S04.E06: From A To B And Back Again

[EtheltoTillie]

Why didn't Fara go in the tunnel? So as not to be followed.

[scrb]

Carrie's shouted at Quinn, Fara and Lockhart.

 

Which of her co-workers still like her?  After moping back home mooning over her, Quinn doesn't even look like he'd hate-fuck her now.

 

Are the writers and producers trying to show some downward spiral, first almost killing her own kid, then using questionable tactics and repeatedly screwing up on the job?

 

That's been going on for awhile and she keeps getting more chances to make mistakes.  Not only more chances, she's getting more authority.

 

At this point, if Haqqani perpetrates a terrorist attack, it's on her.

[armadillo1224]

 

This was an interesting episode because I felt it was meant to show the difference between "them" and "us."  The terrorists will do whatever it takes for their cause; even an uncle killing his own nephew.  Most reasonable people would say, "Fuck you, I'm not going to kill my own flesh and blood."  But the terrorists knew that Carrie and Co. wouldn't strike if Saul was there.

 

I mean, Carrie almost killed her baby like two weeks ago and was 100% on-board with taking out Saul to get to Haqqani, so I'm not sure that, if that was indeed the point, it was delivered very effectively.

 

I think those kinds of ironclad "us vs. them" distinctions tend to be pretty shallow. Homeland has changed a lot (and not for the better) since it started but I've always felt that that was one of its most important original themes, something very distinctive for a terrorism thriller--that people on "our" side do a lot of horrible things too and that in any conflict like this one, there's lots of shades of gray.

Edited November 4, 2014 by armadillo1224

[Joimiaroxeu]

Even at their worst I never felt like I wanted to see Tony Soprano or Walter White murdered. But Carrie? Carrie needs killin'.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Joimiaroxeu

[LotusFlower]

Are the writers and producers trying to show some downward spiral, first almost killing her own kid, then using questionable tactics and repeatedly screwing up on the job?

Yes, I think so. I think it's a kind of post-traumatic stress from Brody's death, and maybe the baby, too. In the first or second episode, after the attack and killing of Sandy, Carrie was all business-like, and Quinn asked "what is the matter with you?" I think it's one of the themes of the season.

[betsyboo]

This made me BUST out laughing until tears rolled down my face. It struck me as so funny!!

 

 

Outside, Dennis is lurking with all the subtlety of a bear on a tiny unicycle.

[shelley1234]

 

Which of her co-workers still like her?  After moping back home mooning over her, Quinn doesn't even look like he'd hate-fuck her now.

 

You think?  I don't.  Quinn is still caring WAY TOO MUCH about Carrie fucking Aayan because he is a love sick puppy dog.  Gross.  Just go kick some ass Quinn and forget about the bat shit crazy that is Carrie, mkay?  

[Maximona]

Oh, I don't think Quinn is a lovesick puppy.

 

I think Quinn's deeper emotions are aroused when he can position himself as some kind of White Knight.  See the Case of the Ass-Stompin' in the Diner in defense of the apartment manager's honor.

 

I think Quinn viewed Carrie for a while as a victim, which, of course, triggered all his residual White Knight romantic impulses.

 

We're watching the scales fall from his eyes.  I don't think he likes her at all now.  

 

 

[terrymct]

I have to say that I'm enjoying the amount of shade that Redmond is throwing Carrie's way during these episodes.  Lately, he's moved from being the disgruntled guy who should have had Carrie's job to the character who captures my feelings about Carrie the best.

[Boundary]

Quinn would do well to forget Carrie but he's too emotionally tangled now. He can't just switch it off. What's worse is that Carrie  is oblivious, so it puts Quinn in a bind: can't get out and effort to stay in is wasted. 

[shelley1234]

I have to say that I'm enjoying the amount of shade that Redmond is throwing Carrie's way during these episodes.  Lately, he's moved from being the disgruntled guy who should have had Carrie's job to the character who captures my feelings about Carrie the best.

 

Yep.  This.  Also, given that Carrie is supposed to be in charge....I also slightly enjoyed the drone people disregarding Carrie saying "take the shot" a few times over.  I will have to rewatch, but the final order to stand down came from either Redmond or Quinn...and there was no looking at Carrie for confirmation from anyone.  There was no attempt at all to follow the chain of command in that room.  

[betsyboo]

I have to say that I'm enjoying the amount of shade that Redmond is throwing Carrie's way during these episodes.  Lately, he's moved from being the disgruntled guy who should have had Carrie's job to the character who captures my feelings about Carrie the best.

This. After the "I love you" and she came back up to the front of the room, he was all side-eye-ing her and it made me laugh. He might as well have had a thought bubble above his head saying "AWKWARD"

[VioletMarx]

 

I think Quinn viewed Carrie for a while as a victim, which, of course, triggered all his residual White Knight romantic impulses.

 

We're watching the scales fall from his eyes.  I don't think he likes her at all now.

Totally agree. This all kicked in last season when he saw Carrie as a victim of Saul's evil machinations - hanging her out to dry in the televised hearings and locking her up in a loony bin against her will.

 

I think (hope, actually, as I really don't trust these writers to use logic) that the apartment manager was sort of meant to show what an innocent person (in the context of their CIA world) really looks like - and Carrie does NOT look like that. Even if Carrie wasn't in on Saul's plan last season, she was never really innocent - she was a professional agent, she made certain choices regarding Brody, etc. Aayan was truly an innocent victim, a kid. Carrie was screwing him in every sense, and NewEnlightenedQuinn is not down with that. I'm hoping his blinders are completely gone now. 

Edited November 4, 2014 by VioletMarx

[Latverian Diplomat]

He really is stupid. His uncle is a targeted terrorist, he knows he's in danger, and yet he continues to trust and talk to people. Speaking of stupid....

...the terrorists were smart to drive three identical vans to the "meet" and then drive off in three different directions, but in a room full of intelligence officers, not a single one kept an eye on which van held Saul?

It wasn't perfectly clear, but it looked to me like the cars diverged after emerging from an area of cover, presumably they paused there just long enough for a bit of a shuffle.

 

Yep.  This.  Also, given that Carrie is supposed to be in charge....I also slightly enjoyed the drone people disregarding Carrie saying "take the shot" a few times over.  I will have to rewatch, but the final order to stand down came from either Redmond or Quinn...and there was no looking at Carrie for confirmation from anyone.  There was no attempt at all to follow the chain of command in that room.  

Yeah, there's no way Quinn has the authority to overrule Carrie like that...there was an unacceptable level of insubordination from Quinn and Fara all epsiode. It's one thing to express reservations, it's another to refuse to do your job or deliberately half-ass it. It would be one thing if Carrie's orders or plan were crazy, but in fact, her plan worked perfectly. and unfolded in a way that had to be a real possibility once they knew Haqqani was still alive.  

[Pallas]

There was an unacceptable level of insubordination from Quinn and Fara all epsiode. It's one thing to express reservations, it's another to refuse to do your job or deliberately half-ass it. It would be one thing if Carrie's orders or plan were crazy, but in fact, her plan worked perfectly. and unfolded in a way that had to be a real possibility once they knew Haqqani was still alive.

 

Very true.  That Fara half-assed her way through the clean-up was left to be inferred, but it makes sense -- we were spared a glimpse inside the garbage can right next to the bed, but Fara wasn't -- and reminds us that these are simply people doing their jobs, in the way that people do their jobs. This is work, not Camelot.  Carrie's the Drone Queen, not King Arthur.   

 

Carrie's plan worked in every respect: she manipulated her asset at the same time she shored him up in his own mind, so that he was able to function exactly as she might want, without her.  Her goal was to use one individual to help her kill another, and she succeeded.  If Aayan was going to die this time -- as he already nearly did at her command the month before, along with his mother and sister and dozens of others -- at least this time he wouldn't have died as part of a mistake. This time, she had the right target.  

 

If Haggani hadn't had Saul with him, though, he would likely never have responded to Aayan. That was always the risk. Just as Carrie got lucky with the chain of coincidences that led them to Aayan and from Aayan to Haggani, she also got lucky there.  Too bad for her plan but lucky for Saul, and maybe her soul, that Quinn finally learned how to say "No!" to her.    

[LotusFlower]

It wasn't perfectly clear, but it looked to me like the cars diverged after emerging from an area of cover, presumably they paused there just long enough for a bit of a shuffle.

That's a good point. I think you're right.

 

Yeah, there's no way Quinn has the authority to overrule Carrie like that...there was an unacceptable level of insubordination from Quinn and Fara all epsiode. It's one thing to express reservations, it's another to refuse to do your job or deliberately half-ass it. It would be one thing if Carrie's orders or plan were crazy, but in fact, her plan worked perfectly. and unfolded in a way that had to be a real possibility once they knew Haqqani was still alive.

Thank you! The insubordination in the war room, or whatever it's called, was ridiculous, and probably unrealistic. The guy at the controls of the drone was military, and he ignored the order of his superior. That simply doesn't happen.

[allthatglitters]

It wasn't perfectly clear, but it looked to me like the cars diverged after emerging from an area of cover, presumably they paused there just long enough for a bit of a shuffle.

 

Yeah, there's no way Quinn has the authority to overrule Carrie like that...there was an unacceptable level of insubordination from Quinn and Fara all epsiode. It's one thing to express reservations, it's another to refuse to do your job or deliberately half-ass it. It would be one thing if Carrie's orders or plan were crazy, but in fact, her plan worked perfectly. and unfolded in a way that had to be a real possibility once they knew Haqqani was still alive.  

 

I re-watched the ending. That the whole area was just dry weeds, no cover at all, both while Aayan walks along to the meet up, and when the vehicles are driving off.  Convenient that a forest sprouts up suddenly. Also convenient that the ONE and only drone they can commission for such a high ranking job happens to be at such angle and just can't be controlled well enough to follow behind the vehicles from a high enough angle and so because of the instant tree line can't get above the vehicles enough to get a clear picture of the road.  You'd think they'd have thought of the old car shell game and have a few drones in the area. Even a pan back in order to watch all three smoke trails for as long as they could would help. Presumably all three vehicles would eventually meet up.

 

Also why not take some shots in front of all vehicles? Blow up the road. Force the occupants to have to get out again.

 

I'm disturbed by the glib acceptance of the kill room, not only by Carrie, of taking out this poor "asset" after he was obviously emotionally manipulated. And if they were so matter-of-fact about the drone attack going ahead regardless, why would anyone be upset by Aayan being shot if they were just about to blast him into smithereens a few seconds earlier? How could Carrie be acting on emotions guilt/anger about Aayan's death when she was such a cold blooded animal that she not only was prepared to take him out but seduced him and led him there.

 

I don't know why I am so intrigued by this show. It glorifies the idea that "we" have to be just as cold blooded as "they" are. That we can't outsmart them with simple field work, working informants, and better technology. That it takes a manic bi-polar psycho boss to do this kind of job. And yes, they should have listened to the psycho and taken the shot anyways, for reasons others have said. Is a brown-skinned foreign innocent that much less worthy of living than a something American not-so-innocent?  I think the whole show is twisted, not just Carrie.

[Boundary]

 

And if they were so matter-of-fact about the drone attack going ahead regardless, why would anyone be upset by Aayan being shot if they were just about to blast him into smithereens a few seconds earlier? How could Carrie be acting on emotions guilt/anger about Aayan's death when she was such a cold blooded animal that she not only was prepared to take him out but seduced him and led him there.

A pertinent question that needs to be asked more forcefully. Why is Carrie suddenly so emotional that Aayan is dead, could it be because she didn't get to take him out herself? Well, that wouldn't make sense. Her reaction is opposite of what should have been. She should be more emotional that Saul has been captured, that she'd been outplayed somehow. Despite everyone's reactions, especially Fara and Quinn's, her seduction worked and while she won that particular battle, she also lost big time. She needs to connect the dots between Tasleem, Haqqani and the mole Boyd. Unless she does that she'll be on the back foot.

 

 The insubordination in the war room, or whatever it's called, was ridiculous, and probably unrealistic. The guy at the controls of the drone was military, and he ignored the order of his superior. That simply doesn't happen.

 

 

I couldn't say anything about realism because I've never been exposed to that environment. However, as a viewer, what I can say is that while there's definitely a chain of command it's also not a dictatorship. Clearly Carrie's order was out of line, as indicated by the dissent of two other seniors in that room, Quinn and Redmond. By disregarding Carrie's order, the guy at the controls must have felt he had enough cover to survive a future investigation. To kill a former head of the whole of the CIA on the orders of a chief of one station, no special circumstance can mitigate that.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Boundary

[shapeshifter]

I knew Aayan was toast as soon as they showed him lying in the sun, not only in a crucifixion position, but with his eyes closed like he was already dead.

Here's what I don't get: why would Haqqani (sp?) behave this way? Why take the risk of showing up where he knew the CIA satellites and drones could target him? Wasn't there a huge risk that the CIA would not have recognized Saul or that they would have ordered the drone strike anyway, as Carrie wanted? Why not just kill the nephew quietly, stay in hiding, possibly preserving the illusion that you're dead, and then use the captive Saul in whatever way Haqqani plans to use him (ransom, blackmail, torture, publicity, etc.)...

Don't forget that Haqqani is dying of kidney failure. He would have relished going out in a second drone strike (drawing attention to the wedding strike that didn't even get him) that kills the former CIA director too.

Bingo, ahpny. This is exactly what's bothering me too. The kidnapping of Saul took place long before Douchebag Dennis tipped off the bad guys that the CIA was tracking Aayan. So either Saul was kidnapped for some other reason, or...

Saul was kidnapped because he was caught spying on what's-his-name in the men's room and because he was the frickin' ex-director of the CIA.

...At this point, if Haqqani perpetrates a terrorist attack, it's on her.

--which was likely as much of a motivation for her to order the hit as was any revenge.

Anyone know specifically where the last scenes with Aayan were shot? I know somewhere in the Middle East, but it's very small-worldish how much the foliage looks like California desert--but the rock outcroppings are more unique.

Edited November 6, 2014 by shapeshifter

[shelley1234]

For me, Carrie's crazed reaction to Aayan's death had little to do with Aayan himself and any feelings she may have for him, but more to do with...well....Brody.  It brought back all those thoughts and emotions about everything that happened with him and how he died right in front of her eyes as well.  This time she felt she could make the person who did it PAY and was rabid to do that since when it was Brody she just had to sit there, let it happen and do nothing about it.  

[Latverian Diplomat]

I'm disturbed by the glib acceptance of the kill room, not only by Carrie, of taking out this poor "asset" after he was obviously emotionally manipulated. 

I think you are supposed to disturbed by it. The show has tried to portray Aayan sympathetically. On the other hand, he's not a willing or knowing cooperator, he's a dupe. This was never going to end well for him. Had they said, work for us, help us find your uncle and we'll protect you, he never would have agreed to that. 

[Milburn Stone]

All that goes out the window, of course, when it comes to publicly explaining their decision to kill "a former CIA director" just to avoid a setback, so I think Quinn's reasons for stopping her were sensible and professional, not just ethical or emotional. 

 

I think the public-explaining was a bigger factor than I realized when I watched, so thank you for pointing out that dimension. The public-explaining becomes a really big factor when you take into account that as far as the public may have been informed, Chief Bad Guy is already dead--killed in the drone attack that started this season. To have to admit that you killed the former CIA Director because you had to, because you secretly fucked up that other attack and killed forty civilians without killing your target even though you told the world you killed your target, and now you were killing your target for real to cover that up, would be suicidal for the reputation of the agency and Carrie's career.

[shapeshifter]

I think the public-explaining was a bigger factor than I realized when I watched, so thank you for pointing out that dimension....

I too didn't think of this when watching, likely because we saw Saul running around like a rookie spy rather than being escorted by body guards.

...The public-explaining becomes a really big factor when you take into account that as far as the public may have been informed, Chief Bad Guy is already dead--killed in the drone attack that started this season. To have to admit that you killed the former CIA Director because you had to, because you secretly fucked up that other attack and killed forty civilians without killing your target even though you told the world you killed your target, and now you were killing your target for real to cover that up, would be suicidal for the reputation of the agency and Carrie's career.

--not to mention that word might have gotten out that the target was about to die of a terminal illness anyway. Of course, his attending soldiers might be hoping to inherit his position and/or do violence to U.S. interests, but that would not be as interesting in the news cycles as Haqqani being about to die of natural causes when he and the ex-CIA director were killed by a U.S. drone.

[Neurochick]

I don't know why I am so intrigued by this show. It glorifies the idea that "we" have to be just as cold blooded as "they" are. That we can't outsmart them with simple field work, working informants, and better technology. That it takes a manic bi-polar psycho boss to do this kind of job. And yes, they should have listened to the psycho and taken the shot anyways, for reasons others have said. Is a brown-skinned foreign innocent that much less worthy of living than a something American not-so-innocent?  I think the whole show is twisted, not just Carrie.

 

 

I agree.  I think that is the question this show asks.  How can you fight an enemy when someone is willing to blow away their own nephew like it was nothing?  How can you fight that?  

[tljgator]

 

Anyone know specifically where the last scenes with Aayan were shot? I know somewhere in the Middle East, but it's very small-worldish how much the foliage looks like California desert--but the rock outcroppings are more unique.

shapeshifter, I thought the whole season was filmed in Capetown, South Africa

[LotusFlower]

I couldn't say anything about realism because I've never been exposed to that environment. However, as a viewer, what I can say is that while there's definitely a chain of command it's also not a dictatorship. Clearly Carrie's order was out of line, as indicated by the dissent of two other seniors in that room, Quinn and Redmond. By disregarding Carrie's order, the guy at the controls must have felt he had enough cover to survive a future investigation. To kill a former head of the whole of the CIA on the orders of a chief of one station, no special circumstance can mitigate that.

A military officer at the controls of a drone has a very specific and narrowly-focused job. In fact, it's his sole job - to control all aspects of the drone, including finding targets, and firing when ordered. In no way should he be paying attention to other factors going on in the room, ie. whether or not his chain of command is making the right decision. He doesn't have the training, nor more importantly, the authority, to do that. And if they took the shot and killed Saul, only Carrie would be held accountable. In fact, this season started on that very scenerio. Carrie, the "drone queen," took the heat for the missed target, while the guy at the controls, although morally conflicted, did not.

[Boundary]

A military officer at the controls of a drone has a very specific and narrowly-focused job. In fact, it's his sole job - to control all aspects of the drone, including finding targets, and firing when ordered. In no way should he be paying attention to other factors going on in the room, ie. whether or not his chain of command is making the right decision. He doesn't have the training, nor more importantly, the authority, to do that. And if they took the shot and killed Saul, only Carrie would be held accountable. In fact, this season started on that very scenerio. Carrie, the "drone queen," took the heat for the missed target, while the guy at the controls, although morally conflicted, did not.

 

 

But the guy at the controls is not a drone, he exercises some form of control, which becomes significant when the order given is under some dispute. When Saul is dead, not only is Carrie's career over but arguably the guy's at the controls as well, he would have to explain himself given that Quinn and Redmond basically ruled that Carrie was mentally incapacitated. Don't get me wrong, this is not a clear cut answer and it could go either way but there is enough grounds to defend both cases.  All I'm saying is that this situation is different enough from the earlier episode in that Carrie's order could be disputed.

[shapeshifter]

shapeshifter, I thought the whole season was filmed in Capetown, South Africa

Ah! Thanks! The scifi series Outcasts was filmed there too. Beautiful vistas.

[Turtle]

A military officer at the controls of a drone has a very specific and narrowly-focused job. In fact, it's his sole job - to control all aspects of the drone, including finding targets, and firing when ordered. In no way should he be paying attention to other factors going on in the room, ie. whether or not his chain of command is making the right decision. He doesn't have the training, nor more importantly, the authority, to do that.

 

 

True as that may be, he does have the responsibility to *not* follow an unlawful order, and it's not only possible but also likely that killing an American hostage is unlawful.  

Edited November 6, 2014 by Turtle

[LotusFlower]

But the guy at the controls is not a drone, he exercises some form of control, which becomes significant when the order given is under some dispute. When Saul is dead, not only is Carrie's career over but arguably the guy's at the controls as well, he would have to explain himself given that Quinn and Redmond basically ruled that Carrie was mentally incapacitated. Don't get me wrong, this is not a clear cut answer and it could go either way but there is enough grounds to defend both cases.  All I'm saying is that this situation is different enough from the earlier episode in that Carrie's order could be disputed.

In the military, when you're in battle (and that includes the "war room/kill room") and are given an order, you do it. You don't think about it, and you're not supposed to think about it. All the "thinking" and rationalizing and decision-making is done by the higher-ups, be it generals in the field, or CIA station chiefs. This isn't my way of thinking, this is how the military works. Therefore, the guy at the controls would never get in trouble if the scenerio played out. Yes, Quinn and Redmond were objecting to her order, but he doesn't take his order from them, and Carrie is their boss, as well as his. She overrules and usurps whatever authority they have.

Was Carrie mentally incapacitated when she gave the order? Again, that's not for the guy at the controls to discern, let alone even consider. And you're also discounting the possibility that as station chief, Carrie might have information that others in the room don't have. What if she had info. that the terrorists were using a guy that looked like Saul, to fool them into not firing? Maybe a silly-sounding example, but it goes to the point of everyone has a job to do, and if the guy didn't fire when ordered because he didn't know this inside scoop, now that is the scenerio in which he'd be in trouble.

True as that may be, he does have the responsibility to *not* follow an unlawful order, and it's not only possible but also likely that killing an American hostage is unlawful.

If he fired the shot and Saul was killed, he didn't kill an American hostage, Carrie did.

[Turtle]

If he fired the shot and Saul was killed, he didn't kill an American hostage, Carrie did.​

 

 

I really don't think that's how it works.  If they were in a ground war and Carrie ordered him to rape all the women in a village, he HAS to do it, and he has no legal responsibility for it?  If she ordered him to turn and shoot Quinn in the head?  In fact, there are laws that require members of the military to refuse to follow unlawful orders; they *are* responsible for the consequences if they follow unlawful orders.  Not trying to pick a fight, I swear, but you can google it pretty easily.  That said, everything happened in the kill room pretty quickly and was pretty hectic, and this show doesn't always go for realism, so there's no telling what the show wanted us to get from that scene.

[LotusFlower]

I really don't think that's how it works.  If they were in a ground war and Carrie ordered him to rape all the women in a village, he HAS to do it, and he has no legal responsibility for it?  If she ordered him to turn and shoot Quinn in the head?  In fact, there are laws that require members of the military to refuse to follow unlawful orders; they *are* responsible for the consequences if they follow unlawful orders.  Not trying to pick a fight, I swear, but you can google it pretty easily.  That said, everything happened in the kill room pretty quickly and was pretty hectic, and this show doesn't always go for realism, so there's no telling what the show wanted us to get from that scene.

With all due respect, your scenerios are not at all analogous to what happened in this episode. The military officer in question is a drone strike operator. He mans the controls, and fires when ordered. Nothing unlawful about that. And yes, the scene in the kill room was quick and hectic, which I think goes to my point about the need for order and a chain of command. Similar to the battlefield, where soldiers aren't expected to step back and analyze or consider other options. The rules are in place specifically because things often get chaotic in war.

[alexvillage]

Going back a little bit on the discussion, I think Carrie is supposed to be a very complex character and I lie that, I like the conflict. My problem is that the writers and Claire Danes - yes, the super duper actress - are failing to delivery what, in my head, would be an interesting character/plot. Things get too rushed, inconsistent and absurd.

I keep watching hoping to get a glimpse of the earlier seasons, when I could suspend disbelief and enjoy. It is hard not to roll my eyes.

[atua]

All that goes out the window, of course, when it comes to publicly explaining their decision to kill "a former CIA director" just to avoid a setback, so I think Quinn's reasons for stopping her were sensible and professional, not just ethical or emotional. Interesting how Quinn and Carrie were, in a sense, reliving the scene of Sandy's death (though at a safer distance) and reversing roles while again making impossible split-second decisions. Then it was Carrie saying of their abducted superior, "We just can't leave him" -- this time it was Quinn saying, in effect, "We can't just kill him."

And who in the CIA will be taking responsibility when the Taliban-proxy terrorists regularly trot Saul out to make propaganda videos denouncing the USA? Sure, it'll be after they've thoroughly tortured him over weeks/months, but it'll look no better for the US for all that. There's no reason to think they'll ever be able to rescue Saul alive. Brody and Walker were only found because Abu Nazir wanted them to be found.

[sparklemotion]

She hasn't been without flaws in her work but I am so over people yelling at Fara. 

[bunnywithanaxe]

Yeah, not at all patriarchal, right? 

 

I am really glad she told Carrie to shove it. At this point Fara is a bigger asset than she is.

 

[EyesGlazed]

She hasn't been without flaws in her work but I am so over people yelling at Fara. 

 

 

Yeah, not at all patriarchal, right? 

I don't think it's so much posters yelling at Fara, it's posters yelling at the writers for unrealistically making this trained spy so clueless.  That was at least my point in ranting about why she didn't figure out someone had been in the safe house.

[paramitch]

I'm thoroughly enjoying the season, but I'm really puzzled by the question (more, the implied necessity) that we like Carrie at all.

 

I enjoy Carrie's real complexity as a character. But I don't think she's ever been painted as particularly "likable" nor do I think she's meant to be, going all the way back to her first moments in episode one, when she stumbled in from a one-nighter, had a quick crotch bath, showed up late at work, and then quickly proceeded to alienate or offput pretty much everyone around her with her tactlessness, arrogance and unbearable tension, and her tendency to barely tolerate even those who treated her with real and palpable affection, like Saul and her family.

 

But I do love her, even when I don't like her. Because for me, yes, Carrie's frustrating but she's still admirable and brave. Everyone on this show is tainted because the landscape they travel is one in which even the best and most patriotic can be twisted into betrayal or faced with cruel and frequently impossible choices. Carrie is willing to spend herself -- her life, her mental health, her own body, in order to do her job, and under impossible pressures (and too often while being judged by her coworkers in double-standards that would not apply to male operatives).

 

Carrie came to care about Aayan, but to me her breakdown at the end wasn't about Aayan's death so much as its worthlessness; in her role in maneuvering him to that point on the chessboard (and directly to his own death) all for naught, followed by the bitterly devastating reveal of Saul, who is probably the one person on the planet she truly loves--directly after her plan worked exactly as it should have--but for Fara and Boyd. When it all went to hell and it was all for nothing.

 

And what is up with Former Drunk Agent (eta: Redmond)-- is he playing both sides of the fence as well? 

 

Redmond is so interesting. I like that he was presented as easy to overlook, a Lockhart-lite blowhard sexist out to get Carrie--but he's shown himself to have real subtlety and knowledge, and I've liked the kind of wary rapport that's been building between him and Carrie thus far. The moment here when Carrie asked him about what he thought of her methods (after the whole room witnessed Aayan's declaration of love) was fascinating--Redmond's supportive response was a pretty big deal for the character based on what we've seen so far. I'm rooting for him to be the one who realized Boyd is compromised. He seemed on the edge of figuring it out here.

Mr. EB was yelling at her to take the shot because they are either going to kill Saul, hold him hostage, or torture him for information and then kill him. None of these are good situations for Saul so killing him now at least puts him out of his misery and avoids a slow painful torturous death. I think that if Saul could have communicated with Carrie in that moment, he would have told her to take the shot because the mission is more important than one person. But I also think that if Saul and Carrie had switched positions, Saul couldn't take the shot and let her die. He would tell everyone that they would find another way.

I think this is really a superb summing-up of both Saul and Carrie's characters, and agree completely.

I would also like to say that I hate the bipolar storyline.  It always feels like very casual demonization of a large group of people whose condition varies greatly and across a wide spectrum.  But on the show we have often people like loser-traitor husband of the ambassador referring to them as crazy or "hard core drug" users.

I have a bipolar sister, but I don't see Carrie as symbolizing an entire group, and she is (further) to me still the hero of this show. She's always been painted as a gifted agent and analyst, to almost superhero degrees. I like that the show has been fairly unvarnished about Carrie's mental health struggles, but those were primarily due to her (and Saul's) choices, and I definitely don't think Carrie as a character is demonizing large groups of other bipolar sufferers anymore than Walter White was demonizing science teachers.

Carrie is not a good manager, but we've been shown and told that she is a brilliant recruiter. She had a worldwide network that managed to keep Brody more or less alive with a ten million dollar bounty on him, apparently to pay back favors. In my own non-Homeland related work, I've seen people who wete exceptional at certain aspects of their duties get promoted to management positions. Certainly Carrie's CIA situation stretches credibility, but I can suspend some belief when a show manages to deliver on the emotional level, and this episode did.

Within the "Homeland" universe, I think Carrie's a decent/okay manager who's been able to prove stability and competence for at least a year after Brody, and who is further able to make leaps and set the chessboard for brilliant strategic strokes, which is where her real value lies. Carrie's leadership skills, to me, have actually been okay. She's not warm, yet she's fiercely loyal, and is battling horrific odds in an industry that insists that no matter how good she is at her job, a man should be sitting in her chair.

Is it Carrie's job to motivate her subordinates? Well, yea, I suppose, but I would say it's not exactly priority #1 on this day, in the middle of a mission.

The interesting thing is that we've seen that Carrie is actually capable of bringing a pretty considerable level of real charm and likability when she wants, but it's either (1) when she's in a rare situation of trust, as with Saul or near the end with Brody, or (2) when she is working a suspect (the other 90% of the time).

For me, the ghost of 9-11 and the CIA bombing are with Carrie at every moment, along with her frantic desire to avoid future events. The worst part about this episode for me was the sheer vertigo drop in the end, as every coin Carrie had spent was for nothing. She had willingly used herself (right down to her own body), her abilities, her team members, and Aayan in order to get them where they needed to be. And it had all worked! She'd actually managed to get Aayan to literally deliver Haqqani to them. But because of Boyd's treachery, Saul's lapse in judgment, and Fara's monumental carelessness, they lost it all, and in the cruelest way possible.

 

Spy work isn't for the needy. If you need validation or hand-holding, maybe find a different line of work? Look at Carrie and Quinn, and even Saul - dogged determination, a calling to serving their country, constant reprimands, and they keep at it, without needing a pep talk or a pat on the back.

I unabashedly adore Saul, and I even love those little glints of razor-sharp ruthlessness that gleam out occasionally amidst all the huggable-dad stuff. But he's also shown himself to be every bit as brilliant and cold-blooded as the situation requires, not least when it came to Brody or even Carrie herself in the past. One of my favorite things about this show is that I know Saul loves Carrie and that she loves him, and I was devastated for both of them when his presence was revealed at the rendezvous here. But Saul would have supported Carrie's call for a strike there, and to me, rightly so.

 

Carrie's shouted at Quinn, Fara and Lockhart. Which of her co-workers still like her?  After moping back home mooning over her, Quinn doesn't even look like he'd hate-fuck her now.

<snip> At this point, if Haqqani perpetrates a terrorist attack, it's on her.

We've seen every major male character on this show shout at a coworker: Saul, Quinn, Lockhart, Dar Adal, Brody, et al. I don't see them lying awake at night hoping their coworkers still like them afterward. Carrie's entire life revolves around trying to keep the next 9-11 from happening. I can forgive a little shouting.

 

Meanwhile, how is she culpable if Haqqani succeeds with an attack? She's not. Carrie's strategy worked like clockwork and if it hadn't been for Fara and Boyd, the rendezvous would have been a huge intelligence coup. I like Fara but I'm actually hoping her incompetence here comes to light--she managed to disregard, not just one signal that things weren't right at the safe house, but several--the blinking alarm, the broken tape, the tipped bag. It was a great example of how a small error by a single agent can bring down empires. Carrie asked Fara to show that she was capable of simply and securely taking out the trash: She wasn't.

 

I think that is the question this show asks.  How can you fight an enemy when someone is willing to blow away their own nephew like it was nothing?  How can you fight that?  

You just defined what is so fascinating yet sad about "Homeland" to me. I think the show has done a really good job overall of depicting the stalemate of Western-Islamic Terrorist conflicts, illustrating the frustration and hopelessness of battling antagonists whose extremism cannot be assuaged. The fact that it's also managed to do so while making those antagonists human and interesting is, for me as a viewer, really special. I loathed Javadi's actions last season but I also found him utterly riveting and believable, and while I grew to care about Aayan here, he was also able to compartmentalize enough in order to directly enable the world's leading terrorist (and the man who had pretty blatantly even killed Aayan's and his own family to stay hidden).

I am really glad she told Carrie to shove it. At this point Fara is a bigger asset than she is.

Fara just screwed up the biggest potential intelligence coup in the "Homeland" universe since Nazir. The CIA has plenty of people who can follow other people (which is what Fara did when she lucked out on Haqqani). But I'd argue that this season has actually shown that Fara is simply not cut out for this, culminating in her incompetence at the safe house. (It's also worth pointing out that Carrie herself proved that she could get the info about Haqqani out of Aayan within two days on her own terms--and she did.)

 

I respect that Fara has a good heart, but Aayan's death is directly due to Fara's actions. I'm now hoping that the outcome either pushes Fara to steel herself to be tougher, or that she simply walks away.

[LotusFlower]

I like Fara but I'm actually hoping her incompetence here comes to light--she managed to disregard, not just one signal that things weren't right at the safe house, but several--the blinking alarm, the broken tape, the tipped bag. It was a great example of how a small error by a single agent can bring down empires. Carrie asked Fara to show that she was capable of simply and securely taking out the trash: She wasn't.

Great post (the whole post...I'm just highlighting one graph). I agree with you about Carrie's complexities, and also how the show has always been pretty consistent with her character. Carrie is unlikeable some (most?) of the time, and Fara is likeable, but so what? Carrie is brilliant at her job, and Fara screwed up. Which is more important in spy work, and which makes for a more interesting character for a TV show? I liked the scene when Fara was sort of pumping her chest, and Carrie responded by dressing her down and told her to grab a trash bag. It was similar to when the drone operator from the first drone attack approached Carrie in the bar to complain about the miss, and Carrie put it in a completely different perspective, and told him he was out of line. To me, she's a fascinating character, and that's not even touching on her bipolar disorder.

[Milburn Stone]

But I do love her, even when I don't like her. Because for me, yes, Carrie's frustrating but she's still admirable and brave. Everyone on this show is tainted because the landscape they travel is one in which even the best and most patriotic can be twisted into betrayal or faced with cruel and frequently impossible choices. Carrie is willing to spend herself -- her life, her mental health, her own body, in order to do her job, and under impossible pressures (and too often while being judged by her coworkers in double-standards that would not apply to male operatives).

 

I couldn't agree more with your whole post, and as for the above, it bears noting that the job for which Carrie is willing to expend her entire self is not bagging groceries--it's protecting the lives of the people of the United States.

[bunnywithanaxe]

I don't think it's so much posters yelling at Fara, it's posters yelling at the writers for unrealistically making this trained spy so clueless. That was at least my point in ranting about why she didn't figure out someone had been in the safe house.

I thought she was talking about Saul and Carrie and -- who else? Dar Adal? They treat her like a ten- year old. Never occured to me that comment was aimed at posters, so apologies if my response came off that way.

Although I see your point- it's the writers that are treating her like a ten year old.

Edited November 8, 2014 by bunnywithanaxe

[shapeshifter]

I thought she was talking about Saul and Carrie and -- who else? Dar Adal? They treat her like a ten- year old. Never occured to me that comment was aimed at posters, so apologies if my response came off that way.

Although I see your point- it's the writers that are treating her like a ten year old.

I keep thinking this is leading up to Fara going off the rails in an effort to stay true to her personal sense of ethics.

[Milburn Stone]

It occurs to me to enlarge the statement I made three posts upthread. Carrie's job, the one she's uncommonly dedicated to, is not merely protecting the lives of the people of the United States, as if that weren't enough. It's protecting the existence of the United States itself. Because the threat we face is existential. If the 9/11 plot had been thoroughly carried out instead of thwarted in part, we not only would have lost the World Trade Center, we would have lost the White House, the Capitol, and the Pentagon. In the chaos that ensued, who knows how much of our government would have survived? To say what's at stake is the survival of the nation we know as the United States is not paranoia, it's reasonable. The destruction of the United States is clearly what our enemies lust after. If a cardinal rule of drama is that there have to be "stakes," this show has them out the wazoo because of the real-llfe threat it dramatizes. Which is why Carrie, the one who goes further than anyone else partly because she's crazy, is the hero we root for no matter what.

Edited November 9, 2014 by Milburn Stone

[stillshimpy]

I agree.  I think that is the question this show asks.  How can you fight an enemy when someone is willing to blow away their own nephew like it was nothing?  How can you fight that?

 

After setting up Aayan's family to die as his cover presumably.  At least poor Aayan was happy up until thirty seconds before his tea-slurping-for-his-amusement Uncle blew him the fuck away.  The actor who plays Aayan likely has a pretty bright future ahead of him (and yes, I've seen Life of Pi already) because he has a rare gift to make a person care.  

 

He wasn't stupid or overly naive, or overly trusting.  He was just a person and a young one at that. He only trusted people he thought cared about him, because he cared about them.  His Uncle didn't even have to kill him, that was the most brutal part of that.  I can't imagine how easy it would have been to turn Aayan into someone who hated the West in that moment, he'd literally been fucked over and used as a means to an end.  I know his Uncle killed him because Aayan had revealed that he was still alive, but I also wondered if it wasn't partially a mercy killing.  He knew the US wouldn't drop a drone on him with his human shield Saul in place.  He knew his nephew had been duped into betraying him  

 

So why did he kill Aayan in that moment?  I think that's what got to Carrie as much as anything.  There was no reason to kill Aayan other than to flip Carrie the bird.  Or to spare him more pain, because that's all that revelation about Carrie would bring him. 

 

As for Carrie being likable, she's not, but that's never been the point of her character.  She's fascinating most of the time. She's always difficult as hell.  

 

As for Fara,  now there's someone who shouldn't be as naive as she is often depicted as being. She's been at this too long.  I like her, but she should go work for the UN or the diplomatic corp or something that doesn't involve all of the things she does know working for the CIA involves.    It's funny, Fara is likable.  I found Aayan very likable.  This show is really, really hard on likable characters.  

 

I have a theory that Mark Moses must be a real sweetheart of a man.  Seriously.  No one who plays such irredeemable, wastes of skin and air over and over must have a very tranquil and chirpy inner-world to try and compensate for it.  

Edited November 11, 2014 by stillshimpy

[jeansheridan]

I was surprised that Saul had no personal security. As an executive of a military contractor allowing himself to travel without a body guard seemed odd to me.

 

Redmond' s side eye after the I love you scene was AWESOME. Forget Saul. I want Redmond to live. I like that he is so practical. And honest enough for a spy. And he reassured Carrie without bullshitting her. 

[Kel Varnsen]

I re-watched the ending. That the whole area was just dry weeds, no cover at all, both while Aayan walks along to the meet up, and when the vehicles are driving off.  Convenient that a forest sprouts up suddenly. Also convenient that the ONE and only drone they can commission for such a high ranking job happens to be at such angle and just can't be controlled well enough to follow behind the vehicles from a high enough angle and so because of the instant tree line can't get above the vehicles enough to get a clear picture of the road.  You'd think they'd have thought of the old car shell game and have a few drones in the area. Even a pan back in order to watch all three smoke trails for as long as they could would help. Presumably all three vehicles would eventually meet up.

Drones have IR (heat vision) cameras those should have made tracking which SUV was which much easier, even with tree cover. If I know that the producers should too.

 

With all due respect, your scenerios are not at all analogous to what happened in this episode. The military officer in question is a drone strike operator. He mans the controls, and fires when ordered. Nothing unlawful about that. And yes, the scene in the kill room was quick and hectic, which I think goes to my point about the need for order and a chain of command. Similar to the battlefield, where soldiers aren't expected to step back and analyze or consider other options. The rules are in place specifically because things often get chaotic in war.

Isn't there some kind of chain of command rule where if commander is crazy then 2nd in command has the power to relieve her of duty, even temporarily? Couldn't it be argued that this is what Quinn and Redmond were doing?

[LotusFlower]

Isn't there some kind of chain of command rule where if commander is crazy then 2nd in command has the power to relieve her of duty, even temporarily? Couldn't it be argued that this is what Quinn and Redmond were doing?

I don't agree that Carrie was acting crazy, but regardless, the drone operator was keeping his focus on piloting the drone and waiting for his command. It's not his responsibility to pay attention to other noise and chaos in the room. These are fast-moving scenerios and quick decisions going on, unlike the battlefield, where unstable behavior can be observed by more than one person over a longer or less critical timeframe.

Btw, Quinn is the only one who objected to Carrie's order, Redmond didn't, and he's Carrie's deputy, or 2nd in command as station chief, right? So that means that the pilot let Quinn alone override Carrie, and - what is Quinn's title or level of authority exactly? That's always been mysterious to me. And more reason to side-eye this scenerio.

[Kel Varnsen]

I don't agree that Carrie was acting crazy, but regardless, the drone operator was keeping his focus on piloting the drone and waiting for his command. It's not his responsibility to pay attention to other noise and chaos in the room. These are fast-moving scenerios and quick decisions going on, unlike the battlefield, where unstable behavior can be observed by more than one person over a longer or less critical timeframe.

Btw, Quinn is the only one who objected to Carrie's order, Redmond didn't, and he's Carrie's deputy, or 2nd in command as station chief, right? So that means that the pilot let Quinn alone override Carrie, and - what is Quinn's title or level of authority exactly? That's always been mysterious to me. And more reason to side-eye this scenerio.

If Redmond as station #2 didn't say anything then I think it is less of an issue. The other thing I was surprised by was the fact that they didn't have the drone at least follow one of the SUVs (they just seemed to give up). I mean you have a one in three chance of getting the leader guy and Saul (not terrible odds). And even if you don't they said the the other guys with him were known lieutenants of the leader guy, so wouldn't it be of interest to see where they go. Plus eventually they would have to meet up with their boss. 

Edited November 26, 2014 by Kel Varnsen

[LotusFlower]

If Redmond as station #2 didn't say anything then I think it is less of an issue.

Really? Because I think the opposite - the station chief gives an order, and her #2 doesn't object, and yet the guy listens to Quinn?! That doesn't make sense to me, and it goes to my confusion as to Quinn's title or level of authority.

[Kel Varnsen]

Really? Because I think the opposite - the station chief gives an order, and her #2 doesn't object, and yet the guy listens to Quinn?! That doesn't make sense to me, and it goes to my confusion as to Quinn's title or level of authority.

Yea I wasn't sure how to word that. I think I meant less of an issue in that if the #2 is not objecting there should have been less debate as far the guy controlling the drone guy with respect to the orders he should follow.