S03.E02: Sara

[apinknightmare]

I guess for me it's not so much that she's taking charge of her life. I applaud her for doing that, but why does it have to be with a (IMO) problematic character like Ray? Obviously they're doing it for contrived plot purposes because he's in control of QC, but the writers did consciously write his as a stalker whom she chooses to align herself with as she takes ownership of her career/life path. They even gave Felicity multiple lines pointing him out as a stalker. Now they expect me to buy that the first person she turns to after decides not to work in the Arrow cave is her stalker. Another "WTF?" moment for me, but clearly I'm in the minority, so...

Oh, he's totally a stalker. I know many people might not feel the same as I do, but it's slightly better for me in that he's not pursuing her romantically, he's aggressively recruiting her. Yeah, he's doing it in an over-the-top, Hollywood way, but I've seen some companies do some crazy things to court a potential employee. He wants her skill set. He'll do what it takes to get it and he's not used to people telling him no.

Would he be as dogged if Felicity was a man? I think so. And I also think my perception of him and what he's doing is colored by the fact that I know he's a potential love interest for her. It means something to me that he quit with the shit when he saw she was upset, and realized she was actually serious about not wanting to work for him to the point she quit her job. I think it was a game to him until that point, when he realized he was the only one playing it.

Edited October 16, 2014 by apinknightmare

[Chaser]

I understand why some people view Ray as a stalker. But I see it more as a business man pursuing an asset. A billioniare business man pursuing an asset. The way he is doing it is certainly over the top, with the flowers and such (though my company sends out gifts to clients and potential clients all the time, so it is fairly come practice in the business world). As for the GPS-tracking, it certainly crosses a line but I see it as him trying to appeal to the hacker side of her (which was on full display on the Tech More). He was probably trying to imply they were bird of a feather.

 

I guess I just see him as actively trying to recruit her not date her.

[calliope1975]

The Ray stuff didn't bother me as much in action as it would on paper. I agree that this is all business for him, and while his behavior is stalker-y, it also seems to be more about him acquiring a valuable asset in a business-like ruthless manner. However, should he pursue Felicity romantically like this, if she doesn't express any interest, then yes, he's going to need to be shut down. I am not here for any encouragement that that type of behavior is okay or should in any way be rewarded. (I feel like I'm contradicting myself with business versus personal, and I am struggling with that. Just know I recognize my hypocrisy.)

[Ceylon5]

The plot-line of Ray buying the Tech Villages was yet again proof that these writers know nothing whatsoever about matters of corporate business or finance.  There's no way a $1.2 billion deal would go through in one day.  Do these people even give any thought at all to their timelines?  It's so annoying.

[Password]

It really bothered me, perhaps even more because after the "I bought your company talk" there was a really emotional scene with Felicity in the elevator and I just kept thinking Mr Smarms is apparently a great reader of people - to get them to do what he wants - and it's meant to be a lovely scene or even a beginning for them of friendship but it just smacks of him throwing his money around to get what he wants. Stop show. Rectify that ish quick. Talk about "most girls would be flattered." Exit stage left Ray.

[NumberCruncher]

The plot-line of Ray buying the Tech Villages was yet again proof that these writers know nothing whatsoever about matters of corporate business or finance.  There's no way a $1.2 billion deal would go through in one day.  Do these people even give any thought at all to their timelines?  It's so annoying.

 

Yes, and that too.  Speaking from personal experience as having gone through a lot of acquisitiions, they take several months of back-and-forth negotiation, but the insta-[insert random business/legal/addiction plot point] is typical for this show.

[JenMD]

She doesn't even get a proper burial (YAY! Laurel actually makes a good point).

 

I can't give Laurel props for this since, as others have mentioned, she's the one who made the decision to remove her sister's body from the scene of the crime in the first place.  I'm quite sure none of the others gathered preferred saying goodbye to their friend in the dark of night, in secrecy.  That Laurel said Sara deserved a real funeral at that point just made me roll my eyes.

 

There's no way a $1.2 billion deal would go through in one day.  Do these people even give any thought at all to their timelines?  It's so annoying.

No, they don't and they've admitted it (I wish I could remember the particulars, something about writing each ep without thinking about how things fit together?).  It explained a lot at the time and continues to, although it doesn't make it any less frustrating when you've got eps that just make you scratch your head with the inconsistencies and leaps of logic.

[fantique]

On a shallow note, it drove me crazy that everyone kept pronouncing LaCroix as "la croy."

Oh my god yes!!!! Thank you. I thought I was alone in this. I was like really?... I am pretty tolerant when it comes to shoddy french on TV but god I was cringing everytime they said that... I am quite used to people using french terribly wrong but I have heard americans say Lacroix semi-normally before. Ah...You might think I am overreacting but I literally wanted to mute when they said his name. Painful *shudders*.

Edited October 16, 2014 by fantique

[Ariah]

Upon rewatch I've noticed the difference in behaviour of Laurel and Felicity watching Oliver fall of his bike during the fight.

 

Laurel urges him to get up through her teeth, furious because he fell and hence - failed (her).

 

Felicity asks if he's ok.

 

If the writers want Laurel/Oliver relationship to be romantic... They took a wrong turn somewhere in the Glades.

[Guest]

I just realized something…if Oliver actually lives/sleeps in the foundry why was he only just discovering Sara's body in the morning? Because Sara was killed at night so a) where did Laurel go with the body for all those hours and/or b) where did Oliver go if he wasn't there all night? 

 

The continuity is killing me the last couple of episodes.

[Actionmage]

I am so upset that one of the other most affected characters wasn't even present in the whole of the damn episode--Sin. The young woman Sara swore to care for/look after. The one who looked to Sara as an older sister/mom surrogate. The young woman with a very close friendship with Roy and the absent Thea. Where was this woman?!

 

On the sidelines because she wasn't given the surname Lance.

 

Sin has even more of an emotional claim, imo, that Laurel (and my greatest beefs about Laurel has primarily been writer-driven) to Sara. Sin knew about Sara being the Canary, if not her straight-up assassin background. Sara may not have raised her from a young age, but she was part of Sara's chosen family. Sin was an extra set of eyes and ears for Sara in Starling. They obviously were affectionate with each other and Sin was obviously worried about Sara leaving late last season.  Whatever the gang was feeling this episode, Sin will be feeling it, likely alone. Unless we are allowed to see Roy break the news to Sin. 

 

With Sin's ties to Roy and Thea, and through them Team Arrow, her absence makes me angrier. Roy didn't say much, so why couldn't Sin have grieved like Ollie? Trying for stoic and not quite getting there. 

[Guest]

I am so upset that one of the other most affected characters wasn't even present in the whole of the damn episode--Sin. The young woman Sara swore to care for/look after. The one who looked to Sara as an older sister/mom surrogate. The young woman with a very close friendship with Roy and the absent Thea. Where was this woman?!

 

On the sidelines because she wasn't given the surname Lance.

 

Sin has even more of an emotional claim, imo, that Laurel (and my greatest beefs about Laurel has primarily been writer-driven) to Sara. Sin knew about Sara being the Canary, if not her straight-up assassin background. Sara may not have raised her from a young age, but she was part of Sara's chosen family. Sin was an extra set of eyes and ears for Sara in Starling. They obviously were affectionate with each other and Sin was obviously worried about Sara leaving late last season.  Whatever the gang was feeling this episode, Sin will be feeling it, likely alone. Unless we are allowed to see Roy break the news to Sin. 

 

With Sin's ties to Roy and Thea, and through them Team Arrow, her absence makes me angrier. Roy didn't say much, so why couldn't Sin have grieved like Ollie? Trying for stoic and not quite getting there. 

 

Because Sin being there would have made the episode about Sara. This episode was really about Laurel. Sounds harsh but it's true.

 

They really missed the potential for a great scene there with Sin. So sad.

[looptab]

I just realized something…if Oliver actually lives/sleeps in the foundry why was he only just discovering Sara's body in the morning? Because Sara was killed at night so a) where did Laurel go with the body for all those hours and/or b) where did Oliver go if he wasn't there all night? 

 

The continuity is killing me the last couple of episodes.

 He talked all night long with Barry. He had a lot to tell him lol. But you're right, there are a lot of things that are really not that important, but really bug me, like Laurel apparently keeps a change of clothes in the foundry ( see: the scene in Verdant about the  stuffed animal). Also, there's no fern in sight. Why is that?? lol

Edited October 16, 2014 by looptab

[Actionmage]

Because Sin being there would have made the episode about Sara. This episode was really about Laurel. Sounds harsh but it's true.

 

So, just be get things straight:

*This episode, according to TPTB, was a "love letter" to the character of Sara.

*This episode was titled "Sara".

*Two of the characters closest to Sara, Quentin and Sin, were not told of Sara's death.

*Sara was literally put in a refrigeration unit.

*Her parents were not present at her funeral because...Laurel reasons.

*But it was about Laurel's "start" on a road of heroism that included unnecessary torture, misuse of her and her father's office, attempted murder ( of La Croix [ la quaw]. Forever Knight fan, still; don't judge me!) and all sorts of writer-driven idiocy.

 

So TPTB are actually the TIIC, they lie as easily as they breathe, and have no respect for any of their fans. Okay. I guess that sounds harsh, but it's true..

(This is not directed at you, as such, Angel12d. It is more the general 'just deal, we can't change anything' shrug in the face of such obvious overhauling being done to the show lots of us have invested two seasons of watching and interacting with/about. As I stated in my first post for this episode. I'm taking this week by week, with the option of dropping out in the middle of an ep. Why? Because I was told this show was about Oliver and company, not Laurel becoming Black Canary.)

[Guest]

So, just be get things straight:

*This episode, according to TPTB, was a "love letter" to the character of Sara.

*This episode was titled "Sara".

*Two of the characters closest to Sara, Quentin and Sin, were not told of Sara's death.

*Sara was literally put in a refrigeration unit.

*Her parents were not present at her funeral because...Laurel reasons.

*But it was about Laurel's "start" on a road of heroism that included unnecessary torture, misuse of her and her father's office, attempted murder ( of La Croix [ la quaw]. Forever Knight fan, still; don't judge me!) and all sorts of writer-driven idiocy.

 

So TPTB are actually the TIIC, they lie as easily as they breathe, and have no respect for any of their fans. Okay. I guess that sounds harsh, but it's true..

(This is not directed at you, as such, Angel12d. It is more the general 'just deal, we can't change anything' shrug in the face of such obvious overhauling being done to the show lots of us have invested two seasons of watching and interacting with/about. As I stated in my first post for this episode. I'm taking this week by week, with the option of dropping out in the middle of an ep. Why? Because I was told this show was about Oliver and company, not Laurel becoming Black Canary.)

 

Yeah. That's exactly what I meant. It's what's so horrible about it. The episode was called Sara and should have been about Sara but it only happened to propel Laurel on her journey to BC. This was literally nothing about Sara. It was insulting. 

 

 He talked all night long with Barry. He had a lot to tell him lol. But you're right, there are a lot of things that are really not that important, but really bug me, like Laurel apparently keeps a change of clothes in the foundry ( see: the scene in Verdant about the  stuffed animal). Also, there's no fern in sight. Why is that?? lol

 

Lol seriously though. What happened? And how did she get her body in the foundry in the first place? It shouldn't matter but it bugs me. 

 

Oh, Oliver's darkness killed the love fern.

[SleepDeprived]

Haven't seen the episode yet. But I've read a lot of reactions about it and seen all the gif sets. Looks like I'm in for quite an episode, and not in an awesome way. At least, I'll be armed with wine and the FF button, if necessary.

 

I just had to comment about the Digglette (I just can't call her little Sara). She's a cutie! But that is not a newborn baby. She looked, at least, three to five months old. Heh.

[statsgirl]

This episode felt like a chess game to me -- the pieces were moved into position for the next season of the show, and we are left to fanwank the thinking and emotions behind them.  That said.....

ETA2: I also don't think the Oliver and Felicity talk about staying in the basement was about their romantic tangent, all had been said. I think it was about highlighting that certain things and predispositions surface when being faced with a death that makes you think of your own life. It was more about them prising different things and showing how differently they think. Felicity strikes me as the person being nice and positive because she chose to, because she feels her life is better with that outlook. Not because she was born a goody two shoes who puts no effort in being nice. I also find the styling choice interesting when she goes to get the job. Muted colours, no brightness and her hair down. It felt much more mature and assertive.

I think that's a good way of putting it. Unlike Oliver, Laurel and Sara, she (like Sin) had a lot of grief and pain when she was growing up.  Felicity chose to deal with it by being positive and striving for more, and so when Sara died and she was so upset, she needed to deal with it by finding something positive. It wasn't Oliver who was in self-blame mode, or Laurel who was out for vengeance, or Roy or Diggle who were just doing what they think needed to be done.  Positive was a new job and a boss so actively wanted her, he bought the company she was working for.   IIRC, the QC offices at the end were the only sunlight place for her in this whole episode. 

 

LOL at Oliver coming to realize he's not a character in a Greek tragedy, even if AK and MG think he is.

 

Really, the worst thing about Laurel being around...I hate to use the word "shoehorn" but Laurel comes in and everyone has to start acting OOC, because otherwise she couldn't be there. Oliver has always become an asshole in her presence, so at least he felt realistic. Yeah, a bigger problem for me than the fact that he ignored the woman he's supposed to love when she was grieving a friend is that he used her as a release valve for his frustration again. Not okay. Less okay than her reacting to him being a jackass to her, for which she apologized. Did he? Can't remember.

So, I'm going to go ahead and call Sara's killer as Tommy for one very simple reason: he was in this episode.

That's a good theory. Didn't Tommy go bad in the comics?  Maybe he ended up in the Lazarus Pit and went bad.

 

Every time there's a lot of Laurel interacting with the regular cast, they all go OCC.  (Time of Death, anyone?)  I guess it just points out how she doesn't fit into the A storyline of the show.

 

I've decided that Oliver's excuse for not grieving is as dumb as his excuse for not dating Felicity, which I wouldn't have thought possible.  He says he can't grieve because everyone needs him to lead, but since when do people need a leader in order to grieve?  I

When Oliver gets near Laurel, he becomes  his most prissy, self-egregious ass self. I attribute it to Laurel always propping him, saying either he's the bestest boyfriend ever (while he's cheating on her) or tearing him down when he's been off doing Arrow things.

 

After all that has happened to him over the past seven years, I can accept that Oliver can't grieve any more, that well is all dried up at the moment.  Saying he needed to be the leader so others could grieve?  An excuse, and an ass of one too.

 

 

On a shallow note, it drove me crazy that everyone kept pronouncing LaCroix as "la croy."

Yes. What makes it worse is that this show was shot in Canada.  Somebody should have stopped them, especially since it was established that yes, his mother lives in Quebec, not Louisiana.

I'm hoping the job turns to be more as well, but, Ray is hiring her for her IT skills. He was clear about that.

And I'm all for Felicity getting a life outside the Arrow Cave, but....she's going back to work for a company that a, was just taken over by a guy that pulled a dirty trick on her and pulled the company from her friend (granted, this means QC has a better chance of surviving, since Oliver Queen sucks as a CEO, but, still) and b, is the same company where she met Oliver and where she got pulled into his crusade. This isn't moving on.  If she'd headed out to Star Labs, sure, or even another job in Starling City, sure. This? To me, not so much.

But she's not giving up her job on Team Arrow, which is the 'more' she was talking about last season.  She's still staying on the vigilante job.

 

Or maybe she secretly meant more in terms of knowing Oliver even though at that point she thought he was in love with Laurel?

 

I assume that she took the job at Tech Town (?) ( I only think of it was Buy More) as a temporary measure because she wanted to be available for Oliver when he got back QC.  Well, he doesn't want QC any more, or at least not right now.  And he doesn't want a relationship with her, again not now.   What he wants her for is the Team Arrow equivalent of her old IT job at QC -- hack into data bases and phones and be yelled at when Oliver's life isn't going the way he wants it to.

 

Ray wanted her for her IT skills but he really appreciates them (hence the $1.2 billion buyout to get her working for him). It's doubtful he wants to put her back into the same old job she was in back in season 1.  Maybe she's intrigued to see why he wants her so much. Or maybe she just needs to get out of the dark lair and into the light of some hope.

 

She's not giving up the Arrow mission but she needs more in her life than just that and a shut-down Oliver right now.  It's her way to grief Sara's death.

 

 

Also, there's no fern in sight. Why is that?? lol

It was a Laurel/Oliver episode.  Symbolism.

 

waves to Actionmage, a fellow Forever Knight fan  

Edited October 16, 2014 by statsgirl

[NumberCruncher]

Oh, Oliver's darkness killed the love fern.

BWAH! It thrives on low light but not the complete absence of it? I now have a mental picture of Felicity ala Kate Hudson getting all exasperated with "Our love fern...you let it DIE!"

[wonderwall]

@wonderwall: Can we please send your entire post and points about how Laurel fails as a human being to the writers and EPs? Because they need to read it.

Lmao I actually don't remember which post you're talking about! :p Could you point it out for me? I have my issues with the way they're dealing with Laurel. I think I'll post on the Laurle thread. 

[poetgirl925]

I was not excited going into this episode, really, but I still expected to watch the whole thing. Instead I turned it off when Laurel went and stood in front of the window that AN ARROW HAD JUST COME THROUGH, looking all "Hey, what's going on?" I just couldn't anymore. Our next Black Canary, ladies and gentlemen.

Was it any good after that? If something awesome happened after this, I'll try again tomorrow or the next day. But what I watched wasn't entertaining me at all. Oliver's manpaining is also a Cycle of Suck for me, no matter who he's manpaining over.

[KirkB]

*But it was about Laurel's "start" on a road of heroism that included unnecessary torture, misuse of her and her father's office, attempted murder ( of La Croix [ la quaw]. Forever Knight fan, still; don't judge me!) and all sorts of writer-driven idiocy.

 

Hey, Forever Knight is probably my all time favorite vampire show, even if I have several things I disliked about the last season and the finale in particular.

 

The producers and determined to make Laurel a likeable, heroic character. Which is weird, because they have had the chance from the beginning to put her on the path and yet are waiting until now to really set her on the journey.

 

See, I don't think Ray is MEANT to be smarmy or stalkery. It's supposed to be dashing and clever. He studied Felicity's background, determined how useful she would be to his company and is willing to do whatever it takes to get her services. Hell, they probably think it's pseudo-romantic. And Routh is doing the best he can with what he's being given. But I have a feeling it's going to turn out to be something similar as what happened with Manu and Caity. He's not getting enough of the direction he needs to tell the story they want him to so he's having to make some of it up as it goes along, only to blindside him with his real motivation. Which pretty much invalidates much of what he'd done up to that point.

 

Maybe Malcolm will have Thea tell Quentin about Sara when they get back to town, just to see what happens. Because even thought I doubt he had anything to do with it, odds are he'll know (or be able to figure out) who did.

Edited October 16, 2014 by KirkB

[TobinAlbers]

 

That's a good theory. Didn't Tommy go bad in the comics?  Maybe he ended up in the Lazarus Pit and went bad.

I'm hoping the writers won't be that predictable but, yeah, it fits that it could be Tommy since he was in the episode in the flashback sequence and this episode is about Sara's death. ArrowTommy aligning into his comic counterpart and assuming the mantle of the Dark Archer for the final season as Oliver has to take down his onetime BFF seems in line with this show.

 

Whoever it was that killed her,  Sara was shocked to see them but not wary and in any kind of defensive stance. Whoever killed her it was someone she knew but wasn't afraid of or leery of and a Tommy she thinks is the same guy she passingly knew before the Gambit went down aligns with that.  When she retuned to the LoA is when she learned of his resurrection but he was still touch and go (could totally have gotten Jason Todd's Lazarus Pit resurrection storyline so that he's a bit batty) and it was only recently that he pulled through and she thought she should come back to town to let Oliver know. DarkTommy didn't want his presence to be known and he killed her to keep her quiet until he's come full into his training. In his Lazarus Pit corrupted brain his loyalties are now to the LoA who  brought him back and gave him a second chance. Bonus points if in the course of his training/recouperation he starts a romance with Talia which makes his ties to the LoA stronger.

 

The reason Ra's allowed the resurrection to happen? So that they could train Tommy to deal out the punishment to Malcolm that Moira threatened him with back in S2. I can see Ra's thinking it a nice kind of irony that he uses Malcolm's own son to take him out or even better, Malcolm becomes a monster and kills his own son to save himself instead of conceding defeat. Malcolm thought Tommy was weak, but he was still his son and killing him would be a big line to cross. The additional irony is that one of Tommy's final thoughts was asking Oliver if he killed his dad and thanking him that he didn't. For him to come to such a dark place that he'd kill his own father would also be a big tragedy in Tommy ultimately being warped by all the darkness around him. Either way it's a win for Ra's.

 

Also since Malcolm was presumed dead, there was no family to claim Tommy's body. Sure, Laurel identified it but in all the chaos of the aftermath of the destruction, Ra's easily could've taken advantage of the situation to swap the bodies with a random corpse in Tommy's grave and Tommy safely in his possession to brainwash and manipulate with no one looking for him.

 

But I hope they don't take Tommy down that path. He has one of the purest hearts of anyone on the show and to have it corrupted by Malcolm and Ra's just isn't right. Let the man RIP.

[slayer2]

Oh my god yes!!!! Thank you. I thought I was alone in this. I was like really?... I am pretty tolerant when it comes to shoddy french on TV but god I was cringing everytime they said that... I am quite used to people using french terribly wrong but I have heard americans say Lacroix semi-normally before. Ah...You might think I am overreacting but I literally wanted to mute when they said his name. Painful *shudders*.

I was especially upset with Amell because he's Canadian!! He should know better, surely!

[JodhaBai]

I think the writers are missing the emotional beats in Oliver and Felicity's relationship.    They are moving too fast and I'm not feeling it.  

Edited October 16, 2014 by JodhaBai

[slayer2]

I think the writers are missing the emotional beats in Oliver and Felicity's relationship. They are moving to fast and I'm not feeling it.

The show's moving at warp speed lately, I think it needs Valium or I do. Or both of us. Honestly I would be happy to get rid of everyone but Ollie, Sara and the Merlyns frankly, bring back Huntress and go for Birds of Prey. We could bring Barbara over from Gotham, I quite like her.

Edited October 16, 2014 by slayer2

[quarks]

Poetgirl925 - in my opinion, there were two really good scenes after that bit - the conclusion to the Hong Kong flashback, which I liked, and a Thea/Malcolm moment.

 

Also the usual people swinging through the QC office windows sending rubber glass flying everywhere. I know this show likes to reuse sets over and over for budget purposes, to the point where this is one of the reasons Felicity is working for Ray, so they have an excuse to keep using it, but I can't help thinking that by this point, everybody has to be thinking, you know, maybe we should fly through another window! Just for variety.

 

Unfortunately the bit right after the flying through the windows was one of my least favorite parts of the episode. 

[Danny Franks]

I was not excited going into this episode, really, but I still expected to watch the whole thing. Instead I turned it off when Laurel went and stood in front of the window that AN ARROW HAD JUST COME THROUGH, looking all "Hey, what's going on?" I just couldn't anymore. Our next Black Canary, ladies and gentlemen.

 

 

Was it as bad as that time a guy invaded her apartment with a gun, and she grabbed a shotgun, blasted at him and then paused to toss off a 'badass' one liner? Only, she never checked if there was more than one shell in the shotgun (despite it being her gun, and so she should know), and pumped it, pulled the trigger and... *click*.

 

Laurel Lance: Too dumb to use a gun properly, too dumb to use a quip properly, and likes to stand in full view of would-be assassins. She's not the hero we deserve, or the one we need. But she's the one we're getting.

[dtissagirl]

If Arrow goes past 5 seasons and then they realize the show can go on forever and ever like SPN and Smallville, I bet around season 9 we get an entire episode from the POV of the dude who replaces the broken windows at QC. Every week.

[Actionmage]

Oh, Oliver's darkness killed the love fern.

 

Naw,Laurel knocked it over with Sara.  (Yes, harsh. But? Potentially correct, with lone Laurel trying to get Sara on the table. Still, technically Sara, not Laurel.)

[DrSpaceman10]

Did you guy see SA's stunt double (I think his name is Simon Burnett)? He was playing a drug dealer or something who was shot by Komodo.

Edited October 16, 2014 by drspaceman10

[slayer2]

I thought SA didn't have a stunt double.

[KenyaJ]

Nope, he does. He jokes all the time about how much he hates him.

[writersblock51]

The stunt doubles are there, per SA, for insurance reasons, haha.  He admitted that he's always trying to do Simon out of a job but the network says No.

[benteen]

Earlier someone asked why they didn't reveal Sara's identity to the public so she could be honored as a hero.  In fairness to Quentin and yes, Laurel, revealing that Sara was a vigilante might have spelled the end of their careers.  Especially after they held a big event dismantling the Vigilante Task Force.  Then again, logic has never been a big thing on this show for storylines like this...

 

-We have Laurel part of the team prosecuting Moira, despite a number of major conflicts of interest

 

-We had Moira nearly become Mayor of Starling City barely a year after being involved in a major terrorist undertaking and then standing trial for it.

 

-We had the CEO of Queen Consolidated Isabel deliberately devalue the stock of her own company and nobody from the Board of Directors to the stockholders to the SEC had a problem with this.  Hell, she seemed to go up in the estimation of the Board and the stockholders.

 

-We had the Starling City PD deliberately conceal from the public that two notorious criminals, a serial killer who targets young women and a murderous drug lord, escaped from prison.

 

So yeah, logic isn't big on this show to say the very least.

 

As for Laurel not telling her father, I get how brutal that has to be and maybe telling Quentin while he was taking his medication wasn't the best of times.  I agree with that.  But Quentin deserves to know and deserves to be able to bury his daughter, despite the can of worms that would have opened if he had seen Oliver, Diggle, and Roy.

 

Which reminds me...is Sin still part of this show?  She was close to Canary though obviously not in the inner circle.  I hope she's still around.

[AES13]

I have to admit that I laughed out loud twice during the episode: once with Laurel going to the window to pose right in the spot an arrow just came through, and the other was her firing the gun with no bullets.  It's somewhat of an improvement over my usual impatience or eye-rolling over Laurel's scenes, I guess, but honestly I just feel sorry that the writers manage to ruin any gravitas they were building.  They get so many things right but they keep shooting themselves in the foot.

 

I don't understand why Laurel would not call an ambulance or the police.  What she did, picking her sister's body up, carting her to the lair, and then standing there looking at her for hours maybe, is not what a human being would do.  I can suspend my disbelief for a lot of things (motorcycle jousting, billionaires going bankrupt after the loss of 1 company, the police not monitoring the Arrow's radio communications and arresting everyone involved), but when the characters become plot drivers instead of humans, I lose interest quickly.  There wasn't an explanation given either why she would do it.  Sara's existence was no longer a secret so it really made no sense whatsoever.   

 

I didn’t like Diggle suggesting they would name Digglette after Sara; it really wasn’t earned enough to be touching.  I also didn’t like Sin not being there or there not being a throwaway line from Roy that since she’s out of town, he’ll have to break the news to her later.

 

IMO, Stephen Amell is getting better and better at the nuances: showing his attempt to be emotionless and all the emotions he’s trying to hide at the same time.  The only thing I didn’t buy from him was his embrace of Laurel at the grave site.  It looked like he was trying give the impression of hugging her with actually holding or grasping on to her.  It felt very affected.

 

I enjoyed Felicity’s snapping back at him but I don’t think she was trying to shock him into awareness.  After being criticized for not bringing her “A” game, she reacted resentfully and impulsively, the way you do when emotions are running high.  To her credit, she did apologize immediately afterwards and though Oliver was hurt, I think he knew that he started it first.

 

Looking forward to seeing Thea and Oliver’s reunion, and Oliver’s discovery that Malcolm isn’t dead.  I wonder if we’ll finally get some kind of explanation; I mean Oliver will want one, won’t he?

[slayer2]

I can understand why Laurel didn't tell her Dad. Who wants to be the lynchpin on the grenade that will rip apart your family, I'd want to spare my family for as long as possible too and if my Dad had a heart condition and my sis was known to take off for long stretches, yeah probably wouldn't tell him until I had to. Is it dishonest? Sure but I love my Dad I don't want him to die, or fall of the wagob or whatever and seeing as how Det Lance did the same for her and Ollie does that for everyone (which I think he learned from Moira or watching a lot of Angel) it's par for the course on this show. He looked so happy and well-adjusted in his office. How could I blow his life apart and put him in physical danger like that (health-wise). I couldn't do it. I wouldn't.

[apinknightmare]

I can understand why Laurel didn't tell her Dad. Who wants to be the lynchpin on the grenade that will rip apart your family, I'd want to spare my family for as long as possible too and if my Dad had a heart condition and my sis was known to take off for long stretches, yeah probably wouldn't tell him until I had to. Is it dishonest? Sure but I love my Dad I don't want him to die, or fall of the wagob or whatever and seeing as how Det Lance did the same for her and Ollie does that for everyone (which I think he learned from Moira or watching a lot of Angel) it's par for the course on this show. He looked so happy and well-adjusted in his office. How could I blow his life apart and put him in physical danger like that (health-wise). I couldn't do it. I wouldn't.

 

Yeah, but the problem is that she has to tell him eventually, and the longer she waits, the worse it's going to be for him. And now instead of just being devastated that his daughter is dead, he'll be devastated that the other one kept it from him, buried her without him, and took the grieving process out of his hands. His alcoholism and heart condition aren't going away - it's a contrived plot point to create drama at a later date, and I hate it.

Edited October 16, 2014 by apinknightmare

[fantique]

My biggest problem with that is how is it better hiding it for however long she will. His heart might be okay then but he is still an alcoholic. The difference will be added pain that his older daughter kept the death of his younger daughter from him. That is more sure to send him into a tailspin. The thing is I am not saying I don't understand Laurel's position. My problem is, like when telling her dad that if he's not a policeman he is still her dad (great to show she loves him but that's not exactly a fulfilling career substitute when she is his 30 yr old daughter), she is choosing to think of the way that is slightly more bearable for her, not by much but still... I want to see Laurel's love being a caring one not a selfish one. When love is selfish, it hurts almost more than no love at all because the recipient can't even object to the actions resulting from that love since they will feel guilty, thankless and try not to hurt the other's feelings. 

This frustrates me because (when it's their most prominent quality) I don't like selfish people, and hate selfish characters even more because I find it stupid that someone thinks I want to see their problems when I have a choice. Common writers, get a grip alright? 

ETA: wrote this before seeing @apinknightmare's answer so sorry if I am just parroting here.

Edited October 16, 2014 by fantique

[thuganomics85]

 

Which reminds me...is Sin still part of this show?  She was close to Canary though obviously not in the inner circle.  I hope she's still around.

Bex Taylor-Klaus got another gig (that Scream series), but I guess it's always possible they could bring her back for a cameo or two.  But, honestly?  It wouldn't surprise me if this show forgets all about her.  Outside of the regulars, this series has always been shit with recurring characters and their story-lines.  Randomly showing up, randomly dropping out, randomly reappearing, randomly just disappearing for good.  I can hope for a Sin return, but I'm not optimistic.

 

 

 

I can understand why Laurel didn't tell her Dad. Who wants to be the lynchpin on the grenade that will rip apart your family, I'd want to spare my family for as long as possible too and if my Dad had a heart condition and my sis was known to take off for long stretches, yeah probably wouldn't tell him until I had to. Is it dishonest? Sure but I love my Dad I don't want him to die, or fall of the wagob or whatever and seeing as how Det Lance did the same for her and Ollie does that for everyone (which I think he learned from Moira or watching a lot of Angel) it's par for the course on this show. He looked so happy and well-adjusted in his office. How could I blow his life apart and put him in physical danger like that (health-wise). I couldn't do it. I wouldn't.

Yeah, but the problem is that she has to tell him eventually, and the longer she waits, the worse it's going to be for him. And now instead of just being devastated that his daughter is dead, he'll be devastated that the other one kept it from him, buried her without him, and took the grieving process out of his hands. His alcoholism and heart condition aren't going away - it's a contrived plot point to create drama at a later date, and I hate it.

 

 

Yep, that's my issue.  And, honestly, I think the reason the first time Sara "died", hit Quentin (and Dinah for that matter) so hard, was because there wasn't a body to mourn, and get a full grieving process.  He/they deserved to get it this time, but Laurel took it out of their hands.  Do I get it on some level?  Sure, but Laurel should have been the bigger person.  Hell, if she didn't want to be the one to do it, I even would have been fine if she asked Ollie to Arrow up, and tell Quentin in disguise what happened.  But, she didn't.  And, I think it was awful of her.  

 

When (and I do believe it's only a matter of time) Quentin does find out, I wouldn't be surprised if he does flip out even worse then he normally would have, and Laurel better feel like shit for what she has done.  But, with this show, I almost wouldn't be surprised if the just had her be like "Yeah, Sara is dead, dad, but I'm taking over!  Aren't I a cooler Canary, dad?!!!"

[slayer2]

Yeah, but the problem is that she has to tell him eventually, and the longer she waits, the worse it's going to be for him. And now instead of just being devastated that his daughter is dead, he'll be devastated that the other one kept it from him, buried her without him, and took the grieving process out of his hands. His alcoholism and heart condition aren't going away - it's a contrived plot point to create drama at a later date, and I hate it.

But she's still in shock herself. I wouldn't be surprised if some part of her doesn't believe Sara is dead, it takes months to accept that (years for some people). I know she'll have to tell him eventually but now with no leads and seemingly no hope he has a gift right now in not knowing. I don't know, ignorance is bliss sometimes. I have lost way too many people over the past couple of years and if I could have prolonged finding out or spaced it out somehow I honestly would have been glad for it.

I agree that it's a plot device but so's everything at a certain point and honestly, killing Sara off first ep means that this is the only way they'll be able to use Detective Lance for future arcs (catching bad guys) since he certainly wouldn't be up to it if he knew his daughter was dead. He would be unceremoniously benched for the season and they'd have to find a new contact in the police force with formidable power. It also opens up future conflicts and story for Laurel, her dad and her mum (should she ever decide to show her face again). As a writing choice I think it's a pretty sound one.

Edited October 16, 2014 by slayer2

[apinknightmare]

But she's still in shock herself. I wouldn't be surprised if some part of her doesn't believe Sara is dead, it takes months to accept that (years for some people). I know she'll have to tell him eventually but now with no leads and seemingly no hope he has a gift right now in not knowing. I don't know, ignorance is bliss sometimes. I have lost way too many people over the past couple of years and if I could have prolonged finding out or spaced it out somehow I honestly would have been glad for it.

 

I feel like this is a different situation, since he basically grieved for her the first time while still holding out hope, since they didn't have a body. There is a body this time, there is no hope, and it is absolutely shitty that he's being kept in the dark about his daughter when he can properly grieve for her a second time. When someone (who isn't Laurel, I'll bet) finally tells him, do you think he's going to say, "Hey, thanks for keeping me in the dark and lying to me so I could have a few good weeks of ignorance!" And it's also shitty that no one mentioned, you know, calling her mother.

 

Also, is anyone else concerned about how shallow that grave was? The stench is going to be unbearable soon, unless Oliver or Diggle miraculously have mortuary sciences training.

Edited October 16, 2014 by apinknightmare

[slayer2]

I honestly don't think it's that bad. We have our whole lives to grieve. If he wants to be mad at her for trying to protect him then he'll be mad at her. That's fine. Sometimes anger helps people through these things anyways. People/Characters do what they think is right in the moment and this is a move that comes from love. She certainly isn't being malicious in keeping it from him nor was he when he kept Sara's return from her. Everything has consequences so when the chips fall, they'll fall. It's not like the show can get anymore depressing than it already is. To be honest Sara probably would have wanted it that way too, she would want to keep him unaware of things for as long as humanly possible.

Edited October 17, 2014 by slayer2

[statsgirl]

Yep, that's my issue.  And, honestly, I think the reason the first time Sara "died", hit Quentin (and Dinah for that matter) so hard, was because there wasn't a body to mourn, and get a full grieving process.  He/they deserved to get it this time, but Laurel took it out of their hands.  Do I get it on some level?  Sure, but Laurel should have been the bigger person.  Hell, if she didn't want to be the one to do it, I even would have been fine if she asked Ollie to Arrow up, and tell Quentin in disguise what happened.  But, she didn't.  And, I think it was awful of her.  

That's why this feels so wrong what Laurel did.  The family fell apart and part of it may have been because they couldn't put Sara to rest properly.  There was no proper closure because she was lost as sea and that may have contributed to Quentin's drinking and the marriage falling apart.  And now, there will never be.  Quentin and Dinah should have had the chance to say goodbye to their baby properly.  It was not Laurel's decision to make.  

 

If Laurel was that concerned about his health, she should have asked his doctor whether it was okay to tell him something bad or not.

 

Because this show is this show, I'm sure when Quentin thank Laurel for protecting him and hug her as the only daughter he has left now.

 

I agree that it's a plot device but so's everything at a certain point and honestly, killing Sara off first ep means that this is the only way they'll be able to use Detective Lance for future arcs (catching bad guys) since he certainly wouldn't be up to it if he knew his daughter was dead. He would be unceremoniously benched for the season 

Why would he be benched for the season?  A few   Bereavement leave in Canada is three days. If he wanted more he could take a weeks off.  He would have continued to mourn her for a long time but there's no reason he couldn't work at his day job, especially since he's a Captain now.

 

This way, he's looking forward to seeing Sara the next time she comes to Starling City until he finds out that she's long dead. That's cruel.

Edited October 17, 2014 by statsgirl

[dtissagirl]

For me, the unintentional result of adding up everything Laurel did -- moving Sara's body, hiding her death from Quentin, burying Sara in her old grave, and then in the end eyeing the magical jacket -- was that it felt like watching Laurel taking highly effective steps to erase Sara from existence so that she can be the only one now. I almost wish it was indicative that Laurel is gonna Single White Female Sara hardcore from now on, full psychotic break and all, which I would kinda love to watch, but I know it's not where the story is going.

Edited October 17, 2014 by dancingnancy

[Orion]

I've honestly been trying to not think about Laurel doesn't tell Quentin about Sara thoughts because I'm not able to distance myself from it as a parent.  I can't actually believe the writers thought that was in anyway acceptable. And it kills me that the only reason they wrote it this way is because they figured that they didn't want to get all the big grief scenes out of the way in one episode. They wanted to hang on for one more painful scene when Quentin finds out and has to tell Dinah. More bang for their Dead Canary buck.

 

This is Quentin's daughter. The child that he worried over for her entire life. The child that he thought was gone for 5 years and then the miracle that she survived happened. He had to deal with finding out that not only was her life a living hell but that she became a murder to survive. (His comment about just being happy Sara had someone to love her is a pretty good indicator that he at least guest this was not happy 5 years for her). He got to see his dream come true and embrace that child again. Yes, she had to leave again and that was hard for him, but she was out there breathing somewhere. Dreams of a happy for life for her could be dreamed again. He could rebuild a relationship with her because she wasn't dead. The word future and Sara could now be used together. His family, while not back together the way it was, could be built up into something that included all of them again and not a huge missing piece in the middle.

 

And then Laurel happened. Look it's no secret I'm not a fan of Laurel Lance but I have never been so disgusted with a character in fiction choices in a long time. You do not take the chance to say goodbye away. You do not decide for someone what is best. Not for someone's child.  Not all people need the closer of seeing a love one after they have passed away. But the choice was Quentin's and Dinah's whether that was something they needed to be able to let go. They can't dig her back up once they find the murderer and say here's Sara and her killer dad, now I've decided it's a good time for you to mourn. That chance is gone. He can't touch or see her or whisper words of goodbye to her. They can't because Laurel knew best.

 

Worried for his health is something that does not excuse her actions. She saw him in the hospital after Sara died. If she was worried  she could have pulled him aside there. If there was a medical emergency they were in a hospital. The alcohol issue is never going away. It applies today and it will apply tomorrow. She could have had his sponsor standing by in case he needed them. She could have called his doctor to meet here at his home if she wanted to be more private. There are about a 1,000 other things she could have done other than not telling him about the dead body in the fridge at Verdant.

 

How is Quentin going to feel when he finds out his child is in a wooden box buried in the ground in the middle of the night because Laurel thought that was the way to go. No funeral, no flowers, no new headstone, no friends and family to lean on because Laurel thought he was to weak to hear about Sara's death. Will he blame himself, that if he had just appeared stronger in front of Laurel she would have told him? That if he had just not taken that pill or set that alarm then he would have been allowed to see his child one last time? Was it his fault that Sara's mother also didn't get to know. The person who kept hope alive and kept looking for her kid for 6 years.

 

And I can completely see these writers coming up with, "Laurel, baby, I can't imagine how hard this was on you to keep it from me. Your so brave," line and the high fiving themselves for it.

 

I'm never getting over this choice in writing. And like I said, it could just be because I'm a mom and I can't separate myself from it. But wow that was the icing on a very, very bad tasting cake that was this episode.

[writersblock51]

@Orion, I shed tears reading your post. Amen to every blessed word. 

 

My husband watched the episode tonight - he was so thoroughly disgusted once it was over that he's angry at himself for trying to give the show another shot.

Edited October 17, 2014 by writersblock51

[Tangerine]

Bex Taylor-Klaus got another gig (that Scream series), but I guess it's always possible they could bring her back for a cameo or two.  But, honestly?  It wouldn't surprise me if this show forgets all about her.  Outside of the regulars, this series has always been shit with recurring characters and their story-lines.  Randomly showing up, randomly dropping out, randomly reappearing, randomly just disappearing for good.  I can hope for a Sin return, but I'm not optimistic.

 

Totally. I've been waiting for over two seasons to see Raiza the maid again.

 

I've accepted the fact that we're stuck with Laurel, but if the writers want us to accept her as the future Black Canary they REALLY have to stop writing her as dumb as possible. Either they don't realize what they're doing or they do secretly hate Laurel and want to sabotage her because I'm pretty sure I actually felt Oliver rolling his eyes underneath his mask when she was throwing that hissy fit about him taking out the bullets in the gun.

 

At the end when Laurel was crying and cuddling with Sara's shark toy I really liked her. It was a human, raw moment and I really, really felt for her. And then they abruptly switched to her staring at the leather jacket and I was back to resenting her again. Why do that? Let Laurel be a human being. Let her develop as an actual fully formed character before you shove her down the superhero path because it's DENSITY!!!!!

Edited October 17, 2014 by Tangerine

[statsgirl]

I suspect it was a mis-type (I do a lot of them) but that was a true Freudian slip. What they are doing is truly "density".

Totally. I've been waiting for over two seasons to see Raiza the maid again.

I wish we could because I have the feeling she practically raised Oliver and Tommy after his mother died and his father bailed.  But if you want to see Kathleen Gotti, she's currently on General Hospital chewing the hell out of the scenery as the wonderfully evil Dr. Lisl Olbrecht.

 

Orion, very well said.  I'm a mom too and to write Laurel doing that is unforgivable.  Even more unforgivable if Quentin thanks Laurel for worrying about him. Guggenheim has two children, how could he let that pass?

 

Parents are stronger than we think. My mother was recovering from a heart attach when she heard her child  had cancer, and she took it in her stride.  There may be an excuse for Laurel but no justification.

[Actionmage]

he has a gift right now in not knowing

 

Not really a gift. Being treated as a child by your daughter. Using your illness against your right to the damn truth. He's the freaking Captain of the city's police! He can actually get boots on the ground, where needed, and resources spared to help look for the murderer.  He's not frail ol' Aunt May, who always seemed as old as Methuselah and closer to dying than any younger damsel-in-distress. 

 

He just happened to have a reminder- because he's busy with various duties as the head cop in the city- as Laurel came in. I get laurel's grief and shock, but to treat her father as such an invalid that any-shock-could-kill-him-so-I-won't-tell-him-the-truth, is a disservice to Quentin. He has a reminder, so he's taking his meds. He's actually on the job, so he had to pass the standards for returning to duty. Everyone in the station knows about his health, so he's not alone if something happens. He may want a drink, but he got you, Laurel, through your own addiction, so I think he knows how to avoid other triggers.

 

There was no mention of Dinah in the episode, so we know that Dinah is even less relevant to her older daughter, as per the episode's writers, because there was no health reasons to keep this news from the good Professor. 

 

before you shove her down the superhero path because it's DENSITY!!!!!

 

I love this typo!!!!

[Tangerine]

I suspect it was a mis-type (I do a lot of them) but that was a true Freudian slip. What they are doing is truly "density".

Haha, it was intentional. I can't remember which TWoP forum it originated from but it was basically the word used for terrible plot points involving a character's destiny.

I can sort of rationalize that Laurel didn't want the cops involved because Sara was a part of the LOA. But not telling her parents was just awful and cruel. Think of how much worse it will be on them when Quentin and Dinah learn that they were robbed once again of burying and mourning their baby girl? And the only reason it was done was for melodrama later on.

ETA: I miss Tommy. When it was mentioned that Tommy was monitoring Oliver's email, asides from getting emotional at what an awesome friend he was, I thought "That is such a Felicity thing to do" and then I got irrationally upset that we were robbed of the chance to see the two of them interact.

Edited October 17, 2014 by Tangerine