Sansa Stark: A Direwolf In Sheep's Clothing?

[Bryce Lynch]

I wonder what happens to Sansa's approval rating in the North, after the battle of Winterfell.   

The Dragon Queen, who she was openly somewhat hostile towards, sacrificed many thousands of her troops and put her own life on the line to help win the battle.  Also, the scariest of her "foreign savages" bravely rode first into battle and gave their lives.

Lady Lyanna Mormont, a girl of about 13, fought in the battle, charged a wight giant and died while slaying him.

Brienne of Tarth led the left flank and fought heroically throughout the battle.   

And of course, Sansa's baby sister killed dozens of wights and then killed them all by killing the Night King.

Meanwhile, Sansa was hiding in the crypts with the children, a eunuch and her Lanister ex?-husband. 

I'm not saying Sansa should have been doing anything else or she did anything wrong.  She is not cut out for combat.  She is a valuable thinker and administrator, but not a soldier.  But, the Northerners who value courage so highly might see her as weak, compared to the other 4 heroic women, and her stock might drop in their eyes.   

[screamin]

2 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Meanwhile, Sansa was hiding in the crypts with the children, a eunuch and her Lanister ex?-husband. 

I'm not saying Sansa should have been doing anything else or she did anything wrong.  She is not cut out for combat.  She is a valuable thinker and administrator, but not a soldier.  But, the Northerners who value courage so highly might see her as weak, compared to the other 4 heroic women, and her stock might drop in their eyes.   

Quite possibly, though she did fight in the crypts, as per that deleted scene. Regardless, she was never actually first in the North's esteem for the ruler's spot. Jon came first, because he's a man who fought, so things are not really different from what they were previously.

[Hana Chan]

I can understand why the North prizes people with martial experience, given that they live in the most remote and hostile region of Westeros and the Lord of Winterfell is also supposed to be Warder of the North. Other houses, like Mormont, actually encourage women to take up arms training. It's rather telling that the only other heads of house that we've seen that are women in the north were the Mormonts (both Lyanna and her mother were warriors) and Karstark (we saw Alys Karstark armed and leading fighters). 

Having a woman running a major house that has zero martial experience does not seem to be the norm in the north so I think it's entirely understandable why the Northern Lords chose Jon as KITN over Sansa (despite her being Ned's oldest trueborn child still living). Especially after the past few years of war. Were Sansa more like Arya or her Aunt Lyanna rather her mother, she would very probably be viewed more favorably as a leader in the North. 

[dirtypop90]

5 hours ago, screamin said:

Quite possibly, though she did fight in the crypts, as per that deleted scene. Regardless, she was never actually first in the North's esteem for the ruler's spot. Jon came first, because he's a man who fought, so things are not really different from what they were previously.

I agree...I think the North will see her how they've always seen her. Their fondness of her is really because she's one of them, her name, her parents, Rob.  Has little to do with anything she's done or hasn't done.  I don't see that changing.

[Katsullivan]

6 hours ago, screamin said:

Quite possibly, though she did fight in the crypts, as per that deleted scene.

No deleted scene, just  Sophie and Turner joking around in-between set-ups, pretending to catch a wight - as she literally says in the video.

It's interesting though how the moment this clip appeared on twitter, Sansa stans latched on it to defend Sansa. After making such a strong case about how Sansa didn't need to use the dragon-glass Arya gave her to defend the people of the North.

It's almost as if ... deep down, everyone knows that there is something inherently indefensible about Sansa, Lady of Winterfell, crouching in a corner clutching the only weapon that could have made a difference, praying that the magical zombies she didn't believe in would kill every woman, child and/or old person - Northern people, her people - before they got to her. 

Smartest person in Westeros: doesn't know how to use a knife. 

Edited April 30, 2019 by Katsullivan

[Katsullivan]

On 4/29/2019 at 12:58 PM, Smad said:

Sansa's continued praise of Tyrion is just as forced and stupid as everyone else who continues to ride the Tyrion love train. So he didn't rape her, big whoop. That's common human decency. Of course he comes off as the best when your only other comparisons are Joffrey and Ramsey. Are those two really the bar we want to apply here? That's ridiculous. And lets not forget that other than not raping her the only other thing he did that Sansa is aware of is interrupting her public beating in the KL court. But did he ever help her escape her imprisonment in KL? No. So this continued praise of 'good man Tyrion' is nothing but Benioff using his self-insert character to heap praise upon himself. If Sansa ends up with Tyrion it's not because it makes sense (it doesn't), it's because Tyrion (Benioff) is the best thing ever. And considering they already had Sansa raped in part as punishment for her not swooning over him and not falling into bed with him, this is also skeevy as all get out.

I wish I could give this a 1000 likes. The writing was on the Wall from the minute they took away her agency on her wedding and had her kneel. 

[Smad]

54 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

I wish I could give this a 1000 likes. The writing was on the Wall from the minute they took away her agency on her wedding and had her kneel.

Can you imagine if they had done that in the show? So many people hate Sansa for not kneeling in the books. And there it's even worse for Sansa. She is younger, she is literally told she would get married 5 seconds before it happens, Tyrion wants to marry her for power and even though he doesn't rape her, he gets awfully grabby.

If they hate a 12 year old child prisoner for not kneeling when being forced to marry the family that killed hers which legally allows one of them to rape her...can you imagine the hate for show Sansa because show Tyrion is SO GOOD he's a saint?

1 hour ago, Katsullivan said:

Smartest person in Westeros: doesn't know how to use a knife. 

To Arya. No one else has called her 'smartest person in Westeros'. And lets face it, Arya isn't right in the head. And she also suffered memory loss as last Season proved. So Arya's judgement is not something one should take very seriously.

[screamin]

1 hour ago, Katsullivan said:

No deleted scene, just  Sophie and Turner joking around in-between set-ups, pretending to catch a wight - as she literally says in the video.

She said that they were pretending to catch a wight with finger "guns" - while in the scene with them attacking a wight, they were definitely not using finger guns. 

1 hour ago, Katsullivan said:

It's interesting though how the moment this clip appeared on twitter, Sansa stans latched on it to defend Sansa....It's almost as if ... deep down, everyone knows that there is something inherently indefensible about Sansa, Lady of Winterfell, crouching in a corner clutching the only weapon that could have made a difference, praying that the magical zombies she didn't believe in would kill every woman, child and/or old person - Northern people, her people - before they got to her.

We all saw Sansa and Tyrion get up from their hiding place, weapons in hand, even though the wights had not found them - which they would not have done IF they were praying that everyone else would be killed before the wights got to them. That didn't come from a behind the scenes clip - we saw it. 

Quote

Smartest person in Westeros: doesn't know how to use a knife. 

There's that misquote again. Arya didn't say Sansa was the smartest person in Westeros, she  said that she was the smartest person she'd ever met - and since she didn't do IQ tests on every single person she ever met, she presumably means people she interacted with enough to get some idea of their intelligence. Since you disagree with Arya, who do you think Arya met AND knew well enough to know how smart they are that Arya SHOULD have named as the smartest instead?

Edited May 1, 2019 by screamin

[Oscirus]

30 minutes ago, screamin said:

Since you disagree with Arya, who do you think Arya met AND knew well enough to know how smart they are that Arya SHOULD have named as the smartest instead?

I don't really disagree with the sentiment here but I had to do it. Tywin would almost definitely fit.

[screamin]

7 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

I don't really disagree with the sentiment here but I had to do it. Tywin would almost definitely fit.

There's certainly an argument to be made, though I think his vanity and pride finally made him overreach. But even if we evaluate his intelligence apart from the flaws that undid him, I don't think Arya could make herself be objective enough to give him credit, especially considering how close she came to eyewitnessing the Red Wedding.

[Advance35]

I still don't feel Sansa did anything wrong.  Before power and thrones and titles, Sansa's priority has been survival.  Whatever situation she finds herself in, she wants to live through, no matter what.  The only situation that made her even entertain the idea of not striving for survival, was when she was in the custody of Ramsay Bolton.

Those things in the crypt were moving pretty fast.  There are characters who are willing to jump into the Frey (Lyanna Mormont, Jorah, Alys Karstark, Theon) brave as they are, their all dead. It's all over.  Had Sansa not hid, she would have to come to a similar end.

She doesn't have plot armor or a supernatural skill set.  She's a normal young woman who was in out of her element and in over her head.

Most people said Sansa was unlikely to make it out of Season 5 alive and here she is 3 episodes from the end, still striving and surviving.  I say she should keep doing what she's been doing.  Sansa's been in the center of a lot of the series action and has lived to tell the tale.

*Hat Tip*

Edited May 1, 2019 by Advance35

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, screamin said:

There's that misquote again. Arya didn't say Sansa was the smartest person in Westeros, she  said that she was the smartest person she'd ever met - and since she didn't do IQ tests on every single person she ever met, she presumably means people she interacted with enough to get some idea of their intelligence. Since you disagree with Arya, who do you think Arya met AND knew well enough to know how smart they are that Arya SHOULD have named as the smartest instead?

I also tend to think that when Arya says "smart" she's referring to something other than strict cleverness or ability to outthink and manipulate. I don't remember the exact context, but iirc she was telling Jon to listen to Sansa's opinion instead of just dismissing it. For instance, Arya probably knows that Tywin and Cersei have outplayed people on a higher level than Sansa has, but she would consider Sansa smarter (or wiser) because Sansa cares more about people and has better intentions.

I'm sure there are plenty of times when Arya said Sansa was the stupidest person she ever met, especially when they were younger. So I think her words are also influenced by her coming to appreciate the ways they're different and talk about it in more exaggerated language.

[dirtypop90]

I also don’t think Sansa did anything wrong. Sansa fans likely jumped on the clip because they are sick of the constant  Sansa backlash. I haven’t been a part of the online community for long but I think it is odd how the same people that say Sansa is useless, the worst etc can’t stop talking about her and discuss her more than the characters they actually like. It is...interesting. Has it always been this way? I joined the fandom way late in the game so I had no clue all of this was going on.

[arty]

46 minutes ago, screamin said:

There's certainly an argument to be made, though I think his vanity and pride finally made him overreach.

While Tywin might very well be smarter than Sansa, he's highly overrated IMO. There's a podcast that I listen to and the hosts love to say of Tywin, "Tywin won because he cheated!" I can't find the lie in that statement.

Also, he went about securing his legacy, his family name, "the only thing that matters" in the most foolish way possible. The story where we are now has one of his children putting a hit out on the other two who have turned their backs on her. Contrast that with "honorable fool" Ned Stark whose remaining children & "children" reunited & were willing to die to save his home, his homeland and each other. 

There are a lot of reasons why I look askance at Sansa and Tyrion as an endgame couple, but one of them is because I can't bear the thought of Tywin's line continuing through a Stark. When Sam writes ASOIAF, I want him to give Tywin the loser's edit.

[merrick715]

4 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Tywin would almost definitely fit.

Tywin " I didn't notice that my twins have been banging each other since puberty" Lannister. That Tywin Lannister?
 

Quote

I wonder what happens to Sansa's approval rating in the North, after the battle of Winterfell.   

The Northern Lords know Sansa can't fight. The only person that Sansa being battlefield would have helped was the Night King. Homegirl would have been dead in five minutes. People keep bringing up her actions during Blackwater, but if I remember correctly, most people weren't saying she was brave and showed leadership potential. 

Edited May 1, 2019 by merrick715

[ShellsandCheese]

5 hours ago, screamin said:

She said that they were pretending to catch a wight with finger "guns" - while in the scene with them attacking a wight, they were definitely not using finger guns. 

We all saw Sansa and Tyrion get up from their hiding place, weapons in hand, even though the wights had not found them - which they would not have done IF they were praying that everyone else would be killed before the wights got to them. That didn't come from a behind the scenes clip - we saw it. 

There's that misquote again. Arya didn't say Sansa was the smartest person in Westeros, she  said that she was the smartest person she'd ever met - and since she didn't do IQ tests on every single person she ever met, she presumably means people she interacted with enough to get some idea of their intelligence. Since you disagree with Arya, who do you think Arya met AND knew well enough to know how smart they are that Arya SHOULD have named as the smartest instead?

Clearly, the smartest person Arya ever met was Tywin Lannister! Also, Tywin clearly knew what was going on with his kids, he just didn’t want to admit it or acknowledge it. But he knew. 

Seriously though, I do think that throw away line was dumb. And it’s another case of the writers telling instead of showing. I have yet to see anything from Sansa during the duration of this show that shows her to be particularly smart, clever, or intelligent. Perhaps there are examples that I’ve missed but I don’t think so. And it’s not a knock against Sansa, I’m not saying she’s dumb but again I’m still waiting on something, anything that illustrates how smart she is on the show. 

ETA: Margaery Tyrell was incredibly smart too, good at reading people, and good at playing the game. If not for the idiot high Septon, she’d probably still be Queen of Westeros. 

Edited May 1, 2019 by ShellsandCheese

[merrick715]

6 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

Clearly, the smartest person Arya ever met was Tywin Lannister! Also, Tywin clearly knew what was going on with his kids, he just didn’t want to admit it or acknowledge it. But he knew. 

That's what I thought until Cersei confronted him with the truth.  I think he truly thought they were just rumors started by jealous haters of House Lannister. Wouldn't it be worse if he did know, and did nothing? 

18 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

Perhaps there are examples that I’ve missed but I don’t think so. And it’s not a knock against Sansa, I’m not saying she’s dumb but again I’m still waiting on something, anything that illustrates how smart she is on the show. 

I'm truly curious.  Is there anything the show could realistically do, in the time left, that would change your opinion of Sansa's intelligence?  

[anamika]

8 hours ago, screamin said:

She said that they were pretending to catch a wight with finger "guns" - while in the scene with them attacking a wight, they were definitely not using finger guns. 

We all saw Sansa and Tyrion get up from their hiding place, weapons in hand, even though the wights had not found them - which they would not have done IF they were praying that everyone else would be killed before the wights got to them. That didn't come from a behind the scenes clip - we saw it.  

In the story the show told us, these two hid behind the crypt, held hands and waited it out, not helping anyone till Arya took out the NK.

The show films several takes and versions of each scene, so that the show runners can pick and chose which version they want to go with in the episode. That's why it took so long to film this season. And this is the version they went with.

2 hours ago, merrick715 said:

I'm truly curious.  Is there anything the show could realistically do, in the time left, that would change your opinion of Sansa's intelligence?  

There's a lot she can do to be intelligent.  For instance she can use the google at her disposal - Bran - to get a lot of information. She can actually get to know Dany. She can fake pretend to be nice to Dany instead of behaving like a childish brat and make snide remarks to score points. She could help Jon unite the North against the AOTD instead of making his job harder. I cannot think of one smart thing that Sansa has done on the show.

D&D's writing does not allow for her or any character to be intelligent really. Everyone is really stupid. The only difference with Sansa is that other characters walk around calling her smart and it stands out because she's as dumb as everyone else.

And sorry, but are folks seriously making the argument that Sansa is smarter than Tywin?!

9 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

t's interesting though how the moment this clip appeared on twitter, Sansa stans latched on it to defend Sansa. After making such a strong case about how Sansa didn't need to use the dragon-glass Arya gave her to defend the people of the North.

Sansa is a Lady dammit. She did not have to do any fighting. Oh, here's a filming video of the show - look the actress comes out from behind the crypts in this documentary about how the show is made. Sansa fought the wights and defended her people.

7 hours ago, Advance35 said:

Sansa's priority has been survival.

Agree. At this point, Sansa is looking out for number one and sitting tight in the crypt was all about making sure she made it out alive.

Edited May 1, 2019 by anamika

[GraceK]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

In the story the show told us, these two hid behind the crypt, held hands and waited it out, not helping anyone till Arya took out the NK.

The show films several takes and versions of each scene, so that the show runners can pick and chose which version they want to go with in the episode. That's why it took so long to film this season. And this is the version they went with.

There's a lot she can do to be intelligent.  For instance she can use the google at her disposal - Bran - to get a lot of information. She can actually get to know Dany. She can fake pretend to be nice to Dany instead of behaving like a childish brat and make snide remarks to score points. She could help Jon unite the North against the AOTD instead of making his job harder. I cannot think of one smart thing that Sansa has done on the show.

D&D's writing does not allow for her or any character to be intelligent really. Everyone is really stupid. The only difference with Sansa is that other characters walk around calling her smart and it stands out because she's as dumb as everyone else.

And sorry, but are folks seriously making the argument that Sansa is smarter than Tywin?!

Sansa is a Lady dammit. She did not have to do any fighting. Oh, here's a filming video of the show - look the actress comes out from behind the crypts in this documentary about how the show is made. Sansa fought the wights and defended her people.

Agree. At this point, Sansa is looking out for number one and sitting tight in the crypt was all about making sure she made it out alive.

Yes !!!thank coldness I’m not alone!

[LadyPenelope]

7 hours ago, dirtypop90 said:

I also don’t think Sansa did anything wrong. Sansa fans likely jumped on the clip because they are sick of the constant  Sansa backlash. I haven’t been a part of the online community for long but I think it is odd how the same people that say Sansa is useless, the worst etc can’t stop talking about her and discuss her more than the characters they actually like. It is...interesting. Has it always been this way? I joined the fandom way late in the game so I had no clue all of this was going on.

Yes. It has always been like this. From the first book, Sansa and Arya were set up as opposites - the spunky, anachronistic tomboy who wants to fight and hates sewing, and the beautiful, delicate lady who just wants to marry a handsome prince. And because we have fundamentally been socialised to prefer women who display stereotypically masculine traits, everyone loves Arya and hates Sansa. Then she told Cersei about Ned’s plans to leave KL (because she was 12, and naive, and in love) and that pretty much sealed her fate with a vocal section of the fans.

On the other hand, her show characterisation over the last season has been odd at best. For somebody who lives by the maxim that ‘a lady’s armour is courtesy’, she sure has been struggling to show any to Dany or her people. And I do wish she had had a scene in the crypts other than sitting in silence. Maybe not singing songs like at Blackwater, but she could have given some rousing message about the strength of the North. 

[merrick715]

2 hours ago, anamika said:

And sorry, but are folks seriously making the argument that Sansa is smarter than Tywin?!

12 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

I only mentioned Tywin because posters keep mentioning Arya meeting Tywin, and how Sansa couldn't possibly be smarter than Tywin. The same Tywin who didn't realize his children have been having sex with each other, since puberty. 

12 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

t's interesting though how the moment this clip appeared on twitter, Sansa stans latched on it to defend Sansa. After making such a strong case about how Sansa didn't need to use the dragon-glass Arya gave her to defend the people of the North.

It's almost as if ... deep down, everyone knows that there is something inherently indefensible about Sansa, Lady of Winterfell, crouching in a corner clutching the only weapon that could have made a difference, praying that the magical zombies she didn't believe in would kill every woman, child and/or old person - Northern people, her people - before they got to her. 

I'm just going to speak for myself, and not the entire Sansa standom, but I posted that clip because I found it interesting. I don't want to make any wild assumptions about other posters though.

Edited May 1, 2019 by merrick715

[anamika]

4 minutes ago, merrick715 said:

I only mentioned Tywin because posters keep mentioning Arya meeting Tywin, and how Sansa couldn't possibly be smarter than Tywin. The same Tywin who didn't realize his children have been having sex with each other, since puberty. 

So are you saying that Sansa is smarter than Tywin?

[merrick715]

41 minutes ago, anamika said:

So are you saying that Sansa is smarter than Tywin?

I'm saying I don't understand why people see Tywin, as this towering intellect. I don't understand why Arya saying Sansa is the smartest person she knows leads to this type of discussion. When Sansa said that Arya is the strongest person she knows, no one was asking how could Arya be the strongest person she knows, when Sansa's met the Mountain.

[anamika]

31 minutes ago, merrick715 said:

When Sansa said that Arya is the strongest person she knows, no one was asking how could Arya be the strongest person she knows, when Sansa's met the Mountain.

Maybe because people understand that when someone calls a character 'strong' that does not equate to their physical strength? Does strong female character refer to their muscle mass and how much they can bench press?

I just think it's utterly ridiculous to even compare a 50 year old Tywin Lannister - former Lord of Casterly Rock, Shield of Lannisport and Warden of the West, the head of House Lannister, hand of kings, one of the most powerful men in Westeros considered to be calculating and intelligent to Sansa Stark. That would actually be a disservice to Sansa.

Did Tywin make mistakes? Most definitely. He was narrow minded and even short sighted and that's ultimately going to lead to the destruction of his house. Ned is considered to be stupid by everyone and even now the North is rallying to save Arya in the books.

But Tywin was a man in his fifties with a whole lot of experience, ruthlessness and political astuteness that got him to where he was. Sansa has not even begun.

If we are comparing mistakes then Sansa thought that Joffrey, Cersei, Tyrells and LF were all good guys and trusted them till she realized otherwise, she distrusted Brienne and thought she could outwit Ramsay Bolton and needed to be rescued by Theon and Brienne, then she lied to Jon about the Vale and undermined him and shit talked their much needed ally Dany - what in any of this makes Arya think that Sansa is the smartest?

Both Arya and the show need to be mocked for that line of dialogue. Forget Twyin, I think even Yoren - the NW brother who got Arya out of KL - is smarter than Sansa.

Edited May 1, 2019 by anamika

[merrick715]

3 minutes ago, anamika said:

Both Arya and the show need to be mocked for that line of dialogue. Forget Twyin, I think even Yoren - the NW brother who got Arya out of KL - is smarter than Sansa.

Respectfully, I think we should agree to disagree about this. Neither one of us will be changing each other's minds about Sansa, or Tywin, and their respective intelligence.

[MissLucas]

1 hour ago, LadyPenelope said:

Yes. It has always been like this. From the first book, Sansa and Arya were set up as opposites - the spunky, anachronistic tomboy who wants to fight and hates sewing, and the beautiful, delicate lady who just wants to marry a handsome prince. And because we have fundamentally been socialised to prefer women who display stereotypically masculine traits, everyone loves Arya and hates Sansa. Then she told Cersei about Ned’s plans to leave KL (because she was 12, and naive, and in love) and that pretty much sealed her fate with a vocal section of the fans.

On the other hand, her show characterisation over the last season has been odd at best. For somebody who lives by the maxim that ‘a lady’s armour is courtesy’, she sure has been struggling to show any to Dany or her people. And I do wish she had had a scene in the crypts other than sitting in silence. Maybe not singing songs like at Blackwater, but she could have given some rousing message about the strength of the North. 

I felt pretty neutral towards Sansa in the beginning but the extreme hatred against the character started to bug me so I payed more attention to her and how she's written. As you pointed out her initial characterization goes against the zeitgeist add to that that from the main female players left standing she is along with Cersei (debatable because of Qyburn) without any magical backing. So she's written or rather outlined as a character with the potential to undermine some well-established genre tropes. That's a structural explanation for the hatred against her.

Not helping is the extremely clunky writing. Remember the emergence of Dark Sansa who managed to save her and Littlefinger's neck back in the Eyrie? She disappeared afterwards and was led into the marriage with Ramsay like a lamb to the slaughterhouse.

After a season of complete and pretty exploitative victimization she emerges again and has a fierce moment when she pushes Jon into leading the campaign to free Winterfell. And from her onward she's written (again) opaque and convoluted to an increasingly frustrated degree. She makes good points about Ramsay and his mindgames and her insistence that Jon needs more troops is correct but there never was a good reason why she kept the Knights of the Vale a secret. It was all done because the writers wanted to have a 'horns of Rohan' moment during the Battle of the Bastards. Maybe they thought it would also be an awesome moment for Sansa - but fandom thought differently.

And history repeated itself during last season's plot involving Sansa, Arya and Littlefinger. Again characterization was sacrificed because the writers wanted to have a big moment when Littlefinger meets his doom.

There's no indication things will change this season. It's clear that the writers are preparing for a big confrontation between Daenerys and her ambitions and Sansa's non-compromising stance when it comes to Northern independence. Since there are only a couple of episodes left there's no room for subtlety anymore (even if the skills were there) - so it's all 'damn the torpedos' in the writers room. They wanted to reinforce Sansa's position (enter 'dragon queen') and to hint at a probably fragile alliance with Tyrion (short exchange between these two). Once that mission was accomplished there was no room left to further delve into the crypt scene. 

That's all pretty frustrating for both camps of the Sansa-debate.

[screamin]

3 hours ago, anamika said:

In the story the show told us, these two hid behind the crypt, held hands and waited it out, not helping anyone till Arya took out the NK.

Okay, so in the version of the story you saw, you didn't see Sansa in the hiding place take out her dagger, look at Tyrion, who kisses her hand before they start to get up instead of waiting it out? You're saying that didn't happen? I'm pretty sure it did.

Quote

And sorry, but are folks seriously making the argument that Sansa is smarter than Tywin?!

That wasn't the question. The question was whether Arya would think Tywin was smarter than Sansa. And I don't think she'd be willing to look beyond the horror of the Red Wedding where her mother and brother died, and appreciate it purely for its cleverness, and give him credit for it. She'd consider it one more atrocity of the many he'd committed. all of which contributed to his self-constructed doom. 

[anamika]

39 minutes ago, screamin said:

Okay, so in the version of the story you saw, you didn't see Sansa in the hiding place take out her dagger, look at Tyrion, who kisses her hand before they start to get up instead of waiting it out? You're saying that didn't happen? I'm pretty sure it did.

So?  Not understanding what you are saying. They hid there as folks were getting slaughtered, sounds kept coming closer and they raised their daggers ready to defend themselves. Some folks have even likened it to a suicide pact. Sansa would have definitely defended herself.

The criticism is over her not trying to protect some of those women and children cause she was the only one with the right weapon there. In a world were one handed Jaime and Sam were able to fight off hordes of wights, she would have done just fine. The show just did not write it for her. 

39 minutes ago, screamin said:

That wasn't the question. The question was whether Arya would think Tywin was smarter than Sansa. And I don't think she'd be willing to look beyond the horror of the Red Wedding where her mother and brother died, and appreciate it purely for its cleverness, and give him credit for it. She'd consider it one more atrocity of the many he'd committed. all of which contributed to his self-constructed doom. 

Sorry, but why would not Arya think that the guy who orchestrated the Red Wedding and ended the war in one fell swoop is smart? Just because she's sad? 

Arya should think even Yoren was smarter than Sansa consider the bone headed things Sansa haz been doing. 

Hell, considering how much she loves her father, Arya should think that Ned was the smartest person she's met.

Edited May 1, 2019 by anamika

[Advance35]

Quote

I felt pretty neutral towards Sansa in the beginning but the extreme hatred against the character started to bug me so I payed more attention to her and how she's written.

The fandom pathological hatred is actually what turned me into a fan as well.  That and I just don't like the swords and sorcery nonsense.  That part of the story puts me to sleep (last episode being the exception).  Though in retrospect, The Night King and all that beyond the wall tripe is over, so, it's really the Throne that matters.  Titles and Power matters now more then ever.

I always thought Sansa didn't tell Jon about Littlefingers forces because she didn't want to pull LF into their reclamation of Winterfell.  She wanted LF away from her and out of her life.  Once she couldn't come up with another solution and victory was beyond Jon Snow, she knew she had to reach out.

Sansa receives a lot of criticism for not displaying her courtesies and pulling out her best Margaery Tyrell with Dany and otheres, but look at how it ended for Margaery.  Olenna said it herself, as well loved as Margaery was, by Nobles and Common Folk, she's nothing but ash now.  Being nice (on the surface) didn't save her. 

In Sansa's view, someone she hates (Cersei) is the one that rose to the top and claimed the Throne, destroying any and everyone that stood in her way.  In other words, Cersei won.   By being cold, unrelenting, unending in her selfishness and callousness.  The Tyrells saved her and her House during the Battle of Blackwater and Cersei was still unrelenting in her grasp on power.   House Tyrell is extinct.

Sansa's still young but I can understand her thinking, "Hey, much as I hate her, Is Cersei wrong?"  I doubt we'll get dialogue but I can see Sansa thinking alliances are surface only.  Nothing she's ever seen has disproved that.   Dany has everything Sansa wants, Power, Protection, Answers to nobody.  Sansa gives Dany the strict margin necessary, not an inch more.  I understand her feelings.

Quote

 I haven’t been a part of the online community for long but I think it is odd how the same people that say Sansa is useless, the worst etc can’t stop talking about her and discuss her more than the characters they actually like. It is...interesting. Has it always been this way? I joined the fandom way late in the game so I had no clue all of this was going on.

Oh boy.  I think the show has helped the character gain more fans than haters but......yep.  In some quarters she is the most reviled and evil character ever drawn by literature.  Everything that's ever gone wrong can somehow be laid at her feet.  And if she isn't nice or worshiping fan favorites.........Here go hell come.

Edited May 1, 2019 by Advance35

[merrick715]

9 minutes ago, anamika said:

They hid there as folks were getting slaughtered, sounds kept coming closer and they raised their daggers ready to defend themselves.

It was utter chaos in that crypt, and everyone was trying to hide. That's why we the next scene in the crypt is Sansa and Tyrion finding Varys, Missandei, and other random hiding. They were going to try and fight. It's not like Sansa and Tyrion were just chilling behind the sarcophagus waiting for everyone to be slaughtered. before they made their move. That scene between Tyrion and Sansa lasted seconds.

19 minutes ago, anamika said:

In a world were one handed Jaime and Sam were able to fight off hordes of wights, she would have done just fine. The show just did not write it for her. 

 Jamie and Sam had swords. Sansa had the Westeosi equivalent of a prison shank. If Sansa somehow found a sword and started hacking the wrights to bits, people would have complained that she had no weapons training, and it was just done to prop Sansa at the expense of other characters.

[QuinnM]

3 minutes ago, merrick715 said:

It was utter chaos in that crypt, and everyone was trying to hide. That's why we the next scene in the crypt is Sansa and Tyrion finding Varys, Missandei, and other random hiding. They were going to try and fight. It's not like Sansa and Tyrion were just chilling behind the sarcophagus waiting for everyone to be slaughtered. before they made their move. That scene between Tyrion and Sansa lasted seconds.

The final shot of the crypt after the dead fell shows Tyrion and Sansa standing in the arch. Slowly everyone else approaches them from behind, where they were hiding, including Missandei.  So it was Tyrion and Sansa as the only defense and everyone else hiding in fear.

[screamin]

52 minutes ago, anamika said:

So?  Not understanding what you are saying. They hid there as folks were getting slaughtered, sounds kept coming closer and they raised their daggers ready to defend themselves.

They stood up. While the battle was still raging. Standing up defeats the purpose of hiding and cowering, which was what you were accusing them of having done till the end of the battle.

52 minutes ago, anamika said:

Sorry, but why would not Arya think that the guy who orchestrated the Red Wedding and ended the war in one fell swoop is smart? Just because she's sad?

Sad? You think what happened to Arya was just sad? I think it was a formative trauma. And I don't think the Arya we know is totally capable of laying aside that kind of emotions and looking at things dispassionately. "Yeah, me witnessing my brother's body sewn to the head of his wolf and knowing they'd just stabbed my mother to death was upsetting, but looking beyond that I really appreciate the strategic masterstroke, even if it didn't quite end the war." IMO, that's no more in character than Arya putting the Hound on her list, and then immediately calmly deciding to take it off again because he was only acting on orders when he killed Mycah.

IMO, at the point Arya made her remark about the smartest person she's met, if she thought of Tywin the defeated enemy at all, she'd think of him as someone she'd tricked herself, someone who'd made so many enemies with his vile actions that one of them finally got him (and she only wishes it was her). On the level of emotional intelligence, I myself think that Tywin wasn't that smart - and both types count in the end result.

Edited May 1, 2019 by screamin

[anamika]

50 minutes ago, merrick715 said:

It was utter chaos in that crypt, and everyone was trying to hide. That's why we the next scene in the crypt is Sansa and Tyrion finding Varys, Missandei, and other random hiding. They were going to try and fight. It's not like Sansa and Tyrion were just chilling behind the sarcophagus waiting for everyone to be slaughtered. before they made their move. That scene between Tyrion and Sansa lasted seconds.

Come on now. They were sitting there exchanging looks and making googly eyes at each other and holding hands for pretty much 30 seconds while people were being slaughtered behind them.

But okay if your interpretation is that Sansa went out there bravely with her dragon glass dagger and killed several wights and saved the dying children and in the end shot stood there with perfect hair and make up and not a scratch despite her brave victory, I guess that's a valid interpretation to have.

50 minutes ago, merrick715 said:

Jamie and Sam had swords.

Sam had a sword? News to me.

Look, it's perfectly okay for Sansa to not fight. I tend to mock her because the writing and the actress herself overhypes Sansa to absurd levels and then when the character does things like this, it's easy to mock it. Sophie Turner calling Sansa the 'Warrior of Winterfell' and the 'True leader of Winterfell' etc.

Sansa going all 'I am not going to abandon my people' and then complaining about Dany to Tyrion when Dany is out there giving it her all fighting for her people and then finally hiding behind a crypt when women and children are getting killed....

Sansa was looking out for number one and that's an admirable trait. I will say she is more sensible than Lyanna Mormont who stupidly died fighting a giant instead of running away. I would say she's more sensible than Jon yelling at a frigging ice dragon.

30 minutes ago, screamin said:

They stood up. While the battle was still raging. Standing up defeats the purpose of hiding and cowering, which was what you were accusing them of having done till the end of the battle.

They stood up ready to face the wights about to attack them. I was talking about before while the slaughter was going on. And no, I don't think these guys are cowards. Just more interested in self-preservation.

30 minutes ago, screamin said:

Yeah, me witnessing my brother's body sewn to the head of his wolf and knowing they'd just stabbed my mother to death was upsetting, but looking beyond that I really appreciate the strategic masterstroke."

Are you saying that characters do not recognize the smartness of their enemies after getting defeated? And consider those enemies to be stupid because they are traumatized? .....

30 minutes ago, screamin said:

IMO, at the point Arya made her remark about the smartest person she's met, if she thought of Tywin the defeated enemy at all, she'd think of him as someone she'd tricked herself, someone who'd made so many enemies with his vile actions that one of them finally got him (and she only wishes it was her). On the level of emotional intelligence, I myself think that Tywin wasn't that smart.

Clever people die all the time. That is in no way a measure of smartness. Does Arya think that every person who died is stupid? And Arya can trick Sansa anytime with her abilities. She just chooses not to.

Again what is it that Arya has seen Sansa do that makes her think that Sansa is currently smarter than Ned, Catelyn, Jon, Yoren, the Hound, Jaqen, Gendry, Tywin etc.?

As soon as Arya got to WF, she knew that LF was up to no good. This was despite spending just the one season with him. Sansa spend some 5 seasons knowing LF and everything he has done and was manipulated against her sister and needed Bran's help to figure out that LF is up to no good. During all this, Sansa encouraged disloyalty and resentment against Jon - which Arya saw and confronts her about.

Sansa finally coming to her senses and executing LF with Arya and Bran's help suddenly makes her the smartest person Arya has ever met? Really?

Edited May 1, 2019 by anamika

[merrick715]

Just now, QuinnM said:

The final shot of the crypt after the dead fell shows Tyrion and Sansa standing in the arch. Slowly everyone else approaches them from behind, where they were hiding, including Missandei.  So it was Tyrion and Sansa as the only defense and everyone else hiding in fear.

To be fair, Sansa did have a weapon. I wonder how the scene would've been received, if Arya never gave Sansa the dagger, before sending her to the crypts. It seems like it wasn't the initial plan for Sansa to be in crypts, and that's why we first see Sansa standing next to Arya, as the Dothraki got completely wiped out. In the second episode, Dany tells Tyrion to stay in the crypt, and we don't have a corresponding scene with Jon.  Although, I don't understand what Sansa was going to do in the battle. The only thing she would have contributed to the battle is increasing the Night King's army. 

23 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

Oh boy.  I think the show has helped the character gain more fans than haters but......yep.  In some quarters she is the most reviled and evil character ever drawn by literature.  Everything that's ever gone wrong can somehow be laid at her feet.  And if she isn't nice or worshiping fan favorites.........Here go hell come.

I see you're keeping it a 100.

[merrick715]

2 minutes ago, anamika said:

But okay if your interpretation is that Sansa went out there bravely with her dragon glass dagger and killed several wights and saved the dying children and in the end shot stood there with perfect hair and make up and not a scratch despite her brave victory, I guess that's a valid interpretation to have.

24 minutes ago, merrick715 said:

Thanks. I don't know what I would've done without you.

8 minutes ago, anamika said:

Sam had a sword? News to me.

 Look, it's perfectly okay for Sansa to not fight. I tend to mock her because the other characters, her fans and the actress herself overhypes her to absurd levels and then when the character does things like this, it's easy to mock it. Sophie Turner calling Sansa the 'Warrior of Winterfell' and the 'True leader of Winterfell' etc.

What weapon does Sam have? I know he gave the Tarly sword to Jorah, but I thought he had a similar weapon to the one Dany used when she was fighting side by side with Jorah. She picked up a random sword on the ground and was able to kill wrights, so I assume that it was made with dragonglass.  

[anamika]

6 minutes ago, merrick715 said:

What weapon does Sam have?

He had a dragon glass dagger. And killed several wights with it and survived.

6 minutes ago, merrick715 said:

Thanks. I don't know what I would've done without you.

You are welcome.

Edited May 1, 2019 by anamika

[merrick715]

9 minutes ago, anamika said:

He had a dragon glass dagger. And killed several wights with it and survived.

Huh, that doesn't seem very smart, unless the person who was handing out weapons, wanted Sam to die. I would've thought they armed him with something like the sword Dany used, or maybe an ax, especially since he was on the battlefield.

Edited May 1, 2019 by merrick715

[Katsullivan]

Quote

“We might have lost all. Even so, it was a close thing. If Sansa hadn’t come to me and told me all her father’s plans …“ (Cersei ACOK) 

‘but she was hardly innocent of betrayal; she had once spilled her own father’s plans to Cersei.’ (Tyrion ASOS) 

No one had given Cersei such a lovely gift since Sansa Stark had run to her to divulge Lord Eddard’s plans. (Cersei AFFC)

“Sansa played a role, certainly, but it would be unfair to put all the blame on her. But it would also be unfair to exonerate her.” GRRM [x]

“Sansa was the least sympathetic of the Starks in the first book; she has become more sympathetic, partly because she comes to accept responsibility for her part in her father’s death.” GRRM 

[screamin]

2 hours ago, anamika said:

They stood up ready to face the wights about to attack them.

Oh, so you know for a fact that there were wights about to attack them?  Wights that absolutely were about to discover their hiding place and make it useless, and that's the only reason they got up? Wights that they couldn't see? That WE couldn't see? I thought we were just told that we couldn't use anything except what we saw on the screen during the show as evidence. It seems like you're using spectral evidence with even less proof than a behind-the-scenes clip.

Quote

I was talking about before while the slaughter was going on.

IIRC, the slaughter did not stop while they were hiding.

2 hours ago, anamika said:

Clever people die all the time. That is in no way a measure of smartness. Does Arya think that every person who died is stupid? And Arya can trick Sansa anytime with her abilities. She just chooses not to.

When clever people die because of enemies they made absolutely unnecessarily (as Tywin did), that's an argument that maybe they weren't THAT clever. And does the fact that Arya can put on a mask and Sansa won't recognize her mean that Arya's cleverer than Sansa? She has skills that can deceive others. LF did too, and he deceived Arya with them - but in the end, not Sansa. That's probably the incident most on Arya's mind, it having happened most recently at the moment she spoke to Jon.

Edited May 1, 2019 by screamin

[LadyPenelope]

I like Book Sansa, and I don’t mind Show Sansa, but neither is my favourite. However, I don’t think this is a fair reading. She was a sheltered, naive, and yes, silly, little girl. She made a stupid decision, but I hardly think it was that shocking - she trusted Cersei and loved Joffrey, and she was a child. Dany has been on the run for her whole life, while Sansa has been coddled and taught to be gentle and trusting and ladylike. Robb might only be two years older, but I would say that his youthful mistakes were much more costly. Sansa made (IMO understandable) mistakes. She played a small part in Ned’s death, and suffered terribly for it. That doesn’t make her an evil, irredeemable bitch - it makes her human.

ETA: I also wanted to add that the male Starks were treated like men, from the beginning. Even Bran had to go and watch an execution and learn about how to be a lord. Sansa was not given any information. If Ned had told her anything about why he wanted to leave, that she couldn’t trust Cersei and why, etc., she might have listened. But she was treated like a child, so she behaved like a child.

Edited May 1, 2019 by LadyPenelope
ETA

[Constantinople]

Regarding Arya saying Sansa is the smartest person Arya ever met

• In more or less well adjusted families -- Catelyn's treatment of Jon being the exception - family members tend to give each other more credit than outsiders. So it's not surprising Arya is biased
   
• I believe Arya places a high value on survival. Sansa has survived so far, Tywin hasn't. And Sansa had much less to work with than Tywin
   
• In particular, I'm not sure how smart Arya would find someone who alienated his son so much that his son murdered him.
   
• Tywin also failed to interrogate Arya in Season 2. Tywin figured out Arya was a girl, figured out she was a Northerner, and suspected she wasn't a commoner because of her dicition and ability to read.  That doesn't mean Tywin should have concluded his cup bearer was Arya Stark, but there was something off about her. Which Tywin didn't bother to investigate

So I don't think Arya's statement about Sansa was, from Arya's perspective, crazy or out of line.

I didn't mention Jaime/Cersei and the Red Wedding because I'm not sure if Arya knows Tywin didn't know about Jaime/Cersei, and I don't know if Arya knows Tywin was behind the Red Wedding

Edited May 1, 2019 by Constantinople

[Katsullivan]

13 minutes ago, LadyPenelope said:

Robb might only be two years older, but I would say that his youthful mistakes were much more costly.

No offence, but Robb breaking down because he's been fighting a war for years and just found out that his two little brothers were brutally murdered because he trusted the wrong person - and deciding to marry a girl he "dishonoured"  ----- is vastly, vastly different from Sansa running off to betray her father because she didn't want to leave a horrible boy.

Quote

I hardly think it was that shocking - she trusted Cersei and loved Joffrey, and she was a child.

In Sansa's own words, she betrayed her father. This is something that Sansa herself even admits. Again:

Quote

“Sansa was the least sympathetic of the Starks in the first book; she has become more sympathetic, partly because she comes to accept responsibility for her part in her father’s death.” GRRM 

People forget that Cersei's plan was for Ned to take the Black —— if he confessed to “treason”. No one - not even Cersei - expected Joffrey to execute Ned. But Ned won’t have confessed to treason if Varys hadn’t used Sansa as leverage against him. The Lannisters would never have put Ned up for "trial" without Sansa as hostage because they knew that no force on earth would have forced a confession out of him. 
And with Sansa and Arya safe in Winterfell, Catelyn would not have freed Jaime Lannister in exchange for her daughters’s lives. If Ned had still been killed in King’s Landing, then Jaime Lannister would have been executed immediately by Robb. Even if he hadn’t, Jaime would still be a hostage and Robb won’t have lost the Karstark army which was a significant factor in his betrayal and death. 

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Note:

Keep the tone in here civil please. An opposing opinion is not a personal attack. 

[LadyPenelope]

14 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

No offence, but Robb breaking down because he's been fighting a war for years and just found out that his two little brothers were brutally murdered because he trusted the wrong person - and deciding to marry a girl he "dishonoured"  ----- is vastly, vastly different from Sansa running off to betray her father because she didn't want to leave a horrible boy.

In Sansa's own words, she betrayed her father. This is something that Sansa herself even admits. Again:

People forget that Cersei's plan was for Ned to take the Black —— if he confessed to “treason”. No one - not even Cersei - expected Joffrey to execute Ned. But Ned won’t have confessed to treason if Varys hadn’t used Sansa as leverage against him. The Lannisters would never have put Ned up for "trial" without Sansa as hostage because they knew that no force on earth would have forced a confession out of him. 
And with Sansa and Arya safe in Winterfell, Catelyn would not have freed Jaime Lannister in exchange for her daughters’s lives. If Ned had still been killed in King’s Landing, then Jaime Lannister would have been executed immediately by Robb. Even if he hadn’t, Jaime would still be a hostage and Robb won’t have lost the Karstark army which was a significant factor in his betrayal and death. 

No offence taken - it’s just a tv show. 😂 

Sure, as I said - the consequences turned out to be severe. A lot of people had a role to play in Ned’s death - if Jon Arryn hadn’t died (Littlefinger), if Bran hadn’t been pushed from the tower (Jaime), if an assassin hadn’t been sent to kill him (Joffrey), if Tyrion hadn’t been arrested (Cat), if Ned had agreed to work with Cersei or Renly, if Renly hadn’t then abandoned him, etc, etc. Sansa played her part, and was punished disproportionately for it. I still think what she did was understandable given her upbringing and the fact that she was left in the dark about why they had to leave KL. She made a mistake, she suffered for it, but I don’t think that one moment completely defines her as a character.

[Advance35]

Quote

She was a sheltered, naive, and yes, silly, little girl. She made a stupid decision, but I hardly think it was that shocking - she trusted Cersei and loved Joffrey, and she was a child.

I've always questioned whether Margaery Tyrell would have done any different.  Catelyn, comparatively, did only half the job she was supposed to.  Sansa knows how to dress and courtesy.  She can sew, dance (supposedly) and be charming (more so in the books) but was never schooled in political currents.  Margaery was taught everything Sansa was and THEN SOME.   But would Margaery have played it any different.  The Tyrells as a group are schooled and never would have put their House in the position of being at odds with the royal family.  At least not on behalf of an outsider.

But I thought the "I can't remember" thing was unintentionally shrewd.  At the time, she thought she would be marrying into the Royal Family, so antagonizing them would have made her a bad president but at the same time she didn't claim (publicly) that Arya was wrong.

Shrugs.

[dirtypop90]

I didn't realize this went all the way back to her wanting to marry Joffrey.  Goodness, she was just a little girl then. I can't say I was always a Sansa fan. I think in the beginning I loved Robb, Arya, Dany, and Margery when she came. I was indifferent towards Sansa. Sansa started to get my attention when she was at the Vale, and then I took a break from this show when I read about her rape. I still haven't watched that episode. Now I've returned and all I care about is the Starks staying alive. 

I agree the writers largely only care about pushing the plot forward at this point, and not consistent characterization. Which is why all we got from Sansa last episode was her conversation with Tyrion. I don't think this only hurts Sansa's character though. All the characters suffer from it. Jon didn't get a single great character moment last episode during his battle! TPTB didn't think that was important enough to spend time on.

[Stella]

1 hour ago, LadyPenelope said:

If Ned had told her anything about why he wanted to leave, that she couldn’t trust Cersei and why, etc., she might have listened. But she was treated like a child, so she behaved like a child.

This.

Ned bothered to explain a few things to Arya but did not with Sansa. She's 11 or 12 and her entire world is turning without any explanations from her father. But hey, he does give her a doll...

Also if you pay attention to the text she is suffering from the loss of Lady. 

[LadyPenelope]

27 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

I've always questioned whether Margaery Tyrell would have done any different.  Catelyn, comparatively, did only half the job she was supposed to.  Sansa knows how to dress and courtesy.  She can sew, dance (supposedly) and be charming (more so in the books) but was never schooled in political currents.  Margaery was taught everything Sansa was and THEN SOME.   But would Margaery have played it any different.  The Tyrells as a group are schooled and never would have put their House in the position of being at odds with the royal family.  At least not on behalf of an outsider.

But I thought the "I can't remember" thing was unintentionally shrewd.  At the time, she thought she would be marrying into the Royal Family, so antagonizing them would have made her a bad president but at the same time she didn't claim (publicly) that Arya was wrong.

Shrugs.

I think Margaery, and Sansa herself, would both have played it differently - if they had the relevant information. From Sansa’s perspective, her dad is suddenly being awful and forbidding her to be with the boy she loves - which is a classic romance trope. In another story, in another world, Sansa would be the romantic heroine. 

Thinking about how other characters would react reminds me that Cersei at the same age has a similar moment of defiance when she pulls strings to get Jaime onto the Kingsguard behind Tywin’s back. Similarly with Lysa. Arya repeatedly goes against what her parents ask her to do because she doesn’t want to play the role she is supposed to, Really, apart from Cat, most of them have moments of parental defiance - Sansa’s just happens to end in tragedy. 

[Constantinople]

Since this is a Book Talk thread it's worth noting that TV Sansa never warned TV Cersei about TV Ned's plans

[chrisvee]

I really don’t get all the TV!Sansa dislike. She’s endured unspeakable trauma and survived it, developing her political intelligence along the way and learning how to rule — not fight but rule.

Arya sent her to the crypts and she went so that someone from their family might survive. And despite not having trained to be a fighter when the fight actually came to her she stepped out to meet it. 

Edited May 1, 2019 by chrisvee