S18.E11: She Said/He Fled

[Elizzikra]

Take an über next time, Allen. Definitely not cool.

[atomic]

Yeah, there is no excuse for Allen driving drunk. So disappointing to see this side of him.

[atomic]

There it is. David admitted he doesn't have savings, so this assumption that he's been accumulating savings while living in his parents' basement can finally be put to rest.

Yikes, Allen!!! Stop justifying your horrible decision to drink and drive. He looks so bad right now not admitting to exercising awful judgment about this.

Edited January 15 by atomic

[Crashcourse]

Was Allen really drunk though?  Didn't she say he wasn't inebriated?

[atomic]

Thomas in his suit looks way more swaggy than Camille in her Old Navy tank top right now.

[Crashcourse]

Madison is not easy to look at.

[atomic]

Allen is so fed up with Madison that he put that butterfly shirt back on out of spite. 🤣

[Elizzikra]

42 minutes ago, Crashcourse said:

Was Allen really drunk though?  Didn't she say he wasn't inebriated?

I think they agreed that he wasn’t “drunk” but they disagreed over whether he had more than he should have if he was going to drive. I think a lot of people drive when they have had enough for it to be a DUI when they are pulled over and they just get lucky and aren’t stopped. I think it’s common to underestimate the effect of alcohol on driving abilities.

[Crashcourse]

3 minutes ago, Elizzikra said:

I think they agreed that he wasn’t “drunk” but they disagreed over whether he had more than he should have if he was going to drive. I think a lot of people drive when they have had enough for it to be a DUI when they are pulled over and they just get lucky and aren’t stopped. I think it’s common to underestimate the effect of alcohol on driving abilities.

I still didn't hear any evidence that he was too impaired to drive.  It sounds like her mom was maybe an alcoholic and she was projecting those fears on to Allen.  

[Crashcourse]

I didn't know pilates (fart machine) was still a thing.

[atomic]

So grating listening to Karla talk like a midwestern Kourtney Kardashian.

[Elizzikra]

48 minutes ago, Crashcourse said:

I still didn't hear any evidence that he was too impaired to drive.  It sounds like her mom was maybe an alcoholic and she was projecting those fears on to Allen.  

Agree to disagree then. I think that most people don't think they are too impaired to drive until they blow a BAC over the limit and get a DUI. And even then, they think they were "just fine." Or they injure or kill someone.

Allen might have been "fine." He may have been below the legal limit even. We won't ever know. I, personally, would err on the side of caution because the stakes are too high. 

Different topic: I cannot stand Ikechi. Every week, I dislike him more. He is such an ass. He is totally insecure and then blames his feeling "small" on something Emem does or says. Emem doesn't say or do anything to Ikechi to make him feel "small." I think she sees through him and isn't impressed nearly as impressed with Ikechi as he is with himself. He doesn't like that. Plus, totally surface, what is up with his wide-eyed, unblinking stares followed by rapid blinking? He constantly looks pissed off. He also refuses eye contact when he is irritated with someone, especially women. 

Ick, indeed.

Edited January 15 by Elizzikra

[Elizzikra]

Also worth noting, I liked tonight's guest on After Party and I don't usually like the random podcasters/influencers/whoevers that come in and comment on the couples. 

I usually love Michelle's After Party looks but tonight, pretty much only the neck up. Didn't love the dress but the hair and makeup were on point. Also loved her necklace.

[atomic]

Allen (along with Madison) seemed under the influence in that confrontation at the apartment to me. I got the impression that things got contentious between them again while drinking, which made him want to sleep away from the apartment. I've always liked Allen so much, but starting to wonder if Madison has a point about alcohol bringing out a dark side in him.

[Lisa418722]

I don't understand why the "experts" are so determined that Ikechi and Emen move back in together. They are toxic to each other and need to end this farce of a marriage now. 

OK, I do know why the experts want it, but they need to put the participants' safety first.  

[DrewPaul2010]

12 hours ago, Crashcourse said:

I still didn't hear any evidence that he was too impaired to drive.  It sounds like her mom was maybe an alcoholic and she was projecting those fears on to Allen.  

For a woman who has been aloof about her marriage it seemed odd to me she is pulling the 'I'm your wife' routine. Is she really that concerned or just wants an excuse? As far as I know they haven't even consummated the marriage as yet. I don't get the impression she has any deep feelings for Allen.

I'm happy to see Allan is taking stock of the fact that according to her, he alone needs to make changes to make himself acceptable to her. No adjustment on her part. Madison is a beautiful woman...but in my opinion she's not pretty. That's probably a personal distinction.

[kristen111]

12 hours ago, Crashcourse said:

Madison is not easy to look at.

A little mannish.  At her age she’s not thinking of having a home and family.  More like drinking with her buddies on the weekend and having a good time.  Definately not marriage material at all.  The thought of her at home with a sick baby is unrealistic.  She doesn’t seem the type.  You never know tho.

[kristen111]

Didn’t the experts see during the picking that Karla is a Whackadoodle?

 

 

[Retired at last]

Well, that was 3 hours I will never get back! 3 hours!!!! And I even stayed awake and saw the whole thing. None of the interesting things they have shown in "previews" were presented. The interactions were incredibly boring and the same. Every week, Michelle seems to get it that she has issues and then she is still the same. I did notice how different she is from the wedding video. She was outgoing and happy then. She is just miserable now.

Here's a thought - let these people work individually with Dr. Pepper BEFORE they are matched since they are all pretty broken and seem to be shocked when Pepper shows them what has happened in their past that is screwing up this relationship. The problem is that they are so broken and unlikable that I really don't care about them (Michelle and Madison, specifically). The next three weeks is not sufficient time for these people to heal themselves enough to be able to work on a real relationship.

On Afterparty, I usually hate it when they have a special guest from some fan podcast, but I really liked Joe. He was articulate, empathetic, kind, and offered great insights to Michelle, Allen, Ikechi, and Emem. I would love to see him again. I guess his wife will be the guest next week. I was happy to have him speak for us, the viewers and fans.

I am happy to see that Allen is finally starting to get it that he is not with a woman who cares about him as a partner. He agrees that he is in the friend zone, so now he needs to move on.

I kind of liked seeing Juan try to mentor Karla, who is totally clueless. She is not a business person and needs a man with a bankroll to let her play with her toys. If she was such a great Pilates instructor, why didn't SHE teach the session with Juan?

Maybe NEXT week, we will get to something interesting? Or not.

ETA - I am not a big fan of Emem, but what is she doing, taking that jerk back and subjecting herself to more mistreatment? I DID like how Pia and Cal made them realize their differences in that he is "artsy" and FEELS things and she is "science" and has to KNOW things, which is why she needs answers to her questions. They very succinctly pinpointed the differences. 1) then why were they matched without this insight, and 2)do either of them care enough to try to change?

Edited Wednesday at 03:39 PM by Retired at last

[Jeanne222]

12 hours ago, Elizzikra said:

Agree to disagree then. I think that most people don't think they are too impaired to drive until they blow a BAC over the limit and get a DUI. And even then, they think they were "just fine." Or they injure or kill someone.

Allen might have been "fine." He may have been below the legal limit even. We won't ever know. I, personally, would err on the side of caution because the stakes are too high. 

Different topic: I cannot stand Ikechi. Every week, I dislike him more. He is such an ass. He is totally insecure and then blames his feeling "small" on something Emem does or says. Emem doesn't say or do anything to Ikechi to make him feel "small." I think she sees through him and isn't impressed nearly as impressed with Ikechi as he is with himself. He doesn't like that. Plus, totally surface, what is up with his wide-eyed, unblinking stares followed by rapid blinking? He constantly looks pissed off. He also refuses eye contact when he is irritated with someone, especially women. 

Ick, indeed.

The After Party hostess really came after Ikeche and I thought for sure he'd run.  They must have glued him to that seat!  😅

11 hours ago, atomic said:

Allen (along with Madison) seemed under the influence in that confrontation at the apartment to me. I got the impression that things got contentious between them again while drinking, which made him want to sleep away from the apartment. I've always liked Allen so much, but starting to wonder if Madison has a point about alcohol bringing out a dark side in him.

I think she's a big party drinker and party gal.  I think they both have to slow their roll!

I would think with her mothers history she would not drink!

[Jeanne222]

I have to say David is kind of warming up to me.  He seems kind and mellow and just going with Madison's flow.

With that said I think he's a cheater and can't be trusted.

He did look mighty fine in some of those outfits.

I too was surprised he's not the big saver as he presented.  He's a big spender and living in parents basement allows him more fun money!

 

 

[kristen111]

Stupid question … don’t yell.  Does Madison want a husband, house and family, or  does she just want to drink shots with her friends and throw and kick a ball around all weekend?  Seems to be the latter.

 

 

 

[Elizzikra]

59 minutes ago, kristen111 said:

Stupid question … don’t yell.  Does Madison want a husband, house and family, or  does she just want to drink shots with her friends and throw and kick a ball around all weekend?  Seems to be the latter.

 

 

 

I think she thinks she wants both and hasn’t figured out if she can have that or not. 

[kristen111]

3 minutes ago, Elizzikra said:

I think she thinks she wants both and hasn’t figured out if she can have that or not. 

True, but not fair to him .  He deserves better.  She’s not ready.

. 

[seacliffsal]

In all my years of watching this show and commenting on it, I have never stated anything similar to what I'm going to say now: I actually think the 'experts' gave some good advice this episode.  I know, right?  I can't believe it either!  However (see, you knew there would be some kind of disclaimer) I think they should have just ended some of these marriages during the episode.

I think Madison would look so much better without the extensions.  Her real hair/length is very obvious so it just makes the extensions stand out even more to me.  I think she was surprised that Allen isn't buying her act any more (I.e. he's the one who has to change everything and even then she won't give him the time of day).

David may not have any savings, but I would love to hear if Michelle does.  So, she has a stylist (who is also her 'friend')?  That costs money.  She may not actually be much better off than David (spends on her apartment, clothes, etc.). 

[Retired at last]

I agree that some of the advice from the experts was good, however, they should never have pushed Ick-man to try to work things out with Emem. And after they said it would never work if they didn't live together, rather than see if Ick made a move, Emem jumped right in and asked him to move back in with her - again, being what she knows he thinks of as aggressive. I still don't get what she wants with him, other than she made a commitment and she won't let it go until the end.

Madison is clearly a party girl and either wants a partying husband, or she is not ready to be married. She reminds me of that Virginia who used to stay out all night at her friend's house until Cal read her the riot act. She was quite a bit younger than her husband, Eric the pilot, too.

Still not really caring for Camille, either. I want to see HER make a compromise for him, instead of just changing Tom. He is a wiling participant, but it just looks to be one-way.

I am actually enjoying Juan and Karla the most because they are harmless and she is a flake. I would love to see her notes she took when he was trying to help her with a business plan. I wonder where she will go when this is over since she has no home.

[candall]

I really disliked the experts' attempt to split the blame down the middle between Ick and Em.  To me, he's just a big passive-aggressive, non-verbal baby-man gaslighter who's been jerking her around like she's on The Scrambler ride at the carnival.

[After7Only]

41 minutes ago, Retired at last said:

Still not really caring for Camille, either. I want to see HER make a compromise for him, instead of just changing Tom. He is a wiling participant, but it just looks to be one-way.

I liked that Tom basically told her exactly that in a caring way.   He talked about how he's changed and been vulnerable for her, and he wanted her to be more vulnerable towards him.  Tom seems like a really good guy.  

I would like to see Madison slow down her partying ways if she really wants to to show Allen she is trying to make the marriage work.   She already acknowledged that drinking brings out a darker side to Allen.   Yet she continues to encourage him to socially drink.   Seems like a better approach would get to know him while he's at his best.   .  

[DrewPaul2010]

3 hours ago, Elizzikra said:

I think she thinks she wants both and hasn’t figured out if she can have that or not. 

She's in her 30's I bet she is going to be shocked by how soon 40's comes around. I know I was.

4 hours ago, Jeanne222 said:

I have to say David is kind of warming up to me.  He seems kind and mellow and just going with Madison's flow.

With that said I think he's a cheater and can't be trusted.

It seems like he is the only one putting in effort and still believing this might work. I think its a lost cause and he might as well check his phone for birdies calling.

[Crashcourse]

Emem knows that Ick doesn't want to have anything to do with her, but she jumped at him moving in with her again to look like she's trying to make things work when really, she just wants to make him feel uncomfortable.  Sure, he's acted like an ass, but she's clearly playing him. 

Madison wants to expose Allen's "darker side" with him drinking to make herself look like a caring wife.  I'd still like to see just how much he's been drinking instead of just taking her word for it.  

Juan looked like he was having fun listening to Karla's business plans.  I don't think he took her seriously at all.  

[seacliffsal]

Madison's background story seemed a bit self-serving to me in that she used it to justify why Allen's drinking and driving made her uncomfortable but she doesn't address how much she likes to drink and that she even went out to drink with her friends the day they returned from the honeymoon.  If drinking is a 'trigger' then she needs to also look at herself.  Is the difference for her that Allen drove after going to the bar?  I think I expect more consistency about how drinking impacts her when she has told us, and demonstrated to us, how much she likes to go out and drink.

I feel bad for her that her mother drank and they had issues because of it, but is she using it to justify that she doesn't really like Allen?

[Crashcourse]

18 hours ago, Elizzikra said:

Agree to disagree then. I think that most people don't think they are too impaired to drive until they blow a BAC over the limit and get a DUI. And even then, they think they were "just fine." Or they injure or kill someone.

Allen might have been "fine." He may have been below the legal limit even. We won't ever know. I, personally, would err on the side of caution because the stakes are too high. 

Yes, definitely agree to disagree because, thus far, I haven't seen any evidence that he's some drunk driver like she's trying to portray him as.  Now, if we see some evidence of his careless drinking, then I'll change my opinion.   

[kristen111]

NM.

[Elizzikra]

Quote

David may not have any savings, but I would love to hear if Michelle does.  So, she has a stylist (who is also her 'friend')?  That costs money.  She may not actually be much better off than David (spends on her apartment, clothes, etc.). 

I don't know if Michelle has savings or not, but for most people, housing is their single biggest expense. If David doesn't pay for housing and doesn't have savings, he's doing more frivolous spending than she is.

Quote

Is the difference for her that Allen drove after going to the bar?

I think that it is. I don't think that she has an issue with him drinking (or her drinking, or anyone drinking other than her mother, whom it was heavily implied is/was an alcoholic). I think she was upset that he chose to drive after drinking. That would upset me too, whether it was my spouse, a friend or the guy sitting next to me in the bar. Impaired drivers are dangerous to everyone around them.

Quote

I really disliked the experts' attempt to split the blame down the middle between Ick and Em.  To me, he's just a big passive-aggressive, non-verbal baby-man gaslighter who's been jerking her around like she's on The Scrambler ride at the carnival.

Agreed. Yes, they have different communication styles. Yes, he's "artistic" and she's "scientific." But their problems are because he is a rude, insecure asshole who is only comfortable around people who (unfathomably) find him impressive. Hard pass for me. 

Quote

I feel bad for her that her mother drank and they had issues because of it, but is she using it to justify that she doesn't really like Allen?

Maybe? Which is not cool. I think that Madison has sort of tried, in that she recognizes that Alan is a good guy and a good catch and just on paper, he should be a good match for her. But she isn't physically attracted to him and she doesn't see it developing, no matter how much of a good, successful guy he is. She knows this isn't going to have to work and she is going to have to come up with some reasons why and she doesn't want to have to say "I just don't want to even kiss you, much less have sex with you."

[TeapotWakeen]

50 minutes ago, Elizzikra said:

If David doesn't pay for housing and doesn't have savings, he's doing more frivolous spending than she is.

David pays rent. And he said he just got on with a new job, plus his family just closed their bar/restaurant. He may not have taken a paycheck for awhile, he may have been paying off debt racked up while they figured out what to do with the family business, etc.  His new job could be a lot better paying, so he'll replenish his savings. In today's economy, a lack of savings is not a major surprise, unfortunately. Prices of EVERYTHING have skyrocketed.

[Hip-to-be-Square]

    Allen is selfish and careless to drink and drive. I don't care if he had one beer or multiple beers- it's unacceptable to drink and drive.  He showed a combative and entitled attitude when Madison questioned him, and he even stated that he "knows his limits 🥴" "it was just 15 minutes" and "he doesn't like it when people tell him what to do."  He had zero regrets about potentially endangering his life and the lives of others. This isn't his first rodeo and he's probably fine with drinking and driving again.  Not cool at all.  

[JenE4]

What the frig is this “meat sushi” (too thick to be carpaccio, not diced to be tartar) on a bronze bull with milk? Fat remnants?! Dripping from its udders?!? I’m not even going to point out that a cow can’t have horns and udders. Yikes! I don’t even care about who’s fighting about what at this point and what advice the pros are giving. The meat sushi lactating bull has taken me out! Oh, I just noticed the table. They’re at a hotpot. Okay, they’ll cook the meat, but this vessel is still not anatomically correct. Who washes these bulls between customers? I’m picturing some poor guy sloshing water and bubbles all over the place trying to wash these statues in a big sink.

Speaking of odd restaurant/retail decisions. Some boutiques provide champagne. This place Michelle dragged David to provides Trulys in a coozy. That might be an indicator this establishment might be more of his price range.

Keeping on topic of commenting only on the public spaces… I need to get back on my Pilates reformer. I’m putting this in writing to hold myself accountable to use it tomorrow.

 

[Elizzikra]

Quote

David pays rent. 

I thought the whole reason he lived with his parents was to save rent. Does he pay reduced rent? I thought he paid nothing but I don't know why I thought that.

Quote

What the frig is this “meat sushi” (too thick to be carpaccio, not diced to be tartar) on a bronze bull with milk?

I can't explain the serving bull but I think that it was some sort of hibachi place? I don't think the meat was meant to be eaten raw. When they sat down, it looked like there was a grill of some sort in the center of the table. Then they received sushi, which confused me. Then the giant platter of meat. That was a TON of food for two people. 

Oh - never mind. I just re-read your post and I see you got there, though the bull is still a bewildering choice for a serving piece.

Quote

Who washes these bulls between customers? I’m picturing some poor guy sloshing water and bubbles all over the place trying to wash these statues in a big sink.

Maybe they just take them out back and hose them down?

Edited Thursday at 02:52 AM by Elizzikra

[Jeanne222]

I was kind of waiting for Juan to start calling Karla 'grasshopper' as he explained the business world to her.

She understands him, just as she told her sister, but he isn't even close to understanding what she does or what makes her click!

Karla had an apartment and wisely gave it up.  No worries or bills there.

If this works out she won't need it and if it doesn't she'll just find another one!

I bet she's got some savings and then there's Show money and who knows maybe she does YouTube and makes some bucks!

Plus she's got that New York trip planned for the hair fixing.

She's a light among all this darkness!

[shok]

4 hours ago, Jeanne222 said:

She's a light among all this darkness!

I took a left turn and quite liked her in this episode. I'm completely opposite to her (much more businesslike like Juan) but I can also see Karla succeeding despite being such a ditz if Juan is able to help her with the more germane stuff. There's lots of room in this world for people who are airy/fairy and march to a different drummer.

Tom certainly looked good this week coming straight from work. I really like him and if he can break down those walls around Camille, they seem like they could be a good pair.

The others I don't have much hope for. David is still a slob and he just doesn't fit into Michelle's world and I don't blame her for not being attracted to him although she's kind and is trying to understand him. Out of the nice outfits she picked out for him, he chose a plain old denim jacket that he could have bought at Walmart. Didn't even buy a sharp shirt to go with it. Face it, he just has no pizzazz whereas Michelle is very classy. Bad bad match by the experts.

I give Allen and Madison no chance. They've been civil to each other and I think with other matches that they were even the slightest bit attracted to that they may have worked a little harder at building a relationship but these two are just not meant for each other.

Neither are Ike and Emem. Let them go their separate ways.

[Mr. Miner]

I think Juan is fake AF.

[Madding crowd]

I agree-I don’t like Juan. I think he is cold and condescending. Karla is flaky but he talks to her like she is a child. I was surprised to see Emem take Ikechi back-why does she want to keep trying with him? He never seems light hearted or fun, it would be all serious all the time. 
 

I really like Thomas and hope Camille can grow to appreciate him as he is. I don’t like Michelle or Madison and they both feel superior to their spouses. 

[Retired at last]

I agree that Juan is just humoring Karla. He doesn't want to be anywhere around her, once this is over. But, at least he gets to show his business acumen and expertise. She has NO IDEA what he does, but he does, "a lot of things and he types on his laptop like Thriller." When he tells her that she can do or be anything in the world, he is just playing her. Although, I have to give him credit for not sleeping with her. All along he has said that his goal was to just have fun, and now he is. I am sure that he was recruited for the show, since he seems to have no time to be in a relationship. I have seen speculation that it is Juan who gets cozy with Madison, so that might be interesting. It MIGHT be, if they would show us already!!!

[Jeanne222]

37 minutes ago, Retired at last said:

I agree that Juan is just humoring Karla. He doesn't want to be anywhere around her, once this is over. But, at least he gets to show his business acumen and expertise. She has NO IDEA what he does, but he does, "a lot of things and he types on his laptop like Thriller." When he tells her that she can do or be anything in the world, he is just playing her. Although, I have to give him credit for not sleeping with her. All along he has said that his goal was to just have fun, and now he is. I am sure that he was recruited for the show, since he seems to have no time to be in a relationship. I have seen speculation that it is Juan who gets cozy with Madison, so that might be interesting. It MIGHT be, if they would show us already!!!

Sooo I'm just the opposite and see Karla playing with Juan!

That scene when he took her to his garage, work. What does he do?  That was a real mess!

[Starlight925]

Juan's dinner "date" with Karla was more like a recruitment for a Junior Achievement project.

Instead of taking David to a clothing store, Michelle should have taken him to a hair salon.

Thomas gets pierced earrings so that Camille will approve of his "swag", but am I the only one who noticed that his right ear is pierced too far back?  OCD me was bugged.

Emem went back to Ikechi because producers probably shoved her contract in her face.

Allen shouldn't have driven, ever after 1 beer.  That's what Uber is for.  Could have Uber'd back in the morning to pick up his car.

Having said that, Madison looks like some animal I can't figure out.  Weird facial proportions, plus I don't like her, so there's that.

Edited Thursday at 05:21 PM by Starlight925

[JenE4]

1 hour ago, Jeanne222 said:

Sooo I'm just the opposite and see Karla playing with Juan!

That scene when he took her to his garage, work. What does he do?  That was a real mess!

What doesn’t Juan do? I feel like every time he talks he has a different “business.” First he told us he was in sales, so he travels a lot. Then he told us he designed an app (a meet-up/LinkedIn type app for business travelers waiting in airports??). Then the workshop was a custom carpentry business—and he actually BUILDS the cabinets (as opposed to doing sales or other types of business management that I would have assumed). He’s also a model…and maybe also did some personal training?? There might have been other jobs I missed. Basically, he does a little of everything as an “entrepreneur,” which is why he was matched with Karla who also has several jobs. But apparently instead of being similar, he does NOT bestow her with the title of entrepreneur, and this is their bone of contention because she just falls into whatever the day brings her instead of leaning into “hustle culture.” Juan very much reminds me of one of the contestants on The Ultimatum, which is another dating show on Netflix. Like Juan, every word out of her mouth was “entrepreneur” and all she cared about was building a business. I guess there is a subset of people for which just working for The Man and bringing home a steady paycheck (even if highly compensated) isn’t good enough and your worth is tied to whether or not you can call yourself an entrepreneur. Like Juan, the woman on the other show was also forcing her fiance to be an entrepreneur and open a car wash or something instead of having a desk job. And after a whole season on entrepreneur this and entrepreneur that, talking about nothing but work, and making it seem like she probably has some very important consulting business or something. It turned out this lady made and sold pasties. Yes, nipple covers. I nearly fell off my couch. Juan and she would be a match made in heaven a LinkedIn chat group.

[Elizzikra]

Quote

It turned out this lady made and sold pasties. Yes, nipple covers.

If there's money in it, why not???

[Alexander Pope]

Maybe both Juan and Carla should work for Vandelay industries as importer/exporters!

[JenE4]

14 minutes ago, Elizzikra said:

If there's money in it, why not???

Listen, no shame. If you just heard this woman talking, though, it was so pretentious and acted like she had the business acumen that had Fortune 100 companies calling her day and night for her insights and expertise. It was just a real shock when she finally revealed at the reunion what her company actually was. If you think Juan talks about being an entrepreneur too much, man, he had nothing on this lady!

[Vanderboom]

On 1/15/2025 at 2:39 PM, Retired at last said:

I am actually enjoying Juan and Karla the most because they are harmless and she is a flake. I would love to see her notes she took when he was trying to help her with a business plan. I wonder where she will go when this is over since she has no home.

Karla's business plan:

 

Why is the show trying to make Ikechi and Emem happen as a couple? He's a perpetual child. Why should she settle for someone toxic just for the sake of the show? It's not even entertaining in a train-wreck sort of way.

Edited Thursday at 09:00 PM by Vanderboom