Beth: You're going to miss me when I'm gone...

[Mu Shu]

Sweet baby Jesus in the bulrushes.  How is Beth's death "sexist"?   Pleanty of dead people men and women on this show.   We lost two this season-Bob and Beth.  50-50.

 

Sorry you'uns, but I find it completely ridiculous and incomprehensible that people would act like this over a fictional character.  My man Bob died.   I went to work and made some hummus after.    They cancelled the Witches of east End, which means I won't be seeing shirtless Daniel Di Tomasso on my TeeVee anymore.   Fine,   I found another hot dude who looks like him.   The thing I'm watching the guy in now seems to be about a little person who is an angel and a possible peeping Tom/pervert and runs 90 damn minutes AND in in French, but I soldier on. 

 

Beth is dead, baby.

[GreyBunny]

No kidding.  Was it sexist to kill Bob (whom I loved) for Sasha's womanpain? 

 

Beth died to further Maggie's storyline.  Daryl is in the mix too but so is Rick and the rest of them but this was largely for Maggie.

 

People are dying left and right, men and women, and Beth was always a redshirt, she was never meant to stay for the long haul.  She was lucky to get any storyline at all.

[Ocean Chick]

It's only sexist if you think Beth only existed to ride Daryl's peen, and therefore he will feel the most pain.  But yes, she still has kinfolk out there that will feel even more pain than Daryl.  Or should, anyways, if the writers have any sense.  And Rick and Carol will also mourn her loss, I'm willing to venture.

[GreyBunny]

Whatever you think of Beth (stupid, immature, silly, kind, loyal, patient, etc), she was no bad guy so for me, when I read here some people cheered her death, that just grossed me out because it's so ugly. Cheer for the (fictional) death of a (fictional) young woman? Ugly and I dont understand it. Dont want to understand it either.

 

Since they're fictional characters, and there's a difference between real and pretend, I don't see it ugly at all to love or hate or be indifferent to a character for whatever reason.  There are TV villains I adore and root for who would horrify me in real life, and while Beth may be a nice, normal girl in real life, she annoys me on TV and I just don't want to see her, and now I don't have to anymore.     

 

In fictional circumstances, I'd rather see the villain played by a good actor survive over a "nice" person played by a crappy actor *coughEKcough*; there have been shows where I root for the villains to kill everybody (Arrow) because the heroes are so effing obnoxious.  Besides, I'll cheer the death of ANY character - good or evil - if they get on my nerves too much or if the actor is stinking up the screen *sneezeEKsneeze*.

Edited December 5, 2014 by GreyBunny

[RainOnToosdays]

I wasn't a Beth Fan or a Beth Hater but I was interested in seeing where they were going with her. I wasn't expecting it so I was shocked by her death. Sad to lose another long-term member of the group but not something I would dwell on as she wasn't a prime player for me. What goads me is that it was such an inglorious death. 

 

[kikismom]

I don't think any of the producers/writers heads should roll (well, not for killing Beth anyway). As far as Daryl's manpain over Beth, I predicted something in April of 2014:

 

HighMaintenance: I like your recommendations on switcheroos of the dead. I think we could get through the summer hiatus with a nice fan-fiction revision of the first 4 seasons:

Ed is with the group on a run at the dept. store in Atlanta. He is foul-mouthed and hits women and is chained to a pipe on the roof. No one goes back to get him. Back at the campfire, Andrea comes out of the Winnebago complaining "There's no more batteries-" and is fatally bitten by a walker. Many people are attacked, including Lori who was bitten on the stomach and is left by the side of the road. At the CDC, Jim stays to commit suicide with Jenner. The group is hiding from the herd on the highway when Jacqui has to escape a walker by running into the woods. Dale runs after her with his rifle and hides her under an overhang. 15 minutes later, Jacqui returns to the group but Dale can't be found.

While searching for him, Daryl spots a deer but is shot by Carl (possibly accidently, possibly not) and Carol runs to the nearest house with Daryl in her arms.The group moves in to the Greene farm, where Hershel needs medical equipment and Maggie goes with Merle to the high school where they each have only one bullet left, so she shoots Merle in the leg and returns alone to the farm with the supplies. She tells everyone she is alone because she shot Merle for walker bait and everyone is fine about it.

Rick gets over Lori rather quickly, falls in love with Jacqui, and Daryl recovers and beats Carl's ass. Amy goes out to the barn to wait for Glenn, and spots the walkers. Herschel tells Rick they are just people who are not in their right mind, and when they see Zombie Dale they agree and leave them locked in the barn. Beth is mad that Glenn dumped her for Amy, and she stalks off into a cow pasture where she is mortally attacked by a fat slimy walker that Carl teased out of a well with a live chicken on a stick. They realize there is nothing they can do to save Beth, and Daryl shoots her in the head with his crossbow, saying "Sorry, whatever-your-name-is."

[kikismom]

Not too mention fridging(just google women in refridgerators if you don't get it.) Beth is truly sexist.

I confess I did not understand this at all so I looked it up in Urban Dictionary (forgot to Google it) and the definition could not possibly be whatever is meant in the above sentence. Or else it is was what Emily Thrace meant and I missed a very very startling scene in the MSF.

Edited December 5, 2014 by kikismom

[Disraeli Ears]

Raised by Herschel!

Trained by Daryl!

Killed by Dawn!

Meet The New Beth Greene!

Say Good-bye, New Beth Greene!

 

Meet the new Beth...same as the old Beth.

 

So on a related note, I read an interview with a Sons of Anarchy actor today. In it, (spoiler is for SOA, not TWD)

Dayton Callie said he didn't know Unser would be killed until he read the script for the penultimate episode, "Red Rose."

 

That person was a way more established actor/character than Emily Kinney and didn't know a key plot development ahead of time. While you could claim some difference because all SOA actors knew they were filming the last season, I still think it demonstrates that Emily's short notice is far from unusual.

[Mu Shu]

The frigding thing confuses me, too, being up on fetishes and weird shit like I am.

[kikismom]

The frigding thing confuses me, too, being up on fetishes and weird shit like I am.

[editorgrrl]

http://lby3.com/wir/

I realized one day that most of my favorite female comics characters had met untimely and often icky ends.…

An important point: This isn't about assessing blame about an individual story or the treatment of an individual character and it's certainly not about personal attacks on the creators who kindly shared their thoughts on this phenomenon. It's about the trend, its meaning and relevance, if any. Plus, it's just fun to talk about refrigerators with dead people in them. I don't know why.

[HalcyonDays]

Alright, alright, move on people... Some people cried at Beth's death (yeah, I was one of them), some people cheered, some people were devastated and some people were indifferent. Everyone reacts to things differently, so let's not be judgemental over how some reacted to her death, nor judgemental over some taking it more seriously than you yourself would. Let It Be.

[Emily Thrace]

Sweet baby Jesus in the bulrushes. How is Beth's death "sexist"? Pleanty of dead people men and women on this show. We lost two this season-Bob and Beth. 50-50.

Sorry you'uns, but I find it completely ridiculous and incomprehensible that people would act like this over a fictional character. My man Bob died. I went to work and made some hummus after. They cancelled the Witches of east End, which means I won't be seeing shirtless Daniel Di Tomasso on my TeeVee anymore. Fine, I found another hot dude who looks like him. The thing I'm watching the guy in now seems to be about a little person who is an angel and a possible peeping Tom/pervert and runs 90 damn minutes AND in in French, but I soldier on.

Beth is dead, baby.

Beth death is sexist because :

1 It treated Beth as an object . Beths death had nothing to do with Beth as a character and was all about fueling Daryls arc.

2 It shows Daryl's story as more important than Beths

3 It enforces a lot of old tropes about tragic female figures. Beth can't take on someone like Dawn because she is too "emotional"(If there is anything truly sexist about this show its how it consistently says emotions equal weakness) and therefore fragile to do so. It makes her a victim rather than someone in charge of her story.

4. No male character would have been allowed to go out the way Beth did.

As for Beth death being about Maggie I think the show just proved how little it cares about its female characters. If the show truly wanted to shock me it would give Maggie more than a third of the screentime Daryl will inevitably get from Beths death. Hell "Maggies" story will probably all about how Glenn pulls her back from the edge the same way her asault by the governor was.

[Milaxx]

It's only sexist if you think Beth only existed to ride Daryl's peen, and therefore he will feel the most pain.  But yes, she still has kinfolk out there that will feel even more pain than Daryl.  Or should, anyways, if the writers have any sense.  And Rick and Carol will also mourn her loss, I'm willing to venture.

I'm thinking all of them will mourn her loss, but it may also have an impact on Carol since she was wondering if she was fit to be around folks. I think the talks she had with Darryl in Consumed helped, but also Beth helping keep her alive while she was in Grady may impact her as well. 

[GreyBunny]

1 It treated Beth as an object . Beths death had nothing to do with Beth as a character and was all about fueling Daryls arc.

2 It shows Daryl's story as more important than Beths

3 It enforces a lot of old tropes about tragic female figures. Beth can't take on someone like Dawn because she is too "emotional"(If there is anything truly sexist about this show its how it consistently says emotions equal weakness) and therefore fragile to do so. It makes her a victim rather than someone in charge of her story.

4. No male character would have been allowed to go out the way Beth did.

 

1.  Beth was always an object.  So was Dale.  So was Hershel.  So is Judith.  Tyreese is headed in that direction. So are/were numerous other characters.  Trying to do a risky and what she thought was a righteous act that happened to end in her death was about her character.

 

2. It is.  He's a cash cow.  Michonne's story, Carol's story, Rick's story, and Maggie's story are also more important.  Again, Beth was just a secondary redshirt who got a brief bump into honorary main character status before she was offed to service other characters' - not just Daryl's - storylines.  Stories have main characters and secondary characters and the secondary characters are there to facilitate the stories of the main characters.  If that's sexist, what should be done?  Make all secondary characters male?  Now THAT would be sexist.

 

3. Plenty of males have made "too emotional" "weak" decisions that have resulted in death or injury or a horrible moral quandary.   I don't see "emotional" equated with being female and it's a hard truth in the lawless ZA world where you need to keep your wits about you to survive and letting your emotions take over too much can get you killed - male or female.  There also have been moments by both males and females where having emotions led to correct and compassionate decisions. 

If anything I'm pleased that the "emotional female" trope is being inverted. Hershel, Tyreese, Shane, Father Pee-Pants, and in the past Rick, and Morgan and other males have let their emotions get to them to the point where they couldn't do what they needed to do and it fucked up how well they functioned.  Meanwhile, Sasha, Michonne, Carol, Maggie, Tara, Rosita...getting stuff done. And so did Beth.  I'm sure she was scared in that hospital but she still helped engineer an escape (as ill-conceived as it was) and put together a plan to try to save Carol and got rid of a couple of rape-cops in the process.  Wasn't she the one who said everyone has a job to do? She did her job.  Beth was her own agent, she chose to confront Dawn on her own and, like the impulsive teenager she was, she failed to consider the consequences of attacking someone who was holding a loaded gun. 

 

4. Plenty of people, men included, have died really stupid dumbass deaths.  Beth isn't some special snowflake who deserved a heroic end any more than anyone else.  Her character had a history of being impulsive and sometimes stupid and in the ZA world that can get you killed.  This time it did.

Edited December 5, 2014 by GreyBunny

[Kadlin Mormont]

Deaths for "no reason"?:  Dale, Merle, Axel, T-Dog, Jim, Milton, Amy, Jenner, Andrea, dozens of others.

 

Deaths to serve another character's storyline?: Lori, Lizzie, Bob, Ed, Sophia, Martinez, David, Karen, Mika, Hershel, Dawn, Randall, Michonne's baby, orange backpack guy, various villains and dozens of others.

 

(Feel free to take some from column A and put them in column B and vice-versa depending on how you see the character.).

 

Senseless death or to serve another character's story?  Either way Beth ain't special.  She was just another in a long line.

 

Someone on another forum put forth the idea that Beth's death wasn't there to fuel anybody's manpain but to serve as the tipping point of loss for the entire family, and to further development of Daryl inside Carol's story and not in a sexual or romantic relationship kind of way.  Beth is just another dead girl, like Sophia, like Mika, like Lizzie, and Daryl was put on the other side of the Carol-Daryl dynamic from when Sophia stumbled out of that barn so he understands better what Carol has been going through with the losses of those girls and can better support her with coping with those deaths instead of just following her around like a forlorn puppy.

 

It was also suggested that her loss immediately after a peaceful negotiation might harden the group as a whole, "we should have just killed them all", and make it more difficult for them as individuals and collectively to integrate into a more "civilized" community should they come across one.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Kadlin Mormont

[kikismom]

3 It enforces a lot of old tropes about tragic female figures. Beth can't take on someone like Dawn because she is too "emotional"(If there is anything truly sexist about this show its how it consistently says emotions equal weakness) and therefore fragile to do so. It makes her a victim rather than someone in charge of her story.

4. No male character would have been allowed to go out the way Beth did.

In the entire tv storyline, nobody got as emotional as Rick and Morgan. It made both of them unable to do what needed to be done. Both genders have been shown as getting so emotionally crushed that they lost control of their lives; if that is sexist I don't see it.

 

At least Beth went out doing something with the intent of usefulness---it wasn't something effective, and the timing was dicey but she was being active. Dale went out doing something emotional, absolutely useless and serving no purpose, stupid timing and ended up completely helpless and screwed over in a death that was victimhood born from pure foolishness...

  (He got all huffy that people wouldn't sing kumbaya with Randall and went stalking off far from the house into a field in the dark where a cow was making horrible noises and kept getting closer to see what is was...and got jumped and bit. Stupid in so many ways, didn't even try to prove anything. (Except proving that only a moron walks around in the dark, alone, during the ZA.)

Edited December 5, 2014 by kikismom

[nodorothyparker]

I've thought all the way along since I first began to suspect that this was where the story was heading that this was going to be Sophia in the barn 2.0.  Her death wasn't really about her as a character either but about what she symbolized to the group and how her loss changed them and shifted her thinking.  Go back and watch their faces when she shambles out of the barn. That was the original loss of hope for them all and hardened Rick to the point where he was able to gun down two living people in the bar the following episode after the midseason break.  The barn slaughter and her discovery is also where Herschel and the farm people finally got it and Herschel stopped being the crank who wanted them all off his land and became the Herschel that we all loved.

 

Of course we won't know for sure until we see the back half, but I imagine we're going to see similar shifts in our crew going forward.  And that will have been the point of Beth's death and her story for the past year all along.

[BrokenRemote]

You guys are awesome!

GreyBunny, kikismom, Kadlim and nodorothyparker, you've articulated things so much better than I would have. The one thing I'll say is that overall I think, if nothing else, the show has tried and had some measure of success counteracting early tendencies toward sexism and racism. We now have a varied spectrum of characters, black, white and Asian, men and women, who all have various traits that don't have to do with stereotypes.

Beth was among them--at the end she didn't sit around waiting to be rescued like a damsel in distress (looking at you, Sleepy Hollow's Katrina!). She planned, got Noah out, prepared to fight if she had to.

Now, that preparation with tiny scissors wasn't the smartest way she could have done it, and with the typical lack of life-skills and wisdom most teens posses, she went at it too hastily and at the wrong time. But that was in no way presented as being because she was female. It was because she was young, maybe too sheltered by a father who loved her and a big sister who tried to protect her, and maybe just not the smartest person left alive.

[Watcher0363]

Well Beth you are gone, apparently bullet and head came up in the same sentence, when discussing your character. Perhaps through Daryl's man pain we will see Gibbsesque type flashbacks of you and Daryl at the funeral home.

I pay tribute to you Emily Kinney the best way I can. Through the axiom: Tragedy plus time equals comedy (satire).

In loving memory of Beth Greene: An CW announcement.

 

In order to capitalize on the rising fame of Emily Kinney after her less than appropriate exit from the Walking Dead TV series. The CW has announced that she will be starring in a new Zombie series titled. Beth Grey: Cognitive Walker. In this new series Emily will play a young southern woman of white trash origins, who was accidentally bitten by her black cognitive walker boyfriend when they are discovered having rapey lovemaking sex. The CW described rapey lovemaking sex as, when you are having consensual sex with someone usually a man who is deemed inferior. However upon discovery you cry rape to save your honor and or virtue. Along with the inappropriate eating of live humans, especially young children, this rapey sex versus rapey lovemaking sex will be a central theme. With the show being set in the deep south and its history of not being able to distinguish between the two.

 

Emily's character Beth Grey, after awakening from the dead, realizes how wrong she was for accusing her black cognitive walker boyfriend of rape, thus causing his untimely second death. She also realizes that she is a full blown cognitive walker herself with all the desires of a dead person and an extremely hot southern woman with blonde hair. She vows to only eat guinea pigs and other small rodents, to quench her appetite for living flesh. As she sets out to change the negative stereotypes of cognitive walkers and ease the fears of the living, through the magic of her singing voice and her vagina of course. All while being pursued by her never dead ex boyfriend, a meth using cop, who feels betrayed by her on so many levels.

 

The CW sees this show as a cross between 'My Name is Earl', 'Nashville' and 'the Fugitive'. And the CW knows this show is not for everyone, it will not be for the shrinking ovaries, stale eggs crowd. They can find their entertainment and or solace in Law and Order: SVU  reruns and women's self help books titled “Your OK! But that young blonde beautiful hot bitch has to die!” This show will be for the young and hip, who can appreciate that our young beautiful protagonists will encounter people from all walks of life and with her specialness, she will change them all. She will even have the power to change their Kinsey scale rating, because beautiful hot young blondes are good like that. The CW believes Emily Kinney is the perfect woman for this series. For as one executive put it, "On Emily's worst day. She is all that and a ham sandwich. And on her best day she is all that and a slightly toasted warm ham sandwich with cheese. Who just happens to have a very inviting singing voice.”

Edited December 9, 2014 by Watcher0363

[BrokenRemote]

Well Beth you are gone, apparently bullet and head came up in the same sentence, when discussing your character. Perhaps through Daryl's man pain we will see Gibbsesque type flashbacks of you and Daryl at the funeral home.

I pay tribute to you Emily Kinney the best way I can. Through the axiom: Tragedy plus time equals comedy (satire).

In loving memory of Beth Greene: An CW announcement.

In order to capitalize on the rising fame of Emily Kinney after her less than appropriate exit from the Walking Dead TV series. The CW has announced that she will be starring in a Zombie series titled. Beth Grey: Cognitive Walker. In this new series Emily will play a young southern woman of white trash origins, who was accidentally bitten by her black cognitive walker boyfriend when they are discovered having rapey lovemaking sex. CW described rapey lovemaking sex as, when you are having consensual sex with someone usually a man who is deemed inferior. However upon discovery you cry rape to save your honor and or virtue. This rapey sex versus rapey lovemaking sex will be a central theme, with the show being set in the deep south and its history of not being able to distinguish between the two. Along with the inappropriate eating of live humans, especially young children.

Emily's character Beth Grey, after awakening from the dead, realizes how wrong she was for accusing her black cognitive walker boyfriend of rape, thus causing his untimely second death. She also realizes that she is a full blown cognitive walker herself with all the desires of a dead person and an extremely hot southern woman with blonde hair. She vows to only eat guinea pigs and other small rodents, to quench her appetite for living flesh. Using the fictional character of Sally from Being Human as inspiration, she sets out to change the negative stereotypes of cognitive walkers. All while being pursued by her meth using cop ex boyfriend. Who feels betrayed by her on so many levels.

The CW knows this show is not for everyone. It will not be for the shrinking ovary stale eggs crowd. They can find their entertainment and or solace in SUV: Law and Order reruns and women's self help books titled “Your OK! But that young blonde beautiful hot bitch has to die!” This show will be for the young and hip, who can appreciate that our young beautiful protagonists will encounter people from all walks of life and with her specialness, she will change them all. She will even have the power to change their Kinsey scale rating. CW believes Emily Kinney is the perfect woman for this series. For as one executive put it, on Emily's worst day. “She is all that and a ham sandwich. And on her best day she is all that and a slightly toasted warm ham sandwich with cheese. Who just happens to have a very inviting singing voice.”

Is there a show I need to have seen to get this?

[Ocean Chick]

Well, if nothing else, I've always maintained that EK would be perfectly cast in a CW show - she fits the type to a T.  But thank you - that was quite funny.

[Constantinople]

​

I don't mind that Beth died, and I can see that a prisoner exchange could go very badly in the ZA, but the manner in which Beth died was truly pathetic writing, IMO.  A lot of characters have died in TWD for a lot of reasons, but offhand, I can't think of any other character who behaved in such an inexplicable manner before dying.

 

 

May I take a moment to remind you of Andrea's death?  She's tied to a chair, but she has a tool in which to break those bonds.  She knows Milton is dying, and once he dies he will turn.  So what does she do?  Have extended conversations with a dying man while JUST SITTING THERE, not trying to free herself.  Like she was on vacation or something.  I remember people venting about it the next day - everyone said the were screaming at their tvs for Andrea to shut up and CUT.  LOL

I think that's a fair point, but I still think Beth's scene was worse by an order of magnitude.

• Before she died, Andrea tried to escape and almost made it to the prison before being captured by the Governor, so it's not as if Andrea was completely oblivious to the idea of self-preservation
• Andrea didn't behave optimally, but she was under pressure that Beth didn't face.
• If I recall, Andrea eventually did try to free herself

To put it another way, I think there's a difference between deliberately and stupidly putting one's self in harm's way when there's no upside and having a brain cramp while trying to escape from danger.  It's not as if Andrea chained herself up, nor, as far as I recall, did she ever do something comparable to poking someone with a pair of nail scissors.

 

 

This times a million.  Her death made sense to me - Beth has a history of doing stupid and impulsive things and this time it got her killed.  It was no less dumb than sitting around and having a loud party out in the open only to get mobbed by zombies (season 1 - killed Ed and Amy among others and left Jim with a nasty bite) or any of the other deaths already mentioned above.  Greek playwright Aeschylus died when an eagle dropped a tortoise on his head (mistook his bald head for a rock to crack open the shell).  If everyone got a "noble" death with sweeping acts of heroics, THAT would be silly.  Sometimes even the best people die in stupid ways, and as far as I'm concerned Beth wasn't even one of the best people.

I don't think Beth was acting impulsively. She already had hidden the scissors. After Dawn insisted that Noah be returned, and Noah walked over to Dawn, Beth gave Noah a long hug. That, I think, was impulsive. But as the hug started to end, Beth started to stare very coldly at Dawn. Then Beth broke off the embrace and approached Dawn. After which Beth told Dawn that Beth knew who Dawn was and Beth proceeded to slip her scissors out of its hiding place and poke Dawn in the vest.

I think Beth had more than enough to think through what she planned to do. To put it another way, if this were Law & Order, and Beth somehow managed to kill Dawn, either Stone or McCoy would indict Beth for murder, not just manslaughter.

Nor, for me, is the issue a lack of a heroic death. Many characters have died in an unheroic manner. As I recall, Dale was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. It's just that Beth's death scene was so stupid.

I agree that Beth acted stupidly and has done so in the past, as has about every other character. But, in my opinion, Beth acted so stupidly that it defied credulity. If I failed to object, I would feel as if I'd forfeit my right to criticize the show ever again.

Anyway, I understand that reasonable people disagree. so I'll try to stop harping on the matter.

[natyxg]

I don't think Beth was acting impulsively. She already had hidden the scissors. After Dawn insisted that Noah be returned, and Noah walked over to Dawn, Beth gave Noah a long hug. That, I think, was impulsive. But as the hug started to end, Beth started to stare very coldly at Dawn. Then Beth broke off the embrace and approached Dawn. After which Beth told Dawn that Beth knew who Dawn was and Beth proceeded to slip her scissors out of its hiding place and poke Dawn in the vest.

I think Beth had more than enough to think through what she planned to do. To put it another way, if this were Law & Order, and Beth somehow managed to kill Dawn, either Stone or McCoy would indict Beth for murder, not just manslaughter.

Nor, for me, is the issue a lack of a heroic death. Many characters have died in an unheroic manner. As I recall, Dale was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. It's just that Beth's death scene was so stupid.

I agree that Beth acted stupidly and has done so in the past, as has about every other character. But, in my opinion, Beth acted so stupidly that it defied credulity. If I failed to object, I would feel as if I'd forfeit my right to criticize the show ever again.

Anyway, I understand that reasonable people disagree. so I'll try to stop harping on the matter.

 

Very well said. I agree.

 

I don't think Beth acted impulsively either. I don't know why she took the scissors to begin with, I'm not sure that at the moment she planned to kill Dawn with them. But I really think that at the moment that Dawn said that Noah had to stay, Beth decided to kill her because she realized the kind of person she had truly become, regardless all of her excuses. She was just like the other jerk cops Beth killed, even though she didn't go around raping women. So her walk towards Dawn, how she stared her down, her line about getting it... all through that she was planning to kill her. So it's just weird that she sucked so bad at it and it was just so stupid.

 

Now, besides the stupidity of the death, it does bother me that they gave her an arc that they just randomly decided to close by killing her. She didn't have to have some heroic death, but I think she deserved a death that made sense in execution and made sense within the whole of her arc. Because they gave her an arc. If she was just of the gang that got randomly eaten, well okay. But as I was watching her plot I thought it was about her becoming stronger and harder, but then at the last minuted they changed it to her being the new Dawn and Dawn being the new Hansen, or something. And to top it off her actual death was completely nonsensical to me. I thought it was a damn mess and the directing was weird.

 

Plus, we didn't even get a good reunion with the gang, after all that. It was just lame to me. Felt like they were just going for shock value because it was the midseason finale, and then later they will go for angst. We'll have to see if the angst will be mostly Maggie's or mostly Daryl's, or if it will be evenly distributed.

[Ocean Chick]

 I have a feeling that TPTB were trying to show that, yes, people need to change and become harder and stronger, and Beth was starting on her journey to get there.  But she started to change too late, and it was too little.  Sometimes that happens in life - people get smarter too late to do any good.  And it's a shame.  I think Beth took the scissors as a "just in case" weapon - any weapon is better than none.  She didn't plan beforehand to stab Dawn, until she thought Dawn was going to "win" Noah.  That pissed her off, and we all know how impulsive pissed off teens can be.  Beth was acting her age.

 

And in real life people don't always get to say good-bye to their loved ones, so it makes sense that Beth didn't get a group send-off.  Lori didn't get to say good-bye to Rick, and Sophia didn't get to say good-bye to Carol.  Nor Hersel to Beth and Maggie.  It sucks, but there it is.

[diebartdie]

 

she sucked so bad at it and it was just so stupid.

 

Now, besides the stupidity of the death, it does bother me that they gave her an arc that they just randomly decided to close by killing her. She didn't have to have some heroic death, but I think she deserved a death that made sense in execution and made sense within the whole of her arc. Because they gave her an arc. If she was just of the gang that got randomly eaten, well okay. But as I was watching her plot I thought it was about her becoming stronger and harder, but then at the last minuted they changed it to her being the new Dawn and Dawn being the new Hansen, or something. And to top it off her actual death was completely nonsensical to me. I thought it was a damn mess and the directing was weird.

 

Plus, we didn't even get a good reunion with the gang, after all that. It was just lame to me. Felt like they were just going for shock value because it was the midseason finale

THIS! Exactly! It's not that she didn't get a "heroic death", the girl wasn't a hero! For me it wasn't even that she got a stupid death, what it really boils down to for me is #1 they gave her a freekin arc that they just forgot in the last minute of the last act of the arc and #2 Beth would have at least drawn blood. I mean really, the girl would have drawn blood. She wasn't a "special snowflake" (not to me anyway, besides everyone knows Daryl is the special snowflake), she's like everyone else in that world, everyone got cheated out of a life worth living but damn, the AUDIENCE deserved better (slash Dawn's face! Jab the tiny scissors in her neck!)

 

We're beating a dead horse here aren't we?

[editorgrrl]

We're beating a dead horse here aren't we?

 

Yes.

 

AMC has posted a video (approximately three minutes long) "follow[ing] Beth's journey through The Walking Dead." It includes interviews with cast and crew.

[ghoulina]

4. Plenty of people, men included, have died really stupid dumbass deaths.

 

Jimmy comes to mind. I will never, for the life of me, understand WHY he got up off the seat when Rick and Carl landed on the RV. Why, Jimmy???? So effing dumb. No wonder he and Beth dated. 

[BrokenRemote]

​

 

 

I think that's a fair point, but I still think Beth's scene was worse by an order of magnitude.

• Before she died, Andrea tried to escape and almost made it to the prison before being captured by the Governor, so it's not as if Andrea was completely oblivious to the idea of self-preservation
• Andrea didn't behave optimally, but she was under pressure that Beth didn't face.
• If I recall, Andrea eventually did try to free herself

To put it another way, I think there's a difference between deliberately and stupidly putting one's self in harm's way when there's no upside and having a brain cramp while trying to escape from danger.  It's not as if Andrea chained herself up, nor, as far as I recall, did she ever do something comparable to poking someone with a pair of nail scissors.

 

 

I don't think Beth was acting impulsively. She already had hidden the scissors. After Dawn insisted that Noah be returned, and Noah walked over to Dawn, Beth gave Noah a long hug. That, I think, was impulsive. But as the hug started to end, Beth started to stare very coldly at Dawn. Then Beth broke off the embrace and approached Dawn. After which Beth told Dawn that Beth knew who Dawn was and Beth proceeded to slip her scissors out of its hiding place and poke Dawn in the vest.

I think Beth had more than enough to think through what she planned to do. To put it another way, if this were Law & Order, and Beth somehow managed to kill Dawn, either Stone or McCoy would indict Beth for murder, not just manslaughter.

Nor, for me, is the issue a lack of a heroic death. Many characters have died in an unheroic manner. As I recall, Dale was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. It's just that Beth's death scene was so stupid.

I agree that Beth acted stupidly and has done so in the past, as has about every other character. But, in my opinion, Beth acted so stupidly that it defied credulity. If I failed to object, I would feel as if I'd forfeit my right to criticize the show ever again.

Anyway, I understand that reasonable people disagree. so I'll try to stop harping on the matter.

 

Before Beth died she tried to escape once and almost made it out with Noah, so it's not like Beth was completely obvlivious to the idea of self-preservation.

 

I don't understand why a character with an arc must be kept alive until viewers feel that arc has gone as far as it could go.  I felt like T-Dog had an arc--he was at first wary of some of the group, especially Daryl due to Merle, and he held himself apart from them.  But he slowly came to be closer to the others, and he was one of the go-to group that went in back-to-back to clear the prison.  We were starting to hear more about his past and find out more about who he was. There was much more they could have told.  And I could describe an unfinished arc for lots of other secondary characters, too.  

 

I think that this argument is an attempt to explain something that's intrinsically wrong with the writing, when it's not the writing at all, but that some people really identified with Beth and didn't want to see her story end yet, or wanted her end to be made into something symbolic or special. I haven't heard one argument yet about why Beth's death was so egregious that cannot be applied to at least two other deaths on the show, usually many more than that.  I think that Beth stood in for lots of folks, was who they imagined they would be in the apocolypse, and so it felt more awful when she died.  I obviously can't say what people's feelings really are, but it's my best guess.  What I am pretty sure about is that there is no failure of writing (that withstands scrutiny) that explains the (perfectly legitimate) feelings of those who are so upset over Beth's exit.

Edited December 5, 2014 by BrokenRemote

[Sakura12]

I'm not upset at Beth's death. I would've liked to see her with the group now that she actually killed people and was a tiny bit tougher.

 

But I also I don't think she warrants a bring back petition. She wasn't that interesting. 

[Kadlin Mormont]

She was just a plot device.  That's all she ever was and all she was ever meant to be.  Gimple straight up said so.  She got a brief highlight so the audience would care when she was killed off but she was always just a plot device.  Just like so many other characters on this show.

[TexasChic]

I'm not upset at Beth's death. I would've liked to see her with the group now that she actually killed people and was a tiny bit tougher.

 

But I also I don't think she warrants a bring back petition. She wasn't that interesting.

 

Sorry, the quote thing never works right for me from work. I agree with what you said, I would like to have seen her go through some changes, I think it would have been interesting, but I'm not that upset about it. And honestly, if they didn't bring back Tara on Buffy, they aren't going to bring back Beth (people were seriously fired up about that one!).

Edited December 6, 2014 by HalcyonDays
Fixed stubborn acting quote tags...

[Ronin Jackson]

The argument about whether Beth's death is sexist is an interesting one, and obviously a touchy one.  My take is, sexism is real, as is racism, and yes art and fiction can reflect that... especially film and television, which behind the scenes is dominated by white males.  But the individual viewer has a role here as well.  Some people do have the tendency to watch everything through a political prism, where every female character, or every minority character, becomes a representative of that sex or race.  It's an understandable tendency because gender and race tend to not be proportionately well represented... it's not necessarily a question of numbers with gender, but certainly with the type of roles, there is an issue.  But yet, if a white male character is weak, flawed, or bad, it's generally not regarded as a race or gender issue.  And some characters are weak, flawed and bad.  Should white male characters be freer to have flaws than other characters because those characters do not need to be held up as representatives of their race or gender?  I'd like to see it move past the point where a character who is not a white male has to be defined by their race or gender.  And I say that while acknowledging there remain race and gender issues in the media.

 

Beth was a weak character both in terms of the character's personality, and how the character was developed, but I'd say the latter was more an issue of bad writing than sexism.  But she could have been a better written character, and still be weak and immature, because that's how some people are, even teenage girls.  This show does have other female characters.... Carol, Michonne, Maggie, etc. all of whom have different attributes and nuances.

 

None of this is to say that sexism is always in the eye of the beholder.  This show opened with a strange scene of Rick and Shane discussing their differing viewpoints about how women are different from men.  I rewatched the pilot, which is still one of my favorite episodes of the series, after having watched the series for a while, and I was struck by how clunky that scene was and how it didn't seem to fit with the show.  At that point, when you have characters having a conversation like that, they are obviously inviting a discussion about gender roles and bringing that into the show.  But it does seem wherever Daranbont wanted to go with that has been long since ditched. 

[GreyBunny]

A few were saying that the clock in Beth's room which read 8 and then 10 in Slabtown meant that the group would think that she was dead in episode 8 and then she'd appear alive in episode 10 and go to north with Morgan.  Or something like that.  

 

Here's what the clocks REALLY meant:  In episode 8 at 10 pm airtime Beth dies.  Time's up for Beth!  ;)

Edited December 5, 2014 by GreyBunny

[JBody]

It is a bit of an oddity, that scene now, in context with what has gone on since then. But it did establish Shane as kind of a player with a sense of humour; big trouble in the marriage of Rick and Lori; and BFF/partner Shane's interest in said troubles, which in retrospect seem a bit vulturish... I liked the scene, as I liked the entire pilot, but yes it has a certain lost world quality to it with the banter --that humour is gone.

[editorgrrl]

What an amazing post, Ronin Jackson. Thank you! Please come share your insights in the TWD Women Who's the bigger threat - Walkers or Writers? thread.

None of this is to say that sexism is always in the eye of the beholder.  This show opened with a strange scene of Rick and Shane discussing their differing viewpoints about how women are different from men.  I rewatched the pilot, which is still one of my favorite episodes of the series, after having watched the series for a while, and I was struck by how clunky that scene was and how it didn't seem to fit with the show.  At that point, when you have characters having a conversation like that, they are obviously inviting a discussion about gender roles and bringing that into the show.  But it does seem wherever Daranbont wanted to go with that has been long since ditched.

Now I need to rewatch "Days Gone Bye" (season 1, episode 1). According to AMC, it's airing Tuesday, December 30, 9–10:30 a.m.

Edited December 5, 2014 by editorgrrl

[TexasChic]

The petition reached 10,000, so there's definitely a large group that are upset with her death. I thought it was kind of obvious it was going to happen. I mean, after the draggy episode, I knew there had to be some big bang planned for the mid season finale. So when Beth got shot, I was like, "Oh, so THIS is it." It kind of took away the shock it might have been otherwise. I think I was too relieved it wasn't Carol or Daryl to get too upset by it as well. But it was an oddly written episode - something disjointed about it.

Here's an interesting article about it:

http://moviepilot.com/posts/2014/12/04/beth-s-shocking-death-on-the-walking-dead-sparks-petition-to-bring-her-back-2481782?lt_source=external,manual

Edited December 6, 2014 by TexasChic

[GreyBunny]

She was just a plot device.  That's all she ever was and all she was ever meant to be.  Gimple straight up said so.  She got a brief highlight so the audience would care when she was killed off but she was always just a plot device.  Just like so many other characters on this show.

 

Agreed.  If they wanted to keep Beth around for the long haul, they would have cast an age-appropriate teenager to play the part, not a woman in her late 20's who would soon age out of the role. Some say that EK already had.

[natyxg]

I think Beth was a plot device/redshirt for the majority of her time on the show, but that changed in the second half of season 4. Hell, they even gave her a whole episode, just for her. If they were gonna just randomly blow her head off nonsensically, then they should've let her be a MacGuffin that was never even shown on screen while she was missing, and made it all about Maggie and Daryl angsting over finding her.

 

I didn't love Beth. I didn't want her to die because I thought she was a cute blonde that I found harmless. Then, because she started trying, I wanted her to make it. But in reality, I wanted to like her more than I did. There was always something off, something missing. I shed no tears for her.

 

Still, her death bothered me because I sat through like two episodes of her and Daryl, an episode of Daryl angsting over losing her and joining that gang, an entire episode with her alone in the hospital, an episode of Daryl and Carol looking for her, half of the midseason finale dedicated to her and Dawn.... and the payoff was super stupid. I am not here for dumb shit like this.

[NoWillToResist]

Beth death is sexist because :

1 It treated Beth as an object . Beths death had nothing to do with Beth as a character and was all about fueling Daryls arc.

 

Is this a spoiler? Because in show time, Beth has been dead for about 1 minute of screen-time. No one had an arc after her death (unless you count Morgan in the coda) because that closed the episode. After Beth died, I saw the reactions of ALL of our gang to her death. Maggie's was highlighted, as was Daryl's, which makes sense since they were the closest to her.

 

I don't know what impact this will have on Daryl since the episode ended before any other threads started up, so unless we see in 2015 Maggie's grief for her sister ignored in favour of showing Daryl's grief, I think it's a little too soon to condemn the death of Beth (heh, it rhymes!) simply as a device to give meat to Daryl's narrative.

 

And let's be honest, considering how much time the crew spent at the prison, those bonds will be very strong, so the person most affected by the loss of Beth will be Judith and she will ROCK her facial reactions to her missing caretaker. ;)

Edited December 6, 2014 by NoWillToResist

[Mu Shu]

The petition reached 10,000, so there's definitely a large group that are upset with her death. I thought it was kind of obvious it was going to happen. I mean, after the draggy episode, I knew there had to be some big bang planned for the mid season finale. So when Beth got shot, I was like, "Oh, so THIS is it." It kind of took away the shock it might have been otherwise. I think I was too relieved it wasn't Carol or Daryl to get too upset by it as well. But it was an oddly written episode - something disjointed about it.

Here's an interesting article about it:

http://moviepilot.com/posts/2014/12/04/beth-s-shocking-death-on-the-walking-dead-sparks-petition-to-bring-her-back-2481782?lt_source=external,manual

That's fantastic.   Now can these people join the petition to bring back Witches of Eastwick so I can stop watching these incomprehensible shows in French? 

 

Who wants to join me in a Bob petition? 

[ghoulina]

I'll support your Bob petition if you can get on board with both my Darabont and Jim petitions.

[RainOnToosdays]

Will someone please remind me who on earth Jim was? His name keeps coming up as a dead character people liked but I have no idea who he was?

[Irishmaple]

Season 1.  The depressed-looking guy who took to digging graves on the hill before getting a bite and being left, at his own request, at the side of road to die and turn.

[editorgrrl]

Jim (Andrew Rothenberg) was an Atlanta mechanic in Season 1. He deactivated the car alarm in Glenn's red sports car. He dug holes. (Like a meth head?) Then he was bitten and took to his sickbed in the RV.

http://walkingdead.wikia.com/wiki/Jim_%28TV_Series%29

While on the road, he claims his sickness is worsening and asks that he be left behind, for the sake of the survivors. He is reluctantly left by a tree after being carried out of the RV, refuses to take a handgun from Rick in order to spare himself/his body the "life" of becoming a walker, and is bid a final farewell by each of the survivors as they leave.

[RainOnToosdays]

Ah, OK, thankyou. I remember that character though I do not remember him being left by the tree to die at all, must have nodded of during that episode. 

[RedheadZombie]

A few were saying that the clock in Beth's room which read 8 and then 10 in Slabtown meant that the group would think that she was dead in episode 8 and then she'd appear alive in episode 10 and go to north with Morgan.  Or something like that.  

 

Good Lord!  I suppose she rises on Easter?

 

I want a petition to bring back the golden retriever/yellow lab that lived in Woodbury. 

[bunnyblue]

Season 1.  The depressed-looking guy who took to digging graves on the hill before getting a bite and being left, at his own request, at the side of road to die and turn.

 

Jim (Andrew Rothenberg) was an Atlanta mechanic in Season 1. He deactivated the car alarm in Glenn's red sports car. He dug holes. (Like a meth head?) Then he was bitten and took to his sickbed in the RV.

 

 

Jim also had that awful gross neckbeard. Yuck. I didn't know he was a mechanic. That explains why he was always putzing around with Dale's stupid RV. 

[GreyBunny]

The petition reached 10,000, so there's definitely a large group that are upset with her death.

 

10,000 is 0.07% of 14 million.  That's assuming that each signature is unique and some people haven't signed it multiple times using different names.  

 

0.07% is a teeny tiny amount, I don't think Gimple is quaking in his boots.

Edited December 6, 2014 by GreyBunny

[kikismom]

Good Lord!  I suppose she rises on Easter?

lol

 

 

There is already a Bethyl fan-fic online starting right after the end of the MSF:

 

Beth was alive! It seemed impossible! It had been a clear head shot! Yet, there she was...

 

On and on but I had to stop reading before I wet my pants laughing.

Edited December 6, 2014 by kikismom