S04.E04: The Stunt Man

[chitowngirl]

Charles, Oliver and Mabel delve into the peculiar universe of stunt people. They encounter a suspect with an incredibly familiar face.

Airs on Hulu beginning September 17th.

Please keep on topic with things that happen in this episode. Spoiler tag things that happen in future episodes.

[paigow]

Would have been a big ratings boost if this was called The Fall Guy

[Affogato]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Stunt_Man
 

The Stunt Man is a 1980 American satirical psychologicalanti-war action comedy filmstarring Peter O'Toole, Steve Railsback and Barbara Hershey, and directed by Richard Rush.[2]The film was adapted by Lawrence B. Marcus and Rush from the 1970 novel of the same name by Paul Brodeur. It tells the story of a young fugitive who hides as a stunt double on the set of a World War I movie whose charismatic director will do seemingly anything for the sake of his art. The line between illusion and reality is blurred as scenes from the inner movie cut seamlessly to "real life" and vice versa. There are examples of "movie magic", where a scene of wartime carnage is revealed as just stunt men and props, and where a shot of a crying woman becomes, with scenery, props and soundtrack, a portrait of a grieving widow at a Nazi rally. The protagonist begins to doubt everything he sees and hears, and at the end is faced with real danger when a stunt seems to go wrong.

———

i remember this as a good movie. I can see potential for crossover with the show storyline. 

Edited September 5 by Affogato

[sjankis630]

That was a pretty strange movie when I watched all those years ago on TV. It may have been the fact that I am not a huge fan of Peter O'toole in serious roles but that is one I will have to watch again.

[peeayebee]

Loved Peter O'Toole in that, but then I've loved him in everything.

I doubt there will be any connection other than that Sazz was a stunt person. There wasn't much of a connection betw the title of the last ep (Gates of Heaven) and the episode, was there? The cremated ashes, mourning the dead. That was it.

[Affogato]

15 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

Loved Peter O'Toole in that, but then I've loved him in everything.

I doubt there will be any connection other than that Sazz was a stunt person. There wasn't much of a connection betw the title of the last ep (Gates of Heaven) and the episode, was there? The cremated ashes, mourning the dead. That was it.

Maybe someone hiding as someone else? Something to do woth the apartment?

[Yeah No]

12 hours ago, peeayebee said:

I doubt there will be any connection other than that Sazz was a stunt person. There wasn't much of a connection betw the title of the last ep (Gates of Heaven) and the episode, was there? The cremated ashes, mourning the dead. That was it.

I have never seen the movie but just from the description the connection could be that Sazz's greatest "stunt" was faking her own death, but something went wrong and she actually died.  I mean, think about the description where is says "the illusion of men dying and then finding out they were just stunt men and props?"

Or maybe she did fake her own death and survived. Or the would-be "murderer" wanted to "fake" her death and she's really still alive, or that person goofed and actually killed her when they didn't intend to.

[peeayebee]

My view is that the movie in each ep title doesn't have a plot connection to the ep, but is more of a general allusion to the theme or basic subject matter. It seemed to be that way with the first two eps. We'll see about this and subsequent ones.

[shapeshifter]

On 9/6/2024 at 1:21 AM, Yeah No said:

I have never seen the movie but just from the description the connection could be that Sazz's greatest "stunt" was faking her own death, but something went wrong and she actually died.  I mean, think about the description where is says "the illusion of men dying and then finding out they were just stunt men and props?"

Or maybe she did fake her own death and survived. Or the would-be "murderer" wanted to "fake" her death and she's really still alive, or that person goofed and actually killed her when they didn't intend to.

Yes, and, if so, was Sazz planning to sublease the Dudenhoff apartment in her after[stunt]life?

 

 I want all of Mabel’s coats:

[thuganomics85]

Ben Glenroy might be dead and buried, but he lives on via his stunt double!  Who ends up being Paul Rudd again, but this time with a comedically horrible Irish accent!  Was not predicting that appearance at all.  I wonder if he'll pop back up at some point?

The trio visiting a bar for stunt people was a fun bit and a nice little love letter for stunt people in general.  A common theme this year with this episode and The Fall Guy this summer (if only the Academy would wake up and create a category for them at the Oscars...)  Not sure if we gotten any massive revelations, but Charles did remember that Sazz was planning on creating her own stunt school once she retired and now wonders if she was referring to him when talking about a relationship that was "all give" for her and no take.  I suspect that last part is a red herring, and she was actually referring to someone completely different.

So, it sounds like the Westies are actually working some kind of rent scheme in the apartments and the mysterious professor doesn't exist?  Was confused by all of that but the big takeaway is that it looks like none of them were involved with the actual killing.  But there is definitely more to this since the apartment was used for the sniper's nest.  And they were all very cagey about that Helga voice.  And I still think something is up with that scribbled out face in the group photo that Vince had.

Poor Howard!  Gets an opportunity to audition to play himself but loses out to Josh Gad!  The real thing is no match for Olaf!

Glad Mabel was finally able to get Oliver to quit with this fake Ronnie character to spy on Loretta, but if I was a betting man, I suspect she will still somehow find out.  The man is letting his insecurities get the better of him again.

Episode ends with the gang finding the rundown building Sazz was hoping to use for her school and being greeted by Bev/Molly Shannon with a gun!  Still seems too early to reveal the actual killer but I'm guessing maybe Sazz found out something funky about this movie pitch and it put her at odds with the whole thing.  Maybe that was what she was trying to tell Charles before her passing?

 

[phalange]

The rent control scheme makes sense, but I still think there’s more to the Westies than what they told Mabel. I assume Helga is who was scratched out in the picture, but I feel like she’s not who they say she is. 

Oh hey, Paul Rudd! He was hilarious here. Haven’t the killers always narrated an episode? If so, this makes him a possible suspect. Not sure what the motive would be though. 

Now how does Bev know the location of Sazz’s trampoline park? I don’t think she’s the killer, if only because that would be too similar to last season. 

[cardigirl]

Okay ... What?!!!!??? 

 

Mind blown!  

 

Loved this episode! Will be back later for more commenting!

[shapeshifter]

4 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

…the Westies are actually working some kind of rent scheme in the apartments and the mysterious professor doesn't exist?…

Ooo. I didn't consider that Dudenoff wasn't real, but it makes sense.

4 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

…But there is definitely more to this since the apartment was used for the sniper's nest.…

Maybe the sniper was aiming at Sazz because the sniper wanted the apartment. 
I recall at least one L&O episode in which someone killed for a rent-controlled NYC apartment.

4 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

…And they were all very cagey about that Helga voice.  And I still think something is up with that scribbled out face in the group photo that Vince had.

4 hours ago, phalange said:

Oh hey, Paul Rudd! He was hilarious here. Haven’t the killers always narrated an episode? If so, this makes him a possible suspect. Not sure what the motive would be though. 

Could the Helga voice and the scribbled out photo person be Paul Rudd's character (who wants the $200/mo. apartment)?

 

[cardigirl]

6 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

So, it sounds like the Westies are actually working some kind of rent scheme in the apartments and the mysterious professor doesn't exist?  

Who is sending them ham from Portugal if the professor doesn't exist?  I didn't get that he/she wasn't real, just living like royalty in Portugal. 

Ben Glenroy pops up, hmmmm.  Well, his stunt double at least. So glad to see Paul Rudd again.

Reluctantly, I may be beginning to believe that Sazz is alive and in hiding (or being held captive) somewhere, mostly because of the stunt bar refusing to hold a funeral because there was no body. (Until Charles filled in as a "double" for Sazz.) And now there is this Paradise, NJ trampoline park. Great place to disappear to.

Loved all of Charles's dream sequences showing Sazz in various states of injury. He really was clueless to the toll taken on her.

Edited September 17 by cardigirl

[paigow]

Bev is likely holding a prop gun she found in the shed...

[Quilt Fairy]

Did anyone else notice that the car that they piled out of in the last scene had very obvious California plates?  Or is that part of the back story on Oliver's car?

This season is feeling like a dud to me so far. 

[Yeah No]

5 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Ooo. I didn't consider that Dudenoff wasn't real, but it makes sense.

Maybe he was real, is now dead and they're faking that he's still alive. And someone has to have been paying the rent on those apartments. Maybe Bev Melon is faking being Dudenoff and paying the rent?

Like some already posted above, I too think the rent controlled apartment angle has something to do with this and maybe the sniper wanted the apartment and thought Sazz was a threat to it. If Sazz still intended to operate some kind of strange stunt training ground in NJ she'd need to live nearby and would likely also want to be near Charles.

It was always a joke in Manhattan that people "would kill" for a rent controlled apartment. A good friend of mine has one in the East '60s and even though she left NYC a few times she never got rid of it but rented it out illegally. She somehow got away with it. She finally got married last year and moved to Florida but she still won't let go of that studio apartment! People are that way about them! There are fewer and fewer of them left so today it would be like hitting the lottery to have one and the people that still do have had them forever.

So it appears I was right last week that Bev Melon has some kind of involvement in this too and it also looks like my theory that Sazz is still alive might also be true too. Maybe Bev is the one hiding her. I don't necessarily think she has anything to do with any murder here but the fact that she would wield a gun (or a prop gun) says something about her.

One reason I'm leaning that way is that everything this season has been so tongue-in-cheek and too lighthearted to make me believe that someone as beloved as Sazz is actually dead. People even acted more grave and upset over Bunny's death!

Maybe the person that was really murdered was Dudenoff. Somebody wanted his apartment. Sazz may have been the next in line to get his and became a target herself. The Westies may know more than they're letting on about that.

1 hour ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Did anyone else notice that the car that they piled out of in the last scene had very obvious California plates?  Or is that part of the back story on Oliver's car?

Yes, I did and I wondered what that was all about too. Did we miss something?

 

Edited September 17 by Yeah No
Added clarification.

[paigow]

All the stunt people believe Sazz is dead... they seem like a tough crowd to deceive 

[Night Cheese]

Oliver's car ("Aphrodite") has always had CA plates, which always puzzled me. Oliver lives and works in NY, so why pay the exorbitant CA registration fees when he doesn't live there or drive Aphrodite there? Also the show films in NY, so I don't think we can chalk it up to being a production goof.

[paigow]

9 minutes ago, Night Cheese said:

Oliver's car ("Aphrodite") has always had CA plates,

Did his ex-wife bring the car from LA? Oliver got the car in the divorce and she continues to pay the fees? 

[Night Cheese]

18 minutes ago, paigow said:

Did his ex-wife bring the car from LA? Oliver got the car in the divorce and she continues to pay the fees? 

That's plausible. Did she move back to LA? They would need a residential address to be able to register the car. Although I can imagine CA govt not caring about any of that as long as they get paid. Maybe it's not registered in CA anymore and Oliver just hasn't changed the plates. It seems it only gets driven once every few years anyway.

[Yeah No]

40 minutes ago, paigow said:

All the stunt people believe Sazz is dead... they seem like a tough crowd to deceive 

True, but if any of them knew about it they would likely keep their mouths shut out of fear for their own safety and hers if they know that a more sinister entity is afoot.

And thinking over Bev Melon, she could be in that building sniffing around for clues just like our trio and not otherwise related to this because she is now a super fan and would do that sort of thing. But I kind of think she has more than that to do with this, although not necessarily sinister.

[peeayebee]

I wonder if there's any significance to hearing Dudenoff referred to as "M. Dudenoff." I always figure there's some importance to hearing a character's full name or, in this case, at least an initial.

I didn't get any implication that Dudenoff is fake. I also didn't get the impression that the Westies were lying about Helga. They said she was Rudy's crazy ex-girlfriend. (Good show!) And paranoid. If that was her on the ham radio (last ep) being threatening, that tracks.

What a great surprise to see Paul Rudd. Earlier when we heard the narration, I thought the Irish accent sounded off. Well, that explains it. 

Loved how he cannonballed into the dumpster. Oh, and the Stuntman's Margarita really cracked me up.

I assumed when Dr Maggie said that Sazz was in a difficult relationship but didn't know how to get out, that this was referring to Jan. But maybe Sazz was in a relationship with Dr Maggie.

I have to admit that I was wrong about Oliver nearly proposing to Loretta. When that scene happened, I thought that Loretta thought that was what was coming, but I didn't think that was Oliver's intention.

I always enjoy jokes about people not getting technology. "Brightness! Down!"

I'm curious about the audition flyer slipped under Dudenoff's door. I really didn't expect there to be an actual audition. Did one of the Westies slip it under the door so they could get inside? Or did one of the movie people (Bev or the Brother Sisters?) do that? Did we know they were going to be in NY?

I love the idea of Josh Gads playing Howard. Good casting! I wonder if we'll see him.

Howard's Animal Jobs podcast idea isn't too bad.

I have no idea what Bev was doing in the old building. No guesses from me.

[Yeah No]

I just want to clarify something about rent controlled apartments in NYC for anyone not familiar with them. There is a long history about it I won't go into, but for our purposes here I'll say this - Once a person with a lease on one dies it most likely will no longer be rent controlled for any new person who rents it (I have known of exceptions like dependent family). Those apartments were under an old program that is no longer in effect for a long time, but people still leasing under that program are allowed to keep the low rent with low increases under the old rules. That's why someone (the Westies especially) would want to fake that Dudenoff is still alive even if he isn't. Because if the management of the building found out that he's dead they'd either be evicted for fraud if that were possible or have to pay market rent for the apartments, or at least whatever reduced rent they might qualify for under another program. Whatever that was it would be far higher than $200 a month!

Edited September 17 by Yeah No

[Lugal]

1 hour ago, Night Cheese said:

Oliver's car ("Aphrodite") has always had CA plates, which always puzzled me. Oliver lives and works in NY, so why pay the exorbitant CA registration fees when he doesn't live there or drive Aphrodite there? Also the show films in NY, so I don't think we can chalk it up to being a production goof.

I remember in the first season they commented that Oliver pays for parking for the car and never drives it.  It even broke down the first time he did (which is why they needed a lift from the horticulture podcast guys).  It just made sense for Oliver that he never bothered to switch the plates and registration.

[Yeah No]

8 minutes ago, Lugal said:

I remember in the first season they commented that Oliver pays for parking for the car and never drives it.  It even broke down the first time he did (which is why they needed a lift from the horticulture podcast guys).  It just made sense for Oliver that he never bothered to switch the plates and registration.

Does that mean you think he is driving an unregistered vehicle or that he's registered in NY but just didn't bother to change the plates?

[Lugal]

I assumed it was unregistered since it seems most of the time the car seems to sit in the Arconia parking garage anyway.

[cardigirl]

2 hours ago, Yeah No said:

So it appears I was right last week that Bev Melon has some kind of involvement in this too and it also looks like my theory that Sazz is still alive might also be true too. Maybe Bev is the one hiding her. I don't necessarily think she has anything to do with any murder here but the fact that she would wield a gun (or a prop gun) says something about her.

One reason I'm leaning that way is that everything this season has been so tongue-in-cheek and too lighthearted to make me believe that someone as beloved as Sazz is actually dead. People even acted more grave and upset over Bunny's death!

We don't know that you were right, yet!

I prefer to think that Bev Melon is not involved with murder. I remember in the first season when Oliver and Mabel were taken hostage by Theo. While there were nefarious goings on with Theo and Teddy, they weren't the murderers.

And I think Mabel's and Charles' reaction to Sazz's death has been pretty grave. I think Oliver is probably saddened too, but he's so self-absorbed, he doesn't express it much. So, while the theme of "no body, not dead" was mentioned, I tend to think the writers are playing with us. 

(Happy to admit I'm wrong at the end of the season, IF I am. 😉)

 

 

Edited September 17 by cardigirl

[peeayebee]

36 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

I just want to clarify something about rent controlled apartments in NYC for anyone not familiar with them. There is a long history about it I won't go into, but for our purposes here I'll say this - Once a person with a lease on one dies it most likely will no longer be rent controlled for any new person who rents it (I have known of exceptions like dependent family). Those apartments were under an old program that is no longer in effect for a long time, but people still leasing under that program are allowed to keep the low rent with low increases under the old rules. That's why someone (the Westies especially) would want to fake that Dudenoff is still alive even if he isn't. Because if the management of the building found out that he's dead they'd either be evicted for fraud if that were possible or have to pay market rent for the apartments, or at least whatever reduced rent they might qualify for under another program. Whatever that was it would be far higher than $200 a month!

What do you think about the ham from Portugal? The Westies are getting it from someone. It could be that they don't know he's dead, if he's dead. If so, then who is impersonating him? 

Also, now that I think about it, I'm a little lost as to what's been going on in Dudenoff's apartment. Since he left, it's been sitting there unoccupied? Why suddenly did the Westies decided to grab it away from Mabel?

[mledawn]

Maybe I was too tired for this episode but Paul Rudd wasn't really funny to me. The bad Irish accent probably contributed to it. I might have to rewatch after some sugar or something...

I did laugh at Oliver and his iPad, and Mabel's comments on the brightness. I empathise completely - my mother loves her bright bright iPad and of course takes photos with it. Hilariously accurate by the show.

[Snazzy Daisy]

Did Sazz fake her death? 👀

Quote

“Stunt people always fall. But the trick is…you get up and make sure you don’t become dust.”

With the running joke about how many murder can occur in an apartment building, this fake murder could be a setup by the Hollywood studio. Sazz used this chance to get out of the industry and getting paid at the same time.

What if Sazz knew Bev and was in some kind of relationship with her? Bev knows about The Sazz Pataki Impact Academy. It takes Charles a long time to figure out about the “paradise”.

The sensitive matter that Sazz wanted to discuss with Charles but never did could be about her retirement.

I don’t think Charles is the “difficult relationship” that Sazz was getting away from. Unlike other stuntmen, Sazz valued her “face”.

An audition for low-level characters is conducted by a studio executive and the film directors themselves? Nahh, it’s not believable. Plus, “no experience necessary” is also suspicious.

I don’t totally believe the illegal subletting story by the Westies. It’s too convenient. 🤔

This is my least favorite episode in S04. There’s too much Glen Stubbins. This cameo contributes nothing to the plot. UGH.

 

[ofmd]

This is definitely not my season.

And I don't even want to get started about the "Irish" Rudd...

ETA: Someone explain the rent scheme to me, the math ain't mathing?

Edited September 17 by ofmd

[Chit Chat]

2 hours ago, peeayebee said:

Howard's Animal Jobs podcast idea isn't too bad.

I think it's a fun idea!  Let's see what Hammy Faye thinks, oink, oink!  🐷 

I liked the episode.  There's so much going on that I'll probably have to watch it again just to absorb it all and rethink my own theories!  

If the Westie's story is true, I'm glad that part of the mystery is solved. On to the next chapter of the story!  If Mabel can get that apartment for $200/month, then I guess she'll have gotten it for a bag of beans! 

[Yeah No]

2 hours ago, cardigirl said:

We don't know that you were right, yet!

I prefer to think that Bev Melon is not involved with murder. I remember in the first season when Oliver and Mabel were taken hostage by Theo. While there were nefarious goings on with Theo and Teddy, they weren't the murderers.

I didn't say she was involved with murder, just involved somehow. I theorized that either she staged a fake murder so she and her actors could see our trio try to solve one. Then I said that the fact that she turns up in that shed in NJ makes me think we're going in the direction of her being some kind of deranged super fan that wants to make a movie about them and is either trying to solve a real murder along with our trio (like I said this week) or had something to do with a fake "murder" to orchestrate our trio into solving it. Even if both of those are not what she's up to, she's obviously up to something to do with the plot here, which is what I've suspected all along. 

2 hours ago, peeayebee said:

What do you think about the ham from Portugal? The Westies are getting it from someone. It could be that they don't know he's dead, if he's dead. If so, then who is impersonating him? 

Also, now that I think about it, I'm a little lost as to what's been going on in Dudenoff's apartment. Since he left, it's been sitting there unoccupied? Why suddenly did the Westies decided to grab it away from Mabel?

Good questions. I can't figure it out either

[Yeah No]

1 hour ago, ofmd said:

This is definitely not my season.

And I don't even want to get started about the "Irish" Rudd...

ETA: Someone explain the rent scheme to me, the math ain't mathing?

Here's a little explanation about rent controlled apartments in NYC for background and the difference between them and rent stabilized apartments.

https://www.openigloo.com/blogs/whats-the-difference-between-rent-stabilized-and-rent-controlled-apartments

In order for an apartment to still be rent controlled a person has had to live there continuously since 1971 and have been renting it as a rent controlled apartment. So therefore there are very few left (only around 16,000 according to the article) because when a tenant in one dies or moves out it automatically becomes rent stabilized, which means the rent goes up and also they can raise the rent by higher percentages than in a rent controlled apartment every time the lease expires. The rules about how much you can raise rents in rent controlled apartments are stricter and that's why they are usually so dirt cheap and under market price. 

Anyway, I have to watch it over again because I'm not sure I got it right, but my understanding (if the Westies are telling the truth) is that Dudenoff rented or is still renting all those apartments under rent control guidelines and because he didn't need all of them and lived overseas he was willing to let the Westies live there for a nominal amount per month (illegally of course). But does $200 per month cover his rent on each of them? I kind of doubt that it would but who knows? I've heard that the rent in those apartments can be low, but that sounds a little TOO low to me. Unless he's willing to let them have it at a loss, which also sounds a little hard to believe, but why would they make something so far fetched up?  It doesn't make sense. Maybe he's letting them have it at a loss because they are keeping their mouths shut about something he did. I guess we'll find out.

Edited September 17 by Yeah No

[Chit Chat]

47 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

I theorized that either she staged a fake murder so she and her actors could see our trio try to solve one.

Your posts came to mind when I saw this episode.  I thought, Yeah No is on to something!!  

[paigow]

Professor Dudenoff???

• Is he a legit professor getting a pension from a US university? On paper, he is a NYC resident but money transfers go to Portugal. IRS would be interested.
• He is a criminal mastermind nicknamed Professor.

[MerBearHou]

Last season was pretty magical, I thought.  This season is a dud so far (as others have said).  I am not enjoying any of the Hollywood characters — like zero of them.  There’s no cohesion, just a lot of paths they start down and then one fizzles out and another path is introduced.  I enjoyed Paul Rudd last season, but I do not need to see him again this season, acting way too unhinged as a damaged Irish stunt double.  Then Oliver pining for Loretta who we’ve barely seen this season — it’s just a drag.  I so enjoy the characters in the Arconia, even the unpleasant ones; the Westies are also not doing it for me — they’re weird just for weird’s sake.  

Edited September 18 by MerBearHou

[peeayebee]

4 hours ago, Yeah No said:

Good questions. I can't figure it out either

Well, you're no help.

 

3 hours ago, paigow said:

Professor Dudenoff???

• Is he a legit professor getting a pension from a US university? On paper, he is a NYC resident but money transfers go to Portugal. IRS would be interested.
• He is a criminal mastermind nicknamed Professor.

Makes me think of The Professor from that Spanish show Money Heist. He was the mastermind.

Edited September 18 by peeayebee

[Yeah No]

Some thoughts on a second viewing:

That so-called stuntman bar was not in Hell's Kitchen in Manhattan. It looked like Brooklyn especially because of the Rheingold beer sign. Their first brewery was in Brooklyn.

9 hours ago, peeayebee said:

I'm curious about the audition flyer slipped under Dudenoff's door. I really didn't expect there to be an actual audition. Did one of the Westies slip it under the door so they could get inside? Or did one of the movie people (Bev or the Brother Sisters?) do that? Did we know they were going to be in NY?

Someone wanted Howard out of the apartment which is why the flyer was put under the door. They knew he'd go for it. Who would be behind that other than Bev? I think that was a fake audition designed to get him out of the apartment so the Westies could get back in there. There was no part available. I find the whole thing suspicious. Then when Mabel walked in and found the Westies in there they acted like they had no idea she was squatting there beforehand. Yeah, right. 😏 The Westies had to know Mabel and Howard were there because it's too coincidental that they just happened to show up the moment no one's there.

i'm sure the Westies are lying about Helga too. She's not just a "crazy ex girlfriend". (I loved that show BTW!!)

9 hours ago, peeayebee said:

I assumed when Dr Maggie said that Sazz was in a difficult relationship but didn't know how to get out, that this was referring to Jan. But maybe Sazz was in a relationship with Dr Maggie.

YES, I like the way you think! Maybe Sazz was breaking up with Dr. Maggie and the story she told Charles is what Sazz said to her. And actually that would make her a suspect!

Also, re: Dudenoff, there was no indication that he is fake or dead, but we can't really trust the Westies that he's just retired in Portugal either. I also am not convinced that he's a he even though they call him one!

 

56 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

Well, you're no help.

LOL! I actually think what I just wrote addresses some of that. I think the Westies have had access to that apartment and that's why the pig was in there alone - they were taking care of it. I'm sure they have a key and they were going into that cubby or safe behind the bed to get at something.

[roseha]

I did enjoy this episode way more than the last one partly because I really did not like all the time given to the actors playing “themselves” - which by the way really has to rule them out as any kind of suspects thus making their appearances even less necessary.  This one was a lot more interesting whether you buy the Westies’ story about Dudenoff and rent control or not.    It remains to be seen I guess how important Helga will turn out to be.  The scenes with the stunt people were mainly entertaining to me though I agree about Paul Rudds bad accent.

The fact that Bev Melon already knew about Sazz’ Paradise before Charles even remembered about it suggests to me that it is actually possible that Sazz is alive after all. How else would she have found out about it?  I suppose there are other possibilities but I wonder.

[dwmarch]

15 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

I also am not convinced that he's a he even though they call him one!

I agree, I think the show is trying to pack the name with subtle and unsubtle gender assumptions. People tend to think of Professors as being predominantly male. The name starts with M, which is the shorthand way of abbreviating Male. Dudenoff. Since we've already got the Brothers Sisters, it wouldn't surprise me if Dudenoff isn't actually a dude at all.

[Yeah No]

16 minutes ago, dwmarch said:

I agree, I think the show is trying to pack the name with subtle and unsubtle gender assumptions. People tend to think of Professors as being predominantly male. The name starts with M, which is the shorthand way of abbreviating Male. Dudenoff. Since we've already got the Brothers Sisters, it wouldn't surprise me if Dudenoff isn't actually a dude at all.

Yes, I actually made that same association about them throwing us off by putting "dude" in the name, LOL. It's subtle but it makes you think it's a man.

[Affogato]

Charles thought he was ‘sazz’s person’ and now he realizes …well, that he really didn’t know her al all. For Charles, this is really sad. He honestly doesn’t have many friends. 
This also seems to be true of Oliver and Mabel. It is one reason why they are believable. Lonely people found each other. charles is not the difficult relationship  i think maybe Bev  is, and it is a business relationship.
 

i still expect Jan to show up again.   

Now that we have met the stunt bar crowd, I am wondering if the empty apartment was used for stunt people who needed a place for one reason or another and if Maggie isn’t Dudenoff.  Movies are made from all over the world, so ham would not be a problem. However, why would maggie be supporting this group of people. They aren’t probably family, or stunt people. Why would Maggie not live there and let people stay in her guest room?  There is something going on with the apartment  yes, I think the Westies were luring Howard out  of the apartment. The rent is low at $200 a month under any circumstances. 

It would seem like the show to have the pig be Dudenoff’s legal heir. How would that work?  Dudenoff could have been associated with the investment ham business in Portugal? i also like Howards podcast. However he seems to have dumped the dog Gravey for the pig. 
 

 

Edited September 18 by Affogato

[Affogato]

9 hours ago, roseha said:

 

The fact that Bev Melon already knew about Sazz’ Paradise before Charles even remembered about it suggests to me that it is actually possible that Sazz is alive after all. How else would she have found out about it?  I suppose there are other possibilities but I wonder.

I wonder if Bev was funding Paradise. An investor. And she wanted something from Sazz about the movie that Sazz thought was questionable. And was going to tell charles. 
 

maybe a fake murder. 
 

it is also possible scott Bakula is the difficult relationship, maybe he didn’t want Sazz to retire. 

Edited September 18 by Affogato

[shapeshifter]

So many great theories!
Who knew I'd be able to utilize in retirement my cultivated ability to gainfully skim scholarly articles in order to curate sources for students and professors? LOL

IMDb's Full Cast And Crew page for the episode has some interesting credits for the real stunt performers:

• Chris Barnes...stunt coordinator

  Gavin Barnes...stunt performer

  Spencer Barnes...stunt performer

  Becca GT...stunt performer

  Kevin Matthew Mcdonald...stunt performer

  Kevin Michael Murphy...stunt performer

Three with the same last name; 2 with the same first name and middle and last initials.🤔

 

 

[peeayebee]

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

charles is not the difficult relationship  i think maybe Bev  is, and it is a business relationship.

Hmm. Good idea. It's also possible that Bev and Sazz had an intimate relationship, though I like the idea that we are supposed to assume it was intimate whereas it was actually professional. That also answers how Bev knew about Paradise (though again it could have been thru a personal relationship).

This all made me wonder if Bev could have killed Sazz. Although she apparently lives in LA, she certainly could have been in NY at that time. But right now she seems too obvious a suspect.

I had been thinking that no one knew Sazz would be in Charles apt, therefore Charles had to be the intended target. However, we don't know if Sazz had, for instance, spoken to someone on the phone and said she was just stopping by Charles' place to get the wine. But then the killer would have to have hurried to set up the sniper's nest.

TLDR: I don't know.

Re Paul Rudd's bad Irish accent: I figure that's intentional. That he keeps saying "feckin'" is a cliche and meant to be funny. I think the show knows the accent is bad, and that's part of the comedy.

[chaifan]

First, where do I get Mabel's incredible invisible portable wardrobe of endless fabulous coats?  Seriously, she has a different (fabulous) coat every episode.  She's squatting at Dudenoff's and hanging at Oliver's.  Where is she keeping all these coats?  (And the rest of her wardrobe/stuff?)

To everyone for whom this season isn't working...  I don't know what you're talking about.  I love this season!  Yes, it's very different from prior seasons, but I really like it better than Season 3 so far. 

I was confused with the narration in the beginning.  At first I thought it was Oliver doing an Irish accent for some reason, then no, that wasn't it... but I couldn't think of any Irish characters, so I was very confused.  Rudd's accent slipped when he chased the trio out of the stunt man's bar, and I thought for a second that the accent was fake for the character, too.  But nope, it came back.  I'm glad Paul Rudd is back, and this is just a fun quirky way for it to happen.

I loved Charles being Sazz's body double for the "funeral".  But would they actually have had a real dead body laying on a pool table?  ick. 

So Imaginary Friend Sazz has now morphed into Dream State Sazz.  Maybe that's progress for Charles?

I'm seeing a bit more opening for Sazz's death to have been faked, but I'm still hung up on the issue I posted about last week...  There is no point for Sazz to have faked being shot, falling to the ground, bleeding, etc. when there was no one to see it.  I am stuck on this, and just don't see a way of them writing around this.  But as I said, I'm willing to be proven wrong.

Kudos to those who guessed something weird was going on with Bev Melon.  I think she's a red herring as far as being the murderer, but other than that, I haven't got a clue.

I like the Dudenoff apartment plot and the "weirdos".  Eye patch guy definitely referred to Dudenoff as a "he", but I don't think it's clear if any of them actually ever met Dudenoff in person.  I don't understand "living like a King in Portugal" when he's only collecting $800/month in rent from these guys (collectively).  Why wouldn't he charge more than that?  Didn't someone say those hams are $1,000+?  He's spending more on the ham than he's collecting in rent.  And then there's the empty run down apartment.  And the pig.  So, yeah, there's something going on there, but again, I haven't a clue at this time as to what.

 

[shapeshifter]

52 minutes ago, chaifan said:

First, where do I get Mabel's incredible invisible portable wardrobe of endless fabulous coats?  Seriously, she has a different (fabulous) coat every episode.  She's squatting at Dudenoff's and hanging at Oliver's.  Where is she keeping all these coats?  (And the rest of her wardrobe/stuff?)

To everyone for whom this season isn't working...  I don't know what you're talking about.  I love this season!  Yes, it's very different from prior seasons, but I really like it better than Season 3 so far. 

Yes! And yes!

52 minutes ago, chaifan said:

Rudd's accent slipped when he chased the trio out of the stunt man's bar, and I thought for a second that the accent was fake for the character, too.  But nope, it came back.

Or the slipped accent could be a hint for the accent-attuned viewers (not me) to catch.

54 minutes ago, chaifan said:

I'm seeing a bit more opening for Sazz's death to have been faked, but I'm still hung up on the issue I posted about last week...  There is no point for Sazz to have faked being shot, falling to the ground, bleeding, etc. when there was no one to see it.  I am stuck on this, and just don't see a way of them writing around this.  But as I said, I'm willing to be proven wrong.

Wild supposition: Sazz was "acting" her death as a sort of ritual process because "Sazz" was going to die and she was going to live with a new identity?
The ritual the stunt men did with Charles hints at this type of OTT faked death.

[Yeah No]

41 minutes ago, chaifan said:

I like the Dudenoff apartment plot and the "weirdos".  Eye patch guy definitely referred to Dudenoff as a "he", but I don't think it's clear if any of them actually ever met Dudenoff in person.  I don't understand "living like a King in Portugal" when he's only collecting $800/month in rent from these guys (collectively).  Why wouldn't he charge more than that?  Didn't someone say those hams are $1,000+?  He's spending more on the ham than he's collecting in rent.  And then there's the empty run down apartment.  And the pig.  So, yeah, there's something going on there, but again, I haven't a clue at this time as to what.

I know I posted something about this above but I think the Westies may be given the break on rent in exchange for keeping quiet on what the truth is with Dudenoff and doing things on their behalf. They might be on salary with them and the cut in rent and expensive ham is part of the deal.

2 hours ago, Affogato said:

Charles thought he was ‘sazz’s person’ and now he realizes …well, that he really didn’t know her al all. For Charles, this is really sad. He honestly doesn’t have many friends. 
This also seems to be true of Oliver and Mabel. It is one reason why they are believable. Lonely people found each other. charles is not the difficult relationship  i think maybe Bev  is, and it is a business relationship.
 

i still expect Jan to show up again.   

Now that we have met the stunt bar crowd, I am wondering if the empty apartment was used for stunt people who needed a place for one reason or another and if Maggie isn’t Dudenoff.  Movies are made from all over the world, so ham would not be a problem. However, why would maggie be supporting this group of people. They aren’t probably family, or stunt people. Why would Maggie not live there and let people stay in her guest room?  There is something going on with the apartment  yes, I think the Westies were luring Howard out  of the apartment. The rent is low at $200 a month under any circumstances. 

It would seem like the show to have the pig be Dudenoff’s legal heir. How would that work?  Dudenoff could have been associated with the investment ham business in Portugal? i also like Howards podcast. However he seems to have dumped the dog Gravey for the pig. 

I still like the way you think! Maggie being Dudenoff? The apartment a place for them to stay? Bev being the "difficult relationship" and it being a business relationship? The pig the legal heir? All interesting ideas, however I don't think the pig could legally be considered the heir to the rent controlled apartments under NYC law. I think they have to be human, LOL. 😉🐖

Yes to Jan showing up again. If Sazz was not murdered there will need to be a murderer around to commit one.

1 hour ago, peeayebee said:

This all made me wonder if Bev could have killed Sazz. Although she apparently lives in LA, she certainly could have been in NY at that time. But right now she seems too obvious a suspect.

I've been thrown off on this show before by suspects I thought were too obvious so I still wonder about Bev. 

I agree with you that Sazz's relationship with anyone (i.e. Bev or Maggie) might have been more than professional.