Sansa Stark: A Direwolf In Sheep's Clothing?

[Katsullivan]

4 hours ago, Stella said:

She is continually misinterpreted and misunderstood as a character to the point that practically every discussion eventually includes a litany of her "faults". And I'm not saying she has never made a mistake or is perfect by any stretch. 

But it's almost like there is some fear about this character's story getting in the way of some other (apparently more preferred) character(s). 

Technically, showSansa's story has been getting in the way of other people's stories since season 5 when D & D started basically writing their fan-fiction of the story with her in the center from the moment they created a traumatic, nonsensical cliche Rape-Revenge/Rape-As-Backstory/Rape-Means-Growth arc based on the actress finally being old enough to be in a sex scene. Since then everybody on the show that interacts with her had to lose brain cells, character development and pure common sense so that Sansa could be proven over and over to be the smartest person in Westeros. And most of her fans seem only invested in her "winning" (read: making everyone else around her look lesser) than in the fact that her arcs are plainly nonsensical.

(Even said "wins" are unearned. e.g. the "smartest person in Westeros" won't have needed her All-Seeing brother to realise that the man who pimped her out to her rapist is probably manipulating her again to turn against her family. Like to claim that a character that came this close - puts thumb to finger - to killing her own sister and needed a prophetic vision to change her course, is intelligent ... is so ridiculous that it just goes to show how invested fans are in Sansa that they're willing to accept such, frankly, bullshit.)

Of course, she's constantly misinterpreted and misunderstood - Sophie Turner herself has no idea what Sansa was thinking/planning wrt to the battle of the bastards, Arya-vs-Sansa, etc, etc, etc - and from what we've seen of the screenplay, the writers themselves have no idea. 

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And some general misunderstanding of GRRM's story in general I think.

The only people who misunderstand GRRM's stories are the writers who lost the plot when they literally ran out of the path laid out by the source material. I can't speak for anyone but I don't hate/resent/dislike Sansa because she's Sansa, I hate/resent/dislike the writing of Perfect-Sansa as much as the writing of Stupid-Jon, Evil-Dany, Psycho-Arya, Royce-Needs-Sansa-To-Prepare-For-The-Winter, Cersei-Trusting-Tyrion... ad nauseum!

Sansa's "arc" (and I use the word very, very loosely) is just the most obvious outcome of the fuckery this show has become.

Edited April 26, 2019 by Katsullivan

[Maximum Taco]

7 hours ago, merrick715 said:

Sophie was definitely, channeling her inner Lena, in the way she pronounced eat. She really stressed that t sound, and that's an acting choice I can't remember Sophie making before.

I don't get why Sansa admitting that she learned a lot from Cersei is used by some, as some sort of proof, of Sansa's inherent evilness that is just waiting to break out.  Perhaps, Sansa asks herself "What Would Cersei Do?" and then does the exact opposite of that.  

I can't see Cersei sitting amongst the common folk, and eating, what could be her very last meal. Yet, that is what Sansa did with Theon. Has Cersei ever cared about protecting the smallfolk? No.  Sansa did when she told Lord Royce to keep the gates open as long as he can because there are still people coming from the countryside. Sansa's tone and snarkiness are Cersei-esque, but her actions don't.

I think Sansa learns from everyone. 

These lessons that you are talking about are ones she's probably learned from Margaery, who is the best example of building love among the commons. Sure, she eventually had a horrible fiery death, but until death Margaery had taken a lot of Cersei's political power mainly by cultivating a relationship with the Kingslanders. 

[screamin]

1 hour ago, Katsullivan said:

(Even said "wins" are unearned. e.g. the "smartest person in Westeros" won't have needed her All-Seeing brother to realise that the man who pimped her out to her rapist is probably manipulating her again to turn against her family. Like to claim that a character that came this close - puts thumb to finger - to killing her own sister and needed a prophetic vision to change her course, is intelligent ... is so ridiculous that it just goes to show how invested fans are in Sansa that they're willing to accept such, frankly, bullshit.)

I keep seeing this kind of misquote. Arya didn't call Sansa "the smartest person in Westeros," she called her "the smartest person I ever met." Arya hasn't met all of Westeros, and many of the people she DID meet are dead now. If one disagrees with Arya's estimate of Sansa's intelligence, it should be an easy matter to point out Arya's wrong by naming a character that Arya's met who is clearly smarter than Sansa.

Yet no one I've seen so far who was deeply annoyed at Arya's praise of Sansa has done that. Instead, they misquote what Arya said to make it seem like the show has raised Sansa up ridiculously beyond her deserts ("They said she's the smartest person in Westeros! The smartest person in the WORLD!") so that they can joyously tumble her off that false pedestal that the show didn't even put her on. Seems to me that if one needs to bring Sansa down so much that one must invent a false quote that boosts her JUST to knock her down, then that might show how invested some fans are in trashing Sansa that they're willing to accept false quotes as true ones (ie, bullshit) just to facilitate the trashing.

Edited April 26, 2019 by screamin

[Katsullivan]

55 minutes ago, screamin said:

Arya didn't call Sansa "the smartest person in Westeros," she called her "the smartest person I ever met." Arya hasn't met all of Westeros, and many of the people she DID meet are dead now.

That's semantics. If anything, the fact that Arya has been to Essos, means that Sansa is the smartest person that Arya has met in 2 continents. Which is patently ridiculous. If being alive is all it takes to be smart, then everybody that is alive in present day in the show is the "smartest person that Arya has ever met". The fact that Sansa just short weeks ago (or whatever it is in showtime) was willing to be manipulated by the man that sold her to be raped and would have murdered her own sister, the same Arya who is now praising her intelligence is patently ridiculous. At the very least, I think a bar for intelligence would be "does not require a seer to tell her when the pimp who's been messing with my life is doing so yet again."

The fact that Littlefinger was even in Winterfell for as long as he did in season 7 when Sansa had, by all rights, the loyalty of the Lords of the Vale since season 5 when she admitted her identity - is just ridiculous. 

For the record: Survival =/= intelligence. Being the object of obsession of men (the Hound, Littlefinger) who've been eager to protect her because of their neuroses, an obsession with her mother, or loyalty to her House, doesn't make her intelligent. About the only person in the show whose loyalty Sansa has cultivated entirely her own merit is Theon ---- in a plot that never existed in the book. 

The show had a great opportunity to show Sansa use her political smarts to win over the Northern Houses when she and Jon were petitioning for help - and they dropped the ball and gave that to Davos, and later had Jon crowned King even though Sansa won the war (with the army that Littlefinger got for her, btw). They could have had Sansa circumvent Littlefinger entirely in season 6/Battle of the bastards and had her get the army straight from the Lords of the Vale. They could have had Sansa be crowned Queen in the North after the battle of the bastards - as was her right by birth and conquest - and instead gave it to Jon after he failed up. They could have even still crowned Jon, but this time given Lyanna's speech to Sansa, and made it out that she was deliberately putting herself "behind" the Crown, learning from her mentors that this way she could have the power without making herself a target. Instead we had .... whatever it was we were supposed to have in season 7 and continuing. 

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how invested some fans are in trashing Sansa 

And of course, the conclusion that because I'm trashing - rightfully - the writing on this show that keeps spitting up nonsensical plots to prop the writers's faves means that I'm trashing Sansa. Which is the problem with stan culture. Sansa stans are so invested in their self-projection into the character "winning" that they'll remain blind and deaf to how nonsensical the writing around her has become, how patently insulting it is for Sansa, that her arc has been reduced to a Rape Backstory, and that her "intelligence" entirely rests on everyone that comes into contact with her becoming an idiot. 

[screamin]

24 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

That's semantics. If anything, the fact that Arya has been to Essos, means that Sansa is the smartest person that Arya has met in 2 continents. Which is patently ridiculous.

Okay, then, as I said earlier, it should be quite easy for you to name one person Arya has met who is clearly smarter than Sansa, thus showing HOW patently ridiculous what she said is. Despite your long post, you managed to avoid doing exactly that.

24 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

The fact that Sansa just short weeks ago (or whatever it is in showtime) was willing to be manipulated by the man that sold her to be raped and would have murdered her own sister, the same Arya who is now praising her intelligence is patently ridiculous. At the very least, I think a bar for intelligence would be "does not require a seer to tell her when the pimp who's been messing with my life is doing so yet again."

We're talking about Arya's point of view, here. The fact is that only ONE of the sisters ended up being totally played by that pimp. She exercised all her learned skills of stealth to sneakily 'find out' what LF was really up to, never suspecting that with all her clever stalking, lockpicking, and document stealing she was doing exactly what LF wanted her to do, down to being the only one to openly threaten the other sister's life with a knife to her face (an action that would probably horrify Jon if he'd seen it). It was the other sister who saw through the manipulation. I'd guess when Arya realized how thoroughly she'd been manipulated by LF and how far he'd got her to go without her ever realizing it, she had a rush of respect for her sister that shaped her current opinion.

24 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

The fact that Littlefinger was even in Winterfell for as long as he did in season 7 when Sansa had, by all rights, the loyalty of the Lords of the Vale since season 5 when she admitted her identity - is just ridiculous. 

I don't understand this. The Lords of the Vale owe no loyalty to Sansa Stark for her own sake. We saw quite clearly that the command of the Vale forces was given to LF by Sweetrobin, and that Royce was threatened with death for objecting. Sweetrobin gave the command to LF to rescue Sansa, but it was entirely up to LF to decide what that meant. If Sansa sent LF away, he could order the Vale forces the North desperately needed to go with him.

Edited April 26, 2019 by screamin

[ursula]

8 minutes ago, screamin said:

The Lords of the Vale owe no loyalty to Sansa Stark for her own sake.

Sansa saved Baelish from execution in season 5, didn't she? By revealing her identity to the Lords of the Vale. His legitimacy as Sweetrobin's gaurdian rested on her testimony as Sansa Stark otherwise the Vale Lords would have, at the very least, give Sweetrobin's charge to someone else, or worse killed Baelish for Lysa's death since unlike the books, there was no Patsy to take the fall in the show.

So I agree with @Katsullivan that the show could have written Sansa as directly petitioning Royce etc for the army and not using, as aptly described, her pimp. 

14 minutes ago, screamin said:

It was the other sister who saw through the manipulation.

Didn't Sansa send Brienne away so she could execute Arya? Wasn't Bran the reason she realized Baelish was manipulating both of them? 

I mean the entire Sansa vs Arya plot of season 7 was nonsensical and I don't think either sister came out looking better so... 🤷 

40 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

And of course, the conclusion that because I'm trashing - rightfully - the writing on this show that keeps spitting up nonsensical plots to prop the writers's faves means that I'm trashing Sansa.

As someone who also gets frustrated with Watsonian analysis (translation: handwave-isms) when the issues are Doylistic, I feel this deeply.

[Katsullivan]

34 minutes ago, screamin said:

Okay, then, as I said earlier, it should be quite easy for you to name one person Arya has met who is clearly smarter than Sansa, thus showing HOW patently ridiculous what she said is. Despite your long post, you managed to avoid doing exactly that.

Gee, I wonder if it has something to do with this:

58 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

her "intelligence" entirely rests on everyone that comes into contact with her becoming an idiot. 

I mean you basically make my own case for me here:

38 minutes ago, screamin said:

The fact is that only ONE of the sisters ended up being totally played by that pimp. She exercised all her learned skills of stealth to sneakily 'find out' what LF was really up to, never suspecting that with all her clever stalking, lockpicking, and document stealing she was doing exactly what LF wanted her to do, down to being the only one to openly threaten the other sister's life with a knife to her face (an action that would probably horrify Jon if he'd seen it).

Yes, Arya was written as an irrational psychopath who was falling for planted letters and paper-thin frame-ups while Sansa was the clever one (who took all season to see through Littlefinger's framing but let's not quibble). It's almost as if you're making my point for me or something. 

19 minutes ago, ursula said:

As someone who also gets frustrated with Watsonian analysis (translation: handwave-isms) when the issues are Doylistic, I feel this deeply.

Thank you so much for this! You pretty much put in two sentences what I spent my, as described, very LONG post, trying to say.

I mean we literally just had this conversation.

Me, complaining about the writing: "it's nonsensical that Arya considers Sansa the smartest person she's ever met, the narrative makes everyone around Sansa an idiot to prop her up. This is bad writing" 

Sansa stan: "But everyone around Sansa is an idiot". 

Me: 🤦‍♀️

[screamin]

33 minutes ago, ursula said:

Sansa saved Baelish from execution in season 5, didn't she? By revealing her identity to the Lords of the Vale. His legitimacy as Sweetrobin's gaurdian rested on her testimony as Sansa Stark otherwise the Vale Lords would have, at the very least, give Sweetrobin's charge to someone else, or worse killed Baelish for Lysa's death since unlike the books, there was no Patsy to take the fall in the show.

I don't see how that makes any difference to my point that SR assigned command of the Vale troops to LF, leaving LF with the power to take them away from the North if he wanted to.

33 minutes ago, ursula said:

Didn't Sansa send Brienne away so she could execute Arya?

Some say that. Some say (full disclosure, myself among them) Sansa sent Brienne away because LF was advising her to use Brienne to intervene with Arya's increasingly scary actions, which would likely end badly for one or both. There is no conclusive on-screen proof either way.

33 minutes ago, ursula said:

Wasn't Bran the reason she realized Baelish was manipulating both of them? 

Sansa realized it when LF overplayed his hand with her, which was the reason she went to Bran for clarification in the first place. Arya of the 'I could cut your face off with this knife' scene never realized on her own that she'd been played at all. Arya can appreciate the difference, though it may not seem great.

Edited April 26, 2019 by screamin

[screamin]

16 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

1 hour ago, screamin said:

Okay, then, as I said earlier, it should be quite easy for you to name one person Arya has met who is clearly smarter than Sansa, thus showing HOW patently ridiculous what she said is. Despite your long post, you managed to avoid doing exactly that.

Gee, I wonder if it has something to do with this:

1 hour ago, Katsullivan said:

her "intelligence" entirely rests on everyone that comes into contact with her becoming an idiot. 

....what...? What's your opinion about the intelligence of the people surrounding Sansa have to do with my question about the intelligence of the people surrounding Arya?

We've followed Arya through seven years and two continents (as you mention).  We've seen the people she met in that time, and I think it's safe to say we've gotten to know all the people SHE got to know well enough to have some opinion about their intelligence.

If you think Arya's wrong about Sansa being the smartest person she met, why can't you name one person we've seen Arya meet and interact with enough to get some idea of their intelligence and say "This person X that she met in season Y is clearly smarter than Sansa, so Arya's full of shit when she says Sansa's the smartest?"

Or are you saying that everyone around Arya ALSO becomes an idiot, and the showrunners did THAT to prop up Sansa too? I don't get it.

[ursula]

(Bran is still literally omniscient, right? I don't know if anyone is taking draws but I'll just throw my own into the "smartest person in Arya's world" lottery.)

27 minutes ago, screamin said:

Some say that. Some say (full disclosure, myself among them) Sansa sent Brienne away because LF was advising her to use Brienne to intervene with Arya's increasingly scary actions, which would likely end badly for one or both. There is no conclusive on-screen proof either way.

So basically the writing around Sansa doesn't make any sense? 😂

And you keep missing the point about Watsonian vs Doylistic. 

Edited April 27, 2019 by ursula

[screamin]

Just now, ursula said:

So basically the writing around Sansa doesn't make any sense?

The writing around that particular scene can be read in two different ways. It isn't the only example on the show, nor does the phenomenon only apply to Sansa.

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And you keep missing the point about Watsonian vs Doylistic. 

Afraid so.  It might be more useful if you explained what you specifically found wrong with the things I said, rather than throwing an uncomplimentary buzzword at it and calling it done.

[ursula]

15 minutes ago, screamin said:

It might be more useful if you explained what you specifically found wrong with the things I said, rather than throwing an uncomplimentary buzzword at it and calling it done.

I already did. 🤷 I mean, I could quote you line by line and explain all the Doylistic issues with the writing, but if you're just going to respond with Watsonian rejoinders... we're literally not having the same conversation.

Also, I just realized that the Doylistic/Watsonian thing is so commonly used in fandom discourse that I just assumed everyone knew what that meant:

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Doylistic considers the work as a created object, and prefers explanations based on the real-world motivations or circumstances of the creators. Watsonian or in-universe commentary restricts itself to making statements that are sensible within the story's reality. 

Watsonian: "Luke Skywalker was attacked by a wampa and there wasn't enough bacta to remove the scars."

Doylistic: "Mark Hamill was in a near-fatal car accident in the middle of shooting Empire Strikes Back."

Edited April 27, 2019 by ursula

[Affogato]

3 hours ago, screamin said:

I keep seeing this kind of misquote. Arya didn't call Sansa "the smartest person in Westeros," she called her "the smartest person I ever met." Arya hasn't met all of Westeros, and many of the people she DID meet are dead now. If one disagrees with Arya's estimate of Sansa's intelligence, it should be an easy matter to point out Arya's wrong by naming a character that Arya's met who is clearly smarter than Sansa.

Yet no one I've seen so far who was deeply annoyed at Arya's praise of Sansa has done that. Instead, they misquote what Arya said to make it seem like the show has raised Sansa up ridiculously beyond her deserts ("They said she's the smartest person in Westeros! The smartest person in the WORLD!") so that they can joyously tumble her off that false pedestal that the show didn't even put her on. Seems to me that if one needs to bring Sansa down so much that one must invent a false quote that boosts her JUST to knock her down, then that might show how invested some fans are in trashing Sansa that they're willing to accept false quotes as true ones (ie, bullshit) just to facilitate the trashing.

If it comes to it I’m impressed with Dany’s development of a clear and consistent political platform and style of leadership while coping with dragons and different cultures. She was as sheltered and more abused than sansa to start. I don’t know that we’ve seen Sansa do anything really complex and new. She is acting rather than reacting now, to her credit, but if she had any real training as a child it would have been in the stewardship of a place like winterfell and the north in general. 

Honestly the stark children show remarkable resilience and fortitude and they seem smart enough, but not necessarily brilliant. 

[Smad]

2 hours ago, ursula said:

So basically the writing around Sansa doesn't make any sense? 😂

And you keep missing the point about Watsonian vs Doylistic.

Of course she doesn't. But that goes for all the characters. Because guess what...it's not about them. The writers have said before this is a plot driven show now. Anyone who expects characters to make any sense from a plot driven show are frankly not living in reality. Watsonian vs Doylist isn't even a discussion because we already have an answer to that via 'plot driven show'.

Tyrion's drinking has clearly caught up with him or his brain fell out of his head right after he killed his father. Jon was never the sharpest tool in the shed but his death has clearly cause brain damage to the point that he's even dumber now. Arya got super ninja, sword and knife throwing skills from stick fighting. Varys lost all his usefulness and complete spy network all over Westeros because of a lack of candy or something. Dany lost the ability to speechify after burning the Tarly guys.

All the characters are trash because non of them make sense. They are what they need to be for the plot. Usually it's done for Cersei to score a win or because St. Tyrion the Smart needs to be praised 10 times an episode, it's a requirement. Or because they couldn't figure out another way to get the AotD into Westeros so the 'heroes' need to be monumentally stupid and cause it themselves. Or they need an OMG moment (like the Vale army during BotB). They even forget their own plots and canon if it suits them. And in the process the characters forget their own history.

[Minneapple]

1 hour ago, Smad said:

Of course she doesn't. But that goes for all the characters. Because guess what...it's not about them. The writers have said before this is a plot driven show now. Anyone who expects characters to make any sense from a plot driven show are frankly not living in reality. Watsonian vs Doylist isn't even a discussion because we already have an answer to that via 'plot driven show'.

Yeppp. This is what happens when your show is driven by plot and not character. You have great visuals and spend millions on CGI, costumes, sets...and then here is your 50-cent script. I mean literally this was Tyrion and Jaime's reunion discussion.

Tyrion: Here we are

Jaime: Yes, here we are

Tyrion: Together again.

I MEAN COME THE FUCK ON HOW MUCH DID YOU GET PAID TO WRITE THAT? I COULD HAVE WRITTEN THAT FOR A FRACTION OF WHATEVER YOU GOT FOR IT.

Ahem. 

[screamin]

On 4/26/2019 at 8:24 PM, ursula said:

I already did. 🤷 I mean, I could quote you line by line and explain all the Doylistic issues with the writing, but if you're just going to respond with Watsonian rejoinders... we're literally not having the same conversation.

Also, I just realized that the Doylistic/Watsonian thing is so commonly used in fandom discourse that I just assumed everyone knew what that meant:

Doylistic considers the work as a created object, and prefers explanations based on the real-world motivations or circumstances of the creators. Watsonian or in-universe commentary restricts itself to making statements that are sensible within the story's reality. 

Ah, thank you for informing me. I really did not know what you meant by those words. I came from a fandom generation where we used the word 'fanwanking' to try to make apparent contradictions within a fandom universe make sense in the terms of that universe. I gather you've decided that's an unequivocally bad thing, given your use of "Watsonian" to equal bad and "Doylistic" to equal good.

So, your "Doylistic" view of the issues in Sansa's writing would be something like, "The showrunners made Arya say Sansa was the smartest person she'd ever met when she's OBVIOUSLY not because they /are writing GRRM's future book interpretation of Sansa without bothering to include GRRM's proofs of her intelligence/think Sophie Turner's hot/whatever ulterior motive I care to attribute to them," yes?

Seems to me that to decide whether Sansa is OBVIOUSLY dumber or not, you kind of HAVE to start with what you call "Watsonian" analysis - IS what Sansa did so dumb strictly in the terms of her universe that it makes no sense for Arya to call her smarter? If you do that, why is it so superior to exclude that part of your thought process from discussion and say anyone who DOES want to discuss it on those terms  is nothing but a dumb 'Watsonian'?

And as Smad says, the show has had contradictions since day one that have only gotten worse as the seasons go on, so it doesn't make a lot of sense to point out Sansa as a special beneficiary of them.

Edited April 28, 2019 by screamin

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, screamin said:

If you do that, why is it so superior to exclude that part of your thought process from discussion and say anyone who DOES want to discuss it on those terms  is nothing but a dumb 'Watsonian'

Not to speak for someone else, but I don't think they're saying the Watsonian view is dumb--often when you have to reach for a Doylist explanation it represents a failure in the storytelling (which the other poster thinks has happened). Nobody wants to a read a story that relies on knowing what was going on personally with the author or behind the scenes.

To give another Watsonian interpretation, not only is Arya speaking from her own emotions in that scene (emotions influenced by recent events), she's also trying to convince Jon to not dismiss Sansa's opinions. Arya's met Tywin, who was very smart (saw through Arya's disguise, but not all the way) and her Faceless mentor certainly came across as smart to me. But I think in this scene Arya's using the term "smart" to refer to more than just cleverness. She's basically saying that if Sansa's got a bad feeling about somebody/someone, Arya would listen to her.

That said, the show is obviously hitting the "Sansa is the smart one and Tyrion's not" pretty hard, which some think (reasonably, imo) is more about setting up Tyrion to do something smart while wanting to underline how Sansa's experiences have changed her and made her a good leader. Sometimes it's just hard to ignore when a show is setting up characters just so they can make that point. It's especially obviously with these two because you've literally got characters walking around announcing that they are smart or not or laying out situations for them to be right or wrong compared to others instead of just having them act out of their own pov and having things work out however they work out and letting the audience decide.

Like it's one thing if a character does something that seems dumb because they think it's the only honorable thing to do or whatever. It's another one you feel like a character does something that's not just dumb but OOC. (Or at least looks like they're doing that.)

[screamin]

40 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

2 hours ago, screamin said:

If you do that, why is it so superior to exclude that part of your thought process from discussion and say anyone who DOES want to discuss it on those terms  is nothing but a dumb 'Watsonian'

Not to speak for someone else, but I don't think they're saying the Watsonian view is dumb--often when you have to reach for a Doylist explanation it represents a failure in the storytelling (which the other poster thinks has happened). Nobody wants to a read a story that relies on knowing what was going on personally with the author or behind the scenes.

Well, looking back at this...

18 hours ago, ursula said:

As someone who also gets frustrated with Watsonian analysis (translation: handwave-isms) when the issues are Doylistic, I feel this deeply.

...it sure SEEMS to me pretty dismissive of 'Watsonian' analysis.

You HAVE to engage in some of what she calls 'Watsonian' analysis to decide if a plot issue makes sense in terms of its world before deciding NO in-world explanation is adequate, and we must resort to some Doylist explanation, like, say, the scriptwriters were going through a divorce when they wrote that. To use Watsonian analysis yourself to decide the solution IS absolutely Doylian, but then brush off anyone else's Watsonian analysis as mere 'handwaving' that you scorn to engage in yourself seems a bit unfair to me.

[screamin]

On 4/26/2019 at 8:55 PM, Affogato said:

If it comes to it I’m impressed with Dany’s development of a clear and consistent political platform and style of leadership while coping with dragons and different cultures. She was as sheltered and more abused than sansa to start. I don’t know that we’ve seen Sansa do anything really complex and new. She is acting rather than reacting now, to her credit, but if she had any real training as a child it would have been in the stewardship of a place like winterfell and the north in general. 

Honestly the stark children show remarkable resilience and fortitude and they seem smart enough, but not necessarily brilliant. 

I agree that Dany is a good candidate for displacing Sansa as The Smartest Person I've Ever Met. But Arya hasn't actually met her yet. It would require Arya to actually speak to her and see her in action for her to decide for herself how much of her current success is due to intelligence and how much to other factors like seduction, luck, and prophetic Targaryen destiny weighing in her favor. Judging purely by reputation can't distinguish that.

Myself, I agree with someone else who says Davos is the smartest. But AFAICT Arya hasn't even MET him onscreen, much less seen him at his best, in action, the way we have, so it's plausible Arya wouldn't know enough about him to put him in the running.

[Affogato]

8 hours ago, screamin said:

I agree that Dany is a good candidate for displacing Sansa as The Smartest Person I've Ever Met. But Arya hasn't actually met her yet. It would require Arya to actually speak to her and see her in action for her to decide for herself how much of her current success is due to intelligence and how much to other factors like seduction, luck, and prophetic Targaryen destiny weighing in her favor. Judging purely by reputation can't distinguish that.

Myself, I agree with someone else who says Davos is the smartest. But AFAICT Arya hasn't even MET him onscreen, much less seen him at his best, in action, the way we have, so it's plausible Arya wouldn't know enough about him to put him in the running.

Honestly Varys may actually be the smartest. Davos probably wins the sanity sweepstakes, though. 

[Advance35]

That was an incredible episode.  I honestly didn't think Sansa was going to live through it.  When she first walked down the stairs, I kept waiting for something to jump up and grab her.

Her moments with Tyrion were something else.  She appreciated his kindness in Kings Landing but I always felt him being a Lannister was a line of demarcation for her.   Now, apparently, his loyalty to Dany is as well.  Not surprising and even, understandable from Sansa's point of view.  This girl was forged in Kings Landing, anything that re-directs power from House Stark or herself is going to be an adversary in her eyes.

I was stunned when we were given the impression that Tyrion and Sansa's marriage was something HE thought could work and even seemed to want.   Sansa shut him down because of political ramifications but Tyrion would have been on board.

When the dead started to rise in the crypts I lost it.   I thought Sansa was finished.   Then when we saw those people being ripped apart and the camera showed Tyrion and Sansa behind the crypt.  And they just LOOKED at each other.  And Tyrion took her hand and kissed it.  The whole thing came off as very romantic to me.

We could also tell he was pulling Sansa behind him when he went over to Varys and the others.

I'm worried and happy about the rest.  Sansa has come so far and I feel like she has a real shot at living through everything.

I'm interested in seeing if this battle changes her in any way.  Will she thaw to Dany and Tyrion.  I know I'm petty, but I kind of hope not.  But then there are times I feel like I wouldn't mind.  

Ugh, so many feelings.

[dirtypop90]

She looked sad in the preview shot watching Jon ride off with Dany. I’m not sure she’ll ever warm to her.

[ShellsandCheese]

Sansa was such a huge disappoint in episode three. I was hoping she’d step up and show some leadership skills while down in the crypts with “her people” but nope. She just sat there looking pretty and annoyed for most of her time down there and then didn’t even try to help when the dead rose. Ugh. 

[ursula]

1 hour ago, ShellsandCheese said:

Sansa was such a huge disappoint in episode three. I was hoping she’d step up and show some leadership skills while down in the crypts with “her people” but nope.

This was her moment to shine, to do what Cersei failed to do during the Blackwater invasion - be strong and graceful, but instead she was mean-spirited, bitching about the people who were currently dying to keep her alive. 

Cersei was supposed to be Sansa's mentor in the sense that she showed Sansa how not to be a female ruler. But apparently the writers somehow concluded that she's Sansa's literal mentor in that she has become Cersei.

At the moment, I'm currently confused. I thought Sansa's arc these past episodes was a means to discredit Dany but it looks like she was basically being built up to do the opposite and prop up Dany. The writers are not known for their subtlety. Missandei's snark wasn't incidental.

Which is my roundabout way of saying that as usual, the writers for this show are misogynistic and just generally wack

Edited April 29, 2019 by ursula
Not known, I mean.

[dirtypop90]

I didn’t see Sansa be bitchy or mean spirited. She only stated that she and Tyrion wouldn’t work out because of what would be his divided loyalties, between Dany and Sansa. Sansa once Northern independence. Dany wants to rule over everyone.  Is that not the truth? Who was she being mean/bitchy to? 

[merrick715]

1 hour ago, Advance35 said:

When the dead started to rise in the crypts I lost it.   I thought Sansa was finished.   Then when we saw those people being ripped apart and the camera showed Tyrion and Sansa behind the crypt.  And they just LOOKED at each other.  And Tyrion took her hand and kissed it.  The whole thing came off as very romantic to me.

What is going on with Sansa and men whose first name begins with T? 😉 Last week we were blessed with Sansa and Theon, and this week we get Sansa and Tyrion. I know people rag on Sophie's acting, and while I think it can be uneven, she was great this episode. Besides her and Tyrion's silent conversation behind a  sarcophagus, I loved her face after Missandei dropped her" you'd be dead without the Dragon Queen." Sansa was like" good point, but I still don't like her. 

[ursula]

9 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

I didn’t see Sansa be bitchy or mean spirited. She only stated that she and Tyrion wouldn’t work out because of what would be his divided loyalties, between Dany and Sansa. Sansa once Northern independence. Dany wants to rule over everyone.  Is that not the truth? Who was she being mean/bitchy to? 

Well at that point in time, Dany was out in the field of Battle, risking her life and losing her entire army and close friends defending the North while Sansa was in the crypts doing absolutely nothing - and to be clear I'm specifically referring to the role she should have been playing as a leader to everyone in the crypts not necessarily swinging a sword. She sounded, frankly speaking, like an entitled brat and Missandei's call out was well past overdue and startling to me. I'm genuinely shocked that Missandei didn't die after that.

[dirtypop90]

Just now, ursula said:

Well at that point in time, Dany was out in the field of Battle, risking her life and losing her entire army and close friends defending the North while Sansa was in the crypts doing absolutely nothing - and to be clear I'm specifically referring to the role she should have been playing as a leader to everyone in the crypts not necessarily swinging a sword. She sounded, frankly speaking, like an entitled brat and Missandei's call out was well past overdue and startling to me. I'm genuinely shocked that Missandei didn't die after that.

You said she was being mean spirited and bitchy. That’s what I was responding to, because I didn’t see it.

As far as her feelings about Dany, Dany is a military ally. She doesn’t have to like a military ally.

Besides, Sansa doesn’t like anyone because of all she’s been through, except people who have saved her like Brienne and Theon. She’s not even particularly warm with Arya. Life has made her this way. And I missed where she stated she was entitled to anything. She just doesn’t want to be ruled by Dany or any other foreign ruler. She might not have a choice in the matter, but doesn’t mean she has to like it.

[ursula]

15 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

You said she was being mean spirited and bitchy. That’s what I was responding to, because I didn’t see it.

As far as her feelings about Dany, Dany is a military ally. She doesn’t have to like a military ally.

Besides, Sansa doesn’t like anyone because of all she’s been through, except people who have saved her like Brienne and Theon. She’s not even particularly warm with Arya. Life has made her this way. And I missed where she stated she was entitled to anything. She just doesn’t want to be ruled by Dany or any other foreign ruler. She might not have a choice in the matter, but doesn’t mean she has to like it.

Y'all going to hate me for my Doyle vs Watson hot takes but... that's how I roll.

The scene between Tyrion and Sansa was unnecessary. Their marriage didn't work out because she was coerced into it, his family tried to wipe out her own (and he played a role in this), and she's been scarred from her second marriage. Those were all more pertinent reasons that could have brought up before "you work for that Targaryen bitch" even came up.

Or they could have skipped that whole conversation completely and just shown Sansa Lady Winterfelling the civilians - soothing crying children and women, leading prayers, keeping spirits up... 

Instead they had Sansa throw in one last snark at Dany ... at the same time Dany's heroing it up over field. They make a point of giving Sansa a weapon, then show her hiding behind the crypt while her precious Northern people are being slaughtered around her... Apparently Northern Independence trumps Northern Lives.

And in case we all missed the point, they had mild mannered Missandei deliver a the kind of cutting, "butter won't melt in my mouth" verbal smack down that Sansa used to be good at but hasn't been able to deliver since D & D hijacked her story.

Tl Dr... You can come up with a myriad reasons for why characters in a scene acted in a certain way... but what really matters is why writers included the scene in the first place. 

Edited April 29, 2019 by ursula

[anamika]

18 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

Besides, Sansa doesn’t like anyone because of all she’s been through, except people who have saved her like Brienne and Theon. 

That's the point. All those hundreds of Dothraki charging the dead and the Unsullied bravely making their stand - ALL of that was to defend Winterfell - Sansa's home and Sansa. Dany and her men were out there saving Sansa and her people. But instead of recognizing this, she is whinging about the 'Dragon Queen' once again - while Dany's soldiers were literally dying outside.

I am glad Missandei finally put an end to that - because her boyfriend could be dying out there for the ungrateful North, while Sansa was whinging in the crypts. I think Missandei was already pissed off at the racism and now she is shut in with Sansa and was like, hell no. I am not listening to this.

I don't know. Maybe Sansa could for once acknowledge the sacrifice Dany and her army is making? Just once? That Dany is not bad and that maybe the north owes Dany something for her help?

Edited April 29, 2019 by anamika

[dirtypop90]

I’m sure they included to show Sansa still has no warm feelings about Dany and to possibly hint at a Tyrion/Dany split. I was only saying I could careless if Sansa likes Dany, don’t feel she has to like her, and believe it would be out of character if she did like her.  

[Chaser]

I don’t think that crypt scene was cut well enough to tell anything. Were they going to kill themselves? Were they going to run? Were they going to fight? They run to the enclave with the others, were they going to try and get them out? Or were they just on the way?

I will say its very telling that no one has a problem with Tyrion hiding with his blade and wine after all that talk about fighting with the others but have a huge problem with Sansa (who has never fought before) doing the same. 

[dirtypop90]

4 minutes ago, anamika said:

That's the point. All those hundreds of Dothraki charging the dead and the Unsullied bravely making their stand - ALL of that was to defend Winterfell - Sansa's home and Sansa. Dany and her men were out there saving Sansa and her people. But instead of recognizing this, she is whinging about the 'Dragon Queen' once again - while Dany's soldiers were literally dying outside.

I am glad Missandei finally put an end to that - because her boyfriend could be dying out there for the ungrateful North, while Sansa was whinging in the crypts. I think Missandei was already pissed off at the racism and now she is shut in with Sansa and was like, hell no. I am not listening to this.

I don't know. Maybe Sansa could for once acknowledge the sacrifice Dany and her army is making? Just once ? And that maybe the north owes Dany something for her help?

They weren’t there for Sansa. They would’ve been there even if Sansa wasn’t at Winterfell. The Dragon queen told her she was only there for Jon. Theon and Brienne were specifically there for Sansa. The Dothraki, unsullied, and Dan could give a flying fudge about Sansa.

Who knows..maybe Sansa would rather be dead than under a foreign leader who burns her adversaries. Don’t know. Because she had no choice.

3 minutes ago, Chaser said:

I don’t think that crypt scene was cut well enough to tell anything. Were they going to kill themselves? Were they going to run? Were they going to fight? They run to the enclave with the others, were they going to try and get them out? Or were they just on the way?

I will say its very telling that no one has a problem with Tyrion hiding with his blade and wine after all that talk about fighting with the others but have a huge problem with Sansa (who has never fought before) doing the same. 

People just have a huge problem with Sansa. She couldn’t do anything except kiss Jon’s feet and braid Dany’s hair that they wouldn’t have a problem with. Hell even if she braided Dany’s hair, there would probably be complaints that she wasn’t braiding it right.

Edited April 29, 2019 by dirtypop90

[ursula]

Just now, Chaser said:

I will say its very telling that no one has a problem with Tyrion hiding with his blade and wine after all that talk about fighting with the others but have a huge problem with Sansa (who has never fought before) doing the same. 

Because Tyrion isn't the Lord of Winterfell, failing to do his job in the crypt while complaining about the people upstairs who are essentially keeping him alive.

[ursula]

2 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

They weren’t there for Sansa. They would’ve been there even if Sansa wasn’t at Winterfell. The Dragon queen told her she was only there for Jon.

A blatant retcon from season 7 when the show explicitly had Dany choose to fight the war because she was horrified at what she saw North of the Wall. 

Just like the show had retconned that Jon bent the knee after she chose to fight for the war and not as condition of it.

Which goes back to my Doyle vs Watson issue and why it's pointless to analyze the characters for consistency because there isn't any. What is always more significant is why the writers choose to write what they write.

[dirtypop90]

I don’t even know if Sansa has a position anymore after Jon bent the knee.  Dany runs Winterfell.

Edited April 29, 2019 by dirtypop90

[merrick715]

4 minutes ago, ursula said:

And in case we all missed the point, they had mild mannered Missandei deliver a the kind of cutting, "butter won't melt in my mouth" verbal smack down that Sansa used to be good at but hasn't been able to deliver since D & D hijacked her story.

I loved Missandei finally getting to show some teeth and Sansa's reaction to Missandei's rebuke was amusing.

12 minutes ago, ursula said:

They make a point of giving her a weapon, then show her hiding behind the crypt while her precious Northern people are being slaughtered around her... 

Sansa's weapon was basically the Westerosi version of a shank, and the only reason she had it was because Arya gave it to her. It would have been more helpful if someone, like Sansa, would have thought to bring a few swords or spears down with them in the crypt. Those would have provided a bit of distance between, you and the undead zombie trying to kill you, that a knife doesn't.

43 minutes ago, anamika said:

That's the point. All those hundreds of Dothraki charging the dead and the Unsullied bravely making their stand - ALL of that was to defend Winterfell - Sansa's home and Sansa. Dany and her men were out there saving Sansa and her people.

Yes, Dany and her people are out there dying right alongside half the North, but she didn't do that for completely altruistic reasons. If Dany wants to rule the seven kingdoms, she going to need subjects that are alive, and not undead zombies. It isn't like the Night King was going to just stop and chill when he reaches the border between the North and the Riverlands. 

[ursula]

5 minutes ago, merrick715 said:

Yes, Dany and her people are out there dying right alongside half the North, but she didn't do that for completely altruistic reasons. 

She did because she agreed to fight for the North before Jon bent the knee. 

5 minutes ago, merrick715 said:

Sansa's weapon was basically the Westerosi version of a shank, and the only reason she had it was because Arya gave it to her.

Fair enough but it wasn't a good look. Especially after she declared she won't abandon her people. Especially after she snarked at Dany. Especially after she did nothing to comfort or inspire the people. 

Edited April 29, 2019 by ursula

[derriere]

Well, I hope the resolution to the books is better. How did almost everyone survive that?!

Edited April 29, 2019 by derriere

[ShellsandCheese]

I posted this in one of the episode threads. It occurred to me that if D&D really wanted to set Sansa up as some great strategic thinker, planner, and leader they still could have done so down in the crypts but chose not to. 

For example, instead of making snide comments about The Dragon Queen she could have been engaging Tyrion, Varys, and or Messandei in conversation to learn more about Dany. She should have been trying to tactically and tactfully pump them for information in order to find common ground or leverage that could have been used as a bargaining chip to discuss Northern Independence or better yet a strategic ally ship or partnership similar to what Dorne had under Targaryen rule. But she didn’t - and I can’t help thinking that it was intentional for some reason.   

[merrick715]

39 minutes ago, ursula said:

Fair enough but it wasn't a good look. Especially after she declared she won't abandon her people. Especially after she snarked at Dany. Especially after she did nothing to comfort or inspire the people. 

Hey, that's not fair. Sansa didn't abandon her people. She was still in the crypts, about to be slaughtered alongside everyone else.  😉 I agree that she wasn't out there acting as she did during Blackwater. Then again, she and everyone in the crypts know they will be dead if the Night King wins the battle raging on top of them. What kind of comfort can you offer up, if the enemy isn't human?

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, merrick715 said:

 

Edited April 29, 2019 by merrick715

[ursula]

5 minutes ago, merrick715 said:

What kind of comfort can you offer up,

Whoever survives can look forward to bigger food rations... 😉

Edited April 29, 2019 by ursula

[anamika]

50 minutes ago, merrick715 said:

If Dany wants to rule the seven kingdoms, she going to need subjects that are alive, and not undead zombies.

Yes, and Dany is out there doing everything to make sure her subjects survive. On the other hand Sansa expects Dany to use all her resources, her armies, her dragons, help them, then GTFO. She does not want the North to be Dany's subjects. She wants Dany to be Mother Theresa, help them all out, then go defeat Cersei - again for free - and then shut up and go away. Again, how is that fair?

Look at Cersei - she calls herself queen of the 7K and is sitting pretty with a large army. Dany has suffered huge losses defending the North. And you think Sansa is right in that the North owes Dany nothing?

[merrick715]

 

 

 

1 minute ago, anamika said:

Look at Cersei - she calls herself queen of the 7K and is sitting pretty with a large army. Dany has suffered huge losses defending the North. And you think Sansa is right in that the North owes Dany nothing?

I'm not saying Dany didn't help the North. She absolutely did and suffered huge losses in doing so. All I'm saying is that she had multiple motivations in doing so, and those don't make Dany a tyrant or villain.  Sansa asked Dany what happens after "we" defeat Cersei, so I'm guessing she's reluctantly on board with Jon's promise to help Dany defeat Cersei. I think in Sansa's perfect world, the North helps Dany win the Iron Throne, and in turn, Dany allows the North to be independent. 

[Oscirus]

5 hours ago, Advance35 said:

I was stunned when we were given the impression that Tyrion and Sansa's marriage was something HE thought could work and even seemed to want.   Sansa shut him down because of political ramifications but Tyrion would have been on board.

I don't think she was actually against it. Hell, she even smiled at first before catching herself. Was interesting to see she can talk him down from self pity in a way that nobody else can.

I didn't exactly hate her role in the crypts its not much she could do there, much different than Blackwater

[Advance35]

Quote

I will say its very telling that no one has a problem with Tyrion hiding with his blade and wine after all that talk about fighting with the others but have a huge problem with Sansa (who has never fought before) doing the same. 

I agree, I don't think there was anything she could do.  That dagger was for HER last line of defense, meaning when one of the undead got their hands on her.  And I agree, she was down there with other people that probably COULD do more.

The name of Sansa's game is survival.  Her ability and willingness to keep her head down is why she is still alive and others who may be lauded for their actions, are long since dead.

I didn't have a problem with Sansa's remark about Dany (It really wasn't that bitchy all things considering, is she not the "Dragon Queen."  Cersei and The AOD aside, Dany is the spoiler to everything Sansa wants.  In Kings Landing, even if you have to put grudges aside for a moment, the grudges are still there and you go back to hating your adversary immediately after the threat.

If the North isn't independent, then it and Sansa are answerable to Dany and whomever comes after her, henceforth and forever more.

Quote

What is going on with Sansa and men whose first name begins with T? 😉Last week we were blessed with Sansa and Theon, and this week we get Sansa and Tyrion. I know people rag on Sophie's acting, and while I think it can be uneven, she was great this episode.

The hand kiss is what sent me over the moon.  It just felt epic.   And I do think the Sansa character is a chemistry magnet.  ST does well in that regard.

[Eyes High]

9 hours ago, Advance35 said:

When the dead started to rise in the crypts I lost it.   I thought Sansa was finished.   Then when we saw those people being ripped apart and the camera showed Tyrion and Sansa behind the crypt.  And they just LOOKED at each other.  And Tyrion took her hand and kissed it.  The whole thing came off as very romantic to me.

It was extremely romantic. Someone on Twitter said that there have been a gazillion sex scenes on the show but Tyrion kissing Sansa's hand is the most intimate shit that the show has ever done, and that is 100% correct. That long look at each other where they were speaking without words. No more icy politeness from Sansa, no more ironic detachment from Tyrion. They were finally being real with each other. And Tyrion took his dagger out without looking away from Sansa.

That was great wordless acting by Sophie Turner. There was sadness, terror, desperation, courage, even a bit of gallows humour, and she nailed all of it. Really spectacular.

I don't know about Sansa (she kind of looked like she was expecting Tyrion to kiss her), but Tyrion's obviously in love with her. He made a beeline for her at Winterfell in 8x01 and made an ambiguous comment about how whoremongering is no longer an option for him in 8x02. 

4 hours ago, Oscirus said:

I don't think she was actually against it. Hell, she even smiled at first before catching herself. Was interesting to see she can talk him down from self pity in a way that nobody else can.

I think it's very interesting that Sansa mentioned Tyrion's allegiance to Dany as the problem and not her previous dealbreakers (that he's a Lannister and a dwarf). She had no reason to spare his feelings at that point (as she said, the most heroic thing would be to look the truth in the face), so I guess she doesn't care about those things anymore.

2 hours ago, Advance35 said:

The hand kiss is what sent me over the moon.  It just felt epic. 

It was epic.

Edited April 29, 2019 by Eyes High

[merrick715]

1 hour ago, Advance35 said:

The hand kiss is what sent me over the moon.  It just felt epic.   And I do think the Sansa character is a chemistry magnet.  ST does well in that regard.

Not only was the hand kiss epic, but we also got Tyrion and Sansa silently agreeing to pull a Thelma and Louise. It reminds me of another favorite scene between them during the Purple Wedding. 

[Advance35]

Quote

I don't know about Sansa (she kind of looked like she was expecting Tyrion to kiss her), but Tyrion's obviously in love with her. He made a beeline for her at Winterfell in 8x01 and made an ambiguous comment about how whoremongering is no longer an option for him in 8x02. 

Though for me, this whole thing throws a lot of the leaks into question.  I can't see Tyrions rumored storyline playing out with the Sansa nuance mixed in.  I found the Tyrion/Sansa dynamic deliberately illustrated this episode.  I'd imagine fear of pending death heightens things but, Wow. 

Just the whole scene.  They wound up sequestered away together, underground, while the world is dying and falling around them.  The imagery and then the hand kiss. When I acknowledge chemistry, it doesn't mean I ship a couple but after those scenes, if I shipped a couple in GoT, it would probably be those two.  PD's face is so expressive.

Quote

I think it's very interesting that Sansa mentioned Tyrion's allegiance to Dany as the problem and not her previous dealbreakers (that he's a Lannister and a dwarf). She had no reason to spare his feelings at that point (as she said, the most heroic thing would be to look the truth in the face), so I guess she doesn't care about those things anymore.

I'll be interested in seeing how the show proceeds with this.  It's Dany's power Sansa resents, not Dany herself and I think there is a difference.  I don't think she feels safe with anyone holding power over her (I think she was a little less resentful with Jon because they are family but I thought some chafing was still there).  

How does something like this get resolved.  I understand why Sansa feels the way she does, (though not a fan) I can understand why Dany feels like she's earned (whether I agree is a whole other thing) the loyalty of the North.  I guess these moments and circumstances of human drama are what they will try to resolve in the last couple of episodes.

[Hana Chan]

I hereby nominate Sansa for this week's "Useful as Tits on a Bull Award". I wasn't expecting her to fight or be up on the battlements when the AOTD came ripping through and the place for her was down in the crypts to help the other non-combatants. Nevermind the face that Jon had specifically ordered that every able-bodied person in Winterfell start weapons training before he left for Dragonstone because apparently that order didn't apply to Ms. Lady of Winterfell. Telling Arya that she had no idea how to use a dagger just had me rolling my eyes because... figures.

But while she was down in the crypts, she couldn't do the one thing that I would expect her to do. Be the Lady of Winterfell. You've got a bunch of terrified children, women and smallfolk down there who are listening to the sounds of the battle going on above and are probably shitting their pants. Reassuring them that everything would be all right (even if she's got no confidence that anyone was going to survive) was what she should have been doing. Not sitting with Tryion chatting about their marriage and making snide comments about Dany. And then hiding when the Stark dead came bursting out of the tombs instead of trying to get people to safety. She had one job down there, to take care of the people hidden away and she did bupkis. Warrior Queen my ass...