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The Hunger Games Series


Janet Snakehole
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I hope this okay to start, and figured I would since I brought it up in the Unpopular Opinions thread.

Out of all the YA series in the 2000s, this one is my favorite. I have a soft spot for dystopia to begin with, and I loved all of the world building in it. I liked that Katniss is a believable character, she starts out strong and sort of stoic, but you see the effects that all the events had on her. She is also unlikeable in some ways, but I still rooted for her.

Also loved Peeta. I really enjoyed seeing a male character being allowed to be the more sensitive, caring, and nurturing character.

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WARNING: Spoilers. 

 

 

Yay! I'm happy to see this finally getting its own thread. I'm a sucker for  YA fiction, dystopia, and flawed, but heroic heroines, so it's sort of a no brainier that I loved this series. What I liked most was probably how she went about the world building. Like, I really liked that in the first series we get just a "regular" Hunger Games that introduced us to the basic horrors of things like children murdering each other to survive the arena. While,   Katniss as our hero is the main person to defy the the nature of the Games (but certainly, not the only one-- also Peeta, Rue, and Thresh). But then, the second book and Quarter Quell give us the chance to learn more about the Games and their history and give us an idea of how complexly disturbing being a life-long victor can actually be. I mean,  Haymitch gave us some hint of that already, but  still my favorite bit from that book is probably when the tribunes all find different and subtle ways to defy Snow when talking to Ceaser Flickerman and when they all hold hands for that moment as an act of defiance. Also, you have Cinna's creating the mocking jay dress, Peeta painting a mural of Rue when he's meant to impress the judges, and naturally the riots sparking up all over the districts. Of course, the violence that Katniss witnesses both when old man in District 11 is shot and when Cinna was taken as she is going into the arena were horrifying.  Even still though, I think Collins does a great job showing how even a place like Panem, it especially/still takes very little to spark resistance in the heart of people. 

I honestly really liked how she structured the series. Though, to be perfectly honest, save for the ending, I'm a bit fuzzy about the details of the last book. Though, I appreciated how dark Collins was willing to go. It was horribly sad that Prim was killed, but I think it was the right decision. Also, I liked that Peeta and Katniss got to be  together but still very much lived with the aftermath of the war and Katniss suffered with PTSD.  I thought it was heartbreaking and interesting how Katniss feared for her children's innocence. Honestly, the series ended on the perfect note I thought.

Edited by Beezel
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I really enjoyed these books and could not put them down. They are suppose to be YA but I am 72, and I loved them. MY doctor also loved them. I don't know any YA who read them. Everyone I know who has read them and enjoyed them were older. The first one belonged to someone I picked it up, and I couldn't put it down and bought the rest .SC wrote ther characters so real, they jumped off the pages. .So far the movie makers haven't ruined them .

Edited by testardo
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Surprised this thread hasn't had more comments, especially because the thread about the latest movie is fairly active. I absolutely loved the series but I have to say, I had to do a re-read of all the books to truly appreciate all of them and pick up so many interesting things Suzanne Collins added in the entire series (at this point by the way I've read THG at least 3 times, Catching Fire 3 times and MockingJay twice). But the thing I really want to comment on is Peeta's character.

 

Okay, so full disclosure, I loved Peeta. Like he might have been my favorite character even more so than Katniss after I read THG and I honestly didn't even really care if Katniss ended up with Gale but I just really wanted more than anything, for Peeta to live. That's why I sped through MockingJay the first time, just wanting to know what happened to him and then had to read it again to get a better appreciation for it. 

 

With regard to Peeta, the one thing that's always bothered me in the fandom, are the comments about him being "weak" and "soft" and that Katniss was always having to save him, and particularly from Gale fans, the suggestion that he wasn't as manly as Gale. This view always bothered me not just because I adored Peeta and because it's so gender normative/bias with what a "real man" should act like but honestly, because in my opinion, Peeta was one of the strongest characters in the books. I think, and this was sort of a theme throughout the series about how eloquent and good at speeches he was, that strength isn't always about brute force and raging and being angry. 

 

Peeta in my opinion helped Katniss in the Games as much as she helped him, helping to orchestrate the star-crossed lovers storyline, sticking close to the Careers and aligning with them so he could try to steer them away from her, not to mention getting almost mortally wounded by Cato saving her. There was also the fact that he managed to keep himself alive a pretty decent time before Katniss ever found him and that was with Haymitch not doing a thing for him with sponsors. More than that, there were a few tidbits sprinkled in that suggested his home life was not so great despite living in the Town. I liked the part of THG when Katniss found out that contrary to what she believed, he was not eating so well just because his dad owned the bakery and instead they had to make do with the crappy, stale food because all the good stuff had to be sold for money

 

His mother was seemingly a raging and abusive bitch (even Katniss refers to her as a witch in Catching Fire), his dad though sweet seemed like a weak man too afraid to stand up to his horrible wife and he didn't seem particularly close to his brothers. But even still, they were his family for better or worse and they all died when District 12 got destroyed. So in one fell swoop he lost his whole family. Then just like Katniss, he had to survive the Games twice with all the horrors that held, not to mention losing his leg after the first Games. And then he was captured, made into a POW and tortured and ultimately brainwashed until he didn't know what was real and not.

 

And despite all that, and for me that's what most makes Peeta anything but weak, is that through it all, he somehow maintained his humanity. Even after the torture he suffered at the Capitol, the brainwashing that turned him into a violent, angry and trained  killer, when it was all said and done, he was still one of the ones against another Games and rightly pointed out that using violence and brutality to destroy those who hurt them made them no better. I loved that and it's also why, despite the fact that some will forever debate the ending and Katniss supposedly "settling", I totally bought what Collins wrote as Katniss realization and reason for loving Peeta. Especially with all they'd been through, that totally rang true to me.

Edited by truthaboutluv
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And for me the abuse of Peeta is in book 3 is what really ruined the books for me, which is why I haven't picked them up again (and am not watching the movies). It felt like Collins gave me what i wanted in a - be careful what you wish for way - and she really hurt him before she'd give him a crumb. I just don't think the last book is as good as the first two (after we waited - like 2 years? for it) and if I don't like the ending the whole series is ruined for me. So while I think the first book stands well as a book, I don't like the trilogy. 

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I get what you're saying but funny enough, despite the fact that I adored Peeta, I was actually okay with what happened in MockingJay. I think among all the other themes of the series, Collins (who I believe was an army brat) also focused heavily on the harsh realities of war and what it does to people and I think MockingJay more than any of the books did that - Katniss ultimately being a pawn to Coin who although she was seemingly fighting for the "right" side was not that different than Snow in her willingness to sacrifice some innocent people for the cause; Gale, willing to kill some innocent people as well if it serviced their ultimate goal and believing everything he and they did was right because they were fighting against the Capitol; Prim being an innocent casualty and of course Peeta being tortured. 

 

And again, while I totally get that it wasn't some people's cup of tea, I was fine with the not so happy, shiny ending. That instead Collins showed how none of these people were ever the same again or ever would be the same again and that they would permanently carry these scars with them. However, and again ymmv, the fact that they were able to come out of the other side and find not just some peace but happiness and love with each other, was very beautiful and in my opinion, probably the most powerful part of story. They were broken yes but not destroyed because they still found each other despite all the odds not being in their favor - being pitted against each other in the Games, Peeta being hijacked, Katniss losing Prim, etc.

Edited by truthaboutluv
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There was only one thing I didn't like in Mockingjay. I didn't like Katniss voting to have the children of the higher ups in the Capitol participate in their own Hunger Games. I wonder, since Coin was killed, did they not happen. I guess I saw her point because of Prim, but I have such a hard time believing she would do that to others knowing how horrific it was. Probably because of the movie humanizing Snow's granddaughter, I had such a hard time envisioning her in the games. 

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That part of the book is a little ambiguous in my opinion and I actually am interested if there is any interview where Suzanne Collins talks about it because when I read the book, honestly, I always interpreted it as Katniss voted yes as a way to lull Coin further into a false sense of confidence knowing she would kill her. I also feel like that, the suggestion of another Games, was the last bit of motivation she got to prove to her that Coin really was no better than Snow and further convince her that she needed to kill her. I also always had the impression Haymitch  may have a sense of what Katniss was thinking when he voted with her.

 

I'm also pretty certain that they never had a Games with the Capitol's children. If they had it would have been referenced I'm sure and after Katniss kills Coin, she's only in a solitude for maybe a week or so until Haymitch and Plutarch come to bring her back to District 12 and according to Plutarch all that happened was her trial during that period. Also, Plutarch made some comment about the country being a happy place right now where they all agree the recent horrors should not be repeated but who knew how long that would last. So my guess is the idea of a Hunger Games for the Capitol's children got squashed once Katniss killed Coin.

Edited by truthaboutluv
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That part of the book is a little ambiguous in my opinion and I actually am interested if there is any interview where Suzanne Collins talks about it because when I read the book, honestly, I always interpreted it as Katniss voted yes as a way to lull Coin further into a false sense of confidence knowing she would kill her. I also feel like that, the suggestion of another Games, was the last bit of motivation she got to prove to her that Coin really was no better than Snow and further convince her that she needed to kill her. I also always had the impression Haymitch  may have a sense of what Katniss was thinking when he voted with her.

 

I'm also pretty certain that they never had a Games with the Capitol's children. If they had it would have been referenced I'm sure and after Katniss kills Coin, she's only in a solitude for maybe a week or so until Haymitch and Plutarch come to bring her back to District 12 and according to Plutarch all that happened was her trial during that period. Also, Plutarch made some comment about the country being a happy place right now where they all agree the recent horrors should not be repeated but who knew how long that would last. So my guess is the idea of a Hunger Games for the Capitol's children got squashed once Katniss killed Coin.

Interesting. I never got the impression Katniss knew she was going to kill Coin until the very moment when she did. 

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Well like I said, I do think it was kind of ambiguous so it's entirely possible your interpretation is correct. Also, I do think it is entirely possible that Katniss was in so much pain over Prim's death that in that moment when they brought up another Games with the Capitol's children, she could have genuinely agreed to it but later realized how awful all these people were. I do remember her thinking at some point in MockingJay (though can't remember if it was after the war or before) how Peeta was right and maybe it would be best if they all destroyed each other and some better species took over. 

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Well like I said, I do think it was kind of ambiguous so it's entirely possible your interpretation is correct. Also, I do think it is entirely possible that Katniss was in so much pain over Prim's death that in that moment when they brought up another Games with the Capitol's children, she could have genuinely agreed to it but later realized how awful all these people were.

 

I wasn't criticizing your interpretation.  I like reading other people's interpretations of various scenes and novels! It never would have dawned on me that Katniss had other plans burbling in her mind.  

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I think among all the other themes of the series, Collins (who I believe was an army brat)

She was an Air Force brat. You ought to read her children's book Year Of The Jungle. It's about her father's tour of duty in Vietnam when she was a little girl. It mentions her father zoning out occasionally. I immediately thought of the end of Mockingjay.

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I wasn't criticizing your interpretation.

 

 

Oh I didn't think you were. I was actually just saying your interpretation just further shows how sort of ambiguous it was because we each had a different interpretation reading it. 

 

She was an Air Force brat. You ought to read her children's book Year Of The Jungle. It's about her father's tour of duty in Vietnam when she was a little girl. It mentions her father zoning out occasionally. I immediately thought of the end of Mockingjay.

 

 

Thanks for the clarification and I will definitely check out the book. Interesting about the zoning out...reminds me of how JK Rowling's inspiration for the dementors in the Harry Potter universe was her experience with depression. 

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Glad to see this topic, I read the series after watching the first Hunger Games movie and I have to admit that Peeta is also my favorite character, but I like him just based on the movie version alone.  I have never seen him as weak or as a damsel in distress, yes he wasn't the typical macho man but his strength was manifested in so many other ways. I also flew threw Mockingjay to see what happened to his character.

 

Initially I didn't like Mockingjay, however after re-reading the book I came to appreciate the fact that Collin's made an effort to show the effects on war on this 17 year old girl. No matter how strong and self assured Katniss was in the Hunger Games, it makes sense that going through 2 arenas would affect her severely, I appreciated the fact that she had PTSD and had these lapses.  No one who went through the games came through without issue, even gentle Peeta had nightmares.

 

  I also like how Collins wrote the change in the friendship between Katniss and Gale and I saw both their sides.  Gale's view of the Capitol and it's citizens made perfect sense while Katniss having some compassion for some Capitol citizen also made sense since she had been there twice and knew there was good there such as Cinna.  It also made sense that Katniss and Peeta would grow closer in the second book given their shared experiences, that closeness helped Katniss deal with her trauma and we see the effect of Peeta's absence in Mockingjay where she literally is broken without him around to anchor her. 

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Resurrecting this thread to see if anyone has read The Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes.  I had read some concerns online about how it will humanize Snow and I loved the way it gave a lot of history on the games and Snow but didn't make you feel sorry for him. It definitely wasn't set to make Snow seem a sympathetic character who had such a hard life it's no wonder he turned out like he did. 

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(edited)
2 hours ago, joanne3482 said:

Resurrecting this thread to see if anyone has read The Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes.  I had read some concerns online about how it will humanize Snow and I loved the way it gave a lot of history on the games and Snow but didn't make you feel sorry for him. It definitely wasn't set to make Snow seem a sympathetic character who had such a hard life it's no wonder he turned out like he did. 

Absolutely. A couple of people (including myself) briefly discussed it in the What Are You Reading forum, but I would love to really get into an in-depth discussion about it! I just watched a youtube last night from a woman who reread the original series and then Ballad and did a 30+ minute discussion on each, and then I spent all night thinking about it LOL. Planning on rereading it soon now that I've been thinking on it for a while.

Edited by Taryn74
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I just listened to the audio books of the original 3 (I read the originals years ago but have gotten into audiobooks a lot more due to COVID).  It gives them so much more flavor. It makes the whole Mockingjay concept such a slap in the face to Snow. The thing he hates most is now the symbol of rebellion and freedom for Panem. 

Having revisited the books, I also did start to wonder about the rest of the world.  What's going on in Europe or Africa while this whole situation is playing out in North America... for that matter what about Canada, Mexico, Latin America and South America.  

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1 hour ago, joanne3482 said:

Having revisited the books, I also did start to wonder about the rest of the world.  What's going on in Europe or Africa while this whole situation is playing out in North America... for that matter what about Canada, Mexico, Latin America and South America.  

Well, south Canada and north Mexico at least are both part of Panem, it's not like the US alone turned into Panem. But yeah, I wonder about the other continents too. Whatever happened to destroy North America had to have impacted the rest of the world, too, right?

SPOILERS FOR THE BALLAD OF SONGBIRDS AND SNAKES:

The thing that's fascinating me the most right now is the difference between the way Tigris and Snow turned out. Reading the original trilogy, I never in a thousand years would have guessed that they were related, much less were as close as they were. It's a very interesting study to think about their personalities and the different choices they made over their lives, and why they made those choices. I think back to Tigris first only passively helping Katniss and the others when they came to her shop by allowing them to hide in her basement, but then when Katniss offered her the can of salmon as a thank you for helping them (perhaps triggering the memory of Tigris, Coryo, and Grandma'am's "feast" of salmon and turkey) it was like a switch was flipped and Tigris decided to actively help them by redoing their makeup, giving them Capitol clothes, hiding their weapons, etc. There's a lot to unpack there when you really start to think it through.

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I've just finished this. I was enjoying it at first, but not the last third of it. I knew that Snow would survive, obviously, but he is so annoying, so pompous. 

Spoiler

Poor Sejanus! And I wonder what happened to Lucy. Hopefully she made it to District 13. I can't remember if she's ever mentioned. I wondered how they would swing Hamish being the only victor for District 12, and that's how they did it: Gaul wiped it all, because of the cheating. 

 

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I thought it was a little much, that Lucy came up with the songs *and* the name Katniss. 

I've just googled, and apparently there was a reference to another victor in the Hunger Games (for 12), but Katniss didn't know enough about them. I wonder if she's her grandmother, on her father's side. 

Edited by Anela
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I'm glad I checked in here.  I finished Ballad a few days ago, and can't seem to get it out of my head.  I posted the following on another discussion board, but didn't get much response out of it other than "Yeah, I agree...."

I liked it.  It explains many things that confused me about the whole Panem political makeup, history, and hatred between the Capitol and the Districts.  You could see those roots, and how the Hunger Games developed into the spectacle we know from the series.  There's plenty of hardship and blame to go around.  

The protagonist is a young teenage Coriolanus Snow, and Suzanne Collins actually makes you feel some sympathy for and root for this character who grows into the President Snow we love to loathe.  You see the conflicts and choices that put his feet on that path.  In particular, you see why he was predestined to hate Katniss Everdeen as much as he did.  

It isn't an easy book, but then again, neither were the others.  The dystopia is strong in this series, and this prequel brings it in spades.  

Even though you know where young Coriolanus ends up, there remains a great deal of suspense of "will he, won't he?" up to the end.  Which....to be honest....the ending seemed quite abrupt, but maybe that was the point: his choice was made, and that's it.  The epilogue, though, showed us how that seemingly abrupt choice set the cement that became the foundation of our despised President Snow.

 

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20 hours ago, HurricaneVal said:

I finished Ballad a few days ago, and can't seem to get it out of my head.

I read it back after it first came out, and haven't been able to find the time to re-read it yet, but it's still in my head often. Collins is such a powerful writer that way.

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I'm currently re-reading the series, in the middle of Catching Fire (and I'll be getting to Ballads after that so I'll be able to have a more in-depth discussion soon, @HurricaneVal) and I can't believe I never picked up on the fact that Snow must have the "house" by the lake bugged. The one that Katniss used to go to with her father as a child when she would swim and they would dig for katniss roots and hunt duck. It bothered me a great deal reading Ballads when I realized it was a rendezvous point for Snow and Lucy Gray, it felt like such a violation that he was ever there even though obviously that was decades before Katniss was born, but even then I didn't connect the dots that Snow must have had it bugged after everything that happened with Lucy. But it's after Katniss takes Gale there for the first time that he is whipped by the new Head Peacekeeper for poaching (and the new Head arrived that very day, probably while Katniss and Gale were still at the lake) and then as soon as Katniss runs into Bonnie and Twill from District 8 and finds out info about their uprising, she comes back to find the electric fence turned on and Peacekeepers waiting inside her home. I don't think Snow literally has cameras everywhere in the Districts (although I do believe the Capitol uses the mockingjays to continue to spy to a certain degree on the Districts without their knowledge -- I'll get into that when discussing Ballads) but he does have key places bugged, probably with cameras. 

Suzanne Collins is SO good at making it feel like the series is set during the Depression era by telling the story from the view of a District citizen, that I literally forget the Capitol has very high tech means of communication and travel, so it's always a surprise that Snow is able to communicate in real time with his people in the Districts and take immediate action when necessary. These books are amazing. I believe they should be taught in middle/high school, I really do.

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I just got to the point in Catching Fire where the Quarter Quell is announced. It occurred to me how difficult it must be for Mrs. Everdeen to be around Haymitch, knowing that he survived the Games which killed her best friend.

For that matter, wow what an unintentional slap in the face Gale's comment to Madge (back before the first reaping) must have been. Her mother's twin sister was merchant class and her name was still drawn and she died in the Games. It speaks a lot to Madge's character that she didn't give even a hint of how personally hurtful that comment must have been.

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Getting close to the end of Mockingjay now. Reading through this time, knowing what Snow's history is like, gives me a clearer picture of how much he must have really hated Katniss and Peeta both. Both of them were everything as a person that Snow wasn't. Time and time again he threw them into positions where they would "have no choice" but to try to kill each other, and each time they figured another way out or proved that they would rather both die than give him the satisfaction. Snow wasn't strong enough to put Lucy's life over his own, even when he only suspected her of planning to betray him, but Katniss and Peeta each put the other's life over their own, every time. (And other characters as well, but the focus is on the two of them since they were the "romantic couple" comparable to Snow and Lucy.)

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Finished Mockingjay last night, and (unsurprisingly) cried my eyes out. This story guts me in a way not much else does.

Before I move onto Ballads, I'm just curious what everyone thinks about the movie adaptations? I just watched a youtube where the person absolutely hated the movies and felt they were shallow and too different from the books to be taken seriously. I feel the opposite. Yes there are differences that grate (such as Madge not being included at all when her family's history was IMO so important, also the movies don't really get into Katniss' descent into sheer madness for a while after she returns to District 12 at the end of Mockingjay) and scenes I wish would have been included which weren't, but I feel the movies have an important role to play in understanding the whole picture of everything going on. Mostly because with the books being exclusively from Katniss' point of view (which is brilliant and puts the reader smack dab in the middle of the story the way not much else could) there are things going on elsewhere that she simply has no idea about but we are privy to thanks to the movies. We get confirmation of some things she suspects but doesn't ever find out for sure, and perhaps most importantly we see times where she was simply wrong about something. It's a ballsy move for Collins to have the heroine of the story not always be able to figure everything out and not always be right, because that is real.

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Well, since you asked... :)

I really enjoyed the first movie. As you said, the movies allowed us to see beyond Katniss' scope into the rest of the world, which really deepened the entire story. The fact that this movie was just a little throwaway in Hollywood's eyes meshed so well with Katniss as the underdog from a crap district - there's a strange symbiosis between THG book and movie that are just.. magic.

I enjoyed the second movie as well, though in a different way. CF may be my favorite of the books (it bounces between THG and CF, whichever one I'm reading at the time, lol) so I was really curious to see how the movie would turn out. And it's interesting, because Hollywood obviously knew they had a moneymaker by the time it came to adapting CF, and I can see the difference on screen, in how this book is adapted compared to the first. Bigger budget, more stars, bigger spectacle. And yet it works. Because this is exactly what Katniss and Peeta experience in CF - their world has expanded, there is far more at stake, and they're now on a bigger stage than they ever could have even imagined. So, again, the vibe between book and movie for CF are strangely parallel, which only elevates the story for me. And, for the life of me, I could not get a mental picture of how the island was laid out in the QQ, so the visuals of the movie were first time I really understood what the heck Collins was going for, lol.

I'll be honest, MJ is by far my least favorite book. I found Finnick and Johanna's character growth and deepened friendships with Katniss the most interesting parts, and sadly I felt MJ1 movie totally skipped over that. I never even saw the second MJ movie, so I can't speak to that one - I will someday, really, but considering it's (in my mind) The Part of the Story Where Everyone I Like Dies, I'm not in a big hurry. The casting for the Capitol film crew and the district 13 gang was excellent, which only makes me less interested in watching most of them die. When I saw MJ1 I hoped that the nature of film compared to the written word would even out the basic story considering that Katniss spends so much of the story out of her gourd, so to speak. MJ was the first book where I felt that the tight POV from Katniss was a detriment to the story - she's not with it for such large chunks of time, so how can we get the story if our only narrator is out of commission? MJ1 did smooth out this issue somewhat, but not as much as I'd hoped. Though there were some fantastic scenes that still give me chills to think about - Katniss singing 'Hanging Tree', rebels blowing the dam, the lumberjacks from Johanna's district dropping out of the trees onto the Peacekeepers - overall MJ is still my least favorite, both book and movie(s). (And again, I know it's not completely fair to judge without having seen MJ2, and I won't get started on the fact that it really didn't need to be split into two movies, but anyway).

So, there you have it, my two cents. Probably more like three cents looking over the length of this post. :)

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12 hours ago, Taryn74 said:

Finished Mockingjay last night, and (unsurprisingly) cried my eyes out. This story guts me in a way not much else does.

Before I move onto Ballads, I'm just curious what everyone thinks about the movie adaptations? I just watched a youtube where the person absolutely hated the movies and felt they were shallow and too different from the books to be taken seriously. I feel the opposite. Yes there are differences that grate (such as Madge not being included at all when her family's history was IMO so important, also the movies don't really get into Katniss' descent into sheer madness for a while after she returns to District 12 at the end of Mockingjay) and scenes I wish would have been included which weren't, but I feel the movies have an important role to play in understanding the whole picture of everything going on. Mostly because with the books being exclusively from Katniss' point of view (which is brilliant and puts the reader smack dab in the middle of the story the way not much else could) there are things going on elsewhere that she simply has no idea about but we are privy to thanks to the movies. We get confirmation of some things she suspects but doesn't ever find out for sure, and perhaps most importantly we see times where she was simply wrong about something. It's a ballsy move for Collins to have the heroine of the story not always be able to figure everything out and not always be right, because that is real.

The total miscasting of Peeta really hurt my enjoyment of the movies. Every time he was on screen, that was all I could see. 

Edited by GaT
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5 hours ago, Maelstrom said:

Though there were some fantastic scenes that still give me chills to think about - Katniss singing 'Hanging Tree', rebels blowing the dam, the lumberjacks from Johanna's district dropping out of the trees onto the Peacekeepers

Those were amazing scenes and some that I think of often as well, especially the rebels blowing the dam. I don't know why that one affects me visually so much, but damn. It's just so powerful. Maybe it's because since the entirety of Panem depends on the dam for electricity, it makes it feel like such a strong act of war? I don't know. I plan on rewatching all of the movies just to get a feel of the complete story again, once I'm finished with Ballads. (Just started it today.) Another scene that comes to mind is when Snow's granddaughter quietly and sadly removes the braid from her hair while he makes the announcement that any sign of allegiance to Katniss Everdeen or the rebels is strictly forbidden. It makes me sad for her that she was allowed to maintain a bit of childish innocence up until then, but that was now being taken away from her. I also love the way Finnick says "Let the seventy-sixth Hunger Games begin" when they are looking at the holo with all the active pods lit up.

Oh, and the scene from CF with the jabberjays is very chilling as well, with Katniss covering her ears and screaming and even her scream is drowned out by the birds.

 

5 hours ago, Maelstrom said:

So, again, the vibe between book and movie for CF are strangely parallel, which only elevates the story for me.

Oh, what great observations about the movie budget echoing Katniss and Peeta's growth as celebrities! I love that.

 

Some random thoughts while things are fresh on my mind -- Buttercup finding his way back to Twelve only to find that Prim is dead........guh. Such a punch in the gut. Especially the way he and Katniss just "scream" at each other for a while until she passes out with grief and wakes to find him standing guard over her, the way he used to do for Prim. Excuse me while I go sob for a moment.

Katniss getting confirmation that Madge and her family are all dead. 😞 I hope Madge's mom is finally at peace now.

Gale not knowing if the bomb which killed Prim was his or not, but accepting that it might have been and that Katniss will never be able to forgive him. 😞

Katniss had to have spent weeks - if not months - in that chair (only getting up to go to the bathroom and sponge herself off every once in a while) right? By the time she roused herself back to life her hair was matted into knots and her clothes were glued to her skin. I think it speaks a lot to Greasy Sae's character that she came in took care of Katniss and allowed her the time she needed to fully grieve, even in that horrible condition, without making her feel weak or useless.

Peeta digging up and replanting the primrose bushes. Guuuuuhhhh.

After getting backstory on Snow, I think his laughter when Katniss killed Coin instead of him was as much a delight that she finally killed an "ally" of hers (the way he killed Lucy) as it was his sense of vengeful satisfaction that Coin was being denied the power she thought was finally hers.

I remember discussion (hopefully not on here, I'm not out to hurt anyone's feelings LOL) that Peeta was wrong to "pressure" Katniss to have children, since she adamantly did not want them. Excuse me while I go roll my eyes out of my head. She didn't want children because she would never be able to feel that they were safe, not because she wanted to advance her career or some other sort of modern reason. They were trying to rebuild a population which had been decimated by war. Remaining childless is a luxury few people can afford in that sort of situation. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh.

 

7 minutes ago, GaT said:

The total miscasting of Peeta really hurt my enjoyment of the movies. Every time he wason screen, that was all I could see. 

Was it just his appearance that you feel was miscasting? Because aside from the brown eyes, I thought Josh Hutcherson make a perfect Peeta. I really can't think of any character I felt was miscast, actually. (I do wish Katniss' prep team would have had more of a role onscreen, though. Did they even have Octavia, or was it just Flavius and Venia? I can't remember right now.)

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1 hour ago, Taryn74 said:

Was it just his appearance that you feel was miscasting? Because aside from the brown eyes, I thought Josh Hutcherson make a perfect Peeta. I really can't think of any character I felt was miscast, actually. (I do wish Katniss' prep team would have had more of a role onscreen, though. Did they even have Octavia, or was it just Flavius and Venia? I can't remember right now.)

Absolutely his appearance. Josh is shorter than Jennifer and he's supposed to be a big guy, big enough to haul big sacks of flour & Josh isn't. They spent a whole lot of the movie trying to hide that fact. Also, while I think he's an OK looking guy, they cast Liam Hemsworth (who is the correct height) as Gale. They needed to cast someone a lot more ordinary looking because I don't know anybody who would pick Josh or Liam looks wise.

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2 hours ago, Taryn74 said:

I remember discussion (hopefully not on here, I'm not out to hurt anyone's feelings LOL) that Peeta was wrong to "pressure" Katniss to have children, since she adamantly did not want them. Excuse me while I go roll my eyes out of my head. She didn't want children because she would never be able to feel that they were safe, not because she wanted to advance her career or some other sort of modern reason. They were trying to rebuild a population which had been decimated by war. Remaining childless is a luxury few people can afford in that sort of situation. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh.

This is the one part of the series that I wish the publisher had made Collins be more explicit. I always saw Katniss' position on not having children to be twofold:

1) she was afraid of bringing children into this world

2) it was her own, unconscious, way of rebelling against the Capital.

Regarding point 1, who can blame her? She knows that the children of victors have been purposefully reaped to remind their parents to stay in line and her own kids would not only get reaped but would no doubt be targeted for the worst deaths as additional punishment for the berries. If Snow hadn't pulled the Quarter Quell trick this is likely what his play would have been (and he absolutely would have made sure she had them). Even if her children never got reaped they'd still grow up in this world and Katniss had already seen too much by the start of book 1 to want to subject them to that. Which brings in point 2 and her refusal to have them becoming her pre-Hunger Games rebellion. Had she not gone to the Games she likely would have succeeded in her plan and spent most of her life hunting in the woods and helping her neighbors where she could.

What isn't clear in the final pages is that Katniss did want to have the two she has with Peeta. If it were simply about her and Peeta raising children together they could have adopted a couple of orphans but she instead agrees to get pregnant and give birth. Collins makes clear that Katniss is taking a chance on hope and believing in a better future. We know that the Games have ended, 12's industry is now making medicine, and they're presumably still under the leadership of Paylor which means the country is still in good hands and Katniss doesn't have to worry that her children will be subjected to the same world she was raised in.

It's just not as clear as it should be and ends up seeming like Katniss had kids only because Peeta wore her down. I suppose her having kids was mandated by the publisher like the inclusion of Gale and that's why it's in the epilogue rather than expanded upon in the series but I don't know.

One thing that I wanted to see in MJ2 that didn't happen was serious time spent on the fallout of Katniss witnessing Prim's death and then her backside catching on fire. She's so badly burned that she's given synthetic skin, she becomes addicted to morphling, and basically loses her mind due to the physical and emotional trauma. And, since Coin wanted Katniss to perform Snow's execution, they had to wait for her to heal just enough to put on the show. That means a lot of time passed that we could have seen, including Coin's machinations, Snow's trial, and how the general public was reacting to the new normal. I was really looking forward to seeing how they'd show all of this, yet it was a blip.

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23 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

I always saw Katniss' position on not having children to be twofold:

1) she was afraid of bringing children into this world

2) it was her own, unconscious, way of rebelling against the Capital.

Oooh, very interesting viewpoint. I hadn't thought of that! I can definitely see that playing in the back of her mind even if she never really consciously thought of it.

 

24 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

One thing that I wanted to see in MJ2 that didn't happen was serious time spent on the fallout of Katniss witnessing Prim's death and then her backside catching on fire.

Agreed. And you reminded me of something I paid attention to for the first time this reading, is that Peeta was badly burned as well that day. Bad enough that he had to spend a long time healing up. Katniss mentions that when he shows up planting the primroses, he had finally healed enough to come home. He must have gotten close to Katniss right before the bombs went off, even if she didn't realize it. (Unless there were bombings in other parts of the Capitol, but they only seemed to mention bombing the children so that wasn't the impression I got.)

I'm endlessly fascinated by just how much of a role Cinna had in shaping the rebellion. I noticed reading Ballads just now that when Lucy Gray's fellow Twelve tribute comes on stage with her, she takes his hand and curtsies, pulling him into a bow with her, and then she keeps hold of his hand so they're standing there hand-in-hand while the cameras are still on them. Just like Cinna told Katniss and Peeta to hold hands the first time they were presented in the chariot. Just one more little reminder to Snow of his beginnings.

The layers in these stories are endless.

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I don't want to forget minor points about Ballads so I'm going to mention them as I think about it while I'm reading. I hope nobody minds me having several posts in a row (but since this board is rarely used anymore it'll probably be okay).

I'm still amazed at how much input Snow personally had in shaping the Games into what we saw by the time of the trilogy. It's both horrible and humane of him. Horrible because you have people partying and cheering as children fight to the death for their entertainment, humane because at least the tributes are going into the Games well fed and cared for instead of starving and being treated like literal animals on display, with the chance of receiving helpful gifts during the Games as well which often means the difference between life and death.

I also noticed this time that Lucy Gray has a particular sweet tooth. I remembered that Effie said in passing (I think just in the movie version) that Twelve is the only district allowed to have dessert on the way to the Capitol for the Games. I wonder if Snow set it up that way in what he thought was in honor of Lucy Gray?

I've just read the part where Snow sees the human/animal hybrid experiments in the lab - Avoxes who have been given fish gills, talons, tentacles, etc. Really makes me wonder if the wolf mutts in the first Games of the trilogy really did have the dead tributes' eyes. Ghastly.

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17 hours ago, Taryn74 said:

Effie said in passing (I think just in the movie version) that Twelve is the only district allowed to have dessert

I didn't take her seriously when she said that.  It sounded like something she'd make up to soothe hurt feelings -- oh, your brother hit you?  Well, I'll give you the bigger piece of cake kind of thing.

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4 hours ago, Browncoat said:

I didn't take her seriously when she said that.  It sounded like something she'd make up to soothe hurt feelings -- oh, your brother hit you?  Well, I'll give you the bigger piece of cake kind of thing.

You could be right! I just always figured she was being truthful and it was because the Twelve tributes were usually on the brink of starvation, whereas the others weren't, so the Twelve tributes needed to store up all the extra calories they could get on the way to the Games.

Which also begs the question......why? Why was Twelve the only District whose citizens were starving? (And this is canon from the books, so it's not based on Effie's comment.) Just musing out loud, and this is based on memory, so bear with me -- 

One, Two, and Three were all Districts which were treated better because of the advanced goods they supplied. One was luxury items, Two was where the Peacekeepers came from, and Three was in charge of the electronics and technology, so it makes sense the Capitol would favor them. Four would have been able to supplement their food from the Gulf seafood. Don't remember right now what Five and Six supplied. Seven was the timber district. Eight was textiles, and the Capitol loved their clothes LOL. Nine.....don't remember. Was it the one with the Dam? Ten supplied cattle and livestock, so they could also feed themselves even though it was probably like Eleven (grains) which would mean punishment if they took too much. But they could at least feed themselves without resorting to illegally hunting the way Katniss did. 

So out of Five, Six, Nine, and Twelve, it's unclear why Twelve would be the only District left in such dire straits that the books make a point to bring it up. Is it maybe because it's the District closest geographically to Thirteen, so the citizens had to be kept in such a state of meager existence that they wouldn't have time to worry about trying to escape and realize Thirteen is still alive and thriving? Thoughts?

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On 2/16/2021 at 6:10 PM, Taryn74 said:

You could be right! I just always figured she was being truthful and it was because the Twelve tributes were usually on the brink of starvation, whereas the others weren't, so the Twelve tributes needed to store up all the extra calories they could get on the way to the Games.

Which also begs the question......why? Why was Twelve the only District whose citizens were starving? (And this is canon from the books, so it's not based on Effie's comment.) Just musing out loud, and this is based on memory, so bear with me -- 

One, Two, and Three were all Districts which were treated better because of the advanced goods they supplied. One was luxury items, Two was where the Peacekeepers came from, and Three was in charge of the electronics and technology, so it makes sense the Capitol would favor them. Four would have been able to supplement their food from the Gulf seafood. Don't remember right now what Five and Six supplied. Seven was the timber district. Eight was textiles, and the Capitol loved their clothes LOL. Nine.....don't remember. Was it the one with the Dam? Ten supplied cattle and livestock, so they could also feed themselves even though it was probably like Eleven (grains) which would mean punishment if they took too much. But they could at least feed themselves without resorting to illegally hunting the way Katniss did. 

So out of Five, Six, Nine, and Twelve, it's unclear why Twelve would be the only District left in such dire straits that the books make a point to bring it up. Is it maybe because it's the District closest geographically to Thirteen, so the citizens had to be kept in such a state of meager existence that they wouldn't have time to worry about trying to escape and realize Thirteen is still alive and thriving? Thoughts?

District Twelve was coal mines in Appalachia.  Suzanne Collins used stereotypes of the region to create the district.  District Twelve would have required the same amount of food brought in as the other industry-heavy districts, yet somehow it was poorer.  

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Somewhat trivial comment, but I don't want to forget about it --

I remember when we were discussing Ballads over on the Currently Reading board, someone mentioned they didn't think the Tigris in that book was the same one as in the trilogy. I think their argument was mostly because she would have had to be in her 80's by the time of the trilogy and the movie version of her did not look that old. (My counter to that was that Pres. Snow is only three years younger and he didn't look "that old" in the movies either. I believe the Capitol folks are well capable of undergoing surgeries and procedures to reduce the appearance of aging, and would consider it a normal part of existence.)

I, on the other hand, think Collins did everything but hang a neon sign from Tigris' neck stating that she was the same character, LOL. She had all the makings and skills of a top stylist even in their impoverished conditions, she and Snow were very close as kids/teens so he would have made sure she had a good position after he came into power (even though she grew to hate what he ultimately became), she visibly reacted to the can of salmon that Katniss gave her in Mockingjay (canned salmon was one of the things in the unexpected "feast" that Tigris, Snow, and Grandma'am shared when they were given a whole turkey), it was mentioned she preferred to eat meat raw in both Ballads and Mockingjay, and I noticed reading this time that the book made mention of her wearing some of her mother's old furs as a comfort. Obviously that influenced her opening up a fur shop after she was kicked out of her job as a stylist for going too far with her body alterations.

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2 hours ago, Taryn74 said:

Somewhat trivial comment, but I don't want to forget about it --

I remember when we were discussing Ballads over on the Currently Reading board, someone mentioned they didn't think the Tigris in that book was the same one as in the trilogy. I think their argument was mostly because she would have had to be in her 80's by the time of the trilogy and the movie version of her did not look that old. (My counter to that was that Pres. Snow is only three years younger and he didn't look "that old" in the movies either. I believe the Capitol folks are well capable of undergoing surgeries and procedures to reduce the appearance of aging, and would consider it a normal part of existence.)

I, on the other hand, think Collins did everything but hang a neon sign from Tigris' neck stating that she was the same character, LOL. She had all the makings and skills of a top stylist even in their impoverished conditions, she and Snow were very close as kids/teens so he would have made sure she had a good position after he came into power (even though she grew to hate what he ultimately became), she visibly reacted to the can of salmon that Katniss gave her in Mockingjay (canned salmon was one of the things in the unexpected "feast" that Tigris, Snow, and Grandma'am shared when they were given a whole turkey), it was mentioned she preferred to eat meat raw in both Ballads and Mockingjay, and I noticed reading this time that the book made mention of her wearing some of her mother's old furs as a comfort. Obviously that influenced her opening up a fur shop after she was kicked out of her job as a stylist for going too far with her body alterations.

Yeah, that was me.  And I get that Collins meant for them to be the same Tigris, but it just seems too convenient and contrived, like a lot of other things in Ballad.  Don't get me wrong, I liked Ballad, and I generally liked the story of how Snow came to be Snow, but it was a little much to have all of those things connected to him.

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It's been a few years since I read the books, but as far as District 12 and its rampant poverty and food shortages, I never necessarily got the strictest impression that it was the only impoverished district. But it was all that Katniss, our narrator, knew. It's worth remembering that Katniss is, to varying degrees, an unreliable narrator throughout the books, either due to outside factors (isolation and ignorance of other districts) or due to her mental state. 

Also, with 12 being furthest from the Capitol, "out of sight, out of mind" is likely a big factor. And (IIRC) it is one of the smallest, if not the smallest, of the districts.

So, venturing into the land of sheer speculation... maybe the Capitol bases food allotments off population? Maybe some of the uppity ups of Panem "accidentally" misdirect some of the food shipments meant for 12 to other districts, especially if it might be (no idea here) the Peacekeepers in charge of food supplies. "Oops, this shipment of grain for 12 seems to have ended up in my home district instead, shucks, too late to do anything about it now..."

Touching back on the subject of Josh Hutcherson, I really liked him but still feel that the character of Peeta wasn't done justice in the movies. Peeta may not be a fighter like Katniss but he is very witty, compassionate, and very, very shrewd when it comes to people. Yet IMO the movies softened him down too much so he does (again, IMO) come across as more bland than he should. But I've seen JH in enough interviews to know that he himself is very witty and sharp and should be the perfect actor to bring Peeta to life (watching him and JL in an interview together, zinging each other nonstop, is a real treat and a wonderful way to waste far too much time, lol). So personally I have to lay Peeta's cinematic blandness on either direction or script. It's a shame, because these movies are so good.

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50 minutes ago, Maelstrom said:

maybe the Capitol bases food allotments off population?

My guess is it's more based on the return of investment. We know the coal mined from the district is exported, which means it's in use, but it's not a major resource in the country. Every other district has an industry that is far more beneficial to the Capitol so I would expect them to each get more food to keep the workforce going. By extension I would also assume that 1 and 2 get the most of anyone since 1 manufactures luxury goods and a ton of Peacekeepers are originally from 2. Then we get into the existence of Careers so I'd extend my assumption to include 4 (fishing) being allotted some additional food, or they're allowed to keep more for themselves than 9 (grain), 10 (livestock), or 11 (crops) are.

That then raises the question of why Twelve continues to exist at all since their industry isn't really of any consequence to the rest of Panem? This is where I think Snow's personal connection plays a role. At first it's likely due to him wanting to hurt Lucy again and again, since he never saw her body so he isn't 100% sure that she's dead. I could see him taking even more pleasure in watching the 12 tributes get struck down because they could be part of Lucy's extended family and, if she managed to survive, their deaths would hurt her too.

Haymitch comes along in Quarter Quell 2, outsmarts the arena, and gives Snow a new person to torture. I always found it interesting that Snow didn't simply arrange for Haymitch's younger brother and/or girlfriend to be tributes for him to mentor but straight up had them killed along with his mom within two weeks of the victory. To me this says that he was so angry he couldn't think straight and his history with 12 adds that context. I think he did realize his mistake later on when Haymitch dove headfirst into alcohol rather than form new relationships which is why he didn't murder Katniss' loved ones after the berries.

That's what I like about Ballads the most. Yes, the real reason Katniss' loved ones stayed alive was to make for a better story but it provides valuable in story explanations that made sense.

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1 hour ago, scarynikki12 said:

My guess is it's more based on the return of investment. We know the coal mined from the district is exported, which means it's in use, but it's not a major resource in the country. Every other district has an industry that is far more beneficial to the Capitol so I would expect them to each get more food to keep the workforce going.

...
That then raises the question of why Twelve continues to exist at all since their industry isn't really of any consequence to the rest of Panem?

I’ve wondered about that, too. My theory is that the Capitol uses 12’s coal to power the majority of Panem, i.e. the “lesser” districts, while saving cleaner, more efficient power for themselves (and maybe Districts 1 and 2, to keep the luxury goods and Peacekeepers coming).

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5 hours ago, Maelstrom said:

So, venturing into the land of sheer speculation... maybe the Capitol bases food allotments off population? Maybe some of the uppity ups of Panem "accidentally" misdirect some of the food shipments meant for 12 to other districts, especially if it might be (no idea here) the Peacekeepers in charge of food supplies. "Oops, this shipment of grain for 12 seems to have ended up in my home district instead, shucks, too late to do anything about it now..."

I could definitely see that happening. We know that kids signing up for tesserae triggers the amount of food their family gets, so you're probably right that the food allotments are monitored. I'm sure Snow made sure not all the food got to where it was "supposed" to go sometimes as well. (In Catching Fire, in particular, Katniss mentions that the extra food the District is supposed to get for the next year because of the victors starts showing up late, infested with vermin, spoiled, and eventually doesn't show up at all. This is obviously meant to put pressure on her to try harder to squelch the uprising.)

 

4 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

That then raises the question of why Twelve continues to exist at all since their industry isn't really of any consequence to the rest of Panem? This is where I think Snow's personal connection plays a role. At first it's likely due to him wanting to hurt Lucy again and again, since he never saw her body so he isn't 100% sure that she's dead. I could see him taking even more pleasure in watching the 12 tributes get struck down because they could be part of Lucy's extended family and, if she managed to survive, their deaths would hurt her too.

I have a theory about that, involving the mockingjays, which I will get into once I've finished the book so I have all the details fresh in my mind. 😉

 

 

4 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

That's what I like about Ballads the most. Yes, the real reason Katniss' loved ones stayed alive was to make for a better story but it provides valuable in story explanations that made sense.

Totally agree. It's been a great tool in worldbuilding. I get a huge kick out of filling in more and more of the storyline.

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On 1/4/2021 at 5:34 PM, HurricaneVal said:

The protagonist is a young teenage Coriolanus Snow, and Suzanne Collins actually makes you feel some sympathy for and root for this character who grows into the President Snow we love to loathe.  You see the conflicts and choices that put his feet on that path. 

I just finished re-reading Ballads tonight and I have to say, reading it through this time I felt a lot less sorry for Snow than I did the first time. Yes, he was absolutely a victim of his circumstances (starting with the war which took both of his parents from him, and then a decade of being on the brink of starvation and overall despair of life) but there was a coldness, an absolute lack of compassion for anyone who wasn't able to help him advance himself in some way, which was present the entire story. This wasn't something that grew in him as time went on, it was always there. I think I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt because of Tigris' obvious affection for him, and she is a genuinely good person, but I think she was blinded by her familial love for him to see him for the monster he really was. He is truly a horrible, horrible person.

I had managed to forget that Sejanus was hanged at the end, but once it became clear that's where it was going my heart just sank. I literally felt sick to my stomach. Still do. It's bedtime but I'm going to have to wait a while or my dreams will be horrid. 😞

Now, to the theory I've been teasing -- I believe after Snow went back to the Capitol, he worked with the Nazi-like doctors in the lab and had them modify the mockingjays to spy on the Districts the way the jabberjays were designed to do. The Districts had already gotten used to the presence of the mockingjays and felt that they were a private joke, a reminder of how they had gotten one up on the Capitol, but Snow knew that too. Lucy Gray told him the story. I believe he turned around and used the mockingjays against them as his own private joke of sorts - and worse, I believe the birds were modified to identify DNA markers (the way the rainbow snakes were) and report back when they had recorded specific people and/or their offspring. Starting off he probably wanted to confirm to himself that Lucy Gray was dead (if no bird ever came back with her recorded voice, it would confirm she wasn't out there anywhere) but then it branched out to spying on the Covey and from there, anyone who might become a problem for the Capitol. The movie confirms that the District citizens had their DNA markers on file (they had to have a finger prick when lining up for the reapings to verify that they were present) and when the jabberjays attack in Catching Fire, they had the specific voices of everyone that the victims knew and loved. The book even mentions Gale's little sister Posey, who the Gamemakers would have no reason to interview so they wouldn't have gotten her voice that way. I believe the Districts were being spied on for decades and didn't even know it, because they would never notice mockingjays flying around or think anything of it. The mockingjays fell silent when they heard certain people singing, Katniss mentions this more than once in the trilogy. And the jabberjays were designed to be silent while they were recording. Snow even noticed that the mockingjays fell silent when Lucy Gray was singing, that might have even given him the idea. Lord, he makes me sick to my stomach.

I might have more thoughts tomorrow but for now, that's enough.

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One thing I really enjoyed about Ballad that I haven't seen mentioned yet is the way having seen the Hunger Games from Katniss's POV informs the reader's ability to know what's going on with Lucy. Since she's not the narrator, the only real insight we get from Ballad itself into what she's really thinking is through her various songs. If I didn't know how a smart person "plays" the Hunger Games, I might have bought more into young Snow's belief that Lucy really fell in love with him, or at least thought she had some Stockholm Syndrome going on. But Lucy is, IMO, Katniss's ancestor (the song foreshadows Lucy's not dead, she just disappears), and they have a lot in common. Having read the Hunger Games trilogy plenty of times, I'm very familiar with the way Katniss thinks, and thus I always had a good idea of what Lucy was thinking at any point, no matter what Snow's narration was going on about.

The other, related, thing is that it also shows why the older Snow never believes it in Catching Fire when Katniss is trying to convince him that she is really in love and happy with Peeta. By that point Snow'd gone all the way over into "Lucy was just playing me" territory, I'm sure also recognized how similar Katniss and Lucy were as people, so his basic assumption is always that Katniss is a lying liar who lies.

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2 hours ago, Black Knight said:

By that point Snow'd gone all the way over into "Lucy was just playing me" territory, I'm sure also recognized how similar Katniss and Lucy were as people, so his basic assumption is always that Katniss is a lying liar who lies.

I'm glad you brought this up, because I've been meaning to ask and keep forgetting -- how does everyone feel about Lucy Gray, and whether or not her "feelings" for Snow were ever genuine? I'm leaning toward no, tbh. As hardened and cynical as Katniss was, Lucy Gray was ten times more so IMO and she knew how to play people from a very young age, just because of the life she had to lead. As an orphaned performer, it was either wiggle her way into people's affections or starve to death, you know? She would know exactly what sort of act to put on for different people. I'm not even sure if I like her as a person. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. She just strikes me as very disingenuous. 

I haven't made up my mind, though, whether I believe she was planning to sabotage Snow with the guns in the abandoned house or if he was just being overly paranoid out of guilt and it got away from him.

I do believe she died when Snow shot at her, btw. Either that or she escaped and found the free people living in the woods the book alluded to, and didn't go back to District Twelve. But I'm leaning toward she died that day or shortly thereafter. I believe that Katniss (via her father) was a descendent of Maude Ivory, not Lucy Gray. Maude Ivory's special talent was that she only had to hear a song once and could sing it flawlessly, and Katniss seems to have the same talent. It's overtly mentioned with regards to her knowing The Hanging Tree, but IMO it's implied with her volunteering to sing The Valley Song at school as a young child (when Peeta fell for her) and then after Prim is killed and Katniss is trying to starve herself to death, what brings her out of that dark abandon is she randomly starts singing. Dozens and dozens of songs, when she herself had noted that she didn't have much use for music after her father died, so it would have been years since she really sang very much, aside from singing Prim (and Rue.....sad sigh) to sleep sometimes and that was only with one specific song.

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I'm definitely of the mind that Lucy didn't love Snow at all but did see that he was a useful ally, obviously, and I don't blame her for that at all. Plus she does save him in the book - not out of feelings IMO but because she's a good person at heart who just couldn't leave someone in that way. That was one of the moments where she most vividly reminded me of Katniss. When he shows up in the district, that's a bit of a different story, but I think she sees it somewhat as in for a penny, in for a pound. She got him to fall for her and now she has to follow through on it. She surely knew how dangerous it would be to reject Snow at that point, so might as well make the best of it.

I don't think she planned to sabotage Snow at the end; to a small degree that's his paranoia talking, but the real motivation is that he doesn't really want to turn his back on his life to go eke out a living in the woods with her and so he really wants to come up with a reason not to do so. I think the part where we see the snake-like workings of his mind as he suddenly constructs this new narrative about her in order to turn against her is the most brilliant part of the book. But on her end, he would have been useful to her, at least until she got to the free folk, and she isn't the type to just throw that over. Of course once she figured out exactly how awful of a person he is, she got outta there.

Maude Ivory is a possibility for Katniss's ancestor too, you're right. I don't think Snow succeeded in shooting Lucy at all though.  He had no idea where she was and was just shooting wildly. And she was prepared for that. Snow admits himself he has no idea if he hit her, and I think Collins would at least have had a little bit where he finds some drops of blood on the ground or whatever.

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1 hour ago, Black Knight said:

but the real motivation is that he doesn't really want to turn his back on his life to go eke out a living in the woods with her and so he really wants to come up with a reason not to do so.

Very true, very true. And it harkens back to how he was during the entire book, he would have a (selfish) goal in mind and take whatever steps necessary to bring it about in a seemingly organic way, even if he had to manipulate others and make them believe their actions were their own doing instead of his manipulations. He was a master at gaslighting and spent decades honing that skill, by the time of the trilogy he had the entire nation believing his BS. Even the ones who didn't trust him were still shocked at the way they had been snowed under (heh) by some things.

I got to thinking this morning about how knowing he was directly responsible for Sejanus' being hanged, Snow still went back to the Capitol and treated Sejanus' parents as though they were his own. Sickening. I think and Sejanus' father were two peas in a pod, though. It was Ma that I really felt sorry for.

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On 2/22/2021 at 1:27 AM, Taryn74 said:

I just finished re-reading Ballads tonight and I have to say, reading it through this time I felt a lot less sorry for Snow than I did the first time. Yes, he was absolutely a victim of his circumstances (starting with the war which took both of his parents from him, and then a decade of being on the brink of starvation and overall despair of life) but there was a coldness, an absolute lack of compassion for anyone who wasn't able to help him advance himself in some way, which was present the entire story. This wasn't something that grew in him as time went on, it was always there. I think I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt because of Tigris' obvious affection for him, and she is a genuinely good person, but I think she was blinded by her familial love for him to see him for the monster he really was. He is truly a horrible, horrible person.

All this. I didn’t feel sorry for Snow at all when I read it, and it was so refreshing to get a villain backstory that didn’t try to absolve/excuse what he became.

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Had a chance to sit down and watch THG movie last night. After having just finished Ballads, the scene really stood out to me where Snow and Seneca Crane were discussing the plan to play up Katniss and Peeta as star-crossed lovers for ratings. Snow was dismissive, since they are from an outlying District where the Capitol citizens don't care about the people as much. Seneca Crane argues that they are underdogs, and everybody likes an underdog. Snow's cold "I don't" speaks a ton to how angry he still is, 60+ years later, over being played for a fool (in his mind) by Lucy Gray.

It was also quite poetic (in a sick and twisted way, of course) that Seneca Crane knew his punishment for letting Katniss and Peeta both live was death by poison when he walked into the empty room and saw the bowl full of Nightlock berries, since Snow usually poisoned people secretly. Little touches like that are why I appreciate the movies filling in some of the not-Katniss-centric moments that we don't get from the books.

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