S01.E05: Viper

[MisterGlass]

I like the impression that Jim and Harvey are finally getting in step as partners.  They are and may always be miles apart philosophically, but they were tolerating each other and interacting well.  And "What is altruism?" and Jim's accompanying expression was perfect.  I was worried about the superdrug part of this episode, but the way Harvey and Gordon reacted to the crazy really did help sell it.

 

I didn't miss Major Crimes or Barbara.

 

Oswald really stuck his flipper in his mouth with Maroni, but he played through it well.  His ability to recover from things is what makes him a plausible supervillain.  He's worked his way into roughly the same position for Maroni that he held under Fish.  Actually, this may be something of a promotion.  I agree with everyone else, the scene with Oswald, Maroney, and Gordon was a good one.

 

We're only seen the introduction of the Secret Weapon to Falcone.  I think she will work toward a closer relationship overtime, and be a sleeper agent.  I think Fish is planning to kill the Russian mobster, rather than ally with him.  She is her own sleeper agent there.  He is probably her biggest competition for a successor.

 

I may be retconning a bit much, but I tend to think that the files Bruce is looking through are the ones his parents found suspicious.  If they were on hand in the house somewhere, that may be why, and if they are already cherry-picked from other mountains of paperwork, it could explain why Bruce was quick to spot the issues.  Perhaps Thomas and Martha were investigating irregularities, and that's why they became targets.  It may be that Bruce has been homeschooled up to this point.  His interactions do not suggest a boy familiar with how children behave, but rather someone who interacts primarily with adults.  He may have been more of an apprentice to his father than a schoolkid.

 

I do like that Alfred just sat down and started helping, unasked, and that Bruce was so happy about it.  No dialogue needed.  Since Bruce will continue to be involved with Wayne Enterprises, clearing corruption out of there may be the best way of protecting him.  And ridding his own company of crime is a good start for someone planning to rid a city of crime.  It will take years.

[Camera One]

This is a competently made show but it feels like the show is treading water, which is pretty bad for only it's fifth show. I'll watch a few more episodes and hope it improves but if nothing of substance happens, I'm going to have to move on.

 

I'm glad the show isn't moving any faster, if the series wants to sustain itself.  There's nothing I particularly want to see happen.  I'm just content to watch them build the world of Gotham.  I think it was a smart strategy to show the status quo with Falcone, being slowly chipped away and undermined from different factions.  It allows the "good guys" to navigate between them, in the sense that they are fighting among themselves.

 

I'm enjoying the partnership between Jim and Harvey, who injects some much-needed humor with Jim being so earnest and serious.  I liked the scene with them having lunch.

 

The case of the week was alright, and not too special.  But I appreciate that it shed might light into corruption, now with a link to Wayne enterprises.

 

My favorite scenes are probably the ones with Bruce and Alfred.  Bruce's obsessiveness is quite fascinating.  I like MisterGlass's idea that the papers were the files his parents were looking into, and Bruce has the advantage of seeing the aftermath of his parents' death, when Falcone involvement in Arkham became much more obvious and public.  

 

It's a bit sad if Bruce's father was being duped... since Alfred said he worked closely with that woman who claimed to be "middle management".

 

I thought this episode had a nice mix of Jim/Harvey, the case of the week, mob maneuverings with both Maroni and Fish, and Bruce/Alfred.  I didn't really miss Barbara. 

[Snookums]

No that was meant specifically for Falcone.  Fish baited the honey trap with someone who reminded Falcone of his mother and Falcone fell for it.  Gross.

 

 

To quote the inestimable Michael J Nelson, we are knee deep in a Freudian quagmire here. At first I was all "oh PLEASE, this tough ol' gangster who's been sinning since God was in short pants is going to fall for this?" but it was actually a rather brilliant setup, and one that could only be done by someone who knows hims as well as Fish does. She knows he's a old school gentleman whose mama was a saint, that he's an old man, feeling his mortality and the weight of his deeds, that he's watching the empire he built begin to waver and dissolve. She knows his routine and that he probably does the pigeon feeding thing when he's really feeling the melancholy feels.

 

So she gets this young woman, who (and this is important) is a bad actress (bad acting comes across as more sincere then the most Oscar worthy Streep performance) but wants it, wants it bad, trains her up and dresses her as the angelic representation of Falcone's sainted mother, and makes sure she seems to drop from the heavens and is the perfect id-luring blend of the lover and the mother, couples that with the music that stands in his mind for innocence, and poof! It either would work right away or not work at all (and if not, no harm, no foul, Lizzie just walks on). But it did work and he's caught.

 

On another note, speaking of the subconscious desires of mind's depths, is anyone else having trouble reconciling the whole "The Waynes wanted to completely revamp Arkham Asylum" and "NO PSYCHIATRIC HELP FOR OUR SON EVER ON PAIN OF DEATH" things? Even handwaving the idea that they didn't trust local shrinks, these people clearly had the money to bring Freud and Jung back from the grave and make them sumo wrestle had they desired. It is just an odd hill for Alfred to die on. I know it's in the show so nobody can say "Somebody take Bruce to a Goddamn doctor already" but the two things are clashing louder and louder the more this Arkham thing drags on.

[RealityGal]

I may be retconning a bit much, but I tend to think that the files Bruce is looking through are the ones his parents found suspicious.  If they were on hand in the house somewhere, that may be why, and if they are already cherry-picked from other mountains of paperwork, it could explain why Bruce was quick to spot the issues.  Perhaps Thomas and Martha were investigating irregularities, and that's why they became targets.  It may be that Bruce has been homeschooled up to this point.  His interactions do not suggest a boy familiar with how children behave, but rather someone who interacts primarily with adults.  He may have been more of an apprentice to his father than a schoolkid.

Lets just say they were sitting around the house and the Waynes were going through them.  There are boxes and boxes of documents.  And that's generally what you'll see if you're searching for the needle in the haystack.  They maybe made the haystack smaller, but its still a haystack.  You're hiding the needle of underworld figures owning your stock in the haystack of hard to understand legalese and complex financial instruments.  I don't think there is one paper that ties the entire thing together, because that would be too easy to find even in a yearly audit.  A forensic analyst would need months with a multibillion dollar company to figure out how in the world two underworld criminals are somehow getting the gift of Wayne stock.  Is the stock funneled through a subsidiary?  Who is gifting the stock?  Is it going through an officer as part of a compensation package that they then somehow gift to someone in another country that then funnels it to another account that is owned by someone in Maroney's organization?  Is money somehow funneled into projects run by the Maroney/Falcone organizations and then that money used to purchase stock thereby making it a gift?  Which of the subsidiary companies are involved?  And those are all relatively simple ways to get it done, but add to that the complexity of various Wayne Enterprises subsidiaries with layers and layers of Board of Directors, and officers, and middle management...all of whom get stock that they could funnel and it becomes even more confusing.

 

 It just seems highly implausable that a 12 year old child, even a bright one would be able to suss it all out.  I doubt the Wayne's would be able to suss it all out since it would require both complex legal and financial acumen.  It would make much more sense for Bruce to understand the nuts and bolts of the base businesses, but to understand the complex financial and legal structures would be a stretch, for him to figure it all out in a matter of days doesn't really pass the stink test.  I would think even the Wayne's would have to go to someone with more experience in finance and law to figure out how everything was being set up.

 

Unless he has, as a 12 year old learned math to a calculus level (and this is rare for children his age, I would be impressed if he had this at 14 or 15) many of those financial instruments are going to be difficult to understand without context.  Even if you have everything cherry picked.  Finance requires math, but finance is also a man made creation, so you have to generally have a base understanding of calculus and take at least a finance class, and it would require legal knowledge as well.  And even if his dad wanted to train him to run the company, he would likely want to first train him on the base of the business, what does each subsidiary company do, how each company contributes to Wayne Enterprises as a whole?

 

I can't see two loving parents, who seemingly had no idea they were in danger (which I assume because they were walking around in dark, deserted alleys at night with their young son) trying to hammer in complex financial concepts into a 12 year old child's head in the hopes that it will interest him in taking over their company later in life.  I would think they would really want Bruce to know the high level, eagle eye stuff  I would absolutely expect that those two parents would teach him about the businesses that comprise Wayne Enterprises in wider brush strokes, and then push him to study finance when he goes off to college, or to pursue an MBA so he would have the requisite financial background.

[Kromm]

There's something highly ironic about Jada Smith in a scene "teaching" someone to act.

[Danielg342]

Since TV gives us characters like Sheldon and Reid, with their superhuman, nigh implausible intelligence and comprehension, I can buy that the Batkid is that smart too. We're not talking about some normal kid here- it's Bruce Wayne.

 

On the other hand, it's entirely possible that Wayne really doesn't know what he's doing without realizing it. Just because he's pouring over files doesn't mean he comprehends them, and his exchange with Molly Mathis suggests to me that maybe he doesn't understand the difference between the roles of "middle management" and the board of directors.

 

The only way we'll know is how future episodes- and Alfred- treat Wayne's search of information.

 

ETA- Subtle thing: when Fish responded to Nikolai by essentially saying "in my country, things work differently than they did in yours", Fish didn't say that "we live in the United States of America" or even simply "America", she said "we live in Gotham." Makes me wonder if we're going to get some Simpsons-esque puzzle about where in the world Gotham actually is.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Danielg342

[DigitalCount]

I really appreciated Harvey's genuine concern for Jim here. On the surface he wanted to seem all tough, business, but you could tell that the good man inside really wanted to make sure Jim was doing alright.

[Trini]

ETA- Subtle thing: when Fish responded to Nikolai by essentially saying "in my country, things work differently than they did in yours", Fish didn't say that "we live in the United States of America" or even simply "America", she said "we live in Gotham." Makes me wonder if we're going to get some Simpsons-esque puzzle about where in the world Gotham actually is.

 

Probably, Gotham City apparently has its own license plates.

[Kromm]

ETA- Subtle thing: when Fish responded to Nikolai by essentially saying "in my country, things work differently than they did in yours", Fish didn't say that "we live in the United States of America" or even simply "America", she said "we live in Gotham." Makes me wonder if we're going to get some Simpsons-esque puzzle about where in the world Gotham actually is.

The comics are very clear it's in the USA.  The only real mystery is where in the country it is (it moves around every generation or so in terms of where DC implies it is)

You'll know here that it's in the US, despite it DEFINITELY being "out of time" and still somewhat out of space (they're not going to give a state, nor even a region here either), because inevitably we're going to meet Feds from the FBI, or something like that.

[Misanthrope]

Why is this show so bad?

Why didn't someone just lock the producers and writers into a room, force them to read Gotham Central, then do that?

Why are they ruining Renee Montay?

Why are the doing sweet fuck all with Bruce Wayne, yet he's in every episode so damn much?

Why aren't they giving lovable-scumbag portrayer extradordinaire Donal Logue ANYTHING to do?

This show makes me sad.

[Danielg342]

The comics are very clear it's in the USA.  The only real mystery is where in the country it is (it moves around every generation or so in terms of where DC implies it is)You'll know here that it's in the US, despite it DEFINITELY being "out of time" and still somewhat out of space (they're not going to give a state, nor even a region here either), because inevitably we're going to meet Feds from the FBI, or something like that.

Maybe, though there's no guarantee it'll follow the comics. We might also not get a story about “Feds” coming in, although that's unlikely since every procedural that doesn't have the FBI already has an episode where they come in. What we might get is some vague undefined “federal agency” or some such that implies the FBI but doesn't exactly say they're the FBI, kind of like how Gotham's police department mirrors New York's.

[dialyn]

I do like that Alfred just sat down and started helping, unasked, and that Bruce was so happy about it.  No dialogue needed.  Since Bruce will continue to be involved with Wayne Enterprises, clearing corruption out of there may be the best way of protecting him.  And ridding his own company of crime is a good start for someone planning to rid a city of crime.  It will take years.

That was my favorite part, actually.  It establishes the relationship between Bruce and Alfred with a nice bit of subtlety.  I don't mind Bruce being a child genius, somehow.  I think the young fellow they have playing Bruce is good in the role, and not nearly as annoying as the dim woman who is Fish's secret weapon (really, would anyone outside of a television show be taken in by her act, even after the dubious advice she is given by Fish?).  I am not a regular reader of graphic novels and/or comics so I am not well versed in the latest and greatest plot turns in the universe of Gotham, so any detours the show decides to take doesn't bother me.  I have been repulsed by several new shows this year (particularly "How to commit a murder" which has no characters that aren't wallowing in corruption to some degree or another) but, for some reason, I've gotten to enjoy Gotham for its honest try at fitting the Batman canon into a setting that feels believably real and yet is not at all realistic in many regards.  The characters are wrinkled and none is pure of heart, but at least they are layered with other emotions other than pure greed and ambition (okay, some of them aren't but at least there is a mix).  I like the slow evolution of the stories (for example, seeing the Penguin grow layer by layer into the villain he will ultimately become).  I agree that the women are pretty one dimensional, but that's often the case in action based story lines (somehow, men writers don't think women can show strength except as sexual objects).  I'm still hopeful the young cat woman will be allowed more space....I love her intensity, the fluid way she moves, and how she dominates every scene she is allowed to be in.  If Fish disappeared, I wouldn't miss her (a little of her is too much for me).  I guess, for me, the show is my favorite of the new ones on this year...at least interesting enough to keep me watching from week-to-week which I can't say of many others.  This is, I admit, the least likely show to show up on my watch list but it is starting to be one of the few I look forward to.

[ottoDbusdriver]

You'll know here that it's in the US, despite it DEFINITELY being "out of time" and still somewhat out of space (they're not going to give a state, nor even a region here either), because inevitably we're going to meet Feds from the FBI, or something like that.

 

It's kind of like Springfield on "The Simpsons" -- they never nail down exactly where it is, but allude to things close by.

[MarkHB]

Since TV gives us characters like Sheldon and Reid, with their superhuman, nigh implausible intelligence and comprehension, I can buy that the Batkid is that smart too. We're not talking about some normal kid here- it's Bruce Wayne.

ITA. To some extent, maybe we just fall back on the Greatest Handwave of Them All: "Because he's Batman."

 

On the other hand, it's entirely possible that Wayne really doesn't know what he's doing without realizing it. Just because he's pouring over files doesn't mean he comprehends them, and his exchange with Molly Mathis suggests to me that maybe he doesn't understand the difference between the roles of "middle management" and the board of directors.

Yes! He may be able to piece the puzzle together, but we're really seeing how naïve he is.  But the thrilled look on his face when Alfred sat down and started looking through the papers was priceless.  It showed him that a) the adult he trusts most believes in what he's doing, and b) that he's not going to have to do it alone.

 

One thing I noticed in the Liza-Falcone scene: not only was Liza listening to the aria, but her hair had been lightened AND her dress was reminiscent of something from the 40's... likely the sort of thing Falcone's mother might have worn back when he was young.  She did look really pretty in it, though.

[rtms77]

I really hope they haven't replaced Lucius Fox with Mathis. For that mater I want to see Fox step in during Bruce's investigation.

 

Alfred should really be schooling Bruce on the business side of things or at least get  a tutor.  He needs to know how these things work for when he takes over in the future and the event showed just how lost he was. I'm curious how he takes over given that already the company seems very corrupt and it will be entrenched by the time he takes over. The Waynes seem to have been very poor stewards over their company if they were already investigating it when they died.

Edited October 22, 2014 by rtms77

[Milz]

No that was meant specifically for Falcone.  Fish baited the honey trap with someone who reminded Falcone of his mother and Falcone fell for it.  Gross.

 

Holy Oedipus Complex, Batman!

 

Would have been better if she was learning to sing "Nonn' erubescite, reges", instead of "O Mio Babbino Caro"

[MarkHB]

I would think Lucius Fox would be the honest man who eventually gets put in charge.

[Kromm]

I really hope they haven't replaced Lucius Fox with Mathis. For that mater I want to see Fox step in during Bruce's investigation.

We've been denied Leslie Thompkins--a character that actually fits in this time period, so it makes it easier to believe there's no Lucius Fox either(who'd have to be shoehorned a bit and a younger version to fit). 

[MisterGlass]

 

I can't see two loving parents, who seemingly had no idea they were in danger (which I assume because they were walking around in dark, deserted alleys at night with their young son)...

 

The Waynes were compared to pillars of society on par with Falcone.  I can believe that they felt safe in their city.  Falcone feels competent to deal with whatever arises.  If the Waynes did know that there were company irregularities, they may only have feared a legal battle.  Bruce is confident in his money and what it can do for him.  Money, position, and resources may have given the Waynes a false sense of security too.

 

 

I would think Lucius Fox would be the honest man who eventually gets put in charge.

 

That would work.  He could start out as a mid-level ally of Bruce, and help in the struggle to clean up the company.

[Trini]

 

It just seems highly implausable that a 12 year old child, even a bright one would be able to suss it all out.

 

Seriously. We all get it; he's going to be Batman one day.  Dial it back a notch; he's only 12.

[Flyingwoman]

Loved the Morphine clip mid-ep! Crazy-bluesy vibe fits the show aesthetic perfectly.

Interesting Selina cameo... is something coming up that they need to remind us she's still alive?

Thought these were actually the best villains to date, although the professor's death scene would have been hilarious even minus "What's altruism?" Agreed that Donal does not have enough to do on this show.

I thought Cobblepot handled himself well, considering. I would have been screaming like a baby once they started up that slicer. His silent "Thank you" to Gordon seemed sincere, too. Hope Cobblepot gets the chance to return the favor.

[Chicago Redshirt]

I liked a lot about the episode, but dislike that Venom was explicitly named dropped as being in use by the military at this point. This is 10 years (minimum) before Bats puts on the cape and cowl, and thus probably 12+ years before Bane would make the scene. Seems like if Venom is a known quantity that early it would have surfaced far earlier than it did.

[RealityGal]

I really hope they haven't replaced Lucius Fox with Mathis. For that mater I want to see Fox step in during Bruce's investigation.

 

Alfred should really be schooling Bruce on the business side of things or at least get  a tutor.  He needs to know how these things work for when he takes over in the future and the event showed just how lost he was. I'm curious how he takes over given that already the company seems very corrupt and it will be entrenched by the time he takes over. The Waynes seem to have been very poor stewards over their company if they were already investigating it when they died.

 

I've only watched the movies, I had always envisioned Bruce being very bright, probably home tutored on normal subjects, but doing exceedingly well, and when the time came going off to an Ivy League school (because frankly, with that sort of money you could probably be a moron and still get in) and then getting an MBA in Finance.  Maybe he would be a few years younger than most kids when he completed his MBA, but after that point he would have the acumen to take over a huge company.

[jagfan05]

Three questions...

1. Why does everyone assume that it's Wayne Enterprises that could be the one that has something to do with the murder of the Waynes rather than WellZyn? I mean WellZyn is the one that wanted to keep Viper in production and when they found out the Waynes were going shut it down had as much plausibility to kill them off as Wayne Enterprises right?

 

2. At the end of the show when Mathis is talking to someone on the phone...can we assume she was talking to someone from WellZyn?

 

3. Also, does anyone know a good site online that gives a good detail plot summary/synopsis in case you didn't understand something in the show and can refer back to? I have seen sites put some out regularly but they aren't very detailed.

 

Thanks!

Edited October 23, 2014 by jagfan05

[Camera One]

1. Why does everyone assume that it's Wayne Enterprises that could be the one that has something to do with the murder of the Waynes rather than WellZyn? I mean WellZyn is the one that wanted to keep Viper in production and when they found out the Waynes were going shut it down had as much plausibility to kill them off as Wayne Enterprises right?

 

I assumed WellZyn was a subsidiary of Wayne enterprises?  I'm not sure exactly.

[Kromm]

I assumed WellZyn was a subsidiary of Wayne enterprises?  I'm not sure exactly.

It is. They outright said so.

[MisterGlass]

Mathis was conspiring with someone.  Since she works for Wayne Enterprises directly and was covering up Wellzyne's mess and appears willing to have Jim and Harvey dealt with if they find out too much, it's clear that corruption has seeped into the parent company.

[jagfan05]

Yes I know that WellZyn is a subsidiary of Wayne Enterprises but again couldn't it have been more WellZyn having to do with the murders of the Waynes rather than Wayne Enterprises? Or maybe I just don't understand the term subsidiary enough and they are one in the same?

[Actionmage]

Or maybe I just don't understand the term subsidiary enough and they are one in the same?

 

I was curious and looked up 'subsidiary'. Here is Wikipedia's entry:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidiary  I then noticed a link to 'Division' also and read that. For me? I need to know if Wellzyn is truly a subsidiary or a division.

 

There's something brewing in Wellzyn, but Mathis is claiming middle management in the parent company.  She is also answering to someone. Whether that someone is on the W.E. board, outside, or a whole other party ( a Wayne enterprises rival; not just mobsters had to be interested in adding W.E. to their coffers), is going to make this interesting.

[Kromm]

Yes I know that WellZyn is a subsidiary of Wayne Enterprises but again couldn't it have been more WellZyn having to do with the murders of the Waynes rather than Wayne Enterprises? Or maybe I just don't understand the term subsidiary enough and they are one in the same?

Okay, but your original question was "Why does everyone assume that it's Wayne Enterprises that could be the one that has something to do with the murder of the Waynes rather than WellZyn".

 

I don't know if that's true (that it's being assumed).  What I DO think the show is trying to show though is that the board of Wayne Enterprises are sneaky sneaks of some type, and Bruce's immediate storyline is going to be to get to the bottom of that. I mean I suppose it makes sense that a mere Butler like Alfred may not know all of the details of the board. That said, they need to explain this quick.  Board of Director memberships are public in most cases, but if not it's just weird there'd be no way Bruce didn't have access to their contact details.  Sure he's a minor, but he's got a lawyer (even if we've never been given the privilege of meeting this person).

 

The WellZyn stuff is a bit haphazard so far.  If it's just owned by Wayne and operates independently, that's fine, but we WERE teased with a character claiming to be there as a middle management rep of Wayne.  So clearly the writers DO want us to draw a connection (along with the question of why the Board members are acting like Vampires, not able to come out in the daylight to an important charity event).

 

I suppose perhaps we are being led to some potentially messy idea, like Falcone and his cronies being on the board.

 

What we need to know first, I suppose, is if Wayne Enterprises is a publicly traded company or not.  Is the board constructed of people who were given shares long past from private holdings, or are they simply whoever bought enough stock from public trading--and if so, how much does the Wayne family retain. In fact... who has the proxy now? One might assume Alfred, but the legal guardian for raising the kid isn't necessarily the same as the person who gets the voting proxy rights for shares in a company.

Edited October 25, 2014 by Kromm

[Camera One]

The WellZyn stuff is a bit haphazard so far.  If it's just owned by Wayne and operates independently, that's fine, but we WERE teased with a character claiming to be there as a middle management rep of Wayne.  So clearly the writers DO want us to draw a connection (along with the question of why the Board members are acting like Vampires, not able to come out in the daylight to an important charity event).

 

They have only introduced this complication, and I assume this will be an ongoing mystery.  Even if WellZyn is a subsidiary and is mostly operated independently, the parent company can have some say.  For example, the drug-maker-crazy-person did go straight to the owners of the parent comapny (the Waynes) to stop the production of Viper.  Evil executives at Wayne Enterprises could be buying up companies as subsidiaries and then converting them into dirty operations since the Waynes wouldn't likely have time to look into every subsidiary company.  Just like Falcone and the mobsters have city councillors in their pockets, it's not surprising that they would also have board members and employees at Wayne Enterprises in their pockets as well.  

 

Good question about whether Bruce Enterprises is a publicly traded company or not.

Edited October 25, 2014 by Camera One

[Kromm]

Well as much as I know a lot of folks were down on the whole aspect of Bruce being involved in the prequel as much as he is... there's an aspect that makes a ton of sense.  And that is that if they haven't cast a single in-charge ethical person like Lucius Fox already in power making sure the company continues... there's a natural story there about either a power vacuum, or as we have gotten, someone else in power who we don't know that much about.  

 

The weakness here is that Bruce and Alfred wouldn't already know.  For all the "he's only 12" stuff I've seen about how Bruce is already so smart and on the ball, that's one aspect where him being 12 is no excuse.  He's got a lawyer.  The lawyer may or may not be trustworthy--who knows.  But then he's also got Alfred as a legal guardian at the least (although that doesn't mean Alfred has control over the finances--just the physical custody of Bruce).  So if we're actually going in a direction of having to figure out what's what at Wayne Enterprises, then this all comes into it.  We need to meet the legal representation pronto (and it's just my gut feeling we're not going to get to--which displeases me).  

[Camera One]

Too bad they couldn't have made Barbara a lawyer, and she could have helped Bruce with this aspect of the investigation.  That would give her something substantial and beneficial to work on.  We need someone investigating Mathis, and Bruce wouldn't really be in a position to get very far in infiltrating the company.

[RealityGal]

Yes I know that WellZyn is a subsidiary of Wayne Enterprises but again couldn't it have been more WellZyn having to do with the murders of the Waynes rather than Wayne Enterprises? Or maybe I just don't understand the term subsidiary enough and they are one in the same?

A subsidiary would be a separate corporation with its own Board of Directors, its own managing officers, but owned by the parent corporation.  As its own corporation it would have its own assets and liabilities, and would be liable for its own actions.  Often a parent company will appoint the board of directors for the subsidiary company, and that board of directors will run the subsidiary business.  Its a great way for the parent company to escape liability, if WellZyn was just a division of Wayne, Wayne would be responsible for its liabilities.  As a subsidiary corporation, or LLC anything WellZyn, or any other subsidiary of Wayne did would likely not be a liability for Wayne enterprises.  

 

I don't think it would be smart to run a giant business any other way, because with a subsidiary, the parent often gets the control through appointing the board of directors, but eschews liability.

[RealityGal]

They have only introduced this complication, and I assume this will be an ongoing mystery.  Even if WellZyn is a subsidiary and is mostly operated independently, the parent company can have some say.  For example, the drug-maker-crazy-person did go straight to the owners of the parent comapny (the Waynes) to stop the production of Viper.  Evil executives at Wayne Enterprises could be buying up companies as subsidiaries and then converting them into dirty operations since the Waynes wouldn't likely have time to look into every subsidiary company.  Just like Falcone and the mobsters have city councillors in their pockets, it's not surprising that they would also have board members and employees at Wayne Enterprises in their pockets as well.  

 

Good question about whether Bruce Enterprises is a publicly traded company or not.

 

Because a subsidiary is an entirely separate company, if the parent directs too many actions, they can become liable for the subsidiaries actions/or lack thereof through piercing of the corporate veil.  Following corporate formalities is important to not piercing the corporate veil, so even if someone went directly to the Wayne, they may be able to take action as controlling shareholders in the subsidiary corporation, but the board of directors for WellZyn has the responsibility of running the day to day operations of the company.  Ostensibly, they have a duty to do what is best for WellZyn, not what is best for Wayne Enterprises (fiduciary duty) so if producing and working on Viper, and Viper like products is what makes sense for WellZyn's bottom line then....as the subsidiary, thats what they should be doing.  And thats actually where whether or not its a publicly traded company will have an impact.  If its owned by a few shareholders, than the fiduciary duty for the Board to do whats best for the company can be seen in the light of what those few shareholders (the Wayne's) think is best (which would be to just stop all production of everything), but if the company is public, and the subsidiary is subject to being owned by other shareholders that are only interested in the bottom line, for them, it may not make sense to stop production of things like Viper.  Just pay off the few drug addicts that died, and move on.

Well as much as I know a lot of folks were down on the whole aspect of Bruce being involved in the prequel as much as he is... there's an aspect that makes a ton of sense.  And that is that if they haven't cast a single in-charge ethical person like Lucius Fox already in power making sure the company continues... there's a natural story there about either a power vacuum, or as we have gotten, someone else in power who we don't know that much about.  

 

The weakness here is that Bruce and Alfred wouldn't already know.  For all the "he's only 12" stuff I've seen about how Bruce is already so smart and on the ball, that's one aspect where him being 12 is no excuse.  He's got a lawyer.  The lawyer may or may not be trustworthy--who knows.  But then he's also got Alfred as a legal guardian at the least (although that doesn't mean Alfred has control over the finances--just the physical custody of Bruce).  So if we're actually going in a direction of having to figure out what's what at Wayne Enterprises, then this all comes into it.  We need to meet the legal representation pronto (and it's just my gut feeling we're not going to get to--which displeases me).  

Maybe its an early Two-Face?  I also wonder how the actions of Well-Zyn may play with the Joker.  Again, I only watched the movies, but I remember in the first Batman, Joker was using some chemical to kill people, he put it in regular household products, and it would make people die with a creepy smile.  Sounds very WellZyn-esque

[RealityGal]

 

What we need to know first, I suppose, is if Wayne Enterprises is a publicly traded company or not.  Is the board constructed of people who were given shares long past from private holdings, or are they simply whoever bought enough stock from public trading--and if so, how much does the Wayne family retain. In fact... who has the proxy now? One might assume Alfred, but the legal guardian for raising the kid isn't necessarily the same as the person who gets the voting proxy rights for shares in a company.

 

Even if Wayne is publicly held, they may not issue voting stock to the public.  I believe Facebook has a very similar makeup.  The founder (Zuckerberg) holds most of the voting shares.  I would assume Alfred would vote Bruce's shares, I'm not sure how it would work any other way. 

[Kromm]

Maybe its an early Two-Face?  I also wonder how the actions of Well-Zyn may play with the Joker.  Again, I only watched the movies, but I remember in the first Batman, Joker was using some chemical to kill people, he put it in regular household products, and it would make people die with a creepy smile.  Sounds very WellZyn-esque

No, it's open casting news (in other words not a spoiler) that Harvey Dent has been cast, but that's he's playing an up and coming young DA.  So he can't also be Bruce Wayne's legal representation.

[Kromm]

I would assume Alfred would vote Bruce's shares, I'm not sure how it would work any other way. 

I'm not sure that's assumable, although I agree it's usually the default. Proxy power, power of attorney and custody aren't necessarily all the same thing.

It makes sense Alfred has everything, but if so then it's odd we've seen this setup where he doesn't already have the answers to what the power structure at Wayne Enterprises is, that's mostly what I'm saying.

[Camera One]

Yeah, from this episode, it doesn't look like Alfred is that interested or involved in the going-ons with the company.  So maybe he's just letting the Board run the show?  And maybe that will change when he and Bruce uncovers more.

Edited October 25, 2014 by Camera One

[Actionmage]

Bruce wouldn't really be in a position to get very far in infiltrating the company.

 

No, not if he tried infiltrating. If Bruce can handle it (and the condescension, like from Mathis), he can go in and ask questions. Regardless of how truthful the answers he receives are, he can balance that against reports that have to be filed and whatever he can hack into. (I am betting that if Bruce can't hack, he will find someone who can teach him. If Alfred doesn't have some tricks up those oh-so-proper sleeves of his! *g*)

 

I also wonder how the actions of Well-Zyn may play with the Joker.

 

I would guess Wellzyn is going to be the bane (*snerk*) of Gotham for a while yet. I think it may affect Ivy before Joker though. Especially if the Widow Pepper is in or moves to the low-cost housing in the Arkham sector. 

[Camera One]

No, not if he tried infiltrating. If Bruce can handle it (and the condescension, like from Mathis), he can go in and ask questions. Regardless of how truthful the answers he receives are, he can balance that against reports that have to be filed and whatever he can hack into. (I am betting that if Bruce can't hack, he will find someone who can teach him. If Alfred doesn't have some tricks up those oh-so-proper sleeves of his! *g*)

 

Do they have computers on this show?  If not, it may be mostly paper-based files.  It could be fun to see Bruce walking around the corporate offices.  They would no doubt underestimate him and he could snoop around.

[MisterGlass]

He would probably tell Alfred to distract the office minder with dense questions while he snoops.  Could be entertaining.

[Kromm]

Do they have computers on this show?  If not, it may be mostly paper-based files.  It could be fun to see Bruce walking around the corporate offices.  They would no doubt underestimate him and he could snoop around.

I'm pretty sure we've seen computers. Maybe even smartphones.  

 

Side by side with 1930s stuff, of course.

[RealityGal]

I'm not sure that's assumable, although I agree it's usually the default. Proxy power, power of attorney and custody aren't necessarily all the same thing.

It makes sense Alfred has everything, but if so then it's odd we've seen this setup where he doesn't already have the answers to what the power structure at Wayne Enterprises is, that's mostly what I'm saying.

 

I actually don't think its that odd for Alfred not to know the particulars.  It sounds like Alfred knows that there is a BOD at Wayne Enterprise, but I wouldn't know if Bruce gets an automatic seat on the BOD.  While a large shareholder, like the Waynes would normally have a seat on the board, its not automatic, and the board may have appointed someone in the interim.  The shareholders would vote for the replacement board member, and unless they want to vote for Alfred or a 12 year old, it seems unlikely Bruce would have a position on the BOD.  

 

As a controlling shareholder, or someone who holds a large amount of stock, or has to vote a large amount of stock, you will vote on very few things.  And most of them are going to be very broad, since the officers are the ones who truly run the day to day operation.  You'll vote on board appointments, issuance of new stock, mergers, and things along those lines.  In the event of a shareholder vote, there is generally a requirement that voting materials clearly explain the issues to be voted on.  Especially with a big company, because most companies of that size are publicly traded, the SEC mandates that the materials have to be plain, clear and easy to understand.  Anything other than that can be seen as fraud, or acting in bad faith. They basically want that guy who threw darts at a newspaper to pick his stocks to be able to understand what is being voted on.  So, if that's the case, any voting materials should be easy enough to understand.  

 

But even with a privately traded company with the behemouth size of Wayne Enterprises is going to be of interest to the financial media, because a company of that size has the power to have an impact on the entire economy.  For that reason, anytime something big enough for a shareholder vote comes up, it would have been written about extensively, in easy to read language for the everyday viewer.

 

 If the Wayne's didn't know they were in danger, they probably didn't make it a big point to school Alfred on all of these things, and no one really knows when that will was drawn up, was it when the Wayne's first had the company, and it was one big company, where it would have been a much easier corporate structure to understand?  Did they draw up that will when they everything was going swimmingly, and they had no idea trouble was brewing?

[RealityGal]

Yeah, from this episode, it doesn't look like Alfred is that interested or involved in the going-ons with the company.  So maybe he's just letting the Board run the show?  And maybe that will change when he and Bruce uncovers more.

I think this is probably the most likely thing.  I think Alfred is more concerned with Bruce's well being and that's his priority.  The boards job is to run the show, and so, even at some point if Bruce gets on the board (and this will not be at 12), I think it could shape him turning into Batman, because he will eventually realize, that even with a seat on the Board he is only one member of the board, and the board decisions are majority decisions and if the rest of the board is slimy.  And then he will figure out that even with a seat on the board of Wayne Enterprises, he doesn't have a seat on the board of the other subsidiary companies, so one board seat is even less impactful.

[Camera One]

I just hope they give a good reason why Bruce's dad was so oblivious, even placing his trust in Mathis.  Unless he also was a very hands-off type of guy, and left the business to people he trusted, who he really shouldn't have trusted in the first place.  It will be tricky to do that without making Mr. Wayne stupid or corrupt.

[Kromm]

Yeah, but there's a difference between Alfred not being that interested or able to do anything corporate and the complete absence of information he and Bruce seem to have. I mean they don't even seem to have names (or if they do, no contact details or even very broad information). You don't need pre-existing care about the subject to do that. All you need in this case is a company directory, or a lawyer. Or if Wayne IS a public company, a look on their website (I think we did determine computers and the Internet exists in this version of Gotham, even if we see Bruce pawing through papers).

Edited October 26, 2014 by Kromm

[Actionmage]

I can't see two loving parents, who seemingly had no idea they were in danger (which I assume because they were walking around in dark, deserted alleys at night with their young son)

 

It was stated in the pilot that the Waynes were taking a shortcut to some other street/place from the movie theater when Pepper/Not!Pepper killed Thomas and Martha Wayne.

 

Even if the Waynes weren't thinking they were in danger, a shortcut shouldn't automatically equal Death, even in Gotham. The Waynes may have been naïve and/or arrogant in their position, but it wasn't presented as a normally bad choice, under normal circumstances, even in Gotham. That's why their deaths were shocking to the public. 

[RealityGal]

Yeah, but there's a difference between Alfred not being that interested or able to do anything corporate and the complete absence of information he and Bruce seem to have. I mean they don't even seem to have names (or if they do, no contact details or even very broad information). You don't need pre-existing care about the subject to do that. All you need in this case is a company directory, or a lawyer. Or if Wayne IS a public company, a look on their website (I think we did determine computers and the Internet exists in this version of Gotham, even if we see Bruce pawing through papers).

 

I've gotten the impression that Alfred has access to the information about who the board members are.   They have spoken about the board in very broad terms, as if they know who they are, they just aren't sure who did what...if anything. They both seemed to think the BOD would be at the fundraiser, which is a reasonable assumption.  Contact details would be a little rough, a lot of times members of the BOD may have multiple jobs, or even multiple directorships, so knowing how to pin a director down might be hard.  An officer would be easier since they would have a job at Wayne Enterprises.  But a BOD may actually be a CEO of another company, or may have their own law firm, or work in another law firm.  And that other job may be one that makes them near impossible to contact.  For example, maybe I sit on the BOD for Hewlett Packard, but I'm CEO of Intel, and on top of that, I also sit on the BOD for a few non-profit organizations, how in the world can you ever hope to pin me down, I probably don't answer my own cell phone, and I can be in any office around the world.  And even if you had a lawyer contact me with a question, that would be rough, because I would probably tell you that for the day to day operations of the business you need to talk to the officer in charge of the department.  Although, you could certainly ask a board member questions like why they advocated for issuing more stock, and why they might have advocated giving it to a certain entity, but at this point I think the entire thing should be such a gordian knot, that it would require multiple conversations with multiple directors.  Or at least it should...

 

It was stated in the pilot that the Waynes were taking a shortcut to some other street/place from the movie theater when Pepper/Not!Pepper killed Thomas and Martha Wayne.

 

Even if the Waynes weren't thinking they were in danger, a shortcut shouldn't automatically equal Death, even in Gotham. The Waynes may have been naïve and/or arrogant in their position, but it wasn't presented as a normally bad choice, under normal circumstances, even in Gotham. That's why their deaths were shocking to the public. 

I'm not as smart as the Wayne, but even I would think a shortcut through a dark alley wouldn't be a good idea if dangerous people were out to get me.  Hell, a shortcut through a dark alley at night is probably going to appeal to me even if I'm just wearing nice jewelry, or even if I'm carrying a purse.  Even at the time Gotham sounds like the sort of place that had a seedy element to it, so I might have just gone the long way around.

I just hope they give a good reason why Bruce's dad was so oblivious, even placing his trust in Mathis.  Unless he also was a very hands-off type of guy, and left the business to people he trusted, who he really shouldn't have trusted in the first place.  It will be tricky to do that without making Mr. Wayne stupid or corrupt.

I get the idea that there was a very faint patina of corruption around the Wayne's.  Maybe they weren't personally involved in anything corrupt, but they knew that they would have to put up with a certain level of dirt so that they could get the result they wanted.  The ends justify the means sort of thing.  Perhaps at some point they let a little molehill of dirt or corruption into their company and without even them even knowing it it turned into a mountain of corruption.  I just get the impression the Wayne's weren't quite the saints that Bruce thinks they are, and if thats the case it will be interesting to see how that impacts Bruce.

[MarkHB]

I'm not as smart as the Wayne, but even I would think a shortcut through a dark alley wouldn't be a good idea if dangerous people were out to get me.  Hell, a shortcut through a dark alley at night is probably going to appeal to me even if I'm just wearing nice jewelry, or even if I'm carrying a purse.  Even at the time Gotham sounds like the sort of place that had a seedy element to it, so I might have just gone the long way around.

I wonder if they felt they were under Falcone's protection, since there was apparently some sort of relationship between them.  Which, of course, goes back to your point about what the Waynes were aware of.