The Hunger Games Series

[Black Knight]

23 hours ago, Taryn74 said:

Snow's cold "I don't" speaks a ton to how angry he still is, 60+ years later, over being played for a fool (in his mind) by Lucy Gray.

Indeed. I just reread the section of the prequel where Snow decided not to trade Lucy for Marcus, and it's because he recognized that winning with Marcus would be easy, but winning with Lucy would really make him look impressive because she was a long shot.

Young Snow had some ostensible trappings of the underdog himself: He was orphaned, his family had lost its fortune and most of its position, and later in the book he got busted and exiled to Twelve. All of those are bad memories for him, so he doesn't ever want to think of himself as having been an underdog. It always galled him to have come down from what he saw as his rightful position as the most elite of the elite ruling class, and he probably prefers to think of himself as having been "temporarily embarrassed" rather than a true underdog.

[Taryn74]

4 hours ago, Black Knight said:

It always galled him to have come down from what he saw as his rightful position as the most elite of the elite ruling class, and he probably prefers to think of himself as having been "temporarily embarrassed" rather than a true underdog.

So true. I remember his innate snobbery towards Ma when he came over to their house and she had him sit in the kitchen rather than go to a formal room. He didn't say it out loud, but he had some really nasty thoughts about her. Probably thought the same sort of thing towards Mrs. Everdeen when she brought him the tea and cookies and offered to make him a more substantial meal if he was hungry. He was so dismissive of her even Katniss picked up on it. Prick.

 

ETA - I also remember his horror at the thought of Tigris prostituting herself out to keep food on their table. He wasn't horrified at the thought of what it would do to her person, just at the thought of what it meant for the family name. Ugh. He makes my skin crawl.

Edited March 9, 2021 by Taryn74

[Black Knight]

9 minutes ago, Taryn74 said:

ETA - I also remember his horror at the thought of Tigris prostituting herself out to keep food on their table. He wasn't horrified at the thought of what it would do to her person, just at the thought of what it meant for the family name. Ugh. He makes my skin crawl.

He did express concern about that on the second page of the prequel. He noted that Tigris could find takers because she was sweet with a vulnerability that invited abuse, and that made him feel sick and helpless, and then disgusted at himself. He didn't mention the family name then.

[Taryn74]

4 hours ago, Black Knight said:

He did express concern about that on the second page of the prequel. He noted that Tigris could find takers because she was sweet with a vulnerability that invited abuse, and that made him feel sick and helpless, and then disgusted at himself. He didn't mention the family name then.

I thought even then he was thinking something about 'has the house of Snow fallen this far' but I could be wrong.

He's still disgusting. LOL

[Black Knight]

Ah, you're right, it's in the paragraph immediately before. But I don't think it's his primary concern as it's not until he thinks about Tigris potentially being abused that the negative emotions come:

Quote

 

And what on earth would she possess worth trading for it? Only one thing - herself - and the house of Snow had not yet fallen that far. Or was it falling now as he salted the cabbage?

He thought of people putting a price on her. With her long, pointed nose and skinny body, Tigris was no great beauty, but she had a sweetness, a vulnerability that invited abuse. She would find takers, if she had a mind to. The idea made him feel sick and helpless and, consequently, disgusted with himself.

 

I know Snow is evil as all get out and that he was always a monster - the war didn't make him that way, it was always there in him - but he does have some genuine care and concern for Tigris. Many years later, even cynical Johanna will think that President Snow's granddaughter in a final Hunger Games is something that would hurt him.

[Taryn74]

We watched Catching Fire tonight. Of all the movies, I think this one does the best job of capturing the details of the book. Even if they did have to leave out scenes I wish they could have explored onscreen (like Katniss running into the two women who had fled from Eight, or her getting caught outside the fence when it was electrified - I really love that Peeta and Haymitch were both hanging at her house when she came in. I like the subtle reminders that Haymitch and Mrs. Everdeen were peers, and I always love when Peeta and Katniss get to be couple-y but not OTT for the cameras).

This movie has some really powerful moments, too. Peeta jumping back in shock when the man in Eleven is shot in front of the crowd, Katniss shooting the turkey but having a PTSD-flashback and seeing Marvel go down instead, Peeta and Haymitch both running in between Thread and Katniss without hesitation when he is whipping Gale, the look of relief on Effie's face when she pulls Haymitch's name and then the heartbreak when Peeta immediately volunteers to take his place, Katniss' wedding dress burning up into the mockingjay dress (that one ALWAYS gives me chills), Katniss giving Snow a 'go eff yourself' look as she ignites her dress in the chariot ride, Ceasar frantically signaling the cameras to cut out when the tributes are defiantly standing in unity, every time Johanna yells at the camera (and the mention of how she wants Snow's back yard on fire makes me think that's how he punished her and probably killed her family/friends), and finally the look on Snow's face as he realizes he's pushed the Districts just a little too far and his kingdom is crumbling around him. Powerful, powerful imagery.

[Taryn74]

On 2/15/2021 at 6:51 PM, Taryn74 said:

I remembered that Effie said in passing (I think just in the movie version) that Twelve is the only district allowed to have dessert on the way to the Capitol for the Games.

Minor correction since I rewatched the movie recently, Effie says that the Careers (which are just Districts One and Two in the movie version) aren't allowed to have dessert while in training, so it's not all the Districts other than Twelve. But Katniss does make a point in the books that Twelve is the worst off food-wise, so the overall thought is still valid.

 

On 2/16/2021 at 5:10 PM, Taryn74 said:

Don't remember right now what Five and Six supplied. Seven was the timber district. Eight was textiles, and the Capitol loved their clothes LOL. Nine.....don't remember. Was it the one with the Dam?

Hubby and I watched Mockingjay Part 1 tonight. The hydrodam was in District Five, so I'm back to not knowing what Nine supplied. I could probably look it up on the wiki page. Hmmm.

[scarynikki12]

The industries of each district are:

• District 1: Luxury goods
• District 2: Masonry
• District 3: Electronic goods manufacturing
• District 4: Fishing
• District 5: Power generation
• District 6: Transportation manufacturing
• District 7: Lumber
• District 8: Textiles
• District 9: Grain
• District 10: Livestock
• District 11: Crops
• District 12: Coal mining

[Taryn74]

Thank you, @scarynikki12! 

I have to say, one thing I did like about the Mockingjay movies is that they gave Effie a much bigger role than in Mockingjay the book. I know they did that so they wouldn't have to bring in extra characters and put more focus on Katniss' prep team (although finding them chained up in the room because Octavia had taken a piece of bread was an important moment in the book and showed that Thirteen was not necessarily the utopia it presented itself to be) but it was a really nice progression to watch Effie go from being full-on Capitol fluffhead when we first met her, to being 100% on Katniss' side and a rebel in her own right.

BTW, does anyone know why THG wiki lists Bristol (one of Gale's fellow miners who helped him after he was whipped in CF) as a female? It's not important since it's the only time the character is even mentioned, but I always try to pay attention ever since seeing that and never see any indication whether the person is male or female. I just wonder what I missed, LOL.

Edited March 12, 2021 by Taryn74

[Black Knight]

On 3/12/2021 at 1:31 PM, Taryn74 said:

BTW, does anyone know why THG wiki lists Bristol (one of Gale's fellow miners who helped him after he was whipped in CF) as a female? It's not important since it's the only time the character is even mentioned, but I always try to pay attention ever since seeing that and never see any indication whether the person is male or female. I just wonder what I missed, LOL.

It might be an assumption based on nationality. I didn't even know that Bristol could be a guy's name until you made me aware, heh. After some googling, it appears that it's in the UK that the name is given to boys, while in America it's given to girls, and Suzanne Collins is American. (Not sure about the people who run the THG wiki.)

[Taryn74]

2 hours ago, Black Knight said:

It might be an assumption based on nationality. I didn't even know that Bristol could be a guy's name until you made me aware, heh. After some googling, it appears that it's in the UK that the name is given to boys, while in America it's given to girls, and Suzanne Collins is American. (Not sure about the people who run the THG wiki.)

I didn't even realize Bristol was a "real" name, ha! Thanks for looking into it for me.

[Taryn74]

A Father's Day post on the official THG facebook page got me to thinking about something --

Did Finnick know Annie was pregnant before he left to go fight the Capitol in Mockingjay? I'm torn between two options:

1) It was too early in the pregnancy for either of them to know she was pregnant before he left, and Finnick died not knowing he was going to be a father (which really makes me sad);

or

2) They did know and Finnick chose not to tell Katniss because he knew she would insist he stay and/or worry about trying to "protect" him and get him back safely to Annie instead of focusing on the mission.

I guess I could see a third option, too, kind of a cross between the two, where Annie realized she was pregnant after Finnick left and got word to him (they were in the Capitol for at least two - three weeks, right?) and so he knew but chose not to say anything to anyone else. I think I like that option the best. It just makes me too sad to think Finnick died without knowing he was fighting for a better world for more than just Annie.

[Black Knight]

I think Finnick died without knowing, because there's nothing about a baby when Katniss sees Finnick's life flashing before her eyes in that strange psychic moment. I also think it would have been harder on Finnick to have known. He got to die feeling he'd accomplished what he'd most wanted in life, which was marrying Annie. He had closure. But if he had been looking forward to meeting his child and raising his child, and then had that taken away from him...he'd already suffered so much, he didn't need to go out feeling the Capitol had stolen that from him too.

[scarynikki12]

I just reread the trilogy and I've come away with some new theories.

The first I'm confident on which is Snow arranged for Finnick and Annie's names to be reaped in Catching Fire. He absolutely knew about their relationship and was punishing them. What's murkier to me are Snow's specific motives beyond that. We know he forced Finnick into prostitution after his win so he may have thought the relationship with Annie would give him courage to refuse to continue. Or maybe he started suspecting Finnick knew things he shouldn't but didn't want to tip anyone off. I actually don't think he suspected Finnick of being part of the growing rebellion even though that's right there as a possible motive. I think Snow was looking at Finnick as a cash cow and didn't want him having a mind of his own.

I'm also curious as to what Cashmere and Gloss did back when they were originally reaped. Katniss mentions how the children of victors have been reaped just often enough for people to be aware it wasn't coincidence and I would expect this to apply to siblings too. The books don't specify which sibling went first, only that they won in back to back Games, but whichever won first had to have done something to really piss off Snow for the other to be reaped. Especially in a Capital favored district like 1. Fast forward to Catching Fire and both siblings get reaped again. Mags and Peeta are the only ones specifically mentioned to volunteer so my assumption is all of the other victors were specifically reaped. There's no way District 1 only had two living victors so this both tells us the other victors wanted nothing to do with the Games and that Snow likely wanted both siblings off the board. They weren't rebels so they had to have done something else to piss him off and I'm curious as to what that was. I think the victors from the other districts were chosen without machinations for the record. There's no indication he was upset with District 2 and Katniss mentions how few living victors there were in the other districts. They had just enough to send a man and woman and that's it. 

It's interesting reading Mockingjay knowing Katniss ends up with Peeta and that Collins was forced to include Gale. Katniss spends a lot of time in the books flat out annoyed with Gale and their two romantic scenes underline how not into him she was. The first is when she kisses Gale in District 12 to make him feel better and even he is aware enough to point out that was the only reason she did it. When he later kisses her in District 2 she goes along with it because she wants to feel something in the wake of her trauma over Peeta's attack and grief at losing him. The rest of the time they barely seem like friends and my theory formed in their final talk after Prim died. My theory is these parts of this book were not about Who Will Katniss Choose??? but about the end of her friendship with Gale. Gale keeps trying to convince her there's a love triangle going on but she isn't having it. Instead she's focused on things he's doing that bother her but purposefully downplays them due to their years of friendship: his obvious admiration of Coin, the bombs he makes with Beetee, his lack of caring about how the prep team was treated, and his continued jealousy about not being the one Katniss loves that even extends to her friendship with Finnick, these are all things that Katniss takes note of and clearly is bothered by. She wants to return to the days when they just met in the woods and isn't ready to accept that won't happen. Then Prim is killed and it's all over. I think Katniss is in deliberate denial when she thinks about how they'll never truly know if the bombs came from the Capital or 13 but they were from 13 and she just can't face it. She can't face the fact her childhood best friend designed the device that killed her sister and other innocents. So she lets him off the hook by accepting his claim he doesn't know if the bombs were his (he did but also couldn't face it). Their scenes in Mockingjay were all about the end of their friendship and Prim's death was merely the lynchpin. Without that it may have taken longer before they both realized that. 

My hope is when the Songbirds prequel comes out it's successful enough for Lionsgate to be willing to give the trilogy another try. The books are tailor made for a streaming service: three books=three seasons, 8-10 episodes means they can explore the world and characters in more detail which fans would love, and they could really lean into the horror rather than get distracted by the shiny "love triangle" like the movies. I would love to see every tribute death in the Games treated as the tragedies they are and the Capital as the colorful but grotesque place it really is. 

[Browncoat]

On 3/18/2023 at 2:57 PM, scarynikki12 said:

I'm also curious as to what Cashmere and Gloss did back when they were originally reaped.

It's been a while since I read the books, but I thought Cashmere and Gloss were originally careers?  Who knows why they were reaped the second time.  Of course Snow and Plutarch came up with the Quarter Quell on the fly -- it might be interesting to find out what the original Quarter Quell was meant to be.

[scarynikki12]

46 minutes ago, Browncoat said:

It's been a while since I read the books, but I thought Cashmere and Gloss were originally careers?

I thought about that and I think they were both on the Career track growing up but I'm not certain both would have volunteered at their respective reapings. Katniss didn't go into the volunteer process in the Career districts, only that it can be complicated when more than one kid does it, so we don't actually know their details. There had to be years when even the Career districts didn't see volunteers for one or both tributes* so that may have happened with 1. I can buy whichever sibling went first volunteered and was eager for fortune and glory but the bloom would have fallen off the rose pretty quickly once the Games were underway and definitely in the aftermath. That sibling would have felt some kind of trauma response and probably was forced into prostitution like Finnick and others. Katniss asks Haymitch if he'd experienced what Finnick had and he hadn't because Snow made the mistake of killing his family and girlfriend which left no personal leverage. Whichever sibling went second was in all likelihood used against the first and then reaped to keep them in line. Then sibling 2 won and now Snow had leverage on both.

Or maybe the volunteer process includes something like: if more than one kid volunteers they and the original name get put back into the bowl for a re-draw and that person goes no matter what. There was mention of finding the procedure when Katniss volunteered which sounds like there's more to it but Madge's dad just let it go so we don't know anything more. Maybe even one volunteer means both names go into the bowl for a second draw and the original name could still be picked. (This is where a streaming show would be great as they could do something like reveal the tributes from 1 and 2 all volunteered-you know Cato and Clove both did- and we learn the formal process while Katniss and Peeta watch the replay on the train.) Maybe it's an automatic one for one and the first person to shout gets to switch and the disputes come from trying to figure out who actually made noise first.

I bet either all the Quarter Quells were planned out ahead of time and Snow just went through the papers looking for the one that would get rid of Katniss or they were only planned shortly before the announcement (my theory). It would be interesting to get more information. With Quell 1, for example, we know the tributes were voted on by the rest of their respective district. Aside from being the plot of an unbelievably horrifying movie, I could see this designed by Snow in response to even a hint of unrest in the country. A great way to stamp that out is to make them turn on themselves and voting on children for the Games would do that. I fully expect the 25th fallout to have included a lot of suicides and increase in substance abuse from the residents. Maybe Haymitch's Quell was another way to stamp that out by sending in double. We know the district unrest and Katniss defying the Capital led to the reaping of the victors so It's not hard to imagine it as a motivation for other Quells and Games. Reaping the children and siblings of victors would be a small scale way to keep people in line and the Quells would have been a larger scale version. Maybe it all was just coincidence and only 75 had machinations behind it so who knows. We saw just enough of Snow's influence on the games over four books to make anything related to the victors possible.

*Since Annie went mad after her district partner was killed I doubt she volunteered at her reaping. She was probably on the Career track but I can't see her wanting to be in the Games at all.

[Browncoat]

14 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

I thought about that and I think they were both on the Career track growing up but I'm not certain both would have volunteered at their respective reapings. Katniss didn't go into the volunteer process in the Career districts, only that it can be complicated when more than one kid does it, so we don't actually know their details. There had to be years when even the Career districts didn't see volunteers for one or both tributes* so that may have happened with 1. I can buy whichever sibling went first volunteered and was eager for fortune and glory but the bloom would have fallen off the rose pretty quickly once the Games were underway and definitely in the aftermath.

Did Cashmere and Gloss win back to back?  They might not have been as aware of the consequences if their games were close together.  Plus, I would think the capitol would keep quiet about any consequences for career tributes -- if everyone knew it wasn't all roses (heh) and sunshine after the games, the career training schools would die out pretty quickly.  They'd been doing this for 73 years by the time the first book opened.

My thought process on the volunteer/career group is that of all the potential volunteers, the boy and girl with the most potential of their age group is selected to volunteer and maybe given extra training or food or whatever, and instructed to volunteer.  The rest are instructed to keep quiet.  Sort of like pre-selecting who would try out for an Olympic team of one.

It wouldn't surprise me none of the Quells were actually pre-determined, but I'd guarantee that 75 was not.

[Taryn74]

It's pretty clear IMO that the D1 and D2 Tributes are ALWAYS 18 yo Careers who volunteered, after being trained for years. It would be interesting to see what the selection process is once they have the group of volunteers, since of course there's going to be more than one 18 year old at a time who is ready and steps up, but with it not being spelled out even in the movies we're probably never going to get an official answer. In the books D4 is also a Career District, but since none of the D4 Tributes we come to know - not even the nameless ones in the 74th Games - behave like Careers I chalk that up to Unreliable Narrator. With the books being exclusively from Katniss' viewpoint there's going to be assumptions that she's made that just aren't true, and assuming that D4 is a Career District is probably one of those things. I fanwank that she came to that conclusion because Finnick is so popular and received such expensive gifts while in the Arena. She saw him being treated like a Capitol darling and assumed that meant Career.

The D1 and D2 citizens and especially Victors were always treated better than the other Districts, because they provide the military force (D2) and luxury goods (D1) that the Capitol depends on. That's why they weren't trusted with any of the Rebel plans going into the 75th Games. So it stands to reason that Snow didn't do them dirty after winning the way he did the other Districts.

 

On 3/19/2023 at 8:11 PM, scarynikki12 said:

I bet either all the Quarter Quells were planned out ahead of time and Snow just went through the papers looking for the one that would get rid of Katniss or they were only planned shortly before the announcement (my theory).

There's a deleted scene from Catching Fire that makes it obvious that Plutarch is the one who changed the terms of the Quell. He takes out the envelope and burns it and replaces it with the one that Snow drew, after their "it's what we Gamemakers like to call 'a wrinkle' " conversation. So he was lying when he told Katniss that he had no idea she would be going into the Arena again.

[Anela]

I've been listening to the audio books, on youtube, and downloaded them on Libby, because of all the ads that interrupted every ten minutes, but haven't got back to them yet. I was listening, thinking it would help me to drop off to sleep, but insomnia is really kicking me right now. 

I would like to see this as a series, but I grit my teeth whenever Katniss feels forced into faking a romantic relationship. I just loathe love triangles. Genuine feeling is one thing, but it just ruins what were otherwise great books to me. I binged the first two, not long before the third one came out. A friend of mine loved the books, too, and she wasn't expecting to. 

[topanga]

On 5/30/2023 at 11:15 PM, Anela said:

I would like to see this as a series, but I grit my teeth whenever Katniss feels forced into faking a romantic relationship. I just loathe love triangles. Genuine feeling is one thing, but it just ruins what were otherwise great books to me. I binged the first two, not long before the third one came out. A friend of mine loved the books, too, and she wasn't expecting to. 

I'd argue that for Katniss, the faked romance was purely for survival. The love triangle was a very small part of the books -- Katniss had conflicted feelings about both Peeta and Gale, but romantic feelings were never on her priority list. 

The movies, especially the marketing for the movies, played up the love triangle. PR people played it up as the "new Twilight," even though this did not seem to be Suzanne Collins's intention.