S03.E06: Guilty

[Gwen-Stacys]

Comic fans/fans of action. And I think it's interesting to see that a lot of the people who loved this week hated last week and vice versa. It's interesting to see. 

 

Comic book fans (and a lot of boys) didn't like last week but liked this week because of all the comic shout outs. I'm not a boy, but I was one who enjoyed it (I did read comics though, so....)

 

Admittedly though, I bet his answer to the cops about what he did with the body would be great.

 

"Where's the body?  Funny story!  You see, she was thought to have been dead years ago, so we, I mean I, figured that, hey, that graveside and tombstone are already there, so I might as well use it!"

 

I laugh snorted.

 

Oh, I forgot to mention the thing that I hated the most...Oliver raising a fuss over Ted having killed someone.  It was a disgusting piece of hypocrisy on Oliver's part, even worse than usual.  This was a guy who had at least 27 confirmed kills late in the first season of the show, killing crooks at times because they wouldn't listen to him.  He doesn't have the right to take the high ground when he learns another vigilante has killed someone, past or present.  Handing over a vigilante for murder (which I know he didn't do tonight) would be just as hypocritical. 

 

Thank you! I was waiting for someone to acknowledge this!! I had to pause and rewind because I thought I'd misheard.

 

One thing I will say that Smallville has over Arrow is SV's Ollie was hella charismatic. He was still a smarmy douche, but he wasn't overtly hypocritical....and he was funny. And at least acted fairly educated. He never gave off LAX bro vibes, and it was fairly believable that he could run a company (and he actually had an interest in it.). Granted, SV!Ollie's biggest island obstacle was all the mosquitos.

 

And about Laurel suddenly being capable...Laurel has held her own in fights since early season one. Case in point, one of the first few episodes when Oliver and Tommy were getting jumped in a club and she came out and basically saved them. She used to be extremely capable, but season 2 happened and I think the writers forgot that they did that? Even so, they have enough ground to stand on to say that she didn't exactly start from scratch (like others on the show).

 

Edit* Ollie also has no right to tell anyone that they can't be a vigilante. Laurel has her reasons (grounded in her belief, expressed over 1 1/2 seasons, that the little people need someone to look out for them.) and it's her perogative to do whatever she wants. He's not her father, he's not f*cking her, he's not paying her bills, he's not feeding her...He's her friend. He can make suggestions, but not demands.

 

They shouldn't have made this Oliver so Dark Knight-esque. It makes sense for Bruce Wayne to be that way because he's weird, traumatized, and highly intelligent...Oliver not so much.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Gwen-Stacys

[kayma]

And Laurel, well. I can't even get into it, honestly. The amount of blame and condescension and general assholery she throws around, while being wrong at every step, and the only person responsible for her current situation...it's astounding, really. Your heroine, ladies and gentlemen. Your leading lady. Your True Black Canary.

Yes. This so much. Every time she shows up on the screen, the show grinds to a halt for me. I honestly don't know if the problem is the character or the actress or the makeup/wardrobe. If they insist on making her some super secret vigilante, too, hopefully she'll get a spin off and be all trained and angry and sober somewhere else so I don't have to watch it.

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

I did like how Ted told Laurel to eat some protein right after her workout, because .... "in a few weeks you are going to have to pretend that a 5-foot-8, 110 pound woman can actually beat up a 6-and-a-half foot, 250 pound man with MMA training." (I may have misquoted)

Watching Arrow does require reading between the lines and filling in what is glaringly missing.

Thank you for the funny this AM.

[Delphi]

I liked the episode, it wasn't as Laurel focused as some people thought it would be.

I find myself enjoying pretty much any seen with Felicity and Roy, which there was a few of. I think Emily's and Colton's friendship really translates on screen.

Honestly the only people I couldn't stand for most the night were Oliver and Dig, completely out of character. Well not Oliver so much, he's known for occasionally being a douche to everyone. Plus he's murdered like thirty people and is suddenly better some other vigilante, you're not Batman, calm down Oliver

Edited November 13, 2014 by Delphi

[Pyramid]

Hmm, not as bad as I feared. There were a few things I liked about the episode:

 

Oliver and Roy stuff was good. Thought Roy's "Don''t abandon me" was quietly affecting. And seeing actual mentoring going on was cool.
I never read the comics but even I knew about the boxing glove arrow, good laugh there.
"Mine's bigger." Ha!

I actually thought Ted was pretty good this episode.
Team Arrow stuff good.
 

Now. On to my weekly plea to the duh-brain: Tell you father that his youngest child is dead. I know it's all about you, but he might be able to help. It's not like he's a plumber, he's a fecking detective.

Laurel in this episode, I thought was the best she's been all season. Which is like being the shiniest shit in the bowl, but to be fair I wasn't annoyed by some of her scenes, and thought that Oliver was out of line talking down to her at the start. But her order barking soon came back, as did the laser pointer when Roy told her he'd killed Sara. And this head long rush into Black Canaryhood is just insane. They had two seasons ... oh you know what, it's all been said.
 

The Dig, Oliver scene about Roy. I saw Dig talking but it was like his dialogue was written for Laurel. Weird.

 

Just had to add, "I dated him". What the fuck are you thinking Laurel!? Gah.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Pyramid

[KirkB]

No, I don't think Oliver was out of character at all. He was in full hypocritical douche mode, which is perfectly normal for him. I mean, getting on Ted for committing one murder six years ago (which he didn't even do) when he has killed far more people in a single night (Betrayal season 1, like 12 guys). And going after Laurel like he has any right to decide how she lives her life. You're in no position to tell someone they can't put on a funny costume and run across rooftops fighting crime while you are wearing a funny costume, running across rooftops fighting crime. And Laurel is a grown ass woman who can make her own decisions, neither Oliver nor Quentin have any right to tell her what to do.

 

Diggle wasn't exactly out of character either, I'm sad to say. I get where the idea comes from but he has been fairly consistent about Oliver distancing himself from people and things he believes are toxic. Not that Oliver listens but that's a different story. I'll admit the way Diggle did it here was a little harsh, since they should've determined if Roy was actually guilty before suggesting Oliver dump him.

 

Laurel screwed up by mentioning that she and the Arrow used to date, yes, but I am still far too bothered by her hiding Sara's death from Quentin and Dinah to really care about much else she does.

 

I too noticed Cupid at the earlier crime scene and walking behind Diggle's van (the camera lingered on her way too much to be random) but I had no idea who she was until the end.

[apinknightmare]

Yeah, I didn't get anything at all from last night's episode that still even hints at Oliver/Laurel at all in a romantic sense. She's always going to be in his life, he's always going to care about her, and that's really all I got from him last night. She's his friend and he cares about her, and that's that. I mean, the director couldn't even drum up friend chemistry between them, it was like Oliver was talking to a weepy beige wall.

[Delphi]

Just had to add, "I dated him". What the fuck are you thinking Laurel!? Gah.

I thought laurel was being sarcastic there's, kinda like, "mind your own business, Ted."

[Primetimer]

What do you get when a boxer meets an archer? There's only one good answer, and it's extremely silly.

Read the story

[rue721]

I like Roy and am always happy when he's got a storyline, this isn't even a complaint:  but Colton Haynes cracked me up when Oliver was setting up the Meditation Candle and asked if Roy trusted him, and Roy/CH rolled his eyes and said, "yes, of course" in the snottiest way possible. Oh Jackson, how I miss you.

[tv echo]

I could barely watch the entire episode and wanted to drop out halfway through.  It's an especially bad episode for me when I don't even have the heart or inclination to write a decent review.  Here's my reaction in a nutshell:

 

Blech... Yawn... Nausea.

[apinknightmare]

And about Laurel suddenly being capable...Laurel has held her own in fights since early season one. Case in point, one of the first few episodes when Oliver and Tommy were getting jumped in a club and she came out and basically saved them. She used to be extremely capable, but season 2 happened and I think the writers forgot that they did that? Even so, they have enough ground to stand on to say that she didn't exactly start from scratch (like others on the show).

 

Nah, they didn't forget. The writers on this show write to plot, and their stupid plots required that Laurel not be able to defend herself, so Laurel didn't defend herself. She'd still throw a punch when the scene called for it, like during City of Heroes when that gang crashed the banquet she was at, or when she clocked the mirakudude that was holding her hostage. They really did her a disservice by damseling her so damn much over the course of this show.

 

And IIRC, the only two people who have started from scratch were Oliver and Sara, who had the longest journeys and learned to fight for survival purposes. Digg is ex-military, and Roy was parkouring and fighting since his introduction. Laurel has self-defense training, so she's not starting from scratch, but she's the least experienced out of all of them. With her, though, it's not her ability to fight that concerns me. It's her terrible decision-making and tenuous grasp on what actual justice is that make her an unsuitable vigilante prospect at this time. But, Oliver started out murdering people, so I suppose that's another area where Laurel has room to grow and learn. I wish I cared enough to want to be excited to watch it.

[Carrie Ann]

A lot of Oliver's characterization this episode makes more sense if you still believe that there is any sort of romantic tension between Laurel and him, which I don't. His attitude toward Ted, the crack about his "lair" being bigger (ew stop), the shot of him carrying her out of the car. All of it just made me confused, and then I was like, "ohhhhh, do these writers still think something is going to happen there?" I mean, I'd like to believe they don't, but I don't really understand the point of any of that otherwise. There probably is none, and the writers are just lazy and fall back on the same familiar emotional beats they always use with Laurel and Oliver, but it felt off anyway because I don't see their relationship that way at all anymore. It would be nice if the writers/EPs could get on the same page about these characters. 

[apinknightmare]

This is probably really naive of me, I'll admit, because I do think she's safe because she's popular. Diggle is a fan favorite for sure, but he doesn't seem to have the same level of fandom buzz as Felicity does (probably because he's not part of a ship), and Quentin and Sara (much as I love both of them) were never beloved like Felicity seems to be. I really don't see them killing her off.

[Password]

Do my eyes deceive me? Did Oliver really carry Laurel LIKE he carried Felicity? Lauriver is a poor man's OTP. Even that is a gross overstatement.

Frankly, I still don't get Oliver and Laurel wanting to be around each other. Makes no damn sense. Friends? Nuh uh.

[Ceylon5]

Why is it that whenever there's a car accident or explosion, the women end up unconscious and the men don't?  What's that about, show?

 

Also, there are 576,000 people in Starling City (according to Amanda Waller), of which we can assume about half are men - i.e. 288,000.  And we're expected to believe that 86,000 of them (30%) are named Paco?  What?

 

And yeah, that's pretty much all I got from the episode.  Though all the focus on China White in the flashbacks makes me wonder if we should be suspecting her of Sara's murder.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Ceylon5

[Chaser]

I felt the episode was just really plot-driven. In order to get to one scene, so and so needed to happen. They wanted Oliver and Roy to bond so they had Diggle tell Oliver to drop him. In my opinion, Diggle would never do that. Diggle is leave no man behind. Diggle has fought beside Roy for months as part of a team. There was no hard evidence Roy had done it and even if he had he would have been drugged out of his mind. He was this broken kid. There is no way Diggle would say this. Laurel would. That would be in line with her character. I feel the writers knew that they had already pushed that character trait too far and having her jump to conclusions for the 4 episode in a row wouldn't do her any favors. So they gave it to Diggle. It annoys me because they already had a conflict in place they didn't need anyone to get in Oliver's face about Roy. 

 

They wanted Oliver v. Wildcat. They wanted them to be at odds and in your face about everything so it was amped up. They made him a douchebag. Some one who believes that only he has a say on nighttime costumed heroics. It was dumb. I'm glad Grant called him on it. As for implying anything between Oliver and Laurel, I didn't get any jealousy or anything romantic. Oliver is trying to protect Laurel. It kinda does make sense that he would be very aggressive about it because Oliver KNOWS Laurels history of making implusive, rash decisions that get her hurt. He knows she got beat up for doing stupid and he knows he had to unload a gun that was left around her. He doesn't trust her. At all. 

[catrox14]

IMO Laurel using some self defense =/= being trained and capable of engaging in the hard core hand to hand to the death and jumping off buildings etc that Oliver and Sara engage in. Self Defense is designed to be able to slow down an attacker in order to flee and get help. Her saving Oliver and Tommy worked because she had the element of surprise on her side. It was a publicvenue. If those guys had wanted to really take her out they would have. And as we saw with her and the guy she went after with a baseball bat, she knows enough to be a danger to herself and others. Not enough to be a smart fighter.

It's shown again here that she is not that smart as a fighter because she claims that she should have been afraid but she wasn't. A smart fighter knows fear, remembers what fear feels like so they can decide if it's fight or flight. And sometimes flight is right answer. It's being self-aware enough to retreat and reassess the situation and live to fight another day or be so well trained that you can find new tactics during a longer battle. Even self defense teaches you to how to avoid bad situations as much as how to defend yourself short term should you be faced with that scenario . it doesn't tell you to not feel fear. It teaches you what to do about it. IMO that Laurel claims she should have been afraid but wasn't sounds more crazy than anything.

[Orion]

 And going after Laurel like he has any right to decide how she lives her life. You're in no position to tell someone they can't put on a funny costume and run across rooftops fighting crime while you are wearing a funny costume, running across rooftops fighting crime. And Laurel is a grown ass woman who can make her own decisions, neither Oliver nor Quentin have any right to tell her what to do.

 

I didn't watch the episode so maybe this was addressed in the show but I think Quentin and Oliver have every right to tell her what to do since those two end up having to clean up her messes and save her when she acts without thinking.  Just in the last couple of episodes she threw Quentin's name around to gain access to a witness, she called in the riot squad and made a police situation worse to the point that Quentin had to ask her if she was using again and Oliver and Roy had to stop what they were doing to go and fix the situation, she would have shot a man not guilty of the crime she was going to shoot him for even after he provided an alibi and her actions lead to Thea being kidnapped.

 

If the show wants to have Laurel move to another city and try to fight crime there where her actions can't effect Oliver or Quentin then I agree with you, her life her choice. But in Starling City imo Quentin and Oliver should at the very least be calling her out on her dumb decisions along with getting her intense therapy and meds to deal with her anger.

[JenMD]

Also, there are 576,000 people in Starling City (according to Amanda Waller), of which we can assume about half are men - i.e. 288,000.  And we're expected to believe that 86,000 of them (30%) are named Paco?  What?

I thought that was hilarious!  I couldn't remember the number Waller gave for the total number of people, so thanks for that.  I actually thought it was higher, so that makes it even worse (and funnier).  It's like the writers don't even read what they put on the page.

 

They do get a lot done on the show in a short amount of time though, don't they?  Everything that happened in this ep, up to the tags at the end with Laurel/Ted and Cupid, happened all in the same night.  Nothing wrong with taking a little time there, show, and letting things breathe just a bit.

 

One question for those paying better attention than I did, at one point Oliver and Diggle came back to Verdant after being out (I could swear Oliver had been out as the Arrow), and Oliver walks in dressed in regular clothes.  I thought they were on their way down to the lair, but they ran into Laurel first.  Did I misread that scene and they were on their way out again?  I was so confused as to when Oliver had changed out of his Arrow gear.

[KirkB]

If the show wants to have Laurel move to another city and try to fight crime there where her actions can't effect Oliver or Quentin then I agree with you, her life her choice. But in Starling City imo Quentin and Oliver should at the very least be calling her out on her dumb decisions along with getting her intense therapy and meds to deal with her anger.

 

Oh, absolutely Quentin and Oliver should be calling Laurel out. She DOES make stupid decisions and yes, they are always the ones who have to clean up after her. But Laurel is still an adult who has the right to make her own decisions, even if they are stupid ones. Quentin and Oliver aren't exactly pillars of perfection either. They have made dumb decisions too and had to suffer for it. Oliver has every right to refuse to train Laurel and to point how risky her behavior is, but I don't think he has a right to tell Laurel she can't go somewhere else to train.

[KirkB]

Do my eyes deceive me? Did Oliver really carry Laurel LIKE he carried Felicity? Lauriver is a poor man's OTP. Even that is a gross overstatement.

 

 

Okay, I've been seeing this sort of statement around and I have what may be a silly question. How else is Oliver supposed to carry Laurel when he pulls her out of the car? She's a full grown adult. Even Oliver is going to need both hands to carry her. His only real options are to take her in his arms or sling her over his shoulder, and he has more control this way. I don't see how it has anything to do with how he carried Felicity, except that it was the same situation (ie get her away from burning vehicle).

[Carrie Ann]

Well, what would truly make the most sense and be best for Laurel is for Quentin to get all the information: Sara is dead, Oliver is the Arrow (I think he knows, but let's get it out there), and Laurel is on a self-destructive mission of vengeance.

 

She's sublimating her addiction, and the treatment should be the same. Her loved ones should stop enabling her. No cleaning up her messes; no swooping in to save her when she gets in over her head. It's hard, but parents have to leave their addict children out on the streets every day, and just pray they don't die or end up in prison. I don't think Quentin deserves to live that way, or to lose his only other child, but Laurel doesn't deserve to have this safety net all the time either. She's not facing the reality of what she's doing, or the potential consequences, because she doesn't have to. Oliver saying he'll always try to protect her because he cares about her so much is not helping. He needs to stop.

[Chaser]

Frankly, with as much as she gets grabbed she should have ramped up the training in S2. Oliver seems to equate training to fight with running around dealing justice (which should be a concern with Laurel given her history), but I'm really annoyed that he doesn't even encourage basic self-defense training for Felicity or Laurel.  

[apinknightmare]

Okay, I've been seeing this sort of statement around and I have what may be a silly question. How else is Oliver supposed to carry Laurel when he pulls her out of the car? She's a full grown adult. Even Oliver is going to need both hands to carry her. His only real options are to take her in his arms or sling her over his shoulder, and he has more control this way. I don't see how it has anything to do with how he carried Felicity, except that it was the same situation (ie get her away from burning vehicle).

 

Yeah, there was really no other way to carry her.

[writersblock51]

I think the comments about the scene where Oliver is carrying Laurel is that the car crash and the framing of the rescue are very similar to the scene with Felicity last season. The show could have written, directed and framed the entire scene differently but they didn't.

 

Add the hug between Oliver and Laurel and you've got a shipper war starting up again today on Twitter & Tumblr. 

 

I was cynical from other TV shows before this one came along so this show has merely compounded what I've already been. But I think the show knew exactly what this would look like.  Just more of the same, IMO.

Edited November 13, 2014 by writersblock51

[Ceylon5]

Okay, I've been seeing this sort of statement around and I have what may be a silly question. How else is Oliver supposed to carry Laurel when he pulls her out of the car? She's a full grown adult. Even Oliver is going to need both hands to carry her. His only real options are to take her in his arms or sling her over his shoulder, and he has more control this way. I don't see how it has anything to do with how he carried Felicity, except that it was the same situation (ie get her away from burning vehicle).

 

My objection isn't how he carried her or that it was so similar to the scene with Felicity.  As I mentioned in the episode thread - why are the women always knocked unconscious and the men aren't?  They're in the same accident/explosion, but for whatever stupid (sexist?) reasons, the writers decide to always have the woman unconscious and a man carrying her away from danger.  It's very annoying.

[apinknightmare]

Also, I'm probably in the minority, but I don't really have a problem with Oliver telling Laurel what to do with regards to her wannabe vigilantism.

 

Oliver's always been in the business of telling people what they should or should not do, and he's always been a hypocrite, very "do as I say, not as I do." He behaves this way towards other people too: Thea, Moira, Roy, Felicity, Diggle...pretty much everyone. Thankfully he's beginning to come around to realizing that he's wrong about a lot of that stuff, and hopefully he'll evolve further as the series progresses, and I'm rooting for him to get better. For now? That's who he is.

 

Laurel's not listening to him, she's doing as she damn well pleases. She wants training? She goes out and gets it. Oliver doesn't approve of who she's training with? Tough shit, she's going back for more. I'd feel differently if she was kowtowing to him, but she's not. She never has. They're both behaving in-character, while still leaving room for growth.

[apinknightmare]

My objection isn't how he carried her or that it was so similar to the scene with Felicity.  As I mentioned in the episode thread - why are the women always knocked unconscious and the men aren't?  They're in the same accident/explosion, but for whatever stupid (sexist?) reasons, the writers decide to always have the woman unconscious and a man carrying her away from danger.  It's very annoying.

 

Yeah, if they want Laurel to be a believable hero, they should've had her climb out on her own and rescue herself, similar to the way Felicity saved herself last week. Or better yet, they never should've had her crash the car, which made her look inept AGAIN, but I guess we needed that scene of him carrying her and the subsequent hospital scene to throw shippers a bone or....something.

[Chaser]

Super annoying. At least, they remembered to take her to the hospital. Like I get that they were in a bad situation, but Felicity didn't even get a comment.

 

ETA: I'm I the only one who doesn't get a shipper tease vibe between Oliver and Laurel at all? That hospital scene was nothing. It just looked like he was extending an olive branch and she was as stiff as ever. 

Edited November 13, 2014 by 10Eleven12

[quarks]

I don't understand how felicity is at fault for what Roy said to laurel, she tried to tell him not to. He is the one who blurted it out - was she supposed to tackle him?

 

 

No, but she easily could have jumped in with "Hey, about that serial killer!" and kept Roy from talking. She's a babbler; use that.  And told Roy not to say anything until she could have a forensics person check her evidence/conclusions.  Particularly bad since she knows a forensics person and a scientist. I know the show is trying to be careful not to have too many Flash references, but if you are wondering if a team member killed another team member while under the influence of something that might still be out there even if you think you destroyed all of it...this would seem to be the moment to name drop Flash to at least let the audience know you were covering all of your bases. 

[statsgirl]

Why is it that whenever there's a car accident or explosion, the women end up unconscious and the men don't?  What's that about, show?

What comics can do that live tv can't -- show Laurel carrying an unconscious Oliver away from a car crash.

 

The biggest problem with this episode was that there wasn't enough time for Roy's story, which is Oliver's origin story in how he learns to control his impulses and be a good mentor, and how Roy learns to trust him even more.  That's what the episode should have been about since it was established very early on that Ted Grant was innocent.

 

But there wasn't time for that because they used it to be about Laurel's origin story, how she believes Ted Grant, how she fights Oliver for his innocence. And that's the take-away for me, that the show can either do Oliver's origin story or Laurel's origin story but not both.  (And personally there is only one of those I care about.)

 

Oh, absolutely Quentin and Oliver should be calling Laurel out. She DOES make stupid decisions and yes, they are always the ones who have to clean up after her. But Laurel is still an adult who has the right to make her own decisions, even if they are stupid ones.

Oliver let her have the decision not to tell Quentin that Sara had died.  And as a result, Quentin will be even more hurt when he finds out that Laurel kept if from him, and it prevented them using police resources to catch Quentin's killer.

 

And then there was when she called in the riot squad and made the situation worse because she wanted to give the orders rather than wait till her father, the police captain, got back.

 

Laurel's right to make her own decisions stops when those decisions hurt other people.  I think she should go out and get training if she wants, but I also think that Oliver is right to refuse to train her and to refuse to let her run with the Team Arrow.

 

A lot of Oliver's characterization this episode makes more sense if you still believe that there is any sort of romantic tension between Laurel and him, which I don't. His attitude toward Ted, the crack about his "lair" being bigger (ew stop), the shot of him carrying her out of the car. All of it just made me confused, and then I was like, "ohhhhh, do these writers still think something is going to happen there?" 

It's Laurel fan pandering.  There is no necessary reason for it in a show about the creation of the Green Arrow, unlike Oliver's relationship with Felicity which at least is about him learning to have a mature romantic relationship.  I think if the show wants to do both Green Arrow and Black Canary, it's going to end up shooting itself in the foot. Or higher.

Edited November 13, 2014 by statsgirl

[apinknightmare]

Super annoying. At least, they remembered to take her to the hospital. Like I get that they were in a bad situation, but Felicity didn't even get a comment.

 

ETA: I'm I the only one who doesn't get a shipper tease vibe between Oliver and Laurel at all? That hospital scene was nothing. It just looked like he was extending an olive branch and she was as stiff as ever. 

 

I didn't get anything hinting at romance between them in that hug either, I just can't really figure out why they had her crash the car if it wasn't to have the imagery of Oliver carrying her away from it, which seems kind of shipper tease-y to me, although it could just be typical comic hero stuff. The scene in the hospital was definitely stiff, but then again I think most of their scenes together are, regardless of the subtext we're getting (or not supposed to be getting) from it.

[Starfish35]

Okay, I've been seeing this sort of statement around and I have what may be a silly question. How else is Oliver supposed to carry Laurel when he pulls her out of the car? She's a full grown adult. Even Oliver is going to need both hands to carry her. His only real options are to take her in his arms or sling her over his shoulder, and he has more control this way. I don't see how it has anything to do with how he carried Felicity, except that it was the same situation (ie get her away from burning vehicle).

I haven't seen the episode, but I guess the first thing that comes to my mind is "why did she have to be knocked unconscious?" That pretty much nessessitates the carry, which means they wanted her knocked unconscious so that Oliver could carry her. She could have climbed out herself. She could have been conscious and Oliver pulls her out and helps her run.

Whether it's a deliberate parallel to to Felicity or whether they just like that visual of the hero carrying away the damsel in distress I don't know.

[Chaser]

If she had saved herself in a Big Damn Hero move, Oliver would have less of a leg to stand on with the whole you don't understand what you are doing. I think the whole point was to take the first steps to repair their friendship but also to put a hard line in the sand: She is going to do this anyway and while he will care about her, he is not going to support her or train her. Couple that with the whole "I'm not on your team. I don't work for you" they are not setting them up to be buddies.

Anyway else find it really funny that Oliver has such lack of support for her? In S2, she was spiraling and he just yelled at her. Here she is making dumb moves again and instead of encouraging her to tell her father or talk to someone or even harness her anger (Roy S2), he just tells her No.

[Writing Wrongs]

 

Is she supposed to be cheesy?  I have no knowledge of comic lore here ..... "I'm Cupid..Stupid."   really?

All I could think of was that Connie Francis song. (yeah, I'm old)

[El Seed]

I didn't get anything hinting at romance between them in that hug either, I just can't really figure out why they had her crash the car if it wasn't to have the imagery of Oliver carrying her away from it, which seems kind of shipper tease-y to me, although it could just be typical comic hero stuff. The scene in the hospital was definitely stiff, but then again I think most of their scenes together are, regardless of the subtext we're getting (or not supposed to be getting) from it.

 

 

I don't think any of Oliver and Laurel's interactions in the episode were ship tease. They spent the entire episode at odds with each other. In the scene at the hospital Oliver tells her that he was only trying to protect her because he cares about her, and Laurel tells him she's not helpless. They hug it out, but they're still not on the same page. Oliver believes the best way to honor Sara is to keep Laurel out of the fight, while Laurel believes the best way she can honor Sara is to join the fight. They haven't moved from those stances, but the writers glossed over it because that seems to be their MO when dealing with Oliver and Laurel.

 

Oliver visits Ted and tells him that Laurel will stop coming to see him, because Oliver wouldn't be Oliver if he didn't have a control freak streak. Laurel, not getting the memo that she's supposed to do what Oliver says, stops by and basically chooses Ted as her partner. A move I'm totally cool with because Oliver as mentor and Laurel as mentee would rank up there with Worst Decisions Ever. There's still a lot of distrust between them, they don't listen to each other (and a mentee is supposed to listen to their mentor), and they're diametrically opposed on how to best honor Sara. And frankly, Oliver made it clear that the person he was backing as his mentee was Roy, not Laurel.

 

Honestly, I don't really see a parallel with Oliver carrying Laurel from the burning car and him carrying Felicity. If anything, it felt like the writers were just trying to get Laurel out of the way so they could get to Oliver and Roy bro-ing it out with the "Don't abandon me." "Never." exchange. I would have preferred if the writers hadn't damseled Laurel again, but all I got out of it was Oliver saved her because he isn't a total dick.

[patchwork]

Was this one written by a new writer? The characters weren't quite right and it doesn't line up with the previous episodes very well. The Laurel/Oliver scenes had shipping undertones and so far this season there's been a big Olicity push and while Oliver is a hypocritical douche in a lot of ways he's usually too self hating to get on his high horse about killing people. Diggle admittedly has been handing out OOC advice all season but still his speech about holding everyone to the same standard doesn't work coming from him. 

 

The basics of this episode sound good though- Wildcat's former protege is out for revenge and Roy believes he killed Sara because of dreams he's been having.

 

Two separate storylines that would have worked a lot better if they'd stayed more or less separate. Team Arrow track down the gang killer i.e. Ted Grant and that storyline gets passed to Laurel until the rescue at the end. In the meantime Roy confesses to Felicity about his dreams, Felicity tells Dig and Oliver and they wonder if it's Mirakuru related.

While Oliver is trying to help Roy with guided mediation, with limited success,  Diggle and Felicty are running tests, re-examining Sara's autopsy and it's kinda consistent with the dream. They discuss ramifications of Roy murdering Sara, Roy overhears them but says nothing then Kidnapped!Laurel calls the lair. After the rescue Oliver reassures Roy that no matter what he'll stand by him. Episode ends with Laurel stepping up her vigilante training with Ted and Roy remembering he killed the cop by stabbing him with arrows.  

 

I'm looking forward to the next episode because it looks like fun cheese, "I'm Cupid, stupid" has got to be the best introduction line second only to "I am Nyssa. Daughter of Ra's al Ghul. Heir to the demon."

[Chaser]

I looked it up. The episode was written by Erik Oleson (Corto Maltese/Guilty/Left Behind) and Keto Shimizu (Suicide Squad, Sara, Guilty, The Climb, Blast Radius, Broken Dolls).

 

I'm nervous about The Climb and Left Behind now.

[wonderwall]

Ouchhhhh they both wrote extremely poor episodes. No wonder the reviews weren't that great

[Velocity23]

I am just glad that Ben Sokolowski co-wrote the Felicity episode.

[Gwen-Stacys]

IMO Laurel using some self defense =/= being trained and capable of engaging in the hard core hand to hand to the death and jumping off buildings etc that Oliver and Sara engage in. Self Defense is designed to be able to slow down an attacker in order to flee and get help. Her saving Oliver and Tommy worked because she had the element of surprise on her side. It was a publicvenue. If those guys had wanted to really take her out they would have. And as we saw with her and the guy she went after with a baseball bat, she knows enough to be a danger to herself and others. Not enough to be a smart fighter.

It's shown again here that she is not that smart as a fighter because she claims that she should have been afraid but she wasn't. A smart fighter knows fear, remembers what fear feels like so they can decide if it's fight or flight. And sometimes flight is right answer. It's being self-aware enough to retreat and reassess the situation and live to fight another day or be so well trained that you can find new tactics during a longer battle. Even self defense teaches you to how to avoid bad situations as much as how to defend yourself short term should you be faced with that scenario . it doesn't tell you to not feel fear. It teaches you what to do about it. IMO that Laurel claims she should have been afraid but wasn't sounds more crazy than anything.

 

No one's saying that she's a trained fighter, just that she isn't starting from scratch (the basics of fighting). In the comics, Laurel is superhuman so her agility, strength, and all that business was there...she just capitalized on it with Ted Grant's training. I think people are just saying that she isn't going to go from Felicity (I hate comparing female characters, but it actually works here) to Nyssa in months, because she already started at a much higher level than Felicity in terms of combat. And yes, knowing how and where to hit someone can help you out a lot even if you haven't been in numerous fights. Punching and kicking someone isn't as straight up as most people assume, you have to know how to move your body, you have to know what body part of yours your ment to hit someone with in order to do less damage to yourself (please don't kick anyone with the top of your foot, you will break it). If you have a foundation for that (Ollie and Sarah didn't) you actually have a greater learning curve (although this is just from my personal experience. YMMV).

 

I didn't watch the episode so maybe this was addressed in the show but I think Quentin and Oliver have every right to tell her what to do since those two end up having to clean up her messes and save her when she acts without thinking.  Just in the last couple of episodes she threw Quentin's name around to gain access to a witness, she called in the riot squad and made a police situation worse to the point that Quentin had to ask her if she was using again and Oliver and Roy had to stop what they were doing to go and fix the situation, she would have shot a man not guilty of the crime she was going to shoot him for even after he provided an alibi and her actions lead to Thea being kidnapped.

 

If the show wants to have Laurel move to another city and try to fight crime there where her actions can't effect Oliver or Quentin then I agree with you, her life her choice. But in Starling City imo Quentin and Oliver should at the very least be calling her out on her dumb decisions along with getting her intense therapy and meds to deal with her anger.

 

I think they have a right to read her about her actions (read=tell her off, tell her about herself) and to be loud and vocal about their dissaproval, but she's a grown ass woman. The don't have a right to tell her not to do anything. Even if she was drinking again, they could tell her not to drink or take away her alcohol, but they can't stop her from going out and buying another bottle.

 

And to wit, Oliver has made an ass load of dumbass decisions that other people have paid for (some even paid with their lives). Why is it okay if he does it but it's not okay if she does it (excluding a dislike certain viewers may have of her?). That's why everyone (even recappers of this episode) have been fairly unanimous in calling Oliver out for his hypocracy. Because he is being a hypocrit in everyway. She asked him for his help, and he had every oppurtunity to take her under his wing and teach her not to make the same mistakes that he did, but he didn't want to. I like that she didn't just back down from it, she went out and found herself another 9canonical) mentor to teach her. Good for. Ted Grant will be good for her; teaching her to channel her anger/obsession and not letting it control her.

 

Okay, I've been seeing this sort of statement around and I have what may be a silly question. How else is Oliver supposed to carry Laurel when he pulls her out of the car? She's a full grown adult. Even Oliver is going to need both hands to carry her. His only real options are to take her in his arms or sling her over his shoulder, and he has more control this way. I don't see how it has anything to do with how he carried Felicity, except that it was the same situation (ie get her away from burning vehicle).

Over his shoulder like a sack of potatoes, apparently. I didn't see it as pandering, more like tv shows like to have scenes where the action/super hero walks away from the reckage carrying a passed out female like she's a prop. (#things that rarely ever happened in Nikita!)

Edited November 13, 2014 by Gwen-Stacys

[jaytee1812]

I loved this episode. I'm thinking the first thing Laurel should do when she does suit up is shoot Oliver in the ass. The way he tries to control her is horrifying and borders on abusive, complete with apology and blaming her for it. I thought it showed Laurel on the right path that she called Felicity and getting the guy out of the car.

Liked the Cupid reveal at the end.

I usually love Felicity but man she was awful to Roy.

I have no idea what happened in the flashbacks. They never hold my attention.

[Starfish35]

In the comics, Laurel is superhuman so her agility, strength, and all that business was there..

I was surprised by this so I just went and checked the DC wikia. If I'm reading this correctly, (spoilered for comics info)

the only superhuman ability Dinah Laurel Lance had was the Canary Cry. She had no superhuman strength or agility.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Starfish35

[yellowfred]

So, I'm getting kind of tired of the whole "murdering Sara would be unforgivable, but murdering any number of other people is something we can work with (unless you're someone who is training Laurel and has had dinner with her)."  Roy is now the third person in a row who has been suspected of killing Sara and then more or less forgiven when it turns out he actually just killed someone else (though, I guess it's nice that, in this instance, it was just one other person, rather than three or 500+).  Not to mention, they already knew that he killed that cop, and there was nothing to suggest, had he actually killed Sara, that he would be anymore personally culpable for one murder than the other.  Even Laurel realized that, so why would Diggle think that Oliver should abandon him for it?  Also, I get that they were going for the parallel with Ted and his former side-kick, but why would abandoning him (as opposed to turning him over to the authorities) be the solution, either way?  Okay, I know the answer is "bad writing," but it still bothers me. 

 

On a side note, it annoys me to no end how quickly Oliver goes into "jealous ex" mode where Laurel is concerned.  This was actually the first episode in a while where I could see the two of them conceivably getting back together, but it just confirmed that it would be completely toxic for both of them.  I feel like they would be one of those annoying couples who clearly hate each other but won't break up because they're too stubborn/lazy. 

[NumberCruncher]

Interesting.  I had the exact opposite reaction to Oliver and Laurel--I didn't pick up on any 'shippy-ness at all in their scenes together.  Oliver didn't come off as a jealous ex as much as a not wanting to constantly clean up after Laurel's messes or bail her out of danger every five minutes.  Oliver came off as a controlling asshole in the process but I do get where he was coming from considering the stupid things Laurel has done this season in her fits of rage.

[Delphi]

I was surprised by this so I just went and checked the DC wikia. If I'm reading this correctly, (spoilered for comics info)

the only superhuman ability Dinah Laurel Lance had was the Canary Cry. She had no superhuman strength or agility.

That's correct, in the comics any skills in combat were taught to her by her mother's friend, Ted Grant. While she learned her detective/interrogation skills from her father. She has a natural aptitude for both but nothing metahuman.

[catrox14]

Okay, I've been seeing this sort of statement around and I have what may be a silly question. How else is Oliver supposed to carry Laurel when he pulls her out of the car? She's a full grown adult. Even Oliver is going to need both hands to carry her. His only real options are to take her in his arms or sling her over his shoulder, and he has more control this way. I don't see how it has anything to do with how he carried Felicity, except that it was the same situation (ie get her away from burning vehicle).

 

Fireman's carry. He could have done that with Felicity but it clearly wouldn't have been the romantic framing they wanted to set up the ILY in Unthinkable.  So for me it's hard not to compare the framing as being identical.

[TanyaKay]

Number of times Laurel fails as a vigilante (new category), just three, but all are biggies: 1, telling Ted Grant that she and the Arrow used to date. Unless Laurel can later explain that she started dating the Arrow after Tommy died, she hasn't really dated that many people, so way to go on remembering the secret identity thing, Laurel; 2, getting kidnapped yet again, 3, after telling Oliver that she is not part of his Team, calling his Team to rescue her.

 

 

You included the "Laurel failing as a vigilante" category! Yeaaay.

 

This made me so happy, I now want to go home early and skip the rush hour traffic!

[rue721]

ETA: I'm I the only one who doesn't get a shipper tease vibe between Oliver and Laurel at all? That hospital scene was nothing. It just looked like he was extending an olive branch and she was as stiff as ever.

 

I think there was a lot of Oliver/Laurel ship stuff in the script, but I don't think it came off that way on camera. I actually laughed at one point when they were in the lair (I think it was after Roy had told them he'd killed Sara and then ran off (!)) and Laurel walked a few feet away to stand with her back to everyone, and then Oliver went over to her -- I was sure he was going to at least hug her, that it was the beginning of a romantic moment, and started steeling myself -- and Oliver just stayed in his personal space bubble and started talking to her in this really dry, brotherly way. I actually found the "we used to date" scene funny in the same way, because it seemed like the scene was supposed to come off as though ~of course~ they used to date, that they're bickering like a couple, etc etc etc, but instead, it felt like she sucked the air out of the room by just offhandedly revealing Oliver's identity like that, and made Oliver and Ted massively uncomfortable. I don't know if the noromo vibe (though of course YMMV) going on with Oliver/Laurel despite the script putting them in pretty couple-y positions was purposeful on the part of the show or what.