Sansa Stark: A Direwolf In Sheep's Clothing?

[TobinAlbers]

A breakdown/interpretation of how all the Starks are represented in Sansa’s coronation dress.

Totally TeamSansa from even the book days.  Not that I’d ever want to undercut her arc from selfish teen to sacrificing Queen, but thinking over the show, it’d have been interesting for Rickon to have survived if only for him to have been the child Sansa could raise as her own and fight for and be very protective of in regards to Winterfell and making sure the Stark line continued. 

I get Jon being salty at Sansa for her betrayal but he did hug her tight as they said their goodbyes so he may not forgive her but he does still care for her. I know Arya/Jon are the bro/sis pairing that gets everyone else weepy but for me it’s Jon/Sansa. When she rolled up into the Wall and saw Jon and he saw her and they just hugged each other so stunned and relieved, THAT is what got me. Both had come so far and been through so much that to finally see a pair of Stark siblings reunite really affected me. They bumped heads from then and continued to have their differences, but they also accepted each other on a new level as family.

Edited May 22, 2019 by TobinAlbers

[Indi]

5 hours ago, Smad said:

I think Sansa has a little time before she has to think about heirs. She needs to take care of far more important things right now. With Brienne gone she needs a Queensguard. She needs a council. The North needs rebuilding after years of wars. But eventually she has to unless she adopts the same new rule as the 6 Kingdoms where the new ruler is voted for. In which case there is no hurry where heirs are concerned.

This. How old is Sansa now? 21 or 22? I say, let her live a little (and by that I mean work hard on her country and take care of her people). Also, finding the right partner takes time, so I expect her to take a few years, before she takes that step.

50 minutes ago, TobinAlbers said:

A breakdown/interpretation of how all the Starks are represented in Sansa’s coronation dress.

Totally TeamSansa from even the book days.  Not that I’d ever want to undercut her arc from selfish teen to sacrificing Queen, but thinking over the show, it’d have been interesting for Rickon to have survived if only for him to have been the child Sansa could raise as her own and fight for and be very protective of in regards to Winterfell and making sure the Stark line continued. 

I get Jon being salty at Sansa for her betrayal but he did hug her tight as they said their goodbyes so he may not forgive her but he does still care for her. I know Arya/Jon are the bro/sis pairing that gets everyone else weepy but for me it’s Jon/Sansa. When she rolled up into the Wall and saw Jon and he saw her and they just hugged each other so stunned and relieved, THAT is what got me. Both had come so far and been through so much that to finally see a pair of Stark siblings reunite really affected me. They bumped heads from then and continued to have their differences, but they also accepted each other on a new level as family.

Thanks for the link! That was a really gorgeous dress.

Sansa and Rickon, now that's an idea! I'm trying to imagine Sansa struggling to tame that unruly child. 

[GraceK]

So. I am not a Sansa fan. But honestly? I think it’s bullshit that Sansa freaking STARK is sitting there in the dragonpit and Tyrion freakin nominates BRAN?????  Yeah I get that her destiny is to be queen of the north. But at least nominate the fucking badass woman who is capable and is deserving of being a queen and have her TURN IT DOWN for the North, then to completely overlook her for her brother, AGAIN. 🤦🏻‍♀️ I just can’t. Seriously. Fuck you d and d. And not even have Yara ask for independence either , when they have always been about it? Or DORNE????? Are you kidding?? Only the north gets it???

Edited May 22, 2019 by GraceK

[HLucrezia]

On 5/20/2019 at 8:37 AM, Eyes High said:

Michele Clapton has said a few times that Sansa's tight dresses, belts and corsets are intended to be a visual shorthand indicating that she never intends anyone to touch her again, and her coronation dress is tight with a corset. So I guess being extremely single for the rest of her life is Sansa's endgame, and she'll cross the succession bridge when she comes to it.

I thought the same when I first saw the episode, but the more I think about it, the more I think the corset is actually a signal that she will eventually marry and/or have children. It's the softest look we've seen her in ages, and the corset seems far more delicate and open than her more other choices. YMMV, but I took the fact that Sansa's corset had so many openings to be a sign that Sansa herself was just beginning to open up. 

[Smad]

6 hours ago, Indi said:

This. How old is Sansa now? 21 or 22? I say, let her live a little (and by that I mean work hard on her country and take care of her people).

Not even. Sansa is barely 18 as far as I'm concerned. I know 1 Season is supposed to be a year but that's bs. Look at Little Sam. That baby didn't grow much in like 3 Seasons and still looked maybe 5 at most in S8.

6 hours ago, GraceK said:

But at least nominate the fucking badass woman who is capable and is deserving of being a queen and have her TURN IT DOWN for the North, then to completely overlook her for her brother, AGAIN. 🤦🏻‍♀️ I just can’t. Seriously. Fuck you d and d.

It's nice that some things never change and the patriarchy is one of those things. Women were never really on top in this show despite so many complaining in the last few Seasons that D&D were caving to the 'feminists'. Dany needed to be reigned in by men constantly and the latter half of S8 is 'see what happens when Dany stops listening to men'. Missandei was literally fridged. Sansa was always punished for being feminine. Notice how the patriarchy doesn't exist for some women though, namely Arya (the manly girl), Margery (the sexual manipulator) and Olenna (the sassy one) and even Cersei once she gets the crown (though plenty patriarchy for her before then). Sansa is the only prominent female on the show who was hit with the patriarchy but more like patriarchy on overdrive. Arya and Brienne, the masculine coded women, get to have consensual sex for their first time. Sansa is the only women in S8 to never have consensual sex. Brienne gets used and then tossed aside by Jamie but she still has to write only nice things about the guy. But at least they gave her command of the Kingsguard and a seat in the council. I'm sure D&D would have loved to not have her there, after all it's pretty much an all male council. Sansa not even being mentioned as an option for Queen, just like in S6, didn't surprise me at all. Just like Yara gets to be leader of the Iron Islands but not Queen and she can't even voice her discontent because everyone at the pit meeting is just window dressing for St. Tyrion and Stoned Eyed Raven.

Edited May 22, 2019 by Smad

[Eyes High]

5 hours ago, HLucrezia said:

I thought the same when I first saw the episode, but the more I think about it, the more I think the corset is actually a signal that she will eventually marry and/or have children. It's the softest look we've seen her in ages, and the corset seems far more delicate and open than her more other choices. YMMV, but I took the fact that Sansa's corset had so many openings to be a sign that Sansa herself was just beginning to open up. 

It looked like an actual cage to me, but mileage varies. Michele Clapton will probably do an interview at some point about that dress and we'll see what she was going for.

48 minutes ago, Smad said:

Arya and Brienne, the masculine coded women, get to have consensual sex for their first time. Sansa is the only women in S8 to never have consensual sex.

Does Sansa even have any interest in sex anymore? It sure seems like Ramsay was the end of that, and the costuming with the belts and corsets and such reflects that as well.

Even assuming Sansa is still interested in sex, Sansa didn't have any preexisting romantic relationship heading into S8 and she had a lot of trauma around sex before S8 (unlike Arya and Brienne, "masculine coded" or not). It would be unrealistic to expect her to go from having no relationship to forming a romantic relationship with someone and having sex with that person within six episodes. 

All romantic relationships other than Sam/Gilly fared extremely poorly in S8, so in all fairness Sansa isn't really missing out. She seems to have gotten closure with the various men in her life, one way or another. And really, if the choices are no sex or loveless, terrible sex as Arya had, maybe no sex isn't such a bad thing.

Edited May 22, 2019 by Eyes High

[Advance35]

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I thought the same when I first saw the episode, but the more I think about it, the more I think the corset is actually a signal that she will eventually marry and/or have children. It's the softest look we've seen her in ages, and the corset seems far more delicate and open than her more other choices. YMMV, but I took the fact that Sansa's corset had so many openings to be a sign that Sansa herself was just beginning to open up. 

I think that's what it was, for me.  Something about Sansa seemed lighter and more at ease.  The corset did seem more delicate and "soft."   I definitely don't think she'll be going to any mixers but I thought she definitely seemed more open.  Maybe because for the moment, she isn't surrounded by conflict, turmoil and those she perceives as enemies.

I guess it's good they left some room for fan interpretation.  I like to think something wonderful will happen for Sansa some day.  In terms of romance, that is.

In terms of heirs, that's business, so I think that's a definite.

[Smad]

52 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

I think that's what it was, for me.  Something about Sansa seemed lighter and more at ease.  The corset did seem more delicate and "soft."   I definitely don't think she'll be going to any mixers but I thought she definitely seemed more open.

Baby steps IMO. First of all, NO BLACK. She has been wearing mostly black since the end of S4, with few exceptions (like the virgin white during Ramsey brutalizing her, dark blue dress in S6). Also her choker necklace was gone which was supposed to symbolize more than anything how closed off she was.

[merrick715]

47 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

I think that's what it was, for me.  Something about Sansa seemed lighter and more at ease.  The corset did seem more delicate and "soft."

 I think it's significant that she's not wearing that necklace when she was crowned Queen. She's been wearing that necklace for two seasons. The lack of a necklace makes me think she feels safe in her new position and that sense of safety allows her to think about a husband and children. 

[Indi]

1 hour ago, Smad said:

Not even. Sansa is barely 18 as far as I'm concerned. I know 1 Season is supposed to be a year but that's bs. Look at Little Sam. That baby didn't grow much in like 3 Seasons and still looked maybe 5 at most in S8.

It's nice that some things never change and the patriarchy is one of those things. Women were never really on top in this show despite so many complaining in the last few Seasons that D&D were caving to the 'feminists'. Dany needed to be reigned in by men constantly and the latter half of S8 is 'see what happens when Dany stops listening to men'. Missandei was literally fridged. Sansa was always punished for being feminine. Notice how the patriarchy doesn't exist for some women though, namely Arya (the manly girl), Margery (the sexual manipulator) and Olenna (the sassy one) and even Cersei once she gets the crown (though plenty patriarchy for her before then). Sansa is the only prominent female on the show who was hit with the patriarchy but more like patriarchy on overdrive. Arya and Brienne, the masculine coded women, get to have consensual sex for their first time. Sansa is the only women in S8 to never have consensual sex. Brienne gets used and then tossed aside by Jamie but she still has to write only nice things about the guy. But at least they gave her command of the Kingsguard and a seat in the council. I'm sure D&D would have loved to not have her there, after all it's pretty much an all male council. Sansa not even being mentioned as an option for Queen, just like in S6, didn't surprise me at all. Just like Yara gets to be leader of the Iron Islands but not Queen and she can't even voice her discontent because everyone at the pit meeting is just window dressing for St. Tyrion and Stoned Eyed Raven.

When it comes to feminism, I'm too old to trust any show, that doesn't have a sizable number of women producing and writing it. In this case, let's say GOT has never been promising. D&D have never been the best examples of feminist writing (or good writing for that matter).

In Sansa's case, I have to go with the idea that 1) Tyrion knew Sansa would reject the crown or 2) Sansa would have spoken up, like her uncle did, if she wanted the crown. But yeah, that's me bending over backwards to explain away, why Tyrion didn't even look at her with a questioning eyebrow.  

In Dany's case, I'm not so sure, the punishment came from not listening to men, since they had been giving her terrible advice for a while and she lost a dragon for it. My biggest problem with her story has been her love story with Wet Blanket Jon and how they framed her "going mad", after he rejected her, before the massacre in KL. As if sexing her up would have prevented it all. It was repugnant.

Brienne and Arya having their consensual sex was fan service at its worst. More so in the case of Brienne, because it made no sense for her to be embarrassed about her virginity and to be in a hurry to lose it to a man she respected. Brienne, as a high born lady in the Middle Ages, would logically consider her virginity an asset, but D&D's dudebro mentality took over and wrote a pity fuck for the ugly girl on campus. Their romance was never about sex, it was about one of the best scenes in the show: the moment she was knighted. But then they had to go and ruin it.

I didn't have a problem with Arya's sex scene, but as you said, they can respect a "manly girl", so they gave her a one night stand without getting tied down.    

[Smad]

2 hours ago, Indi said:

Brienne, as a high born lady in the Middle Ages, would logically consider her virginity an asset, but D&D's dudebro mentality took over and wrote a pity fuck for the ugly girl on campus. Their romance was never about sex, it was about one of the best scenes in the show: the moment she was knighted. But then they had to go and ruin it.

I didn't have a problem with Arya's sex scene, but as you said, they can respect a "manly girl", so they gave her a one night stand without getting tied down.

It doesn't make sense for the world they live in. Hasn't for Seasons but this Season was a giant WTF for me. It's like D&D changed the rules when it comes to marriage/romance/sex to our modern times. Arya and Brienne are highborn ladies, they can't just sleep around like that in the world GoT takes place. I give the Arya one a little leeway since they all thought they were going to die but still. Dany and Jon openly showing they are together without being married. And then we get proposals, complete with getting down on one knee. And even Davos proposes a proposal. Since when are proposals a thing in this world? WTH am I watching?

2 hours ago, Indi said:

In Sansa's case, I have to go with the idea that 1) Tyrion knew Sansa would reject the crown or 2) Sansa would have spoken up, like her uncle did, if she wanted the crown. But yeah, that's me bending over backwards to explain away, why Tyrion didn't even look at her with a questioning eyebrow.

It's not Tyrion I have a problem with. Bran had insured that Tyrion would pick him earlier in the Season when Tyrion went to sit down with him. Bran never talks and he never explains anything to anyone. But he made sure to tell Tyrion his entire journey? Not a coincidence.

My problem was more with someone like Royce. Sansa was the only one in a position of power that we have seen for the past 2 Seasons to actually care about the people. How to feed them, to cloth them, where to put them, logistics and caring about an exhausted army. Yes it was hamfisted and came out of nowhere but it was consistent for 2 Seasons. Meanwhile Branbot sacrificed a lot of the people Sansa tried to take care of and LittleFinger-ed everyone to become King. He literally did nothing to help anyone out (except I guess to help his sister with LF but maybe that was just self preservation for him) and used people and moved them around like chess pieces to get himself a crown, even though he supposedly can't be the ruler of anything and doesn't care about anything.

So how is it that Royce for example didn't put Sansa's name forth? What was the point of showing us Royce and Sansa in constant conversations and meetings (almost like he was her Hand) if nothing comes of it? That pit scene should have been the payoff. But nope, only Tyrion gets to talk and put a name forth.

[Eyes High]

43 minutes ago, Smad said:

Since when are proposals a thing in this world? WTH am I watching?

Olenna talked about proposals when she told Margaery the story of how she secured her husband's affections a few seasons ago. It's not a new thing.

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It's not Tyrion I have a problem with. Bran had insured that Tyrion would pick him earlier in the Season when Tyrion went to sit down with him. Bran never talks and he never explains anything to anyone. But he made sure to tell Tyrion his entire journey? Not a coincidence.

Tyrion approached Bran and asked unsolicited for his story. It's not as if Bran cunningly manipulated him into asking, either; Bran even expressed some reluctance over telling him, but Tyrion insisted.

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So how is it that Royce for example didn't put Sansa's name forth? What was the point of showing us Royce and Sansa in constant conversations and meetings (almost like he was her Hand) if nothing comes of it? That pit scene should have been the payoff. But nope, only Tyrion gets to talk and put a name forth.

Tyrion gave everyone an opportunity to put forward names. If Royce wasn't sufficiently impressed by Sansa's acumen to propose her as queen, that's on him.

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Sansa was the only one in a position of power that we have seen for the past 2 Seasons to actually care about the people. 

No, Sansa cared about the people of the North. Sansa couldn't care less about the people of Westeros. She even gloated to Jaime when she realized that Dany was about to go nuclear on KL, since it would mean Cersei's death. Thousands of innocent civilians could die, but hey, Cersei was going to die, too, and that's all that mattered to Sansa. Sansa would be completely unfit to rule people she cares nothing about. Tyrion, on the other hand, truly does care about the people (and all the people), which is probably why Bran immediately named him Hand to be the effective ruler of Westeros so that Bran can chill out and chase dragons or whatever.

Sansa would have no business ruling Westeros and she needs to stay in her lane and stick to the North. To be fair I don't think Sansa would object to that statement, either. She only cares about the North, and everyone else can get fucked, innocent KL civilians or otherwise. She wasn't exactly tripping over herself to propose herself as queen, either. I doubt she has any interest beyond the North at this point, and that's for the best for everyone. 

Edited May 22, 2019 by Eyes High

[Colorful Mess]

By that point when the dealing were being made, Sansa was expecting to get Jon back. That was the whole reason she was there. She sets up the North as independent, then she says regretfully, that the North lost their king. The subtext is that she was clearing the way for Jon to return back to the North to rule. She appeared to like that arrangement. 

[Eyes High]

Michele Clapton on Instagram on the coronation dress:

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The dress was made in the same fabric as the dark Sansa dress, which was the same fabric dyed that was used in Margaery's wedding dress to Joffrey...Sansa had a bond with her. It has falling leaves as its pattern. There is a feathered and embroidered direwolf across her shoulder and not seen here but beautiful red beaded leaves falling from one sleeve. The sleeves are textured like the fur on the first sigil. The metal bodice features the growing branches of the weirwood tree. The Crown is two howling direwolves. Nothing is created without meaning...in the final scene it's my hands dressing Sansa!! Thank you David and Dan for making that possible.

Edited May 22, 2019 by Eyes High

[Minneapple]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

No, Sansa cared about the people of the North. Sansa couldn't care less about the people of Westeros. She even gloated to Jaime when she realized that Dany was about to go nuclear on KL, since it would mean Cersei's death. Thousands of innocent civilians could die, but hey, Cersei was going to die, too, and that's all that mattered to Sansa. Sansa would be completely unfit to rule people she cares nothing about. Tyrion, on the other hand, truly does care about the people (and all the people), which is probably why Bran immediately named him Hand to be the effective ruler of Westeros so that Bran can chill out and chase dragons or whatever.

I agree Sansa cares more about the people of the North, but she didn't know Dany was going to go scorched earth on everyone. She just figured Dany would kill Cersei.

[Constantinople]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

Tyrion, on the other hand, truly does care about the people (and all the people), which is probably why Bran immediately named him Hand to be the effective ruler of Westeros so that Bran can chill out and chase dragons or whatever.

Are you saying Bran's a heroin addict?

[Smad]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Olenna talked about proposals when she told Margaery the story of how she secured her husband's affections a few seasons ago. It's not a new thing.

That's Olenna. Most high born women are bartered away with marriage betrothals because of political alliances. Margery was too, several times, difference is she knew exactly what was up thanks to Olenna.

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Tyrion approached Bran and asked unsolicited for his story. It's not as if Bran cunningly manipulated him into asking, either; Bran even expressed some reluctance over telling him, but Tyrion insisted.

That's why when Sansa asked him what 3ER means, he couldn't bother with an answer. When she asked about the dagger, he couldn't bother with an answer. And it can't be reluctance, even in Tyrion's case, because Bran doesn't have those feelings. If you don't care about anything, you can't be reluctant because again, that means you care.

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Tyrion gave everyone an opportunity to put forward names. If Royce wasn't sufficiently impressed by Sansa's acumen to propose her as queen, that's on him.

You mean because the writers muzzled everyone because only St. Tyrion the Great knows how things should be done. See also Yara and the Prince of Dorne. And everyone. Only Edmure got to speak because they love making him a joke.

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

No, Sansa cared about the people of the North. Sansa couldn't care less about the people of Westeros.

Why should she? Everyone in the South used and abused her. And she kind of had her hands full running both WF and the North with an oncoming apocalypse to also care about the rest of Westeros. None of the other characters cared about the rest of Westeros either. Why single out Sansa who had enough on her plate getting people in the North through it all?

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

She even gloated to Jaime when she realized that Dany was about to go nuclear on KL, since it would mean Cersei's death.

Sansa has greenseeing abilities and knew that would happen? I never noticed she had them. Could have seriously helped her out previously and she wouldn't have ever had to endure Ramsey. And I don't remember the last time someone equated execution (Sansa's word) with going nuclear.

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Sansa would be completely unfit to rule people she cares nothing about. Tyrion, on the other hand, truly does care about the people (and all the people), which is probably why Bran immediately named him Hand to be the effective ruler of Westeros so that Bran can chill out and chase dragons or whatever.

When did Tyrion ever care about the people? Considering he is complicit in the mass murder of a million people. Varys cared, that's why he pre-emptively tried to stop Dany before Tyrion ratted him out. Tyrion did nothing to stop Dany which makes him guilty. And I don't remember any scene of Tyrion caring beyond what we see most good characters on this show do. He gave a woman with a baby in her arms a coin once while in Mereen and that's it. Bran probably named him Hand because Tyrion is colossal failure and Bran is all about ruining the lives of people. Just ask all the dead from the Long Night and the KL bombing which he actively brought about. So did Tyrion.

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Sansa would have no business ruling Westeros and she needs to stay in her lane and stick to the North.

Stay in her lane? Like a good girl? Wow that is sexist.

[Eyes High]

29 minutes ago, Smad said:

That's Olenna. Most high born women are bartered away with marriage betrothals because of political alliances. Margery was too, several times, difference is she knew exactly what was up thanks to Olenna.

Irrelevant. You asked since when proposals are a thing in Westeros. I told you.

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That's why when Sansa asked him what 3ER means, he couldn't bother with an answer. 

No, he did explain. "Tell me your life story" is a much easier question to answer than "Explain how your omniscient powers of perception work."

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When she asked about the dagger, he couldn't bother with an answer. And it can't be reluctance, even in Tyrion's case, because Bran doesn't have those feelings. If you don't care about anything, you can't be reluctant because again, that means you care.

Irrelevant. Bran didn't manipulate Tyrion into asking him about his past as part of some Machiavellian plan as you weirdly implied. Tyrion freely asked, and Bran freely answered. 

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You mean because the writers muzzled everyone because only St. Tyrion the Great knows how things should be done. See also Yara and the Prince of Dorne. And everyone. Only Edmure got to speak because they love making him a joke.

Irrelevant. If Royce thought Sansa queen material, he could have put her name forward. If you're going to complain about what the writers "allowed" to happen, that's another issue.

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Why should she? Everyone in the South used and abused her. 

Who cares about her reasons? That is utterly irrelevant. She doesn't care about the south or anyone who lives there, which was my point. She’s unfit to rule them.

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Tyrion did nothing to stop Dany which makes him guilty

That's not what happened. 

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Stay in her lane? Like a good girl? Wow that is sexist.

Sansa definitely does need to stay in her lane, but again, Sansa would hardly disagree with that statement. And it’s not sexist to point out that her lack of interest in the south and its people’s welfare are disqualifying factors. Sansa demanding secession no matter the destabilizing effect it may have on the remaining six kingdoms is another sign that she’s no fit queen for anything other than the North.

Edited May 22, 2019 by Eyes High

[Constantinople]

2 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

By that point when the dealing were being made, Sansa was expecting to get Jon back. That was the whole reason she was there. She sets up the North as independent, then she says regretfully, that the North lost their king. The subtext is that she was clearing the way for Jon to return back to the North to rule. She appeared to like that arrangement. 

I agree, but Sansa should have known that she was taking a big risk when she told Tyrion about Jon/Aegon, and almost no way of controlling the consequences.

I'm not entirely sure she's ready to rule an independent country.

[ShellsandCheese]

Neither Sansa nor Bran were King/Queen of the Realm material. At least not how it played out on the show. At this point, it is what it is. Personally, I think Sansa's character arc has been lacking since the marriage with Ramsay storyline. Based on what I've seen on the show, this is all she did since then:

Season Six: Pouts, moans, and bitches to Jon about taking back Winterfell, her home. When Jon, Sansa, and Davos tried to get Northern forces to fight with the Starks few were willing to follow Sansa. The ones that did followed because of Jon and Davos persuasion or because they had suffered under the Bolton's. She nitpicked everything Jon did but didn't really offer an valuable advice, other than "don't do what he (Ramsay) wants you to do". Apparently, she had already written Rickon off as a goner but failed to mention that to Jon and instead then used Rickon to play at Jon's heart strings some more. She also failed to mention that she was apparently actively working her connection with Littlefinger to try and get more men to fight for the cause. Jon was then left to fight with what he had until The Vale showed up to save the day (which Sansa never let anyone forget) and after untold numbers of Northmen, Stark Bannermen, and Wildings had already been killed on the field of battle. And that's just everything leading up to BoTB.  

Season Seven: She reminded everyone to send food to Winterfell and apparently needed to tell a seasoned commander that his soldiers needed plating because it's so cold in the North. And she whined and complained about Jon being gone, while he was out trying to get resources to fight the AoTD. She was played by Littlefinger for the entire season and he was turning her against her sister. 

But I'm not even mad that she's Queen in the North. It's what she been wanting probably since the BoTB. So props to her for getting it. 

Edited May 22, 2019 by ShellsandCheese

[Colorful Mess]

27 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I agree, but Sansa should have known that she was taking a big risk when she told Tyrion about Jon/Aegon, and almost no way of controlling the consequences.

I'm not entirely sure she's ready to rule an independent country.

She misjudged how deeply Tyrion was into the cult. She expected Tyrion to do the right thing when it mattered and work with Varys to help put Jon on the throne. I'm sure he wishes he would have listened to Sansa when she said Jon is "someone better."

I think her instincts for ruling are just fine. She won the game of thrones. 

Edited May 22, 2019 by Colorful Mess

[ShellsandCheese]

15 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

She misjudged how deeply Tyrion was into the cult. She expected Tyrion to do the right thing when it mattered and work with Varys to help put Jon on the throne. I'm sure he wishes he would have listened to Sansa when she said Jon is "someone better."

I think her instincts for ruling are just fine. She won the game of thrones. 

She didn't though. She's Queen in the North. Not Queen of the Realm. Bran won the Game of the Thrones; even though he wasn't playing. LOL.

[Colorful Mess]

2 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

She didn't though. She's Queen in the North. Not Queen of the Realm. Bran won the Game of the Thrones; even though he wasn't playing. LOL.

She's queen of her own realm. She won.

Simple statements about Sansa winning anything must both you.

[Advance35]

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She's queen of her own realm. She won.

I feel like she won because she got what she wanted (though others were actively working against it, remember Dany smirking at Sansa, that she would rule all seven Kingdoms) and outlived her enemies (Cersei and Daenaerys).

I have know doubt Sansa will leverage her relationships with Bran, Tyrion, Robin, Lord Royce, Brienne and even Edmure, in the future, if she needs too.

[Colorful Mess]

3 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

I feel like she won because she got what she wanted (though others were actively working against it, remember Dany smirking at Sansa, that she would rule all seven Kingdoms) and outlived her enemies (Cersei and Daenaerys).

I have know doubt Sansa will leverage her relationships with Bran, Tyrion, Robin, Lord Royce, Brienne and even Edmure, in the future, if she needs too.

Yes and this was always the theory behind a Time for Wolves, that the Starks would rise, mostly by being patient, building good will, and waiting for everyone else to self-destruct. 

[Maximum Taco]

21 hours ago, GraceK said:

So. I am not a Sansa fan. But honestly? I think it’s bullshit that Sansa freaking STARK is sitting there in the dragonpit and Tyrion freakin nominates BRAN?????  Yeah I get that her destiny is to be queen of the north. But at least nominate the fucking badass woman who is capable and is deserving of being a queen and have her TURN IT DOWN for the North, then to completely overlook her for her brother, AGAIN. 🤦🏻‍♀️ I just can’t. Seriously. Fuck you d and d. And not even have Yara ask for independence either , when they have always been about it? Or DORNE????? Are you kidding?? Only the north gets it???

Agreed. 

At the meeting in the Dragonpit it seems just ridiculous to have no one speak for her. Yohn Royce and Robin Arryn turned over all their armies to her, her Uncle is Lord Paramount of the Riverlands, and her brother has already refused the Lordship of Winterfell. Tyrion himself should be backing Sansa for the crown, he knows her better then Bran and can see that she has experience ruling the North, and yet for some reason he chooses Bran because "Oh that's a cool story. Crippled King! Hey I can call him Bran the Broken!!!" 

Really if her goal was the Iron Throne, Sansa should have cultivated enough support in that room to control a good deal of the voting block. She should be able to count on her own vote, Arya's, Brienne's, Bronze Yohn's and Robin Arryn's at minimum. 

Personally I was expecting someone to nominate Sansa and have her turn down the crown in favor of Northern Independence. Sansa doesn't want the Iron Throne, she doesn't want to be in King's Landing. Her whole story is about coming home, but a little acknowledgement to her worthiness to be the Queen would be nice. 

Edited May 23, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[GraceK]

3 hours ago, Maximum Taco said:

Agreed. 

At the meeting in the Dragonpit it seems just ridiculous to have no one speak for her. Yohn Royce and Robin Arryn turned over all their armies to her, her Uncle is Lord Paramount of the Riverlands, and her brother has already refused the Lordship of Winterfell. Tyrion himself should be backing Sansa for the crown, he knows her better then Bran and can see that she has experience ruling the North, and yet for some reason he chooses Bran because "Oh that's a cool story. Crippled King! Hey I can call him Bran the Broken!!!" 

Really if her goal was the Iron Throne, Sansa should have cultivated enough support in that room to control a good deal of the voting block. She should be able to count on her own vote, Arya's, Brienne's, Bronze Yohn's and Robin Arryn's at minimum. 

Personally I was expecting someone to nominate Sansa and have her turn down the crown in favor of Northern Independence. Sansa doesn't want the Iron Throne, she doesn't want to be in King's Landing. Her whole story is about coming home, but a little acknowledgement to her worthiness to be the Queen would be nice. 

Seriously. If even someone like me, a non Sansa fan, can point that out without bias, that shows shitty writing. Bran the broken has the best story? Really? Not Sansa Stark, who survived Ramsey Bolton, Cersei Lannister, Joffrey, Kings Landing and saved the North? Who out witted all her enemies and became a major player in her own right? Not Arya Stark, who killed the NK and took out the Frey’s and avenged the red wedding ON HER OWN and saved EDMURE TULLY who is standing right there? Not Yara Greyjoy who took back the iron islands? Hell, even Robyn Arryn, whose Knights of the Vale rode forth at HIS WORD to join the battle against the Bolton’s, and stayed to fight against the AOTD, deserves more credit than Bran.🤦🏻‍♀️ That’s why I’m so mad. Nothing about  this ending is “ breaking the wheel”.  it’s all the same. Men in power, doing the same shit. It’s the same cycle, it’s season one , all over again. A disinterested King, a Lannister Hand, a greedy master of coin, oh and Brienne of Tarth whitewashing Jaimes deeds.

did anyone else notice that she wrote “ took back Riverrun from the Tully rebel’s?!” Catelyn Stark must be rolling over in her grave. How gross is that?

Edited May 23, 2019 by GraceK

[Constantinople]

16 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

She misjudged how deeply Tyrion was into the cult. She expected Tyrion to do the right thing when it mattered and work with Varys to help put Jon on the throne. I'm sure he wishes he would have listened to Sansa when she said Jon is "someone better."

I think her instincts for ruling are just fine. She won the game of thrones. 

She's on the throne, at least for now.

But did she win?

Everyone in her family, or everyone she sees as family or loyal (Theon and Brienne) is dead or gone.

[GodsBeloved]

36 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

She's on the throne, at least for now.

But did she win?

Everyone in her family, or everyone she sees as family or loyal (Theon and Brienne) is dead or gone.

I think she did since the North is independent now and that is what we know she wanted.

Losing Theon was definitely a loss for her but I think Brienne, while gone, isn't a loss because Brienne is doing what she's always wanted to do.

Jon is just up the street and Arya is out there somewhere but again they both seem to be where they want to be.

I count those as a wins for Sansa too. 

Edited May 23, 2019 by GodsBeloved

[Advance35]

Quote

I think she did since the North is independent now and that is what we know she wanted.

Losing Theon was definitely a loss for her but I think Brienne, while gone, isn't a loss because Brienne is doing what she's always wanted to do.

Jon is just up the street and Arya is out there somewhere but again they both seem to be where they want to be.

I count those as a wins for Sansa too. 

That's how I saw Sansa's ending as well.  It really is a new beginning.  

There is no reason to think she can't contact Brienne or Lord Royce/Robyn Arryn if she ever has an idea she thinks could be mutually advantageous.  I don't doubt Bran/Tyrion would hear her out as well.

Jon was angry about Sansa telling his secret but he still couldn't restrain himself from embracing her (tightly) when she reached out.   She and Arya parted on good terms.

I think Sansa will do fine.  Dany making Gendry Lord of Storm's end to cement his loyalty was something Sansa was doing in Season 7 (or trying).  She wanted to reward the most loyal houses with the spoils of war, while Jon vetoed that at the time, I imagine there is some new property Sansa will be deciding what to do with.   Rewarding and elevating those she feels she can trust and who will help rebuild the North after recent loss.

These are choices she will get to make, something that would likely be out of her hands if Dany were still around.

Edited May 23, 2019 by Advance35

[izabella]

9 hours ago, GraceK said:

Seriously. If even someone like me, a non Sansa fan, can point that out without bias, that shows shitty writing. Bran the broken has the best story? Really? Not Sansa Stark, who survived Ramsey Bolton, Cersei Lannister, Joffrey, Kings Landing and saved the North? Who out witted all her enemies and became a major player in her own right? Not Arya Stark, who killed the NK and took out the Frey’s and avenged the red wedding ON HER OWN and saved EDMURE TULLY who is standing right there? Not Yara Greyjoy who took back the iron islands? Hell, even Robyn Arryn, whose Knights of the Vale rode forth at HIS WORD to join the battle against the Bolton’s, and stayed to fight against the AOTD, deserves more credit than Bran.🤦🏻‍♀️ That’s why I’m so mad. Nothing about  this ending is “ breaking the wheel”.  it’s all the same. Men in power, doing the same shit. It’s the same cycle, it’s season one , all over again. A disinterested King, a Lannister Hand, a greedy master of coin, oh and Brienne of Tarth whitewashing Jaimes deeds.

did anyone else notice that she wrote “ took back Riverrun from the Tully rebel’s?!” Catelyn Stark must be rolling over in her grave. How gross is that?

Thank you.  You succinctly put into words all my grievances.  The wheel was not broken, just turned a tiny bit to reward the undeserving.  

[Maximum Taco]

2 hours ago, Advance35 said:

I think Sansa will do fine.  Dany making Gendry Lord of Storm's end to cement his loyalty was something Sansa was doing in Season 7 (or trying).  She wanted to reward the most loyal houses with the spoils of war, while Jon vetoed that at the time, I imagine there is some new property Sansa will be deciding what to do with.   Rewarding and elevating those she feels she can trust and who will help rebuild the North after recent loss.

These are choices she will get to make, something that would likely be out of her hands if Dany were still around.

The Boltons of the Dreadfort were obviously extinguished by Sansa herself

The Umbers of Last Hearth were wiped out by the Night King

Lyanna Mormont the last scion of House Mormont of Bear Island as well as Alys Karstark the last scion House Karstark of Karhold were killed in the Battle of Winterfell, extinguishing their houses. 

So yeah, Sansa has a lot of appointments to make, and that will help her to have a tight hold on loyalty in the North. 

Edited May 23, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[Constantinople]

Some have remarked that Sansa should try to be more like Margaery -- velvet fist in iron glove / a woman's armor is her courtesy -- for example, in the way Sansa treated Daenerys in Winterfell.

Leaving aside the wisdom of that, and if Sansa can even fake it that well, it occurred to me while watching some episodes from Season 3 last night that Sansa takes after Olenna more than Margaery. Olenna was often direct to the point of being rude.

[Constantinople]

13 hours ago, Maximum Taco said:

So yeah, Sansa has a lot of appointments to make, and that will help her to have a tight hold on loyalty in the North. 

Not if they adopt the same What have you done for me lately? attitude that Sansa and Ayra adopted toward Daenerys.

[Lokiberry]

6 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Not if they adopt the same What have you done for me lately? attitude that Sansa and Ayra adopted toward Daenerys.

When the Northmen return with tales of the unimaginable horror Dany rained down on King's Landing and how it was the Stark children who ended her, brought peace to Westeros and independence for the North, it's only going to solidify Stark rule. 

The Starks have ruled the North for 8000 years. Those that opposed them or failed to honor oaths  are all dead. A Stark rules in the North and the South. The North's not going to turn on their rightful ruler now because of petty politics or because Jon shanked the crazy foreign queen who burned thousands of innocent men, women and children alive. If anything the outcome of this mess will only strenghten their belief in the Starks.

[Maximum Taco]

7 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Not if they adopt the same What have you done for me lately? attitude that Sansa and Ayra adopted toward Daenerys.

That's not really the attitude they adopted with Dany though, she did a lot for them lately. They more just didn't trust her because they didn't know her.

[Drogo]

10 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

That's not really the attitude they adopted with Dany though, she did a lot for them lately. They more just didn't trust her because they didn't know her.

She saved all of their asses, and they didn't trust her because she wasn't a Northerner.  They didn't trust her when they first laid eyes on her, they didn't trust her long before KL. 

Luckily the North doesn't care about whether Sansa has actually done anything for them aside from putting leather on armor or whether she hid shaking behind her father's tomb while innocents were killed in the Battle of Winterfell or whether she jeopardized all their lives by poking dragon queens when there wasn't any need- they only care that she's a Stark. 

[Maximum Taco]

4 minutes ago, Drogo said:

She saved all of their asses, and they didn't trust her because she wasn't a Northerner.  They didn't trust her when they first laid eyes on her, they didn't trust her long before KL. 

Luckily the North doesn't care about whether Sansa has actually done anything for them aside from putting leather on armor or whether she hid shaking behind her father's tomb while innocents were killed in the Battle of Winterfell or whether she jeopardized all their lives by poking dragon queens when there wasn't any need- they only care that she's a Stark. 

And they ware right. Dany was crazy town banana pants. 

As poorly executed as Dany's heel turn was from a writing standpoint (and it was very poorly executed) the fact that it happened validates Arya and Sansa's reaction to her wanting to rule them.

They didn't trust her because they didn't know her, and she turned out to be violent and volatile and capable of just unspeakable horror. 

Sansa's antagonism of Dany was probably over the top and unwarranted, but her resistance to being ruled by her was obviously prudent, she was going to lock the Northerners and all of Westeros into a never ending war. 

[Drogo]

6 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

And they ware right. Dany was crazy town banana pants. 

As poorly executed as Dany's heel turn was from a writing standpoint (and it was very poorly executed) the fact that it happened validates Arya and Sansa's reaction to her wanting to rule them.

They didn't trust her because they didn't know her, and she turned out to be violent and volatile and capable of just unspeakable horror. 

Sansa's antagonism of Dany was probably over the top and unwarranted, but her resistance to being ruled by her was obviously prudent, she was going to lock the Northerners and all of Westeros into a never ending war. 

If I'm an asshole to someone from the second I meet them and later they turn out to be worthy of that dislike, it doesn't validate my shitty actions from the past.  They might be a real asshole but I'm not validated, I'm just another asshole.

Truly if I had to spend as much time as Daenerys did listening to self-important ungrateful Sansa Stark drone on and on about a territory she was so eager to abandon most of her life and tolerate her dirty looks while I have two dragons at my beck and call because she's potential fam, I would've gone mad myself.

[GodsBeloved]

20 hours ago, Drogo said:

She saved all of their asses,

She, the Unsullied and Dothraki helped save the world from the NK. They didn’t do it by themselves and it was Arya’s weapon not Dany’s that took down the NK.

Now on to Sansa. I’m watching the finale again and the Sansa/Edmure scene is even more funny than it was originally.

 

Edited May 25, 2019 by GodsBeloved

[QuinnM]

1 minute ago, GodsBeloved said:

Now on to Sansa. I’m watching the finale again and the Sansa/Edmure scene is even more funny than it was originally.

The second time through for me I noticed the second set of side eyes actually walked his ass back to the chair.  

[Umbelina]

The North Remembers.

They know plenty of stories about Targs and their nutso behavior and they certainly know tales of dragons.  Dany was not completely unknown to them, because her family has a history.  Also, she rolled in with DRAGONS. 

Honestly, who wants dragons in their neighborhood, especially dragons that belong to someone who announces she is your new leader, so bow!

Honestly, it's just bizarre to me to think that anyone would welcome someone like that, let alone welcome their dragons. 

Sansa is known, and she proved herself in saving Winterfell, and has alliances with others, including the Vale.  She has calmly and efficiently proven herself, and comes from a family people in the North know, respect, and have relied on for thousands of years. 

She also arrived with thousands of foreign soldiers, something that doesn't inspire a lot of love.

Edited May 24, 2019 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Drogo said:

If I'm an asshole to someone from the second I meet them and later they turn out to be worthy of that dislike, it doesn't validate my shitty actions from the past.  They might be a real asshole but I'm not validated, I'm just another asshole.

Truly if I had to spend as much time as Daenerys did listening to self-important ungrateful Sansa Stark drone on and on about a territory she was so eager to abandon most of her life and tolerate her dirty looks while I have two dragons at my beck and call because she's potential fam, I would've gone mad myself.

If you show up at someone's home announcing yourself their new leader, they'll probably be resentful of you from the start.  If you saw that as ungrateful you probably actually would be validating their reactions. Because who wouldn't react like that?

Regarding Sansa in the tombs, I definitely don't think anybody would hold it against her. It's perfectly reasonable to not pick your leaders based on who's the best soldier. If she'd been out there she'd just have gotten herself killed or gotten other people killed by being in the way. It's like insisting the king be a great football player.

It wasn't well done, but a lot of the stuff Sansa's criticized for whining about is exactly why you'd want her managing the country because it's the stuff the people would be whining about. People might prefer to cheer for the hero king who's a great orator but Sansa would be in charge of making sure there were enough chairs for everybody to come to the speech and enough porto-potties. The fact that she also is a great dresser with a chilly demeanor would only be a plus to Northerners imo.

[Drogo]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

If you show up at someone's home announcing yourself their new leader, they'll probably be resentful of you from the start.  If you saw that as ungrateful you probably actually would be validating their reactions. Because who wouldn't react like that?

This is a strange analogy.  Did Daenerys show up to Sansa's home and "announce herself" as Sansa's new leader?  Or did the King of Sansa's country swear their allegiance to a larger force and she showed up as exactly that? 

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, Drogo said:

This is a strange analogy.  Did Daenerys show up to Sansa's home and "announce herself" as Sansa's new leader?  Or did the King of Sansa's country swear their allegiance to a larger force and she showed up as exactly that? 

Well, when the King is love struck and being an idiot? 

You do what you have to do.

Thank heavens the King finally came to his senses and killed the "visitor" before she burned down Winterfell, and murdered the remaining people in the North.  

[Drogo]

20 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Thank heavens the King finally came to his senses and killed the "visitor" before she burned down Winterfell, and murdered the remaining people in the North. 

Except he wasn't the King, and she wasn't a visitor.

[Umbelina]

40 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Except he wasn't the King, and she wasn't a visitor.

No, she was an invader who bragged about conquering all of Westeros with Fire and Blood.

Jon should have bought a vowel.

ETA

Not to mention Dany brought dragons and two huge armies of foreigners to take over the land the Westerosi had lived in for thousands of years. 

Edited May 24, 2019 by Umbelina

[Lokiberry]

7 hours ago, Drogo said:

If I'm an asshole to someone from the second I meet them and later they turn out to be worthy of that dislike, it doesn't validate my shitty actions from the past.  They might be a real asshole but I'm not validated, I'm just another asshole.

Truly if I had to spend as much time as Daenerys did listening to self-important ungrateful Sansa Stark drone on and on about a territory she was so eager to abandon most of her life and tolerate her dirty looks while I have two dragons at my beck and call because she's potential fam, I would've gone mad myself.

From the moment anybody on this show ever met Dany that had to listen to her drone on and on about how self-important she was, how entitled she was to rule, and how if they didn't bow down to her they would meet a violent end. But, of course, Sansa giving her dirty looks is exactly the same as burning people alive. 

The people of Westeros are better off having a tree rule over them. At least they won't have to sit through 15 minutes of vanity titles every time they need to go and see him. 

[Advance35]

Quote

The people of Westeros are better off having a tree rule over them. At least they won't have to sit through 15 minutes of vanity titles every time they need to go and see him. 

I hate that I had to sit through it. Ugh.

I will forever mourn that we didn't get to see what Olenna Tyrell REALLY thought about Daenaerys.  Or did we.  She told Jamie "Your brother and HIS new Queen."  Me thinks The Queen of Thorns wasn't sold on her either.

I still maintain Sansa was right.  She obeyed the strictly required courtesies but if Daenaerys wanted more she needed to grant Northern Independence.  That would have made Sansa and The North a staunch friend to the crown (if she had ever gotten it) but that wasn't enough for Dany.  She needed Sansa to say "Hail Hydra."

When blind adoration wasn't coming from everyone, Dany's true colors began to show.  She was always a monster and the cage door swung wide open.

[Drogo]

8 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

She told Jamie "Your brother and HIS new Queen."  Me thinks The Queen of Thorns wasn't sold on her either.

I still maintain Sansa was right.  She obeyed the strictly required courtesies

Sansa did the minimum, yes. And it worked out for her, because all the people of action are either dead or banished.  Filler folk are thriving in Westeros now.

Olenna would be thrilled at the destruction of KL. She only joined the cause because she was promised Fire and Blood, and she literally told Daenerys she needed to instill fear in the populace to win their loyalty.  She was pissed when Jamie arrived because Daenerys was too passive for taste at the time and hadn't struck at KL yet, losing Highgarden in the process (thanks for the advice, Tyrion).