S02.E07: Deliverance

[HalcyonDays]

marceline, great Tom and Lorenzo article. If they are seeing the flaws, well then...I completely agree with that article. Thanks for providing!

[DearEvette]

Yeah, TLO really explained some of my issues well.   Abbie & Ichabod are just chasing monsters at this point and it feels pointless.  S1 really felt like there was some forward momentum while this season just doesn't.  

 

Last season felt like an exciting rollercoaster.  This one feels like a mery-go-round.  It is nice and pretty and stuff, but it isn't the ride I came to the park for.

[Drank-KoolAid]

 

This line has generated a lot of discussion. It never occurred to me, and I suppose it never occurred to anyone else, how Crane maintained his lifestyle. But when you think about it, in Season 1, Abbie was the one buying things for Crane--the shower poof, the skinny jeans , the groceries, the lunches. And he's living in Corbin's cabin rent-free (I think).

 

--I think he could get a job at the Sleepy Hollow Historical Society. That is, if Jenny or Hawley could rustle up a Social Security number for him.

 

And what does Jenny do for money? She doesn't seem dependent on Abbie or anyone else, but she also doesn't have a regular job, either.

That would make for great entertainment--Crane trying to get a job.

 

And I think Jenny always finds ways to make money. Although I'm sure her work is legal these days.

 

...we’re finding it harder and harder to care about the outcomes of each particular mini-adventure, task or episode because they all seem to be happening on a loop. Henry has a plan, Henry enacts a plan, the plan either fails or succeeds based on how well Abbie and Ichabod respond, Henry starts hatching another plan. It never seems to break out of that cycle and it never seems to acknowledge the world outside this small, insular group of characters.

That was certainly true of this episode. I think the overall show arc continues to be Moloch and the Apocalypse vs. the Two Witnesses. What has become problematic is that Henry has been placed at the center of this conflict. So the show's other characters--including Moloch and Headless--have all been reduced to reacting to what Henry does, what Henry wants, and what Henry plans. I don't think this was the show's original premise.

[Dobian]

I want to thank Ichabod for his advice when I voted on Tuesday.  Prop 3 about the redistricting really was a travesty, haha!  What everyone else said, Henry isn't their son, he's just their combined DNA.  They never raised him and the first time they see him again after 200 years he looks like their father.  This emotional bond they're supposed to have with him is totally manufactured.  I guess the writers are bent on this redemption plotline for him, but then they're making Abraham all human and sympathetic.  These are two of the Four Horsemen, I never heard of one of the Horsemen quitting, let alone two!  "Sorry Moloch, this is my two-week notice, you'll have to find someone else for the Apocolypse.  Can I have a reference?"  LOL!  Yes, Ichabod's romance with Katrina is all bland and soapy.  I thought the writers were starting to steer them apart when Ichabod began commenting on how many times she had deceived him.  But now they're all lovey-dovey again.  I really don't mind him not being romantic with Abbie, I've said before that I like them as buddies and a romance would spoil the dynamic.  But bringing Katrina together with Ichabod is going to infringe on that. Up until now she has been around but not really "around", so she hasn't been in the way.  Now she is.  The strength of this show is Ichababbie, so they had better not get away from that. 

Edited November 6, 2014 by Dobian

[DJG1122]

S1 had an awareness that the storylines were batshit crazy and the characters went with it, but with the slightest tip of the hat that said "yeah, nuts!  We know!) and we all went along for that ride.

 

Yep, right there with you.

Yes, yes and yes

[LydiaMoon1]

Agreed. That scene in the hospital hallway pissed me off a bit. It's like it tried to reinforce the enduring and accepted standard of  "beauty". If there are two women one white and one non white, but specifically Black, then automatically, the white woman is the most physically attractive woman.  I hate that even now we still have to argue about a woman's beauty, but society is such that women's physically attributes are more important than anything else, and tv/entertainment is a shallow medium.

 

In terms of Crane noticing Katrina's beauty, I believe it's because she's his wife. I don't think Crane would consider it "proper" to comment on Abbie's beauty, since she's not his wife. Hawley (like it or not) has certainly made it clear that he sees Abbie and likes what he sees. And Jenny has long trail of men who "can't say no to her," with whom she's had a history.

If I may take the liberty of speaking for another poster, the problem with the hospital scene wasn't that Crane noticed Katrina's beauty without making any comment about Abbie.  It was that the two men the trio passed in the hospital hallway turned their heads enthusiactically to ogle Katrina while Abbie went unnoticed.  How would anyone who looks like Abbie ever go unnoticed? 

 

Actually, while we're on the subject, how is that Crane never reacts to Abbie's obvious physical beauty? Yes, he's supposedly an honorable man and he's a married man, but he ain't blind.  I'm not an shipper, but it strains credulity to expect me to believe that he never notices.

[BestestAuntEver]

I finally watched. Add me to the list of people on the verge of dumping this show.  It's not as entertaining or holding my interest like it was. This weeks epi was brutal. I kept checking social media on my phone, getting up doing things in the room, etc. Never a good thing for me with a show. I start to think how I can do other things with my time. If it weren't so close to the end of the fall season, I would simply bank a couple of episodes on DVR  in order to see how all this pans out.

 

I'm not here for Katrina. If any on is reading this board, I have no issue with stopping to record or watch shows. My time & sanity are worth far more than to hate watch shit.

.

I'm glad the ratings are dropping & I'm ecstatic Monday's episode is being called out. The producers/writers can write what they want & take the show in the direction they chose but I and others don't have to watch. The falling ratings prove this. This is no longer must watch TV. This is not the show I feel in love with & enjoyed last year. This has become tedious. When will writers & showrunners realize that viewers don't have to accept their vision.

 

ITA, John Noble is on to much & Henry is over used. I am not her for CFD. I agree with the article. The evil is all about Henry & his hurt feelings. Henry has been the catalyst for most of the bad this season. Every damn thing is being filtered thru Henry.

 

I liked the idea of Hawley but was turned off when they made it clear he & Jenny had a physical relationship. I have never looked at, dated or slept with a guy my sisters had a past with & neither have my sisters. They didn't have to make that part of his back story, they chose to. Abby should have her own man not her sisters sloppy seconds.

 

I'm down with the #AbbieMillsDeservesBetter campaign.

Edited November 6, 2014 by BestestAuntEver

[ChelseaNH]

I still don't get why Moloch had to be borned again via Katrina.

 

Moloch being born was a way to bring him into this world, across from his purgatory dimension.  There was no requirement that he be borne of Katrina; she was just convenient.

 

that their mission as Witnesses would not take a backseat to Ichabod and Katrina's marriage drama. So what's changed?

 

There are a number of terms in that sentence which could conceivably mean different things to different people.

 

Abbie playing nursemaid to the same character the same way her her ancestor had to

 

Abbie wasn't there to mop Katrina's brow and hold her hand; she was there to deal with a problem.  And once the solution was identified, Abbie left Katrina alone to go get the solution.  If she were actually a nursemaid, she would have been stuck at Katrina's side.

[Trek]

I don't how many times I've seen this excuse "It's better it happens to "white character" while "POC" continues to be awesome. That is such b.s. and awesome doesn't even come close to describing Abbie playing nursemaid to the same character

Hmm, there is not a single use of the word "white" or the term POC in my post. While some have made diversity or lack thereof in and of itself a main issue of their like or dislike for the show, and you’re clearly passionate on the subject, it has nothing to do with my post. I just view it on a script/plot/character basis irrespective of color. I like Abbie the character and like her not being dragged into the melodrama. Period. Same as me disliking Hawley taking over Jenny’s job because I love Jenny the actor/character and find Hawley rather bland and generic – not because one may be a POC and the other is not. Cheers.

[marceline]

 

Actually, while we're on the subject, how is that Crane never reacts to Abbie's obvious physical beauty? Yes, he's supposedly an honorable man and he's a married man, but he ain't blind.  I'm not an shipper, but it strains credulity to expect me to believe that he never notices.

I think that's true to the character. It would be "improper" for him to comment on her that way. He's a married man and obviously one with a deep sense of propriety as evidenced by his treatment of Caroline. 

 

I feel like some people who are unhappy with the direction of the show (which includes me) are seeing agenda in places where there isn't any. Yes, it's obvious something has gone wrong but not every scene is an attempt to devalue Abbie. (Honestly, Ichabod leering after her would skeeve me out.) That said, I'm not sure TPTB understand that while they may have the viewers affection, they don't have our trust. When I watch a Joss Whedon show, I may disagree with some story decisions but I trust in his commitment to showing kick ass women and his openness to diversity. I have no such trust here. The show hasn't earned it and I'm still smarting from the way Orci and Kurtzman treated the character of Astrid on Fringe.

 

I don't want to have to drop this show and I probably never will. I'll keep watching just to support the actors the same way I still watch Scandal to support the actors but they need to remember what worked in S1 - not just with the diversity but with the actual storytelling - and get the hell back to it with the quickness. Because as much as I'm not here for Katrina, I'm also not here for Henry and Moloch's Weekly Apocalypse Fuckup. If this is war, then let's get to it. Give me some stakes. Some urgency. Give me a reason to be afraid of something. Stop giving me episode on top of episode where we go an hour and nothing changes.

 

ETA: I took the looks Katrina got in the hospital not as a sign that she was beautiful but as a sign that she looked like a drug-addled hooker being dragged out of there by her pimp. A pimp who apparently has a fetish for Colonial wear.

Edited November 6, 2014 by marceline

[DeLurker]

 

I think that's true to the character. It would be "improper" for him to comment on her that way. He's a married man and obviously one with a deep sense of propriety as evidenced by his treatment of Caroline.

 

I feel like some people who are unhappy with the direction of the show (which includes me) are seeing agenda in places where there isn't any. Yes, it's obvious something has gone wrong but not every scene is an attempt to devalue Abbie. (Honestly, Ichabod leering after her would skeeve me out.)

I agree with commenting would be improper, but one can notice someone else's appearance without it being leering such as an appreciative glance.

[Dobian]

I think the whole race argument being raised about this episode is really forced. Abbie is still the same strong independent character in this one that she's always been. She infiltrated an enemy hideout all by herself for crying out loud! What did Katrina do this episode? She was the damsel in distress and was contrived to wear tight-fitting goth teen clothes so people could ogle her. Is that what you want for Abbie? Is that a characterization that makes Katrina favorable or superior because she is white? Looks to me like her character is the one being demeaned and objectified. I'd take Abbie and the way she is being written in a second over Katrina. Do you want Ichabod to flirt with Abbie and tell her she's hot when he's supposed to be monogomous and in love with his wife? Basically go against his character to avoid people getting the idea that a white man shouldn't notice a black woman? I just think this is getting overblown. The writers can keep writing Katrina that way and putting her into sexy clothes, and it doesn't matter to me a bit so long as Abbie is out there kicking ass on headless horsemen and other demons.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Dobian

[Neurochick]

I think the whole race argument being raised about this episode is really forced.

 

 

I don't think so.  Once again this was an episode where the black female character was playing second fiddle to the white female character; where the other black female character on the show is MIA as is the black male character; I barely saw Irving in this episode.  To me, it's not forced.

[Watermelon]

If I may take the liberty of speaking for another poster, the problem with the hospital scene wasn't that Crane noticed Katrina's beauty without making any comment about Abbie.  It was that the two men the trio passed in the hospital hallway turned their heads enthusiactically to ogle Katrina while Abbie went unnoticed.  How would anyone who looks like Abbie ever go unnoticed? 

ver notices.

I don't mind it. Even assuming they're equally beautiful( and Mileage Varies) Hot girl in a corset > hot girl in a leather jacket.  

[formerlyfreedom]

The conversation in here is starting to take a turn, and it’s not a good one. Intelligent, thoughtful debate is welcomed and wanted. The discussion of race does come into play for this episode, however, to throw a blanket statement that everything this show writes for Abbie and equating it to racism is disingenuous.

 

Everyone is free to have their own interpretation of what is happening on Sleepy Hollow. We expect everyone to respect each person’s opinion in here as well.

 

Trying to prove your point by repeated posts, arguments, and inflammatory language is not acceptable, and violates The Social Contract of the site. We will delete and edit going forward.

 

Thanks for posting at PTV!

[theatremouse]

This episode would've been infinitely more interesting if Katrina actually died. (While I happen to be on the bandwagon of: eegads is she boring even though on paper she probably shouldn't be, that's not why.) 

 

I think it was painfully obvious from the way this was written that the second they established any sort of faux peril for her, it was also pretty clear there'd be a swoop-in, figure-out, magical resolution at the last second and absolutely no consequences. And it annoyed the crap out of me. Ich and Abbie, I know are not going to die. They're the main characters. But if they actually went there, and killed Katrina, especially in a just a weee bit too late with the Benjamin Franklin magic toy of twinkly lights, I would've really dug it. Or heck, if they had it and it just plain flat out didn't work. They thought they'd figured everything out, but nope. For once Ichabod's recitations were not the perfect magical solution of his apparently perfect memory of everything that was ever said in front of him in his entire life. I mean, I'm not in the school of thought of "going there" just to be shocking, but at this point, from this show, I'll take anything. I'm bored. Surprise me show! I dare you!

[marceline]

Re: Abbie playing "nursemaid" to Katrina...

 

I believe (read:hope and pray) that Abbie helping Katrina not birth Moloch was a deliberate callback to Abbie's ancestor Grace helping Katrina birth Jeremy/Henry. That would actually restore my faith that the writers had a larger plan for things.

 

Diversity issues notwithstanding, I think that SH is first and foremost a sci-fi/fantasy show and in my experience with the genre, when you get a scene that so clearly harkens back to a previous scene, it's done on purpose or at least, it should be. I would love it if we learned that the Mills women have a long mystical history that has culminated in Abbie being a witness. Perhaps a story where Abbie comes from a long line of people - both male and female - who have been thwarting evil and saving the world from the Apocolypse since Biblical times.

 

*pause*

 

I think I've just come up with my first Sleepy Hollow fanfic!

Edited November 7, 2014 by marceline

[rue721]

I think it was painfully obvious from the way this was written that the second they established any sort of faux peril for her, it was also pretty clear there'd be a swoop-in, figure-out, magical resolution at the last second and absolutely no consequences.

 

I agree, extremely stale.

 

Also, when you can replace a character with a jar and have it make no difference, or if people are more intrigued by what's going on with *the jar,* then maybe it's time to rethink some of your characterization/plotting choices.

[allyw]

Moloch being born was a way to bring him into this world, across from his purgatory dimension.  There was no requirement that he be borne of Katrina; she was just convenient.

 

 

 

 

There are a number of terms in that sentence which could conceivably mean different things to different people.

 

 

 

 

Abbie wasn't there to mop Katrina's brow and hold her hand; she was there to deal with a problem.  And once the solution was identified, Abbie left Katrina alone to go get the solution.  If she were actually a nursemaid, she would have been stuck at Katrina's side.

Just because Abbie didn't literally wiped Katrina's brow doesn't mean she wasn't a nursemaid to her.

 

Hmm, there is not a single use of the word "white" or the term POC in my post. While some have made diversity or lack thereof in and of itself a main issue of their like or dislike for the show, and you’re clearly passionate on the subject, it has nothing to do with my post. I just view it on a script/plot/character basis irrespective of color. I like Abbie the character and like her not being dragged into the melodrama. Period. Same as me disliking Hawley taking over Jenny’s job because I love Jenny the actor/character and find Hawley rather bland and generic – not because one may be a POC and the other is not. Cheers.

I quoted your post because of the "let Katrina be melodramatic and Abbie be awesome". I've seen this excuse a lot when it comes to white and POC discussion and usually the "melodramatic" character is white and the "awesome" one is a POC. And the "awesome" may get to roll their eyes or side eye the things that the "melodramatic" does but that's about it. The latter's life is still shown on screen while the former is all business and doesn't have a well-rounded life.

[blaksheba]

In terms of Crane noticing Katrina's beauty, I believe it's because she's his wife. I don't think Crane would consider it "proper" to comment on Abbie's beauty, since she's not his wife.

Perhaps I should have been much clearer; of course Crane would most probably be titillated seeing his wife in clothing in which  he may have never seen her. Clothing has changed much since their time, as stated in the script.

 

My annoyance  in this episode is that it felt that a point had to made. The corset and skinny jeans elicited stares of at least four men. Having random extras in the hallway gawking at Katrina, when she, Crane and Abbie were in the halls of the hospital were a bit like being hit on the head with a hammer.  Obviously a point needed to be driven home to the audience... now I guess we all know, Katrina is hawt!!!

[HalcyonDays]

I'm stereotyping here (apologies) but when they mentioned "Goth" outfit, I was like, where? Doesn't Goth culture tend to wear lots of black (thinking of my college clubbing years) That corset should have been black - same with the jeans.

 

ETA: I took the looks Katrina got in the hospital not as a sign that she was beautiful but as a sign that she looked like a drug-addled hooker being dragged out of there by her pimp. A pimp who apparently has a fetish for Colonial wear.

 

This made me laugh. It fits, what with the open shirts that Crane wears. Put some gold chains around his neck and we get Pimp Daddy Crane. Oh lord...

[cynic]

I'm stereotyping here (apologies) but when they mentioned "Goth" outfit, I was like, where? Doesn't Goth culture tend to wear lots of black (thinking of my college clubbing years) That corset should have been black - same with the jeans.

I thought the exact same thing. I didn't think it looked goth at all. I actually really disliked her new outfit, because it was just eye-rollingly coincidental that she would end up in a corset so reminiscent of her historical togs. And that both the corset and the jeans fit like a second skin too! Imagine that. It just seemed like it was trying to hard. If she had ended up in a 90's era XXXL striped polo and swim trunks, at least that would've been funny. On a side note, when Ichabod said he liked the clothes, Katrina got the derpiest look on her face. It made me laugh.

Thanks for the pilot script link a few pages back, HalcyonDays! :)

Edited November 7, 2014 by cynic

[JodhaBai]

I don't think so.  Once again this was an episode where the black female character was playing second fiddle to the white female character; where the other black female character on the show is MIA as is the black male character; I barely saw Irving in this episode.  To me, it's not forced.

 

It's an ensemble cast.  The actress who plays Katrina is in the main cast.  Each ep different characters get more of the focus.     

I really don't see Abby being sidelined at all.   Personally, I think some of this talk is way ott. 

[cheyz]

I like this show, I liked this episode.

 

Katrina needs to be featured more; she is a main character, Katia was in the credits last season, but hardly had any screen time. Now that she is out of purgatory, they are making up for it. Storywise, I think Henry jumped the gun a little trying to bring Moloch into the world to make up for being yelled at. Doesn't Moloch need all four horsemen together first?

 

Right now we have two horsemen that are tied to Ichabod. To me, that means the other two will be tied to Abbie.

 

Irving and Jenny are already on board, they don't need to be recruited. Reyes and Hawley are new, so they are getting more exposure. Once we get to the other two horsemen, they too will get a lot of focus, backstory, and screen time as they are woven into the show.

 

I don't expect TPTB to give every actor the same amount of story. They are telling a story, and use the characters as needed. I'm watching for the story, and I'm willing to see where it goes.

 

Ichabod needs Katrina the same way Abbie needs Jenny: a strong family tie. Both witnesses need to recruit more allies, and Abbie obviously has more opportunities because she knows more people from this time period. Ichabod is starting from scratch with each person he meets, in a way Abbie is not.

 

As I said before, TPTB are setting up a story, and right now they are working on the Scooby gang. Last season we got the main characters and some of the supporters. This season, they are setting up more. Sure they could have more throw-away lines, but who is to say they didn't and they got cut for time?

 

This episode did move the story along. Katrina is integrated more, and the emotional ties to two horsemen give our heroes another advantage in how to overcome The Horsemen. Next episode

will have Hawley as the damsel getting more knowledge of and commitment to the cause.

 

IMHO

 

 

[ChelseaNH]

Just because Abbie didn't literally wiped Katrina's brow doesn't mean she wasn't a nursemaid to her.

 

Then what did Abbie do that involved nursing Katrina?  I didn't see any service or subservience in Abbie's behavior.

[Indi]

If there is anything this catastrophe of an episode proved to me is that Katrina is not and will never be a good match for Team Witness. I'm sorry, but Winter is as talented and generates as much chemistry as a wall. The character drags down everything and everyone around her (see the deep stupidity and uselessness in both love interests) and she adds nothing to the show. I hope they get rid of her in the next opportunity they have, otherwise they should stop teasing it, something they've been doing since 2.01. Kill her off. Send her to the past. Whatever it takes to remove her from Abbie's scenes. She can take her moronic husband with her.

[DeLurker]

. Yes it seems that everyone is getting very, very upset about this particular episode...And I agree that it was an awful episode, poorly written and acted...

I think it is a collective response to the season. Prior ep threads have talked about concerns and frustration, but by 7 eps in you would expect to see momentum in the story arc. Combine lack of momentum, inexplicably not addressing fan favorite characters absence and a stinker of an ep and you got a lightning rod.

[HalcyonDays]

I think it is a collective response to the season. Prior ep threads have talked about concerns and frustration, but by 7 eps in you would expect to see momentum in the story arc. Combine lack of momentum, inexplicably not addressing fan favorite characters absence and a stinker of an ep and you got a lightning rod.

Does anyone feel that this season is dragging on. How strange to say it. I mean, last season whipped by, things got resolved episode to episode. This season they only have five extra episodes, yet everything is dragging out big time. Nothing is resolved, it's just the same old same old. Those five extras shouldn't have slowed down the momentum this much.

 

Ichabod needs Katrina the same way Abbie needs Jenny: a strong family tie.

 

You are not wrong - he needs a family tie. But instead of writing a compelling romance, and making the wife useful, she is written so poorly I have to wonder if its deliberate. Couple that with the moment that Ichabod says his wife's name or sees/interacts with her, and he loses all brain cells. You know the joke about blood flow in a male....

 

Really interesting theory I read on another site. First of all, the poster noted what we all noticed - that Ichabod called Katrina an "enchantress", which we all know can mean "someone who puts someone else under a spell." The poster then noted that Ichabod is a really "Intelligent yet stubborn" person. We've seen time and time again his railing about his own beliefs, how things should be in his viewpoint, etc. From donut taxes to driving to his founding fathers - he has a strong opinion on everything. He learns, but it takes time and he does debate things. He is a logical learned man.

 

Then the poster notes this: That whenever Katrina has a notion, a idiot plan, whatever, he never questions her. He becomes a "brainless twit," as we know. The moment he sees Katrina, or the moment he says the words "Katrina says." concerning one of her plans - boom - he immediately sides with her. To the point that we get whiplash because the change is so sudden. The poster rewatched earlier episodes and noted a pattern - hinting at.....the fact that Ichabod IS under a spell. Everytime he says "Katrina this", he immediately acquieses to her whim - to the point of being completely illogical.

 

I really liked this theory. It's got to be the only explanation - please be the explanation - because Ichabod cannot be this stupid.

 

ETA: no problem, cynic re: the Pilot script - I found it interesting how much changed - some for the better (tighter dialogue), some of it for the worse. (including the wife).

[Dobian]

If there is anything this catastrophe of an episode proved to me is that Katrina is not and will never be a good match for Team Witness. I'm sorry, but Winter is as talented and generates as much chemistry as a wall. The character drags down everything and everyone around her (see the deep stupidity and uselessness in both love interests) and she adds nothing to the show. I hope they get rid of her in the next opportunity they have, otherwise they should stop teasing it, something they've been doing since 2.01. Kill her off. Send her to the past. Whatever it takes to remove her from Abbie's scenes. She can take her moronic husband with her.

I agree up until the last line.  Her moronic husband is the key to the show, lol.

[Tippi Blevins]

I'm starting to be more interested in Team Evil than Team Witnesses. Like, Henry and Abe already didn't like each other, but the tension has to be crazy high now. The "good guys" should concentrate more on redeeming Abe than on Henry. Wouldn't he be easier to turn against Moloch? "Your demon leader gave a cool suit of robo-armor to Henry, and what did you get? A shaved head and then no head."

[Happytobehere]

This was the first episode I simply DVRed rather than watch and DVR. It was beyond awful and I know that I will be switching my viewing to pure DVR. Everything about Abby's interactions with Katrina were insulting to the character. Her ancestors were killed because of Katrina and her spawn and Abby is relegated to the role of handmaiden. What, Katrina's uber magic couldn't get her though the day? What "Mr. Ichabod, I Know and am an Expert on Everything Crane" couldn't take care of his wife sans Abbie's help. When it has reached the point that a crap character like Hawley is preferable to Crane, the show has become so lost, I doubt it could find its way back, if they wanted to.

I will ff through the Crane Crap, as I am sick of his free-loading behind, his witch wife with the magical powers of a gnat, and that thing their love spawned. I will be transitioning myself from this show because it is no longer the show I started watching, as was noted upthread, it has becoming whiter and whiter and the PoC are being written as props for their white counterparts. Fox, the showrunners and the Crane family lovers can be thrilled if they want, but they will not get my support in their marginalization of non-white characters. And as someone who never actively shipped or cared about an Ichabod and Abbie pairing and has been actively opposed to it since last season's finale, my ire has nothing to do with the ship-wars some are engaged in. I for one think Ichabod, Katrina and Henry deserve each other, while Abbie deserves better. As I said, at this point, Hawley, who has been written as an aweful, self-serving ass is coming across as better.

Sleepy Hollow could have been a truly great, trendsetter in terms of shows for the modern viewing audience, instead, it has devolved into what we see before us. The fact that this episode brought the show to yet another all-time viewership low speaks volumes for what is being written.

Edited November 9, 2014 by Happytobehere

[allyw]

Then what did Abbie do that involved nursing Katrina? I didn't see any service or subservience in Abbie's behavior.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree because Abbie being there playing the same role as her ancestor is a disservice to her character.

[HalcyonDays]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree because Abbie being there playing the same role as her ancestor is a disservice to her character.

 

I completely understand what you are saying, however I am going to reply to this was a logical and historical view.

 

Grace (she was house matron at Fredericks Manor) tended to Katrina as she gave birth. Not to get into the "mammie" right now (we will NOT go there), but I could see that woman in general (regardless of race) would tend to help out other woman in the households giving birth at the time. Midwives were most common. Doctor's didn't make "house calls" in the 18th century - unless you were rich, most likely. I don't remember seeing Fredericks wife or daughters or another woman in that episode (Sanctuary), Grace is the only woman around, so I guess it would be natural that Grace would end up midwifing - especially since Kat is supposed to be a witch, so they have to hide things anyway. Historically, this was not unusual at all. But I get the complaint against it.

 

Because Abbie is holding Katrina's hand and supporting her, it could be seen that way - the parallel. I know the comment is that why wasn't Ichabod beside her instead. I can only defend that in this way  - it had to do with height. Crane jumps up on the ledge, pulls down the wooden slats covering the window, then holds up that prism thing to a specific part of the glass. If you look, he's stretching his arm up high to reach that spot on the window. Since he's at least a foot taller than Abbie, plus his long arm reach, I can only logically say that Ichabod had to do it because of his reach/height.

 

That's about as much as I can defend in this episode...

[BlueJay81]

This season is boring so far and not just for the reasons already outlined. There's no tension or focus with the team of Witnesses plus they just seem to pull stuff out of thin air to solve their problems. The whole Benjamin Franklin stuff this season.

Moloch is a weak villain, his choice of horsemen is poor, they keep messing up and are bogged down by emotional baggage.  It makes them boring and non threatenting, though I have a soft spot for Abraham, certainly prefer him to Hawley.

 

It just seems directionless so far, what are they really working towards and why should we even care?

[allyw]

I completely understand what you are saying, however I am going to reply to this was a logical and historical view.

Grace (she was house matron at Fredericks Manor) tended to Katrina as she gave birth. Not to get into the "mammie" right now (we will NOT go there), but I could see that woman in general (regardless of race) would tend to help out other woman in the households giving birth at the time. Midwives were most common. Doctor's didn't make "house calls" in the 18th century - unless you were rich, most likely. I don't remember seeing Fredericks wife or daughters or another woman in that episode (Sanctuary), Grace is the only woman around, so I guess it would be natural that Grace would end up midwifing - especially since Kat is supposed to be a witch, so they have to hide things anyway. Historically, this was not unusual at all. But I get the complaint against it.

Because Abbie is holding Katrina's hand and supporting her, it could be seen that way - the parallel. I know the comment is that why wasn't Ichabod beside her instead. I can only defend that in this way - it had to do with height. Crane jumps up on the ledge, pulls down the wooden slats covering the window, then holds up that prism thing to a specific part of the glass. If you look, he's stretching his arm up high to reach that spot on the window. Since he's at least a foot taller than Abbie, plus his long arm reach, I can only logically say that Ichabod had to do it because of his reach/height.

That's about as much as I can defend in this episode...

I get what you're saying and maybe I would've been okay with it if all the other crap wasn't going on. But they are going on and seeing the show becoming increasingly whiter and more Crane centric just doesn't sit right with me.

[MrsRafaelBarba]

I dropped The Vampire Diaries, Scandal and POI due to how the WOC were marginalized.

 

In the latter's case, killed off after two new Caucasian female characters were cast.

 

What's going on with Sleepy Hollow this season, gives me a same shit, different show vibe.

 

Hope the overwhelming negative  reaction to last week's eppy, is a wake up call for tptb.

[Julia]

In the latter's case, killed off after two new Caucasian female characters were cast.

Shaw is a WOC as well, but leaving that aside, they've lost about 6 million viewers since Carter was killed so you're probably not alone.

I don't want Abby to become a sidekick - I love Abby, and besides, it would make Alessandra Stanley happy. I think, though, if it's emotionally necessary for her to be in a relationship, she's far too sensible to have one with someone whose development is as arrested as Ichabod's. I think Katrina counts on his having blind spots she can act in. I don't think Abby'd put up with it.

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Team Ichabbie but Crane is neither ready or worthy of her at this time. 

 

With that said, she too interesting and compelling to  be on "Witness Duty" 24/7.

 

OTH's Peyton's stalker, not a guy I want her hookin up with.

 

Nice to look at, but shady and Jenny's leftovers nonetheless.  

[DeLurker]

Whenever I see the title to this ep I can't help but hear banjos.

[jhlipton]

Several weeks (almost a month) late but I still have a comment or two.

And hey, she got to vote and impart important life lessons while doing it!

 

But she didn't get to vote when it mattered story-wise.  I would have loved it if she had said "Yeah, I can count, but I own more property than both of you combined, so by your own rules, you're out-voted."  

 

they took this amazing-in-concept character and wrapped her up in a Damsel In Distress burqua.

 

A burqua with tight legs!  LOL