S24.E21 Tough Love

[Xeliou66]

Episode description 

A tough-love sports agent is found stabbed to death, leaving the squad with a trail of suspects who wanted him gone. Despite a wealth of evidence, Price and Maroun worry that a lack of motive will tank their case. 

[wknt3]

I have a hard time believing that you could ever find 12 people to unanimously convict anyone for stabbing Stephen A. Smith regardless of alleged motive or relationship...

[marc20]

geez, you talk about trying to ruin an episode ten seconds in for me

first time in 24 seasons

[MediaZone4K]

Stephen A!!!! First General Hospital now this.

I actually agreed with Maroun. A 17 year-old was put through extreme and rigorous abuse by his father, and lashed out by killing him. Manslaughter was a fair option. The prosecution was right that the brother could have reached out to more people before resorting to the extreme.

The defense should've gone for an emotional distress defense, unless I misunderstood it and they did.

The brother could have said "I do not recall" when I asked if the killer son ever said he thought the dad was going to kill him.

I liked how the brother set Pryce straight at the end of the episode.

Good episode.

Edited May 9 by MediaZone4K

[Diana Berry]

6 minutes ago, MediaZone4K said:

Stephen A!!!! First General Hospital now this.

I actually agreed with Maroun. A 17 year-old was put through extreme and rigorous abuse by his father, and lashed out by killing him. Manslaughter was a fair option. The prosecution was right that the brother could have reached out to more people before resorting to the extreme.

The defense should've gone for an emotional distress defense, unless I misunderstood it and they did.

The brother could have said "I do not recall" when I asked if the killer son ever said he thought the dad was going to kill him.

I liked how the brother set Pryce straight at the end of the episode.

Good episode.

It was a good episode.  

im not sure if ‘ I do not recall’ would fly with being a hostile witness.  Any attorneys know? He probably  didn’t want to  risk going to jail, too.

I wish Nolan would have gone with a plea in this case. 

 

 

[love2lovebadtv]

1 hour ago, Diana Berry said:

It was a good episode.  

im not sure if ‘ I do not recall’ would fly with being a hostile witness.  Any attorneys know? He probably  didn’t want to  risk going to jail, too.

I wish Nolan would have gone with a plea in this case. 

 

 

b

 

1 hour ago, MediaZone4K said:

Stephen A!!!! First General Hospital now this.

I actually agreed with Maroun. A 17 year-old was put through extreme and rigorous abuse by his father, and lashed out by killing him. Manslaughter was a fair option. The prosecution was right that the brother could have reached out to more people before resorting to the extreme.

The defense should've gone for an emotional distress defense, unless I misunderstood it and they did.

The brother could have said "I do not recall" when I asked if the killer son ever said he thought the dad was going to kill him.

I liked how the brother set Pryce straight at the end of the episode.

Good episode.

I thought the kid could have gotten a lesser charge. 

Shame on Nolan for comparing his adult brother and emotionally detached father. Not the same thing at all and shows clear bias. 

 

The defendant wasn't an adult and his issues with his father weren't about not being lovey dovey. 

[Demian]

2 hours ago, MediaZone4K said:

I liked how the brother set Price straight at the end of the episode.

The one thing I've enjoyed most this season has been watching Price get his priggish, sanctimonious ass handed to him over and over and over again.  They're deliberately writing him as a smug putz who richly deserves every single smackdown he gets, right?

[storyskip]

35 minutes ago, love2lovebadtv said:

b

 

I thought the kid could have gotten a lesser charge. 

Shame on Nolan for comparing his adult brother and emotionally detached father. Not the same thing at all and shows clear bias. 

 

The defendant wasn't an adult and his issues with his father weren't about not being lovey dovey. 

I have a different read on that scene.

Nolan was choosing his words carefully because he was trying to keep it together and be professional.

It’s not professional to tell your boss and your coworker that your father beat the crap out of you and your brothers.

I think there was more to that family dynamic than just “oh, Dad didn’t hug us”.

[Irlandesa]

2 hours ago, wknt3 said:

I have a hard time believing that you could ever find 12 people to unanimously convict anyone for stabbing Stephen A. Smith regardless of alleged motive or relationship...

I think that's the first time they stunt casted a corpse.  People will tune in just to see this.

2 hours ago, Diana Berry said:

It was a good episode.  

im not sure if ‘ I do not recall’ would fly with being a hostile witness.  Any attorneys know? He probably  didn’t want to  risk going to jail, too.

I wish Nolan would have gone with a plea in this case.

I really do think L&O is on a mini run of interesting episodes.  This was good too.  In fact, my only quibble, other than a deal should have been made, is that they didn't explore being failed by AI more.  Clearly the kid suffered from some psychological damage and wasn't served by AI. 

As for "I don't recall," I do think he could get away with it.  How would they prove that it didn't happen?

[Xeliou66]

Pretty good episode - I can’t believe for once I agreed with Maroun, I thought they should’ve offered a manslaughter plea - while the murder wasn’t justified, there were mitigating factors that affected the case, and Nolan’s decision to call the brother as a rebuttal witness had a big chance of blowing up in his face - it wound up helping as it appeared the defendant lied about telling his brother his dad was abusive, but it was a huge risk that wasn’t justified IMO - I thought offering a manslaughter plea would’ve been both the ethical and legally pragmatic thing to do. And I liked how the brother set Nolan straight at the end, Nolan’s situation was very different and unless we know otherwise Nolan’s dad wasn’t as mean as the victim here, he withheld affection but this dad did more. But the murder wasn’t justified, I thought the son should’ve talked to other people at his school, his coach, teachers, counselors etc, and gotten them involved if he felt his dad was abusive, and he premeditated the attack and manufactured an alibi. He deserved to go to prison but I thought a manslaughter plea would’ve been the right thing given the circumstances. I thought Nolan was being a bit too harsh, I’m surprised I agreed with Maroun’s point of view more. I liked Baxter’s scenes as usual. 

I was kind of surprised more wasn’t made of the AI chat bot therapist, that was an interesting plot point, I agree with Nick that it was pretty terrifying. It was an interesting discussion about it and I bet more laws and rules are made as AI evolves in the future.

Shaw/Riley were strong as always, I liked their investigation and how they sorted through the suspects and got to the truth. They are a very enjoyable to watch detective pairing.

So a pretty good episode but for maybe the first time I agreed with Maroun’s point of view. 

[MediaZone4K]

6 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

Pretty good episode - I can’t believe for once I agreed with Maroun, I thought they should’ve offered a manslaughter plea - while the murder wasn’t justified, there were mitigating factors that affected the case, and Nolan’s decision to call the brother as a rebuttal witness had a big chance of blowing up in his face - it wound up helping as it appeared the defendant lied about telling his brother his dad was abusive, but it was a huge risk that wasn’t justified IMO - I thought offering a manslaughter plea would’ve been both the ethical and legally pragmatic thing to do. And I liked how the brother set Nolan straight at the end, Nolan’s situation was very different and unless we know otherwise Nolan’s dad wasn’t as mean as the victim here, he withheld affection but this dad did more. But the murder wasn’t justified, I thought the son should’ve talked to other people at his school, his coach, teachers, counselors etc, and gotten them involved if he felt his dad was abusive, and he premeditated the attack and manufactured an alibi. He deserved to go to prison but I thought a manslaughter plea would’ve been the right thing given the circumstances. I thought Nolan was being a bit too harsh, I’m surprised I agreed with Maroun’s point of view more. I liked Baxter’s scenes as usual. 

I was kind of surprised more wasn’t made of the AI chat bot therapist, that was an interesting plot point, I agree with Nick that it was pretty terrifying. It was an interesting discussion about it and I bet more laws and rules are made as AI evolves in the future.

Shaw/Riley were strong as always, I liked their investigation and how they sorted through the suspects and got to the truth. They are a very enjoyable to watch detective pairing.

So a pretty good episode but for maybe the first time I agreed with Maroun’s point of view. 

I think the show has finally gotten it right with Detectives Shaw and Riley. DA Baxter is good. Maura Tierney is growing on me but she's replaceable, ADAs Pryce and Maroun can go.

[Xeliou66]

1 minute ago, MediaZone4K said:

I think the show has finally gotten it right with Detectives Shaw and Riley. DA Baxter is good. Maura Tierney is growing on me but she's replaceable, ADAs Pryce and Maroun can go.

Shaw/Riley are great I agree, and I like Baxter too, a worthy replacement for McCoy. Strongly disliked Brady at first but she’s grown on me a lot in the second half of the season. Maroun can go even though I agreed with her tonight, Price is hit or miss, overall I like him decently enough but he gets on my nerves at times. If someone goes my first choice is definitely Maroun, then Price. 

[mommalib]

I cannot stand Price, he's so smug and cold. I'm glad the older brother left him with the same look on his face that Shaw left him with earlier this season. Also Stephen A did pretty well. 

[Raja]

2 hours ago, MediaZone4K said:

I actually agreed with Maroun.

It occurred to me with Lieutenant Brady again doing the in station suspect interview that the ADA also had the role of watching that process along with the denial of bail hearing.

I guess we have gone to far to believe that New York can go after the chatbot  like they have often gone after the parents. With the in chambers fight I was thinking the entire thing about the chats was that it was a general opinion, like Google gives you the answer to the questions most people ask, not your specific one. 

I get the state's doctor has won an Oscar and might be retired. Perhaps they should bring in another.

But unless that was some cheap game I don't believe TARU would actually get the records unencrypted. That was the fight not the suppression of the lie alibi statement which was the base of the episode

[marc20]

6 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

I think that's the first time they stunt casted a corpse.  People will tune in just to see this.

I really do think L&O is on a mini run of interesting episodes.  This was good too.  In fact, my only quibble, other than a deal should have been made, is that they didn't explore being failed by AI more.  Clearly the kid suffered from some psychological damage and wasn't served by AI. 

As for "I don't recall," I do think he could get away with it.  How would they prove that it didn't happen?

"I think that's the first time they stunt casted a corpse.  People will tune in just to see this."

I can't remember who, where, and when but remember hearing that actors, even famous ones, wanted to do this

[jalady]

Way to destroy an episode.  Stephen A Smith 🤮🤮🤮

Also ridiculous that they were searching so hard for a motive at the beginning of the prosecution’s case.  The boy was faking a knee injury to get out of practice, for fuck’s sake!!  Um, I think I smell a motive folks. 😂😂

[dubbel zout]

13 hours ago, MediaZone4K said:

I liked how the brother set Pryce straight at the end of the episode.

That was gratifying, for sure.

11 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I thought offering a manslaughter plea would’ve been both the ethical and legally pragmatic thing to do.

I'm surprised the defense didn't ask for a deal. That used to happen all the time on the OG L&O. I don't think the battered-child defense was all that strong, TBH. And deciding to use it halfway through the trial felt like a last resort. Why not posit that from the start?

1 hour ago, jalady said:

Also ridiculous that they were searching so hard for a motive at the beginning of the prosecution’s case.  The boy was faking a knee injury to get out of practice, for fuck’s sake!!  Um, I think I smell a motive folks.

I know! What was so hard to understand about that?

Next week: A link to Maroun's sister's case. Ugh. I DON'T CARE.

[Raja]

31 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

Next week: A link to Maroun's sister's case. Ugh. I DON'T CARE.

The promo images certainly looked like a possible swan song

[MerBearHou]

11 hours ago, Raja said:

I get the state's doctor has won an Oscar and might be retired. Perhaps they should bring in another.

This was a perfect time for Dr. Olivet or Dr. Skoda scenes and opinions on the AI therapy bot and the effect on the defendant -- I would have been fascinated to hear that.  That role is sorely missed on some of these cases.

[blackwing]

Maroun brought her lunch from home to save $12 so she could pay her uncle's rent this month.  Sounds like money problems!  You know how Maroun might be able to earn more money?  If she and S.a.i.n.t. Olivia opened up their own firm dedicated to helping downtrodden and abused women.  Olivia can do all the investigative work, and Maroun can defend them when they kill their husbands!  Money will roll in when these two saints put their heads together!

Please please please show producers, make this happen.  Maroun seems very much despised or disliked, the show has been saddled with her for four long seasons.  Let her free her wings and fly.  Fly fly away, as far as her bleeding heart can take her!

Nolan doesn't need a replacement actor.  Just fill the second chair in the courtroom with a non-speaking extra.

[Zaffy]

Not a bad one. I want Nolan gone. As a character. Although I have to admit the actor's voice is penetrating my brain cells. argh!

[marny]

6 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I'm surprised the defense didn't ask for a deal. That used to happen all the time on the OG L&O. I don't think the battered-child defense was all that strong, TBH. And deciding to use it halfway through the trial felt like a last resort. Why not posit that from the start?

To be fair, the trial was probably 3 days after arraignment so the defense attorney didn’t have much time to prepare. 
 

After Price’s speech about his cold father and how he and his brothers never killed him, I was waiting for Baxter or Maroun to say, “Yeah but didn’t your brother wind up an addict who died of an overdose?” Like, trauma can affect different people differently, dummy. And what’s interesting is I can imagine that if the younger son had killed himself instead of his dad, they would have wanted to prosecute the dad for driving him to it. Anyway. 

[Zaffy]

10 minutes ago, marny said:

And what’s interesting is I can imagine that if the younger son had killed himself instead of his dad, they would have wanted to prosecute the dad for driving him to it. Anyway. 

So true!
I think the show is suffering from trying to create constant debates and moral dilemmas with a combination of our heroes' personal dramas and views. And it gets lost in the "translation". Almost each episode must have some personal connection with the show's regular characters that makes them to appear  biased.
Maybe that happens in real life as well, but I dunno, Baxter should had told Nolan to go for a plea, especially since it was more than obvious that the latter was biased.

Edited May 9 by Zaffy

[dubbel zout]

3 minutes ago, Zaffy said:

Baxter should had told Nolan to go for a plea

I thought that's what Baxter did say, but Nolan was against it, and Baxter said fine, go with your gut.

[Sake614]

1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

I thought that's what Baxter did say, but Nolan was against it, and Baxter said fine, go with your gut.

Maroun suggested the plea. Baxter sort of raised an eyebrow but when Nolan was against it, Baxter said ‘fine, go with your gut.’

[ML89]

On 5/9/2025 at 5:33 PM, marny said:

After Price’s speech about his cold father and how he and his brothers never killed him, I was waiting for Baxter or Maroun to say, “Yeah but didn’t your brother wind up an addict who died of an overdose?”

Puts the whole thing with his dad and the other brother earlier this year into a way different light, too. 
 

On 5/8/2025 at 11:11 PM, Demian said:

The one thing I've enjoyed most this season has been watching Price get his priggish, sanctimonious ass handed to him over and over and over again.  They're deliberately writing him as a smug putz who richly deserves every single smackdown he gets, right?

Speaking of things seen in a different light…that would explain all the rulings against him too.  
 

Poor Shaw & Riley - I think they’re a good team but they need remedial training in how to not have to foot chase every suspect.

Re: Maroun and the season ending trailer of doom…is it the Serena exit or the Logan one? (not sure what the ADA equivalent of Staten Island is).

[Raja]

1 minute ago, ML89 said:

Re: Maroun and the season ending trailer of doom…is it the Serena exit or the Logan one? (not sure what the ADA equivalent of Staten Island is).

[Joimiaroxeu]

The murder victim's ID said he was 52. Stephen A. Smith got a few years shaved off his actual age, ha ha.

The older brother seemed sus to me when Riley and Shaw were questioning him about his father's murder. I think either he did it or he knew more than he was letting on. (ETA: turned out to be the latter.)

Shaw deftly climbed up that club owner's ass with the facts about the $800 liquor law fine applying per customer. Wow.

Riley trying to outrun a motorbike. 🙄 Luckily for him the crowded city streets slowed the suspect down.

I know the actress who portrays her is Israeli but what culture is Maroun from? That was kind of a pointed comment she made about her extended family taking turns paying her uncle's rent. Sounded like it's not an easy expense for her despite her likely earning at least a low six-figure salary.

An AI-generated chat bot. Ehh, definitely a collector of potential blackmail material. Plus AI is still less reliable than a basic Google search.

One of the reasons child abuse becomes multigenerational is because some parents assume that if they survived being abused then their kids can too. Not that abuse should become an excuse for murder, but survivors shouldn't be so quick to dismiss others' lack of strength or tolerance. IMO it's another form of blaming the victim. Looking at you, Nolan.

So what headlines was this episode ripped from? Neither LeBron James nor Deion Sanders has been murdered by one their kids yet.

 

[Raja]

30 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

I know the actress who portrays her is Israeli but what culture is Maroun from? That was kind of a pointed comment she made about her extended family taking turns paying her uncle's rent. Sounded like it's not an easy expense for her despite her likely earning at least a low six-figure salary.

Lebanon, I don't think they ever gave her a faith group and/or if that conflict is why the family left.

[dubbel zout]

14 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Riley trying to outrun a motorbike. 🙄 Luckily for him the crowded city streets slowed the suspect down.

I rolled my eyes as well. The writers have to be trolling us with all of these foot chases. Why do Riley and Shaw announce themselves as cops at least 20 feet before they reach the suspect? That always gives the perp a head start. 

[Raja]

3 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I rolled my eyes as well. The writers have to be trolling us with all of these foot chases. Why do Riley and Shaw announce themselves as cops at least 20 feet before they reach the suspect? That always gives the perp a head start. 

I give them the grace this time, the slammed the big SUV cop car to the curb  and the bad guy sees it and acts like this ain't right and starts his bike.  At which point yelling police was an attempt to use command presence to get him to stop

[txhorns79]

On 5/8/2025 at 11:37 PM, Irlandesa said:

As for "I don't recall," I do think he could get away with it.  How would they prove that it didn't happen?

Your father ends up murdered by your brother, your brother claims he told about his fear of your dad and your response is "I don't recall" if your brother ever said anything about fearing your father?  While it may not be to the point where perjury could be proven, I think a jury would have real trouble with that answer. 

22 hours ago, Raja said:

Re: Maroun and the season ending trailer of doom…is it the Serena exit or the Logan one? (not sure what the ADA equivalent of Staten Island is).

It would be absurd, but I would at least laugh if Maroun's exit somehow involved her saying: "Is this because I'm a lesbian?"

On 5/9/2025 at 5:26 PM, Zaffy said:

I want Nolan gone. As a character. Although I have to admit the actor's voice is penetrating my brain cells. argh!

When he was talking to Baxter and Maroun in Baxter's office, I swear I thought he was going to start crying.  I don't know what it is about the actor's particular style, but there are so many episodes where it seems like he is about to burst into tears when discussing a case.

[CrystalBlue]

6 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

When he was talking to Baxter and Maroun in Baxter's office, I swear I thought he was going to start crying.  I don't know what it is about the actor's particular style, but there are so many episodes where it seems like he is about to burst into tears when discussing a case.

That's because Nolan is saddled with Sam as his partner!

But, now he has the goods on her.  Her family will be investigated for running an illegal sports betting operation.

[blackwing]

On 5/10/2025 at 9:23 PM, ML89 said:

Re: Maroun and the season ending trailer of doom…is it the Serena exit or the Logan one? (not sure what the ADA equivalent of Staten Island is).

11 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

It would be absurd, but I would at least laugh if Maroun's exit somehow involved her saying: "Is this because I'm a lesbian?"

An homage to that classic line but with an updated twist... "is this because I'm a Lebanese?"

[Joimiaroxeu]

23 minutes ago, blackwing said:

An homage to that classic line but with an updated twist... "is this because I'm a Lebanese?"

I would pay a handful of cash money if L&O did this. It would be such a gift to the longtime viewers who got to see that WTF ending back when it happened.

[txhorns79]

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

An homage to that classic line but with an updated twist... "is this because I'm a Lebanese?"

Only if followed by someone saying: "I don't know any personally, but isn't Danny Thomas one?" 

[NoReally]

On 5/10/2025 at 10:23 PM, ML89 said:

Poor Shaw & Riley - I think they’re a good team but they need remedial training in how to not have to foot chase every suspect.

They could start by not shouting the suspect's name when they're still 100 yards away.

[dkb]

I thought this episode was interesting. I kinda agree with Price here, it was premeditated and thought out with the deliberate buying of a knife and the lying about the fact he told his brother about the abuse.

If he had stabbed him at home after one of the horrible "training sessions" then yes but not the calculated way the dad was actually killed. Also did not agree with what the brother was saying at the end, his brother is not weak cause he doesn't have the same physical/mental abilities that he does for football - that's like classic abusive mentality. 

I thought this episode was going to turn out to be the AI chat box creator being put on trial for the murder. 

Also it is genuinely scary how much trust children/young adults put in AI - literacy skills are in hell right now.

Edited May 14 by dkb