S04.E01: A Tale Of Two Sisters

[Dani-Ellie]

Or entirely forgetting that she has a son while she's all caught up in her relationship drama because the universe owes her true love.

 

Oh, this goes up my ass sideways. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Regina willing to put herself under a sleeping curse a year ago because she couldn't bear to live without Henry? And now that her week-long relationship may be crumbling around her, she's avoiding the son she just got back after thinking for a year that he was lost to her forever? Seriously??

 

For crying out loud, Regina, enough with the dramatics.

[FabulousTater]

Oh, this goes up my ass sideways. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Regina willing to put herself under a sleeping curse a year ago because she couldn't bear to live without Henry? And now that her week-long relationship may be crumbling around her, she's avoiding the son she just got back after thinking for a year that he was lost to her forever? Seriously??

 

For crying out loud, Regina, enough with the dramatics.

No freakin' kidding. It's like she's the Veruca Salt of the Enchanted Forest with a mass murder and assault rap sheet to boot.

[Shanna Marie]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Regina willing to put herself under a sleeping curse a year ago because she couldn't bear to live without Henry? And now that her week-long relationship may be crumbling around her, she's avoiding the son she just got back after thinking for a year that he was lost to her forever?

Not to mention that just a few days ago, she was able to give True Love's Kiss to him and break the spell. Not that I expect a parent to be permanently attached to a tween kid, but I would expect that a parent who's just been reunited with a kid after fearing him lost for good would be so caught up in that reunion that she wouldn't have had time to worry about a romantic relationship or to think that she'd lost all happiness when she lost the romantic relationship. I'm even a little amazed that she was having a date with Robin in the finale after finally having a chance to be with Henry and have him know who she was. She spent more time with her son before he got his memories back than she did afterward. It was like, "Oh, good, you know who I am. Now, see ya, gotta go, got a hot date."

 

Really, the flip-flopping in this episode doesn't bother me so much because it's pretty consistent with the way the portrayal of Regina has been executed. It's what you'd expect from someone who's trying to live up to someone else's standards of being "good" without really getting it and without really feeling all that bad about the way she used to be. Without having that moment of self-awareness and repentance, she can't be expected to be consistently good because there's absolutely nothing guiding her moral compass. She hasn't had that "hey, this is where I went wrong" realization that Hook has had. I'm not even sure that she's figured out that she did go wrong, just that what she was doing wasn't getting her what she wanted. So it makes sense for her to flip out when she didn't get immediate gratification for being good and to fall back on old habits without an ounce of self-awareness that she's the one responsible for the situation she's in, and blaming others for her unhappiness. Where the problem comes is what the show tells us through the other characters -- they believe she's really changed and call her a hero and don't seem to notice the flip-flopping -- and what the show just showed us with that whole mess about True Love's Kiss and being a more powerful wielder of light magic coming from love than even Glinda the Good Witch, even while she was keeping a man locked up and forgotten about and even with her soul still at the point where her first impulse is to have any impediment to her happiness killed. That's the part that Does Not Compute. Someone who can wield light magic from love should be incapable of planning to solve her personal problems through murder. Someone who loves that strongly should be happy for him being reunited with his wife and his son having a mother again, smiling bravely through her tears because she can find joy in his happiness even if it didn't work out for her. No, that's not a normal human reaction, but having such powerful love that you can switch your magic from dark to light apparently isn't normal, either. That should be a really high standard.

 

And I can't even with Robin. Even if he didn't get the "Regina would have executed Marian if Emma hadn't rescued her" briefing, he knew Marian was terrified of Regina. That doesn't bother him at all? Did he even thank Emma for saving Marian? Or does he agree with Regina that Emma should have let well enough alone?

 

One thing that does salvage all this is that none of the people coddling Regina have any idea that she's been scheming with Sidney to destroy Marian. I would hope that if they did learn, they'd change the way they felt about this.

 

You know, if they'd skipped the lame "do you want to build a snowman" homage scene, which added nothing to the story, they'd have had a few minutes they could have devoted to developing at least one of the other plot lines.

[Rumsy4]

"Did he even thank Emma for saving Marian? Or does he agree with Regina that Emma should have let well enough alone?"

Taking this to the Robin thread.

[Camera One]

Speaking of Henry, what was with the point of the line about Henry dealing with both his moms having new men in their lives.  Has Snow seen evidence that Henry has a problem with his moms dating?  He seemed impressed when he met Robin Hood, and he enjoyed spending time with Hook AND he was basically Emma's go-to confidant for boyfriend issues in New York.   It seems like they couldn't care less what garbage lines they feed Snow.  

Edited October 3, 2014 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

So I just rewatched the episode, and it seemed much better, especially as I could skip the worst of the sad-Regina scenes. A really odd detail I noticed--why was Rumple dressed in shirt and pants with the belt on the night of his honeymoon? He literally gets out of bed to check out the Hat, and he's fully clothed. I guess Robbie didn't want to go shirtless (:-p), but Mr. Gold doesn't own pajamas? Or did Taco-time not happen?  Belle was sleeping in a lingerie (and full makeup).

Edited October 3, 2014 by Rumsy4

[scenicbyway]

I just rewatched tonight and what's bothering me is that it's pretty clear that Lana and Giancarlo are not in those scenes together. It's obvious in the cell but even in the vault they are using a split screen for the shots.

[Camera One]

So I just rewatched the episode, and it seemed much better, especially as I could skip the worst of the sad-Regina scenes.

 

LOL, skipping Regina is not allowed.

[Rumsy4]

LOL, skipping Regina is not allowed.

 

Have you no compassion for my poor nerves? ;-)

[InsertWordHere]

I have the pleasure of understanding you ;)

 

How long was the episode without the Regina angst? 20 minutes?

[Rumsy4]

How long was the episode without the Regina angst? 20 minutes?

 

About that. Yeah. ;-) I also muted the "help me" Marian scene. Maybe I should start muting Regina scenes first viewing, and just keep the CC on. 

[Ravenya003]

My curiosity got the better of me and I tuned in.

 

Ten points on the casting for Elsa and Anna. They embodied those characters to perfect (sans the bad cosplaying outfits). Honestly though, all of their scenes felt like they belonged on a totally different show. If the writers wanted to play with these particular characters, another spin-off probably would have worked better. And it was BAD idea to try and recreate that rock troll. They looked goofy enough in the actual movie; next to real humans it was like a cartoon character forcing its way through alternative dimensions. They should have just redesigned that whole thing.

 

I'm afraid I'm totally sick and tired of Regina at this point. Her constant bellyaching about her personal happiness in the wake of thousands of ruined lives is beyond a joke.

 

I'd like to think that Emma's hesitation about Hook is down to the fact that he once shot an unarmed woman in the back, but they'll probably just say it's commitment issues.

 

I don't think I'll ever forgive this show for turning my favourite Disney princess into such an insipid twit. And what's up with Emilie de Ravin? I liked her just fine as Clare on LOST, but now she can't even manage a simple sentence without contorting her face into all sorts of bizarre expressions.  

[Rumsy4]

 

I liked her just fine as Clare on LOST, but now she can't even manage a simple sentence without contorting her face into all sorts of bizarre expressions.

 

I was cringing, especially on the rewatch. It's like Belle has near-constant constipation. 

Edited October 3, 2014 by Rumsy4

[ShadowFacts]

Oh, this goes up my ass sideways. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Regina willing to put herself under a sleeping curse a year ago because she couldn't bear to live without Henry? And now that her week-long relationship may be crumbling around her, she's avoiding the son she just got back after thinking for a year that he was lost to her forever? Seriously??

 

For crying out loud, Regina, enough with the dramatics.

 

Ditto, and thanks for the laugh.  Henry has been almost killed what, 3 times?  Regina had to give him up forever, she thought, and now she can't be bothered with him because she's in pain.  It really does not surprise me,  Regina has never had maternal or human warmth since way back when she saved Snow White.  I mean, she sent children to their death.  I never bought the whole load of garbage of her true love for Henry, they showed us otherwise in season 1. 

 

 

One thing that does salvage all this is that none of the people coddling Regina have any idea that she's been scheming with Sidney to destroy Marian. I would hope that if they did learn, they'd change the way they felt about this.

 

Only if they didn't have Regina lobotomies.  They would probably only feel like they have to prop her up more. 

[Curio]

Not that I expect a parent to be permanently attached to a tween kid, but I would expect that a parent who's just been reunited with a kid after fearing him lost for good would be so caught up in that reunion that she wouldn't have had time to worry about a romantic relationship or to think that she'd lost all happiness when she lost the romantic relationship. I'm even a little amazed that she was having a date with Robin in the finale after finally having a chance to be with Henry and have him know who she was. She spent more time with her son before he got his memories back than she did afterward. It was like, "Oh, good, you know who I am. Now, see ya, gotta go, got a hot date."

 

Wow. I'm surprised it took me this long to make the connection, but the writers are basically stealing the exact same plot line they used for Rumple/Neal/Lacey in Season 2 for this Regina/Henry/Robin stuff. I mean, all you have to do is replace "Regina" with "Rumple," "Henry" with "Neal," and "Robin" with "Lacey" in that paragraph and it's pretty much identical.

[Camera One]

Since Henry has been made into such a Regina-cheerleader, I'm surprised they don't have him trying to spend time with Regina?  Henry made absolutely no move towards that direction at all in this episode.  Isn't it due time for another pep talk rendition of "You're a hero"?  After all, it has been more than 8 hours since the last one.  He seems to be afraid Regina might turn evil, so why wouldn't he try to spend time with her in her hour of need?  Would she have time to go seek out Sidney and devise her plan of getting rid of Marion and/or finding the author of the book if Henry was always at her side?  

[Shanna Marie]

Henry made absolutely no move towards that direction at all in this episode.

He did try calling her. We don't know if she actually took his call because it was during the call that Hook showed up, and we then followed Hook and Emma as they ran around after the snowman from hell.

 

Upon rewatch, I found myself wondering if they meant the massive dose of irony or if they really are that clueless. They had all this talk about how Regina had changed, how she'd come so far, etc., and the first thing she does is go to the man she's kept imprisoned her in private dungeon to come up with a way to kill Marian and not get blamed for it. I guess we won't know until later if her new plan to find the author of the book and get a happy ending is an improvement or a sign of growth on her part because it depends on how she expects that happy ending to be given to her -- erase Marian from the book? Write in Marian's execution? Or give herself some new hero other than Robin?

[Camera One]

Thanks for the reminder.  I guess the writers felt whether or not Regina took the call was irrelevant to the action?  Though one would think taking Henry's call could have made her think twice about letting the snow monster kill Marion.  She still seemed pretty obsessive afterwards, even though she changed to the plan of finding the book's author.

 

I guess Henry and Emma are still staying at Granny's.  I wonder if we will finally see that dropped S2 plot about finding a house, or if they want to keep Snow's loft.  I suppose they could just move in across the hall, by saying a neighbor vacated.  I was hoping to see some discussion about all of that in this episode.  

 

How did Snow know Emma was "with" Hook.  Did Emma tell her about the kiss?  When would that have been?

[stealinghome]

How did Snow know Emma was "with" Hook.  Did Emma tell her about the kiss?  When would that have been?

I guess overnight? I actually kind of assumed that Emma and Henry are back in the loft, now that Henry has his memories back. I don't think that's a permanent state of affairs, of course, but I have to think that Henry and Emma would want to be close to Snow and Charming now that they remember.

 

I do totally wish we'd gotten the scene of Emma telling Snow, though.

Edited October 4, 2014 by stealinghome

[Shanna Marie]

I guess the writers felt whether or not Regina took the call was irrelevant to the action?

Yeah, that really would have told us a lot about her. I could see her avoiding Emma, but if she's avoiding Henry's calls, she really does have her priorities out of whack. I don't remember exactly how the scenes aligned, but I think she was with Sidney around that time, so I'm thinking she didn't take the call. Maybe she doesn't get good cell reception in her vault.

 

How did Snow know Emma was "with" Hook.  Did Emma tell her about the kiss?  When would that have been?

Maybe she looked out the window while they were out on the patio, making out?

 

Really, that whole conversation made no sense and was one of those Pay No Attention to the Man Behind the Curtain things. The Exposition Fairy had handed her wand to Snow to make sure the audience knew that Hook and Emma had just gotten together. There shouldn't have been much of a need to worry about what Henry would think because it's not like Hook had just entered Emma's life. He's been Emma's go-to babysitter and was the one helping Henry cope with the death of his father. Henry gave him the book to go talk Emma down from the ledge when she had her "I'm moving to New York" freakout. That's all been a close enough relationship that the fact that Emma has kissed Hook (again) shouldn't make that big a difference to Henry. He'd probably just roll his eyes and say "finally!" He was even looking for a waterfront apartment when he was looking for a place for Emma to live.

 

Considering they barely had time to fit in the major plot stuff and even tabled a bit of important character stuff, I'm not surprised the issue of where to live hasn't come up yet. Though it would have been funny if Emma had noted, "Oh, look, that apartment is for rent," as they ran past a building with the snowman chasing them.

[Camera One]

I just rewatched the Rumple scenes since I was a bit confused.  So Rumple froze Belle to put the real dagger back in her giant-ass purse.  But why put the fake dagger back in his jacket pocket?  Or did I get that backwards?

 

I also found it funny right before the scene with Elsa and Anna's parents on the boat, it says "A long time ago..."  Not even bothering to work out exactly when that was now, eh?   (seriously speaking, I do understand that's their central mystery this season and they wouldn't want to reveal exactly where in everyone's timeline the Frozen flashbacks take place, though I think most of us can guess).

[Aliasscape]

I just rewatched the Rumple scenes since I was a bit confused.  So Rumple froze Belle to put the real dagger back in her giant-ass purse.  But why put the fake dagger back in his jacket pocket?  Or did I get that backwards?

 

I also found it funny right before the scene with Elsa and Anna's parents on the boat, it says "A long time ago..."  Not even bothering to work out exactly when that was now, eh?   (seriously speaking, I do understand that's their central mystery this season and they wouldn't want to reveal exactly where in everyone's timeline the Frozen flashbacks take place, though I think most of us can guess).

That was the first thing the tv.com recap (and one tumblr one) made fun of. The incomprehensible timeline...

 

And: 

 

[Camera One]

The first "A long time ago" was strangest because that's usually used when the time is indeterminate and far in the past.  Yet once we know who Anna meets in the Enchanted Forest, we would actually be able to calculate exactly when that "a long time ago" was.  Which I'm assuming actually wasn't that long ago.  The 5 years later thing wasn't that incomprehensible, just weird.  Like a math teacher asking, "What do you get when you add five years to 'A long time ago'?"

Edited October 4, 2014 by Camera One

[Aliasscape]

Well, here's one thing, in Frozen it's only 3 years between the parents' deaths and Elsa's coronation. They tried to make it sound like Once was supposed to be picking up right where Frozen left off. So is Once saying Anna and Kristoff had a 2 year relationship before the day of their wedding? Which don't get me wrong would be fantastic and reasonable but I don't think the characters behaved much like they've all had 2 years to get closer.

 

Also I agree another ep and we'll see Anna's journey and pin down what should be the timeline. And then we'll get the joy of poking holes in the events they claim took place during that time period that won't fit into anything previous.

[Camera One]

Well, here's one thing, in Frozen it's only 3 years between the parents' deaths and Elsa's coronation. They tried to make it sound like Once was supposed to be picking up right where Frozen left off. So is Once saying Anna and Kristoff had a 2 year relationship before the day of their wedding? Which don't get me wrong would be fantastic and reasonable but I don't think the characters behaved much like they've all had 2 years to get closer.

 

I was just wondering about this, since I couldn't remember exactly the movie's chronology.  I wonder how much/how little thought was put into those 2 extra years.  Please don't tell me they did so little homework they didn't even check the number of years from the animated movie.

 

When Elsa "found" her parents' diary, I was wondering why they didn't at least have the diary hidden under a bunch of stuff.  How could she not have seen it before?

[SilverShadow]

I wonder if the Disney higher-ups pushed them to do that since "You can't marry a man you just met." was kind of a thing in the movie.

[Camera One]

That's a good idea.  Since I didn't know the dates from the movie, I really thought they were picking up right after the Frozen movie from the dialogue in Arendelle.

 

So what was the reaction of the town when Elsa announced the Royal Wedding tomorrow is cancelled because Anna went on a mysterious journey the purpose of which we cannot disclose.

Edited October 4, 2014 by Camera One

[regularlyleaded]

So what was the reaction of the town when Elsa announced the Royal Wedding tomorrow is cancelled because Anna went on a mysterious journey the purpose of which we cannot disclose.

"Welp....does anyone wanna build a snowman?"

 

Yes, I'll show myself out now.

[Aliasscape]

"Welp....does anyone wanna build a snowman?"

 

Yes, I'll show myself out now.

Ha, or go ice skating? Make snow angels? Want to eat some snow cones?

[ParadoxLost]

The first "A long time ago" was strangest because that's usually used when the time is indeterminate and far in the past.

 

Its a celebration that Disney owns Star Wars now.  But seriously, how else could they have acknowledged the three separate time lines.  'A long time ago' is a different way of saying 'Once upon a time'.  Its acknowledging that they are showing a different fairy tale than the Enchanted Forest hodgepodge that has glommed together over the years.

[Shanna Marie]

I thought of another reason Snow might know Emma and Hook were together: She met "Princess Leia" and "Prince Charles." Charles and Leia were in the book, and David interacted a lot with "Charles" and even had a discussion with him about how much he loved "Leia." "Charles" and "Leia" were acting a lot like a couple when they were interacting with David and Snow. Ladybug Snow was buzzing "Charles" while he was comforting "Leia." And since "Charles" and "Leia" were part of David and Snow meeting, I'm sure that in the altered timeline they've discussed those two and wondered what became of them, so Snow likely had heard from David what Charles said about his love for Leia and his concerns about her family. Just before Emma kissed Hook, David and Snow learned who Charles and Leia really were, so that revelation would have been a big clue that there was something pretty serious going on between those two, that it wasn't just casual flirtation. So maybe it wasn't about the kiss, but about the realization that whatever was going on there was maybe deeper than they'd realized before.

 

It's still a weird conversation to have about what Henry thinks because it's not like any of it was an abrupt shift. It was just a move further down an ongoing continuum. Unless maybe it was Snow trying to open the dialogue with Emma, in a very awkward way, because she knew via David that "Charles" had been concerned about what "Leia's" family thought.

[stealinghome]

It's still a weird conversation to have about what Henry thinks because it's not like any of it was an abrupt shift.

I don't know--I agree that any Henry excuse that Emma comes up with is fundamentally just a smokescreen for something else, but I do think it's going to be a bit of a shift for Henry to know that Hook and Emma are dating(ish). He missed all their bonding and whatnot in Neverland, and spent most of 3B oblivious, so literally all he knows is that Emma dumped him on Hook a lot before he got his memories back. imo, it probably should be a bit of a mental adjustment for Henry to go from "chief babysitter" to "Mom's 'special friend'" when he thinks of Hook.

[The Mighty Peanut]

witnesses Grand Pappi curing Anna and giving advice to Elsa's parents (which her parents pretty much do the exact opposite of).

OMG, YES. I still don't know how they got suppress Elsa's power at the cost of her sanity and isolate her from her the family out of that. I know there wouldn't have been a movie without it, but jeez.

Edited October 4, 2014 by The Mighty Peanut

[Shanna Marie]

it probably should be a bit of a mental adjustment for Henry to go from "chief babysitter" to "Mom's 'special friend'" when he thinks of Hook.

But I think he was already at "Mom's special friend" status, to a large degree. Hook has been Emma's closest friend since the return to Storybrooke, and he's also developed an independent relationship with Henry. Henry sent him with the book to go talk to Emma, so he knows they have a certain bond. Would knowing that they've kissed really change the way Henry sees them? It wasn't like Henry had any issue with learning that Regina was dating Robin once he got his memories back, even though he'd just caught them making out in the hallway.

 

When Henry might have to start adjusting to Hook might be if he starts spending the night, moves in, or if the three of them start doing things in "family" mode. They don't seem anywhere near that. That's why it was a weird thing for Mary Margaret to bring up at this time. All that happened was that two people who were already close and attracted enough that everyone else in town had noticed it finally kissed for real. My guess is that Henry figured out something was up at about the time Emma introduced Killian to him in New York (immediately after ditching the guy who'd proposed to her), and then he became more sure of it when he got his memories back and knew it was Hook, who'd been with them in Neverland. Henry was the one looking for a waterfront apartment in Storybrooke while Emma was still in "we're going back to New York" mode, which indicates that he'd already guessed that Hook was going to be a part of their life.

[YaddaYadda]

I don't know--I agree that any Henry excuse that Emma comes up with is fundamentally just a smokescreen for something else, but I do think it's going to be a bit of a shift for Henry to know that Hook and Emma are dating(ish). He missed all their bonding and whatnot in Neverland, and spent most of 3B oblivious, so literally all he knows is that Emma dumped him on Hook a lot before he got his memories back. imo, it probably should be a bit of a mental adjustment for Henry to go from "chief babysitter" to "Mom's 'special friend'" when he thinks of Hook.

 

How is it any different from Henry thinking that Regina dating Robin whom he had never even met was cool though?

[Rumsy4]

But Emma and Hook are not even "together" yet (in the romantic sense). It would be too weird for Emma to tell Henry anything at this point. What would she say? That she kissed Hook? It is quite likely that Mary Margaret or David may have seen Emma and Hook making out outside the Diner the night before and assumed that there was more to it than what it really is from the way they interact in general, and particularly after hearing about their Time Travel adventure. 

[Shanna Marie]

But Emma and Hook are not even "together" yet (in the romantic sense). It would be too weird for Emma to tell Henry anything at this point. What would she say?

That's why I figure this was merely a clumsy case of Mary Margaret being handed the Exposition Fairy's magic wand. She might as well have been stopping, turning to face the audience, and saying, "In case you've just joined us or have forgotten, Emma and Hook kissed last night. That will explain what's about to happen in three, two, one ..." (and then Hook arrives).

[Camera One]

Yes, sadly, they had heavily used Snow for that purpose even as early as 3A.

[Camera One]

They really missed an opportunity for a musical number when Emma and Regina were both on opposite sides of the door... here are possible lyrics...

 

Do you wanna be a human?
Come on let's try today
Come take responsiblity
And say sorry
Oops, I just forgot you're cray

We never want to see you
Ever again
We wish you could leave right now!

 

Do you wanna leave by portal?
It doesn't have to be a portal...

Just say bye...

 

**Next verse could be sung by Snow, Charming, Henry, or anyone else, or Emma again...

 

Do you wanna stop being
A psycho murderer
And someone who blames everyone
Except yourself
Can you please just go away?

No one wants to watch you
Cry again
Spare us another sob

 

Do you wanna leave by Shadow?
And no one likes your lasagna...

Just please scram...

Edited October 5, 2014 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

I watched this episode with my mom last night. I told her that the writers (and characters) think Regina has come such a long way since Season 1 and is well on her way to redemption. My mom said (and this is a direct quote), "The writers are delusional." She was not impressed with murderous, Sidney enslaving Regina, nor book blaming Regina. 

Edited October 12, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[Souris]

I wasn't sure where best to put this. Commentary from 4x01 by JMo, Eddy & Adam.

Edited August 18, 2015 by Souris

[Curio]

They wanted to parallel Anna and Elsa to Emma and Regina.

 

Wow, they really missed the mark then. The only parallel they had was the visual set up of the door conversation scene. Otherwise...no. Just, no.

[YaddaYadda]

I'm thinking they were going to parallel Elsa/Regina as opposed to Emma/Elsa until they were allegedly told to keep Regina away from their cash cow.

[Camera One]

Apparently, the visual is all it takes to "parallel" a relationship. 

And to ensure we "got it", don't forget they had Henry and Regina paralleling Elsa and Anna behind another door an episode later.

 

 

 

When Regina chooses to save Marian from the snow monster, he feels as though “Regina herself was surprised she made the right decision” because most of her life was spent making the wrong decisions.

 

Due to the fakeout of Regina turning evil again, they made it look like Regina had multiple personality disorder.  Apparently, Regina isn't in control of what she thinks or does?  It just happens?

Edited August 18, 2015 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

The Frozen crew are all so perfectly cast. Elizabeth Lail embodies Ana to such a degree it's borderline creepy. Georgina Haig is likable but realistic as Elsa, which is pretty flattering considering how hard it must've been to find the right actress. After watching Crazy Ex-Girlfriend, it's weird seeing Scott Michael Foster play Kristoff. (And, what's even more funny is that Santino Fontana, who is also from Crazy Ex-Girlfriend, was the voice actor for Hans in the Frozen movie.) It's interesting seeing A&E write Disney characters verbatim instead of trying to twist them into something else. I wish we could've seen more "Disney versions" of characters tossed into OUAT's various scenarios instead of some other creation that just so happens to share a famous icon's name. 

Way too much of this episode is devoted to Regina's whining and I hate it. This "strong independent woman" is blaming all her troubles on a book, instead of, you know, making good choices. Remind me again why this show is so empowering beyond giving Snow White a sword she can't kill people with? Mayor Mills wouldn't have put up with this crap.

Edited January 19, 2019 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

I'm kind of sad that they cut the more extended dialogue between Hook and Emma where he was heavily flirting and wanting to continue with the events of the previous night. What made it onscreen really limited the perspective of where Hook was in his thinking of the relationship and how much Emma was really pulling back. Also, Emma backing off pursuing a relationship because of Regina is awful. She needs to live her life and enjoy the good parts because Regina is never going to be happy (she doesn't know what she wants or how to get it and no, the book is not the answer). Also, Emma's life in general tends to lean towards sucking, so finding a positive and happy relationship is definitely something to hang on to.

[Camera One]

On 9/28/2014 at 6:04 PM, stealinghome said:

Also, Regina and the Evil Queen are not separate people. That is ridiculous, writers. 

Spoiler

Now we know the lengths to which the Writers would ultimately go to convince us of this.

[KingOfHearts]

19 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

Also, Emma backing off pursuing a relationship because of Regina is awful. She needs to live her life and enjoy the good parts because Regina is never going to be happy (she doesn't know what she wants or how to get it and no, the book is not the answer).

Emma was definitely acting like her mother here. "I can only be happy if everyone else (especially Regina) is". I think if the show knew how toxic the Emma/Regina dynamic right here was, it could be interesting. At least Hook should've been able to point out how horrible Emma's guilt complex is acting. Instead, Emma's hesitation is used as a catapult for her to help Regina obtain her "happy ending" by some vague means. 

I actually really like the scene where Regina literally sees herself in the mirror and reflects on how she treated Marian. For a moment, she had self-awareness and realized what she was doing. But instead of going, "hmm, maybe I should make up for how I treated Marian", she just pouts because she can't murder people any more. That was such a great opportunity for her redemption arc and it fizzled out so quickly. This whole Love Triangle of Doom thing could've actually been used as a huge growth thing for her character.

Edited January 19, 2019 by KingOfHearts

[profdanglais]

Coming into this premiere riding the high of the S3 finale and the kiss, it was such a letdown. It was the beginning of puppy dog Hook, and although Emma's "be patient" was cute, pushing him away because she felt guilty about Regina was some bullshit. 

However, I did generally like the Frozen stuff and the casting of the characters, particularly Anna. It's unfortunate that a show capable of giving us Hook's coat and Regina's mad Evil Queen wardrobe dropped the ball so badly on Elsa's dress, but the rest of it was solid. 

I think I was more positive about S4 while it was happening because I was so keen for any and all Captain Swan, but on rewatch it is disappointing.

[tennisgurl]

Ah, the Frozen arc. Truly a tale of two shows. On the one hand, I really enjoy the Frozen parts, probably more than I expected to when I first watched the show. The actors are all really well cast, and they do a good job of being the characters from the movie, while translating some of their mannerisms and traits in ways that make more sense for live action (Anna is still very much Anna, but she is a bit more subdued) TV instead of an animated film. Its fun to see what is basically a sequel to Frozen instead of the re-imagining that the show normally does with stories, and its a sequel that works really well with continuing the story of the movie, while adding some new things that would naturally show up after the movie. For example, I really like the banter between Kristoff and Elsa, who never had much interaction in the movie, but would inevitably have a relationship now as future in laws, and I can very much see the characters interacting the way they do here. We even get the trolls and Sven, which is way more magic and fun than we normally get, even with the sad lack of Olaf. But I guess I can see how a talking snowman would be a bit of a challenge for the CGI people.

This is also the story where you can REALLY feel team Disney in the background pulling the strings, and keeping a careful watch on A&E and how they handle their cash cow. I am convinced, given how the first season and this season went,that A&E are good idea guys, and bad show runners. They have good ideas, and they dont have the commitment of vision to actually see of of those ideas through to ccreate a consistent story or character arc. These are guys that need structure, and say what you will about the Disney Empire, they know them some story structure. And while this show could get away with dicking around with stuff with Snow White, properties in the public domain that have had dozens of retelling and their version is decades old now, Frozen is and was their big shiny franchise with its own characters and story, and there was no way in hell Disney would let ANYONE make their beloved characters look bad or be subjected to the A&E treatment. 

On the other hand...the Regina plot. In the words of Heather Chandler, fuck me gently with a chainsaw, how could this have been seen as a good idea?! Oh my God, the insanity of this whole plot is just mind boggling, both morality wise, and by the rules of its own damn universe. This is when the show not only starts to suck (which has already happened, lets be real), but it begins to slowly implode, and tear apart the fabric of not only its own universe, but all of fiction in general. This is probably the plot that team Disney read, and said "we need to get someone down there ASAP before these wackos decide to write Elsa becoming a serial rapist but also the hero or some shit" and sent out people to keep an eye on things. Oh my God, this is Regina's big redemption? She acted like a fourteen year old, whining about the end of a relationship that lasted about two weeks, and acting like she was the victim in all of this. Regina, the woman who MURDERED THIS WOMAN, is the victim here! And everyone has to grovel and apologize and wring their hands over Poor Regina and how sad it is that Poor Regina could be forced to become evil because her boyfriend went off to be with his wife (who, again, she killed originally) and the mean evil book made her become evil and wont let her be happy and SHUUUUUT UPPPPPPP! I mean, if you have a friend who is so unstable and murderous that even a break up from a short term romance will make everyone worried that she might start killing people, its probably not a very good friendship, now is it? And lets not forget, even beyond the fact that this whole plot is "Regina is pissed off that one of her victims escaped and thats annoying to her, dont you feel sad for her?", we also have the delightful facts that Sidney is still locked up in permanent solitary confinement for crimes he committed on behalf of Regina, who has never seen the inside of one of her jail cells, and he is locked up by Regina, and Regina has killed so many people, she legitimately cant remember all of them! And she isnt ashamed by that, just kinda embarrassed by her bad memory! This is a person who is doing the famous "a death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic" line, and we are supposed to agree with her! Her mother being killed in self defense was a tragedy, and we should all feel Very Bad for her, but the thousands or millions that Regina has killed, both directly and indirectly? Dont bother with them, they were all bland losers, just like Regina said! Seriously, the woman is insulting Marian for being murdered by her, and not staying dead! Talk about blaming the victim! And she guilts Emma about it too! At least Emma tells her she isnt sorry for saving Marian, but its in between her having to grovel and bed forgiveness from a woman who she just saw murder Emma's mother. And she didnt kill Marian, and thats this big deal? Oh, good for you, Regina, you managed to not murder an innocent person or let them die for once! Do you want a fucking cookie? Have the Nobel Peace prize people heard about your amazing noble act? GOD! That whole scene at the cafe is some of Regina's worst stuff so far, so truly sounds like a sociopath, but no one else seems to hear it. I am Marian that whole scene, screaming about why everyone is just cool with the Joseph Stalin of the fairy tale world just chilling there with her family and the leaders of her country.

And not even get me started on this fucking book, and the mountains of madness that this is. Its such a blatant ret-con, its almost hilarious. Never before has the book had the power to change fate, it just shows stuff that happened! We saw that in just the last season finale! The book changed when history was changed, Back to the Future style. The book itself didnt do it! Its like Marty deciding that instead of getting his parents back together to save his family from the past being messed up, he instead decided that his damn Polaroid picture that was fading was magic! Not only is it utter nonsense that has never shown up in the course of the series, but it clearly just exists so Regina can whine more (Regina when you meet a woman you unlawfully imprisoned and had killed, your first reaction is "I bet you deserved to die!" you are probably still not a hero!) and they can continue to absolve her from any wrong doing. First they blamed other characters for all of her evil (it was Snow! It was Rumple! It was Cora!) now they want to blame the entire freaking universe. And why does she even think she wont get a happy ending? Who knows if she wont ever meet another guy? Maybe Robin is the only guy stupid enough to go for her, but she cant be sure! Not only do we have to deal with the stupid idea that Regina and The Evil Queen are different people now for some insane reason (why do I hear the sounds of creepy foreshadowing music...), we now get this whole stupid idea that Regina has to change a book to get a happy ending. Its nonsense, and cheapens any possible redemption arc that Regina could have ever had. Instead of reflecting, its just passing the buck, over and over. And, is that the creepy foreshadowing music again when I mentioned a possible author...

Other things happened in this episode too! Emma and Hook were cute, and his cheerful excitement to see what Netflix is with Emma is so endearing, but its stifled by the fact that Emma feels like she cant be happy because of Woegena and how Emma oh so stupidly respects human life, not like super awesome Regina. And I loved his expression when he was saying how there is always some new crisis going on, just as Gumpy comes running in screaming about magic. Like he was thinking "Oh mate...worst timing ever". Also, "RUN! EVIL SNOWMAN!!!!!"

When did Rumple and Belle have time to get engagement photos for the Storeybrooke Gazette? And who is running the paper anyway, now that Sidney is locked up forever without a trail or sentencing?

So we finally know what the EF is actually called: Misthaven! Its actually a nice name, but I think it says something about how much importance this show puts into world building that the name of the whole freaking country half this story takes place in is only given a name in season four, and probably only to end on another "shocking" twist. 

Edited January 19, 2019 by tennisgurl