I forgave him completely because he likened his own inaction being the cause of Dale's death and his father's inaction with Andrew being the cause of his mother's death.  That's a LOT for kid to process.  Add to it that while we grownups viewed the kid with the gun as a KID, he was older and bigger than Carl who I'm sure processed him as simply a DUDE with a gun.  As for Hershel, I found him annoying because I kept asking that if he was so righteous why he didn't put himself between the stranger (who'd just come to kill them) and the 10 year old.  In the moment, Hershel did nothing so I didn't have much patience with his holier than thou bullcrap after the fact.

 

As for Rick, I don't know what TPTB want us to feel but I don't feel that Rick is all the way gone at all.  He's still basically a family man, he protects his people and he listens to them, though he probably shouldn't.  The only thing that's changed is that he seems to be over believing that there is something redeemable in every person they encounter.  Not so.

Edited November 25, 2014 by Timetoread

[BrokenRemote]

I think the thing with Maggie and the ladder wasn't filler.  It was to illustrate that Abraham would just sit there while she was obviously struggling with the ladder, and that of all of them, she is perhaps the most compassionate.  Now, whether everyone cares about those things, obviously mileage may vary, but I didn't see it as just looking for a way to kill 2 minutes (I don't think it was anywhere near 10...).

 

Oh, also, Abraham knocking the water away and spilling it?  As scarce as drinkable water is for them that should be an offense that gets you hung up from your ankles in a tree with a sign that says "Main Course" on it for the walkers that can read.

Edited November 25, 2014 by BrokenRemote

[The Mighty Peanut]

I know this isn't episode specific but someone in the live chat mentioned the bad dad jokes memes and I couldn't not share. 

 

[JackONeill]

I, too, have never felt that Rick is completely nutso.  And I, too, would rather follow him than anyone else - good or bad - who's been introduced on the show.  He's got instincts, and he's not afraid of using them.  True, they aren't always right.  But he's got them.

[AngelaHunter]

Just this:

 

[NoWillToResist]

1. Beth wasn't giving him grief because she was concerned about wasting power, she gave him grief because he was claiming keeping Carol alive was a waste of resources. 

 

2. The resolution is going to get Beth and Carol. The reaction was skipped over, which I'm not sure was the best idea, but I don't think it took all that much away from the story. I just don't feel like this particular group would have much of a response. There would be a few tense stares and glances.

 

1. Oh, I knew why she was giving the guy grief; my point was that they all waste resources while claiming that they need to conserve them.

 

2. I still think that even a brief scene, or those interspersed 5/10 second flashbacks that this show loves so much would have been fine. I mean, why couldn't we have seen the church stuff scaled down and our people flashing back to that while en route to Atlanta?

 

Hell, I don't even really care about Beth but the utter lack of narrative interest in her just grates. Rick and the group were about to be informed that (A) Beth was alive, (B) Beth was being held captive by a new group holed up in a hospital in Atlanta, and ( C) that Carol was injured by them and then taken. And TPTB didn't think I'd like to see everyone's initial reaction to that?

 

Instead, we catch up to them dismantling the church and then driving all the way to Atlanta before they start discussing their rescue plan. It's just awful story telling. I realize this happens all the time in tv (when discussions are had WAY later despite the characters being around each other for hours since the initial reveal) but it still grates.

 

I also cannot fathom why Rick would leave his two kids with Gabriel, a man he has flat-out stated he does not trust. I'm particularly concerned because he doesn't appear to have shared that rather pertinent information with the sole adult left in charge of protecting his kids.

Edited November 25, 2014 by NoWillToResist

[Timetoread]

I also cannot fathom why Rick would leave his two kids with Gabriel, a man he has flat-out stated he does not trust. I'm particularly concerned because he doesn't appear to have shared that rather pertinent information with the sole adult left in charge of protecting his kids.

 

He and Michonne see eye to eye so he probably doesn't even NEED to say it to her, but she's seen him with Gabriel and knows his feeling about him and he did tell Carl that he doesn't trust him.  I am trying to say this without shipping... Rick doesn't trust easily and he wouldn't have left Michonne there unless he was 100% sure of her and he is.

[NoWillToResist]

He and Michonne see eye to eye so he probably doesn't even NEED to say it to her, but she's seen him with Gabriel and knows his feeling about him and he did tell Carl that he doesn't trust him.  I am trying to say this without shipping... Rick doesn't trust easily and he wouldn't have left Michonne there unless he was 100% sure of her and he is.

 

Oh, I have complete faith in his trust in Michonne; I'm just not sure, based on Michonne's behaviour, that she is also as leery of Gabe.

 

Either she's keeping that shit close to her chest, or she believes he is just a sweet, naive, mild-mannered priest. She's been very nice and gentle with him; I've seen no hint of suspicion or mistrust from her, not even once Gabe has turned away. I can't understand why she didn't question why he only opened the door about three inches after his 'nap' to talk to her. Has she never seen a movie? If someone is talking to you through a three inch gap, they are hiding something/someone from you.

 

I'm still struggling to figure out how Michonne didn't hear the ripping up of the floorboards. That church must have killer soundproofing (except for the cries of babies)...

Edited November 25, 2014 by NoWillToResist

[BrokenRemote]

1. Oh, I knew why she was giving the guy grief; my point was that they all waste resources while claiming that they need to conserve them.

 

2. I still think that even a brief scene, or those interspersed 5/10 second flashbacks that this show loves so much would have been fine. I mean, why couldn't we have seen the church stuff scaled down and our people flashing back to that while en route to Atlanta?

 

Hell, I don't even really care about Beth but the utter lack of narrative interest in her just grates. Rick and the group were about to be informed that (A) Beth was alive, (B) Beth was being held captive by a new group holed up in a hospital in Atlanta, and ( C) that Carol was injured by them and then taken. And TPTB didn't think I'd like to see everyone's initial reaction to that?

 

Instead, we catch up to them dismantling the church and then driving all the way to Atlanta before they start discussing their rescue plan. It's just awful story telling. I realize this happens all the time in tv (when discussions are had WAY later despite the characters being around each other for hours since the initial reveal) but it still grates.

 

I also cannot fathom why Rick would leave his two kids with Gabriel, a man he has flat-out stated he does not trust. I'm particularly concerned because he doesn't appear to have shared that rather pertinent information with the sole adult left in charge of protecting his kids.

That actually explains even more why Rick left Michonne.  I'd forgotten his whole speech to Gabriel and how much he didn't trust him.  It makes senses he'd leave someone he was sure wouldn't hesitate, even to kill a preacher, if the family were endangered.

Oh, I have complete faith in his trust in Michonne; I'm just not sure, based on Michonne's behaviour, that she is also as leery of Gabe.

 

Either she's keeping that shit close to her chest, or she believes he is just a sweet, naive, mild-mannered priest. She's been very nice and gentle with him; I've seen no hint of suspicion or mistrust from her, not even once Gabe has turned away. I can't understand why she didn't question why he only opened the door about three inches after his 'nap' to talk to her. Has she never seen a movie? If someone is talking to you through a three inch gap, they are hiding something/someone from you.

 

I'm still struggling to figure out how Michonne didn't hear the ripping up of the floorboards. That church must have killer soundproofing (except for the cries of babies)...

 

I kind of thought Michonne's knocking on the door with her wary 'Are you ok?' looked like a veiled 'Cause you're acting like a freaking lunatic, so....'