Sansa Stark: A Direwolf In Sheep's Clothing?

[QuinnM]

Just now, chrisvee said:

Arya sent her to the crypts and she went so that someone from their family might survive. And despite not having trained to be a fighter when the fight actually came to her she stepped out to meet it. 

I saw this episode again last night and I noticed something interesting.  The piano piece, the penultimate dramatic crescendo, starts with Tyrion kissing Sansa's hand.  

And on second watch this is the two of them going to their deaths.  Nothing in it is hopeful or romantic.

[chrisvee]

36 minutes ago, QuinnM said:

I saw this episode again last night and I noticed something interesting.  The piano piece, the penultimate dramatic crescendo, starts with Tyrion kissing Sansa's hand.  

And on second watch this is the two of them going to their deaths.  Nothing in it is hopeful or romantic.

Yep they were all fighting a losing battle at that point and I think they all knew it. Very LotR until the moment when Arya managed to kill the NK. I thought the moment was pretty darned romantic though. Two people facing death together.

[Smad]

5 hours ago, merrick715 said:

If Sansa somehow found a sword and started hacking the wrights to bits, people would have complained that she had no weapons training, and it was just done to prop Sansa at the expense of other characters.

And this is exactly what Dany did in the episode yet no one seem to really complain about this. Dany doesn't even know how to hold a sword, much less how to swing one. Yet she dispatched quite a few wights no problem. If this had been Sansa, there would have been pages upon pages of comments complaining about her sudden sword skills.

As it stands, there isn't much to hope for in regards to the rest of the Season. D&D have written 8x03-8x06 so the most that will happen is more cattiness between females and lots of Tyrion worship. And I mean lots. I wouldn't be surprised if Sansa (and Dany) suddenly break out into song in one the remaining episodes with their rendition of 'Tyrion The Great'.

[ShellsandCheese]

13 hours ago, merrick715 said:

I'm truly curious.  Is there anything the show could realistically do, in the time left, that would change your opinion of Sansa's intelligence?

Yes. Show me something that shows her wit and the ability to out maneuver others using her head. I have yet to see any of that. Littlefinger continued to play her last year and create conflict with Arya until Bran stepped in to tell them what was going on (deleted scene).

She could help create the plan to get rid of Cersei. She could have spent the time in the crypts tactfully and subtlety learning more about Dany from Tyrion, Varys, and Missendei so that she could find an angle to advance her cause of Northern Independence. In her meeting with Dany in 8.2 she could have said the North is more valuable to you if we remain independent and here’s why. Hell, she could have been working Jon and trying to ensure a long standing alliance or marriage between him and Dany that guaranteed favorable terms to the North. But all I’ve seen is a lot of whinging. 

I know that she’s a survivor and she’s been through a lot but that doesn’t say anything about her intelligence. She wasn’t even able to successfully maneuver at Winterfell (while married to Ramsay) and there were people there still loyal to her family. This was after she supposedly learned so much from Cersei and Littlefinger. 

I’ll give props where props are due. And for me it’s not just about Sansa. I don’t think Dany is particularly politically savvy either. And we’re someone were to say she was the most intelligent person they know, I’d side eye that. But if someone were to say Dany is good at getting people to follow her and believe in her; I’d agree because I’ve seen it play out on screen. 

Edited May 1, 2019 by ShellsandCheese

[Drogo]

48 minutes ago, Smad said:

And this is exactly what Dany did in the episode yet no one seem to really complain about this. Dany doesn't even know how to hold a sword, much less how to swing one. Yet she dispatched quite a few wights no problem. If this had been Sansa, there would have been pages upon pages of comments complaining about her sudden sword skills.

No one's complaining about it because it's normal for someone with no weapons training to use a weapon to the best of their limited abilities in a climate where their life depends on it.  

[screamin]

24 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

Yes. Show me something that shows her wit and the ability to out maneuver others using her head. I have yet to see any of that. Littlefinger continued to play her last year and create conflict with Arya until Bran stepped in to tell them what was going on (deleted scene).

If we're allowed to use deleted scenes after all when we were recently told to strictly adhere to what actually appeared on the show...then it wasn't that Bran 'stepped in' to tell them what was going on - Sansa went to him to ask, because she'd realized she was being played. Bran was completely passive.

So in the battle of wits (or halfwits, if you have that particular view) between Arya and Sansa that LF had fanned the flames of for his own advantage, Sansa was the first one to realize she was being played, therefore in Arya's view she would consider Sansa smarter than the man who HAD successfully played Arya...and that's really IMO all her remark to Jon meant.

[Smad]

7 minutes ago, Drogo said:

No one's complaining about it because it's normal for someone with no weapons training to use a weapon to the best of their limited abilities in a climate where their life depends on it.  

No, no one is complaining about it because it's Dany. She shouldn't even know how to correctly use one to be able to dispatch anyone, undead or alive. And she fought off plenty. Heck, she even had the presence of mind in the heat of battle to shove Jorah in front of her and use him as a shield. I only have to look at the fighting pits when surrounded by Harpies as a comparison to know that Dany's prowess made no sense.

32 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

Littlefinger continued to play her last year and create conflict with Arya until Bran stepped in to tell them what was going on (deleted scene).

If you can tell me what the actual story was in S7, then we can all make a definitive statement as to what Sansa did or didn't do and whether she got plaid or not. As it stands though, there is no definitive story. The deleted scene was only mentioned by Issac I think and he interpreted the scene how HE thought it would fit into the story. Doesn't mean it was the actual intend of the scene since no one else talked about it if I remember correctly. The script deliberately hid things. Actual scenes in the show contradicted things that were in the scripts. Characters contradicted themselves. Writers contradicted was on screen. The actors put their own spin on it because no one knew what was going on. So what is the actual Sansa/Arya/LF storyline? No one knows.

[sistermagpie]

7 hours ago, anamika said:

Sorry, but why would not Arya think that the guy who orchestrated the Red Wedding and ended the war in one fell swoop is smart? Just because she's sad? 

I don't think she would have. His plan is effective but short-sighted. Destroying the trust that pact rested on was a terrible move if he was thinking of the bigger picture of the well-being of the kingdom, so I can absolutely believe that Arya would not only not want to give the guy credit but would not have looked at that move as smart. More like cowardly or something. After all, it didn't require cleverness, just a lack of respect for that vow. That's not smart, it's just low. Plus, not only did Tywin not know about Jaime and Cersei, didn't Arya spend her whole time with him being a person he was looking for who was hiding right under his nose?

That said, I do think Arya's line is stupid. It does invite you to ask yourself whether Sansa is so very intelligent that anybody would say that about her and for me it just makes me think how she's not that smart even though I think she's perfectly intelligent. I would feel the same way if somebody said it about most of the characters in the show. At least if somebody said it about Sam I'd know exactly what they meant by "smart" to be able to put him so much in the lead, you know?

[ursula]

7 hours ago, merrick715 said:

If Sansa somehow found a sword and started hacking the wrights to bits, people would have complained that she had no weapons training, and it was just done to prop Sansa at the expense of other characters.

Sansa was supposed to have weapons training. All the Northerners were supposed to. We see Lyanna Mormont specifically ask for weapons training to be extended to herself and women in general. 

Also, at whose expense would showing Sansa fight have been at? At Tyrion's? At Missandei's? At Varys's? 

And I say this as someone who didn't mind Sansa not fighting or even protecting the children like Varys did. Sometimes people are physical cowards. My main disappointment was that she didn't show any form of spiritual bravery or leadership in that scene, and the fact that she was snarking about Dany who was at the same time, picking up a sword for the first time in her life, was not a good look for her. 

And yeah, I'm going to beat that Doylist vs Watsonian horse and point out that none of this was deliberate. The decision to have Sansa snark at Dany, and Missandei shut her up, the decision to parallel Cersei during the Blackwater, the decision to have Lady Lyanna Mormont take down a literal giant, the decision to show Sansa cowering in the crypts clutching a weapon that she didn't even have the sense to give anyone while Northerners died around her... Like we can deliberate on what Watsonian reasons her character had for behaving like this, but there's no doubt that the Doylist reasons are plain. As someone else pointed up thread: it's almost as if the writers wanted people to hate Sansa in this episode. 

Edited May 1, 2019 by ursula

[sistermagpie]

8 minutes ago, ursula said:

And yeah, I'm going to beat that Doylist vs Watsonian horse and point out that none of this was deliberate. The decision to have Sansa snark at Dany, and Missandei shut her up, the decision to parallel Cersei during the Blackwater, the decision to have Lady Lyanna Mormont take down a literal giant, the decision to show Sansa cowering in the crypts clutching a weapon that she didn't even have the sense to give anyone while Northerners died around her... Like we can deliberate on what Watsonian reasons her character had for behaving like this, but there's no doubt that the Doylist reasons are plain. As someone else pointed up thread: it's almost as if the writers wanted people to hate Sansa in this episode. 

Just speaking for myself, the Doylist message I got from this ep was that this wasn't about Sansa. What Sansa brought to the table was not of use in this situation. They even put those words into her mouth. Missendei's line supported that as well. 

[Oscirus]

15 minutes ago, ursula said:

Sansa was supposed to have weapons training. All the Northerners were supposed to. We see Lyanna Mormont specifically ask for weapons training to be extended to herself and women in general. 

Sansas taking care of the house and all the requests that go with it. She's basically serving as not only the lord in jon's absence but the lady as well. I legit doubt that she had the required time to do weapons training while keeping Winterfell ran as smoothly.

[ShellsandCheese]

6 minutes ago, Smad said:

If you can tell me what the actual story was in S7, then we can all make a definitive statement as to what Sansa did or didn't do and whether she got plaid or not. As it stands though, there is no definitive story. The deleted scene was only mentioned by Issac I think and he interpreted the scene how HE thought it would fit into the story. Doesn't mean it was the actual intend of the scene since no one else talked about it if I remember correctly. The script deliberately hid things. Actual scenes in the show contradicted things that were in the scripts. Characters contradicted themselves. Writers contradicted was on screen. The actors put their own spin on it because no one knew what was going on. So what is the actual Sansa/Arya/LF storyline? No one knows.

It's a TV show. We go by what we see. And this is why showing is more important than telling. It's one thing to have clues that are easy to pick up on; it's another thing entirely to present something and then later tell the audience that this is what happened or this is how it should be interpreted. 

[Smad]

Just now, ShellsandCheese said:

It's a TV show. We go by what we see. And this is why showing is more important than telling. It's one thing to have clues that are easy to pick up on; it's another thing entirely to present something and then later tell the audience that this is what happened or this is how it should be interpreted. 

Of course it only matters what's on screen because that's the only thing everyone has watched as opposed to interviews, Inside the Episode or scripts. But you yourself brought up something that wasn't on screen to prove your point. So which is it? It can't be both.

I mean it's not even necessary to bring up something that wasn't in the show as what's in the show didn't make sense to begin with. Unless what's not in the show helps to prove your argument but if that's true, you contradict yourself when saying 'we go by what we see'. And you didn't see the scene of Sansa going to Bran.

[SeanC]

30 minutes ago, ursula said:

Sansa was supposed to have weapons training. All the Northerners were supposed to. We see Lyanna Mormont specifically ask for weapons training to be extended to herself and women in general. 

There was no indication whatsoever that Sansa had weapons training.  Such a huge shift for the character would have been show onscreen.  She already had a job, running the North.

[ShellsandCheese]

6 minutes ago, Smad said:

Of course it only matters what's on screen because that's the only thing everyone has watched as opposed to interviews, Inside the Episode or scripts. But you yourself brought up something that wasn't on screen to prove your point. So which is it? It can't be both.

I mean it's not even necessary to bring up something that wasn't in the show as what's in the show didn't make sense to begin with. Unless what's not in the show helps to prove your argument but if that's true, you contradict yourself when saying 'we go by what we see'. And you didn't see the scene of Sansa going to Bran.

No, I didn't. And I specifically mentioned that because what we saw presented one story (Littlefinger playing both Sansa and Arya) with a sudden and swift resolution with nothing to indicate how Sansa and Arya went from being played to realizing they were being played, to turning the tables on Littlefinger.

I was using it as an example of what's wrong with some of the storytelling on GoT. My point was, we shouldn't have to watch behind the scenes vignettes or have an actor explain after the fact, that things on the show went from point A to point B due to things unbeknownst to the audience. Sadly, I've noticed, especially in the later seasons of GoT that this happens a lot. We saw one thing - and then someone gives an interview and says, oh well this happened and it explains why you saw this story on screen, but we didn't show it. 

Edited May 1, 2019 by ShellsandCheese

[screamin]

1 hour ago, ursula said:

Like we can deliberate on what Watsonian reasons her character had for behaving like this, but there's no doubt that the Doylist reasons are plain. As someone else pointed up thread: it's almost as if the writers wanted people to hate Sansa in this episode. 

Glad you brought that up again. When you explained "Doylist" versus "Watsonian" reasons, you gave this example:

Quote

Watsonian: "Luke Skywalker was attacked by a wampa and there wasn't enough bacta to remove the scars."

Doylistic: "Mark Hamill was in a near-fatal car accident in the middle of shooting Empire Strikes Back."

Presumably, there is proof in the form of news media about Mark Hamill's car accident that gives a firm basis to the people who state that this was why Luke had scars. Do you have similar proof where the writers say they 'want people to hate Sansa' in this episode? Because without that, you're assuming "Doylist" explanations with no proof because you want to reject the plot we see as inadequate without discussing it.

Quote

... the decision to parallel Cersei during the Blackwater, the decision to have Lady Lyanna Mormont take down a literal giant,

...the parallel with Cersei isn't particularly strong, IMO.  In the Blackwater Cersei screamed at wounded Lancel instead of helping him, demanded the King be brought in even though it weakened morale, and had an executioner present to put everyone to death if Stannis took the city. And no, Sansa didn't work to cheer anyone up, but the people in the crypt know very well that if Sansa is in the crypt that must mean things are going pear-shaped above.  The situation is a lot more dire than the one Cersei's audience was in - and unlike Cersei's audience, everyone in the crypt knows they're doomed if the fight's lost. I don't blame Sansa for not doing cheerleading after just seeing the lives of all the Dothraki wink out in minutes - she'd know she couldn't convincingly lie about what was happening.

Quote

the decision to show Sansa cowering in the crypts clutching a weapon that she didn't even have the sense to give anyone while Northerners died around her...

Who would she give it to? Tyrion, the man who actually HAD battle experience? Turned out he had his own weapon, AND he fled into hiding as quickly as she did.

Some people want to think of Sansa as coldly, viciously calculating, shrewdly hiding so that the wights will get her people, but not her - even though a shrewdly calculating person would realize this was a ridiculous strategy when every person killed by a wight will become a wight. You're just multiplying the number of enemies who will ultimately kill you.  The 'shrewd, calculating' thing would be to urge someone else to fight the wights. She didn't do that - she panicked. As did Tyrion, who's (as anamika remarked) not a coward. As did everyone in the crypts.

No one in the crypts expected the sarcophagi to start opening and spewing wights. They thought the crypt was inaccessible; what they expected was that if the battle above were lost, they would be faced with making the miserable choice at leisure of starving in the crypts, or opening the door and letting the wights get them. The sudden horrifying outburst of wights caused mindless panic. And in mindless panic, people do unworthy things. As did Tyrion and Sansa. I don't think there's any reason to reach for 'Doylist' reasons without proof. They panicked. They recovered from the panic. They took out their weapons and did what they should have if they hadn't panicked. It seems believable to me.

Now if you want to argue that there is NO believable reason for anyone in Winterfell to have ever considered the crypts a safe place, and the only possible explanation is the writers wanted a cool scene with mummified wights bursting from sarcophagi, no matter how dumb it made everyone look - you'll find me receptive to a Doylist explanation for that. ;) Hell, there's even PROOF of a Doylist explanation - Dinklage himself points out in that linked video above how dumb the crypts are as a refuge, and says pointedly "I guess Tyrion's not so smart after all."

Edited May 1, 2019 by screamin

[ursula]

49 minutes ago, SeanC said:

1 hour ago, ursula said:

Sansa was supposed to have weapons training. All the Northerners were supposed to. We see Lyanna Mormont specifically ask for weapons training to be extended to herself and women in general. 

There was no indication whatsoever that Sansa had weapons training.  Such a huge shift for the character would have been show onscreen. 

My point was that she did not have weapons training. Her King ordered her to, leaving her in charge and she felt that it did not apply to her. 

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

Sansas taking care of the house and all the requests that go with it. She's basically serving as not only the lord in jon's absence but the lady as well. I legit doubt that she had the required time to do weapons training while keeping Winterfell ran as smoothly.

She's not sweeping the floors. She has people at her disposal to deputise her duties to - and she still managed to fail at preparing provisions for the reinforcements she was told were coming to the North. 

Compare to Bran who was far younger when he ran the North and the only reason why he wasn't weapons-training was because he was crippled. Lady Lyanna Mormont ran Bear Island, and took Maester lessons and still managed to get an impressive skillset before the Battle.

Sansa "Smartest Person in the World" Stark didn't even learn which side of the knife to hold. 

[SeanC]

3 minutes ago, ursula said:

My point was that she did not have weapons training. Her King ordered her to, leaving her in charge and she felt that it did not apply to her. 

No, Jon didn't order her to.  If that was meant to be the case, that would have been an issue in the show itself.

Frankly, that's an example of a plot element the show introduced for one scene and then did nothing further with.  Sansa already had a job to do.

Quote

She has people at her disposal to deputise her duties to - and she still managed to fail at preparing provisions for the reinforcements she was told were coming to the North. 

She was told that the army was coming north in the Season 7 finale.

Beyond which, from what little we known of the logistics question (something the show's writers aren't really interested in, anyway) the implication is that there simply isn't more food available.

[Kate47]

Yeah, saying Jon specifically told her to get weapons training and that Sansa specifically disregarded those instructions is reading a little too hard into the scene.

Which is why these message boards exist, I suppose.

[Smad]

2 hours ago, ursula said:

My point was that she did not have weapons training. Her King ordered her to, leaving her in charge and she felt that it did not apply to her.

You do realize there is a simple explanation for that in the show? She simply didn't have the time. Between dealing with a creepy/catatonic brother, a psycho sister, babying Lords, a creepy stalker, running Winterfell and being Regent of the North...when would she have found the time to squeeze in the training? Maybe if her brother wasn't completely useless and her sister actually did her feudal duties and helped out around WF. Maybe if the Lords weren't acting like kids on a playground in need of a mother and maybe if Jon had given Regency to someone else. Heck if the writers had allowed her to dispatch of LF end of S6 or the first episode of S7.

2 hours ago, ursula said:

She's not sweeping the floors. She has people at her disposal to deputise her duties to - and she still managed to fail at preparing provisions for the reinforcements she was told were coming to the North.

Jon went South to get dragon glass and maybe some allies if he is lucky. Then we are told, on screen, that Jon was radio silent. When Sansa finally gets a message from Jon in the S7 Finale, that's when she is told that Jon is bringing an entire army with him. How do you propose Sansa gets provisions for 100k more people in the span of, at most, a few weeks? Find a wishing well?

2 hours ago, ursula said:

Compare to Bran who was far younger when he ran the North and the only reason why he wasn't weapons-training was because he was crippled. Lady Lyanna Mormont ran Bear Island, and took Maester lessons and still managed to get an impressive skillset before the Battle.

Totally different circumstances which make for terrible comparisons. The Mormont women in general are all trained to fight, something that seems unique to them because no one else in the North seems to do that for their highborn Ladies. And Bear Island is apparently so small they can spare only 62 soldiers for a fight. With a council on hand, it's easy to run a place with such a small population. Bran only had the task of running WF for a few weeks and he had started to receive weapons training prior to his accident. Sansa had not, ever. And Sansa wasn't just running WF in S7. Jon gave her regency over the entire North which means Sansa had to do double duty. So these comparisons make no sense because it ignores context.

Edited May 2, 2019 by Smad

[screamin]

1 hour ago, ursula said:

My point was that she did not have weapons training. Her King ordered her to, leaving her in charge and she felt that it did not apply to her. 

Sansa wasn't the only young woman down in the crypts. Are we to fault Gilly, too, for not getting weapons training while leaving her child in the care of one of the women over 60 who were explicitly exempt from the weapons training mandate?

If we're going to fanwank explanations, we must do so evenhandedly. I would guess that the whole 'women AND men mandated to train' had exemptions for those doing vital tasks (like, say being maester, or child care, or, yes, doing logistic organization for feeding the entire population of the North for a winter of unknown duration).

[Oscirus]

2 hours ago, ursula said:

She's not sweeping the floors. She has people at her disposal to deputise her duties to - and she still managed to fail at preparing provisions for the reinforcements she was told were coming to the North. 

Compare to Bran who was far younger when he ran the North and the only reason why he wasn't weapons-training was because he was crippled. Lady Lyanna Mormont ran Bear Island, and took Maester lessons and still managed to get an impressive skillset before the Battle.

Sansa "Smartest Person in the World" Stark didn't even learn which side of the knife to hold. 

In Bran's case, Bran was basically running the trials  and leaving the heavy lifting elsewhere and lyanna Mormont was able to train specifically because Sansa was doing her job. 

Her complaining about providing provisions doesn't mean she didn't have them ready and prepared.

Sansa was doing two peoples jobs of making sure Winterfell was up and running and making sure that they were ready for the upcoming war, when she have time to learn to fight?

[ursula]

3 hours ago, SeanC said:

No, Jon didn't order her to.

Jon mandated that every able bodied man in the North get trained. At Lady Mormont's insistence, he expanded the order to every able bodied person. 

1 hour ago, Smad said:

Heck if the writers had allowed her to dispatch of LF end of S6 or the first episode of S7.

You're conflating Doylist and Watsonian.

1 hour ago, Smad said:

Jon gave her regency over the entire North which means Sansa had to do double duty. So these comparisons make no sense because it ignores context.

She wasn't the first person to run the North. She was doing what her father, her grandfather and every other Warden/Lord/Regent has done in the past - sometimes in the middle of wars, siege and winter. 

Quote

In Bran's case, Bran was basically running the trials  and leaving the heavy lifting elsewhere

Or rather, Bran delegated. That's what a successful leader does. 

Sansa being in charge of the North didn't equate to her micro-managing every castle or holdfast. It didn't require her to settle every dispute. That's why there are bannermen and lesser Houses. That's why Winterfell has all those people doing stuff. Was Sansa also personally kneading the bread? Washing her clothes? Dusting the halls and emptying out the bed pans? On Bear Island, Lyanna Mormont had even more responsibilities because she had less people to delegate to.

And heck maybe if Sansa had taken out time to train once in a while - even if it was just for show - the "childish" Northern Lords might have taken the threat more seriously. It's hard to believe an apocalypse is coming when your Lord is always found in her office, balancing the books. 

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

when she have time to learn to fight?

An hour of basic training won't have been impossible. No one expected her to be a ninja like Arya but to not be able to hold a knife? Seriously?

Edited May 2, 2019 by ursula

[ursula]

1 hour ago, Smad said:

When Sansa finally gets a message from Jon in the S7 Finale, that's when she is told that Jon is bringing an entire army with him. 

So basically Sansa failed at doing her job because Jon did his own too well? 

Raise your hand if you just got war flashbacks of college group projects.

[screamin]

18 minutes ago, ursula said:

An hour of basic training won't have been impossible. No one expected her to be a ninja like Arya but to not be able to hold a knife? Seriously?

Who said she didn't know how to hold it? She said she didn't know how to use it. Can knife fighting as a skill be learned in 'an hour of basic training'? Is it really as simple as 'stick them with the pointy end?' Sansa knows better than that. 

18 minutes ago, ursula said:

You're conflating Doylist and Watsonian.

So? You're using Watsonian analysis now, here: 

Quote

She wasn't the first person to run the North. She was doing what her father, her grandfather and every other Warden/Lord/Regent has done in the past - sometimes in the middle of wars, siege and winter. 

...when you earlier brushed Watsonian analysis off as 'handwaving.' I don't think attaching the labels really does much for the discussion.

Edited May 2, 2019 by screamin

[Drogo]

2 hours ago, screamin said:

Sansa wasn't the only young woman down in the crypts.

She was the only one with a weapon. 

[Advance35]

Quote

Sansa was doing two peoples jobs of making sure Winterfell was up and running and making sure that they were ready for the upcoming war, when she have time to learn to fight?

I got the impression the primary job Jon wanted her to perform, was keep the people together, which she did. despite their grumbling and dissatisfaction with the King in the North.  She kept them from rebelling and taking their forces and going home.  Something Jon finger-painted over when he made his massive political blunder (hence Lord Glover taking his forces and leaving).

Sansa not only fluffed the Lords as needed (something that is a full-time job) but took on the practical matters of running Winterfell and The North as a whole.  Making arrangements in case they were attacked by The Night King OR Cersei (something nobody else added to their calculations).

Sansa being aware of when she is out of her league is how she's lasted so long, as just a regular girl/woman without magic or special powers.

And Tyrion wasn't overly concerned with the masses either.  His first instinct was to get himself and Sansa to safety.   Sansa is the only one we see him yelling "Come on" to when the dead came alive down there.  Some things are instinct.  If your lucky, self-preservation is one of them.

Edited May 2, 2019 by Advance35

[Drogo]

44 minutes ago, screamin said:

Is it really as simple as 'stick them with the pointy end?' 

Yes.

[sistermagpie]

6 minutes ago, Drogo said:

She was the only one with a weapon. 

Tyrion had a weapon, right? That we didn't know about until he took it out? Would have made sense if Missendrei had one too. I'd expect even Varys to have something up his kimono sleeve.

I don't want to make up stories about weapons we didn't see but can't prove don't exist. I just don't think the story point of Sansa having a weapon was that she was the only one down there with one so it was up to her to do something with it. I think it was just a character thing for Sansa so that she could face her own death with Tyrion deciding to go out fighting. The scene isn't written, imo, as Sansa freezing up instead of rising to the task of being the Only Woman With a Knife who needs to save people.

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, ursula said:

Jon mandated that every able bodied man in the North get trained. At Lady Mormont's insistence, he expanded the order to every able bodied person. 

And since the issue is never raised in regard to Sansa, not even by Jon himself, it clearly wasn't meant to apply to her, because she had an important job already.*

* The "Doylist" analysis, if we're going down that road, is that the writers threw in that bit to make Jon look progressive and give Lyanna a little speech, and didn't think any further on the subject.

[ursula]

28 minutes ago, SeanC said:

* The "Doylist" analysis, if we're going down that road, is that the writers threw in that bit to make Jon look progressive and give Lyanna a little speech, and didn't think any further on the subject.

Well obviously. The writing for this show has been haphazard and inconsistent at best, and around Sansa it just gets worse, if that is even possible.

[Smad]

3 hours ago, ursula said:

You're conflating Doylist and Watsonian.

And you are avoiding all the other points I have made by singling out that part. I could have left that part out and all the rest still applies. But then you couldn't use D vs W as an excuse to invalidate all my points. Because it doesn't invalidate them.

3 hours ago, ursula said:

She wasn't the first person to run the North. She was doing what her father, her grandfather and every other Warden/Lord/Regent has done in the past - sometimes in the middle of wars, siege and winter.

Oh you mean they did what they were specifically trained for? And it's not really the same situation is it? As her father and grandfather were just WotN. Neither of them were King or Regent of a King. I would think that King or Regent comes with more issues than WotN, otherwise there wouldn't be different titles for the same thing.

3 hours ago, ursula said:

Or rather, Bran delegated. That's what a successful leader does. 

So did Sansa. As we were shown. Doesn't change the fact that she had 2 jobs instead of just one that she had to delegate, oversee etc..

3 hours ago, ursula said:

Sansa being in charge of the North didn't equate to her micro-managing every castle or holdfast. It didn't require her to settle every dispute. That's why there are bannermen and lesser Houses. That's why Winterfell has all those people doing stuff.

Oh you meant those people, houses, that were at WF all the time? The same houses that we were told would eventually make a stand at WF? The banners Sansa called before Jon even got back to WF? Of course Sansa didn't have to manage the whole North since they were all always at WF. Which of course also means, as we were shown, she had to settle disputes the houses had with Jon's absence and radio silence in S7. And while Sansa is not in charge of the other houses, she was very much in charge of the people. That's why refugees were mentioned last Season and so were evacuations of the other Northern houses. That's why Sansa in 8x02 said to keep the gates open for people coming from all over the North until the last possible moment. So Sansa was very much doing 2 jobs that she had to oversee even when she delegated.

3 hours ago, ursula said:

And heck maybe if Sansa had taken out time to train once in a while - even if it was just for show - the "childish" Northern Lords might have taken the threat more seriously. It's hard to believe an apocalypse is coming when your Lord is always found in her office, balancing the books.

Really? We are back to that? Is nothing Jon's job? Again, how is Sansa supposed to make the threat clear to the North? She hasn't seen it. Jon has, Edd has, Tormund has, Sam has and lets not forget all seeing Bran. Why don't people who have actually seen it speak to it more? Or hey even better, capture a wight and show the Northern Lords. That shouldn't be a problem, right?

3 hours ago, ursula said:

So basically Sansa failed at doing her job because Jon did his own too well? 

Nope. Jon failed communication 101, simple as that. Sansa can't prepare for something if she has no idea about it or is told at the 11th hour. And even then, you have failed to address how Sansa was supposed to get those provisions needed to feed an additional 100k+ people. You are just trying to twist everything into 'it's Sansa's fault' without actually providing solutions and/or counter arguments.

[ursula]

1 hour ago, Smad said:

And you are avoiding all the other points I have made by singling out that part. I could have left that part out and all the rest still applies. But then you couldn't use D vs W as an excuse to invalidate all my points. Because it doesn't invalidate them.

I already did with everything else. I don’t see the need to repeat myself or respond to quotes line by line. You might have noticed that I lump a lot of replies together. 

1 hour ago, Smad said:

4 hours ago, ursula said:

She was doing what her father, her grandfather and every other Warden/Lord/Regent has done in the past - sometimes in the middle of wars, siege and winter. 

And it's not really the same situation is it? As her father and grandfather were just WotN. Neither of them were King or Regent of a King. I would think that King or Regent comes with more issues than WotN, otherwise there wouldn't be different titles for the same thing.

Ehem.

And yes, Warden and King aren’t exactly the same job. The Warden of the North involves more work because as part of the Seven Kingdoms, the King could command you to be involved in a war or an alliance or an economic resolution that the North would ordinarily not be part of e.g. Ned fostering Balon Greyjoy’s son… Alysanne Targaryen giving the Gift to the Watch, Daeron I recruiting the Hungry Wolf to fight Dorne, etc. As King your only business is the North. As Warden, your reach has to be wider. And that's before you even start talking about taxes.

No, she’s not in "charge of the smallfolk". That’s not how fiefdoms work. Also - what 2 jobs? It’s only ever been one job as Lord of Winterfell. Until Jon was crowned King in the North (with no lands or seat or castle), the two titles  - Warden/King and Lord of Winterfell have always been held by one person.

1 hour ago, Smad said:

You are just trying to twist everything into 'it's Sansa's fault' without actually providing solutions and/or counter arguments.

😑

Look I'm not going to argue every point line by line. Most of what I've said is either repeated, or a clarification of what I've said and it gets tired. So I'll just reiterate two things clearly:

1. While I think Sansa asking how to use a knife was Stupid with a capital S, her failure in 8x03 wasn't her inability to fight but her inability to lead. The writers either dropped the ball in calling back to Blackwater because they've lost all sense of her character (see 2 below) or they deliberately wrote the scene like that to make Sansa an unflattering foil to the other female characters. (Feel free to debate whether or not D & D are misogynistic writers, but I'm not going to participate. 😑)
2. Criticism against Sansa isn't "hate" for the character, it's "hate" for the writing. The writing for showSansa went off rails in season 5* and has never come back. At this point, showSansa isn't a character with any kind of coherency or consistency. She's a plot device. Someone mentioned above that nobody understands what Sansa's season 7 arc was, what she knew or didn't know, how far along she was manipulated by Baelish or not. The actress didn't know. The writers couldn't explain it and the script contradicted everything on the scene. That, imo, is an excellent illustration of the Problem with Show Sansa. 

*Generally the writing for the show went off rails in 5 after they ran out of source material. Sansa just gets the worst of it because, amongst many other things, her departure from the source material was the most drastic. 

Edited May 2, 2019 by ursula

[Hana Chan]

The problem that I have with Sansa's storyline, specifically that she's so politically intelligent and has grown so much, is that it's a lot of tell and very little show. As a writer, I've had it drilled into my head that if you have to tell your readers (or viewers in this case) a point because you've failed to show it through the action, then you've failed.

Last season we watched Littlefinger twisting Sansa about, trying to turn her against not just Jon, but Arya as well. After being sold to the Boltons, I would expect that Sansa would not have believed a single word that came out of his mouth and even if she did have to tread carefully in order to keep the Vale as allies, would not have allowed his manipulation. If she had become so politically wise, we could have seen Sansa weaving and dodging, turning Littlefinger's manipulations back on himself. We didn't see that. We had her believing him and having him running the show until the moment when he made a mistake and gave the game away.

Now we have her openly insulting Dany, not just upon her arrival at Winterfell, but at the very moment when Dany and her forces were putting their lives on the line to defend the North. We don't see her trying to control the situation, trying to use Dany and ingratiate herself so that she'll have a weapon to use against the thing that she sees as the bigger problem (Cersei). The one "win" she can point to was not letting Dany execute Jamie but other than that, she's been fairly ineffective beyond veiled (and not such veiled) insults. 

And as for the argument that Sansa couldn't possibly have time for an hour or two of weapons training while running Winterfell, that's not exactly a ringing endorsement of her being such a capable leader. Other nobles found it possible to walk and chew gum at the same time and the only answer I can come up with is that she 1) still did not believe Jon about the immediate threat they were facing and 2) knew that she would have hundreds if not thousands of warriors who would be laying down their lives to protect Winterfell (and herself). This, again, brings up the question if a good leader sacrifices on behalf of his/her people, or expects them to sacrifice on behalf of the leader. It's pretty obvious (to me) which side of that question Sansa falls on.

[Advance35]

Quote

 That's why Sansa in 8x02 said to keep the gates open for people coming from all over the North until the last possible moment. So Sansa was very much doing 2 jobs that she had to oversee even when she delegated.

In addition to keeping The Northern Lords placated, Sansa was doing something in front of the small folk because when Arya showed up and demanded they get someone whom she knew could verify her identity, The Guards told her, Lady Sansa is to busy to be disturbed.

Whatever reputation Sansa has with The Northerners, I doubt it's that of a slacker.

[screamin]

8 hours ago, Drogo said:

She was the only one with a weapon. 

And so all those young women in the crypt were ordered to be trained in use of weapons by the king - but not armed when he brings the actual weapons?

Edited May 2, 2019 by screamin

[Drogo]

1 hour ago, screamin said:

And so all those young women in the crypt were ordered to be trained in use of weapons by the king - but not armed when he brings the actual weapons?

Probably not since they were supposed to be locked away from the battle, but Sansa wasn't supposed to be in the crypt. So either she was trained or she was the special exception to the All Men/Women/Children specs. 

[screamin]

15 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Probably not since they were supposed to be locked away from the battle, but Sansa wasn't supposed to be in the crypt. So either she was trained or she was the special exception to the All Men/Women/Children specs. 

Tyrion wasn't just trained with weapons, he had actual combat experience, and he was armed. But he reacted just as Sansa did - panicked and hid. All the people in the crypt were not expecting to be attacked, this was supposed to be a 'safe' place. The panic is understandable under the circumstances. And I think it's to Sansa's and Tyrion's credit that it is temporary, and they remembered the responsibility that their leadership and the weapons that they carry gave them, and drew their weapons and left their hiding places.

Edited May 2, 2019 by screamin

[merrick715]

15 hours ago, ursula said:

Also, at whose expense would showing Sansa fight have been at? At Tyrion's? At Missandei's? At Varys's? 

Sorry, perhaps propping isn't the correct term. Let's say D&D decided to include Sansa's training and by the time the battle of the Long Night happens, she's proficient enough that she wouldn't be killed in less than two minutes on the battlefield. Parts of fandom would accuse D&D of propping Sansa up by giving the skills that she doesn't have, but Arya does. There are fans who think Sansa stole Arya's plot in season five.

[Drogo]

37 minutes ago, screamin said:

And I think it's to Sansa's and Tyrion's credit that it is temporary, and they remembered the responsibility that their leadership and the weapons that they carry gave them, and drew their weapons and left their hiding places.

It is, but I would've given them a lot more credit if they'd "remembered" their positions, responsbilities and weapons sooner.

Sooner being "before half of their unarmed civilians were killed."

[Hana Chan]

3 hours ago, screamin said:

And so all those young women in the crypt were ordered to be trained in use of weapons by the king - but not armed when he brings the actual weapons?

Possibly not. If they weren't, that falls on Sansa since it was her responsibility to follow through on Jon's instructions while he was away.

[screamin]

1 hour ago, Drogo said:

It is, but I would've given them a lot more credit if they'd "remembered" their positions, responsbilities and weapons sooner.

Sooner being "before half of their unarmed civilians were killed."

My point was that 'training' and even actual combat experience by a man who is not noted for cowardice, can only take one so far. To demand immediate presence of mind and recovery from confrontation with the horrifyingly 'impossible' (as the sudden bursting of the sarcophagi would have been considered by the people in the crypt) is to demand the superhuman from mere humans.

2 hours ago, Drogo said:

Probably not since they were supposed to be locked away from the battle, but Sansa wasn't supposed to be in the crypt. So either she was trained or she was the special exception to the All Men/Women/Children specs. 

Looking at this again, I don't think we can take "Sansa wasn't supposed to be in the crypt," as meaning "Sansa MUST have been trained and made combat ready or else she was delinquent." She was only sent down into the crypt when it became clear that the TRAINED warriors were being overwhelmed with ease and Winterfell itself was likely to be overrun. I mean, was it SUPPOSED to happen that the Dothraki would wink out like birthday candles?

It occurs to me that we really don't know if Sansa or Gilly or any of those women in the crypts 'trained' or not for an hour a day as some here have assured us would have been sufficient to make them combat ready. What we DO know is that we saw quite a few young women as well as Gilly and Sansa in the crypts.

To say that training for an hour a day is enough to make a person combat-ready is nonsense. Boot camp to make real soldiers combat-ready is an intensive, full time, months-long experience - and even then it differs from actual combat experience. We've seen that warriors in Westeros have been trained to combat since they were children. To me it makes more sense to think that the decision to put people in the crypt - including young women like Gilly, the other anonymous ones with her, and yes, Sansa - is that their level of readiness was evaluated by experienced warriors on a case by case basis, and decided "These people, regardless of how willingly they engaged or not in their few weeks of training, are simply not combat-ready and will be a distraction instead of an aid to the trained warriors."

45 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

Possibly not. If they weren't, that falls on Sansa since it was her responsibility to follow through on Jon's instructions while he was away.

ETA: See above. Also, the decision as to who gets weapons made of dragonglass would not have been made by Sansa, as Jon brought it with him when he came with Dany and Sansa's rule as regent ended at that point.

Edited May 2, 2019 by screamin
response to new post.

[Drogo]

36 minutes ago, screamin said:

My point was that 'training' and even actual combat experience by a man who is not noted for cowardice, can only take one so far. To demand immediate presence of mind and recovery from confrontation with the horrifyingly 'impossible' (as the sudden bursting of the sarcophagi would have been considered by the people in the crypt) is to demand the superhuman from mere humans.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this:  confronting an inevitable enemy as the only person equipped to do so in a pit of unarmed civilians is not superhuman behavior.  And the only thing required to make someone combat-ready... is combat.  When you play the game of thrones, you either win or you die. When you're in a crypt filled with wights, you're either combat-ready or you're dead.

I don't accept a comparison between Gilly (an unarmed civilian with a child to care for) and Sansa (the Lady of the castle with only herself to look after, possessor of the sole dragonglass weapon in the house) as apples to apples. 

36 minutes ago, screamin said:

My point was that 'training' and even actual combat experience by a man who is not noted for cowardice, can only take one so far.

Tyrion didn't have a weapon; Sansa gave him hers.  So what he did before he had a weapon isn't exactly evidence to cowardice, IMO. 

[Constantinople]

17 hours ago, ursula said:

My point was that she did not have weapons training. Her King ordered her to, leaving her in charge and she felt that it did not apply to her.

Apparently the order didn't apply to any women since, despite having an army of thousands, I didn't see a single female redshirt in the Northern Army, something that even Star Trek had.

Which just proves @SeanC's point that Jon's order was just a throwaway line to make Jon look cool and Lyanna look like a badass, and that D&D immediately forgot about it, or didn't care enough about continuity to have a gender diverse army.

[screamin]

12 minutes ago, Drogo said:

We'll have to agree to disagree on this:  confronting an inevitable enemy as the only person equipped to do so in a pit of unarmed civilians is not superhuman behavior.  And the only thing required to make someone combat-ready... is combat.  When you play the game of thrones, you either win or you die. When you're in a crypt filled with wights, you're either combat-ready or you're dead.

I don't accept a comparison between Gilly (an unarmed civilian with a child to care for) and Sansa (the Lady of the castle with only herself to look after, possessor of the sole dragonglass weapon in the house) as apples to apples. 

Tyrion didn't have a weapon; Sansa gave him hers.  So what he did before he had a weapon isn't exactly evidence to cowardice, IMO. 

Confronting an 'inevitable' enemy when you're expecting one (as when you're a soldier with appropriate training in a line with other soldiers facing the enemy and knowing what to expect and what is expected of you in that situation) is different from being a person explicitly excluded from combat due to incapacity in a zone that is supposed to be safe from the enemy. "Inevitable" means unavoidable. All the people in the crypt were there because they were supposed to be avoiding combat that they were not capable of handling. To say that because they are leaders they should be immune to the element of surprise even though the element of surprise is often used successfully against trained armies and their leaders both in Westeros and in our own world, is IMO an unreasonable demand.

22 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Tyrion didn't have a weapon; Sansa gave him hers.  So what he did before he had a weapon isn't exactly evidence to cowardice, IMO. 

I couldn't use that link at work, so I looked up one on youtube that proclaimed itself brightened for easy visibility, and all I can say is, it doesn't look that way to me. Of course, I only have a youtube video on an office desktop, but all I can see between Tyrion and Sansa is blackness, not a weapon being passed. Not to mention that the knife we see when Sansa raises it on the left looks MUCH shorter than the knife Tyrion raises on the right when he gets up (and he'd be much better at making a dirty joke about it than I am).

Even if she did, my point still stands - if she recognized he was better at combat (having actually BEEN in combat) - giving him the knife would be an appropriate move, and standing next to him in front of the other noncombatants even if she were unarmed was a brave thing to do, once the initial mindless panic had passed.

[Drogo]

Just now, screamin said:

Even if she did, my point still stands - if she recognized he was better at combat (having actually BEEN in combat) - giving him the knife would be an appropriate move, and standing next to him in front of the other noncombatants even if she were unarmed was a brave thing to do, once the initial mindless panic had passed.

Agreed.  And I still think it would've been better before half the crypt's civilian population was lying dead on the floor.

[screamin]

2 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Apparently the order didn't apply to any women since, despite having an army of thousands, I didn't see a single female redshirt in the Northern Army, something that even Star Trek had.

Which just proves @SeanC's point that Jon's order was just a throwaway line to make Jon look cool and Lyanna look like a badass, and that D&D immediately forgot about it, or didn't care enough about continuity to have a gender diverse army.

I agree about Jon's order being a throwaway line, but I think I DID see a few women among the men standing ready to fight (I think the Hound rudely pushed past one at the beginning). However, the ones I did see were all appropriately armored, and it's reasonable to think that these were women who ALREADY knew how to fight before Jon's order, as they had all the personalized equipment for doing so.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, screamin said:

I couldn't use that link at work, so I looked up one on youtube that proclaimed itself brightened for easy visibility, and all I can say is, it doesn't look that way to me. Of course, I only have a youtube video on an office desktop, but all I can see between Tyrion and Sansa is blackness, not a weapon being passed. Not to mention that the knife we see when Sansa raises it on the left looks MUCH shorter than the knife Tyrion raises on the right when he gets up (and he'd be much better at making a dirty joke about it than I am).

To put an end to Knifegate, here's a still from the episode where you can see that Tyrion had his own knife tucked into his belt. There was no weapon passing (and it would have been awkward to pass a weapon anyway since Tyrion was holding the hand of Sansa's that was closest to him at the time).

[Drogo]

33 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

To put an end to Knifegate, here's a still from the episode where you can see that Tyrion had his own knife tucked into his belt. There was no weapon passing (and it would have been awkward to pass a weapon anyway since Tyrion was holding the hand of Sansa's that was closest to him at the time).

And the moon of my life just let me know the HBO official recap says the same. 

Accepted.  If that's the case, all prior points remain except that now Tyrion and Sansa are useless/cowardly. 

[MissLucas]

Look, if even the Hound gets overwhelmed for a minute or two by what's going on I'm more than willing to cut Sansa and Tyrion some slack. And has anybody noticed that the crypts are actually full of weapons? There are plenty of swords for the taking - sure they're not Valyrian steel or dragonglass but good enough to hack away a few limbs and slow down the attack. 

And since I know how this is going:

How can Sansa call herself a leader??? She should have gotten up on one of those plinths, pulling a Henry V at Agincourt and tell all the people in the crypt to grab one of those ancestral swords and go down fighting at her side.

There, saved us all some time.