The Fall - General Discussion

[millennium]

 

And the theme that if a guy is good looking enough women totally melt before him ... that is getting annoying as hell.

 

I don't disagree, but just read some of the "Jamie Dornan! (swoon)" posts in this show forum.

[cardigirl]

I wanted to like this show, I really did.  Numerous people had recommended it to me.  But some of the detective work seemed just down right incompetent, and then the very very graphic violence of the attacks and murders, well those really did me in. 

 

Was I the only one bothered by the sexualization of the murders?  Eeesh.  I couldn't sleep well for a few days after seeing that.

[seamusk]

The crimes were very upsetting for sure. It's weird that I enjoyed it because the crimes themselves upset me a lot. I thought that the police work was fine. I'm sure there are holes but i've never seen a police drama without them so i've learned to be ok with it.

[Pike Ludwell]

So, re: the CHOICE Gibson made at the end: Does Katie have some competition now from Gibson? After all, Spector is more handsome than that new detective Gibson brought in and laid. So the theme is "women go nuts over super handsome men?" Doubtful I'll watch next season. This is either written by men who have no clue, or women with 13 year old boy-crazy sensibilities!

[Captanne]

Wait, what choice?  All I saw at the end was a lot of hanging chads (thank you, for that list, millenneum) and a helicopter thup-thup-thupping overhead.

 

The series ended with nothing accomplished.  The serial killer is dying of Convenient Plot Device and Stella is holding him on a cold, wet dirt road.

 

Did I really miss the last half hour?  I was just joking.  Because the ending I saw was shit.  (I'm just not complaining because I thought the rest of the series was mediocre and forgettable so.....forgotten.  To be fair -- I just binged all four seasons of the French "Engranages" or "Spiral" which is amazing.)

 

ETA:  I love your description, riverclown, of the possible composition of the writing staff.  This is very heavy-handed "feminism" as portrayed by the young posters I follow on Tumblr.  Or by men who have no clue.  I pointed that out in my first post about the finale, also.  Using that old line about men are afraid of women laughing at them and women are afraid of men killing them is an eye roller and a dead giveaway for sure.  The whole "show a strong woman having one-night-stands just like strong men" is also an easy parallel for behaviour.  It's just -- immature writing, imo.  But, I can deal with that -- I'm an older audience member so the writing probably isn't targeting my age viewer.

Edited January 24, 2015 by Captanne

[Pike Ludwell]

Wait, what choice?  All I saw at the end was a lot of hanging chads (thank you, for that list, millenneum) and a helicopter thup-thup-thupping overhead.

 

 

A fellow DETECTIVE was shot too - right next to Spector - the detective she'd laid (I forget his name and no one would recognize it anyway). Why is she so concerned about the killer at that point? There is no longer a practical law enforcement reason. Why isn't she showing concern to the officer?

[roomtorome]

Probably because the wounded officer (whom she slept with) was being looked after by his partner; no reason for both women to be attending to him as far as I could tell.  

[millennium]

A fellow DETECTIVE was shot too - right next to Spector - the detective she'd laid (I forget his name and no one would recognize it anyway). Why is she so concerned about the killer at that point? There is no longer a practical law enforcement reason. Why isn't she showing concern to the officer?

 

The way I saw it, Merlin was hit in his kevlar vest and was not seriously injured (just like Dani earlier).   Did anyone see blood on him? 

 

Spector, meanwhile, appeared to have two holes in his chest.   Why would Stella cradle him like that and seem frantic to keep him alive?   So that he can face justice.    To die looking up at the sky, under a canopy of trees, was too good for that monster.   It would have been the next best thing to escape.  For the sake of his victims and their families, who deserve justice, closure, and some sense of retribution, Spector must be kept alive so that he can be confronted with his crimes in a court of law.   If Stella appeared alarmed and concerned, it's because she saw it all slipping away.

 

Many have questioned the "I love you" message scratched into Rose's forearm.   I don't think there can be any interpretation other than it was a last message to her family, a coda to "I love and I am loved" (that actress truly brought it on the videotape).  

 

Speaking of the video, I had to laugh during Stella's face-to-face with Spector when Stella directed him to the part where he filmed himself asking "Why are you watching this, you sick shit?"   "Who are you talking to?" she asked.  "Yourself? " and then, "People who like to read about and watch movies about people like you?"  

 

Meaning us!  LOL, a show that shames its viewers!

[Captanne]

Oh, I didn't even see that as a choice.  Totally went soaring over my head.  Stella had been so obsessed with Redheaded Killer that I never for one instant thought she'd go to anyone else.....

[pasdetrois]

I binge-watched Season 2 the past couple nights. Like most UK crime series I enjoyed this.

 

However:

 

 

Stella must have been really slumming when she slept with him.

How many colleagues has Stella had sex with over two seasons - three? Plus her sexual offer to the coroner? Seems unrealistic and wanders over to the Magical Vagina trope. Pretty rare in the real world, at least for a female senior officer. It would seem more realistic if she was having one-night stands with casual acquaintances.

 

 

I eventually became quite fatigued with everyone always talking like they had just popped two Xanax and then gone to a funeral.

 

I disliked GA's portrayal of Stella in the early episodes, where she shows absolutely no emotion at all. I don't like over-emoting acting either, but the character is more interesting when she shows a spark of humanity and interest. And GA's dark roots in the final episode bugged me.

 

 

 

those tight skirts didn't do her really, really gorgeous figure any favours.

 

 

Well, they did hoist up her boobs in one of her silk nightgown scenes.

 

The scariest character for me was the imprisoned priest. And the actor nailed it.

 

And I really liked Stella's speech telling Eyebrows Boss that he crossed the line in a manner similar to the rapist/killer.

 

 

Edited January 25, 2015 by pasdetrois

[Captanne]

Wow, pasdetrois, we watched the same show with the same responses.  Out of all of my complaints, the performance by the priest was chilling.  I wish he'd been the Redheaded Killer whose name I don't remember.

 

ETA:  Her response to Eyebrows Boss (™, you) was brilliantly written and performed and plotted.  Much, MUCH more effective than Stella spouting generalizations in teenage-quality aphorisms.

 

Also, bras when you sleep?  Women don't do that.  Jesus, male writers, here's a protip:  SLEEP WITH A WOMAN FOR ONCE IN YOUR LIFE BEFORE WRITING ABOUT THEM, WILL YOU?  Or at least ask one and get your fucking facts straight.  (As for why, in God's name, GA didn't put the kibosh on that bullshit immediately, is completely and utterly (udderly?  Heh.  I couldn't contain myself) baffling.)

Edited January 25, 2015 by Captanne

[TyranAmiros]

I didn't mind the "Stella has sex with several men" bit, because I think it pointed out the double standard.  If the genders of all the characters involved had been swapped, it would have been a very problematic situation (Eyebrows Boss as a woman who just couldn't get over a relationship, GA's character basically ordering an underling to come back to his hotel and have sex with him).  By doing it this way, it got to explore the relationship between gender and roles in sex.

 

I may be alone here, but my impression was that Spector was stringing GA along in their interview, giving her answers he thought she wanted to hear.  The way he kept changing his argument and never quite being straightforward made me think that he was probing GA to see how she'd respond as much as she was trying to get Rose's location out of him. 

 

The show did leave a bit unanswered, but it felt to me that was intentional--loose ends for a potential third season.  Maybe that's just because I have so many ideas of where these characters could go for another four-six episodes to wrap certain things up. 

[ganesh]

I didn't mind the "Stella has sex with several men" bit, because I think it pointed out the double standard.

 

I think that was the point. She even said it in S1: Is it because I fucked him?

 

Not for nothing, I don't even think she had a lot of sex anyway. One may argue having sex with co workers invites problems, but still. 

[jeansheridan]

Definitely no Scully. Scully would have run into the woods looking for a potentially live kidnap victim . Stella frakking strolled everywhere. The only speed we ever saw was Paul sprinting that one time. And the cops lost him of course.

This show had potential but it consistently missed the mark. Stella should have hooked up with wiseass Martin (when he mirrored back at her, that was the first time Stella seemed human to me).

Anderson made Stella seem smart but the script/plot was just....frustrating. No energy. The idea of saving Rose was a good one. That should have created urgency. But no. The pacing was so off!

I was almost grateful to have Jimmy show up because he had energy in his scenes. Every scene he was in felt dangerous. But the hoops the show went through to have him there! Gah.

Captanne, women of a certain age sometimes sleep in bras. I do. Not pushup bras but workout ones. The support feels good.

Edited January 25, 2015 by jeansheridan

[Captanne]

Bras:  Support and a "hug" (see: Thundershirts, which do work) is one thing.  Stella was not wearing a bra for comfort.  That was a wardrobe decision by the costume crew.  (Or, more likely, it was a wardrobe decision by Gillian Anderson because I'm sure she could have said no.)  I'm not sure what "of a certain age" means (it could mean anything -- which doesn't even bring into it women who have had surgeries for any given reason who might find comfort in a bra while lying down) but -- the point remains, that is not why the actress was clearly wearing support while supposedly in a silky negligee.  

 

ETA:  I think I sound more strident than I feel about women at night in bras.  It's just that for a series so clearly hepped up on making the point that Stella is a strong, "modern" woman -- putting her in breast underwear while wearing a negligee is just so jarringly incongruous.  

 

For me.  Only for me.  I found it incongruous and weird.  Maybe because I'm so old I remember the 60s when being an empowered woman meant burning the whole damned bra thing and was a statement of strength and independence.

Edited January 25, 2015 by Captanne

[pasdetrois]

It did strike me as a vain decision on GA's part. I'm pretty sure she was wearing invisible push-up support combined with under-padding. One reason I enjoy UK productions (see Happy Valley and Broadchurch) is that many of the actresses rely less on this kind of thing. GA is very beautiful, but she also strikes me as quite "Hollywood."

[ichbin]

I prefer stories to be tied up neatly, so of course I was disappointed.  If I want to create my own ending, I'd be writing screenplays instead of being solely a viewer.  I really dislike ambiguous endings if a show wasn't already renewed and there is any possibility that the ending is in fact the series finale rather than season finale. 

 

I've had enough of the Paul Spencer character now and if there is  a third season I don't want it to be about a trial with issues about evidence, etc.  Nor do I want to see a manhunt if he survives and somehow manages to escape.  Please let it begin with mentinon of his post trial incarceration and nothing more.

 

I realy hope a third season will not feature Katy.  She was featured so much (too much) in the second series and her last scene when she was with her friend didnt seem final.  The character is too annoying for my taste. 

 

I enjoyed the series up until the last episode which had too many WTF moments, not the least of which being that slow stroll through the woods.

[Finis Terre]

It did strike me as a vain decision on GA's part. I'm pretty sure she was wearing invisible push-up support combined with under-padding. 

Vanity could play a part, but the more likely reason was simply the nipple factor (consult Straightheads in order to fully understand the "problem" ;)).

I prefer stories to be tied up neatly, so of course I was disappointed.  If I want to create my own ending, I'd be writing screenplays instead of being solely a viewer.  I really dislike ambiguous endings if a show wasn't already renewed and there is any possibility that the ending is in fact the series finale rather than season finale. 

 

I've had enough of the Paul Spencer character now and if there is  a third season I don't want it to be about a trial with issues about evidence, etc.  Nor do I want to see a manhunt if he survives and somehow manages to escape.  Please let it begin with mentinon of his post trial incarceration and nothing more.

 

I realy hope a third season will not feature Katy.  She was featured so much (too much) in the second series and her last scene when she was with her friend didnt seem final.  The character is too annoying for my taste. 

 

I enjoyed the series up until the last episode which had too many WTF moments, not the least of which being that slow stroll through the woods.

 

If season 3 happens (and I hope many more seasons of The Fall will happen), it will need a new serial killer for at least two reasons: 1. Spector is boring; 2. His story was told. If it depended on me, I would also move the production to a different country (Scotland? Wales? Ireland?) and to a bigger city. I wouldn't even mind Gibson working in London: there are ways of telling the story in a fresh way even if London is a frequently used location for crime dramas. 

Edited January 26, 2015 by Finis Terre

[Hava]

Definitely no Scully. Scully would have run into the woods looking for a potentially live kidnap victim . Stella frakking strolled everywhere. The only speed we ever saw was Paul sprinting that one time. And the cops lost him of course.

 

Anderson made Stella seem smart but the script/plot was just....frustrating. No energy. The idea of saving Rose was a good one. That should have created urgency. But no. The pacing was so off!

 

 

Definitely. I completely agree with you about the lack of urgency. It was so odd and frustrating to watch Stella talk and act in such a slow and measured manner. I was so happy she finally ran in the final scene, but it was to save the serial killer. Go figure.

 

Unfortunately, the second season did not match the quality of the first season. For me, it was so frustrating to watch the police try to catch Spector for 6 episodes, when it felt like they were right on his heels in the last episode of season 1. I was SHOCKED when they had all of this information pointing to him (including an uncanny picture!) and it still took them a few episodes to make the connection.

 

In the end, I was not satisfied with the show. If the show tried to clarify somewhat why Spector did the things he did, they failed because I was even more confused at the end.

[dramachick]

Whew, what a ride!

 

Gillian Anderson embodied Stella Gibson as one of the best protagonists ever. So brilliant, yet so flawed. She was an excellent cop, but she made it impossible for her colleagues to make real connections to her on a personal level due to her self-centered nature. The wall she put up went beyond turning the male-female sexual dynamic on its head, regardless of whatever she said. She showed no personal interest in anyone, man or woman, beyond how her needs could be served. There was something in Stella's core that caused her to set herself apart from other people. She made Jane Tennyson look relatively warm and cuddly.

 

Paul Spector, of course, overestimated his own intelligence as sociopaths are wont to do. When he finally came face to face with Stella, it became painfully obvious to him that he had been outmaneuvered by a superior wit. That's why he had that maniacal grin on his face as he lay wounded in her arms. The only way he could beat Stella was to die before trial, and he was ecstatic to see her in such extreme emotional distress at the prospect of his death. If there's a third series, I hope it's a new case with a throw-away line about Spector rotting away in prison. Kudos to Jamie Dornan for striking just the right balance of charm and creep in this role.

 

All the other actors gave great performances, and I especially liked Rose and crazy-ass Katie. I hope there's a third series!

 

[Nanrad]

 And no password protection on a laptop holding important criminal investigation evidence. Very unimpressed. 

 

What the heck with the bearded police officer coming after Stella like she was some sort of sex pez dispenser? Casual sex with strapping young officer = casual sex with anyone who asks, eh? He really is a weak little man with no sense of integrity. Lose his job? The cops working for Monroe were afraid for their lives and held it together better!

In the first season, we found out that they had an affair before the series started and he never got over her. He told her once in the bathroom that he would've (would) left (leave) his wife for her and she said that'd be a mistake. 

 

TBH, she did have a password. I remember her putting the password in before Spector broke in as well as after. So, Spector cracked it somehow.

[Flannery Tanner]

The burnt car was Paul's car from Season 1. Right before the family went to Scotland he loaded the mannequin and a bunch of journals into the trunk, took it to the quarry and torched it.

I have no idea why so many police cars suddenly descended on it at the end of this episode, but it's not because Rose is in it.

[teddysmom]

I am only up to 2-2 and have only one comment...a serial killer with a stalker.....Part of me wants to laugh.  Part of me wants to cry.

 

I did just burst out laughing when Paul & Sally are talking and she tells him how cold he was when they were in Scotland his reply is that he had food poisoning. WTF.    God if only I hadn't had sushi, three women would be alive. 

 

So was Katie pulling a Fatal Attraction deal when she took Olivia?  Was that just to fuck with Paul & Sally?  

 

Another great laugh - there's a scene in 50 shades trailer where Christian is buying ropes and cable ties and tape at whatshername's hardware store and she asks him if he's a serial killer and he replies "not today".  Pretty meta. 

[Kip Hackman]

as much as I liked S1, this just felt like a CBS procedural wearing better makeup.

 

About sums it up for me.

[katysax]

Cracking a windows password if you have physical access to the computer is ridiculously (as in frightening if you care about the security of your computer)  easy to do. 

[Bebecat]

I really enjoyed this series. Most television is so mediocre, in my opinion, that I am not going to nitpick a series that kept me riveted the whole time. Also enjoyed "The Killing" and "Broadchurch" as well as my favorite, "Spiral" and wish there were more shows as compelling. (Liked "Happy Valley" too, as well as a few other non-USA shows. (Durham County, a Canadian police procedural/crime show is also a really intense one).

I like Stella's character. I don't view her as "sexually liberated" so much as "damaged" by whatever her past issues were, and using sex as a physical release and not to form bonds or relationships. By sleeping with a lot of different people she can avoid messy emotions, for the most part. I also love her wardrobe. She looked amazing.

[Captanne]

Spiral (Engranages) is so good it's unreal.  There is a forum here!

 

I did not find The Fall anywhere near it in calibre of ...well, anything.

[Nanrad]

RE: bras...I always sleep with mine on, but I can't speak for other women. 

[Captanne]

An underwire support bra under a filmy negligee?  Huh.  Que sera, sera.  Personally, I sleep in the nude.  TMI?

 

Whatever we do -- it struck me as out of character for Stella.

Edited February 7, 2015 by Captanne

[paramitch]

I personally loved this, and thought season 2 was stronger than season 1. For me, it was a natural dramatic escalation and closure that, most of all for me, skillfully and suspensefully addressed the huge and painstaking amount of procedural and administrative work necessary to bring in a killer (especially when so many US shows would simply end at "We got him!"). It all added to the visceral and real sense to me -- even the constant background repetitions of who was doing what, and where, and who was watching them, etc. I also thought the two leads -- GA especially -- were absolutely sensational. Anderson's work here is easily among the best she's done, and I so appreciate that Dornan is willing to play scenes small and quiet (a preference of mine the older I get). 

 

My favorite thing about the finale is that it cemented, once and for all, exactly what Gibson feels. She has been painted as 'cold' and yet we saw here that she feels things deeply (something Spector 'mirrored' inadvertently to her in their interview), and was frantic to find Rose. I thought GA was fantastic here and that the interrogation between Gibson and Spector was riveting, not least because Gibson dared to ask Paul questions that were both clinical yet genuinely interested and caring, despite her quiet horror at what they revealed. That final interrogation and Stella's final moments with Paul reminded me of William Peterson's beautiful understated moment in the movie Manhunter (based on Thomas Harris's Red Dragon) when he shows real sympathy for the abused child the killer once was, yet it won't slow him for a moment in catching the killer he became. That is Stella to me in a nutshell. She feels empathy for everyone, but she will do whatever it takes to catch those who kill.

 

I really liked Gibson this episode - from telling Constable McSad Eyes the truth about what he had done, or attempted to do in her hotel room, in absolute blunt terms - to telling Merlin that while Spector seems fascinating to him, he scares the shit out of her. I know Spector referenced abuse in her history, from her dad, but given a lack of reaction without even a blink (and the deleted scene from the first season) I wonder if he was grasping at straws and came up empty. After all, I feel like some part of raising the awesomeness of Stella Gibson came from both parents.

 

Great points. I love John Lynch, and was so interested in his casting, as I do feel his sad lieutenant was somewhat against type -- he can be such a charismatic presence. But I loved the way Stella called him on his ingrained sexism -- one moment he's forcing himself on her (which Stella terrifically thwarted), the next he's her white knight wanting to rescue her. It was ridiculous, creepy, and absolutely believable, as they're commonplace traits (and we saw them grotesquely magnified in Jimmy -- I love my wife! No one beats her but me!). When it comes to agendas against women, Paul is the calculating superego. Jimmy is the raging id. Both are depressingly believable.

New dude is creepy, but it would be pretty trite for him to be a nascent serial killer. I love how he got casual with her once they hit the station and she was all "don't come if I didn't send for you." Lady just had her deepest, nastiest, sexual musings thrown in her face, then went back to her hotel and banged you. She compartmentalizes like a boss, and she is your boss, literally. I like how the gray-haired cop just raised his eyebrows when they came in the same car. At least he's made no indication that he thinks he deserves a ride on the merry-go-round, unlike Chief Angsty Eyebrows.

I thought Tom was cool and competent (and nice to see the actor move on from the steaming pile of crap that was the "Merlin" finale -- don't even get me started). I definitely didn't find him creepy. His admitting to fascination with Paul led to what was easily one of my favorite moments -- just in case the audience has been lulled by the abs or eyes, Stella says bluntly and with quiet anguish, "This man is grotesque and no, I am not fascinated, and yes, I will spend everything I have to protect others from him." Also, Stella's affair with her boss/Lt. seems to have taken place 9 years ago (when, FWIW, John Lynch was pretty charismatic and smoking hot).

 

I actually like this guy - I think his name is Eastman (grey haired cop). Watching closely, it's apparent that he doesn't really LIKE Stella (nor she him), but he does seem to respect her. His reaction to her turning up with Merlin was amusement, not judgment, and when he questioned her decision over whether Merlin was the right guy to monitor Spector because of their respective sizes (I was thinking the same thing; Colin Morgan is a slender guy), he didn't push the issue and he DEFINITELY didn't insinuate that she had made the call because she'd spent the night with him.

 

Stella has had to put up with male bullshit from at least four other colleges (Detective McSad Eyes, Officer Who Sends Unasked For Selfies After One-Night-Stand, Barely Competent Beard Guy who makes sexist jokes, and Merlin "did we just fuck because you have the hots for the serial killer?") but after she gave Eastman her little "woman fucks man" speech, he's been off her case.

I don't agree at all. While I loved her takedown of Eastwood in S1 (it's one of my all-time moments in any show ever), this season showed he was still barely tolerating her, was promoted above her in more than one scenario to avoid scandal, and judging her on a constant smirking basis. And every time he leered in anticipation of Stella giving in to her weak womanly urges, I gritted my teeth. He wasn't understanding. He was biding his time and waiting to be able to judge her again. So she slept with Tom, a competent (I think an important aspect) and attractive co-worker at a moment when the case was pretty much sewn up -- no big deal. But the idea that this man is sitting around literally smirking and waiting to judge her for behavior that he would high-five in a man just turned my stomach.

Hmm. I skipped ahead in season two to the finale when I realized Rose was going to be captive the whole season and I was getting frustrated with the slow pacing. The ending was unsatisafying, but this show is clearly supposed to be taking a page from the Nordic Noir, Forbrydelsen/The Killing playbook where the ending is always both contrived/messy and unsatisfying.

I had to finally give up on Nordic noir (and still feel guilt over not finishing Wallender), but for me this show is much different. It's often quiet, but I adored the ways the quietness matched the actual procedural work and analysis and even administration that go into catching a killer. So many shows and movies would have ended in episode 2 of this show ("Yay! we know who he is!") when "The Fall" went to great and (to me) fascinating pains to show us how much work, money and man-hours can go into a manhunt. I loved it, found it riveting, loved the acting and subtext, and found it vastly superior to "The Killing" (or "Broadchurch," which I hated so much I still can't talk about it -- I hate writers who 'cheat' their outcomes).

 

I also love the spice of cultural difference. U.S. CBS shows would never take the time or care to address the sheer mountain of administrative and procedural work necessary to truly catch a killer, and this show did so really elegantly and with real suspense.

 

But, if someone's head isn't chopped off, sexually assaulted, blown up, eaten, dismembered then it's all "this show is SO BORING." 

I don't need that all the time. This show is very much a character study. As much as the current season was about finally catching Spector and getting he and Stella together in a scene, one could argue that it's more about gender issues. 

 

The really indelible scene for me was when Stella said to her mopey bearded not-bf, "You came on to me. I refused. You disregarded me." And then the follow up with women laugh at us/men might kill us. 

 

Not that I've ever forced myself on anyone, but being a guy, I've gotten drunk and a little handsey a couple of times. I actually said "jesus fuck" out loud on the plane. GA delivered the line just so cold. It was more fuck you than saying "fuck you." She basically was like, 'your existence is irrelevant to me now.'

 

I loved this entire post, and I think what you pinpointed is actually and absolutely the heart of this show. It's about men and women. About who is the object and who is the subject. And I loved that Gibson, as cold as she appeared, was both unwavering in her refusal of her boss's overtures (and sympathetic with his woes later) while also going, "Um, you tried to freaking force yourself on me. Just sayin'.").

 

Which brings me to Stella's incredible monologue about fear, about how men fear being laughed at -- and how women? Fear violence. The gulf between the two is staggering. For me, Stella is all the more admirable because she is so determined to acknowledge that difference and stomp all over it at the same time.

 

I was beyond bored with pretty boy serial killer way too soon.

I wasn't. I loved the ways the show and storyline addressed Paul's beauty and how he has used it to further his agenda. Paul is a handsome, young white male, and to watch him use his looks and charm to further his own murderous ends I found incredibly chilling, yet timely. Now more than ever in a social media world, Paul is an object lesson, a reminder that all that glitters is not gold. I really enjoyed Dornan in the role of Paul, and loved the way (most of all) he and the show both acknowledged his handsomeness while also showing us that this was simply yet another tool in his murderer's toolbox. I didn't find it titillating (or boring); I found it disturbing and sad. (I went to FSU not long after Ted Bundy, another handsome yet brutal serial killer, and I still remember having to sleep in communal sleeping porches after Bundy's Chi Omega murders.)

 

So the theme is "women go nuts over super handsome men?" Doubtful I'll watch next season. This is either written by men who have no clue, or women with 13 year old boy-crazy sensibilities!

Really? This entire storyline was about how an attractive man can lure women into acceptance and docility even in the face of danger or death. I absolutely disagree that it was all a setup so that we can hold our breaths to see who Stella saves in the end. Yes, the show was written by a man, but for me, it gave us some thoughtful and poignant female points of view throughout and to an unusual degree.

 

I didn't mind the "Stella has sex with several men" bit, because I think it pointed out the double standard. 

Thank you. Stella slept with two men in two seasons -- one a casual one-nighter, the other with a co-worker as the case wrapped up. She hit on another friend (Panjabi) and regretted it the next day, relieved that nothing happened. I'm not exactly clutching my pearls over her scandalous behavior. 

I think I sound more strident than I feel about women at night in bras.  It's just that for a series so clearly hepped up on making the point that Stella is a strong, "modern" woman -- putting her in breast underwear while wearing a negligee is just so jarringly incongruous.

 

I liked it precisely because it was weird and felt like a character choice. Paul is a murderer and crazy but he totally had Stella's number when he addressed her self-regard and her knowledge of being watched. It  made sense to me, therefore, that Stella would sleep in her bra. And the support also means that, unlike many other show topics, GA at least won't have to deal with posters minutely critiquing her breasts and how much they do or do not droop (don't even get me started on "Outlander").

 

My question for others:  Do you think Paul left Rose alive to prove something to Gibson? Or because he simply could not bring himself to kill her because he'd known and slept with her in the past?

Edited February 7, 2015 by paramitch

[joelene]

Great post, paramitch! I agree with pretty much everything you said.

My question for others: Do you think Paul left Rose alive to prove something to Gibson? Or because he simply could not bring himself to kill her because he'd known and slept with her in the past?

I took it as he couldn't bring himself to kill her because she was a mother. Remember, he expressed regret over having killed Sarah Kay when he found out she had been pregnant.

[Ravenya003]

Great post paramitch!

 

I don't agree at all. While I loved her takedown of Eastwood in S1 (it's one of my all-time moments in any show ever), this season showed he was still barely tolerating her, was promoted above her in more than one scenario to avoid scandal, and judging her on a constant smirking basis. And every time he leered in anticipation of Stella giving in to her weak womanly urges, I gritted my teeth. He wasn't understanding. He was biding his time and waiting to be able to judge her again. So she slept with Tom, a competent (I think an important aspect) and attractive co-worker at a moment when the case was pretty much sewn up -- no big deal. But the idea that this man is sitting around literally smirking and waiting to judge her for behavior that he would high-five in a man just turned my stomach.

 

 

What's great about this show is that it's not interested in telling an audience what to think/feel, which means almost everything is up for interpretation. That we could come to such drastically different conclusions about the same character is evidence of this.

 

But having watched the show for a second time, I stand by what I wrote. In the first season, Eastman was definitely a creep, but after the corrupt cop shot himself in Eastman's office, it was Stella who took control of the situation and calmed Eastman down - after which he sincerely thanks her. So I do think it's a case of Eastman making a sexist snap judgement on Stella, then realizing her superior worth in a crisis, and respecting her authority (to quote South Park). Of course, if he turns up again in season three, we'll have all new material to cross-examine. 

[John Potts]

joelene I took it as he couldn't bring himself to kill her because she was a mother.

 

 

I think the point was that Spector divides the world into "People" and "Victims" - mothers are automatically "people" (for possibly Freudian reasons) so he couldn't kill her. But I'm not a Neitzche Wannabe or a serial killer (take my word for it!) so maybe I'm wrong.

[Captanne]

I think Spector was pretty ill-defined.  If the writers felt they had researched him and presented a "whole" character, that didn't come across to me.  

 

My biggest problem with his consistency (or lack thereof) was finally pointed out by Stella in that great interrogation scene:  If you are so absorbed with protecting children, then why are you raping "Little Evil Teenager"?  

 

Speaking of which -- did he and the stupid teenybot ever have sex?  I don't remember.

 

So rape may be too strong a word -- but he certainly was emotionally abusing her by leading her on and putting her in a position to be accessory to murder.

[joelene]

Speaking of which -- did he and the stupid teenybot ever have sex? I don't remember.

So rape may be too strong a word -- but he certainly was emotionally abusing her by leading her on and putting her in a position to be accessory to murder.

They had cam sex. It was implied, at least, that he showed his dong and "pleasured himself".

In regards to Katie, well, cry me a river. He did lead her in the first season, I guess. Or rather she flirted with him and he flirted back and then he got rough with her over that lock of hair she wouldn't stop asking about. Don't blame her for any of that.

However, after that she pretty much stalked him, snatched his daughter, blackmailed and wore him down until he figured he might as well let her do his bidding since she wouldn't take no for an answer. This wasn't just some innocent girl. At least not to my eyes.

Edited February 8, 2015 by joelene

[Captanne]

Very true, Joelene.  On the other hand, she is a child in the eyes of the law.  She can't buy a car legally or (if it were the US) vote.  In the eyes of the law, she's a child.  

 

That is a very debatable topic and I, for one, find it easier in casual conversation to use the legal definition of child a "bright line" not to be crossed.  (Whatever age that jurisdiction may use -- I default to a generous 18 to keep it even simpler.  But that's just me.  It is ​very debatable.  I just default to not cutting the clear adult any slack at all.  Harm a child, no matter how complicit the child is, and I run out of patience very quickly.)

Edited February 8, 2015 by Captanne

[joelene]

Debatable indeed! I just don't see this situation as black and white at all. Katie was just too complicit in my eyes so I can't cut her much slack either after her behaviour. There is no slack to be cut. Okay I suppose I am cutting Paul some slack because of that but it helps that they didn't actually have sex. At most it was indecent exposure to a minor, but it wasn't even that since she had turned 16. Now, this would in my eyes still be gross in most cases but here, from Paul's point of view, I think he saw it as giving her "a reward", a reward she had bent over backwards getting, and he had enough restraint to only give it to her via webcam. I don't even know if he was interested in doing anything else with her since he had ample opportunity.

Anyway, that's my view on the sex stuff, but I know you weren't just talking about that part of their twisted relationship, and in the end he did use her love and/or lust for him to get her to do bad things, but Katie was just too sociopathic for me to have any empathy for. When she told Paul she had lied for him and given him an alibi he seemed genuinely surprised. She did a lot of things he never even asked him to do and to me it seemed he could have started using and influencing her a lot sooner than he did. I ran out of patience for Katie a lot more than I did Paul.

Edited February 8, 2015 by joelene

[Captanne]

Oh, I thought Katie was so evil she was almost cartoonish.  I did a lot of eye-rolling, to be sure.  I just hold him responsible as the adult in the situation.

[joelene]

He's responsible, I just don't hold it against him, if that makes sense. There's plenty of other actions to hold against him.

Edited February 8, 2015 by joelene

[Duke2801]

I thought it was a pretty great show. Yes, certainly I can nitpick a few things here and there, but overall, it kept me riveted from the first episode through the 11th. I didn't find it "slow" at all either--quite the opposite in fact.  I was usually surprised when the credits came up and realized that an hour had passed already. 

 

My biggest problem with his consistency (or lack thereof) was finally pointed out by Stella in that great interrogation scene:  If you are so absorbed with protecting children, then why are you raping "Little Evil Teenager"?

 

 

As it was pointed out, I don't think he saw her as a "child."  I mean, she was light years away from being an innocent kid like Olivia. 

 

ETA:  I think I sound more strident than I feel about women at night in bras.  It's just that for a series so clearly hepped up on making the point that Stella is a strong, "modern" woman -- putting her in breast underwear while wearing a negligee is just so jarringly incongruous.

 

 

Coincidentally I was just having dinner with 3 girlfriends recently and one of my friends told us she sleeps with a bra-every single night.  She is somebody who is extremely driven, highly-organized, and very successful in her field.  Not unlike Stella. So yes, there certainly are "real" woman out there who wear bras to bed. And maybe even a certain "type" of woman who is more likely to wear one than not.

[Captanne]

Okay, to put this "to bed" so to speak (because I'm over it.)  Women who wear bras to bed are one thing.  Whether it's a sports bra to hold the breasts snugly against the body (like the "hug" shirts) or it's a post-surgery breast cancer mastectomy bra or it's to keep from getting milk leakage on the sheets -- those are all for her comfort and cleanliness.  (Like women who wear diapers to bed to keep from getting blood on the sheets.)

 

Stella's bra was an underwire pushup bra designed for appearance.  It was designed for image not for comfort.  To me, and only to me, it was clearly a vanity decision by wardrobe and/or the actress.  

 

The only relevance here is that it was jarring and took this viewer immediately out of the fictitious reality of the show's moment.  

 

She could have just as easily been wearing a red, rubber clown nose.  The effect would be the same.

 

I've been in these stubborn back-and-forth conversations before so I'm checking out of this one.

[gesundheit]

Since the entirety of seasons 1 and 2 took place in 2012, I believe, I wonder if the third season will jump ahead to present day. 

 

How did Jimmy not know that Paul was a serial killer? According to Katie's friend, all the information was very public. It seemed a little off to me that he and the reporter were out of the loop on that one.

[ganesh]

I hope it doesn't jump in time with ending on a cliffhanger. There's a lot going on.

[Duke2801]

Okay, to put this "to bed" so to speak (because I'm over it.)  Women who wear bras to bed are one thing.  Whether it's a sports bra to hold the breasts snugly against the body (like the "hug" shirts) or it's a post-surgery breast cancer mastectomy bra or it's to keep from getting milk leakage on the sheets -- those are all for her comfort and cleanliness.  (Like women who wear diapers to bed to keep from getting blood on the sheets.)

 

Stella's bra was an underwire pushup bra designed for appearance.  It was designed for image not for comfort.  To me, and only to me, it was clearly a vanity decision by wardrobe and/or the actress.  

 

The only relevance here is that it was jarring and took this viewer immediately out of the fictitious reality of the show's moment.  

 

She could have just as easily been wearing a red, rubber clown nose.  The effect would be the same.

 

I've been in these stubborn back-and-forth conversations before so I'm checking out of this one.

 

LOL.  Alrighty then.  

 

The series ended with nothing accomplished.  The serial killer is dying of Convenient Plot Device and Stella is holding him on a cold, wet dirt road.

 

 

Well they accomplished catching a serial killer and preventing further murders.  So there is that.

[mledawn]

I'm not sure I was satisfied by the ending, so I will need to rewatch.

 

I thought that the other officers on scene were taken aback by Stella's reaction to Paul being shot, but I don't think it was, "why are you upset about him when Merlin is here also shot". I felt it was more along the lines of, "why are you so upset about him" full stop.

 

As a Canadian, the paedophile priest was a shocking turn of events as the actor (Sean McGinley) played the loveable Malachy Doyle in CBC's Republic of Doyle for six years. Well done by him, he was a total creepfest.

[Starla]

OMG Merlin.

[Missbusy2000]

I loved this episode a lot! To me, the driving force of the show was the complex relationship between Stella and Spector and we finally got the pay off of seeing them interact face to face. Her goading him with the red nails during the press conference, their brief run in in the hallway, him breaking into her hotel and getting to know her better than anyone else on the entire show by reading her dream diary. It was what fascinated me the most and getting to see them in the same room was really satisfying!

 

The nature of their relationship was always ambiguous to me but I think it finally clicked together in a really surprising way this last episode.  I always felt that Spector viewed Stella as a mother figure, therefor a potential or ultimate victim. In the end, after their interaction, I think the real dynamic between them is Stella as a daughter figure. There were constant cuts between Stella and Olivia in the scene where Spector sees her for the last time, same hair colour, often the actresses had their head at the same angle. 

 

The fact that she is the only woman that Spector seems to have any respect for, other than his daughter ("I'll speak to Stella and Stella only"). He seemed so relieved to talk to her, finally be himself and explain his true world view to someone he thought his equal. It was great to see Jamie Dornan finally let some of this built up tension out, he had played Spector so restrained the entire series I almost didn't believe he was capable of the crimes until his interview with Stella and he started to show his true nature. 

 

Also, his jabs at her for preoccupation with her father, wanting to have sex with him or having been molested. She seemed really shaken by him saying this, I think there was some truth there. Her diary was proof that he was the only man she is interested in. Him and Spector! Finally how she holds him in the end. Her expression seems like she's clinging desperately to a father figure, his as though he's looking up to someone much younger, how he looks upon his daughter. 

 

I feel like there were a few hints earlier in the series as well, when Olivia says she wants to marry her father out of the blue. Kind of an odd thing for a child to say. Perhaps a foreshadowing to Stella's odd relationship with her father? I think Stella's daddy issues were really at play in this relationship and that's how I see her and Spector's back and forth in the end. At the very least it's how he finally got the upper hand over her, if it can be said he did that. I'd be interested to see how Stella's strong steely character perseveres after all of this trauma. Although I know she'll be back on top somehow as she is one bad ass detective. 

[mledawn]

I feel like there were a few hints earlier in the series as well, when Olivia says she wants to marry her father out of the blue. Kind of an odd thing for a child to say.

 

It's actually common for a young girl to say that - it's been a long time since my uni psych class, but it's identified as a stage in development.

 

I am more inclined to see Stella as a mother figure, and he did he seemed to find joy in the end in her reaction to his dying.

Edited February 27, 2015 by mledawn

[dramachick]

Gillian Anderson and Jamie Dornan to return in BBC's The Fall

The BBC’s Gillian Anderson drama The Fall will return for a third series, finally revealing the fate of the serial killer played by Jamie Dornan.

 

The second series of the BBC2 thriller, one of the channel’s most popular dramas of last year, ended like the first, on a cliffhanger, with Dornan’s Paul Spector lying shot in the arms of detective Stella Gibson (Anderson).

 

Both stars will return for a new five-part run of the Belfast-based drama which the BBC, announcing its recommission on Tuesday, said would bring the story to a close. It is likely to air next year.

 

[Carrie Ann]

Um, hmm. I'm happy the show is coming back. Not sure I'm happy Paul Spector is coming back.