TWD Women Who's the bigger threat: Walkers or Writers?

[Pete Martell]

The writers seem to be a bigger threat to Michonne.  She can handle walkers.  Michonne won't be in Sunday's episode and it looks like she's going to be left at the church with the kids while the rest (including Tyreese) go off to fight.  I haven't heard if she'll be flipping pancakes and singing spirituals but I wouldn't be surprised.

 

I'm not entirely sure what the writers were thinking this season.  Did they think that in order to make certain characters look good, they had to tear down other characters?  Did they think that pushing Danai in the background would change the fact that she's one of the strongest (if not THE strongest) actors on the show?  It's not working for me; it's just REALLY pissing me off. 

 

What's especially irritating is I haven't heard about a bottle episode for Michonne.  What the fuck's up with that?  Not only is she one of the most important characters on the tv show, she's one of the most important comic book characters. 

 

I suppose it could be worse.  In the tiny glimpses we've had of Michonne, at least she's still MICHONNE.  I don't recognize Maggie.  I mentioned in another thread that I thought Maggie might be self-medicating in order to deal with all the horror she's been through and that theory is making more and more sense.  It would explain her lying down in a street full of walkers when Sasha and Bob left her alone.  That wasn't Maggie.  And, most importantly, it would explain Maggie's inability to mourn her father or remember her sister.  If she's taking drugs to mask the pain, then her walking around with that Stepford Wife smile and telling Eugene Bible stories out of the blue makes sense.

 

It seemed like Maggie to me. She's not superhuman. She'd lost everything and everyone, she was exhausted, weakened, and pushing everyone away. She got right back up once Sasha got involved. I actually thought that was a great episode for Maggie, trying to move forward and finding new bonds with Sasha and Bob. 

 

It's this season that disappoints me - not just the lack of mentioning Beth, but also that they don't seem to have anything for her to say or do. 

 

I don't agree that she isn't mourning Hershel. She may not be getting scenes where she talks about him, but she was obviously crushed by his loss. If they kept mentioning it over and over it would feel forced to me. They mentioned it a little more with Beth, but Beth got an entire episode to herself. Maggie didn't.

 

I also disagree that they've "torn Michonne down." Michonne still seems 100% in character to me, and they gave her a decent little mini-arc about her katana. 

 

Gimple is the one who wrote one of the first episodes that allowed viewers to truly see Michonne ("Clear"), and as showrunner he gave her some wonderful moments in season 4. I don't think he's suddenly saying she has to go.

 

The problem is that she hasn't had enough airtime. And it does stand out, because Michonne's one of the best characters on TV. Rick and Carl have also had a backseat, but Rick is the nominal lead, so we know we'll see more of him soon enough. We don't have that assurance with Michonne. We don't know if she'll ever get a big story or episode. 

 

I don't think they are trying to diminish her to prop others. I remember last season some Carol fans were convinced the show wanted viewers to hate her so she could be written out and other women could shine. I never felt like that was true either. Now that Carol is more prominent again, maybe the same will happen to Michonne. 

 

I think she's a victim of the way the show now writes in cycles. And that is a disappointment, but I don't feel like the show is against her or hostile to her. If anything I just think they don't appreciate her enough.

[Mu Shu]

I'm not sure it's been every woman. Beth and Maggie were sexually assaulted. Joe's group talked about wanting to rape Michonne. Sasha, Tara, Rosita and Carol haven't been threatened or sexually assaulted, from what I remember.

 

It's an overused, ugly writing choice, and I think the show didn't do a good job of dealing with the assault on Abraham's wife and daughter, but I'd say TWD uses it far less than many dystopian works of fiction.

You and I really have different views on what a lot of rape threats are, then.   It's practically a constant on this show.   Lori, Beth, Maggie, Carl, Michonne, Sofia implied by her own father,  the women at the hospital,  now Abe's family.   That's certainly a lot for one show.    I'll not ask you to share your list of dystopian fiction, if you don't mind.   

[Pete Martell]

For a show that's been on 5 seasons, I don't think it's that much.

 

I do think sometimes the show has handled the issue poorly or have been somewhat exploitive. I don't think Shane's attack of Lori was well-handled. I don't think the Abraham stuff was well-handled.

 

In other cases, I feel like it's just typical of this type of world. For instance, the claimers talking about raping Michonne. Yes, on the one hand, I know that was done for tension and to make us care more about Rick getting them away from that house, but I also thought it was believable, and done in a way that added drama without crossing a line of trying to pass it off as some lurid thrill. And ultimately Michonne got payback.

 

I also thought they handled the Beth material well, showing the threat the women faced without making it into something trashy or tabloid.

 

If you disagree, I respect your opinion.

[mightysparrow]

It seemed like Maggie to me. She's not superhuman. She'd lost everything and everyone, she was exhausted, weakened, and pushing everyone away. She got right back up once Sasha got involved. I actually thought that was a great episode for Maggie, trying to move forward and finding new bonds with Sasha and Bob. 

 

It's this season that disappoints me - not just the lack of mentioning Beth, but also that they don't seem to have anything for her to say or do. 

 

I don't agree that she isn't mourning Hershel. She may not be getting scenes where she talks about him, but she was obviously crushed by his loss. If they kept mentioning it over and over it would feel forced to me. They mentioned it a little more with Beth, but Beth got an entire episode to herself. Maggie didn't.

 

I also disagree that they've "torn Michonne down." Michonne still seems 100% in character to me, and they gave her a decent little mini-arc about her katana. 

 

Gimple is the one who wrote one of the first episodes that allowed viewers to truly see Michonne ("Clear"), and as showrunner he gave her some wonderful moments in season 4. I don't think he's suddenly saying she has to go.

 

The problem is that she hasn't had enough airtime. And it does stand out, because Michonne's one of the best characters on TV. Rick and Carl have also had a backseat, but Rick is the nominal lead, so we know we'll see more of him soon enough. We don't have that assurance with Michonne. We don't know if she'll ever get a big story or episode. 

 

I don't think they are trying to diminish her to prop others. I remember last season some Carol fans were convinced the show wanted viewers to hate her so she could be written out and other women could shine. I never felt like that was true either. Now that Carol is more prominent again, maybe the same will happen to Michonne. 

 

I think she's a victim of the way the show now writes in cycles. And that is a disappointment, but I don't feel like the show is against her or hostile to her. If anything I just think they don't appreciate her enough.

 

I don't think they're hostile to Michonne or want her gone.  I agree with you that Michonne is one of the best characters on TV and tptb know that.  They know how popular the character and the actor who plays her is and while I think they're stupid, they're not CRAZY.  But I agree that they don't appreciate her enough.  Danai is one of the few actors on TWD whose career was doing well when she joined the cast.  Unlike many of her castmates, Danai didn't NEED TWD. The show has given her a much wider audience than her film and theatre work has given her but she's an award winning playwright who's been in some major plays and indie films.  In my opinion, Kirkman and Gimple should be daily thanking whatever deity they believe in that they have Danai Gurira in their cast.  I think they're taking her for granted, pulling her out when they want to sell magazines or get some media attention but not giving her any airtime on the damn show.

 

Every person I know who's a Michonne fan is pissed.  Danai's fans might not be as extreme as other character's fans.  We don't try to intimidate the show runners or make death threats to actors we think are getting too close to Norman Reedus, on or off camera.  But that doesn't mean we aren't an important fan base.  The show has been doing a lot of fan pandering this season, maybe they should pander to Michonne's fans.

[editorgrrl]

From S05.E05: Self Help

Last week's episode was far superior in terms of suspense, philosophy and acting, but hey it centred on a female character that isn't Carol (who may as well be a man based on the way she behaves these days) so most TWD fans seem to think the other way.

So this might be better discussed in a thread that's centered on Carol, but I'm intrigued. How does a woman "act like a man" during the za? Are they supposed to act differently? Does Michonne act like a man or a woman with how she behaves on the show? Should the women be cowering in a corner, waiting for a man to rescue her? Or does she focus on cooking and cleaning while the men defend the campsite? Was it Carol rescuing the group by using her brains and daring, making it seem like she was a man?

Enquiring minds want to know! LOL

I don't understand the OP's assertion that Carol "may as well be a man based on the way she behaves these days," and I think the biggest threat to the women of TWD is the shippers. Why do so many Beth fans bash Carol fans, Carol, and/or Melissa McBride? And Carol fans bash Beth fans, Beth, and/or Emily Kinney? It got so bad in one of the character threads (I forget which*) that mods had to post—twice!—asking people to agree to disagree and move on.

I have seen the enemy, and she is us.

*Edited to say it was Beth's thread:

Hey everyone,

Obviously Beth is a very polarizin' character, and EK a polarizin' actress, who lots of people like and lots of people hate. But let's stop assumin' that people who disagree with us on that front are doing that because they're jealous of how she's prettier or younger or whatever than them, or because they're vacuous CW-watching teenagers, or whatever else.

Dougal posted a nice little reminder higher up on this page about respecting people's opinions about Beth, that apparently everyone didn't bother to read.

SO READ THIS: Do not insult other posters, call them names or dismiss their opinion simply because it is NOT your own. Respect other's opinions, however different they may be to yours. Agree to disagree and move on.

Edited November 11, 2014 by editorgrrl

[Pete Martell]

mightysparrow, if there are ever any write-in campaigns or Twitter trending campaigns, or whatever you call them, to remind TWD of Michonne's importance, please let me know. I ignore a lot of TWD fandom stuff because of shipping wars and actor bashing, but if there's any stuff that is about Michonne and Danai, and not about how awful someone else is, I'd support that. 

[mightysparrow]

mightysparrow, if there are ever any write-in campaigns or Twitter trending campaigns, or whatever you call them, to remind TWD of Michonne's importance, please let me know. I ignore a lot of TWD fandom stuff because of shipping wars and actor bashing, but if there's any stuff that is about Michonne and Danai, and not about how awful someone else is, I'd support that. 

 

Oh, write-in campaigns aren't my thing and I don't even have a Twitter account.  I'm sure somebody has something on Twitter though so you can check that out.  Those kind of campaigns tend to get overtaken by the lunatic fringe and I'd hate for something like that to happen to Danai.  She just got a Twitter account this year and from what I read on another board, she uses it to remind people about social issues.  I'd hate for her account to suddenly get flooded by tweets from fanatic fans.  But if I do hear about anything that doesn't sound insane or hateful, I'll definitely let you know.

[MrHufflepuff]

Back generally to the issue of women on this show, for me personally, I feel like the women on this show tend to be very reactive (and I include Michonne in that), rather than taking on a leadership or planning role.  I think the Terminus episode for me is where I feel like they finally broke out of that with Carol.  She was calm, collected and she put together a pretty clever strategy.  And I feel that prior to this season, we haven't really seen a female character do that.  We've seen female characters who can kick ass physically, but even with Stabtown, the cop-in-charge seemed to be more of a figurehead that someone who was actually a leader.

 

It's difficult, because it's a ZA, so a lot of characters are going to be reactive.  And the main leadership role is taken up by the star (Rick), so that leaves less of a leadership role for other people.  But I think it might have been interesting to make someone like Abraham a female character.  That would have deviated from the comics, so I'm sure there would have been fan outrage, but it would have been interesting for me.

[RedheadZombie]

I am up to my eyeballs over the constant rape meme. Enough already. Must every female be threatened with sex abuse?

 

I think in a real post-apocalyptic world, there may be few women who escape being assaulted.  With anarchy, raping and pillaging would be common and historically, women have been considered spoils of war.  There would also be women consenting to sex due to coercion or to trade for protection for herself and/or her children.  So I think IRL, we would see more of our group preyed on at this point.  That being said, there's a certain level of realism I'm not interested in, and along with yellow teeth, unibrows, hairy female armpits, pooping whilst watching for walkers, and peeing in the outdoors - I don't want or need to see it.

 

I think (but don't know for sure), that there is some pretty graphic raping of characters in the comics.  I'm grateful that the show has chosen to show attempted rape, attempted coercive rape, and threats of rape in lieu of the actual act (not that those aren't bad on their own).  I think part of the problem is the historical use of rape to create sympathy for a female character, to "redeem" an unlikeable female character, or to quickly establish a male character is a bad guy.  To an extent, it's lazy writing.

 

 

 That Samson story was one of the loopiest, least likely scenes I've seen not just from Maggie but on this show in 5 seasons.

 

It was a little bizarre and apropos of nothing.  It almost struck me as the writer had no knowledge of the bible, but knew Maggie was raised religious, so rather than doing research for an appropriate metaphor or parable - they wrote this crap from watching Samson and Delilah as a kid.

 

How does a woman "act like a man" during the za?

 

She pees outdoors?  She farts and belches at will and laughs at herself?  She leaves the toilet seat up. She pulls a t-shirt out of the dirty laundry and sniffs it before putting it on.  She scratches her balls, slaps men on the ass, spits, and occludes one nostril while shooting snot out of the other one (Wait ... that's just an "act like a man" athlete).

[Emily Thrace]

Back generally to the issue of women on this show, for me personally, I feel like the women on this show tend to be very reactive (and I include Michonne in that), rather than taking on a leadership or planning role.  I think the Terminus episode for me is where I feel like they finally broke out of that with Carol.  She was calm, collected and she put together a pretty clever strategy.  And I feel that prior to this season, we haven't really seen a female character do that.  We've seen female characters who can kick ass physically, but even with Stabtown, the cop-in-charge seemed to be more of a figurehead that someone who was actually a leader.

 

It's difficult, because it's a ZA, so a lot of characters are going to be reactive.  And the main leadership role is taken up by the star (Rick), so that leaves less of a leadership role for other people.  But I think it might have been interesting to make someone like Abraham a female character.  That would have deviated from the comics, so I'm sure there would have been fan outrage, but it would have been interesting for me.

I still see Carol as very reactive actually she didn't have a plan at Terminus until she got there for one.Enve then her whole plan was basically just cause as much chaos as possible. I can't help wonder what she would have done if that propane tank had been empty(which logically it should have been if the Termites were living there for over a year presumably using propane for most of their cooking) Its actually one my bigger issues with her character that she doesn't seem to think things through.  Like with killing Karvid. Or in the new sneek peak when she talking about running the cross car off the road. That gets you what you want, how exactly? I mean the most likely outcome is you kill them or better yet wreck both cars either way it doesn't help get Beth back. Its like Carol take the easiest most obvious solutions and just runs with it rather stopping to think of something better.  Sasha is good at plans though, she the one who planned out most of the Big Spot for one.  Sasha also saw the potential in the old buildings in Alone and a few other examples. Its why she's actually one of my faves I'm really glad she got the focus she has this season.

 

Actually now that I think of if any female character is sucking screentime its Carol It wouldn't be so bad if she moving forward but its all the same old "I killed people and I'm sad" schitck. I'm not saying the character should be fine but the viewers have been watching this for a year and it would nice to get a break. In addition to being repetitive Carol's story really hasn't been about Carol since The Grove. At least Beth story was about Beth. Carol's whole story has been about how what she did effected the men in her life. Would it have killed tptb to have Carol face what she did and talk to Maggie or even the whole group instead of having Tyrese have to deal with the consequneces of what Carol did again. I'm worried about next week for this reason. I've given up on Carol saying "I killed people and I was wrong" I just hope next week isn't her  lecturing Daryl on how believing Beth is alive is somehow "weak".

 

I don't understand the OP's assertion that Carol "may as well be a man based on the way she behaves these days," and I think the biggest threat to the women of TWD is the shippers. Why do so many Beth fans bash Carol fans, Carol, and/or Melissa McBride? And Carol fans bash Beth fans, Beth, and/or Emily Kinney? It got so bad in one of the character threads (I forget which*) that mods had to post—twice!—asking people to agree to disagree and move on.

I have seen the enemy, and she is us

Generally TPTB are smart enough not to take shippers too seriously, I hope. Either way most of the wakling dead fandom is likely to be a shit show until the MSF airs.

 

As for Carol becoming masculine, I think the poster is referring to Carol becoming colder and how that is bother perceived as a good thing and a typically masculine trait.

[Pete Martell]

For me most of the characters on the show are reactive, and those who tried to be proactive were often punished for it (Shane, Andrea, various villains). I do agree that Carol was something of a turning point.

[mightysparrow]

 

Actually now that I think of if any female character is sucking screentime its Carol It wouldn't be so bad if she moving forward but its all the same old "I killed people and I'm sad" schitck. I'm not saying the character should be fine but the viewers have been watching this for a year and it would nice to get a break. In addition to being repetitive Carol's story really hasn't been about Carol since The Grove. At least Beth story was about Beth. Carol's whole story has been about how what she did effected the men in her life. Would it have killed tptb to have Carol face what she did and talk to Maggie or even the whole group instead of having Tyrese have to deal with the consequneces of what Carol did again. I'm worried about next week for this reason. I've given up on Carol saying "I killed people and I was wrong" I just hope next week isn't her  lecturing Daryl on how believing Beth is alive is somehow "weak".

 

I couldn't agree more.  Carol's angst is the female version of all the manpain we've had to endure.  I don't think Carol has ever thought that what she did was wrong, she just wants people to feel sorry for her.  Maybe it's all that time she spent being a victim; it's her default role and she goes there when the pressure is on.  According to Carol killing Karen and David and what happened in The Grove was harder on her than it was on anybody else, including the people that she killed, but she's going to be a brave little soldier and carry on.  And Tyreese, who actually is one of Carol's victims is looked down on because he doesn't want to talk about the murder of someone he cares about with the killer.  Why should Tyreese spend any time trying to make Carol feel better?  If he would rather spend time with the baby than kill, why shouldn't he leave the killing to Carol?  She's good at it. 

 

I think Sasha is definitely someone who takes the initiative.  Even when Bob was dying, she was willing to leave his side in order to take care of business.  And there wasn't a lot of drama about 'look how brave and strong I am, leaving my dying boyfriend to go kill people'.  She just did it.  And when Bob died, and she was devastated, she still pulled out her knife right away to do what she had to do.  Mercifully, Tyreese was there for her. 

 

I think Michonne is reactive because she doesn't need to be the initiator.  Other people have that role.  I don't think she's incapable of taking the initiative.  We've seen her do it on several occasions and she managed to keep herself and Andrea alive for quite some time.  I think that one of the choices she made when she decided to stay with the prison crew, was that she was going to take a back seat while she was with them.  If she feels the need to do something, she usually just goes off on her own and does it.

 

I think that the writers have spent so much time and energy on Carol and Beth this season they've forgotten most of the other women in the cast. Shit, most of the other PEOPLE in the cast. Sunday's episode is a good example.  Neither Carol or Beth were remotely involved in the plot, and suddenly Tara and Rosita were able to come out and play.  I still don't care much for either character, but I have to admit they grew by leaps and bounds on Sunday.  Poor Maggie was left to wilt on the vine because it appears that the writers have BIG THINGS planned for Maggie and don't seem to care if she treads water until then.

[Pete Martell]

Actually now that I think of if any female character is sucking screentime its Carol It wouldn't be so bad if she moving forward but its all the same old "I killed people and I'm sad" schitck. I'm not saying the character should be fine but the viewers have been watching this for a year and it would nice to get a break. In addition to being repetitive Carol's story really hasn't been about Carol since The Grove. At least Beth story was about Beth. Carol's whole story has been about how what she did effected the men in her life. Would it have killed tptb to have Carol face what she did and talk to Maggie or even the whole group instead of having Tyrese have to deal with the consequneces of what Carol did again. I'm worried about next week for this reason. I've given up on Carol saying "I killed people and I was wrong" I just hope next week isn't her  lecturing Daryl on how believing Beth is alive is somehow "weak".

 

I feel like Carol's story is still mostly about her, with Tyreese being used to sort of attempt to remind us we should forgive her and understand her struggle. I felt like most of her scenes in "Strangers" were about her struggle.

 

I also agree with you that her plans weren't thought through, especially Karen and David. The reason it seems like a departure to me is that she wasn't really damned for those in the narrative. They could have said, for instance, that she lost Lizzie and Mika because of her lies and being so cold and wanting to teach them to fight and kill. They didn't do that.

[editorgrrl]

After reading this post in the Beth thread, I need to rewatch "Days Gone Bye" (season 1, episode 1). According to AMC, it's airing Tuesday, December 30, 9–10:30 a.m.

The argument about whether Beth's death is sexist is an interesting one, and obviously a touchy one.  My take is, sexism is real, as is racism, and yes art and fiction can reflect that... especially film and television, which behind the scenes is dominated by white males.  But the individual viewer has a role here as well.  Some people do have the tendency to watch everything through a political prism, where every female character, or every minority character, becomes a representative of that sex or race.  It's an understandable tendency because gender and race tend to not be proportionately well represented... it's not necessarily a question of numbers with gender, but certainly with the type of roles, there is an issue.  But yet, if a white male character is weak, flawed, or bad, it's generally not regarded as a race or gender issue.  And some characters are weak, flawed and bad.  Should white male characters be freer to have flaws than other characters because those characters do not need to be held up as representatives of their race or gender?  I'd like to see it move past the point where a character who is not a white male has to be defined by their race or gender.  And I say that while acknowledging there remain race and gender issues in the media.

 

Beth was a weak character both in terms of the character's personality, and how the character was developed, but I'd say the latter was more an issue of bad writing than sexism.  But she could have been a better written character, and still be weak and immature, because that's how some people are, even teenage girls.  This show does have other female characters.... Carol, Michonne, Maggie, etc. all of whom have different attributes and nuances.

 

None of this is to say that sexism is always in the eye of the beholder.  This show opened with a strange scene of Rick and Shane discussing their differing viewpoints about how women are different from men.  I rewatched the pilot, which is still one of my favorite episodes of the series, after having watched the series for a while, and I was struck by how clunky that scene was and how it didn't seem to fit with the show.  At that point, when you have characters having a conversation like that, they are obviously inviting a discussion about gender roles and bringing that into the show.  But it does seem wherever Daranbont wanted to go with that has been long since ditched. 

Edited December 5, 2014 by editorgrrl

[Pete Martell]

Other than Andrea, all the women in Darabont's TWD were there to move the stories of the men. 

 

I do wonder if he would have done a better job with Andrea than Mazzarra did. I can't say the way he handled the suicide storyline won me over (it was treated as a petty squabble between Dale and Andrea, and her self-empowerment arc felt more like her kidding herself than her actually becoming empowered), but he was only there for a few episodes of season 2. 

[RainOnToosdays]

I'm completely flummoxed by what I've been reading here and in the Beth and Coda threads. I've always thought TWD has done an exceptional job at giving us strong female characters (probably to attract and keep women viewers in the fan base). After Coda I thought they might even being going a bit too far with it.

 

There's Michonne of course who we all know now as a super-human ass-kicker who needs rely on noone, she's a woman who can take care of herself, no doubts about it. Even her back story shows that - while the two males she was with hung back at camp to watch the kid (and get high, apparently), she, the woman, was the one to go out on a supply run.

 

Carol. So she started out as a mousy, abused wife. So what? There are more women then I would like to think about who are just like Carol IRL, in the same type situation. And look what they did for Carol .. it may have been a man who beat the sh-- out of a living Ed but they gave Carol her revenge too, in beating the sh__ out of his dead body. And it was Carol they had save the entire gang from a certain ugly death. The chose a female character to be the hero, not Rick or Daryl or the hulking Tyrese (who they left behind as a baby-siiter!) or the hulking Abraham (who they had be stupid enough to walk right into a trap despite his military training).  A phyically small middle aged woman - thats who they chose as the hero who saved them all.

 

There's Maggie, who is crazy head-strong, bound and determined to do what she wants and always succeeding at it. The episode where everything goes to hell at the prison and Glen is on the verge of dying, she was amazing in that. She gets a lot of grief for her non-reacton over Beth but I admire her for that episode.  She made her way, kicking and shooting and slaying, into the isolation ward to get to the two men she loved most, Glen and Herschel. Unstoppable, Undeterred. She took a hell of a risky shot and killed the walker that Herschel was struggling with, saving his life and letting him get the intubation mask thingy that they in turn used to save Glen's life. And when they got to Glen, and she saw her man suffering and on the verge of death, she still kept her cool and did what was needed instead of freaking out and fainting or something. And the next day, she insisted Glen stay on the bus while she herself went off to find her sister. This is no damsel-in-distress story with a knight-in-shiny-armor making his way thru hell and highwater to save her.. Quite the opposite ... They made the female the hero here, going the mile to save both her father and her husband!

 

And then there's Dawn. A female cop, in the leader position. Who we also got to see in hand-to-hand combat with O'Donnel, a MALE, wherein she put quite a hurting on him, she had some moves. Did you see that high spin-kick to his chest? Dam. She didn't get dropped with one punch, wasn't left slumped against a wall crying after the first thunk. They gave her a darn good fight. Against a man. Who she whupped up on. And after Dawn is shot what happens? Yes, that's right, it's another FEMALE cop who they have step up and take charge. Shepard is the one who says "stand down" and the others do, with out question. And those others were four MALE cops, and interestingly enough, one woman cop,too.  

 

And don't forget Lizzie and Mica. Seems Tyrese gets all the credit for saving baby Judith at the prison but if I recall correctly it was Lizzie and Mica who were carrying her out when they ran into a bumbling Tyrese and saved his life by shooting the lady who was coming at him - Tara's girlfriend I think it was. Two little girls saved the hulking big dude and the baby! Who thanked them by leaving them alone in the woods with the baby! And then who came by ans saved them?  A woman. 

 

I don't mean for the above to be character analysis' or to endorse for (or rant against) any particular plot lines, just giving them as examples of TWD doing a good job at not being sexist. Not against women anyways, LOL. 

 

 

 

 

[GreyBunny]

RainOnToosdays, I agree.  Maggie, Carol, Sasha, Michonne, Rosita, Tara...all women who are getting stuff done.  Meanwhile it's Eugene, Father Gabriel, and Tyreese who are the "damsels in distress."  If anything, I think TWD has done well inverting some outdated tropes and giving women strong and proactive roles. 

[Pete Martell]

I may be wrong, but I don't think we saw Judith at that point, as Lizzie and Mika were both focused on the gun battles. I think Lizzie told one of the boys to go get the other kids. Then we saw the bloody baby carrier to try to fake us out. 

 

Not that this really has to do with your main point.

[RainOnToosdays]

I may be wrong, but I don't think we saw Judith at that point, as Lizzie and Mika were both focused on the gun battles. I think Lizzie told one of the boys to go get the other kids. Then we saw the bloody baby carrier to try to fake us out. 

 

All I could find was this video montage from the episode

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGoHRPXzkfs

 

and this pic

 

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20131210222054/walkingdead/images/3/3a/Too_far_gone_judith.png

 

That's Mica and an unknown girl (in the suspenders)  carrying her out of the prison but in the vid, Mica, Lizzie, Suspender-girl, and a boy are standing together when Lizzie & Mica fire on Tara's girlfriend and I don't see the baby. So now I am confused. Did they exit the building with the baby and then set her down or hand her off to someone before saving Tyrese? I don't know, obviously my memory isn't trustyworthy here. 

Edited December 9, 2014 by RainOnToosdays

[ghoulina]

That part was always very hazy, and I think it was intentionally hazy. So we would all be left wondering the fate of Judith during the break. But my best guess is that all four kids came out with the baby, ready to get on the bus. When Lizzie saw what was going on, she wanted to help. Perhaps the little boy and other little girl kept walking with Judith. Maybe they all put her down out of the way, while Lizzie and Mika went and got guns. Then Lizzie shot the chick that was after Ty, and they ran back to get the baby. Because, remember, Tyrese says, "We go this way!", but the girls are running in the other way. So they must have been going toward wherever they had left Judith. No idea what happened to the other two kids, though. 

 

And Judith is one of the most badass chicks on this show. I definitely don't think the writers have done a disservice to women overall. 

[nodorothyparker]

I've been following an ongoing discussion on another board trying to rate the best male and then female characters.  I find it pretty telling that almost no one there has had much of anything good to say about any of the males except Rick and Daryl, complaining that the rest were too underused or underwritten or too weak or what have you.  The female bench in contrast is currently so deep that people can come up with any number of combinations of women they like and why.  Even newbies like Rosita and Tara have been given real facets of personality and usefulness to make it possible to believe them contributors to the group's survival.  First stringers like Michonne and Carol and Maggie can easily hold their own with the men while we now have two males who can't and a third who seemingly won't defend themselves or anyone else.

 

It's definitely a far cry from season two where we saw the two undisputed female leads nearly get into a slap fight over shirking the "women's work" of dishes and laundry to want to engage in such trivialities as trying not to get killed.

[SevenStars]

The writers really did a number on Andrea because my little brother start watching TWD from the start. Yesterday he was telling me how happy he was that Andrea survive in the farm attack and how much he likes her. Today, after a few more episodes, he called me to tell me how much he hated her and hope she dies soon, lol. All of this because of how she reacted toward the Governor and he feels like she betrayed Michonne. 

[editorgrrl]

Even newbies like Rosita and Tara have been given real facets of personality and usefulness to make it possible to believe them contributors to the group's survival. First stringers like Michonne and Carol and Maggie can easily hold their own with the men while we now have two males who can't and a third who seemingly won't defend themselves or anyone else.

The useless characters right now are Eugene, Father Gabriel & Noah. Rick is Judith's primary caregiver, ably assisted by Carl. Michonne decided the group was going to Alexandria.

Who deserves the credit? Scott Gimple?

[ghoulina]

The writers really did a number on Andrea because my little brother start watching TWD from the start. Yesterday he was telling me how happy he was that Andrea survive in the farm attack and how much he likes her. Today, after a few more episodes, he called me to tell me how much he hated her and hope she dies soon, lol. All of this because of how she reacted toward the Governor and he feels like she betrayed Michonne.

 

I'm sure this goes both ways, but there are plenty of people who didn't like Andrea before season 3 and The Guv. I couldn't stand her from the moment she pointed her gun in Rick's face in Guts. I just got my mother into the show last Oct, and when we watched that scene she said, "Who is this chick? I do NOT like her". And that never changed. Andrea, to me, just always seemed hell bent on proving she could do anything and everything, no matter the cost. Hence Daryl almost dying because SHE had to be the one to take down a walker. 

 

In fact, the ONLY time I did like her was when she was running for her life after the farm massacre. That was a very pure moment of strength. No one around to impress or prove wrong, but she wouldn't lay down and die. I was kind of rooting for her for half a minute. But then season 3 started and she was back to annoying the crap out of me. 

[mandolin]

I re watched that ep yesterday, where Andrea shoots Daryl. Ugh! I think it's the character AND the actress, but I just want to punch her! Her facial expressions. Ugh again.

I feel the same re: Lori. Her line readings are pure awful IMO. Only time they were on point was her death scene.

[kikismom]

 Andrea, to me, just always seemed hell bent on proving she could do anything and everything, no matter the cost. Hence Daryl almost dying because SHE had to be the one to take down a walker. 

 

There's a moment when Andrea tells Shane that he had worth to offer the group "but your presentation sucks."

To me, that was one of the times we see so often on this show with a character who has a complete lack of self-awareness.

Or, if you like, is just a hypocrite.

I never know for sure if we are supposed to pick up on that; or if the writers didn't intend it at all and just screwed up.

 

Andrea was a lawyer, supposedly a civil rights lawyer before the ZA. That's nice, but the courtroom is gone and still she reflexively had to argue every case, every decision. Her presentation was as bad as Shane's; even when she had a good point she shot herself in the foot with her strident haranguing.

But when Herschel comes out and says Rick I need you to help me and Andrea goes Sure we be glad to, whatever you need!  and Herschel actually had to point out that he only wanted Rick, not her, I laughed out loud.

[mandolin]

I watched that scene today, where Hershel only wants Rick. It actually surprises me every time that Andrea doesn't pitch a fit. But, but! I can help! I know how the safety works!

[ghoulina]

There's a moment when Andrea tells Shane that he had worth to offer the group "but your presentation sucks."

To me, that was one of the times we see so often on this show with a character who has a complete lack of self-awareness.

 

Shane was dead-on-balls accurate when he told her that. Too bad she didn't heed his advice. This group, and Rick in particular, has never seemed like a sexist group. I mean, I don't think Rick would have actually said, "No, you can't learn to use a gun or go out on runs, just go do some laundry or something". So yea, there wasn't really a problem with what Andrea wanted to do, but it was how she went about it. Being able to be "equal" with everyone outweighed the overall welfare of the group in the end. 

[nodorothyparker]

I don't know.  Catching What Lies Ahead (first episode of season two) during the recent marathon before the start of this half season, I couldn't stop cringing when Dale and Shane doubleteamed Andrea to talk down to her like a child about why she shouldn't be allowed to have her own gun.  And there were Rick, Daryl, and Glenn all standing around passively watching this.  I guess it had been awhile since I'd seen the episode because while I do remember that the pretext was that she just so weak and suicidal that as a grown adult she couldn't possibly be trusted, it really bugged in a way that made me think less of all of them and the show in general.  How far we've come since then.

 

Andrea could be really grating at times in season two and sometimes seemed like she was trying waaaay too hard, but she was fighting an uphill battle on all fronts where the men generally seemed to view her as less competent than the male child and the other female lead considered it acceptable to bitch her out for not doing laundry and having the audacity to not want to leave trivialities like wanting to be able to keep herself and her friends alive to the menfolk.

[kikismom]

Shane was dead-on-balls accurate when he told her that. Too bad she didn't heed his advice. This group, and Rick in particular, has never seemed like a sexist group. I mean, I don't think Rick would have actually said, "No, you can't learn to use a gun or go out on runs, just go do some laundry or something". So yea, there wasn't really a problem with what Andrea wanted to do, but it was how she went about it. Being able to be "equal" with everyone outweighed the overall welfare of the group in the end. 

It was Andrea who told Shane that. Hence the lack of self-awareness.

[kikismom]

... having the audacity to not want to leave trivialities like wanting to be able to keep herself and her friends alive to the menfolk.

I admit there are times---like the episode you mentioned, or while searching for Sophia, or when they returned and searched the Vatos compound---that I keep hearing Burl Ives in my head saying it was getting worse and it was time to get the womenfolk back to Christmastown.

[kj4ever]

I normally don't blame an actor when I hate a character because it is usually the writing, but I have hated every character i have ever seen Laurie play.

[nodorothyparker]

I admit there are times---like the episode you mentioned, or while searching for Sophia, or when they returned and searched the Vatos compound---that I keep hearing Burl Ives in my head saying it was getting worse and it was time to get the womenfolk back to Christmastown.

 

Yep.  That's one reason why I have a soft spot for Andrea, even though she really got on my nerves at times too.  And why I'm as defensive of early season Carol as I am.  Hell, I'll even defend now dead Beth, even though I never much cared for her.  No female character could have come out of those first two seasons looking good.  The writing was across the board terrible for all of them and nobody ever batted an eye about any of it.  It's much easier for a Sasha or Michonne to be awesome to be out of the gate when they were never saddled with writing that portrayed them as too weak or squeamish to learn how to use a gun and they didn't have time for it anyway because they had cooking and cleaning to do.

Edited February 28, 2015 by nodorothyparker

[kikismom]

Yep.  That's one reason why I have a soft spot for Andrea, even though she really got on my nerves at times too.  And why I'm as defensive of early season Carol as I am.  Hell, I'll even defend now dead Beth, even though I never much cared for her.  No female character could have come out of those first two seasons looking good.  The writing was across the board terrible for all of them and nobody ever batted an eye about any of it.  It's much easier for a Sasha or Michonne to be awesome to be out of the gate when they were never saddled with writing that portrayed them as too weak or squeamish to learn how to use a gun and they didn't have time for it anyway because they had cooking and cleaning to do.

I'll agree, except for the hip-slinging part. I don't think that was written, I think it's Laurie Holden. It got on my nerves so bad.

 

Some of the actors affected little mannerisms: Shane's head rubbing, Rick's eye-fucking, and Lori's holding each sliver of food up to examine turning it like it's a piece of stained glass (she even did it in the prison yard the night they broke in with her Kudzu chip or horseapple or whatever they were eating)

. When you watch marathons these things really stand out.

[Caelicola]

It's somehow the little things that strike me the most, the almost unconsequential stuff, often in the background, that I think speaks to a more respectful, more nuanced view of women in seasons 4-5 when compared to 1 through 3. It's not perfect, not by a long shot, but when compared to most other stuff on tv, even stuff that I loved dearly and objectively found qualitatively superior, it's a hell of a lot better.

For instance, speaking of little things, Michonne and Maggie hugging warmly in 5x08, or Michonne and Carol clutching each other's arms under the rain in 5x10, or in the same episode Tara and Rosita laughing together; just little moments of women being with other women, as close, affectionate friends.

On a bigger scale, up until the end of season three, it was always -always- a woman holding the idiot ball, being the one who screws up for everyone (in silly, emotional ways, not in the heroically misguided way that men were allowed to screw up), being the butt of the joke; in seasons 4-5, I recall a much more even sharing of the idiot ball, with even a prevalence of male characters making dumb, emotional mistakes.

It may seem like a low bar, and it kinda is, but it's already better than a lot of other shows.

TWD has a decent number of women; I'd say two of them are very well developed (Michonne and Carol), two are as developed as any second tier character (Maggie and Sasha), two are third tier characters, barely developed, but with still glimpses of personality and flaws (Tara and Rosita).

The way I see it, TWD had big, big issues with its representation of women in its first three seasons; they course corrected, and now it's better. Still not as good as it could be, obviously, and I don't know if they intend to fix that or if they think now it's alright. The main problem they have now is that when a woman isn't in the very center of the narrative she tends to be completely invisible. But recently I'd say that has also been true for the men, with so many characters to juggle. When fan-favourite Daryl Dixon only really gets two lines in an episode, I don't feel so slighted that Sasha gets the same.

So, to answer the question in the thread title: neither, really, as these women tend to curbstomp walkers, and the writers are trying, I think. Fans are somewhat of a threat (not all fans, obviously), and the general climate of media is the biggest one.

[Caelicola]

Aaargh, I don't know what happened...double posted, for your pleasure!

Edited February 28, 2015 by Caelicola

[editorgrrl]

Up until the end of season three, it was always—always—a woman holding the idiot ball, being the one who screws up for everyone (in silly, emotional ways, not in the heroically misguided way that men were allowed to screw up), being the butt of the joke; in seasons 4-5, I recall a much more even sharing of the idiot ball, with even a prevalence of male characters making dumb, emotional mistakes.

It may seem like a low bar, and it kinda is, but it's already better than a lot of other shows.

The way I see it, TWD had big, big issues with its representation of women in its first three seasons; they course corrected, and now it's better. Still not as good as it could be, obviously, and I don't know if they intend to fix that or if they think now it's alright.

I absolutely agree—the women of The Walking Dead have gotten way less stupid. Does anyone have any theories as to why—other than the fact that Scott Gimple took over as showrunner?

Edited February 28, 2015 by editorgrrl

[nodorothyparker]

It's somehow the little things that strike me the most, the almost unconsequential stuff, often in the background, that I think speaks to a more respectful, more nuanced view of women in seasons 4-5 when compared to 1 through 3. It's not perfect, not by a long shot, but when compared to most other stuff on tv, even stuff that I loved dearly and objectively found qualitatively superior, it's a hell of a lot better.

For instance, speaking of little things, Michonne and Maggie hugging warmly in 5x08, or Michonne and Carol clutching each other's arms under the rain in 5x10, or in the same episode Tara and Rosita laughing together; just little moments of women being with other women, as close, affectionate friends.

 

I've been noticing this too and really appreciating these small things.  The past two episodes have seen the women doing a lot of the support work both for each other and for the men in addition to their more front and center badass zombie killer moments.  I've seen much be made over Michonne taking Rick's hand, or Carol hugging Rick or stroking Daryl's hair, but equally important to me is Carol and Michonne hugging and touching each other's arms in the background in each of the past two episodes.  There's a relationship happening there between the two best developed women on the show even if we're not seeing a lot of it.  Throw in the continued Maggie-Sasha pairing that I really love and the little Rosita-Tara moments that manage to feel very natural even if the latter pair aren't at all that well developed and it makes me feel like Scott Gimple gets it.  Because yes, the women have fared so much better since he's taken over as showrunner.

Edited February 28, 2015 by nodorothyparker

[Pandora]

I absolutely agree—the women of The Walking Dead have gotten way less stupid. Does anyone have any theories as to why—other than the fact that Scott Gimple took over as showrunner?

 

I would like to think (probably delusionally) that fan feedback made them aware their female characters were not portraying what was intended by tptb. When speaking about their characters both Sarah Wayne Calles and Laurie Holden sounded almost as delusional as I am right now. For instance I think the show was going for the Flawed but Heroic arc for Andrea and it really didn't play out that way onscreen IMHO. It probably upset some people, particularly the comic fans who were expecting something different for her character.

[RedheadZombie]

I do think they are cognizant of portraying the women as competent and strong these days.  Even something small, such as checking out the barn a couple of episodes ago.  Rick entered first (of course), but who was right behind him?  Not his right hand man, Daryl, or macho Abraham.  It was Carol.  I took that as a sign that Rick once again trusts Carol implicitly, and has faith in her fighting ability.

[Caelicola]

To give them credit where credit's due, they genderswapped Douglas Monroe into Deanna Monroe, and I couldn't be happier about it (not exclusively because it gave us Tovah Feldshuh, but that's a factor too); I also think Carol's storyline is a brilliant bit of subversion and a clever play on stereotype, and it made me realize just how unique a character like Carol truly is. I can't recall any other piece of media having one of its most fearsome, ruthless action heroes be a petite, unassuming-looking middle-aged woman. I love Michonne dearly, and she's up there on the same level as Carol as far as favourite characters go, for me, but Michonne looks like an action hero, and looking at her arms and shoulders would make me cower from her before I'd cower from quite a few of the men; Maggie, Sasha and Rosita have a certain "tough chick" thing going on, and even Tara, to an extent.

Carol looks fragile, and sweet, and like she'd need someone to protect her, but ends up kicking more ass than all the four younger girls combined.

A lot of media has the "den mother" figure; I honestly can't think of one in which the den mother is also Rambo.

[AngelaHunter]

I can't recall any other piece of media having one of its most fearsome, ruthless action heroes be a petite, unassuming-looking middle-aged woman.

 

It's never happened. One actress (I wish I could remember who) said that there are three major roles only for women actors: The Babe, The District Attorney, and Driving Miss Daisy.

[Pete Martell]

I'm so disappointed in everything with Jessie. She feels like a horrible regression to the way women were written in the first 2-3 seasons. She is a paper-thin extension of a man (or men), she's rushed into an OOC, forced relationship that is pushed on the show and on Talking Dead as being a super-duper-magical-mystical connection. She has no purpose or inner life and was whipped out of thin air solely because the show thought it was time for Rick to get a leg over. It's like they could have just brought in a paper bag with a blonde wig glued on top and it would have served the same purpose.

 

So let down right now. 

[Pete Martell]

The other thing that bothers me with this is that to me Jessie looked somewhat uncomfortable when Rick got in her space and kissed her. Yes, she smiled a bit, but here is this authority figure kissing on her out of nowhere and staring at her like he's going to conduct a ceremony right there and then. If I didn't watch Talking Dead, I would have no idea that I was actually supposed to be cheering for this relationship. I would think this was a frightened woman, possibly already in one bad relationship, who knows how to put on a good face for men who treat her like cattle.

 

I felt uncomfortable, deeply uncomfortable, with that entire "connection" scene, and with his lips on her. I wanted her to run away. 

 

I'm genuinely shocked if a scene like that is seen as a romantic bond by TPTB. And I don't know what it says about their view of women.

[tennisgurl]

Jessie is like an even lamer version of Lori. As many issues as I had with Lori, she at least had moments of being interesting, and her and Rick had a whole history. This Jessie person? Wow is she boring. After all the strides they have made with the way they have written women on this show, we get stuck with HER as Ricks new love interest? Come ON.

[BrokenRemote]

Well, I'm personally going to give Jessie more than 15 minutes of screen time before I write her off as anything.  

[Pete Martell]

If the story becomes about Jessie being repulsed by increasingly psycho Rick and getting away from him (and her husband), then I think I could be interested in her.

 

If it's about the Rickbow Connection...I can't.

[vibeology]

Nothing against AB who has done the most with the very little she's been given but Jessie isn't a character as much as she is a prop for Rick. We know a few facts about her and have speculated a few other things about her (because I've seen people talk about her bad marriage but we don't know if that's true.) I need more time to get to know her before I care. The flaw of the half season thing is there just isn't time for a storyline to develop. I think it's very bad planning on the show's part and it sucks that at the end of it, it's another female character who loses out from the bad choices by the producers and writers.

[Nashville]

Well, I'm personally going to give Jessie more than 15 minutes of screen time before I write her off as anything.

Hell yeah. Lori had two seasons to develop our hate. Jessie has had two episodes, and barely enough screen time in those to qualify for Major Player status. Me, I'd be loving it if the writers didn't have any intention whatsoever to develop a romantic relationship between Jessie and Rick, but were keeping their mouths shut purely for the entertainment of watching the shippers go all explodey.

[BrokenRemote]

Nothing against AB who has done the most with the very little she's been given but Jessie isn't a character as much as she is a prop for Rick. We know a few facts about her and have speculated a few other things about her (because I've seen people talk about her bad marriage but we don't know if that's true.) I need more time to get to know her before I care. The flaw of the half season thing is there just isn't time for a storyline to develop. I think it's very bad planning on the show's part and it sucks that at the end of it, it's another female character who loses out from the bad choices by the producers and writers.

Yeah, but how is she a prop for Rick when we have, and he has, seen her three whole times for a sum of a few minutes? And when they are nothing more than friendly aquaintances?

I can see fearing she might become a prop, but at this point there's nothing to be propped.