Sansa Stark: A Direwolf In Sheep's Clothing?

[Drogo]

23 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Oh I think Sansa is definitely frightened for Jon.  She says that thing about all of the men in her family dying whenever the head south, and they have obviously bonded.

She didn't seem too frightened for Jon's life when he was in the middle of a swarm of enemies and she was smiling smugly next to Littlefinger as the Vale showed up, to her expectation and to his shock.

Sansa only gives a shit about Jon's life when there's more than just him sitting between her and the North.  

[Meredith Quill]

6 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I know you don't think Sansa cares about Jon, or has bonded with him, but I do.

No, I didn't state that she doesn't doesn't care about him at all or there's no bond at all. I said I don't 100% buy it, not that I don't buy it at all. I even said I believe there is some familial love. The difference we have is one of intensity not existence. 

6 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I think her fear about him dying was quite real, and sadly and worriedly expressed.  I DO think that is why she told Tyrion, Jon is besotted and not thinking clearly.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying I see it from a different perspective and for a different motivation. Right now, neither of us can assert we're 100% correct without more evidence.

6 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Dany and her many titles is what I mean.  Girl has a history!  😉  She didn't get there handing out cotton candy and wine.  Sansa knows what power costs.  Her entire journey has been about learning about power, the costs, the methods, the horrors, all of it.

Pity she didn't speak with her all-seeing brother to get some context/backstory too, heh.

[Umbelina]

11 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

Pity she didn't speak with her all-seeing brother to get some context/backstory too, heh.

That may have frighted her more!  😉 

I agree, we are all guessing here while using clues from the show. 

It's odd in some ways how my feelings about Sansa have evolved, I wonder if that will happen in the books as well.  Probably so, but I doubt it's with Ramsey's influence.  In the beginning she was one of my most despised characters, but her character arc has been so interesting to me, and now I like her.

As I said before, but I will modify.  Now she's become much more like her mother, and her father, only she's learned, she's not naive or trusting, she thinks about everything.  She grew up into a formidable woman, from very doubtful beginnings.  Ned was a fool though, and trusting, naive like Jon.  Sansa is neither naive, trusting, or a fool.

ETA

I don't think she's brilliant, far from it.  She earned her intelligence, one mistake after another, one horror after another.  As I said earlier, she's like a mountain goat, carefully and slowly ascending a rocky mountain.  She even says "I'm not quick."  In astrology, she'd be a Capricorn.  Ha.  For most of the show she kept stumbling and falling, now, she's sure footed, and extremely careful.

Edited May 12, 2019 by Umbelina
clarity

[screamin]

45 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

We disagree about Sansa's motives, if she's frightened for Jon imo it's only because it would impact her own position, not out of some altruistic fear for Jon's personal longevity. She has her own agenda and she is serving it. I doubt she cared a fig about his well-being when he was at Castle Black and now she cares only because his death possibly could/would negatively affect her status.

Well, that's a matter of opinion. I do think she does love Jon. I don't think that if she cares about her own position it MUST mean that she has NO altruistic feelings for Jon. It can be 'both', not 'either-or.'

As for whether she cared about his well-being at Castle Black, there's some evidence that she does in the books even in her most self-centered coddled little-girl phase at the beginning of the series. How much more so would she be now that she's learned to value her relationship with him as her brother? (no, I don't think we're going to get a revelation of her secret love for Jon either. If expression-reading Arya caught that look on Sansa's face even for a milisecond she'd have been all "Holy shit gross how COULD you!?" instead of backing Sansa up against Dany.)

[Meredith Quill]

2 minutes ago, screamin said:

Well, that's a matter of opinion. I do think she does love Jon. I don't think that if she cares about her own position it MUST mean that she has NO altruistic feelings for Jon. It can be 'both', not 'either-or.'

As for whether she cared about his well-being at Castle Black, there's some evidence that she does in the books even in her most self-centered coddled little-girl phase at the beginning of the series. How much more so would she be now that she's learned to value her relationship with him as her brother? (no, I don't think we're going to get a revelation of her secret love for Jon either. If expression-reading Arya caught that look on Sansa's face even for a milisecond she'd have been all "Holy shit gross how COULD you!?" instead of backing Sansa up against Dany.)

Rather than repeat myself, I'll just link my post here, which covers my opinion on this. And yes, totally agree this is a matter of opinion, they are all we have without more evidence.

[Heathrowe]

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Umbelina said:

As I said before, but I will modify.  Now she's become much more like her mother, and her father, only she's learned, she's not naive or trusting, she thinks about everything.  She grew up into a formidable woman, from very doubtful beginnings.  Ned was a fool though, and trusting, naive like Jon.  Sansa is neither naive, trusting, or a fool.

Well, as far as I'm concerned,it is clear that Sansa was right to undermine Dany now that we've seen Episode 5. Will be interesting to see what Danaerys does with her in the finale. Will she go after everyone who knows about Jon's parentage? Will she go after Jon himself? 

[Umbelina]

Yeah her instincts about Dany have proven accurate. 

I think it was more that she didn't trust ANYONE who wanted to rule Westeros though, because she has seen the rulers up close and personal.

[ursula]

On 5/11/2019 at 2:47 PM, Indi said:

She has the right to want and try to do all that. She even could have done all that without any legitimacy to the throne. Isn't that how her ancestors got to the throne in the first place? By destroying the legitimate king and usurping the throne? What I'm saying is that she is delusional if she expected no resistance. 

The Targaryens didn't destroy the legitimate King. There was no King in Westeros before the Targaryens. They literally built the Iron Throne, and the Red Keep. 

If you're looking for the family in Westeros that destroyed legitimate Kings, usurped thrones, stole land and committed mass genocide of indigenous people, wiped out bloodlines, murdered their enemies and raped their daughters, then you should be looking at the Starks:

Quote

Song and story tell us that the Starks of Winterfell have ruled large portions of the lands beyond the Neck for eight thousand years, styling themselves the Kings of Winter (the more ancient usage) and (in more recent centuries) the Kings in the North. Their rule was not an uncontested one. Many were the wars in which the Starks expanded their rule or were forced to win back lands that rebels had carved away. […]

Ancient ballads, amongst the oldest to be found in the archives of the Citadel of Oldtown, tell of how one King of Winter drove the giants from the North, whilst another felled the skinchanger Gaven Greywolf and his kin in “the savage War of the Wolves” […]

Amongst the houses reduced from royals to vassals we can count the Flints of Breakstone Hill, the Slates of Blackpool, the Umbers of Last Hearth, the Lockes of Oldcastle, the Glovers of Deepwood Motte, the Fishers of the Stony Shore, the Ryders of the Rills…and mayhaps even the Blackwoods of Raventree, whose own family traditions insist they once ruled most of the wolfswood before being driven from their lands by the Kings of Winter.

Even this did not give Winterfell dominion over all the North. Many other petty kings remained, ruling over realms great and small, and it would require thousands of years and many more wars before the last of them was conquered. Yet one by one, the Starks subdued them all, and during these struggles, many proud houses and ancient lines were extinguished forever.

Chronicles found in the archives of the Night’s Watch at the Nightfort (before it was abandoned) speak of the war for Sea Dragon Point, wherein the Starks brought down the Warg King and his inhuman allies, the children of the forest. When the Warg King’s last redoubt fell, his sons were put to the sword, along with his beasts and greenseers, whilst his daughters were taken as prizes by their conquerors.

---AWOIAF

Considering Stark history of conquest and terrorism in the North, it does provide context for Sansa Stark's determination to reclaim Westeros and her insistence on Stark Supremacy in the North (wrapped in the package of Northern Independence). 

Edited May 13, 2019 by ursula

[Umbelina]

Just like Bronn said, all the great houses started with great murderers and fighters...just like him.

[GraceK]

27 minutes ago, ursula said:

The Targaryens didn't destroy the legitimate King. There was no King in Westeros before the Targaryens. They literally built the Iron Throne, and the Red Keep. 

If you're looking for the family in Westeros that destroyed legitimate Kings, usurped thrones, stole land and committed mass genocide of indigenous people, wiped out bloodlines, murdered their enemies and raped their daughters, then you should be looking at the Starks:

---AWOIAF

Considering Stark history of conquest and terrorism in the North, it does provide context for Sansa Stark's determination to reclaim Westeros and her insistence on Stark Supremacy in the North (wrapped in the package of Northern Independence). 

Oh snap 🤣You mean... the Starks aren’t the noblest of noble hero’s? They weren’t born from The purest of driven snow? 😮

Edited May 13, 2019 by GraceK

[merrick715]

46 minutes ago, ursula said:

Considering Stark history of conquest and terrorism in the North, it does provide context for Sansa Stark's determination to reclaim Westeros and her insistence on Stark Supremacy in the North (wrapped in the package of Northern Independence). 

Seriously? Do you think Sansa is going to purposefully kill thousands of Northern civilians after she hears them surrender like Dany just did? Dany heard those bells and knew what it meant, but she just didn't care.

If we're going to compare Sansa to Dany, why not look at Sansa's actions, after Winterfell was retaken. Sansa killed Ramsay, and that's it. She didn't kill Wolkan or any of the other servants that served House Bolton. She didn't blame them for not helping her, but Dany blames the civilians for not rising up against their oppressor, and Cersei is definitely their oppressor. That didn't matter to Dany at all. Missendei and Rhaegal are dead, so someone needed to pay. 

Quote

Oh snap 🤣You mean... the Starks aren’t the noblest of noble hero’s? They weren’t born from The purest of driven snow? 😮

The show is about the Westersoi one percent. It seems you were fine with this, when Dany was going to take the throne

Edited May 13, 2019 by merrick715

[GraceK]

16 minutes ago, merrick715 said:

The show is about the Westersoi one percent. It seems you were fine with this, when Dany was going to take the throne

Sure was. Still am 😊 I just don’t hold with the hypocrisy that the Starks are somehow better than the Targaryens. They aren’t. There is just as much blood, rape, conquest and death in their background. Some incest too. 

[merrick715]

 

 

 

2

7 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Sure was. Still am 😊 I just don’t hold with the hypocrisy that the Starks are somehow better than the Targaryens. They aren’t. There is just as much blood, rape, conquest and death in their background. Some incest too. 

The Starks are better than the Targaryens. They've managed to maintain their power for over eight thousand years, unlike the Targaeryns who only lasted a mere three hundred years. ')

[Umbelina]

12 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Sure was. Still am 😊 I just don’t hold with the hypocrisy that the Starks are somehow better than the Targaryens. They aren’t. There is just as much blood, rape, conquest and death in their background. Some incest too. 

So glad to see you agree with Bronn!  All nobles earned it by being better killers and fighters than others.  Those we see today are just their distant brats.

[GraceK]

@merrick715 Yes, until the Aegon Targaryen took over and cut off Tohhern Starks BALLS. 😊 conquered the North didn’t he? Made him bend the knee and reduced him to Warden of the North instead of King of Winter?  Right? The Starks raped, pillaged and ruled until someone more badass came along and stomped them down . And that’s how it remained . Even Ned Stark, didn’t ask for independence. His best friend was KING, and he bowed down and sucked dick to the Iron throne, as Warden of the North.  So what exactly is your point?  The North stopped ruling as soon as the Targs sailed in. Oh, and then the north bent over for the Bolton’s. 😂😂😂🤣 yeah. Go north??? They are literally made to be dominated apparently according to the show. Even this episode, they went right along raping, murdering and enjoying every minute of the slaughter. It was only poor pure Jon who was horrified. 🙄

Edited May 13, 2019 by GraceK

[merrick715]

44 minutes ago, GraceK said:

So what exactly is your point?  The North stopped ruling as soon as the Targs sailed in. Oh, and then the north bent over for the Bolton’s. 😂😂😂🤣 yeah. Go north??? They are literally made to be dominated apparently according to the show. Even this episode, they went right along raping, murdering and enjoying every minute of the slaughter. It was only poor pure Jon who was horrified. 🙄

 The Starks were the top family in the North before Aegon came to conquer. They remained the top family in the North for the entire Targaeryn reign. That was my sarcastic point,

I don't think that the Starks, Tullys, Tyrells, Greyjoys, Arryns, Lannisters, Baratheons, or the Martells have any kind of moral high ground. The only difference between them and House Targaeryn is the dragons. The sheer amount of destruction the Targaeryns can cause is unlike anything the other ruling families can do. Take away the dragons, and they're as grasping, greedy, and power-hungry as all the other ruling houses.

I had no problem with what Dany did in Kings Landing until she heard the bells. I do have an issue with her use of Drogon after that. I have no idea what Jon has to do with anything I said. I think Jon's dumber than a box of hair.

Edited May 13, 2019 by merrick715

[GraceK]

48 minutes ago, merrick715 said:

 The Starks were the top family in the North before Aegon came to conquer. They remained the top family in the North for the entire Targaeryn reign. That was my sarcastic point,

I don't think that the Starks, Tullys, Tyrells, Greyjoys, Arryns, Lannisters, Baratheons, or the Martells have any kind of moral high ground. The only difference between them and House Targaeryn is the dragons. The sheer amount of destruction the Targaeryns can cause is unlike anything the other ruling families can do. Take away the dragons, and they're as grasping, greedy, and power-hungry as all the other ruling houses.

I had no problem with what Dany did in Kings Landing until she heard the bells. I do have an issue with her use of Drogon after that. I have no idea what Jon has to do with anything I said. I think Jon's dumber than a box of hair.

You literally said the Starks “are better “. I was the one saying they weren't, and  in fact, was saying it was hypocritical to think anyone house is.

[BooBear]

I am sorry to say but Sansa is a traitor and needs to die. Jon being the foolish leader that he is, will kill Dany to stop this. But Sansa is a sneaky cerci clone and it would truly be better for the 7 kingdoms for her to die. If she is allowed to live she will just become another Cersi / little finger. 

[merrick715]

35 minutes ago, GraceK said:

You literally said the Starks “are better “. I was the one saying they weren't, and  in fact, was saying it was hypocritical to think anyone house is.

You also said you no problem with the show being the Westerosi version of the 1%, if Dany wins. I stan Sansa, you stan Dany, I was joking around with you about the Stark and Targaryen stuff.

Quote

But Sansa is a sneaky cerci clone and it would truly be better for the 7 kingdoms for her to die. If she is allowed to live she will just become another Cersi / little finger. 

Ah yes. Who is worse for Westeros? The woman who destroyed Kings Landing, and had no fucks to give for the people there. The same people who surrendered to Dany. Or, the woman in Winterfell who didn't just slaughter thousands of civilians, and is content to stay in the North. We should ask the people of Kings Landing, and see what they have to say. Oh wait, we can't.  Dany killed most of them.

Edited May 13, 2019 by merrick715

[Advance35]

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 We should ask the people of Kings Landing, and see what they have to say. Oh wait, we can't.  Dany killed most of them.

And we have already seen that Sansa will listen to Council.  She hates the Lannisters but allowed Jamie to live because Brienne was confident he wanted to fight for the living.  Sansa didn't like/trust him but she was willing to let him live.   

There is not a character still standing in this story that hasn't known grief, loss or despair.  The difference is Dany is willing to take it out on the common people, in MASS.

The people (who probably have know idea about the Game of Thrones nobles play) didn't love Dany (or were not a help in her bid for the Throne), so in her eyes, they were expendable.   We saw this throughout the show and last week when Sansa wanted the soldiers to rest we saw this mentality of Dany's on display again.

Sansa was right to be wary of her all along.

[dirtypop90]

Wait...are people really blaming Sansa for Dany's actions? I have to laugh. Dany made a deliberate choice to kill all those innocents because that's who she is. And frankly she always said she would take "what was hers" by fire. Though she's taking what is actually Jon's...

[VCRTracking]

[Indi]

Sansa, you're in danger, girl! 😈

[Advance35]

Quote

Sansa, you're in danger, girl! 😈

That was my thought when the episode aired.  Now that she's ruined the lives of just about everyone in Kings Landing, where will that beast and her dragon be heading next?

I hope for her sake, she's been building those dragon killing bows.   Sansa spent considerable time with Joffrey, Cersei and Ramsay.  Maybe on some level she knows a human monster when she see's it.

At least I will finally know the endgame for the Sansa Stark character.  Cleaganebowl, The end of Cersei and Jaimie, Daenerys Targaryen revealed as the toilet bug she is.  GRRM has a gift for telling stories but I am ready for answers.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Advance35

[Indi]

10 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

That was my thought when the episode aired.  Now that she's ruined the lives of just about everyone in Kings Landing, where will that beast and her dragon being heading next?

I hope for her sake, she's been building those dragon killing bows.   Sansa spent considerable time with Joffrey, Cersei and Ramsay.  Maybe on some level she knows a human monster when she see's it.

At least I will finally know the endgame for the Sansa Stark character.  Cleaganebowl, The end of Cersei and Jaimie, Daenerys Targaryen revealed as the toilet bug she is.  GRRM has a gift for telling stories but I am ready for answers.

Whether Sansa dies or not, she has been vindicated. I bet that would give her enough motivation to go to her death with intolerable levels of smugness and disrespect 🤣

[Advance35]

Quote

Whether Sansa dies or not, she has been vindicated. I bet that would give her enough motivation to go to her death with intolerable levels of smugness and disrespect 🤣

Oh I hope so.  Sansa seeing Dany for what she is and giving off the "Decorum dictates courtesies but I know you are really the dirt on my shoe" vibe, has been giving me life throughout the season.

She definitely owe's Jon an "I told you so."

The lack of remorse is one of the things that made Vary's end so compelling.  He didn't beg and didn't apologize, he looked her dead in the eye and the only thing he was sorry about, was that he wasn't able to poison her.

I wonder if one of those letters he was writing, was to Dorne.  He seemed to have an "in" with their nobility.  If the show were going further, Sunspear might be an additional point of rebellion.

[screamin]

14 hours ago, ursula said:

The Targaryens didn't destroy the legitimate King. There was no King in Westeros before the Targaryens.

Sure there were. Seven of them.

Of course the common wisdom is that the Targaryens benefitted Westeros by uniting them under a strong central government, but that to me smacks of history being written by the victors.

[ShellsandCheese]

3 hours ago, Advance35 said:

Oh I hope so.  Sansa seeing Dany for what she is and giving off the "Decorum dictates courtesies but I know you are really the dirt on my shoe" vibe, has been giving me life throughout the season.

She definitely owe's Jon an "I told you so."

The lack of remorse is one of the things that made Vary's end so compelling.  He didn't beg and didn't apologize, he looked her dead in the eye and the only thing he was sorry about, was that he wasn't able to poison her.

I wonder if one of those letters he was writing, was to Dorne.  He seemed to have an "in" with their nobility.  If the show were going further, Sunspear might be an additional point of rebellion.

Sansa didn’t see that Dany was going to unleash Drogon on King’s Landing - she cannot see the future. Sansa just didn’t like Dany because she saw Dany as a threat to Northern independence; nothing more nothing less. Personally, I want The IT gone. I think that’s the point to the story, no? As long as there’s a throne you are going to have people jockeying, backstabbing, fighting wars, and killing each other for it. Yeah you might have a few hundred years of relative stability - but it’s a matter of when not if when it comes to the next conflict. That’s why Dany needs to destroy everything, lol. 

[Umbelina]

Oh, I think Sansa saw far more than that.

She saw that obvious desire for power.  She's well aware what need for power, and a throne can do to people.  She lived it.  She lost her father to it.  She lost her wolf to it.  She lost brothers and a mother to it.

[Indi]

10 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Oh, I think Sansa saw far more than that.

She saw that obvious desire for power.  She's well aware what need for power, and a throne can do to people.  She lived it.  She lost her father to it.  She lost her wolf to it.  She lost brothers and a mother to it.

I totally agree. She saw the true face behind the mask. That doesn't mean Dany was completely dishonest. I think she believed her own hype, but it turns out it was just that: hype. A little resistance from the people she wanted to "save" and her mask fell and broke in a million pieces.

Sadly, Sansa is facing a bigger threat now. This is Cersei Squared we're talking about.

[GodsBeloved]

18 hours ago, Indi said:

Sansa, you're in danger, girl! 😈

She really is.

Where is Lady when you need her!

[GodsBeloved]

22 hours ago, Indi said:

Whether Sansa dies or not, she has been vindicated. I bet that would give her enough motivation to go to her death with intolerable levels of smugness and disrespect 🤣

Look, I will be SO down with Sansa ... burn me heffa but you still gettin' the elevator eyes 🤣

Edited May 14, 2019 by GodsBeloved

[Drogo]

I'm so happy "elevator eyes" caught on after 20 years of me being the only one using it.

[Constantinople]

14 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Oh, I think Sansa saw far more than that.

She saw that obvious desire for power.  She's well aware what need for power, and a throne can do to people.  She lived it.  She lost her father to it.  She lost her wolf to it.  She lost brothers and a mother to it.

Then why doesn't she kill herself?

It's a little convenient that if Jon's the King of the Seven Kingdoms, Sansa will be the one running the North

[Constantinople]

18 hours ago, Advance35 said:

I wonder if one of those letters he was writing, was to Dorne.  He seemed to have an "in" with their nobility.  If the show were going further, Sunspear might be an additional point of rebellion.

I'm not confident that Dorne would rally to the living embodiment of Rhaegar Targaryen's contemptuous treatment of his wife, Princess Elia of Dorne (or non-wife due to the annullment)

But with D&D, anything can happen.

[Portia4844]

2 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I'm not confident that Dorne would rally to the living embodiment of Rhaegar Targaryen's contemptuous treatment of his wife, Princess Elia of Dorne (or non-wife due to the annullment)

But with D&D, anything can happen.

Haha!  Excellent point.  Poor Dany.  She didn't understand history or she would know that Dorne wouldn't like her and wouldn't love Jon more.   

[Maximum Taco]

15 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I'm not confident that Dorne would rally to the living embodiment of Rhaegar Targaryen's contemptuous treatment of his wife, Princess Elia of Dorne (or non-wife due to the annullment)

But with D&D, anything can happen.

Well in the show the Martells are all dead, the new Prince of Dorne is not a Martell and probably from one of the other high houses. It's difficult to posit how strongly someone from House Dayne or House Yronwood would hold to a grudge for the now extinct House Martell. 

The Yronwoods from the books might hold close ties to House Martell because of their connection to Quentyn, but there is no Quentyn in the show. 

Edited May 14, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[Portia4844]

4 hours ago, Drogo said:

I'm so happy "elevator eyes" caught on after 20 years of me being the only one using it.

I'll just be happy to never see Cersei smirking and Sansa doing anything with her eyes again.  

[MarySNJ]

On 5/12/2019 at 9:29 AM, Maximum Taco said:

If Sansa is in love with Jon, yes it is explained pretty perfectly, and actually done with a good amount of subtlety which is a rarity for the show in these later seasons. I will say she does a lot of reassuring him he's her brother ("You're just as much Ned Stark's child as any of us") and that seems contrary to that conclusion. 

Jon also seems pretty squicked out by making out with Aunt Dany, would he be more ok with cousin Sansa? I know cousins are pretty widely accepted in book Westeros, for instance Tywin was married very happily to his cousin Joanna, and it's barely mentioned and never with any degree of shame attached. But Jon clearly sees the Starks as his siblings. 

Exactly. Jon not just Sansa and Arya’s biological cousin, he is also their adopted brother. I don’t see him viewing either of his sisters as anything other than siblings, or vice versa.

I doubt Sansa has a romantic interest in Jon. He’s her big brother, with whom she occasionally disagrees publicly at inconvenient times. I think she loves him like a brother but also sort of resents being sidelined in favor of him as a ruler of the North, as I’m sure many competent women do when they get passed over for a promotion. 

[MarySNJ]

19 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Oh, I think Sansa saw far more than that.

She saw that obvious desire for power.  She's well aware what need for power, and a throne can do to people.  She lived it.  She lost her father to it.  She lost her wolf to it.  She lost brothers and a mother to it.

Sansa could recognize the same ambition in Dany that she feels herself. They’re two strong women who’ve experienced similar traumas and survived and who both who want to rule their respective domains, which puts them at odds. That’s what this is about. 

Any indication that Sansa could sense that Dany would lose her mind is simply revisionist history. Up to that point Dany had put aside her own ambitions to fight with the northerners against the existential threat; as the “protector of the realm” should do. 

[sistermagpie]

5 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

Any indication that Sansa could sense that Dany would lose her mind is simply revisionist history. Up to that point Dany had put aside her own ambitions to fight with the northerners against the existential threat; as the “protector of the realm” should do. 

I don't think she's supposed to have specifically thought she would do what she just did or any specific thing. She just recognizes the ambition. It doesn't require a real special intelligence, imo, it's just she has experience with people with their eye on the IT. So she's already not trusting even before she meets her. And after that it's not like Dany does anything to contradict her initial impression. Not because she seems crazy, but just because she's exactly who she says she is herself--the rightful ruler of the 7 kingdoms etc.

Sansa just didn't have any hopes that maybe she'd turn out to be great in ways no other person seeking the IT wasn't. It would take a lot for Sansa to feel like that about someone. The very fact that she's seeking the throne is the issue.

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, MarySNJ said:

Sansa could recognize the same ambition in Dany that she feels herself. They’re two strong women who’ve experienced similar traumas and survived and who both who want to rule their respective domains, which puts them at odds. That’s what this is about. 

Any indication that Sansa could sense that Dany would lose her mind is simply revisionist history. Up to that point Dany had put aside her own ambitions to fight with the northerners against the existential threat; as the “protector of the realm” should do. 

Sure.

Sansa should just tell Dany to bend the knee to Sansa.

Dany would be thrilled to have a new girlfriend, and to hand over everything she has to that new best buddy.

ETA, they could braid each others' hair and shit, talk about guys, argue about who had the worst life,  get drunk, laugh, try a little girl on girl, and Dany could sing Sansa's many praises whenever they meet strangers, just like Missy did for her.

Edited May 14, 2019 by Umbelina

[Portia4844]

Knowing what the writers were going to do with Dany, Sansa and Arya were used to to warn Jon, Tyrion, and whoever else needed a heads-up.  It didn't have an organic feel to it.  It had the same feel as last season where there was tension created between Arya and Sansa so they could surprise us with the LF episode.  Sansa has been used to create tension with other characters to get to the ending of whatever story is being told. 

[Umbelina]

4 minutes ago, Portia4844 said:

Knowing what the writers were going to do with Dany, Sansa and Arya were used to to warn Jon, Tyrion, and whoever else needed a heads-up.  It didn't have an organic feel to it.  It had the same feel as last season where there was tension created between Arya and Sansa so they could surprise us with the LF episode.  Sansa has been used to create tension with other characters to get to the ending of whatever story is being told. 

Oh I disagree with this.

Sansa and Ayra have BOTH payed tons of dues.  They aren't in service to other characters, they had roles of their own, and it felt amazing when they finally met up again after so very long, and completely organic that they didn't trust one another at first, but were both cautious and smart enough to ferret out the truths of each other.

It's bizarre to say they are only there for Littlefinger or any other characters story.  Fully fleshed out, both with full and interesting lives of their own.

[Heathrowe]

People keep posting about Sansa's ambition.

I don't think her ambition is to be queen and sit on the Iron Throne. I think her ambition is to say in Winterfell and be in charge of her own destiny and never be manipulated, beaten, or sexually abused again. 

Her best bet for the life she wants is Jon on the throne.  I'm not sure if her crazy alarm was ringing when she met Dany or if she realized that Dany was just another person who would expect to control her. Dany will probably try to have Sansa executed next episode. The writing has been awful, but Sansa was right to identify Dany as a threat to her independence/the life she wants.

Having Jon on the Iron Throne is much safer for Sansa and that's why she spilled the beans to Tyrion, to present him as the better option.

Edited May 14, 2019 by Heathrowe

[Portia4844]

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Oh I disagree with this.

Sansa and Ayra have BOTH payed tons of dues.  They aren't in service to other characters, they had roles of their own, and it felt amazing when they finally met up again after so very long, and completely organic that they didn't trust one another at first, but were both cautious and smart enough to ferret out the truths of each other.

It's bizarre to say they are only there for Littlefinger or any other characters story.  Fully fleshed out, both with full and interesting lives of their own.

I agree.  Sansa and Arya have payed tons of dues and have grown from the young girls they were.  Sansa stopped being interesting when others had to be dumbed down to show how smart she was.  I don't have a problem with book Sansa or show Sansa growing and learning from all she's experienced.  I have a problem with the writing of her character to support whatever end result D&D were going for.  

[screamin]

50 minutes ago, Heathrowe said:

I don't think her ambition is to be queen and sit on the Iron Throne. I think her ambition is to say in Winterfell and be in charge of her own destiny and never be manipulated, beaten, or sexually abused again. 

I agree. I think she'd have been content to have Jon as king of the North, rolling her eyes when he won't take her advice.

While I don't believe she spotted signs of incipient madness in Dany, she did feel that Jon had given over WAY too much power, too quickly, to an unknown quantity. I agree that she was disrespectful to Dany, but I think it was a test that Dany didn't respond to flexibly enough to convince Sansa she was going to deal wisely with any other opposition she came across...which meant Jon was putting his and their welfare in the hands of someone who would act too impulsively - with dragons. She would reject even sensible advice coming from someone she dislikes. Hell, even Dany's confession that she had helped the North because she had fallen in love with Jon isn't really calculated to inspire trust in her longstanding goodwill to the North if things go sour with that love.

Edited May 14, 2019 by screamin

[MarySNJ]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Sure.

Sansa should just tell Dany to bend the knee to Sansa.

Dany would be thrilled to have a new girlfriend, and to hand over everything she has to that new best buddy.

ETA, they could braid each others' hair and shit, talk about guys, argue about who had the worst life,  get drunk, laugh, try a little girl on girl, and Dany could sing Sansa's many praises whenever they meet strangers, just like Missy did for her.

That’s quite a conclusion you’ve jumped to. 

Dany has expectations that she will rule over a united seven Kingdoms when she won back the Iron Throne, like her ancestors did. Rightly or wrongly, that’s the deal she struck with the King in the North in return for everything she brought to the table in the war against the AotD.

That doesn’t = hand over everything you’ve got to me. This idea that Dany was expecting the Starks to give up everything to her is just nonsense. She was asking for their fealty and their support for her campaign, after she came to their aid. She didn’t threaten to take Winterfell from the Starks because of Sansa’s resistance. She didn’t go all “dracarys” on Winterfell because Sansa was reluctant to go along with Jon’s deal. 

Sansa doesn’t want to be ruled. She wants to rule. She’s begrudges Jon for being chosen King when she feels entitled to rule, and undermines him publicly. Telling Tyrion Jon’s secret actually makes Jon and herself less safe, but she did it anyway because she knew it would potentially undermine Dany. 

Sansa doesn’t seem to get that if Dany were to lose her campaign, Cersei would not give Sansa what she wants; an independent North, and Cersei would likely execute Sansa, Jon Bran and Arya (if she could find her) and give Winterfell to one of her loyal cronies and the North would still be part of the seven Kingdoms. 

Edited May 14, 2019 by MarySNJ

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, Portia4844 said:

I agree.  Sansa and Arya have payed tons of dues and have grown from the young girls they were.  Sansa stopped being interesting when others had to be dumbed down to show how smart she was.  I don't have a problem with book Sansa or show Sansa growing and learning from all she's experienced.  I have a problem with the writing of her character to support whatever end result D&D were going for.  

The entire cast has been dumbed down to push this story ahead at breakneck speed.

[Advance35]

Quote

Her best bet for the life she wants is Jon on the throne.  I'm not sure if her crazy alarm was ringing when she met Dany or if she realized that Dany was just another person who would expect to control her. Dany will probably try to have Sansa executed next episode. The writing has been awful, but Sansa was right to identify Dany as a threat to her independence/the life she wants.

Having Jon on the Iron Throne is much safer for Sansa and that's why she spilled the beans to Tyrion, to present him as the better option.

Agreed.  And we saw, Dany easily manipulated Jon and as a result, Sansa had know say over any of the Northern Resources.  Sansa wanted the Northern Forces to have time to rest, thanks to Dany's control of Jon, that wasn't allowed to happen.  

She's seen Dany's act before, (a much better rendition by Margaery Tyrell) so she moved to unravel  Dany's Triumvirate (Jon, Tyrion and Varys).

Dany used Jon (though she truly loves him) to keep Sansa and any trouble she could cause in check, so Sansa, when she found out how devastating a weapon Jon could be against Dany, turned the tables. 

Sansa has become a shrewd and able courtier.  I'm glad she doesn't just imitate the schemers she has spent her formative years around.  Like when she was in The Vale, Sansa can use the truth, very much to her advantage.